And that the bishop can voice his admiration of terrorists even in an abstract way, which you excuse with sophistry, is even more of a disgrace. A pox on you and your immoral, unethical church.

Don’t discriminate against me and ask for civility in return. It’s like a slaveowner telling slaves that they are being impolite. You are the problem. You are asking the entire nation to be intolerant solely for your religious and personal comfort. You tell me that I am risking hell. I spit in the eye of a tyrannical god who would make gay people and then tell them that they are not free to act on it because it’s intrinsically disordered. That is not a just and wise god. That is the action of a crazed tyrant.

So do you think my rejection of your crazy, terrible ruler god Satanic? If so, Good. Gay people should not be forced to live under Catholic, Muslim, Baptist or any other church’s authoritarianism and intolerance and domination, particularly not in the U.S. and eventually not in the entire world. We demand our rights and we will eventually win them. And the U.S. will be more godly, not less, because of that.

Yes, IF. But you actually did fall in love with your wife, no? At least your religion allows you to do that. But your religion says if I meet a guy and we fall in love, that’s somehow evil and Satanic. Oddly enough, even that is okay with your church, as the only thing that is prohibited is actually expressing our love sexually.

I would have hoped that with all the gay people you know, you would realize that they are born that way, and had no choice over whom they are attracted to. And if we are born that way, surely that is God’s plan for us.

I understand your point about churches, but the fact remains that gays have little interest in churches that say they are condemned.

Randy: Perhaps you can’t understand it, or don’t know any gays or lesbians, or whatever. I hope someday that you do.

As it happens, I had a pretty good gay friend who died of AIDS, I have a sibling who’s gay, and I work daily with gay people whom I like very much. I also know and like people who have committed adultery or fornication, have had abortions, have stolen things, have lied, and have done lots of other things. I’ve done some of those myself. We’re all sinners.

I’m sure that if I fell desperately in love with someone who isn’t my wife, I would feel much the same way about the Church’s teachings on divorce and adultery that you feel about its teaching on gays. I would probably resent being told that every time I caressed my love I was engaging in something sinful. But as a Catholic, I’d have to stop. Or cease being Catholic.

Randy: If you want to drive gay people away from God and religion, telling them they are hell bound is really the very best way to do it.

There’s no point in calling people to God by changing His message. First, of course, teaching something that God disapproves of would be a bad thing. Second, it’s a bad idea even from a pragmatic standpoint. Lots of religions have tried being “big tents.” The best example are the Unitarian Universalists — you can quite literally believe anything you like and still be a member in good standing. But take a look at what’s happening to them. All of the I’m-okay-you’re-okay religions, like the liberal Protestant denominations, are dying. Between 1960 and 2002 the Presbyterians are down 21%, Methodists are down 24%, Church of Christ down 36%, Episcopalians down 33%. Meanwhile the Roman Catholic Church is up 57%.

Do you know there’s a there’s an American Catholic Church which actually shares the Apostolic Succession but doesn’t follow the Pope and does away with all the unpleasant parts of Catholicism — gay marriage, divorce, priestly marriage, abortion etc., are all okay. Turns out hardly anybody wants to join it. Yet those outside the Church continue to argue that it would gain more adherants if it changed its beliefs to be just like the Episcopalians.

It was more like– I know something about this particular issue, think it’s BS, but still know enough to realize that your statement would offend believers.

But I hope that you do understand the frustration that many of us gays have. All our lives we are told we are ‘going to hell’ just for being who we are, or just because we happen to love a person of the same sex. Perhaps you can’t understand it, or don’t know any gays or lesbians, or whatever. I hope someday that you do. The amount of damage that this sort of thinking has had on gay people has been incalculable, which is exactly why so many gay people are find any religion so suspect. If you want to drive gay people away from God and religion, telling them they are hell bound is really the very best way to do it.

Well, that and fighting every gay rights initiative in the name of religion. That pretty much will do it. And it’s also a major reason why so many young people, gay or straight, are turning away from religion as well.

Dilan Esper: You know, I’m the last person to talk about what constitutes a “good Christian” or “good Catholic”. I’m an agnostic secularist who thinks that religion is silly. Nonetheless, smiling and saying “your reward may be coming” about a person who is going to hell strikes me as pretty obviously contrary to Christian / Catholic doctrine about sin.

Check your first sentence against your second. “I don’t know any thing about X, but I think that what you just said about X is wrong.” It’s amazing how religion is one of those areas where people feel comforable expressing opinions on things they know nothing about. Kind of like film criticism.

The guy was poking gentle fun of my religion — which he has a perfect right to do — and I answered in kind. (You know, the Devil & Daniel Webster, Faust, etc.? That movie with Elizabeth Hurley?) Under no circumstances would I find him ACTUALLY going to hall to be funny. Or desirable. But since neither of you believe in hell, why do you care?

