My previous post on delis reminded me of how disappointed I was in the quality of the Jewish delis in the Boston suburbs when I arrived in college from Queens. Here are two actual conversations, the first at a “kosher-style” deli in Newton on Commonwealth Avenue, the second at the kosher Rubin’s in Brookline. In both cases, you have to imagine that the person I’m conversing with has a Yiddish/Boston accent.
I. Me: Oh, and I’d like a sour pickle.
Old woman behind deli counter, acting surprised: Full sour?
Me, perplexed: Yes, full sour, I guess (I had never heard anyone refer to a sour pickle as “full sour”)
OWBDC: [Yelling across deli to an old man in an apron] Irv, this young man wants a sour pickle.
Irv: [Yelling to me, and sounding very surprised] Full sour?
Me: [Frustrated] Yes, full sour. [The pickle was terrible]
II. Me: I’d like a knish, and my friend would like chicken soup.
Waitress: I’m sorry, we’re out of knishes. And we’re out of chicken soup.
Me: This is the third time I’ve been here over three months, and each time, I’ve ordered a knish, and my friend has ordered chicken soup. I know they’re on the menu, but do you ever have them?
Waitress: No, not really.
[What kind of deli doesn’t have knishes or chicken soup?]
Bruce Boyden says:
II — maybe they only have cheeseburgers and Pepsi.
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October 8, 2009, 5:51 pmRabbi Michael Simon says:
that’s hysterical!
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October 8, 2009, 5:52 pmSkyler says:
I’m not aware of how the make up of the Conspiracy was created, but is there anything you can write about besides Judaism? It’s like one track on the 8-track is on monotone!
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October 8, 2009, 5:58 pmDG says:
I once went to a faux-deli in Fairfax, VA called Chutzpah — sounds authentic, right? I asked for my sandwich to be on challah, which got me a weird look from the waitress who then asked me what that was.
Also, asked me if I wanted mayo, but not mustard.
Blah.
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October 8, 2009, 5:59 pmYoelish says:
To be sure, I’ve had chicken soup at Rubin’s on quite a few occasions. In fact, I don’t ever remember a instance in which they were out of chicken soup.
Now if only you dedicated a post to the long wait-time between when a customer places a order and when the order arrives...
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October 8, 2009, 6:04 pmanonymous says:
DB,
Maybe you should have ordered a “pickle”, and the assumption in a Jewish deli was it was going to be a sour one?
(I always wonder in a good Italian restaurant, when they ask you what kind of dressing you’d like on your salad, do you say, “Italian please” or just “the house dressing”?)
Ah, these cultural nuances that really hang you up the first times around...
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October 8, 2009, 6:05 pmLeo Marvin says:
When I was in Boston (late ‘70s) they didn’t even bother with the knish kabuki. Knishes just weren’t on the menu, and they acted like I was strange for thinking that was strange. I’m guessing by the time you got there they didn’t think they could pull that off with a straight face.
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October 8, 2009, 6:06 pmanonymous says:
(Same thing with ordering an “Italian” sausage sandwich in an Italian place that only sells that kind of sausage... Or are you just supposed to distinguish between “hot” or “mild”?)
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October 8, 2009, 6:07 pmsteve says:
The half sours at Rubin’s are pretty bad. I don’t get half sour pickles in general. Also the random pieces of bread with the pickles leave something to be desired. But I like the brisket.
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October 8, 2009, 6:10 pmLeo Marvin says:
I’m not aware of how the blogosphere was created, but where did you get the idea it was for a purpose other than bloggers writing about whatever the hell they want to?
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October 8, 2009, 6:11 pmDavid Bernstein says:
No, because delis usually serve sours and half-sours. At an authentic NYC deli, they put them out for you in a bowl as appetizers, along with cole slaw. The pickle I wound up getting from the Newton deli didn’t taste like any sour pickle I had before, or have had since.
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October 8, 2009, 6:16 pmanonymous says:
Skyler:
You don’t have to be a Jew to suck on a big pickle. *just sayin*
(Somebody correct me if — culturally — you’re supposed to just be chompin, not sucking them.)
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October 8, 2009, 6:19 pmSkyler says:
Just doing my part in the blogosphere, Leo. I don’t even know why this post is funny. It’s got nothing even remotely to do with the law. I’m not telling anyone what to do, but really, there seems to never be a post by DB that isn’t related to being Jewish. It just seems odd and I was wondering if he even realized it. No need to get all testy about it.
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October 8, 2009, 6:19 pmanonymous says:
No, because delis usually serve sours and half-sours. At an authentic NYC deli, they put them out for you in a bowl as appetizers, along with cole slaw.
Learn something new everyday...
