I’m a Baylor fan, so I’m still mad about our game against Duke.
We had the same issue that Butler had. In the second half, we went for a basket and made it. Looked like we were fouled. But the refs called it charging against Butler/Baylor. Thus no basket (and no foul shot for 3). Would have been game-determinative here.
Maybe I’m too bitter, but I think Duke gets a few too many calls like that.
Texas Lawyer: I’m a Baylor fan, so I’m still mad about our game against Duke.We had the same issue that Butler had.In the second half, we went for a basket and made it.Looked like we were fouled.But the refs called it charging against Butler/Baylor.Thus no basket (and no foul shot for 3).Would have been game-determinative here.Maybe I’m too bitter, but I think Duke gets a few too many calls like that.
Ken Pomeroy, on Twitter (April 1), calculated that Duke’s odds of winning that game went from 34% to 49% the instant that call was made against Baylor.
What was the point spread going into the game? Was Butler supposed to come within 10 points of Duke, let alone fall short by just a point at the buzzer?
Yes. Duke won tonight. Butler is also full of good guys. Thank goodness that the bad guys, like Huggins, didn’t win.
Texas Lawyer: Maybe I’m too bitter, but I think Duke gets a few too many calls like that.
Baylor pushed in the back on nearly every rebound in that game, and was almost never called for the foul. I don’t know how you could say that the fouls favored Duke in the WVU game, particularly after that egregious technical. And there were plenty of ridiculous bad calls favoring Butler in this game– Scheyer was hit on the arm during 3s at least twice, Zoubek’s third foul he was clearly in position and that should have been a charge not a block, etc. Everyone has rose colored glasses, but I can’t see how anyone dispassionately would watch Duke’s last three games and think that they got the advantage on calls.
You want a team that gets calls? Try UNC, which was somehow 3rd in the nation in not fouling opponents on field goal attempts (whistled 24.5% of the time), not Duke, which was pretty average in getting calls for and against all year. Butler was also fouled a ton this year, but presumably a lot of that was being much better than Horizon League competition.
neurodoc: A superbly played game, heartbreaking outcome. What was the point spread going into the game? Was Butler supposed to come within 10 points of Duke, let alone fall short by just a point at the buzzer?
The point spread was 7, a number agreed upon by quite a few computer prediction systems. Butler played very well, but they were ranked in the top 15 all year, and they didn’t make it to the final game on luck.
gab: Missed call on the Scheyer tip-in also.Should have been offensive basket interference and the bucket waved off.
No way. It looked that way from the initial camera angle, but from the behind the basket replay it was utterly obvious that the ball was way out of the cylinder. I’ll have to assume that you didn’t see that angle.
Texas Lawyer: Looked like we were fouled. But the refs called it charging against Butler/Baylor. Thus no basket (and no foul shot for 3). Would have been game-determinative here.
Zoubek’s third foul was a travesty. He clearly was there to take the charge, but was called for a block. Jon Scheyer was fouled on 3s several times (at least how they call it during the regular season, they hit his arm) and this crew doesn’t call it that way.
Speaking of other games, Baylor pushed in the back repeatedly on rebounds without it being called. The technical on Miles Plumlee in the West Virginia game was inappropriate, though the ref who called it is known for terrible technicals and a quick whistle. (And WVU had shot 9 free throws while Duke had none well into the second half.)
Texas Lawyer: I’m a Baylor fan, so I’m still mad about our game against Duke.
We had the same issue that Butler had.
In that you got the balance of the calls in your favor, but still couldn’t seal the deal? Zoubek’s third foul against him was terrible, he was clearly in position. Scheyer was fouled on 3s at least twice. Baylor spent most of that game pushing in the back on rebounds.
Zoubek’s third foul was a terrible call. He was there well in time. Jon Scheyer was fouled at least twice on three pointers. All teams and all fans can point to bad calls.
As someone who grew up in Durham, the vitriol that people express towards Duke has always amused me. Especially when those people have absolutely no connection to Duke other than maybe having once met someone who went to Duke.
Can’t believe many of you so-called basketball fans. Too biased for my liking. I don’t live in the U.S. and only watch because I love bball. Duke does not get the better of the calls. Not last night for sure! Were you watching the play under the Butler basket all night? I mean really watching? Were you watching the Butler players grabbing, pushing, holding, and doing everything possible to keep Duke players away from the basket. Very tough defence, but very illegal. The refs really bought into the all the hype and the inhouse fan support. Go back and watch the tape when you are ready to be an objective observer. No wait, that would not be possible since so many of you just seem to hate Duke. From my far away location, I just don’t get it.
I second objectivefan’s comment. Butler didn’t lose because the referees gave the game to Duke. As the TV play-by-play analysts noted on several occasions, and as televised instant replays demonstrated, calls were going both ways. On at least 6 or 8 occasions, a Butler player clearly fouled a Duke player and the refs refused to blow the whistle. The most significant of these no-calls occurred toward the end of the game, when Lance Thomas stole the ball and Shelvin Mack literally jumped on top of him, even as other Duke players were trying to call a timeout. The referees said Mack had tied the ball up, but the tie up occurred after a very conspicuous body slam. Had the referees called the obvious foul at that point in the game, thereby sending Thomas to the line, Duke likely would have won by a wider margin. Or maybe not. The point is: the referees made some mistakes–as they usually do–and that helped both teams. Although Butler played with tenacity and had a chance to win it, they didn’t. Duke is a deserving champion.