Randy: Chris: “I don’t think that’s quite the Satanic style, ya’ know?”So, you mean I’ve been supporting Satan my whole life, advancing his Satanic Agenda, and I don’t get anything out of it? Not even some super powers to blow up kittens and children with an evil look?

Well you might have negotiated over the powers at the outset. But uncontracted expressions of gratitude? No way.

Actually, I sorta agree. I don’t agree with praising these people, of course, nor do I find anything good about them. And I find the Bishop’s essay appalling. But it does take some degree of bravery to blow oneself up. Or fly a plane into a building. And we shouldn’t forget that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, however much we abhor the violence.

But that’s still a fairly cheap argument. It’s like praising fascism because they made the trains run on time. Well, great — it’s true (although I’ve heard to the contrary, but the basic point remains). But plenty of other good governments have made trains run on time, so there is simply no need to praise Mussolini for this one small achievement. There are so many other examples that are both true and truly admirable that we don’t have to resort to the bottom of the barrel to find metaphors.

As for you comment that gays are in the service of the devil, THAT is certainly whacked, of course. You a right to believe as you like, but fortunately, more and more people are realizing that it such beliefs belong in the Dark Ages.

You know, I’m the last person to talk about what constitutes a “good Christian” or “good Catholic”. I’m an agnostic secularist who thinks that religion is silly.

Nonetheless, smiling and saying “your reward may be coming” about a person who is going to hell strikes me as pretty obviously contrary to Christian / Catholic doctrine about sin. I can’t stand the Catholic position on gay rights and homosexuality, but you certainly aren’t supposed to think it is a GOOD thing if God sends some gay person to hell. I suspect a lot of Catholics and Christians, including conservative ones that I would have grave disagreements with, would find your flip attitude offensive, and they would have a right to feel that way.

Randy: So, you mean I’ve been supporting Satan my whole life, advancing his Satanic Agenda, and I don’t get anything out of it?

Don’t worry. Your reward may be coming. :)

I’m finding this debate rather comic, too, watching ostensibly intelligent and tolerant people get so wrapped up in hate that they can’t even read. But it’s also troubling. It takes a lot to get to the point where you can make yourself deny that a suicide bomber is — whatever else he may be — brave. That’s a dangerous mindset, because it leads you to view others as subhuman, which is something we should never do.

Actually, no, wait, it’s not. It’s been clear for some time that fundamentalists of all three Abrahamic religions share quite a bit in common (why wouldn’t they, considering the common origin?). They are the enemies of liberalism (small l), and they really only differ over tactics.

The Bishop is free to admire the Taleban if he wants. I’m really glad, actually, that he opened is moronic mouth and said so. Excellent! Well done! Thanks for displaying your reactionary idiocy to the world. :)

Sandy MacHoots: … you are overlooking the sentence which “Terrorism as a way to oppose the degeneration of the culture is to be rejected completely since such violence is itself another form of degeneracy.” I read that as clearly stating that murdering gays is evil, not as an endorsement.

And you are overlooking the entire rest of the paragraph glorifying Islamic fundamentalists. You can’t point to a group of people and say, “See, they value Godliness so much that they blow themselves up to kill fags! But you should really stop it with the fag-killing! But keep making those suicide bombers, you self-sacrificing peoples!”

Sandy MacHoots: A willingness to die for one’s country or one’s faith is admirable, even if the faith itself is evil. That’s why we can admire the courage and self-sacrifice of kamikaze pilots or Confederate soldiers.

No, we can admire kamikaze pilots and Confederate soldiers because they followed the rules of war and targeted enemy soldiers.

Among the remaining 40%, I suspect they like the idea of punishing homosexuals rather than the actual practice of punishing them. Will conservatives vote for higher local taxes so that police can conduct more intensive surveillance of homosexuals to aid anti-sodomy investigations? I doubt it. Some of the strongest support for sodomy laws comes from people who live in areas where they hardly ever see a police car drive by. Sodomy laws are about moral posturing more than anything else and I doubt the laws have ever been enforced in the same way laws against truly serious crimes (rape, murder, etc) have.

readery: Chief Justice Burger’s concurrence in Bowers v. Hardwick quoted with favor Blackstone’s characterization of sodomy as a graver offence than rape, and Burger dissented from the decision striking down the death penalty for rape. Idaho provided for life imprisonment for sodomy at the time Lawrence v. Texas was decided, and several other states with felony sodomy laws had multi-decade maximum sentences. Very harsh punishment for the offence had, and likely still has, a substantial amount of support in this country.

You’re aware that sodomy means, inter alia, oral intercourse, and that it refers to heterosexual conduct as well?

Do you really think that there is a substantial amount of support in this country that would like to give harsh punishmnet (multi-decade sentences) for consensual oral intercourse between consenting heterosexual couples? Even when married?

