wolfefan: Since you are familiar with Paul Madison, would you mind de-lurking again for a moment to tell me who he is? What is his background, what is the source of his expertise? I’ve heard that he is a former research fellow of some sort, but never have been able to find out where or when.

He is a retired historian with the LOC. His original blog had a bio but when the guy who runs Immigration New Daily volunteered to provide him with a better blogging platform didn’t include it.

Those who attack Madison the retired person do so because they want to divert attention from his writings.

David Nieporent: Perhaps while lurking, you happened to miss this thread where Madison’s serial fabrications were addressed.

That thread where you made an absolute fool of yourself by not having any idea of what you were saying? Not a very good way to destroy the messenger.

David Nieporent: Except when he says things like “Bingham showed no intention of making the entire first eight amendments applicable between a State and its own citizens,” despite the fact that (FWIW) Bingham explicitly said that this was the point of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Only problem for you is Madison proves it. And no, Bingham did not explicitly say the point was to make the eight amendments a limitation of the states, only the denial of due process.

Keep trying to kill the messenger eh?

2. I concur with DMN’s critique of P. Madison. If it was noon, and P.M. told me that the sun was out, I would check to see if there was an eclipse.

Since you are familiar with Paul Madison, would you mind de-lurking again for a moment to tell me who he is? What is his background, what is the source of his expertise? I’ve heard that he is a former research fellow of some sort, but never have been able to find out where or when. Someone who posts here who appreciates Madison’s work says he is a former Supreme Court Archivist with the Library of Congress, but that doesn’t seem to be verifiable either. Training, education and the like are not dispositive for me in these things, but knowing more about who someone is and where they are coming from is always helpful in evaluating their arguments.

Thanks in advance for your help!

I will now go back to lurking.

Perhaps while lurking, you happened to miss this thread where Madison’s serial fabrications were addressed.

What Madison says of the constitution is generally in the words of those who wrote it with very little Supreme Court obfuscation.

Except when he says things like “Bingham showed no intention of making the entire first eight amendments applicable between a State and its own citizens,” despite the fact that (FWIW) Bingham explicitly said that this was the point of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Can someone remind me why “incorporation” of, e.g., the second, fourth, and sixth amendments is necessary? Unlike the first amendment, they don’t simply limit what laws Congress can pass. Rather, they state rights that people possess. Since the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, why wouldn’t the states be required to honor those rights?

The short answer is that the Supreme Court held that the BoR did NOT apply to the states in Barron v. Baltimore (1833).

David Nieporent: See: PA Madison is a liar and a fraud. He fabricates quotes, and there’s no evidence that his claimed “credentials” exist. Nothing he says about the constitution is true, except by accident.

That is immature and in poor taste. I am familiar with Paul Madison and can say he is neither a liar or ever fabricated quotes. He provides citations in the noted link for others to determine whether he might be fabricating quotes as you assert.

What Madison says of the constitution is generally in the words of those who wrote it with very little Supreme Court obfuscation.

I will now go back to lurking.

J. Aldridge: Interesting the framers of the 14th defined “due process” as proceedings in the administration of justice and the court defines it as something entirely different!See: Misunderstanding the Fourteenth Amendment and the Incorporation Debacle

See: PA Madison is a liar and a fraud. He fabricates quotes, and there’s no evidence that his claimed “credentials” exist. Nothing he says about the constitution is true, except by accident.

As to “framers,” it is generally tedious but it can be said again, that there were various sentiments expressed by the “framers” and “ratifiers” of the 14A. This included a broad understanding of “due process” to include various substantive restraints as suggested by the dissents in the Slaughterhouse Cases (particularly Bradley). Anti-slavery thought also expressed this sentiment in some quarters.

Likewise, there was a growing sentiment that due process included an anti-caste/anti-class legislation component. For all of this, see e.g., here with citations including those that do reference the BOR as “privileges or immunities of national citizenship.”

See: Misunderstanding the Fourteenth Amendment and the Incorporation Debacle