Fun (?) Fact: It appears that the only state in which female Justices are still referred to as “Madame Justice” is Pennsylvania, or so a Westlaw search suggests.
For a while in the late 1980s, federal district judge William G. Young in the District of Massachusetts referred to “Madame Justice O’Connor,” but that seems to have stopped. This may have been influenced by Massachusetts state court practice of the time, in which “Mme. Justice” was sometimes used to refer to state Justices. Until the late 1980s, New York courts sometimes did the same, as did a few other courts until roughly the same time.
troll_dc2 says:
Did you come across this fun fact in the course of doing research for another article?
October 6, 2009, 4:03 pmMark N. says:
It appears to still be standard usage in Canada, for whatever that’s worth.
October 6, 2009, 4:07 pmalkali says:
Do you mean in written opinions, or in oral presentation?
October 6, 2009, 4:10 pmajk says:
I feel stupid asking this, but what do they get called elsewhere?
October 6, 2009, 4:23 pmJohn Jenkins says:
“Justice x,” is normal, I believe.
October 6, 2009, 4:29 pmsubpatre says:
Justice is already feminine. So does “Madame Justice” work like a double negative and make the term masculine?
October 6, 2009, 4:30 pmMalvolio says:
And if the justice is unmarried, is she called “Mademoiselle Justice”? Because rowwrrr…
October 6, 2009, 4:44 pmChrisIowa says:
You’re not referring to chromosomal structure, I presume?
October 6, 2009, 5:01 pmDave N says:
Interesting, Nancy Pelosi is formally referred to as “Madam” Speaker in transcripts on her website and not “Madame”–though I believe “Madame” is correct.
Had Hillary Clinton been elected President, would we be calling her “Madame President” or something else?
October 6, 2009, 5:16 pmBored Lawyer says:
Had Hillary Clinton been elected President, would we be calling her “Madame President” or something else?
Put my bet on the latter. And something unprintable to boot.
October 6, 2009, 6:00 pmSuperSkeptic says:
“Mister Chief Justice, and may it please the Court”
If this is acceptable, I do not see the problem with Madame. . .
So, why the eradication?
October 6, 2009, 6:05 pmChrisTS says:
Ah. At least it isn’t a post about our PA judges sending kids to boot camp in exchange for money from the camp owner.
October 6, 2009, 6:12 pmBama 1L says:
They taught us that in moot court, too.
I suspect, however, the difference is between second-person address and third-person reference.
October 6, 2009, 6:15 pmChrisTS says:
Sure; what male god would put up with holding those stupid scales forever with no pay?
Zeus: Justitia, this is a good thing to do; you would really be helping us out.
Justitia: Uh, well, if no one else will do it…
October 6, 2009, 6:16 pmBama 1L says:
To make sense of this finding, we have to know when the courts of different states abandoned “Mister Justice” for third-person reference.
October 6, 2009, 6:17 pmRememberRemember says:
The lack of V for Vendetta references saddens me.
October 6, 2009, 6:27 pmJay says:
SuperSkeptic–Yeah, but no one calls any of the other male justices Mr. Justice so-and-so. I agree it’s an open question what would happen if there was a female CJ. I’m pretty sure the Supreme Court dropped the Mr. Justice formulation just before O’Connor arrived, pretty clearly to avoid the issue.
October 6, 2009, 6:55 pmNathanM says:
Only in oral submissions. In writing it’s, e.g., “Smith J.” whether the judge is male or female. When you say the name it would be either Mr. or Madam Justice Smith.
The annoying part is having to figure out whether the judge who decided a case you are referring to is a man or woman before making your submissions, as you usually can’t tell from the reported case.
October 6, 2009, 7:52 pmDNJ says:
In England female High Court judges are referred to as Mrs Justice X (whether or not they are married). Female Court of Appeal judges are referred to as Lady Justice (instead of Lord Justice). However, this is unofficial, since the Judicature Act provides that judges of the Court of Appeal have the style Lord Justice (and makes no gender distinction). Indeed, when Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss (as she then was) became the first female Court of Appeal judge, she was referred to as Lord Justice Butler-Sloss. However, the Lord Chief Justice decided that it was ridiculous that she was referred to as “My Lady, Lord Justice Butler-Sloss,” so he issued a Practice Direction telling counsel to refer to her as Lady Justice Butler-Sloss.