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October 8, 2009, 6:20 pmDavid Bernstein says:
Skyler, you are under the mistaken impression that this is a “law blog.” It’s actually a “blog whatever you want to blog about, but since you’re a law professor naturally many posts will be about law blog.” Rabbi Simon thinks the post is hilarious. You don’t. To each his own. A full refund is forthcoming, just send me your invoice number.
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October 8, 2009, 6:22 pmLeo Marvin says:
Skyler, what does Lochner have to do with being Jewish?
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October 8, 2009, 6:22 pmanonymous says:
The pickle I wound up getting from the Newton deli didn’t taste like any sour pickle I had before, or have had since.
Hmm... Let’s just hope they didn’t have a Jesse Jackson type working in the kitchen, messing with the food.
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October 8, 2009, 6:23 pmLev says:
FASCINATING
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October 8, 2009, 6:28 pmSplunge says:
Prolly the Boston-area delis are disappointed in the quality of their customers, too. Hayseeds come in, fresh off the boat from Noo Yahk or some other godforsaken hole out on the wild frontier, don’t have the first clue about what’s in and what’s not, how things are ordered, et ceter and other traditions of the Hub, and then get all bent out of shape when they’re not understood by their betters. Oy.
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October 8, 2009, 6:28 pmLeo Marvin says:
We’re annoying in all sorts of ways. “Testy” is just one of them.
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October 8, 2009, 6:30 pmJunkYardLawDog says:
I’m feeling culturally deprived. I’ve never previously heard of a sour versus half sour pickle before. How do either of these compare to to an everyday grocery store Vlasik (sp?) dill pickle?
Says the “Dog”
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October 8, 2009, 6:44 pmJono39 says:
Born in Winthrop, Mass. After Mrs. Fredman died (app. 1950) there was nothing worth eating in the Jewish line in Boston. Jack & Marion’s at Coolidge Corner made a stab at it, but it confused mass with reality. Cannot speak for Chicago, L.A. etc but New York was in a class by itself although it is falling fast.
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October 8, 2009, 6:49 pmneurodoc says:
How many years ago did you arrive in the Boston as an auslander from Queens? The venerable(?) Jack and Marions at Coolidge Corner was already gone by then? What about Alan Dershowitz’s venture, Mavens Kosher Court, which I don’t think lasted too long.
Is there a Jewish deli in the Washington, DC area that’s anything special? I think Jewish delis have declined in a great many cities over the course of years.
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October 8, 2009, 6:49 pmAnon314 says:
“What kind of deli doesn’t have knishes or chicken soup?”
A non-Jewish “Jewish” deli, o’course.
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October 8, 2009, 6:51 pmBob says:
When I was in law school at UCLA many years ago, a classmate who had gone to NYU as an undergraduate and driven across country told me that he stopped for lunch one day somewhere in the Midwest and asked the waitress for a pastrami on rye. “OK,” she said, “but I have a couple of questions. First, what’s pastrami? Second, what’s rye?”
Consider yourself lucky to have been in Boston!
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October 8, 2009, 7:20 pmOff Kilter says:
There’s a famous deli in Ann Arbor MI called Zingerman’s. I think it has even had a positive write up in the WSJ a few years back.
In any case, during my medical residency in Ann Arbor, I and the 9 other residents in my class would occasionally go there. About half of us were Jewish. ALL of us RAVED about Zingerman’s except for two residents. BOTH of them were from NYC. :-)
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October 8, 2009, 7:22 pmDilan Esper says:
Next time order a pork chop.
And when the guy replies “are you crazy? We’re a Jewish deli, we don’t have pork chops”, say “well, I exhausted all the logical choices!”.
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October 8, 2009, 7:27 pmMikeS says:
Well, they had a knish. But it was runny. Runnier than you’d like. No, really, very runny.
Oh, darn, the cat ate it.
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October 8, 2009, 7:28 pmTamerlane says:
Back about thirty years ago there was a deli near the corner of Washington and Beacon in Brookline that served a great boiled tongue sandwich. Now you even have trouble finding a hot tongue sandwich in New York. That’s my sine qua non for grading Jewish delis.
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October 8, 2009, 7:33 pmCato The Elder says:
OT, but it must be mentioned.
We have here at the VC: an Anon21; Anon1234; Anon12345; Anon1111; Anon99; Anon314. I am not sure I got them all, those are just the ones I could recall quickly. Not to mention we also have an “anonymous” and an “Anonymous Coward”.
Its hard keeping track of all of these anonymous people — I suggest you guys unleash your creative spirits!
