In the City Journal, Heather Mac Donald has an interesting article showing how California’s 1998 ban on bilingual education (a referendum initiative that passed despite the opposition of most of the political and education establishment) has improved English Language acquisition by immigrant Hispanic students. Unsurprisingly, young children learn new languages better by immersion. Mac Donald also claims that this result ran counter to the predictions of various experts in education and psychology:
Unless Hispanic children were taught in Spanish, the bilingual advocates moaned, they would be unable to learn English or to succeed in other academic subjects….
The 1960s Chicano rights movement (“Chicano” refers to Mexican-Americans) asserted that the American tradition of assimilation was destroying not just Mexican-American identity but also Mexican-American students’ capacity to learn. Teaching these students in English rather than in Spanish hurt their self-esteem and pride in their culture, Chicano activists alleged: hence the high drop-out rates, poor academic performance, and gang involvement that characterized so many Mexican-American students in the Southwest. Manuel Ramirez III, currently a psychology professor at the University of Texas at Austin, argued that bilingual education was necessary to ensure “the academic survival of Chicano children and the political and economic strength of the Chicano community…”
Novel linguistic theories arose to buttress this political platform. Children could not learn a second language well unless they were already fully literate in their native tongue, the newly minted bilingual-ed proponents argued. To teach English to a five-year-old who spoke Spanish at home, you had to instruct him in Spanish for several more years, until he had mastered Spanish grammar and spelling. “Young children are not language sponges,” asserts McGill University psychology professor Fred Genesee, defying centuries of parental observation.
Such claims are difficult to take seriously. Centuries of immigrant experience show that immersion enables young children to quickly pick up new languages, whether they are literate in their original language or not. When I arrived in the US at the age of six, I didn’t speak a word of English and I couldn’t read and write in Russian at all, never mind being “fully literate” in it. Nonetheless, as a result of immersion, I was fluent in English within a year and literate within two – long before I belatedly achieved literacy in Russian at the age of ten. Since we spoke Russian at home, my progress with English was almost entirely the result of immersion in school.
It would be wrong to generalize from personal experience alone. But I have seen numerous other immigrant children with similar stories, both in the Russian community and elsewhere. For example, when I was in college, I was a volunteer tutor for Cambodian refugee school children. Most of the parents were poor, ill-educated, and had limited or no English proficiency. Nonetheless, their kids who had arrived in the US at elementary school ages all spoke fluent English because of immersion (public schools in the area probably lacked the personnel to teach these students in Cambodian, even if they had wanted to). Those who came to the US at high school ages had a much tougher time, but were still making progress. I can understand claims that bilingual education is needed for students who arrive in the US at high school age or later. But for elementary school students, immersion is by far the best way to go. Moreover, as Mac Donald points out, immersion is a standard, highly effective technique used by leading programs that teach students foreign languages (e.g. – Middlebury College’s Language Schools). Even adult students benefit from it, though admittedly not as much or as quickly as children.
I would add that in most immigrant communities, the usual concern about immersion is not that it prevents kids from learning English, but that it leads them to lose competency in their native languages. I’ve often heard immigrant parents lament this, though few want to put their kids in bilingual ed programs to prevent it (because they realize that failure to learn English quickly is likely to hurt their children’s future prospects). Loss of native language competency is a genuine problem; speaking a second language has great value in today’s globalized economy. But this issue should be addressed by means that don’t slow students’ progress in English.
Suzy says:
I agree completely. Another telling practice is the method used by people who want their children to grow up bilingual (which enhances other cognitive abilities and is preferable in that sense to growing up with a single language). They exclusively speak the other language (e.g. Hebrew, Spanish) in the home, and allow the children to learn English through immersion when they begin preschool or kindergarten. I have several friends who are raising their kids this way right now, resulting in bilingual abilities and great academic success in English. If parents don’t do it this way, then the children will grow up favoring English so strongly that they might lose the other language. However, speaking one language at home and another in public or at school is the best chance that the child will become fluent in both. It’s a serious disservice to children with a non-English native language to suggest that they should continue to be taught in that language.
December 10, 2009, 11:47 pmgeokstr says:
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.”
