In the last week, I’ve had two colleagues in academic and professional circles object to blog comments they think I have written about the Fourth Amendment based on comments left here by commenter “Oren.” Just to clarify, I am not “Oren.” My name is spelled with an “i,” not an “e,” and I sign my name here as “Orin Kerr.” Given the apparent likelihood of confusion, as well as the tendency of “Oren” to leave comments in threads related to my academic work, I thought that might be worth clarifying.
James N. Gibson says:
Why don’t you just contact the server, get the Email to this person and ask them politely to change their moniker for this site.
February 20, 2010, 2:20 amVisitor Again says:
Did they say “Never mind“?
February 20, 2010, 3:43 amDavid Bernstein says:
I’ve never seen you and “Oren” in the same room at the same time. Hmm…
February 20, 2010, 4:26 amOren says:
Sorry for the inconvenience. I’ve tried to dispel any confusion that occurs.
:-(
February 20, 2010, 4:31 amleo marvin says:
Then why the picture? On top of the name confusion, now we know you also look alike.
February 20, 2010, 4:42 amOren says:
No seriously, I feel terrible.
I appreciate Orin’s blogging immensely and the last thing I would possibly want to repay his kindness with is mistaken attribution of my stupidity to him.
February 20, 2010, 5:11 amBT says:
Oren comments here fairly regularly and it never occurred to me that there would be any confusion. Even I, a guy who graduated in the top half of the bottom third of my highschool class of 900+, can tell the difference between Oren and Orin Kerr. So much for the reading comprehension of certain academics.
February 20, 2010, 7:10 amReinhold says:
There goes three seconds I’ll never get back . . .
February 20, 2010, 7:12 amJeff Walden says:
I find I have to do a very small double-take when skimming comments and seeing one by a commenter whose name has the pronunciation “or-in”, regardless that the two are spelled differently and that one always includes a last name. It’s kind of frustrating that it’s necessary, but what are you going to do? Stifle one or the other? I see no reasonable option but to grin and bear it — maybe even laugh every so often when the problem is particularly notable, as here. :-)
February 20, 2010, 7:52 amAnderson says:
Not only is Prof. Kerr completely wrong about the Fourth Amendment, he can’t even spell his own first name correctly.
… Some of Prof. Kerr’s colleagues are evidently not among the very brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree.
I do think it would be silly for Oren to change his handle based on the misunderstandings of some reading-impaired academics. But then, I do comment on Prof. Anderson’s threads, so I’m probably biased.
February 20, 2010, 8:02 amshg says:
The “apparent likelihood of confusion” isn’t attributable to Oren, but to your “two colleagues in academic and professional circles.” People are allowed to have names similar to yours. In fact, there may even be another Orin lurking about. It could happen.
These academic teacups really need to get out more. This is just too ridiculous. Did they cry when they thought it was you saying mean things about them?
February 20, 2010, 8:06 amgeokstr says:
Hah! That’s nothing. Green Bay used to have a fairly well known player that couldn’t spell or even pronounce his own last name correctly.
February 20, 2010, 8:49 amAutist says:
Just for the record, I’m not Oren either. Nor Orin.
February 20, 2010, 9:02 amDaniel Chapman says:
They got trolled. Awesome.
February 20, 2010, 9:15 amlucia says:
Oren could consider changing his handle to something like “Oren T”. I ask my blog commenters with identical names to slightly modify in cases where confusion can arise. Now there is Andrew_KY, Andrew_FL etc. Disambiguation helps in cases where one Andrew would arrive, read the other Andrew’s comment, and feel the need to tell people he didn’t think what the other name had posted.
February 20, 2010, 9:18 amLucia says:
Lucia: If this were a concern, I could think of other problems that could be fixed first.
February 20, 2010, 9:23 amDonBoy says:
My rule of thumb is, when two people make the same mistake, I figure not that they’re both idiots, but that something is confusing.
February 20, 2010, 9:36 amOrout Cur says:
Savvy?
February 20, 2010, 9:43 amcorneille1640 says:
Someone who comments here uses the same name as an established law professor who I know from going to monthly seminars on legal history. The person who comments under that name, however, makes such poor comments that this confusion can be damaging to anyone not already established.
Where am I going with all this? It’s a good thing that Mr. Kerr is (as far as I know) already established in his profession and the misidentification his academic peers are guilty of will probably hurt him less than if he was less well-established. I guess that’s the risk of blogging under one’s own name. Since I’m not established at all in the profession to which I supposedly expire, I blog under a pseudonym.