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October 8, 2009, 7:33 pmLe Messurier the Episcopalian says:
Skyler:
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October 8, 2009, 7:37 pmDr. Weevil says:
Could be worse. I was once in a ‘Chinese’ restaurant in New Hampshire that served their bad pseudo-Chinese glop with a stale brown-and-serve roll (no butter). When I asked if I could get rice with whatever it was I’d ordered, the waitress said “You must be from New York City”. I was in fact living in New York at the time, but surely it is not only New Yorkers who expect rice with their Chinese food? I wouldn’t have been surprised if the place hadn’t been located just a few miles off I-95. This was less than 8 years ago. Joseph Epstein once wrote that the only Chinese restaurant in Little Rock, Arkansas served white bread (or was it mashed potatoes?) and gravy with every meal, but that was in the ‘60s.
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October 8, 2009, 7:37 pmThatguy says:
How about this, it serves you right for being in Boston. The red Sox vortex of suck damages food too.
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October 8, 2009, 7:38 pmneurodoc says:
Speaking of adopted names/personas, we know you are not the real Cato the Elder because you never say in conclusion, “Carthago delenda est.”
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October 8, 2009, 7:39 pmMalvolio says:
I was at a deli yesterday where the pastrami sandwich was served with Swiss cheese and bacon. I was literally speechless.
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October 8, 2009, 7:44 pmDr. Weevil says:
The real Cato the Elder would be writing his posts in Archaic Latin, never using a superfluous word, and signing them ‘Cato Maior’ as well as Karthago delenda est. Wait, I meant signing them ‘Marcus Porcius Cato’, since he had no way of knowing that his homonymous great grandson would be famous enough to require the addition of Maior (or Censorius) and Minor (or Uticensis).
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October 8, 2009, 7:46 pmMark N. says:
This fellow seems to have some similar complaints as regards the sour pickles, but in his opinion the availability even in NYC is these days insufficient.
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October 8, 2009, 7:49 pmBT says:
Goyim here, is “challah” pronounced halla, or halley or something similar? If it is, (and I assume that you are referring to a type of bread) it is wonderful. I had it once many years ago. While I can’t speak for delis, Manny’s on Jefferson is one of the last Jewish cafeterias left in Chicago. I like their pastrami and corned beef. Great stuff. Oh and DB you can post as much as you like about Jewish this or that or Isreal this or that. I always learn something and after all it is your blog.
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October 8, 2009, 7:51 pmCato The Elder says:
Ah yes, it was only after using this handle for a couple of months, and having finally attained my black belt in Google-fu, did I learn that there was one before me here on the Conspiracy. However, [insert here] delenda est was still posting frequently at about that time, so to compensate I just aimed to try to ramble more often in the threads he was involved in. Same difference!
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October 8, 2009, 7:52 pmbyomtov says:
what does Lochner have to do with being Jewish?
Lochner? I always thought the discussion was about lockshen. No wonder I didn’t understand.
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October 8, 2009, 7:58 pmGrumpy Old Man says:
This reminds me of the guy in the deli who asks a passing waiter, “Excuse me, can you tell me the time?”
Came the answer, “Not my table!”
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October 8, 2009, 8:08 pmEvilDave says:
Wouldn’t that make you Cato the Younger?
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October 8, 2009, 8:20 pmJoseph Slater says:
(1) At least the first deli server called you a “young man.” Those moments get rarer and more precious as one ages.
(2) I was a fan of Zingerman’s in Ann Arbor (mentioned above). I assume you tried it when you were visiting at Michigan. What did you think?
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October 8, 2009, 8:30 pmDG says:
{I was at a deli yesterday where the pastrami sandwich was served with Swiss cheese and bacon. I was literally speechless.}
Was it any good?
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October 8, 2009, 8:49 pmLongwalker says:
I am not Jewish but I grew up in New York and lived in a mixed neighborhood — Irish, German, Italian, Greek and Jewish. My father disapproved of taking money from neighbors for helping them. But he strongly approved of his children helping the neighbors.
The housewives and their husbands for whom I ran errands, soon realized that, although my father disapproved of my accepting money, he did not care if I accepted a “little taste” of something from a neighbor.
This resulted in two things — a deep knowlege of what was the best of ethnic New York cooking and a new nickname — “Pudgie.”
My culinary horror story occurred when I was in the Army. I was taking Advanced Infantry Training at Ft. Jackson, SC, and my cousin was taking Basic Training there also.
We went on a Sunday pass to Columbia — a nice town. After wandering around for a while, we saw an Italian restaurant. Both being New Yorkers and of Irish extraction, Italian and Jewish foods were “soul foods” in our minds.
To our horror, the “sauce” on our “pasta” was Hunt’s ketchup! Of course, that was in 1956 and I have heard that, since then, there has been a great improvement in what is called “Italian” cooking in the Southland.
