Michael Turton

Care to state how, exactly, you believe that Israel’s regional power has helped keep pro-American regimes in Jordan and Saudi Arabia?

And, after that, do you have any thoughts about whether this supposed benefit is outweighed by the animosity created in Jordan and Saudi Arabia towards the US for its unflagging support of Israel? You might begin by explaining how 19 of the 20 9/11 hijackers from Saudi Arabia viewed the US’s support of Israel.

Oren: Starting a futile war (that ends up nearly destroying your people) because the Messiah is coming seems different than simply awaiting his arrival (but still acting like a normal human being).

Your history was faulty. The leader of that war, Bar Koziva (who changed his name to Bar Kochba, in order to foster an identification Mashiach), did not claim that Mashiach was imminent, nor did his followers. Many of those followers, including R. Akiva, believed that Bar Kochba was in fact Mashiach. Other followers of the rebellion disagreed, and one of them (I forget which one, but like R. Akiva, he was a Tanna),told Akiva “The grass will grow from your cheeks (i.e. you will be dead and buried) before Mashiach is here.”

That said, I agree that it is disastrous to start an unnecessary war against a vastly superior foe, and that one should act like a normal human being — the moreso, in fact — when Mashiach is imminent.

Leo Marvin: I just hope he doesn’t mean 100,000 Jews die whenever you agree with Sarcastro

No, that would imply I had agreed with Sarcastro before, and as best I recall, I hadn’t.

CJColucci: That would civilize Texas, remove the main irritant in Arab-American relations,

No, it would remove the main excuse in Arab-American relations. The Arabs would soon find another excuse.

Not sure which incident you are referring to.

Well, I was referring to the second Jewish-Roman war. Starting a futile war (that ends up nearly destroying your people) because the Messiah is coming seems different than simply awaiting his arrival (but still acting like a normal human being).

That is, it’s not the most recent proclamation of the end of days, but certainly the one that seems to have made people lose their minds most thoroughly.

This post seems to suggest that Klein has lumped all neo-conservatives and hawkish figures together as Jews in a vindictive attempt to suggest that they think what they think simply because they’re Jewish.

I’m sorry but the mere mention that certain neo-cons are Jewish does not reach that level.

Mr. Bernstein wrote:

“I’d say this is at best arguable (e.g., if Israel didn’t exist, Jordan would likely fall to anti-American interests as it would have without Israeli intervention in 1970, and then perhaps Saudi Arabia)”

The response was:

“So your argument is that Israel serves the US’s strategic interests because it fosters stability and pro-American sentiment in Jordan and Saudi Arabia?Wow.”

Bernstein replies:

Equiman, do you know what “e.g.,” means?

Usually e.g. means “for example.”

You also left out that I started the point with “I’d say this is at best arguable.” So what you should have written is “So your argument is that Israel [arguably] serves the US’s strategic interests[.] because it One example is that fosters stability and pro-American sentiment in [its regional power has helped keep pro-American regimes in]Jordan and Saudi Arabia [in power].” I’m not sure why I should expected to respond to a “paraphrase” of my argument that is actually a completely different argument.

If you will stop humping Mr. Bernstein’s leg, you’ll see that he didn’t quibble at all with what I said. He was just wondering what I thought e.g. meant.

Ricardo:
That’s the state of modern political discourse.“Neocon” has replaced “fascist” as the epithet of choice for some on the left while Marxist, socialist, and even fascist (Jonah Goldberg — the original subtitle of his “Liberal Fascism” book was “From Mussolini to Hillary Clinton”) continue to get flung around by some on the right.In neither case to people seem to care to understand what these terms actually mean.

Can’t we at least agree that “Nazi” has been stripped of significance by both sides, and find a new word to render meaningless?

Yankev:
Mashiach must be at hand — Sarcastro posts something even I can love!

Oren: The last time we thought that, 100,000 Jews were killed and a million more exiled. I’m not keen on repeating that chain of events. :-)

Not sure which incident you are referring to.

I just hope he doesn’t mean 100,000 Jews die whenever you agree with Sarcastro.

(The title of the Gene Wilder-Harrison Ford film about a Polish rabbi making his way across the American west to San Francisco with the help of a bank robber with a heart of gold escapes me.)

CJColucci, that movie would be The Frisco Kid.

yankee: This. I’m sure someone could think of some American strategic interest that’s served by our support for the Israeli government, but “promoting pro-American sentiment in the Middle East” is not it. American support of Israeli policy makes our reputation in the region worse, not better, except within Israel itself.

Reading is fundamental. Nowhere did DB say anything about “pro-American sentiment.” He said interests, not sentiment.

equiman: I hope that, at this point, even you have realized how, shall we say, unpersuasive, the notion is that Israel serves the US strategic interests by promoting pro-American sentiment in the middle East.