Ronald Wilson Reagan
December 10, 2009, 11:52 pmRicardo says:
I’m not surprised. In non-English speaking countries, parents pay big money to send their children to private English-medium schools. I once passed by a school in Thailand that had a large sign in front that said [in English] “All students here speak English with the CNN pronunciation.” Why anyone would think less is better when it comes to education in English is a mystery to me.
December 11, 2009, 12:12 amAndrew J. Lazarus says:
I’m in considerable agreement. I couldn’t get behind the anti-bilingual-ed groups in California because you didn’t have to go deep in the membership rolls before you got to a bigot, but immersion works. I know, because my kids spent three early years in the Israeli school system, and learned excellent spoken Hebrew.
Israel does have one concession I think would be worth considering. As I tried to understand it, recent immigrants of high school age can take the equivalent of the SAT in their native language. The idea was to make sure talented immigrants weren’t denied college because they just hadn’t acquired Hebrew language skills yet.
December 11, 2009, 12:39 amBrian G. says:
It is bad public policy to teah all children in this country English. After all, if they are immersed in English, how will we keep a fresh supply of dishwashers, cheap labor, and politically ignorant people?
I a being facetious here, but those of many of the reasons why liberals really want to keep children from assimilating, and they know it.
December 11, 2009, 12:46 amEvilDave says:
Pah, don’t believe your lying eyes.
December 11, 2009, 12:46 amScience, especially social science, is whatever The Party says it is.
Soronel Haetir says:
I find the chicano culture comment to be refreshingly honest.
December 11, 2009, 1:10 amBrett says:
Indeed. The people quoted there are blatantly favoring bilingual education out of the desire to preserve some type of culture, not because it actually helps the children to thrive in American society.
December 11, 2009, 1:34 amyankee says:
I wasn’t a fan of the ban ex ante because I was concerned that the focus on language acquisition would harm students’ acquisition of subject matter knowledge. How can you learn to multiply if you’re struggling to figure out what the teacher is saying, my reasoning went. But MacDonald claims “Hispanic test scores on a range of subjects have risen since Prop. 227 became law.” This sounds like a positive development, especially given that California’s school system has been declining as a result of Prop 13. Glad to know I was wrong (assuming MacDonald’s claims are truthful and nonmisleading).
I always get antsy when people start talking about “assimilation” as a goal of these programs though. Are we the Borg?
December 11, 2009, 1:43 amPerseus says:
It’s an indication of what claptrap multiculturalism (and bilingual education in particular) is when even someone like the late liberal historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr. worried about it.
As for the Borg, the U.S. (unlike the Borg) does not force people to become part of the American “collective.”
December 11, 2009, 2:10 amRicardo says:
Maybe we could frame it as avoiding balkinization instead. Even peaceful developed countries like Canada and Belgium have active secession movements based on linguistic divisions. Also, schools have an obligation to do everything they can to make sure students will qualify for a decent job or go to college after graduating. In many non-English-speaking countries parents will scrimp and save to be able to afford to send their children to a private English-medium school. If they come to the U.S., they are getting a bargain considering they can send their child to an English-medium public school for free.
December 11, 2009, 2:32 amyankee says:
I didn’t say anything about “multiculturalism,” that’s your term. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a hopelessly vague word that I recommend avoiding.
You are correct that the U.S. doesn’t force people, but MacDonald seems to think that government schools should be used to for the purpose of indoctrinating kids into “assimilation.” As far as I’m concerned, the government has no business deciding what “real” American culture is and telling kids they’re supposed to adhere to that rather than following their parents.
December 11, 2009, 2:50 amRich Rostrom says:
The insistence on “bilingual” education and opposition to immersion was never based on students’ best interests.
It was the position of professional “Hispanics”: “organizers”, “advocates”, “leaders” – whose position depended on as many people as possible identifying as “Hispanics”. Those who spoke only Spanish remained dependent on the “organizers”; the more of them there were, the greater justification for government grants to the “organizers” and their NGOs.
It was also the position of the Spanish-language media, which wanted to preserve its captive audience.
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December 11, 2009, 5:00 amkdackson says:
Well, DUH!!!
My wife is a foreign language instructor (French and Spanish) and tells he mainly native English speaking students that immersion programs are the best way to learn and master a language. That’s why her courses are taught entirely in the target language.