One of our Southern relatives, the mother of an uncle-in-law, made many long visits to New York to see her grandchildren. She learned to cook “New York style” and taught her North Carolina friends and relatives how to cook New York staples such as ziti with meatballs and sausages and flanken.
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October 8, 2009, 8:53 pmBen P says:
That would not surprise me, but I can say from experience there are several decent (not incredible, but better than chains) Chinese food restaurants in Little Rock now.
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October 8, 2009, 9:00 pmA. Zarkov says:
DB:
Come to the SF Bay Area and you will really have something to complain about. They have a few pretend Jewish Delis such as Saul’s in Berkeley (which is terrible) and David’s in SF which is marginal. In 1962 Lou Ronson opened a Jewish deli in San Mateo known as The Brothers. It later moved to Burlingame. Lou sold it to the Hou family from Taiwan in 1979 making it an ersatz Jewish deli run by Chinese. I ate there off and on for about 15 years. It was ok, but nothing like real New York City deli. About ten years ago I stopped because it got terrible. I’ve eaten as Jerrys in Westwood a few times, and while better than the Bay Area, it still falls short of old NYC deli.
Operating a Jewish deli is a lot of work and therein lies the fundamental problem. Few people (perhaps no one) want to work that hard anymore for a restaurant. A very long time ago my father owned a restaurant (I don’t know if it was a Jewish deli). He told me he slept there and didn’t have a lock for the front door as it was open all the time.
Based on my experience, the goyim can’t run an authentic Jewish deli, and for the most part neither can Jews younger than 60. Such is the modern world. We just have to live with it.
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October 8, 2009, 9:01 pmDavid Bernstein says:
Put it this way, someone once wrote to the food critic of the Washington Post, and asked, “I live in DC, and I’d like to get some good Jewish deli, what do I do?” She responded, “hop on Amtrak, you could stop in Baltimore, but you’d better off going all the way to NYC.” There is a place in Silver Spring off East West Highway that’s not terrible, Parkway.
BTW, I attribute the decline of the Jewish deli in part to Jews becoming much more cosmopolitan, but also to the growing stringency among the Orthodox regarding Kashrut. The best Jewish delis, IMHO, were kosher. But now few non-Orthodox Jews care about kashrut, and the Orthodox, who could be a core customer group, insist that the place be closed on the Sabbath, Jewish holidays, and have a full-time kashrut supervisor (mashgiach), all of which drastically raise the cost of doing business, and indeed make it impossible to remotely compete price-wise with non-kosher businesses.
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October 8, 2009, 9:13 pmneurodoc says:
Same thing happened to Hoffberg’s, an established Jewish delicatessen on Eastern Avenue in Silver Spring, Maryland. About 30 years ago it was sold to a Chinese owner who continued to operate it as a Jewish deli for awhile, then moved the enterprise to Rockville, where it continued to decline and further morphed until no more. (There is also Parkway, and others have come and gone, like Max’s, Celebrity, Toojay’s, etc.) Lombard Street in Baltimore is a somewhat better bet.
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October 8, 2009, 9:14 pmDavid Bernstein says:
And, fwiw, I lived in Ann Arbor for nine months and was completely underwhelmed by Zingerman’s, which I found to be overpriced, inauthentic, and not that great.
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October 8, 2009, 9:14 pmMartha says:
I am really missing Brent’s deli in the SF valley right about now. Alas, I live 3000 miles away.
My worst deli experience wasn’t the fault of the deli. It happened when I took a job candidate out to lunch. She chose the deli from the nearby restaurants and then was *very* upset that crab cakes weren’t on the menu. (And she was from South Florida, too!)
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October 8, 2009, 9:17 pmA. Zarkov says:
In 2004 I ate at the Carnegie Deli in New York City. The waitress sensed I knew something about deli food and kept telling me “you won’t like that” as I went down the menu. They were actually serving canned soup! It must be the tourists that keep them in business. Can you get good deli even in NYC these days?
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October 8, 2009, 9:22 pmSteve2 says:
Strangely enough, half-sours have been readily available throughout all the southern cities I’ve lived in: Atlanta, Nashville, Norfolk... and I can name you at least one great Jewish Deli in each.
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October 8, 2009, 9:58 pmCocky moon says:
Y’all realize that knishes is Yinglish, not Yiddish.
One knish–zvey knishe.
It also has an alternative meaning...
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October 8, 2009, 9:59 pmR Gould-Saltman says:
Zarkov:
Jerry’s in LA is to a real deli what a place like Claim Jumper is to a real steakhouse. The real delis in LA are Langer’s (for the pastrami) Nate & Al’s, Art’s (“Every Sandwich is a Work of Art”) Brent’s, and MAYBE Canter’s.