No?

Funny, that.

“The terrorists hate us for our freedom. And, well, we kind of do also.”

So, you mean I’ve been supporting Satan my whole life, advancing his Satanic Agenda, and I don’t get anything out of it? Not even some super powers to blow up kittens and children with an evil look?

Ricardo: You know, whenever there is a thread on Islamic fundamentalism one person (generally liberal) will come along and say that Islamic fundamentalism is bad but so is Christian fundamentalism. Then someone else will come along (generally conservative) and say the comparison is ridiculous and offensive. Between Sandy McHoots and the Archdiocese of Agana, I’m glad to see there are some Christian conservatives who can also see the comparison between Christian and Islamic fundamentalism.
Like the Belgian trading company’s view of Kurtz in Heart of Darkness, the chief criticism of Muslim fundamentalists here seems to be that they employ “unsound methods.”

Tru, dat. You expect somone to pipe up with, “he said all the wrong things, but I still believe that Catholic doctrine frowns upon homosexual practices”. But admiration for suicide bombers and agreement that the United States is the Great Satan? Pure Comedy Gold.

They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.

CCC 2358

And it’s been interpreted as such:

It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.

- “On The Pastoral Care Of Homosexual Persons”, by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Compassion doesn’t require the Church to say that certain things are or are not sins. As I recall, the Church teaches that we’re all sinners. The paragraph quoted by E.V. is outrageous to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

Sandy MacHoots: To Christians, as well as Muslims, there is certainly “a “grain of truth” in the idea that the United States, as the epitome of materialism and a growing source of moral relativism, is a “great Satan.”

You know, whenever there is a thread on Islamic fundamentalism one person (generally liberal) will come along and say that Islamic fundamentalism is bad but so is Christian fundamentalism. Then someone else will come along (generally conservative) and say the comparison is ridiculous and offensive. Between Sandy McHoots and the Archdiocese of Agana, I’m glad to see there are some Christian conservatives who can also see the comparison between Christian and Islamic fundamentalism.

Like the Belgian trading company’s view of Kurtz in Heart of Darkness, the chief criticism of Muslim fundamentalists here seems to be that they employ “unsound methods.”

loki13: perhaps it is not Dilan that needs to check his medications?

Perhaps not. Maybe he’s just a loud twit who resorts to flaming rants when he’s not capable of making a rational argument. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

d-day: The Archdiocese of Agana’s statement goes far beyond the bounds of Catholic doctrine as well. It does appall, even those who strictly believe, interpret, and apply Church doctrine. The Catechism requires compassion.

Wrong. You are confusing “compassion” with “condoning.” I’d like to see the parts of the Catechism that that suggest that homosexual relations, adultery, abortion, fornication, etc., aren’t sins.

(But, double up Sandy’s.)

Sandy MacHoots: Dude, check your medications.

Considering that in the previous thread you couldn’t figure out what was appalling, and then thought that the suicide bombers were a good model for our marines, and that you know write admiringly about kamikaze pilots, confederate soldiers, and Mao… not to mention that those who label America the great Satan might be on to a grain of truth…. not to mention lumping those who endorse killing gays with those who want to change our carbon footprint (????)….

perhaps it is not Dilan that needs to check his medications?

Dilan Esper: Gays and lesbians are not subhuman and worthy of discrimination, punishment, and violence, but anyone who actually has the temerity to love another gay or lesbian is fair game. Every gay and lesbian who loves their partner is the moral equivalent of Hitler. Since my imaginary friend, an invisible man in the sky, has told me that He is incredibly offended by a man putting his penis inside of another man, or a woman putting her tongue inside another woman’s vagina, it is by definition the same thing as Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews. Oh, and by the way, straight people cheating on their spouses is also the same thing as Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews.
And then these folks claim that anyone who points out how stupid this all is must be an anti-Catholic or anti-Christian bigot!

Dude, check your medications.

Now that EV has had to explain why he thought it was appalling, I am shocked and appalled.

And not once has Satan even given me so much as a thank you!
You’d think I’d at least get some flowers once in a while.

I don’t think that’s quite the Satanic style, ya’ know?

Y’know, you may have an out there.

Gosh, I never knew I was helping Satan all this time just by being gay and expressing my love for my boyfriend by lying with him as I would do with a woman ( not that I would ever lie with a woman, ’cause I think it’s pretty icky). And not once has Satan even given me so much as a thank you!

You’d think I’d at least get some flowers once in a while.

Translation:

Gays and lesbians are not subhuman and worthy of discrimination, punishment, and violence, but anyone who actually has the temerity to love another gay or lesbian is fair game. Every gay and lesbian who loves their partner is the moral equivalent of Hitler. Since my imaginary friend, an invisible man in the sky, has told me that He is incredibly offended by a man putting his penis inside of another man, or a woman putting her tongue inside another woman’s vagina, it is by definition the same thing as Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews. Oh, and by the way, straight people cheating on their spouses is also the same thing as Hitler killing 6,000,000 Jews.