So if it works for English ==> [any other language], why shouldn’t it work for [any other language] ==> English?
December 11, 2009, 5:51 amCostello says:
“Children could not learn a second language well unless they were already fully literate in their native tongue”
Which is perfectly true in certain instances, just not this one. The most important factor to consider here is the fact that the Hispanic children in the USA are not just exposed to English during classtime but are also surrounded by it (to varying degrees) outwith school. They will need to speak English to communicate with non-Spanish speaking schoolmates as well as with non Hispanic people in the wider community.
The historical example in my own country (Scotland) is illustrative here. In the 18th century many schools were opened in the Gaelic speaking areas by the ‘Scottish Society for the Propogation of Christian Knowledge’ which was an English speaking movement and virulently anti-Gaelic. While the replacement of the Gaelic language with English was an ambition for them their main priority was the teaching of the gospel and after several decades of failing miserably to teach monoglot Gaelic speaking children in English – a language totally foreign to them – they conceded that it was only possible to bring them to fluency and literacy in the second language after having taught them in their native language. The switch from exclusively English medium education to bilingual education was what started the spread of the English language throughout Gaelic speaking Scotland. The crucial difference between the two examples (18th cent Scotland and 20th/21st cent California) is the level of exposure to the target language. Scottish children would go to school not knowing a word of English and yet would be taught, from day one, in the language despite having no comprehension of it. Living in non-English speaking communities long before things like radio and television and modern travel allowed constant exposure to another language their only experience of English was in the classroom so fluency was rarely achieved. In modern California, however, children from families and even communities which are exclusively Spanish speaking can go to school and be taught exclusively through English they are surrounded by English language and will need to use the language with non Hispanic members of the community which is what will bring them to competence and, quickly enough, fluency in the language.
December 11, 2009, 6:29 amMichelle Dulak Thomson says:
Ricardo,
Maybe we could frame it as avoiding balkinization instead.
I hope not.
December 11, 2009, 7:03 amPerseus says:
So you do advocate “indoctrinating kids into assimilation.” It’s just that parents are the ones who get to say to their kids: ‘You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile!’
December 11, 2009, 7:30 amWidmerpool says:
Let me guess, Perseus, you also believe that all the money you earn actually belongs to the government and by its benevolent generosity it allows you to keep some of it by not withholding and taxing all of it.
As Bill Cosby might respond as to why parents “get” to indoctrinate their kids: “I brought you into this world and I can take you OUT.”
December 11, 2009, 8:12 amHelen says:
For non English-speaking students who enter at secondary school age, I don’t think that attempts to teach math in English will be successful. And I don’t think it’s particularly important that they be taught math in English, either.
I don’t know any multi-lingual individual who is comfortable performing calculations in any language other than the one where he first learned math. During World War II the allies exploited this to detect German spies who had learned accent-free perfect English or French; they simply asked them to perform long division out loud.
For a non English-speaking student who enters high school, I feel that the best course of action would be intensive instruction in English — including, but not limited to, immersion. Then follow up by teaching all subjects except math in English. Teach math in his/her original language.
If the student is college-bound, he’ll eventually have to take math courses in English (or in what passes for English in most college math departments.) But college-level math is a lot less calculation-dependent.
December 11, 2009, 8:24 amegd says:
What kind of silly claptrap is this? I thought liberals loved Noam Chomsky. This assertion by Mr. Genesee has been disproved time and again, children are language sponges.
In fact, the only risk in educating children who speak Spanish at home in English is the risk of developing a creole language between similarly situated students. But with a sufficiently large enough pool of Spanish and English speakers to replace the creole speakers who move out of the area, this dialect will eventually die out.
December 11, 2009, 8:41 amAbdul says:
Part of the support of bilingual ed is attributable to outcomes based education. When schools get funding and resouces based on state test scores, they don’t want to wait for recent immigrants to climb up the learning curve. They’d rather teach test content in native languauge so that the test scores reflect actual aptitude and not the difficulty of taking a test in a new language.
Another reason for the support is that Bilingual Ed is a jobs program for bilingual teachers. A school that might only support two science teachers will need a third one who can speak Mandarin if there is a critical mass of Chinese immigrants.