BTW, you want to see whether people will still work hard in a restaurant? Look in the back room of a San Gabriel Valley Hong Kong style seafood place at about 11:00 am on a Saturday.
Side note:
I’m told that in about 1931, my father was taken by his parents to a deli in LA, possibly Canter’s, (so this’d have been when he was maybe 6?): ordering from the menu, he asked for spaghetti. He was told by the waitress: “You don’t want spaghetti. You want spaghetti, kid, you should go to a Wop joint!”
Fast forward to about 1999. I am in Canter’s with my son, then 9, and a budding Chowhound. He looks at the menu, and orders “Angel Hair Pasta Pomodoro”. DUBIOUS look from the waitress, followed by “You’re sure?” He finds it, upon its arrival, less than spectacular. My response, of course, was “What she MEANT when she said “You’re sure?” was REALLY ‘You want spaghetti, kid, . . . ‘.”
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October 8, 2009, 10:01 pmJoseph Slater says:
Re Zingermans, I agree that it’s “inauthentic,” in that it isn’t exactly trying to be a traditional NYC Jewish deli — it’s also trying to be an upscale eatery and food store. And it is not cheap. Having said that, I think it’s great. But as the Jews say, chacaun son gout.
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October 8, 2009, 10:05 pmDG says:
{Is there a Jewish deli in the Washington, DC area that’s anything special?}
Parkway is good, but there’s a better place. I almost regret telling people about it. Brooklyn’s Deli, 10048 Darnestown Rd, in Rockville. Little place in a strip mall. Food is incredible — corn beef is amazing and breakfast stuff is good too (Pancakes, etc). There are supposed to be opening up another one in Potomac.
Bagel City in Rockville has good bagels, but the food is blah.
If you are highly motivated go to Attman’s in Baltimore. Ben-Ash in Manhattan is good. Stage and Carnagie are for tourists.
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October 8, 2009, 10:06 pmbyomtov says:
Atlanta, Nashville, Norfolk… and I can name you at least one great Jewish Deli in each.
I don’t know about Atlanta and Norfolk, but I know Nashville very well. And you can’t name a great Jewish deli there. Stick to “meat and threes” for lunch. I recommend the Elliston Place Soda Shop.
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October 8, 2009, 10:15 pmDS says:
Royal in Germantown is pretty good and it’s about the only decent Jewish deli I’ve had in DC.
Joseph Slater: couldn’t agree with you more. Of course pretentious undergrad New Yorkers would always complain about its inauthenticity, but Zingerman’s markets itself as “American” deli. Judging by the commercial and critical reaction to their products, I would say DB is in a small minority claiming to be underwhelmed by Zing’s food.
Good post though. I’m gonna check out volokh more often for DC food options...
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October 8, 2009, 10:38 pmJoe says:
Woah, Bernstein is Jewish?
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October 8, 2009, 10:57 pmAlex Korotkin says:
For my money, Katz in NYC and Second Avenue Deli (before the move), I haven’t been there after they moved. Western NY, unfortunately, is kosher deli deprived. There used to be Mastman’s in Buffalo, but it closed years ago. In Rochester, there is no kosher or jewish style deli worth noting.
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October 8, 2009, 11:04 pmDavid Bernstein says:
Well, the food is good. But compared to how Ann Arborites rave about it, and compared to the prices (especially given that this is small city Michigan, not, say, London), feh! $12.50 for a sandwich in Ann Arbor?
As for authenticity, I lost count of how many people told us what a “great Jewish deli” Ann Arbor has. Not to mention that their sandwiches come in “nosher” and “fresser” sizes.
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October 8, 2009, 11:06 pmtired of blogs says:
I was subjected to Ann Arborites raving about Zingerman’s for years before I finally made my way there. It’s okay, but I’d put it on the same level as Jerry’s in Westwood (and other locations in L.A....there are at least four that I know of). But Zingerman’s is very expensive and a bit of a cult. But, then, Ann Arbor residents are a bit of a cult. Worse than Mac fans, really.
A better deli not terribly far from Ann Arbor is Embers in Bloomfield. Still not great, but much more reasonably priced and infinitely less in-your-face about its alleged awesomeness.
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October 8, 2009, 11:07 pmtraveler496 says:
Full sour pickles, eh?
I used to make hypotheses about why people really ate pickles which, while bizarre, seemed less bizarre to me than the possibility that people ate pickles for taste.
I now believe that people eat pickles for taste. Not that this seems any less bizarre than before; it’s just that over time, I eliminated the competing hypotheses.