As much as I love to hate Duke (really, who doesn’t?), I have to remember that they’re just a bunch of college kids, too, and this is probably the biggest stage most of them will play on, too. They deserved it every bit as much as the Butler kids. Sure, they chose to attend the school with the highest douche-baggery quotient imaginable, but we can’t hold that against them.
Great game! Yeah, Duke got away with a block, but later Butler got away with one too.
No obvious bias in officiating, and the two teams both played excellent defense.
Would have liked to see Butler win, but neither team has anything to be ashamed of. It is just a shame that one team has to lose even when both play great ball.
It was a great game; I too would have loved to see a Butler upset, and they played with a lot of heart, but it came down to a handful of missed opportunities and unlucky breaks, not biased officiating from what I could see.
Tactically, the biggest factor was Butler’s failure to capitalize on opportunities created by its recognition that the proper response to Duke’s aggressive perimeter defense was driving to the basket. When Butler’s shorter players found themselves at the basket, however, attended by three taller defenders (it was always three, one of several illustrations of how effectively Duke players are schooled), they attempted hang-forever, fadeaway five-foot shots instead of snapping a pass to a teammate open along the three-point line (of which open teammates at least two existed). Duke easily, and repeatedly, blocked the bad shots.
It was a fine game, with well-matched teams. Butler was better than the average fifth-seeded mid-major striver. Duke was worse than the average first-seeded major conference power. Duke had more talent; Butler did not care.
Duke basketball outspends Butler basketball at least ten to one (and that is before the Sam Gilbert factor is considered). Ten years from now, the two things I will remember about this tournament are Da’Sean Butler and Butler.
Having graduated from a small mid-major school (actually, I don’t even think we could be called mid-major) who made it to the Sweet 16 this year, I would have loved to see another small school win it all. With that said, both teams played incredible basketball and that was definitely one of the best NCAA championship games I’ve seen in some years. I don’t think there was any real bias except an all around attitude of “let them play.”
And I agree with Arthur Kirkland, I will remember Butler and Da’Sean Butler. Here’s to hoping that he heals quickly.
Smooth, like a Rhapsody: Is there anyplace all things considered you’d rather have your blue-chip basketball recruit son play than at Duke? I can’t think of anyplace.
I can. Take a look at the success (or lack thereof) of Dukies that have gone on to the NBA. In the 20(!) years that Duke has been in the top echelon of college teams, there have only been three players that have stood out at all in the pros: Grant Hill, Carlos Boozer, and Shane Battier. Only Hill could charitably be mentioned among the elite.
If my kids had any athletic talent whatsoever, I’d want them to go to a program that would develop them to perform on the next level. In men’s basketball, that means North Carolina, or, as it pains me to say, UCLA.
Smooth, like a Rhapsody: Is there anyplace all things considered you’d rather have your blue-chip basketball recruit son play than at Duke? I can’t think of anyplace.
It would depend, in part, on whether
(a) he had a realistic wish for a strong career in the National Basketball Association;
(b) he wished to major in sociology (inside joke, but it makes a point);
(c) home games in Durham would be handy for people who care about him; and
(d) I believed the Duke program could survive the current coach’s retirement.
This is not intended to disparage Duke. Duke runs a decent program and is a good school. But the halo is an uneasy fit, as nearly anyone whose familiarity with college basketball extends beyond a television screen would tell you.
Whatever our filial feelings (and I’d recommend mine avoid Duke like the the plague – or should I say tobacco – and go to a top-ranked public university like Cornell, Michigan, Illinois, or UCLA to keep him in the wider cross-section of society we worked to expose him to over the years), let’s hope this close win for Duke insulates its hoopsters from the treatment its lacrosse team got from the faculty a few years ago in what can only rightfully be called the Nifong case. Perhaps some of the money this will bring in will be used for some mandatory faculty ethics training, with a foray into the basics of the V Amdt. as well.
My experience in this regard is more than a decade stale, but it makes me willing to wager Duke’s basketball players get more-than-fair treatment from the school’s faculty and administration in many ways (outside the context of compensation).
1) It’s hard for me to agree with any characterization of last night’s game as “great” or “one of the best.” First, it looked like a wrestling match out there. Second, 61-59 just does not spell a great game. Butler went over 7 minutes without a bucket at one point. It’s hard to say a game is great when a team has more jump balls than baskets over long stretches of time.
2) I don’t particularly dislike Duke, but I have to say that they looked like goons out there. Zoubek was playing like one of the Hanson brothers. Now, Howard (Butler’s very untalented and undersized center) was certainly getting his licks in also, but they appeared to be in reaction to Zoubek and desperate attempts to fend the guy off.
If you know the game of basketball, and you watched what was going on away from the ball, you would have seen what I did. The only consistant shortcoming in the officiating was Butler and Baylor’s constant deliberate holding on Duke’s cuts through the paint, coming off screens, and drives to the basket not being called. These two teams knew the only way to stop Duke when they are playing well. By doing this they kept Duke’s players from coming open, and inturn kept them from running their offense. I was appalled by the refusal of the officials to call this blatent frequently occuring foul. If they had called this one foul during the entire game Duke would have been 12-15 points better than either.
Defense can be great, in my judgment. Take the final (non-heaved) shot by Butler. Butler arranged a good shot (right baseline, slight fade) but missed, largely because Duke had arranged to have the right defender (tallest player on the floor) at the right spot, which caused the shooter to alter the shot’s trajectory, sending off the far side of the rim. Bad play? Not for me.