December 11, 2009, 8:47 amBZ says:
Last Term, the Supreme Court dealt with this very question. Horne v. Flores, 557 U.S. ___ (2009); http://www4.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-289.ZS.html. The brief discussing the rise, evolution and fall of bilingual education, referred to in the majority opinion at footnote 10, is available at: http://www.americanunity.org/amici%20brief%20HornevFlores.pdf.
December 11, 2009, 9:34 amGuest Again says:
This thread has just inspired me to find a copy of and reread the classic: The Education of H*y*m*a*n K*a*p*l*a*n! See http://www.amazon.com/Education-Hyman-Kaplan-Humour-Classics/product-reviews/1853753823/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
December 11, 2009, 9:52 amJay says:
“Let me guess, Perseus, you also believe that all the money you earn actually belongs to the government and by its benevolent generosity it allows you to keep some of it by not withholding and taxing all of it.
As Bill Cosby might respond as to why parents “get” to indoctrinate their kids: “I brought you into this world and I can take you OUT.””
So believing that it’s important to maintain any sort of coherent national identity is the equivalent to being a full-fledged Marxist who doesn’t believe in private property? And if you’re so big on individual rights, I guess I’m not following why parents should get to control their children, either. Do you think the age of majority should be lowered to 10 or so?
December 11, 2009, 10:02 amMike Keenan says:
I can’t find a reference for that quote by Professor Genesee.
It is sad for the children of immersion to lose their language and culture. The alternative is sadder though. And any middle ground seems difficult without it being the responsibility of the parent.
December 11, 2009, 11:00 amDotar Sojat says:
Another reason for the support bilingual education receives from Hispanic cultlural organizations such as La Raza and MEChA is to foster the expansion of an unassimilated, non-English speaking population that can be used as a political power base. In Nuevo Aztlan, English will not be spoken. The head of Univision, who poured money into campaigns against immersion, also wants as many Spanish only speakers as possible because that is good for business. This is not an argument against maintaining a sense of cultural heritage or identity. My own kids (5th and 6th grades) are Hispanic, and we went to great lengths to have them tutored in Spanish by someone from their native country who would also teach them about that country. We have taken them back so that could reallly see it for the first time and learn more about the people and culture, and be proud of it. But they are being raised as Americans of X heritage, and they do not do, act and say everything “as a Latino/a.” Their friends don’t give a hoot where they came from, only whether they have Rock Band. People of Italian, Polish Lithuanian, Swedish, etc. heritage have managed to preserve their cultural heritage and identity in the US today without any “cultural genocide” accusations still being thrown around. More power to them, and to the Greek schools that exist in real life and just not in that movie. But everyone speaks English, and is bound together by it in a national society.
December 11, 2009, 11:21 amerp says:
I didn’t speak a word of English when I entered first grade. It took me a while to get the hang of it, but by the end of the school year, I caught up with the other kids even in
matharithmetic. The experience gave me a life-long love of the English language even with all its warts and contradictions.That immersion works for young kids isn’t even debatable, but it also works for older kids and adults. There are several very good programs that produce fabulous results at the college level including some used by the military. Many people say that one isn’t really proficient in another language until one stops thinking in their native language and mentally translating.
If the goals of our public schools is turning out citizens schooled in the basics and identifying those students who are qualified to continue to higher education, then the techniques are well known. However, our public schools have been hijacked by the leftwing teachers unions bent on using the schools for their misguided social programs.
Public schools cost far more per student than private schools although private schools turn out citizens who are far better prepared. In the same way private health care is far cheaper and more effective than socialized medicine.
If providing good medical care to those at the lower end of the economic curve were really the goal, we’d have free clinics at the local level funded by local governments and private charities partnered with local hospitals. It would cost a tiny fractions of the $1,000,000,000,000 and counting make-work project for SEIU that’s being rammed through congress right now.
December 11, 2009, 11:23 amys says:
This is simply not true. How do I know? I am your counterexample. My aloud counting is pretty much random, especially when I am in a non-monolingual environment. Those spies (who were caught) just did not practice counting properly. They had not done sufficient immersion either. There are always some areas of underexposure to language even in one’s native language, but nothing that can’t be cured by exposure to that area. And BTW, I was not 6 when I started my English immersion (and I was not 18 either).