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October 8, 2009, 11:08 pmA. Zarkov says:
I didn’t mean to suggest that Jerry’s is in any way representative of LA delis. I went there because I had business in Westwood, and these days I don’t like driving around LA because of the traffic.
I know LA has some good deli. Once a long time ago, before I moved to California, I was in a LA Jewish deli and I quizzed the owner about his pastrami. He was very good natured and brought me a pile (almost a meal) as a sample. I tasted it, and it was good, so I ordered a pastrami sandwich which I enjoyed immensely. The owner clearly cared about his food and his customers.
I will try your suggestions, but I don’t get to LA much these days. California is in decline– at this point only family keeps me here. I regularly meet people who tell me they are moving out.
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October 8, 2009, 11:22 pmSeamus says:
This sounds a bit like a cheese shop that is uncontaminated by cheese.
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October 8, 2009, 11:26 pmRabbi Michael Simon says:
“BTW, I attribute the decline of the Jewish deli in part to Jews becoming much more cosmopolitan, but also to the growing stringency among the Orthodox regarding Kashrut. The best Jewish delis, IMHO, were kosher. But now few non-Orthodox Jews care about kashrut, and the Orthodox, who could be a core customer group, insist that the place be closed on the Sabbath, Jewish holidays, and have a full-time kashrut supervisor (mashgiach), all of which drastically raise the cost of doing business, and indeed make it impossible to remotely compete price-wise with non-kosher businesses”
David, I agree with you. That is entirely correct. Fortunately here in Florida we have Bens Deli which is also in New York
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October 8, 2009, 11:29 pmSeamus says:
Damn. Mike S at 7:28 pm beat me to it.
(That’s what I get for thinking that a quick search for “Monty Python” and “cheese shop” was all I needed to do.)
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October 8, 2009, 11:30 pmMikeS says:
Poke poke.
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October 8, 2009, 11:31 pmLeo Marvin says:
A. Zarkov,
The Carnegie is a combination of tourist attraction and some of the best deli anywhere. At least it was until the second of the two major founders died recently. After that I can’t say.
Here are some thoughts on the topic generally, and the Carnegie in particular, by someone you should at least find politically congenial.
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October 8, 2009, 11:34 pmSeamus says:
Dude, you’re the only one I see getting anything like testy. Everybody else seems to be enjoying the discussion.
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October 8, 2009, 11:39 pmSeamus says:
According to Leo Rosten’s “The Joy of Yiddish”: “Some American Jews pronounce challa “holly,” the younger ones not being able to manage the uvular kh, the rest thinking “holly” more genteel, more Americanized. This is deplorable.”
(The correct pronunciation, according to Rosten, is “KHAHL–leh, with the rattling kh. Rhyme with ‘doll a.’”)
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October 8, 2009, 11:44 pmajk says:
Just like the thin-crust pizza and bagels in Chicago, Manny’s is a disgrace compared to the New York counterpart.
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October 8, 2009, 11:55 pmAk Mike says:
And while we’re doing the language stuff, “goyim” is plural, like cherubim. If there’s just one of you, you’re a goy, BT.
BTW, respectfully disagree with Prof. Bernstein and the good rabbi. I think the disappearance of the delicatessen is simply due to the absorption of American Jews into general American culture. Food in the deli was a kosher version of Eastern European food generally — some pretty good, some not quite so great (like pickled herring). The great grandchildren of the immigrants are just not very interested in that stuff.
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October 9, 2009, 12:09 amJasonF says:
Sez you. I’ve seen a lot of crazy comments on this blog over the years, but this one takes the cake.
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October 9, 2009, 12:16 amUbertrout says:
I just wanted to say that Prof. Bernstein is spot-on about the decline in delis being in part due to increasing stringency of the religious Jews who were once a key constituency (and perhaps the only group that makes a lot of “Jewish” food at home on a regular basis). In a world where orthodox Jews won’t go to Second Avenue Deli, they have to rely entirely on the nostalgia and tourist crowds.
As an aside, anyone know a good place in DC for typically “Jewish” NY baked goods (such as black and whites)?
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October 9, 2009, 1:42 amBill Poser says:
I suspect that the decline of the Jewish deli is due to the fact that a large percentage of us have moved up to Chinese as our ethnic cuisine.
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October 9, 2009, 2:13 amGrumpy Old Man says:
Classic image here.
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October 9, 2009, 2:14 amneurodoc says:
Why would you be reluctant to tell others, since good delis need to be encouraged? As for Bagel City, I can’t say anything about their food one way or the other, since I stick strictly to their bagels, which to my taste are superior to everyone else’s and are the only ones I care to eat.