And then these folks claim that anyone who points out how stupid this all is must be an anti-Catholic or anti-Christian bigot!

I don’t support taxing churches. But there’s no doubt this is a subsidy– it is economically exactly the same as taxing every organization and then writing a welfare check for the amount of the income tax paid to each church in America.

There’s no economic difference between tax cuts and spending.

Over the short term, it makes sense for the Church to move to the right, because demographically they can recover a lot of their lost membership from Latin America and Africa where there are higher birthrates.

Over the long term, religious conservativism is doomed to fail, because as nations become richer and more successful their people (1) gain an appreciation for science which renders religious tales more questionable, (2) educate themselves about modern and progressive ideas (such as feminism, secularism, humanism, sexual liberation, etc.) which call religious moral teachings into question, and (3) live better lives, which reduce the yearning for a better and more just afterlife. This is why much of first world Europe and Asia is so secularized, and the US is going in that direction too. In the long term, this is going to cream religious that hold onto conservative orthodoxy; religions that offer a rather milquetoast faith should come out of it OK, though.

ptt: although you think that Catholics are leaving in droves because of the Church’s leanings to the right, many think that it is because the Church has gone so far to the left so as to have lost its compass.

Either way, one imagines the Bishop’s feels a twinge of nostalgia for the good old days…

1. I believe your reading of the post as endorsing the death penalty for gays is wrong, although it’s admittedly not a well-written piece. The Church, as you may or may not be aware, opposes the death penalty in virtually all cases, and it’s simply not credible to believe that the Archbishop is endorsing the death penalty for gays when he presumably opposes the death penalty for serial rapist-murderers. I certainly didn’t read it this way until you suggested it, and I’d be amazed to find that any of the parishoners took that view.

2. In quoting the language that Islamic fundamentalist culture is “brutal at times,” and “[o]ne, however, does not have to agree with the gruesome ways that the fundamentalists use to curb the forces that undermine their culture,” you are overlooking the sentence which “Terrorism as a way to oppose the degeneration of the culture is to be rejected completely since such violence is itself another form of degeneracy.” I read that as clearly stating that murdering gays is evil, not as an endorsement.

3. You seem to be appalled simply by the fact that someone is acknowledging anything good about Muslim terrorists. A willingness to die for one’s country or one’s faith is admirable, even if the faith itself is evil. That’s why we can admire the courage and self-sacrifice of kamikaze pilots or Confederate soldiers. It’s possible to cite Mao’s courage and political skill without endorsing his murders. If you’re going to deal with your enemies, it’s wise to be candid about what their strengths are. And “self-sacrifice” at this point is one of radical Islam’s great strengths.

4. To Christians, as well as Muslims, there is certainly “a “grain of truth” in the idea that the United States, as the epitome of materialism and a growing source of moral relativism, is a “great Satan.” Go reread Pilgrim’s Progress. It’s possible to love and admire the United States while recognizing that Satan relentlessly tries to use material comforts and “tolerance” of formerly intolerable things to undermine Christian (and presumably Muslim) values. I don’t want to offend, but if you believe in the sacrament of Holy Matrimony, anything that undercuts that–whether it be same-sex marriage, adultery, rampant pornography, or divorce–is helping Satan’s cause,

5. I’m not sure you understand exactly what “Satanic” means. It’s a descriptive term, not an epithet. It’s got nothing to do with Rosemary’s Baby or The Omen. Anything which has the potential to lead people away from God is doing the work of Satan and is thus “Satanic.” Homosexuality is not a sin, but engaging in homosexual relations is. All sins are from Hell. Since engaging in same-sex relations is a sin, it’s by definition a work of Hell, in precisely the same way that having straight sexual relations outside of marriage is a work of Hell. Obviously atheism is also “Satanic” in the sense that it denies and seeks to overthrow God’s kingdom.

6. What idol worship are you talking about? Is there some new pagan religion going around that I’m not aware of?

7. You say, “After all, the self-sacrifice-valuing fundamentalist Islam provides for repressing conversion away from Islam (including to Catholicism) by death. Should we look up to them on that, too?” As I mentioned above, the Church opposes the death penalty. Though to be fair, there are certainly historical cases when the Church did apply the death penalty to apostates.

8. You say, “consider the suggestion that we should decide what rights and privileges our own citizens should have based on what Islamic fundamentalists think — that, too, is appalling.” I agree, but I certainly don’t read the bishop as suggesting that. Certainly there are people (with whom I disagree) who believe we ought to change some things about America (our capitalist system, our carbon footprint, our health care system, our first amendment protections) to be more popular with other countries. I disagree, but I’m not sure I find the concept “appalling.”