P.S. Now, if you expect a spy to use this long division that comes from the Chicago school of teaching elementary math and was shoved down the throat of my American-born kid, then yes, you are going to catch quite a few spies who whould be unable to comprehend it. I was not.
December 11, 2009, 11:32 amys says:
That (speaking the other language at home) is not always sufficient, and frankly is not 100% required. In my experience, getting children to do something additional is critical. For my kids, it was reading for one and watching movies in the language for the other. And yes, it would be a shame to lose another language that one would get (almost) for free, except for the effort of the parents.
December 11, 2009, 11:55 amCan't find a good name says:
Frankly, if I were asked to do long division “out loud” in English, which is my native language and the one in which all my math classes were taught, I would have a hard time with that. I always thought of long division as a written process, not an oral one.
December 11, 2009, 12:26 pmRandy says:
“Frankly, if I were asked to do long division “out loud” in English, which is my native language and the one in which all my math classes were taught, I would have a hard time with that. I always thought of long division as a written process, not an oral one.”
I think that’s the point. Asking someone to do something not natural put will show you whats really going on. I would too have difficulty doing long division out loud, but my English would nonetheless be perfect and in my native accent. A spy who isn’t practiced in this would have to concentrate on the math problem AND still getting the language and accent perfect. With practice, I’m sure a person could pass, but unlikely if they didn’t.
My sister adopted a five year old girl from Russia, and the first few months were hell. They had to hire a russian speaking nanny to come in a few days a week just so that someone could talk to her to find out about problems (that’s how they found out she needed glasses). At first, she thought that everyone else should talk Russian, and she resisted learning English. When it finally clicked with her that wasn’t going to work, her little brain finally started to absorb English.
So — it’s a little bit different for everyone. Immersion is great, but you might still need some foriegn language instructors on hand to deal with problems that arise until conversational fluency is achieved.
December 11, 2009, 12:50 pmGranite26 says:
No one has yet mentioned the proximity of Latin America caused by modern communications and, well, it’s proximity. Unlike previous generations of European and Asian immigration who had limited contact with their home cultures beyond their own ghettos and now view themselves as Americans who came from X, modern hispanic immigrants are no more than a few hours from their country of origin and likely to consider themselves X living in America.
I don’t think that it’s a simple ‘they haven’t been here long enough’ either.
Culturally, it shouldn’t be a problem, except when the citizens start identifying more with their country of origin than with their new home, or worse, bring disastrous institutional failures along with them.
December 11, 2009, 1:09 pmguy in the veal calf office says:
In Los Angeles, many white middle class parents deliberately send their kids into immersion programs to learn Mandarin, Japanese or Spanish. Its a very popular and enrollment available only thorugh a lottery.
December 11, 2009, 1:33 pmLaura Victoria says:
I’m an American living in Los Cabos, Mexico. Before moving here, I worked with many Hispanic clients. The bilingual educational system combined with having every imaginable service available in Spanish has only harmed Hispanic advancement. Imersion in the language works, period. It is LOL hilarious that down here, despite a large number of English only speakers, virtually nothing (other than restaurant and bar service – can you say “margarita”)is available in English.
When I’ve told my middle-class Mexican friends about both bi-lingual education and affirmative action in the US, they were both incredulous and disappointed. The concept of someone getting extra brownie points on college admissions was totally foreign to them. They also thought it ludicrous that courses be taught in Spanish in the US. Most Mexicans no very little about what really goes on in the US because it is so difficult for them to get Visas to travel to the states. The US government assumes very wrongly that given the chance, virtually every Mexican would want to move to the US. Alas, my education of them about affirmative action has dampened their pride in the apparent achievements of their countrymen’s achievements in the US.
What unmitigated disasters both of these programs have been.
December 11, 2009, 1:47 pmLaura Victoria says:
Sorry for the spelling errors. Guess I’ve spent too much time immersed in Spanish!
December 11, 2009, 1:53 pmToby says:
What people often seem to miss is that people came to the US because of some defect in their native culture, whther dramatic, i.e., torture, genocide, rape, or less so, such as lack of economic oportunity. Losing their culture is likely to be a feature not a bug.
December 11, 2009, 2:48 pmPerseus says:
You guess incorrectly. But the premise that because “I brought you into this world, I can take you out” is the same as Sir Robert Filmer’s premise for patriarchy (both political and familial).