This. I’m sure someone could think of some American strategic interest that’s served by our support for the Israeli government, but “promoting pro-American sentiment in the Middle East” is not it. American support of Israeli policy makes our reputation in the region worse, not better, except within Israel itself.

“I’d say this is at best arguable (e.g., if Israel didn’t exist, Jordan would likely fall to anti-American interests as it would have without Israeli intervention in 1970, and then perhaps Saudi Arabia)”

The response was:

“So your argument is that Israel serves the US’s strategic interests because it fosters stability and pro-American sentiment in Jordan and Saudi Arabia?Wow.”

Bernstein replies:

Equiman, do you know what “e.g.,” means?

Usually e.g. means “for example.”

It’s odd that the argument you choose – and the only one you choose – as your “example” is such a weak and laughable one.

Usually people like to offer their best arguments.

I hope that, at this point, even you have realized how, shall we say, unpersuasive, the notion is that Israel serves the US strategic interests by promoting pro-American sentiment in the middle East.

Okey dokey. Now that we’ve established that the only example in support of your argument that you have provided is laughable, what else you got?

Anything?

Oren: The last time we thought that, 100,000 Jews were killed and a million more exiled. I’m not keen on repeating that chain of events.

Not sure which incident you are referring to. If you mean Shabsi Tzvi, that was a case of “Mashiach is here”, and there have been many more recent events.

If you mean the leaders of 19th Century Reform who said that the Messiah is here and his name is freedom, and Berlin is the New Jerusalem, again, it was a case of he is here, not he is coming, and, as predicted by R. Meir Simcha (the Ohr Sameach), the result was about 60 times the number of deaths that you cited.

Even more recent are certain followers of MMSh, zt’l (although those followers might instead say shelitah), who believe that he is still only waiing for the right moment to reveal himself.

If you mean those who voted for The One, we have yet to see how many deaths r”l will result from the man’s combination of incompetence and arrogance, but it is certainly looking ominous. (I am reminded of the fictional Ambassador Lando Mollari, who remarked to an equally fictional general of another government, “Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you!’)

And yes, I realize you were kidding, but derech agav . . . anticipating the imminent arrival of Mashiach has a long tradition and in fact is considered by some to be a constant mitzvas a’aseh. They say that the Chafetz Chaim, zt’l, kept a packed suitcase under his bed so that he would be ready to leave on a moment’s notice when Mashiach arrived. Thinking that Mashiach is already here, otoh, does have serious problems, as I will agree.

The charge certainly is ridiculous. Confrontationalism and bellicosity are McCain’s natural states.

Really?!? How many US air bases are in Israel? How many US combat-air missions have utilized Israel to either originate, end or refuel? You will be surprised to learn the answers to these questions are zero and close to zero, if not zero. The US has bases, etc., in several Arab states, however. Israel is not a puppet of the United States — and little dorky conservatives like you who idolize Israel with your own fantasies of being “the baddest kid in the schoolyard” only cause the dangerous misperception that Israel is a puppet of the US. Moreover, go talk to some Israelis — left, right and center — there is no fun to being “the baddest kid in the schoolyard”; it may be necessary because of the neighborhood they live in, but it is not something they want — you go spend some time in the military and then come back here and glorify war and the death others. . . .

Mashiach must be at hand — Sarcastro posts something even I can love!

The last time we thought that, 100,000 Jews were killed and a million more exiled. I’m not keen on repeating that chain of events. :-)

equiman: So your argument is that Israel serves the US’s strategic interests because it fosters stability and pro-American sentiment in Jordan and Saudi Arabia?Wow.

Maybe not pro american sentiment, but certainly stability. Israel is our permanent aircraft carrier on the eastern end of the Mediterranean.It is of great strategic importance.Militarily it is the baddest kid in the schoolyard and all the other kids know it and stay in line.

if Israel didn’t exist, Jordan would likely fall to anti-American interests as it would have without Israeli intervention in 1970, and then perhaps Saudi Arabia),

So your argument is that Israel serves the US’s strategic interests because it fosters stability and pro-American sentiment in Jordan and Saudi Arabia?

Wow.

Exactly, NowMD

And who, exactly, is the charismatic leader? Where are the concentration camps? Whi is supposed to be exterminated by Charles Krauthammer and Joe Lieberman? Where do they want American Boundaries set?

Maybe you need to see a psychiatrist to be evaluated for a possible prescription for antipsychotc medication.

sashal says:
Sarcastro, is that the only thing which unites Nazis and neocons?
fear and propaganda?
how about militarism, belligerence; how about disregard to human life,cultural differences, historical progress ; and how about exceptionalism etc…

And eliminating elections, glorification of a charismatic leader, imprisonment, torture and death of political enemies, eradication of despised minorities, expansionism. Just like neoconservatives.