Attman’s on so-called “Corned Beef row” (Lombard Street in Baltimore) along with Lenny’s (formerly Jack’s) and the one in between whose name doesn’t come to me at the moment but has as good corned beef for less money are OK, probably about on par with Parkway in Silver Spring. The Washington Jewish Week just pronounced Ize’s on Rockville Pike as the best deli around based on completely unreliable polling (I strongly suspect ballot-box stuffing, and was disgusted by their proclamation of the “best rabbi” on the basis of the same polling), but I only stuck my head in the door once to see what it was, so can’t say anything about it except that it doesn’t look much different from an ordinary sandwich shop.
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October 9, 2009, 6:20 amneurodoc says:
Yes, this “growing stringency” is something I’ve heard about and been puzzled by. Our forebears didn’t have it right as to what was and wasn’t kosher? Why more stringent (“glat”) now than before, a case of outdoing or at least matching the neighbors in observance/piety? I’m told that in the modern Orthodox community, especially in NYC, there has been a move over time toward greater conformity in dress over time, with white shirt over black slacks practically a uniform. Same sort of phenomenon as “growing stringency” with respect to kashrut?
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October 9, 2009, 6:37 amA. Zarkov says:
The last time I ate at Carnegie was 2004. I can’t remember what I had, but I remember being disappointed. Matzah ball soup from a can? How could they?
I still enjoy eating in the Jewish dairy restaurants in New York, and I have not seen them anywhere else except perhaps Miami beach.
Finally from your link
That’s consistent with my experience. One thing that really bugs me about restaurants in the Bay Area: they run out of food. I once had a restaurant tell me they were out of bread! I told the waitress: “You see that Safeway over there (about 100 feet away), go buy some bread!” Compared to NYC the restaurant staff here are just plain lazy.
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October 9, 2009, 7:52 amBT says:
Oops!!! Thanks for the correction Ak Mike.
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October 9, 2009, 8:06 amJoseph Slater says:
As to Zingermans, DB is obviously entitled to his opinion, and I stipulated it’s not cheap. But being a law-and-econ libertarian free-market kind of guy, I assume DB would stipulate that the market has spoken about Zingermans and has enthusiastically endorsed it. They have expanded significantly since my time in AA in the mid-1980s.
Of course success need not equal “good” in the eyes of a given individual. But reading through this thread, one might conclude that one could count the number of Jewish delis widely considered “good” on the fingers of one hand.
Finally, I might be biased about Zingermans because when I was in law school, a woman I was dating (who now is my wife) worked there and got an employee discount for food there. Needless to say, we took advantage.
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October 9, 2009, 8:16 amwhit says:
you can’t find good deli in seattle, at least i haven’t. among other items, i learned to make sour pickles on my own. it’s the easiest thing to do, and i buy bulk pickling cucumbers 20 lbs at a time.
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October 9, 2009, 9:27 amanonymous says:
Full sours or half sours whit? You didn’t specify.
;’)
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October 9, 2009, 9:37 amwhit says:
nice one.
actually, the only difference in full sours vs half sour is how long you brine them at room temp.
take them earlier and they are half sour.
later, and they are sour
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October 9, 2009, 10:25 amanonymous says:
Thx whit.
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October 9, 2009, 10:48 amstash says:
AJK:
I’ve lived in New York and Chicago and you can get a far better thin-crust pizza in Chicago, than you can get pan/deep-dish or stuffed pizza in New York. For the most part these do not even exist, and where they do, it is simply awful (and generally called something like “Sicilian Pizza” that is a mere parody of real Chicago pizza). In short, there is quite palatable thin-crust in Chicago, but no decent Chicago pizza in New York.
On bagels, there are/were a couple places like New York Bagel & Bialy on Dempster in Skokie. I used to pick up my deli-wares at Kaufmans, a few blocks away, but I would ignore the attached bakery and go to NYB&B. Personally, I have always been a bialy guy, though I certainly enjoy a good bagel as well.
Everybody is talking as if a deli is necessarily a restaurant, but growing up in Chicago, they were usually local neighborhood stores. But like the corner drugstore, they have simply disappeared. When I was kid, starting at 9 or 10,I used to be sent around the corner to a small storefront to pick up corned beef, herring and fresh rye bread for Sunday brunch. I didn’t even have to cross a street. Not half a block away from that was a deli-restaurant that was no good, though they both seemed to thrive at the time. Both died long ago.
I am not sure that the disappearance of the deli can be blamed entirely on “assimilation” as much as the deli-counter at super-markets. Heck, the big Jewel store on Howard in Evanston has a separate kosher deli counter (and Kosher Chinese take-out). It is across the street from the West Rogers Park neighborhood in Chicago and its existence surely squeezes out potential independent delis that this large orthodox concentration might otherwise generate.
