A corned beef aside: this actually isn’t difficult to make. You can use a store-bought variety (flat cut, please!) and make it in a pressure cooker. Takes about an hour. Very tender, and quite lean.

To the folks escaping poverty in Europe, tongue and similar bits were all they could afford — the rich people got the good meat.

To their children and grandchildren, it was a reminder of home and an expensive delicacy.

But at some point, the great-grandchildren, grown affluent, are going to start behaving just like their counterparts in the old country.

Let the poor folks eat the tongue and similar bits; we can afford better.

TCO: Wow…you actually allowed comments here! The intellectual bravery! You mensch, you.P.s. This is where I used to get pickles: http://www.chickandruths.com/dellyhistory.html Seemed fine at the time…

If you’re going to go snarky, please make it at least semi-intelligent snark.

P.s. This is where I used to get pickles: http://www.chickandruths.com/dellyhistory.html Seemed fine at the time…

Is kishke/stuffed derma basically Jewish haggis?

R Gould-Saltman (my mother’s maiden name was McFarlin)

Maven’s was poorly considered, but a lot of it was that problem, if they are closed on Friday nights and Saturdays they lose a lot of business, but if they’re not closed on the sabbath they lose a core constituency.

What there really is a shortage of is not-terribly-scrupulously-observant Jews. Most are assimilated, the rest are more strictly observant. Out of New York folks don’t even understand the concept of non-practicing Orthodox. (No that’s not the same as Reform — when I do it, it’s still a sin.)

On the other hand I’m seeing a woman of gentile descent who has picked up a fair amount of yiddishkeit from a lifetime of living in New York. Her Friday night challah comes from Zaro’s, mine comes from Panera.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/dining/07deli.html

I was in Manhattan last year and I was surprised at the difficulty I had finding a good Jewish deli.

Not a Jewish deli, but Max’s out in Wheaton does have fantastic schawarma and falafel. Bar none the best in the area.

bb

Rabbi Michael Simon: “BTW, I attribute the decline of the Jewish deli in part to Jews becoming much more cosmopolitan, but also to the growing stringency among the Orthodox regarding Kashrut. The best Jewish delis, IMHO, were kosher. But now few non-Orthodox Jews care about kashrut, and the Orthodox, who could be a core customer group, insist that the place be closed on the Sabbath, Jewish holidays, and have a full-time kashrut supervisor (mashgiach), all of which drastically raise the cost of doing business, and indeed make it impossible to remotely compete price-wise with non-kosher businesses”David, I agree with you. That is entirely correct. Fortunately here in Florida we have Bens Deli which is also in New York

If your Ben’s is the same Ben’s as on Long Island and around New York City, then you aren’t so fortunate to have a Bens around. They are to deli what McDonald’s was to hamburgers around 60 years ago.

I’ve lived in New York and Chicago and you can get a far better thin-crust pizza in Chicago, than you can get pan/deep-dish or stuffed pizza in New York. For the most part these do not even exist, and where they do, it is simply awful (and generally called something like “Sicilian Pizza” that is a mere parody of real Chicago pizza). In short, there is quite palatable thin-crust in Chicago, but no decent Chicago pizza in New York.

On bagels, there are/were a couple places like New York Bagel & Bialy on Dempster in Skokie. I used to pick up my deli-wares at Kaufmans, a few blocks away, but I would ignore the attached bakery and go to NYB&B. Personally, I have always been a bialy guy, though I certainly enjoy a good bagel as well.

Everybody is talking as if a deli is necessarily a restaurant, but growing up in Chicago, they were usually local neighborhood stores. But like the corner drugstore, they have simply disappeared. When I was kid, starting at 9 or 10,I used to be sent around the corner to a small storefront to pick up corned beef, herring and fresh rye bread for Sunday brunch. I didn’t even have to cross a street. Not half a block away from that was a deli-restaurant that was no good, though they both seemed to thrive at the time. Both died long ago.

I am not sure that the disappearance of the deli can be blamed entirely on “assimilation” as much as the deli-counter at super-markets. Heck, the big Jewel store on Howard in Evanston has a separate kosher deli counter (and Kosher Chinese take-out). It is across the street from the West Rogers Park neighborhood in Chicago and its existence surely squeezes out potential independent delis that this large orthodox concentration might otherwise generate.

When my mother did the grocery shopping, she used to go to three or four stores. Now one-stop shop is the norm. You don’t go to the butcher’s, the bakery, the fruit stand, the deli and the gourmet/specialty store. Every place tries to be all these things.

actually, the only difference in full sours vs half sour is how long you brine them at room temp.

take them earlier and they are half sour.

later, and they are sour

Of course success need not equal “good” in the eyes of a given individual. But reading through this thread, one might conclude that one could count the number of Jewish delis widely considered “good” on the fingers of one hand.

Finally, I might be biased about Zingermans because when I was in law school, a woman I was dating (who now is my wife) worked there and got an employee discount for food there. Needless to say, we took advantage.

Ak Mike says:
And while we’re doing the language stuff, “goyim” is plural, like cherubim. If there’s just one of you, you’re a goy, BT.

Oops!!! Thanks for the correction Ak Mike.

Leo Marvin: A. Zarkov,
The Carnegie is a combination of tourist attraction and some of the best deli anywhere.At least it was until the second of the two major founders died recently.After that I can’t say.