December 11, 2009, 3:22 pmJames T. Carrington says:
THAT IS WHAT PARENTS DO MAN. That is why the wolf-raised are not good at TPS reports… Also why they have to sign the permission slips permitting trips to the Aquarium and other havens of indoctrination.
December 11, 2009, 3:23 pmRyan Waxx says:
And, as predicted, drop-out rates, poor academic performance, and gang involvement all showed dramatic drops when bilingual education was implemented…. right?
December 11, 2009, 3:30 pmBarbara Skolaut says:
My father was born in a German farming community in central Texas in the early part of the 20th Century. Back then, immigrant communities were much more isolated than today. My grandparents, both American-born, spoke German as a first language, and knew they didn’t speak English well, so they waited until Daddy (and his younger sister) went to first grade and let him learn English in school.
Many of his schoolmates also spoke German as a first language, or they spoke Spanish. Somehow, magically, the teachers managed to teach this bunch of kids, who spoke German, or Spanish, or English, both in English and English itself. No bilingual education (I doubt the teachers spoke anything but English), no coddling, no excuses. The kids just learned – in no small part, I’m sure, because there weren’t a bunch of do-gooders hovering around telling them they couldn’t.
The experience didn’t seem to do Daddy any harm; he went on to become the Director of Pharmacy at NIH and, after he retired from there, Duke Hospital.
Gee, wonder what he could have accomplished it he’d had the do-gooders insisting on bilingual
December 11, 2009, 4:50 pmmis-education? /sarcPerseus says:
Romulus and Remus would beg to differ.
December 11, 2009, 6:11 pmSandy MacHoots says:
Ah, another bad knee-jerk ballot initiative by those terrible California voters who have caused every one of the state’s current problems by their hate-filled and irresponsible actions. They should listen to the experts.
December 11, 2009, 10:27 pmeslnyc says:
In education, the exclusion of a students’ L1 (native language) is problematic in two ways. First, as Crawford points out in Educating English Language Learners, “fluent bilinguals,” which are described as students who are “proficient in English and know the heritage language at least well,” scored higher in interviews on “family solidarity, self-esteem, and educational aspirations” (Crawford, 2004, p. 23). In addition, English monolinguals who are students that are proficient in English but no longer know the heritage language well, and limited bilinguals – students who are not proficient in any language – more frequently reported conflicts between their families, most likely resulting from a general “breakdown in communication” (p. 23). Second, this exclusion of a students’ L1 in NCLB is problematic in that research has proven that LEP students are less likely to make significant academic gains in English immersion classes. In a longitudinal study commissioned by the U.S. Department of Education, principal investigator David Ramirez compared the success of LEP students in a late-exit bilingual program, an early-exit bilingual program, and an all-English immersion program. Ramirez found that progress in student achievement grew over time with students in the late-exit bilingual program – the program which utilizes the most native-language instruction (p. 224). As Ramirez stated, “if your instructional objective is to help kids stay where they are – around the 25th percentile – then give them [English] immersion or early exit and they’ll keep their place in society. If your concern is to help kids catch up to the norming population, use more primary language…” (p. 226). Despite these findings, the federal government continues to turn its head to bilingual education, and continually advocates, whether explicitly or implicitly (via exclusion) for English immersion, or English proficiency whatever the cost may be.
December 11, 2009, 10:52 pmtyree says:
We raised 5 English speaking children during the 90′s in California and the following are a few observations from our experience:
1) The “Bi-Lingual aids” were not allowed to help non-Spanish speaking children.
2) The entire class was slowed down by having everything done in two (or more) languages.
3) More than one teacher said they wished they could teach the class at our child’s level.
4) The poor school performance helped drive most everyone we knew out of the area, we homeschooled.
5) A generation later my grandson’s parents are the only ones in his class who speak English at home. Our community is gone forever.
So English immersion has not slowed the rate of illegal immigration, at least in our area. The leaders of the “Chicano Movement” may have a problem with it, but the citizens of Mexico sure don’t.