Many of Butler’s offensive troubles seemed attributable to a Duke strategy — unusually aggressive perimeter defense — that was somewhat risky and entertainingly implemented. (Duke’s coaches took that risk, I believe, after sensing a ‘we can do this all night’ quality to a few lightning strikes from Butler’s guards.) Boring? For people who devote two vital seconds to focusing on a backpedaling quarterback in NFL games, or fans of the NBA, perhaps, but not for me. I enjoyed the cat-and-mouse action-reaction display.
The “wrestling match” comment suggests a lack of familiarity with the Big East.
Watching a quarterback drop back, enjoying an NBA game (even the tail end of a back-to-backer during the regular season), admiring a player who can’t make a free throw or hit behind a runner, etc. are not crimes. Neither was enjoying Duke-Butler. A great game, to my eyes.
Stephen Clark: If you know the game of basketball, and you watched what was going on away from the ball, you would have seen what I did. The only consistant shortcoming in the officiating was Butler and Baylor’s constant deliberate holding on Duke’s cuts through the paint, coming off screens, and drives to the basket not being called. These two teams knew the only way to stop Duke when they are playing well. By doing this they kept Duke’s players from coming open, and inturn kept them from running their offense. I was appalled by the refusal of the officials to call this blatent frequently occuring foul. If they had called this one foul during the entire game Duke would have been 12–15 points better than either.
You sound like a knowledgeable consumer, so I suspect you are aware that Duke trains its players to flop (I once saw a highlight reel, circulated among coaches preparing for Duke, that resembled a Jim Carrey-Will Ferrell production) and to go straight up with the arms while disrupting the shooter with body parts below the referee’s natural attention. The flopping, in particular, could be adjudged a poor demonstration of sportsmanship. Let’s be charitable to Duke and consider the officiating a wash.
I will agree that any smart player on any team knows how to sell hard contact to an official. I hope you too will agree that a player can not fake being unable to come off a screen because the trailing defender’s arm is firmly wrapped around his waist, or being unable to separate from a defender after getting a full step ahead on a drive to the basket, because the defender’s hand is hooked on his hip.
I like both teams, and think they both represent what is still good in college b-ball. Smart student athletes playing very hard team ball.
You sound like a knowledgeable consumer, so I suspect you are aware that Duke trains its players to flop (I once saw a highlight reel, circulated among coaches preparing for Duke, that resembled a Jim Carrey-Will Ferrell production) and to go straight up with the arms while disrupting the shooter with body parts below the referee’s natural attention. The flopping, in particular, could be adjudged a poor demonstration of sportsmanship. Let’s be charitable to Duke and consider the officiating a wash.
My dad recalls seeing a Kentucky practice and being astonished at the same thing…back in 1963. Every good college team spends time on how to draw fouls. Maybe it shouldn’t be that way, but it is. If you want to charitably call the officiating a wash, you have to be charitable to Butler. Stephen Clark is absolutely right that Butler had the Duke players wrapped up a lot of the night, whereas Duke rarely did the same with Butler. Does that mean biased officiating? I’m not sure, it could mean that Butler realized early on they were going to let the teams play, and took greater advantage of it. Letting the teams play benefitted Butler more because they were smaller and (generally) not as fast or talented. But, even as a Duke fan, I thought it was fairly called. More lenient than I would have liked, and with plenty of bad calls favoring both teams, but generally fair.
Neither of the two schools playing last night were made up of many future NBA players (not to mention stars). This is a testament to the coaches. I think the majority of NBA stars are NBA talent when they leave highschool. They just need time to mature physically. I think Coach K deserves a standing ovation for consistantly developing his players to close to 100% of their potential. These players were never going to play in the NBA, not because Coach K did not develope them, but because they never had that potential. Coach K wins with talent that would not start for most perennial powers(I know some could). My point is they win because K demands all play defense, and that they play cerebrial unselfish ball. They are stronger as a team than as individuals. If I wanted to watch great athletes go one-on-one I would watch the NBA. I want to watch great basketball, and I see it year after year at Duke.
You must give Coach K credit. IMHO he is arguably the greatest mind to ever coach college basketball.
John Thacker – your comment about Huggins — I, too, did not have a great opinion of him, but I was absolutely touched at the sight of him on the floor with Da’Sean after he was hurt. Did not see the game nor the injury or foul (was one called against Duke on that???), just the film last night at halftime.
Stephen Clark: I will agree that any smart player on any team knows how to sell hard contact to an official.
Sure, a smart player can sell hard contact. But only the elite dare attempt to peddle illusory contact.
I once watched a demonstration reel prepared by a coach to prepare his team for Duke. Example after example, inside, outside, shooters, rebounders, defenders . . . hell, I think a couple of Duke cheerleaders went down were felled by phantom forces before that video ended.
I couldn’t find that video on YouTube (in two minutes, anyway). So, enjoy the animated version.
Stephen Clark: I think Coach K deserves a standing ovation for consistantly developing his players to close to 100% of their potential. These players were never going to play in the NBA, not because Coach K did not develope them, but because they never had that potential. Coach K wins with talent that would not start for most perennial powers(I know some could).
You must give Coach K credit. IMHO he is arguably the greatest mind to ever coach college basketball.
I agree with the first sentiment (although Duke gets a disproportionate number of all-America recruits, which means most of them have been greatly overrated — another aspect of the Duke mystique). Most Duke players were never destined for a professional career. Yet they become, as teams, outstanding college performers.
