Jim N., in the comments to my post below on snow removal – sometimes it’s good for us academics to hear from a real-world expert, so thanks for commenting:
As a non-lawyer, non-academic, snow removal company owner I am relishing this opportunity to be the “expert” for the first time ever on VC!
Snow removal is NOT cheap, because the costs of operation are equally high. For plowing and spreading salt my trucks bill out on average $300 per hour. And I didn’t have to go to school for 7 years, have judges belittle me, and work in a profession despised by the general populace.
But I do have to get out of a warm bed at 3:00 am and go out and work in the snow…. Ok maybe you guys are better off!
Hans Bader says:
Snow removal has apparently already added more than $100 million to Virginia’s $2 billion budget gap.
February 6, 2010, 12:44 pmMikee says:
Maryland’s DOT snow removal teams, when I lived there in the 1990s, were highly motivated and vigorous in their efforts. Our street was plowed before dawn on every snow day for 5 years straight. That the sister of a city councilor lived on our street was surely just coincidence, as was the fact that for 5 years straight the snow was pushed AWAY from her side of the street and ONTO my car.
February 6, 2010, 1:23 pmpchuck says:
Last year, our part of the country got a record amount of snow for the entire winter. Several times we got record-breaking 24 hour snowfalls. The mayor of my city was criticized for not responding properly to the mismanaged snow removal operations several days after the storms. She made the gaffe of telling critics, “don’t worry about it, it is snow and it will eventually melt.” Luckily for her, she was in the first year of a four year term and this year we have had a really mild winter.
February 6, 2010, 4:05 pmpublic_defender says:
One reason that so much money is devoted to snow removal is that voters demand it. Politicians know that if they don’t clear the streets, they will be cleaning their office. So politicians know that no matter how much it costs, they have to clear the streets and freeways of snow.
As to the cost, part of the reason a snow removal truck bills at $300 an hour is that the owner must invest a ton of money, and then only gets to earn money for snow removal for a very limited number of days. And for freeway work, strapping a plow onto a pickup just won’t cut it.
February 6, 2010, 4:07 pmBT says:
Snow is how Jane Byrne became the mayor of Chicago after Richard J. Daley’s death in the late 1970s. And now, 30+ years later if there is a hint of snow the plows and salt trucks are out. So as others have noted above, voters are not forgiving of poor snow removal service.
February 6, 2010, 4:34 pmsnowed_in says:
So if the government doesn’t come down your street and plow the snow, how many of you are prepared to shovel out in front of your houses?
If you want to get yourself out of the snow, pick up a shovel and start doing what you can do.
And that, gentlemen, would be the heart of libertarian philosphy. The problem is that most libertarians I know would sit around discussing what’s wrong with the government rather than pick up a shovel themselves and start digging out.
February 6, 2010, 4:35 pmJimmy S. says:
I think plenty of libertarians would be quite willing to form a homeowner’s association with their neighbors and hire a private contractor to plow the roads in their neighborhood–provided that the government quit collecting taxes from them to fund services it was no longer offering.
February 6, 2010, 4:49 pmsnowed_in says:
Jimmy S.: You missed my point. My point is PICK UP A SHOVEL AND START SHOVELING, yourself.
In the 1920s in rural areas of this country, that is exactly how the community would dig out from snow.
February 6, 2010, 4:56 pmCornellian says:
Hey I’m all for libertarian self-help remedies for the problem of snow – I moved to Southern California.
February 6, 2010, 5:12 pmSean O'Hara says:
The government doesn’t plow my street. A private contractor hired by my home-owners association does it — though half the time one of my neighbors has cleared the road with their own plows.
The only roads I rely upon the government to clear are the ones owned by the government, built with my tax dollars.
February 6, 2010, 5:14 pmChrisIowa says:
Sometimes I do shovel the street upstream from my driveway. That way there’s less snow for the snowplow to leave in front of my driveway. The snow is easier to deal with before its piled up.
Snow removal guys around here are contractors or landscapers making use of their construction equipment in the off season.