February 20, 2010, 10:05 amlucia says:
It seem to me that there is at least some concern; Orin Kerr wrote a blog post to clarify that he is not Oren. At the same time, Orin Kerr isn’t horrifically upset or he’d think up, implement and enforce a solution himself.
I’m sure there could be other solutions than the one I suggested.
Even if my solution was the only one possible, I don’t think Oren should be forced to change his handle. Even if I did think so, this isn’t my blog so I couldn’t enforce it anyway. I’m just suggesting a courtesy that’s in Oren’s power to grant if he wishes to do so.
If, as you claim, you actually can think of other solutions maybe you could suggest them? Lots of us are bloggers and creating solutions to help disambiguate people discussing in comments could be helpful to other bloggers.
February 20, 2010, 10:08 amLi'or says:
The most obvious difference between the names is that “Orin” likely lacks the initial consonant of “Oren”. Unfortunately this distinction is lost in English orthography. Had Oren decided to use
as his handle …
February 20, 2010, 10:27 amdee nile says:
The question is does Oren owe Orin a beer or is it the other way ’round?
February 20, 2010, 10:30 amDave N. says:
I am not sure that always works. While I am neither Orin Kerr nor Oren (both of whom make worthwhile contributions), on a couple of occassions I have felt it necessary to point out I am not David Nieporent, who also comments here.
February 20, 2010, 10:34 amOren Reich says:
Can someone please explain to me what’s going on here?
February 20, 2010, 10:38 amOrrin Hatch says:
Just for the record, I am neither “Orin Kerr” nor “Oren.”
Of course, I am not Senator Hatch, either.
February 20, 2010, 10:42 amShelbyC says:
Hmmmm…. Orin, give me $20 or I’ll start using the moniker “Oriin”.
February 20, 2010, 10:52 amMark Field says:
Ok, but are you Spock?
February 20, 2010, 10:55 amOren Reich says:
Orrin, are you Israeli? My mom’s Israeli, hence the name.
February 20, 2010, 10:56 amcorneille1640 says:
What’s the consonant, a glottal stop? (I’m just curious.)
February 20, 2010, 11:00 amFub says:
Such a short thread, and already two thread winners!
February 20, 2010, 11:10 amBruce Boyden says:
Since I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Orin and Oren engaged in debate in the comments before, Orin’s knowledge of 4th Amendment law would be the least of his problems if they were the same person.
February 20, 2010, 11:35 amlucia says:
I have to admit that if Oren’s last name is “Kadinsky” and he was open to changing his handle to reduce confusion, he would not switch to “Oren K” which would only make matters worse.
February 20, 2010, 12:00 pmAutist says:
Nor am I any of the above.
February 20, 2010, 12:01 pmtroll_dc2 says:
I arrived at this blog about the time when Orin Kerr was taking a leave of absence to assist Sen. Cornyn but was still posting intermittently. Meanwhile, Oren was posting regularly. It took me a while to realize that they were different people, especially when commenters would refer to Prof. Kerr as Orin.
Still, I find it odd that someone would actually assert that Prof. Kerr did not know how to spell his own first name. Such a comment makes me suspicious of the thinking capacity of the person who wrote that.
February 20, 2010, 12:27 pmtroll_dc2 says:
Also, I should note that I rarely have the problem of being confused with someone else.
February 20, 2010, 12:42 pmCato The Elder says:
I was wondering if your two names had the same etymological roots though. Wikipedia told me that “Oren” means “ash” or “pine” in Hebrew, but there’s no corresponding entry for “Orin”. Do you know, Prof. Kerr?
February 20, 2010, 1:27 pmOren says:
The folks are, I’m first gen American.
February 20, 2010, 2:03 pmCJColucci says:
I am not Spartacus.
February 20, 2010, 2:19 pmDaniel Chapman says:
Yeah, I thought about making a Spartacus joke, but nothing I could come up with could top Mark Field’s Nimoy comment.
February 20, 2010, 2:42 pmyankee says:
Now I’m severely tempted to change my handle to “Orin Kirr.”
February 20, 2010, 3:15 pmjukeboxgrad says:
If Oren were pressured to change his handle (not that anyone is seriously doing that) I think we should all respond by changing our own handles to Oren. As a protest.
February 20, 2010, 3:36 pmjukeboxgrad says:
I’ve also never seen them photographed together. Likewise for Yasser Arafat and Ringo Starr.
February 20, 2010, 3:44 pmBruce Hayden says:
I wondered how this thread could get up to 42 (so far) comments. Now I know. Just what we need on a Saturday.
