Tom Grey: likely, or impossible.What if many GREEKS in the Greek government are shorting Greece bonds, and planning on continuing to spend until … who exactly? … kicks them out?
What are the enforcement mechanisms in that Growth and Stability Pact again?

Bond market will kick tem out.

As a citizen of Eurozone, here is my unqualified opinion: If Greek government will go bust, this will weaken Euro and be basically good news to everybody, even other PIIGS countries – except banks holding Greek obligations.

However, I do not await this will happen. What is more probable is big EU countries will force Greece to accept IMF loan with IMF conditions. The big guys will provide the funds to IMF, but this will face much less public outcry then lending directly to Greece, and in Greece, the ‘bad guy’ will be IMF, not EU.

Fat Man: Wanna bet? I think I could get 45 states to vote against that.

I think the point is that it won’t be up to a vote. What prof. Anderson is talking about is sticking the other states with the bill, thus forcing their hand.

California … got better positioning to be able to force the US as a whole to internalize its difficulties …

Wanna bet? I think I could get 45 states to vote against that.

Tom Grey: What are the enforcement mechanisms in that Growth and Stability Pact again?

Fines. :-)

In fact, the first and primary ‘rule of law’ is enforcement.
Lawyers and academics tend to forget this; tho bullies on every playground in the world learn it fast.
Bullies enforce their rules, first, and what they enforce becomes ‘real law’. Until some bigger group or person enforces some other real law; like teachers, or the police.

Agreements without a credible enforcement mechanism are, perhaps, worse than useless — allowing the cheaters to do the bad behaviour but making the (future) cheated think that the cheating is less likely, or impossible.

What if many GREEKS in the Greek government are shorting Greece bonds, and planning on continuing to spend until … who exactly? … kicks them out?
What are the enforcement mechanisms in that Growth and Stability Pact again?

I was referring to the amount of time that they spend with family, not how many children they have — two very different issues, in my book. Having known several Greek families here in the US, and having been to Greece, I can certainly verify that Greeks love spending time with their family, both nuclear and extended, far more than the average American.

One special memory: While watching the gorgeous sunset near the windmills on Mykonos, perched on a cliff, we saw this gorgeous young greek man take his little son by the hand and walked over to the rocks near the water. They spent almost an hour together, doing nothing by watching the sunset, and his kid played on the rocks. When the sun went down, they strolled back to town. The next day, we say father and son, again hand in hand, walking through town, greeting the locals and sitting with friends at the cafe.

My friend and I commented that this father probably spent more time with his son in just those two days than most American fathers spend in a whole year.

BTW, we after many drinks with some locals, we finally got up the courage to ask, what’s up with all the guys hanging at the cafes. Doesn’t anyone have work here? He took a long drag on his cigarette and said laconically, “in Greece, we work when we have to….”

james: According to the Greeks, there is a significant influx of poor, illegal Turkish immigrants into Greece. Since the Greeks and the Turks dont like each other this may be nothing, but it is an issue that Greece has raised with the EU.

Not just Turks, but refugees from all over the Middle East (cough – Iraq – cough), and further away still. Greece is the easiest place to get into the EU (= promised land) these days, just a short boat ride away from Turkey. (Link)

Robert: Does Greece have a burgeoning class of folks from the neighboring states crossing their border illegally and soaking up social services? No one has mentioned that. Plus the ruling political class– the public service unions have cut themselves a huge chunk of pension funds out of the state revenues…it that also a problem in Greece?Greece has suffered environmental devastation, being completely deforested and loosing most of its topsoil in the last 1K years. California in slightly better shape.

According to the Greeks, there is a significant influx of poor, illegal Turkish immigrants into Greece. Since the Greeks and the Turks dont like each other this may be nothing, but it is an issue that Greece has raised with the EU.

Yes, with one of the highest state tax burdens in the country and a budget that’s nearly tripled since 1990

Let’s at least get the facts straight:

1. CA’s tax burden puts it 18th in the nation relative to income (based on 2005 data). Cite.

2. It makes no sense to say that the budget has “tripled” unless you account for inflation and population growth. Here is a chart which shows state spending as a percentage of Gross State Product. CA is right in the middle, identical to Nebraska.

Goldman Sachs? This is a tad ironic considering how Goldman Sachs has helped Greece (for a *cough* small fee) do some creative booking to hide some of their debt from the other EU countries.

Yes, with one of the highest state tax burdens in the country and a budget that’s nearly tripled since 1990 obviously the problem is that those durn dirty Rethuglicans thwarting the demands of imaginary throngs for yet more and higher taxes. Maybe California should consider cutting back on 90% pensions and other goodies instead of further raising the tax burden or closing homeless shelters.

We’re getting into Arrow’s theorem territory: any perfect democracy in fact is a dictatorship.

Randy: Family is more important than jobs or anything else.

Really? The average Greek woman has 1.33 children, or fewer than women in any Western European country — fewer even than mainland China and far fewer than in the U.S.

is interest on those bonds tax-free for California residents? I guess not or they would be closer to treasuries…

You guess wrong.

The other solution is to drill for oil and natural gas. There is plenty of black gold under ground and off shore for Californians to live like Norwegians.

Greece has suffered environmental devastation, being completely deforested and loosing most of its topsoil in the last 1K years. California in slightly better shape.