October 6, 2009, 8:56 pmApperception says:
Huh?
October 7, 2009, 1:57 amdir says:
Incidentally, we also still use Mr. Justice in writing.
October 7, 2009, 9:39 amTitus says:
It appears that many commenters do not know that there was, at one time, a different convention for referring to Supreme Court Justices. While we now simply say “Justice Scalia,” there was for most of history an additional layer of formality, by which one would say “Mr. Justice Douglas.” “Madame” would be the equivalent form of address for a woman in such a position. Given the word’s widespread use in other contexts, it’s unclear why the convention as a whole was dropped.
Incidentally, the dictionary lists the first definition for “Madame” and “Madam” as being a form of address. “Madam,” however, more commonly is the term for the headmistress of a brothel, while “Madame” is, it appears, the more conventional spelling for the title.
October 7, 2009, 9:59 amdll111 says:
I believe the Justices dropped it themselves when O’Connor joined the Court.
October 7, 2009, 12:51 pmyankee says:
I don’t see what’s odd about this, unless male Justices are simply “Justice” rather than “Mister Justice.” If the men are “Mister,” the women should be “Madame.” I suppose you could call them “Mrs./Miss Justice” or “Ms. Justice,” but “Madame” sounds more dignified.
October 7, 2009, 12:53 pmyankee says:
But why did they do that? Was there some objection to “Madame Justice”?
October 7, 2009, 12:54 pmBABH says:
Have they also dropped the practice of referring to one another in the style of “My learned Brother Stevens?” To my ear there’s nothing wrong with “Sister O’Connor,” but I don’t see the Justice herself taking kindly to it.
October 7, 2009, 2:01 pmNew Pseudonym says:
It might be Wise to use Senora Justice Sotomayor ;-)
October 7, 2009, 3:31 pmCrunchy Frog says:
I’m rather partial to the British practice of referring to MPs on the other side of the aisle as “The Right Honourable Gentleman” before describing, in detail, how the said RHG would like to have sex with a goat, if he could figure out which end was safer.
October 7, 2009, 4:05 pmVisitor Again says:
I had oral argument before the California Supreme Court a couple of years after Rose Bird became Chief Justice. Although I had been a lawyer 10 years, it was the first time I had ever appeared before a female judge at any level, which shows how far we have come in 40 years.
In prior arguments before that court, I had opened by saying “Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the court.” And I had always addressed male appellate judges, in responding to their questions, as “Mr. Justice Doe.” I thought perhaps I should use “Madame Chief Justice,” but I wasn’t sure.
And so on this occasion, just before argument began, I asked the court clerk, “How should I address the Chief Justice?” He said, “How about Chief Justice Bird?” I said, “Thank you.” He said, “Do you have any problem with that?” I said, “No, not at all.” I think he thought I was some kind of male chauvinist pig when, in fact, I was delighted that women were becoming judges at all levels. I had merely wanted to be sure I addressed her in the preferred form and didn’t offend her.
I’ve noticed that “Mr. Justice Doe” is not used nearly as much these days. Advocates just say “Justice Doe,” a form which fits both male and female justices. Never have I heard “Madame” used in addressing a judge or justice.
October 7, 2009, 7:33 pmRodW says:
Here’s how it works in English Canada:
A superior or appellate court judge can be referred to or addressed as ‘Mr. Justice XY’ or ‘Madam Justice XX’. If you’re a stickler, you’ll refer to a french-speaking member of the Supreme Court of Canada as ‘Madame Justice XX’ rather than ‘Madam Justice XX’. In written argument, there’s nothing wrong with writing out XX J. as Madam Justice XX.
In the last twenty years or so American usage (‘Justice Z’) has become increasingly common, to the extent that the older form now sounds a little affected. Judges of the SCC tend to follow American usage, although this may be just a convenient truncation.
“Justice” and “justices” haven’t caught on to the same extent as nouns rather than as titles. (Really, calling judges ‘justices’ is like calling a group of clergy ‘reverends’, so you should cut it out.)
October 8, 2009, 2:04 am