December 11, 2009, 11:49 pmRicardo says:
That’s a bit much, especially if you consider yourself a social conservative. Most American social conservatives would love to import traditional Indian or Chinese family values to the U.S. Low divorce rates (in India, at least), children take care of their elderly parents, the young respect and obey their elders, etc. The biggest complaint of Asian immigrants in the U.S. in my experience is that they can’t get over how American kids talk back to and disrespect their parents. And they find American teenagers deplorable compared to the teenagers in their own countries.
December 12, 2009, 1:13 amtyree says:
Richardo, you are right. Social conservatives would love to import a lot of the traditional family values that the left wing has worked so hard to drive from our families. Unfortunately , at my children schools the teachers union made it very clear on numerous occasions that they were in control of our children, not us. The wishes of the parents were constantly ignored so that liberal indoctrination could be taught instead of reading, writing and arithmetic.
December 12, 2009, 9:32 amRandy says:
“Losing their culture is likely to be a feature not a bug.”
Whoa! There may be aspects of the society that they left that weren’t good, such as a major recession, bloody coup, war, whatever. But those aren’t defects in the culture. Most will come to the US and keep as much of the old culture as possible, including the cuisine, customs, dances, music, and so on. In fact, the first generation often clings a bit too much, turning off the second generation, who wants to be as American as possible. Then the third generation tries to recapture the first’s culture before it dies away.
Hence, all those street festivals in major cities celebrating the Irish, Italians, Poles, or what have you.
December 12, 2009, 2:48 pmAndrew J. Lazarus says:
I Googled for Prof. Ramirez, finding, for example, this rebuttal he wrote to arguments against bilingual education. I was not at all impressed. It’s a collection of straw man arguments. The most significant failure in that one piece was to recognize that advocates of English-immersion are talking about an intensive but time-limited program of English language acquisition. The Unz Initiative said one year, but my belief is that two years would be sounder. Ramirez was positing a null hypothesis of no help to English Learners at all, and I can believe that for many that would work out even worse than bilingual ed.
It’s hard for me to take bilingual ed seriously after my experience in Israel. I have a very negative opinion of Israeli policy with respect to Arabs, but they take absorption of immigrants seriously and they do not waste everyone’s time with indefinite, time-unlimited bilingual ed. And, I might add, even old guys like me learn a lot from five hours a day in language class.
December 12, 2009, 4:25 pmDelfin J Beltran MD says:
The arguement that bilingual education is a better or more rapid or efficient way to educate non-English speaking children was disproven over fifty years ago. I was born into a Filipino (ilicano dialect)-German family in late 1920s. My father insisted that only american-english was to used. Many of my classmates were in non-english mono-lingual speaking families. They became their parents teachers. This continues up until 2004 when I finished medical practice. My practice was in California and Kansas Many families spoke only a native tongue and were being taught local english. It was an interesting quirk of family power to interview a family mother and be told that she did not understand other than her native tongue. A senior child would usually be selected to answer my interview questions. Then when I dismissed the family for a private interview examination mother would answer my questions in local english. This is a family condition quite similar to the aging father who can no longer hear well enough to answer every question of criticism placed before him. Bilingual teaching, union power, anthropomorphic global warming, healthcare insurance are all part of the same political controlling shenanigans and ploys used to propagandize this country into the new form of slavery by government – the elite politicians who are so weak that every accusation is buffered by an excuse that it is the fault of others for their failures and greed.
December 12, 2009, 9:33 pmunhuh says:
Ricardo says, in reference to Toby’s observations about dramatic reasons for some immigrants motivations in coming to America:
That’s a bit much, especially if you consider yourself a social conservative.
Well Ricardo, you are likely thinking of tame countries of origination such as (Western) Europe, or some Asian ones. Have you considered such source places as (many) African or Arabic ones, or perhaps, some Southeast Asian ones? The cited horrors are quite real in those places.
December 14, 2009, 12:56 amMike says:
My father in law, who is American born, spoke Italian in his house and neighborhood until he went to first grade. He then started learning english.
This hardly hampered him as he is now 75 years old, still speak both languages (though a little rusty in Italian). He retired 10 years ago after a successful career in manufactuaing and rising to being a Sr. VP of the company he started working at when he was 19. He went to college and obtained an MBA along the way.
I understand if someone does not want to lose their Mexican identity, but you did come to the US and assimilation is going to happen whether you want it or not.
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