On the other hand, I believe most pro coaches, general managers and scouts would rather see a prospect spend two weeks with Tim Grgurich than two years with Mike Krzyzewski (and nearly all of them would rather chew used baby wipes than try to spell either name). That suggests some Duke players might have had better NBA careers had they attended a different school.
Tim Grgurich was the highest-paid assistant coach in the NBA (said to earn more than some head coaches) consequent to his exceptional skill at improving NBA players. People would send prospects (friends, recruits, clients, sons) to him for polishing, and he developed a popular and successful off-season camp. Some teams would send not only players for Grgurich’s sessions but also coaches, who were expected to watch and learn from Grgurich’s instruction methods.
He is back with George Karl, another Pittsburgh boy, in Denver this season. Tim Grgurich is not a household name, which is his preference and the reason for this explanation. But the “two weeks with Grg rather than two years with Coach K” point was no exaggeration.
Donna Mertz: I, too, did not have a great opinion of him, but I was absolutely touched at the sight of him on the floor with Da’Sean after he was hurt. Did not see the game nor the injury or foul (was one called against Duke on that???),
Da’Sean’s injury on that play didn’t occur on the collision, it occurred when he planted his foot trying to stop because he saw Zoubek there and in position. His knee bent the wrong way; it was quite horrific. Huggins came off the floor to argue the call and then to his credit focused his attention on Da’Sean once he saw how bad the injury was. I’m glad that Huggins cares about his players being hurt, even if he hasn’t cared about them graduating.
Arthur Kirkland: although Duke gets a disproportionate number of all-America recruits, which means most of them have been greatly overrated — another aspect of the Duke mystique
I will certainly admit that quite a few players get made McDonald’s All-Amercans simply because Duke recruits them. Happens to all the elite program– UNC had as many McD’s All-Americans as Duke this year, with Ed Davis, Tyler Zeller, Larry Drew, Dexter Strickland, John Henson, David Wear, and Travis Wear.
But in reality, Duke has missed on its number one recruiting target the last four or five years in a row. Harrison Barnes (UNC) this year, Greg Monroe (Georgetown), Patrick Patterson (UK) before. Wall was initially recruited hard by Duke and UNC, who both stepped away after the breaking and entering charge.
John Thacker: I will certainly admit that quite a few players get made McDonald’s All-Amercans simply because Duke recruits them. Happens to all the elite program– UNC had as many McD’s All-Americans as Duke this year
The difference is that the UNC players develop into good professional basketball players; the Duke grads tend not to. Whether this means Coach K does more with less, or that UNC does a better job of developing players, or both, I do not know. If it is the former, the Duke program should be proud.
Regarding graduation, my impression is that Duke is a natural home for players whose parents expect them to bring back a degree, and have provided advantages toward that end. That head start (and expectation) might explain why Duke players do well against collegiate competition and graduate, but flop in the NBA — their preparation gives them a head start toward collegiate success, but they are overtaken by more talented competitors over time.
Duke is a good program. Without a halo. But with Dick Groat.
Arthur Kirkland: Sure, a smart player can sell hard contact. But only the elite dare attempt to peddle illusory contact.I once watched a demonstration reel prepared by a coach to prepare his team for Duke. Example after example, inside, outside, shooters, rebounders, defenders . . . hell, I think a couple of Duke cheerleaders went down were felled by phantom forces before that video ended.I couldn’t find that video on YouTube (in two minutes, anyway). So, enjoy the animated version.
Touche. That was funny, but I don’t think that was the only time Greg embarrassed Coach K. My point is some “great coaches” recruit great tallent, let them play with little direction, and win. Some coaches shape their teams through teaching and preparation.
I have often heard that one can see a great coach’s personality in his teams. I am a fan of one of Duke’s rivals, but have come to greatly admire Coach K. Every team he has ever coached looks the same, like his team
John Thacker — your comment about Huggins — I, too, did not have a great opinion of him, but I was absolutely touched at the sight of him on the floor with Da’Sean after he was hurt. Did not see the game nor the injury or foul (was one called against Duke on that???), just the film last night at halftime.
Donna,
John Thacker right, there was no call, and shouldn’t have been because the injury happened when Da’Sean tried to plant to avoid Zoubek. I have to disagree with Thacker though on the touching moment. Huggins, who had waaaay more fouls called against Duke than against WV at that point (Duke didn’t even shoot a foul shot in the first half) first went to complain to the officials that “Duke doesn’t foul. There’s an All-American laying on the floor there and Duke doesn’t foul.” (with obvious sarcasm in his voice). Only after he tried to work over the officials did he go to comfort his player. I lost respect for Huggins at that point.
Stephen Clark: My point is some “great coaches” recruit great tallent, let them play with little direction, and win. Some coaches shape their teams through teaching and preparation.
I do not disagree with your point. Recruiting is part of the job. Instruction is part of the job. Handling of “incidents” is part of the job. Motivation is part of the job. Evaluation is part of the job. Game management is part of the job. (In some cases, delegation can overcome weakness in an area.) Kyzyzewski appears to excel at several elements of his job.
I still can’t find that video on YouTube. Maybe because I am not a proficient searcher, maybe because it was not produced for public consumption. Too bad. It was hilarious.
Given that he makes a million a year as a representative of an American university of higher learning, I am sure that Huggins actually said that his player was “lying”, not “laying”, on the floor.
I don’t know what NBA you’ve been watching but Duke has more current players than any other school. Brand Battier Boozer Dunlevey Hill Jones Maggette Deng Reddick are all good players and a few are all stars. There are several more role player types as well.