I think that maybe the answer is for Orin to start using just his last name, or maybe with an honorific, such as “Prof. Kerr” or “Doctor Kerr“. Or, maybe just use his first and last initials – a lot of posters do that with EV. Or, maybe just ban anyone here with a name deceptively similar (under the standard likelihood of confusion standard) to any of the Conspirators, at least without a clarifying last name.
February 20, 2010, 3:54 pmOrin Kerr says:
For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t mind it terribly if “Oren” would add a last name (or additional term) just to avoid confusion. It’s not a huge deal, but in one case the confusion interfered with a significant professional opportunity. Oh, and of course I realize there was no intent to confuse; it just happens to be a relatively rare name, and our combined participation in the comment threads has led to the confusion among those who aren’t sure of the right spelling.
February 20, 2010, 3:59 pmCornellian says:
I’m guessing you’re also not Rappaport.
February 20, 2010, 4:07 pmO-Ren Ishii says:
Take a good look at my face. Look at my eyes. Do I look familiar?
February 20, 2010, 4:10 pmohiolawdog says:
I wonder how often Judge Kazinski has a similar problem.
February 20, 2010, 7:18 pmAuren Kir says:
Please note that I am also not Orin Kerr. Thank you.
February 20, 2010, 7:45 pmOren says:
Done (well, this is my last thread as Oren).
February 20, 2010, 8:39 pmThePosterFormelyKnownAsOren says:
I don’t know if I like this actually. When I agreed, I didn’t realize how hard it would be to come up with a new handle. I’m not quite ready for the FirstnameLastname plunge. On the other hand, I’d like to continue with some name that associates me with what I’ve written before.
JBG, I can assure you I don’t feel “pressured” except that it seems like the decent and polite thing to do.
February 20, 2010, 8:41 pmOrenNotKerr says:
Is this confusing?
February 20, 2010, 8:42 pmzippypinhead says:
Nuts! A VC thread that’s an absolutely perfect straight-man setup for Sarcastro, and he/she/it is nowhere in sight…
Professor Kerr, IMHO, you really need to find a better class of “academic and professional” colleague to hang around with. I hope those clowns at least buy all the drinks for your group when y’all kick back after a long day of grading crim pro finals!
February 20, 2010, 8:55 pmNot Orin's Sockpuppet says:
No, it’s perfect! Although you might also want to get one of Professor Kerr’s clueless, complaining “colleagues” to trademark that blog handle for you. Then you can have the “colleague” sue Professor Kerr under the Lanham Act for you, alleging his unregistered tradename is deceptively confusing with your registered and legally protected mark.
Trust me, even tho the proposed suit is guaranteed to take a fast trip thru Rule 12(b)(6), and then a slower and more delicious jaunt through Rule 11, it’s probably no goofier than half the hypotheticals the clueless “colleagues” concoct for their hapless students.
February 20, 2010, 9:05 pmDave N. says:
That’s because troll_dc1 posts elsewhere.
February 20, 2010, 9:27 pmArthur Kirkland says:
As mentioned before, Prof. Kerr, the longer you hang out in the Olin-Bradley-Searle-Scaife section of the academy, the more problems you will encounter.
Run for daylight, professor.
February 20, 2010, 9:35 pmleo marvin says:
No, but it would be pretty funny if now someone confused you with Jonathan Adler.
BTW, If I were you I’d feel bad too, knowing the confusion cost Orin an opportunity, and I agree with your decision to disambiguate, but I’m pretty amazed anyone would base a consequential decision on blog comments without carefully identifying the author. IOW, I never would have imagined the name similarity could plausibly do any harm, so I wouldn’t second guess not having changed it sooner.
February 20, 2010, 9:44 pmDave Hardy says:
I could handle a name change proceeding for either, or better yet, both, so that everything would be made clear. With “Elvis Presley ____” or “Lee Harvey ___” I think there would be no confusion.
February 20, 2010, 10:05 pmneurodoc says:
Okay (not to be confused with OK), from the medical world…
Years ago at Hopkins there was a chronic schizophrenic who maintained she was Mary Magdalene. She had been followed on the psychiatry service for years, when one day another woman claiming to be Mary Magdalene presented herself to the clinic. The residents turned for advice to their renowned chief, Adolf Meyers, who suggested they put the two women with the same delusion together in a room and see what would happen. After about an hour, the Mary-come-lately one came out and announced to everyone that the long-time patient was the “real” Mary Magdalene.
I can’t vouch for the authenticity of that story, and one might wonder whether a delusional patient could be persuade to let go of their delusion in such a way. But I always liked the story and I offer it here where the issue is which Orin/Oren is going to let go of their delusion that they are the “real” Orin/Oren. (BTW, has anyone asked Orrin Hatch what he thinks about coattailers?)