When my mother did the grocery shopping, she used to go to three or four stores. Now one-stop shop is the norm. You don’t go to the butcher’s, the bakery, the fruit stand, the deli and the gourmet/specialty store. Every place tries to be all these things.
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October 9, 2009, 12:03 pmarbitraryaardvark says:
I don’t know whether Lockner was Jewish (doesn’t sound Italian), but Lockner was a case about small businesses owned and run by immigrant families in competition with larger Anglo-owned union shops.
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October 9, 2009, 2:43 pmRAZ says:
If you want a good deli experience, move to Manhattan, Brooklyn, Nassau County or anywhere in Jersey that has a local orthodox synagouge. Otherwise, don’t complain, it just ain’t there anymore.
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October 9, 2009, 3:01 pmRAZ says:
If your Ben’s is the same Ben’s as on Long Island and around New York City, then you aren’t so fortunate to have a Bens around. They are to deli what McDonald’s was to hamburgers around 60 years ago.
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October 9, 2009, 3:04 pmbb says:
Regarding DC area Jewish Delis...
Not a Jewish deli, but Max’s out in Wheaton does have fantastic schawarma and falafel. Bar none the best in the area.
bb
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October 9, 2009, 4:33 pmCRW says:
The New York Times recently ran a piece about the disappearance of the Jewish deli:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/dining/07deli.html
I was in Manhattan last year and I was surprised at the difficulty I had finding a good Jewish deli.
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October 9, 2009, 8:15 pmSteve2 says:
Bymotov, did Noshville close down? And if you’re going to eat on Elliston, why would you go to the Soda Shop instead of Rotier’s?
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October 9, 2009, 8:43 pmDavid Chesler says:
Professor: Joan & Ed’s, in Natick. I took my mother, a Washington Heights girl, and she approved. If that doesn’t do it, just keep heading west until you get to Rein’s. (I thought it was interesting that I was eating tongue and stuffed derma, while my young companion was doing the Annie Hall thing, except with ham.)
Maven’s was poorly considered, but a lot of it was that problem, if they are closed on Friday nights and Saturdays they lose a lot of business, but if they’re not closed on the sabbath they lose a core constituency.
What there really is a shortage of is not-terribly-scrupulously-observant Jews. Most are assimilated, the rest are more strictly observant. Out of New York folks don’t even understand the concept of non-practicing Orthodox. (No that’s not the same as Reform — when I do it, it’s still a sin.)
On the other hand I’m seeing a woman of gentile descent who has picked up a fair amount of yiddishkeit from a lifetime of living in New York. Her Friday night challah comes from Zaro’s, mine comes from Panera.
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October 9, 2009, 9:18 pmDavid 89899 says:
Is Harold’s in Knoxville still open? That was good, cheap deli food in the heart of Appalachia.
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October 9, 2009, 10:08 pmR Gould-Saltman says:
. . . and a question that’s buggin’ me,for the mayvens out there, prompted by the re-opening of LA’s (really bizzare) “Scottish/Jewish” restaurant “Gorbals” (featuring such things as “Gefilte Fish [battered and fried] and Chips”, and bacon-wrapped matzoh balls)
Is kishke/stuffed derma basically Jewish haggis?
R Gould-Saltman (my mother’s maiden name was McFarlin)
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October 10, 2009, 12:35 amAJ says:
It’s all about supply and demand...
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October 10, 2009, 11:42 amTCO says:
Wow...you actually allowed comments here! The intellectual bravery! You mensch, you.
P.s. This is where I used to get pickles: http://www.chickandruths.com/dellyhistory.html Seemed fine at the time...
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October 10, 2009, 2:12 pmneurodoc says:
If you’re going to go snarky, please make it at least semi-intelligent snark.
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October 10, 2009, 6:00 pmreadery says:
Well,
To the folks escaping poverty in Europe, tongue and similar bits were all they could afford — the rich people got the good meat.
To their children and grandchildren, it was a reminder of home and an expensive delicacy.
But at some point, the great-grandchildren, grown affluent, are going to start behaving just like their counterparts in the old country.
Let the poor folks eat the tongue and similar bits; we can afford better.
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October 11, 2009, 9:44 pmSteve says:
While good Jewish food may be impossible to come by in Seattle, Costco does carry 2 pound tubs of Whitefish Salad, by way of Brooklyn. And it is a mere $8. Bagels, though... sigh.
A corned beef aside: this actually isn’t difficult to make. You can use a store-bought variety (flat cut, please!) and make it in a pressure cooker. Takes about an hour. Very tender, and quite lean.
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October 11, 2009, 11:53 pm