Ed Sullivan says:
aaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhh
April 5, 2010, 11:42 pmJacob LaRow says:
Butler, in the library with the candlestick.
April 5, 2010, 11:45 pmAlyssa says:
Do the good guys ever win?
April 5, 2010, 11:51 pmAndy McGill says:
It was as close as it can get. Sometimes Goliath just barely beats David.
April 5, 2010, 11:53 pmAnonsters says:
The only thing about which I need to vent is having this damned song stuck in my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIkoSPqjaU4
April 5, 2010, 11:55 pmTexas Lawyer says:
I’m a Baylor fan, so I’m still mad about our game against Duke.
We had the same issue that Butler had. In the second half, we went for a basket and made it. Looked like we were fouled. But the refs called it charging against Butler/Baylor. Thus no basket (and no foul shot for 3). Would have been game-determinative here.
Maybe I’m too bitter, but I think Duke gets a few too many calls like that.
April 6, 2010, 12:01 amConstantin says:
Ken Pomeroy, on Twitter (April 1), calculated that Duke’s odds of winning that game went from 34% to 49% the instant that call was made against Baylor.
April 6, 2010, 12:08 ambrad says:
In the end the best team won. (The best school too.)
April 6, 2010, 12:36 amneurodoc says:
A superbly played game, heartbreaking outcome.
What was the point spread going into the game? Was Butler supposed to come within 10 points of Duke, let alone fall short by just a point at the buzzer?
April 6, 2010, 12:39 amgab says:
Missed call on the Scheyer tip-in also. Should have been offensive basket interference and the bucket waved off.
April 6, 2010, 12:46 amNunyaBiznas says:
Hey I made some cold hard currency off Duke so I am happy, although I do like an underdog I like cash more.
April 6, 2010, 12:54 amJavert says:
They did.
April 6, 2010, 1:30 amJohn Thacker says:
Yes. Duke won tonight. Butler is also full of good guys. Thank goodness that the bad guys, like Huggins, didn’t win.
Baylor pushed in the back on nearly every rebound in that game, and was almost never called for the foul. I don’t know how you could say that the fouls favored Duke in the WVU game, particularly after that egregious technical. And there were plenty of ridiculous bad calls favoring Butler in this game– Scheyer was hit on the arm during 3s at least twice, Zoubek’s third foul he was clearly in position and that should have been a charge not a block, etc. Everyone has rose colored glasses, but I can’t see how anyone dispassionately would watch Duke’s last three games and think that they got the advantage on calls.
You want a team that gets calls? Try UNC, which was somehow 3rd in the nation in not fouling opponents on field goal attempts (whistled 24.5% of the time), not Duke, which was pretty average in getting calls for and against all year. Butler was also fouled a ton this year, but presumably a lot of that was being much better than Horizon League competition.
April 6, 2010, 2:59 amJohn Thacker says:
The point spread was 7, a number agreed upon by quite a few computer prediction systems. Butler played very well, but they were ranked in the top 15 all year, and they didn’t make it to the final game on luck.
No way. It looked that way from the initial camera angle, but from the behind the basket replay it was utterly obvious that the ball was way out of the cylinder. I’ll have to assume that you didn’t see that angle.
April 6, 2010, 3:01 amJohn Thacker says:
Zoubek’s third foul was a travesty. He clearly was there to take the charge, but was called for a block. Jon Scheyer was fouled on 3s several times (at least how they call it during the regular season, they hit his arm) and this crew doesn’t call it that way.
Speaking of other games, Baylor pushed in the back repeatedly on rebounds without it being called. The technical on Miles Plumlee in the West Virginia game was inappropriate, though the ref who called it is known for terrible technicals and a quick whistle. (And WVU had shot 9 free throws while Duke had none well into the second half.)
April 6, 2010, 3:05 amJohn Thacker says:
In that you got the balance of the calls in your favor, but still couldn’t seal the deal? Zoubek’s third foul against him was terrible, he was clearly in position. Scheyer was fouled on 3s at least twice. Baylor spent most of that game pushing in the back on rebounds.
April 6, 2010, 3:07 amJohn Thacker says:
Zoubek’s third foul was a terrible call. He was there well in time. Jon Scheyer was fouled at least twice on three pointers. All teams and all fans can point to bad calls.
April 6, 2010, 3:21 amTim says:
You are such a riot sometimes, Professor Kerr.
I’m so glad I avoid studying to read Volokh.
April 6, 2010, 3:40 amShag from Brookline says:
Headline:
“THE BUTLER DIDN’T DO IT!”
April 6, 2010, 7:30 amWeary_G says:
Pelosi is off the deep-freakin’ end. How much gall can one woman possess? Such a self-regarding little whor-
Huh? What game?
April 6, 2010, 7:39 amgreg says:
As someone who grew up in Durham, the vitriol that people express towards Duke has always amused me. Especially when those people have absolutely no connection to Duke other than maybe having once met someone who went to Duke.
April 6, 2010, 8:59 amFrank Drackman says:
My “Picking the Team with the most White Guys” finally paid off…
April 6, 2010, 9:44 amDotar Sojat says:
When that kid from Butler turns 13 he’s gonna’ be really dangerous.
April 6, 2010, 9:49 amtherut says:
Maybe it is based on the people we have known that went to Duke??? They seem a little (fill in the blank)________________.