February 20, 2010, 10:13 pmneurodoc says:
It must happen that mischievious/malicious individuals adopt as pseudonyms the real names of others and post things to blogs those others would never say/write. (A form of identity theft?) If one were the unfortunate victim of such, what could they do? Would they have to chase around the blogosphere denying that they were the real authors of what was posted using their name? Would they be able to put a stop to it without going to great expense and effort by contacting the ISP the other party was using for their mischief?
Obviously not what is going on here between Oren and Orin, but it suggest the possibility to me. Does this happen out there?
February 20, 2010, 10:30 pmArthur Kirkland says:
Why is the woman’s faith so casually dismissed and even mocked? Do you not believe in miracles, of which there are at least two for every saint? Who is any of us to say this woman is not Mary Magdalene. Perhaps the validity of her claim will be recognized a couple of thousand years from now more than, apparently, it is acknowledged.
February 20, 2010, 10:54 pmjukeboxgrad says:
ThePosterFormelyKnownAsOren:
I know, and I agree. And I only said something about pressure for the purpose of making a little joke. Emphasis on “little.”
==================
leo:
Exactly what I was thinking. I think it also reveals a provincial attitude about ethnic/unusual names. This would never be an issue if they were both named John, right? Because everyone knows that there is more than one John in the world, right? Well, some people need to get a clue and realize that there is also more than one Orin/Oren in the world.
Aside from that, the words are spelled differently, in a way that should be obvious to anyone who is not a careless reader. And careless reading is forgivable in many lines of work, but law isn’t one of them.
So I support Orin’s approach to the situation, and I support Oren’s approach to the situation, and I think the other parties come off looking not too sharp.
February 20, 2010, 11:20 pmDave N. says:
Gosh, a thread in which I can completely agree with JBG (and Leo Marvin too!).
And OrenNotKerr — good name choice. Personally, I was never confused. I am sorry that could not be said of Orin Kerr’s colleagues.
February 20, 2010, 11:44 pmLi'or says:
cornielle1640: yes, in “Oren” the vowel “O” comes after a glottal stop. As far as I know “Orin” is not a semitic name so it probably doesn’t. Spelling it ‘oren would be more accurate (well, to conform with English grammar I should capitalize the since quote symbol but I don’t know how)
February 21, 2010, 12:08 amjukeboxgrad says:
dave n:
I agree. I also like this: “OrenNotOrin.” I like that because it calls attention to the fact that certain people who should know how to read don’t know how to read. Same thing for this one: “OrenWithAnE.” Whereas “OrenWithAnE, Dummy” is probably going too far.
February 21, 2010, 1:39 amleo marvin says:
Try telling George Foreman this is confusing.
February 21, 2010, 2:13 amjukeboxgrad says:
“I like my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while.” – G. Marx.
No need inventing new solutions when a perfectly good solution has already been devised. I see no reason why we can’t apply the Foreman solution here. Orin can henceforth be known as Monk and Oren can henceforth be known as Big Wheel. That leaves Little George in reserve in case another Orin/Oren shows up.
February 21, 2010, 3:11 amNickM says:
Craig Oren occasionally comments on this blog (he’s a law prof, though not a 4th Am guy).
Imagine if all three were on the same thread.
Nick
February 21, 2010, 7:46 amBuddy Hinton says:
It briefly crossed my mind that “Oren” might be a sock puppet because s/he seems to have a similar outlook to Professor, but, on balance, it is pretty clear that they are diffo from the content of their comments, and also because Professor Kerr seems to be too serious and solemn for something as zany as sockpuppetry (which I don’t think is necessarily a bad thing, although it often is).
February 21, 2010, 8:12 amsweeping up... says:
Fussy, fussy, fussy…
February 21, 2010, 10:33 amLaura(southernxyl) says:
neurodoc, what’s funny about your story, of course, is that the second woman is still deluded – she just transferred her delusion over to the first one.
I stuck “southernxyl” onto Laura a long time ago because other people had the temerity to be named “Laura” and refer to themselves as such. I’d be happy to use my last name, but I share it with my husband and daughter; they’d possibly be identifiable by somebody somewhere in my blog, so in deference to their wishes I try not to use it online.