The last time I ate at Carnegie was 2004. I can’t remember what I had, but I remember being disappointed. Matzah ball soup from a can? How could they?

I still enjoy eating in the Jewish dairy restaurants in New York, and I have not seen them anywhere else except perhaps Miami beach.

Finally from your link

”There’s not a decent deli in Los Angeles,” said Marilyn Levine, the owner of a direct-mail company who was born in the Bronx and has lived in Los Angeles since 1940. ”Something happens to people’s taste buds when they pass over the Continental Divide.”

That’s consistent with my experience. One thing that really bugs me about restaurants in the Bay Area: they run out of food. I once had a restaurant tell me they were out of bread! I told the waitress: “You see that Safeway over there (about 100 feet away), go buy some bread!” Compared to NYC the restaurant staff here are just plain lazy.

David Bernstein:BTW, I attribute the decline of the Jewish deli in part to Jews becoming much more cosmopolitan, but also to the growing stringency among the Orthodox regarding Kashrut. The best Jewish delis, IMHO, were kosher. But now few non-Orthodox Jews care about kashrut, and the Orthodox, who could be a core customer group, insist that the place be closed on the Sabbath, Jewish holidays, and have a full-time kashrut supervisor (mashgiach), all of which drastically raise the cost of doing business, and indeed make it impossible to remotely compete price-wise with non-kosher businesses.

Yes, this “growing stringency” is something I’ve heard about and been puzzled by. Our forebears didn’t have it right as to what was and wasn’t kosher? Why more stringent (“glat”) now than before, a case of outdoing or at least matching the neighbors in observance/piety? I’m told that in the modern Orthodox community, especially in NYC, there has been a move over time toward greater conformity in dress over time, with white shirt over black slacks practically a uniform. Same sort of phenomenon as “growing stringency” with respect to kashrut?

DG: {Is there a Jewish deli in the Washington, DC area that’s anything special?}Parkway is good, but there’s a better place. I almost regret telling people about it. Brooklyn’s Deli, 10048 Darnestown Rd, in Rockville. Little place in a strip mall. Food is incredible – corn beef is amazing and breakfast stuff is good too (Pancakes, etc). There are supposed to be opening up another one in Potomac. Bagel City in Rockville has good bagels, but the food is blah. If you are highly motivated go to Attman’s in Baltimore. Ben-Ash in Manhattan is good. Stage and Carnagie are for tourists.

Why would you be reluctant to tell others, since good delis need to be encouraged? As for Bagel City, I can’t say anything about their food one way or the other, since I stick strictly to their bagels, which to my taste are superior to everyone else’s and are the only ones I care to eat.

Attman’s on so-called “Corned Beef row” (Lombard Street in Baltimore) along with Lenny’s (formerly Jack’s) and the one in between whose name doesn’t come to me at the moment but has as good corned beef for less money are OK, probably about on par with Parkway in Silver Spring. The Washington Jewish Week just pronounced Ize’s on Rockville Pike as the best deli around based on completely unreliable polling (I strongly suspect ballot-box stuffing, and was disgusted by their proclamation of the “best rabbi” on the basis of the same polling), but I only stuck my head in the door once to see what it was, so can’t say anything about it except that it doesn’t look much different from an ordinary sandwich shop.

As an aside, anyone know a good place in DC for typically “Jewish” NY baked goods (such as black and whites)?

ajk: Just like the thin-crust pizza and bagels in Chicago, Manny’s is a disgrace compared to the New York counterpart.

Sez you. I’ve seen a lot of crazy comments on this blog over the years, but this one takes the cake.

BTW, respectfully disagree with Prof. Bernstein and the good rabbi. I think the disappearance of the delicatessen is simply due to the absorption of American Jews into general American culture. Food in the deli was a kosher version of Eastern European food generally – some pretty good, some not quite so great (like pickled herring). The great grandchildren of the immigrants are just not very interested in that stuff.

While I can’t speak for delis, Manny’s on Jefferson is one of the last Jewish cafeterias left in Chicago.

Just like the thin-crust pizza and bagels in Chicago, Manny’s is a disgrace compared to the New York counterpart.

Goyim here, is “challah” pronounced halla, or halley or something similar?

According to Leo Rosten’s “The Joy of Yiddish”: “Some American Jews pronounce challa “holly,” the younger ones not being able to manage the uvular kh, the rest thinking “holly” more genteel, more Americanized. This is deplorable.”

(The correct pronunciation, according to Rosten, is “KHAHL-leh, with the rattling kh. Rhyme with ‘doll a.’”)

Just doing my part in the blogosphere, Leo. I don’t even know why this post is funny. It’s got nothing even remotely to do with the law. I’m not telling anyone what to do, but really, there seems to never be a post by DB that isn’t related to being Jewish. It just seems odd and I was wondering if he even realized it. No need to get all testy about it.

Dude, you’re the only one I see getting anything like testy. Everybody else seems to be enjoying the discussion.

The Carnegie is a combination of tourist attraction and some of the best deli anywhere. At least it was until the second of the two major founders died recently. After that I can’t say.

Here are some thoughts on the topic generally, and the Carnegie in particular, by someone you should at least find politically congenial.

This sounds a bit like a cheese shop that is uncontaminated by cheese.
Seamus

Poke poke.

(That’s what I get for thinking that a quick search for “Monty Python” and “cheese shop” was all I needed to do.)