April 6, 2010, 10:02 amobjectivefan says:
Can’t believe many of you so-called basketball fans. Too biased for my liking. I don’t live in the U.S. and only watch because I love bball. Duke does not get the better of the calls. Not last night for sure! Were you watching the play under the Butler basket all night? I mean really watching? Were you watching the Butler players grabbing, pushing, holding, and doing everything possible to keep Duke players away from the basket. Very tough defence, but very illegal. The refs really bought into the all the hype and the inhouse fan support. Go back and watch the tape when you are ready to be an objective observer. No wait, that would not be possible since so many of you just seem to hate Duke. From my far away location, I just don’t get it.
April 6, 2010, 10:02 amOrder of the Coif says:
Competently superior. No muss, no fuss, just victory.
Duke, 1070
April 6, 2010, 10:21 amFair&Square says:
I second objectivefan’s comment. Butler didn’t lose because the referees gave the game to Duke. As the TV play-by-play analysts noted on several occasions, and as televised instant replays demonstrated, calls were going both ways. On at least 6 or 8 occasions, a Butler player clearly fouled a Duke player and the refs refused to blow the whistle. The most significant of these no-calls occurred toward the end of the game, when Lance Thomas stole the ball and Shelvin Mack literally jumped on top of him, even as other Duke players were trying to call a timeout. The referees said Mack had tied the ball up, but the tie up occurred after a very conspicuous body slam. Had the referees called the obvious foul at that point in the game, thereby sending Thomas to the line, Duke likely would have won by a wider margin. Or maybe not. The point is: the referees made some mistakes–as they usually do–and that helped both teams. Although Butler played with tenacity and had a chance to win it, they didn’t. Duke is a deserving champion.
April 6, 2010, 10:52 amHauk says:
As much as I love to hate Duke (really, who doesn’t?), I have to remember that they’re just a bunch of college kids, too, and this is probably the biggest stage most of them will play on, too. They deserved it every bit as much as the Butler kids. Sure, they chose to attend the school with the highest douche-baggery quotient imaginable, but we can’t hold that against them.
Can we?
April 6, 2010, 11:00 amTim McD says:
Great game! Yeah, Duke got away with a block, but later Butler got away with one too.
No obvious bias in officiating, and the two teams both played excellent defense.
Would have liked to see Butler win, but neither team has anything to be ashamed of. It is just a shame that one team has to lose even when both play great ball.
April 6, 2010, 11:12 amThales says:
It was a great game; I too would have loved to see a Butler upset, and they played with a lot of heart, but it came down to a handful of missed opportunities and unlucky breaks, not biased officiating from what I could see.
April 6, 2010, 11:24 amArthur Kirkland says:
Tactically, the biggest factor was Butler’s failure to capitalize on opportunities created by its recognition that the proper response to Duke’s aggressive perimeter defense was driving to the basket. When Butler’s shorter players found themselves at the basket, however, attended by three taller defenders (it was always three, one of several illustrations of how effectively Duke players are schooled), they attempted hang-forever, fadeaway five-foot shots instead of snapping a pass to a teammate open along the three-point line (of which open teammates at least two existed). Duke easily, and repeatedly, blocked the bad shots.
It was a fine game, with well-matched teams. Butler was better than the average fifth-seeded mid-major striver. Duke was worse than the average first-seeded major conference power. Duke had more talent; Butler did not care.
Duke basketball outspends Butler basketball at least ten to one (and that is before the Sam Gilbert factor is considered). Ten years from now, the two things I will remember about this tournament are Da’Sean Butler and Butler.
Just my opinion.
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April 6, 2010, 11:36 amRealistLiberal says:
Having graduated from a small mid-major school (actually, I don’t even think we could be called mid-major) who made it to the Sweet 16 this year, I would have loved to see another small school win it all. With that said, both teams played incredible basketball and that was definitely one of the best NCAA championship games I’ve seen in some years. I don’t think there was any real bias except an all around attitude of “let them play.”
And I agree with Arthur Kirkland, I will remember Butler and Da’Sean Butler. Here’s to hoping that he heals quickly.
April 6, 2010, 11:56 ammilo says:
@ thacker,
homer much?
April 6, 2010, 12:53 pmSmooth, like a Rhapsody says:
Is there anyplace all things considered you’d rather have your blue-chip basketball recruit son play than at Duke? I can’t think of anyplace.
April 6, 2010, 1:22 pmCrunchy Frog says:
I can. Take a look at the success (or lack thereof) of Dukies that have gone on to the NBA. In the 20(!) years that Duke has been in the top echelon of college teams, there have only been three players that have stood out at all in the pros: Grant Hill, Carlos Boozer, and Shane Battier. Only Hill could charitably be mentioned among the elite.
If my kids had any athletic talent whatsoever, I’d want them to go to a program that would develop them to perform on the next level. In men’s basketball, that means North Carolina, or, as it pains me to say, UCLA.
April 6, 2010, 1:50 pmArthur Kirkland says:
It would depend, in part, on whether
(a) he had a realistic wish for a strong career in the National Basketball Association;
(b) he wished to major in sociology (inside joke, but it makes a point);
(c) home games in Durham would be handy for people who care about him; and
(d) I believed the Duke program could survive the current coach’s retirement.
This is not intended to disparage Duke. Duke runs a decent program and is a good school. But the halo is an uneasy fit, as nearly anyone whose familiarity with college basketball extends beyond a television screen would tell you.
April 6, 2010, 1:51 pmArthur Kirkland says:
The “could” in response (d) is more harsh than was intended. It should be “would.”