February 6, 2010, 5:14 pmmack says:
Well I’m lucky I don’t have much of a lane, maybe an eighth of a mile, so if it’s bad I might have to spend 6 to 8 hours shoveling. Usually if it’s under a couple of feet I just run the 4×4 up and down it a few times. If it’s really bad then my neighbors will ususlly just show up with their tractors and plow it out, of course if there is any wind it will start drifting and ya have to shovel out some more. Occassionally with a lot of snow and wind, I may miss a day of work cause I have to spend a couple days shoveling – very rare but that’s not so bad – unless the power is off for more than a couple days. If I lived somewhere where it really snowed a lot all the time then I’d see about getting a deuce and a half and putting a blade on it. Wish I had the money and could justify it to myself and the wife, would love to have one. The snow does make it easy to see the deer, coyote, and critter tracks. And our young lab loves this weather, he especially likes to break through the ice on the pond and get in the water – wife was freaking out over it the first time he did it, thinking he was going to drown or freeze to death – she’s such a townie. Course it is too thick for him to get through it now.
The county usually does a good job making a pass through by 5 or 6am most days, though if it is really bad it may take a day or so. Usually I’m gone before they come through, you can usually drive even a car in a foot and a half of snow – as long as the drifts don’t get too high – anything over that and you need a 4×4 and if it’s really bad over 3 foot ya probably should just stay home. As I live on a dead end road, sometimes if it takes too long, the neighborhood gets out with their tactors and plows and clean out the road so people can get to the main road.
The only thing that is annoying is city folks who get mad when I’m an hour late for their delivery; after I got up at midnight; shoveled 3 or 4 hours to get out; and then drove 30 mph on snowy, slick, and drifting roads for a 75 mile route that takes 6 hours instead of the usual 3 or 4. I could get it to them on time but the company doesn’t have the stuff ready to go early enough. Country folk don’t complain cause they know, and appreciate the effort.
Enjoy your snow out east – we only got a dusting here of a few inches this time. I do wish this global warming would hurry up – I want to ride my bike and get out shooting when it’s warm – to much of a wimp to ride like some do in this weather with a side-car.
February 6, 2010, 6:16 pmA Snow Removal Expert Comments on Snow Removal Costs | Liberal Whoppers says:
[...] reading here: A Snow Removal Expert Comments on Snow Removal Costs [...]
February 6, 2010, 6:55 pmSitnah7 says:
When I was in undergrad, one of the things I did for money was work as a route leader for my college’s snow crew. I called all the other students at 4:00 a.m. after a snowfall to wake them up, and then we would go outside and shovel and salt the campus areas that plows couldn’t reach (e.g. stairs, ramps, landings, etc.). We got paid pretty well for a part-time job, earning $20 per trip outside, even if it was only a 15-minute re-salting job, with large snowfalls often requiring 4-5 trips in a day.
I bring this up because, according to one of my professors, there used to be a snow crew staffed by the college professoriate. So, it would appear that if you are a professor at a small liberal arts college, you need not choose between a school debt-ridden life of letters and the joys of early-morning shoveling— you can have the best of both worlds (or something like that)!
February 6, 2010, 7:23 pmCurmudgeon Geographer says:
Shoveling one’s sidewalks, fine. But shoveling the street? That’s crazy talk, and I’m not even saying that affectionately. Especially in a time when owning vehicles capable of attaching plows (not shoveling) snow is nearly verboten. How many putput hybrids are going to be able to move snow around the neighborhood? When society gets the state’s hint and jumps at hybrids then it becomes all the more the state’s responsibility to step up to the plate for snow removal.
February 6, 2010, 9:30 pmLarryA says:
In the 1920s the average age at death was 40 or so. Most of the people on my street are considerably older. A homeowner association contract makes a lot of sense.
That is if it snowed. Sure Texas gets hot, but you don’t have to shovel hot.
February 7, 2010, 1:19 amA. Zarkov says:
Either the infant mortality was high or that figure is not right. What was the average age of people who survived until 20?