The Orin/Oren thing is interesting to me b/c it’s my opinion that written and spoken English are really two different languages. If I’m reading something that was written by someone whose voice I know I sometimes “hear” that person reading it but most of the time I don’t associate sounds with writing AFAIK. It’s why textspeak (can I C U 2day kind of stuff) confuses and irritates me. I suspect that this is true to varying degrees with different people, and it’s why I knew right away that Oren was not Orin but others might be confused by it. BTW, I think my husband hears what he reads much more than I do, and I think that’s partly why I read faster.
February 21, 2010, 10:40 amLaura(southernxyl) says:
Also, “I am not ‘Oren’” makes me think of this:
February 21, 2010, 10:56 amProf. S. says:
Doesn’t this statement suffer from the same problem of the “you don’t owe me a beer” type? Should you really be embracing your alter ego?
February 21, 2010, 11:00 amjccamp says:
Well, you guys just better hope that none of Orin Kerr, Oren, Daniel Oren, Orrin Hatch, O-Ren Ishii, Oren Reich et al. ever make it on the terrorist no-fly list. You’re all screwed then…
February 21, 2010, 12:18 pmjccamp says:
Although, personally, I might hesitate allowing this guy on any airplane….
February 21, 2010, 12:24 pmSammy Finkelman says:
Coukd you change your name in some way, like adding an adjective?
February 21, 2010, 1:11 pmSammy Finkelman says:
That looks pretty good. I take it this is based on John NOT Volokh?
February 21, 2010, 1:14 pmSammy Finkelman says:
And not Orrin Knox either I assume.
February 21, 2010, 1:21 pmDuffy Pratt says:
77 comments so far, and no one has contributed a Knock Knock joke?
February 21, 2010, 4:18 pmFred the Fourth says:
Obviously both Oren and Orin (and Orrin and Oren R.) and all the rest of you while we’re at it, should be called “Bruce”. It will make things much simpler…
also: Rule 6: There is NO Rule 6!
February 21, 2010, 9:01 pmneurodoc says:
1st P: “Knock, knock.”
February 21, 2010, 9:05 pm2nd P: “Who’s there?”
1st P: “Or(e/i)n?”
2nd P: “Or(e/i)n who?”
…(still trying to come up with punchline)
Laura(southernxyl) says:
Orinotherwords, “ring, ring”.
February 21, 2010, 9:08 pmneurodoc says:
Yes, the second woman gave up her own delusion that she was Mary Magdalene, and in effect adopted the first woman’s delusion, that is that the first woman was the “real” Mary Magdalene. I wonder if after awhile the second woman went back to believing herself Mary Magdalene again, or came up with a new delusion to explain things for herself. (Also, this might be seen as an atypical example of a folie a deux, with one not altogether person falling under the sway of another not altogether person, the result being a synergy of sorts.)
I do hope Oren and Orin can work things out between them, perhaps with the insights this Mary Magdalene story has to offer, without the need for psychiatric intervention to settle their identity problems.
February 21, 2010, 9:14 pmMilhouse says:
Li’or, there is no glottal stop before Oren, any more than there is in the middle of your name; it is spelled אורן, not עורן. (If your name were Li`or, it would mean “I have a hide”.)
Cato the Elder, Orin is a Lithuanian Jewish variant of Aaron.
February 21, 2010, 11:34 pmleo marvin says:
“Orin Monk” should appeal to his jazz sensibilities, though maybe even better would be “Thelonious Kerr.”
I doubt either of them will give up the delusion of being “Or[i/e]n.” I have a feeling they both need the eggs.
February 21, 2010, 11:44 pmLarryA says:
On the bright side, Orin now has evidence that “colleagues in academic and professional circles” are reading the blog.
February 22, 2010, 12:17 amOren Kir says:
Anyway, the fourth amendment was originally only intended to apply to searches for stolen pigs.
February 22, 2010, 7:23 pmmarkm says:
Neurodoc: I have no idea if there’s any reality behind the Mary Magdalene story, but there is a similar real experiment, from the 1950′s. Milton Rokeach found that the Ypsilanti (Michigan) State Hospital had three inmates who believed they were Jesus Christ, so he put them in the same ward and watched what developed. The study was published in a popular form as The Three Christs of Ypsilanti.
No one was cured. (No surprise there, but in the 1950′s psychiatrists had absolutely no effective treatment for schizophrenia and were ready to try anything – and this certainly was better than sticking an icepick into the patient’s brain). IIRC, and it’s been about 30 years since I read the book, the oldest and most rigid patient simply continued to insist that he was Jesus Christ, and the others were nuts. One of the younger ones wavered in his delusion for a while, but eventually just excluded the others from his world view (or something like that). But the third one came up with some really interesting theology so there could be many Christs.
February 24, 2010, 8:31 pm