April 6, 2010, 1:58 pmHerb Spencer says:
Whatever our filial feelings (and I’d recommend mine avoid Duke like the the plague – or should I say tobacco – and go to a top-ranked public university like Cornell, Michigan, Illinois, or UCLA to keep him in the wider cross-section of society we worked to expose him to over the years), let’s hope this close win for Duke insulates its hoopsters from the treatment its lacrosse team got from the faculty a few years ago in what can only rightfully be called the Nifong case. Perhaps some of the money this will bring in will be used for some mandatory faculty ethics training, with a foray into the basics of the V Amdt. as well.
Ave atque vale Butler!
April 6, 2010, 2:30 pmArthur Kirkland says:
My experience in this regard is more than a decade stale, but it makes me willing to wager Duke’s basketball players get more-than-fair treatment from the school’s faculty and administration in many ways (outside the context of compensation).
April 6, 2010, 3:06 pmdude says:
Anyone else notice that the Duke women band members are especially unattractive?
Also noticed than ESPN Radio updates NEVER made even one mention of the women,s semi-final scores.
That said, the Oklahoma women,s coach is way HOT.
April 6, 2010, 3:06 pmRecovering Law Grad says:
1) It’s hard for me to agree with any characterization of last night’s game as “great” or “one of the best.” First, it looked like a wrestling match out there. Second, 61-59 just does not spell a great game. Butler went over 7 minutes without a bucket at one point. It’s hard to say a game is great when a team has more jump balls than baskets over long stretches of time.
2) I don’t particularly dislike Duke, but I have to say that they looked like goons out there. Zoubek was playing like one of the Hanson brothers. Now, Howard (Butler’s very untalented and undersized center) was certainly getting his licks in also, but they appeared to be in reaction to Zoubek and desperate attempts to fend the guy off.
April 6, 2010, 5:39 pmStephen Clark says:
If you know the game of basketball, and you watched what was going on away from the ball, you would have seen what I did. The only consistant shortcoming in the officiating was Butler and Baylor’s constant deliberate holding on Duke’s cuts through the paint, coming off screens, and drives to the basket not being called. These two teams knew the only way to stop Duke when they are playing well. By doing this they kept Duke’s players from coming open, and inturn kept them from running their offense. I was appalled by the refusal of the officials to call this blatent frequently occuring foul. If they had called this one foul during the entire game Duke would have been 12-15 points better than either.
April 6, 2010, 7:30 pmArthur Kirkland says:
Defense can be great, in my judgment. Take the final (non-heaved) shot by Butler. Butler arranged a good shot (right baseline, slight fade) but missed, largely because Duke had arranged to have the right defender (tallest player on the floor) at the right spot, which caused the shooter to alter the shot’s trajectory, sending off the far side of the rim. Bad play? Not for me.
Many of Butler’s offensive troubles seemed attributable to a Duke strategy — unusually aggressive perimeter defense — that was somewhat risky and entertainingly implemented. (Duke’s coaches took that risk, I believe, after sensing a ‘we can do this all night’ quality to a few lightning strikes from Butler’s guards.) Boring? For people who devote two vital seconds to focusing on a backpedaling quarterback in NFL games, or fans of the NBA, perhaps, but not for me. I enjoyed the cat-and-mouse action-reaction display.
The “wrestling match” comment suggests a lack of familiarity with the Big East.
Watching a quarterback drop back, enjoying an NBA game (even the tail end of a back-to-backer during the regular season), admiring a player who can’t make a free throw or hit behind a runner, etc. are not crimes. Neither was enjoying Duke-Butler. A great game, to my eyes.
April 6, 2010, 7:39 pmArthur Kirkland says:
You sound like a knowledgeable consumer, so I suspect you are aware that Duke trains its players to flop (I once saw a highlight reel, circulated among coaches preparing for Duke, that resembled a Jim Carrey-Will Ferrell production) and to go straight up with the arms while disrupting the shooter with body parts below the referee’s natural attention. The flopping, in particular, could be adjudged a poor demonstration of sportsmanship. Let’s be charitable to Duke and consider the officiating a wash.
April 6, 2010, 7:45 pmStephen Clark says:
I will agree that any smart player on any team knows how to sell hard contact to an official. I hope you too will agree that a player can not fake being unable to come off a screen because the trailing defender’s arm is firmly wrapped around his waist, or being unable to separate from a defender after getting a full step ahead on a drive to the basket, because the defender’s hand is hooked on his hip.
I like both teams, and think they both represent what is still good in college b-ball. Smart student athletes playing very hard team ball.
April 6, 2010, 8:12 pmhattio says:
Arthur Kirkland says,
My dad recalls seeing a Kentucky practice and being astonished at the same thing…back in 1963. Every good college team spends time on how to draw fouls. Maybe it shouldn’t be that way, but it is. If you want to charitably call the officiating a wash, you have to be charitable to Butler. Stephen Clark is absolutely right that Butler had the Duke players wrapped up a lot of the night, whereas Duke rarely did the same with Butler. Does that mean biased officiating? I’m not sure, it could mean that Butler realized early on they were going to let the teams play, and took greater advantage of it. Letting the teams play benefitted Butler more because they were smaller and (generally) not as fast or talented. But, even as a Duke fan, I thought it was fairly called. More lenient than I would have liked, and with plenty of bad calls favoring both teams, but generally fair.