February 7, 2010, 4:08 amPete Hallman says:
A. Zarkov: “Either the infant mortality was high or that figure is not right. What was the average age of people who survived until 20?”
I’d say about 20.
February 7, 2010, 10:13 amDeep Lurker says:
You’re confusing libertarianism and autarky. Libertarians are generally fans of Adam Smith and believers in the division of labor.
The “libertarian philosophy” is about being free to choose who you think can do the best job at the least cost. Sometimes that will be you yourself (since you’re there and can start right away). Sometimes it will be a neighborhood teen with a shovel looking to earn some extra money. Sometimes it will be a guy with a plow hired by the local HOA. Sometimes it might even be the local government, although libertarians are generally skeptical about the efficiency of government action.
February 7, 2010, 10:43 ampublic_defender says:
In practice, there’s not a real difference between homeowner associations and small town government. You have to be a member of either to buy a house under their control. Both have the power to effectively tax you. Both have a lot of power over you. Both can use that power well or abuse it. But you have a lot more legal protections against a small town government than any “private association.” One example, try to sue your homeowner association, and watch their legal bill be assessed on your house if you lose.
February 7, 2010, 2:29 pmHm says:
call mr. plow, that’s my name, that name again is Mr. Plow
February 7, 2010, 3:10 pmBrooks Lyman says:
I keep an old (1978) Jeep with a plow operating – sort of: Rusted out, starts hard, brakes aren’t very good, but it runs – to plow my fairly long driveway. After every winter of this rather light duty (snow-plowing wise), there’s always things to be fixed. When you’re plowing lots of driveways and parking lots as a business, the wear and tear on the vehicles is tremendous, and you can’t get by with a little Jeep: you need a large 4×4 pickup truck or larger, and these are not inexpensive. After a few winters of heavy snow, a lot of the vehicle’s useful life has been expended, so the write-off period is relatively short.
Most people who are looking for a used pickup truck are very concerned that it hasn’t been used for plowing (unless cost is an object) because they don’t want to inherit a lot of powertrain problems caused by the previous owner’s plowing activities.
So $300 per hour may sound high, but when you consider that a large pickup truck with plow can easily cost in the neighborhood of $40K, add in the short useful life, repairs and regular maintenance and the hourly pay for the driver, it adds up fast. On the other hand, such equipment does move the snow rapidly, so many driveways and small parking lots can be plowed in a quarter to half an hour, which sure beats shoveling or a snowblower.
February 7, 2010, 4:03 pmMalvolio says:
Came for this, left satisficed.
February 7, 2010, 11:05 pmJim N. says:
First I got to be the expert on VC, and now a post concerning my comment! Professor Anderson, you have made my week! Well, actually the fact that we have 15 inches of snow coming tomorrow night has made my week, but your a close second.
February 7, 2010, 11:20 pmJim N. says:
Very well said. $40,000 truck, $6,000 plow, $2,000 salter, few grand in insurance per vehicle per year, $20 per hour driver with all workers comp and unemployment, and maintenance IS the real killer. Front ends and transmissions every few years, and electrical/hydraulic problems just about constantly. And this is with a fleet of trucks all under 6 years old. I don’t know how the guys that run the older stuff can even make money. And you are correct, don’t ever, ever buy a truck that was used to plow. I am always, always very careful to tell people, and document that it was a plow truck and it’s sold “as is, with no warranties expressed or implied”>
February 7, 2010, 11:28 pmsecond history says:
Great, so now you can shovel mud…..
February 7, 2010, 11:37 pmDallas Landscaping says:
My wife and I discovered your page and found it to be quite entertaining. My wife and I appreciated your news and I look forward to seeing more from your site again. How do I know when there is more articles that are posted here on this site?
March 18, 2010, 3:10 pmExpert Savings Advice says:
Great post. Thank you for the information.
Expert Savings Advice
*********
Alyssa
June 28, 2010, 8:08 pm