April 6, 2010, 8:56 pmStephen Clark says:
Neither of the two schools playing last night were made up of many future NBA players (not to mention stars). This is a testament to the coaches. I think the majority of NBA stars are NBA talent when they leave highschool. They just need time to mature physically. I think Coach K deserves a standing ovation for consistantly developing his players to close to 100% of their potential. These players were never going to play in the NBA, not because Coach K did not develope them, but because they never had that potential. Coach K wins with talent that would not start for most perennial powers(I know some could). My point is they win because K demands all play defense, and that they play cerebrial unselfish ball. They are stronger as a team than as individuals. If I wanted to watch great athletes go one-on-one I would watch the NBA. I want to watch great basketball, and I see it year after year at Duke.
You must give Coach K credit. IMHO he is arguably the greatest mind to ever coach college basketball.
April 6, 2010, 9:14 pmDonna Mertz says:
John Thacker – your comment about Huggins — I, too, did not have a great opinion of him, but I was absolutely touched at the sight of him on the floor with Da’Sean after he was hurt. Did not see the game nor the injury or foul (was one called against Duke on that???), just the film last night at halftime.
April 6, 2010, 9:51 pmArthur Kirkland says:
Sure, a smart player can sell hard contact. But only the elite dare attempt to peddle illusory contact.
I once watched a demonstration reel prepared by a coach to prepare his team for Duke. Example after example, inside, outside, shooters, rebounders, defenders . . . hell, I think a couple of Duke cheerleaders
went downwere felled by phantom forces before that video ended.I couldn’t find that video on YouTube (in two minutes, anyway). So, enjoy the animated version.
April 6, 2010, 11:56 pmArthur Kirkland says:
I agree with the first sentiment (although Duke gets a disproportionate number of all-America recruits, which means most of them have been greatly overrated — another aspect of the Duke mystique). Most Duke players were never destined for a professional career. Yet they become, as teams, outstanding college performers.
On the other hand, I believe most pro coaches, general managers and scouts would rather see a prospect spend two weeks with Tim Grgurich than two years with Mike Krzyzewski (and nearly all of them would rather chew used baby wipes than try to spell either name). That suggests some Duke players might have had better NBA careers had they attended a different school.
April 7, 2010, 12:12 amVisitor Again says:
Richard Nixon went to Duke’s law school.
April 7, 2010, 2:07 amArthur Kirkland says:
Tim Grgurich was the highest-paid assistant coach in the NBA (said to earn more than some head coaches) consequent to his exceptional skill at improving NBA players. People would send prospects (friends, recruits, clients, sons) to him for polishing, and he developed a popular and successful off-season camp. Some teams would send not only players for Grgurich’s sessions but also coaches, who were expected to watch and learn from Grgurich’s instruction methods.
He is back with George Karl, another Pittsburgh boy, in Denver this season. Tim Grgurich is not a household name, which is his preference and the reason for this explanation. But the “two weeks with Grg rather than two years with Coach K” point was no exaggeration.
April 7, 2010, 2:33 amJohn Thacker says:
Da’Sean’s injury on that play didn’t occur on the collision, it occurred when he planted his foot trying to stop because he saw Zoubek there and in position. His knee bent the wrong way; it was quite horrific. Huggins came off the floor to argue the call and then to his credit focused his attention on Da’Sean once he saw how bad the injury was. I’m glad that Huggins cares about his players being hurt, even if he hasn’t cared about them graduating.
April 7, 2010, 8:36 amJohn Thacker says:
I will certainly admit that quite a few players get made McDonald’s All-Amercans simply because Duke recruits them. Happens to all the elite program– UNC had as many McD’s All-Americans as Duke this year, with Ed Davis, Tyler Zeller, Larry Drew, Dexter Strickland, John Henson, David Wear, and Travis Wear.
But in reality, Duke has missed on its number one recruiting target the last four or five years in a row. Harrison Barnes (UNC) this year, Greg Monroe (Georgetown), Patrick Patterson (UK) before. Wall was initially recruited hard by Duke and UNC, who both stepped away after the breaking and entering charge.
April 7, 2010, 8:46 amJohn Thacker says:
No, players flop to the floor in anticipation of contact on all teams. If they didn’t, you would see a lot more injuries.
April 7, 2010, 8:48 amArthur Kirkland says:
The difference is that the UNC players develop into good professional basketball players; the Duke grads tend not to. Whether this means Coach K does more with less, or that UNC does a better job of developing players, or both, I do not know. If it is the former, the Duke program should be proud.
Regarding graduation, my impression is that Duke is a natural home for players whose parents expect them to bring back a degree, and have provided advantages toward that end. That head start (and expectation) might explain why Duke players do well against collegiate competition and graduate, but flop in the NBA — their preparation gives them a head start toward collegiate success, but they are overtaken by more talented competitors over time.
Duke is a good program. Without a halo. But with Dick Groat.
April 7, 2010, 11:12 amStephen Clark says:
Touche. That was funny, but I don’t think that was the only time Greg embarrassed Coach K. My point is some “great coaches” recruit great tallent, let them play with little direction, and win. Some coaches shape their teams through teaching and preparation.
April 7, 2010, 1:06 pmI have often heard that one can see a great coach’s personality in his teams. I am a fan of one of Duke’s rivals, but have come to greatly admire Coach K. Every team he has ever coached looks the same, like his team
hattio says:
Donna Mertz says;
Donna,
April 7, 2010, 1:34 pmJohn Thacker right, there was no call, and shouldn’t have been because the injury happened when Da’Sean tried to plant to avoid Zoubek. I have to disagree with Thacker though on the touching moment. Huggins, who had waaaay more fouls called against Duke than against WV at that point (Duke didn’t even shoot a foul shot in the first half) first went to complain to the officials that “Duke doesn’t foul. There’s an All-American laying on the floor there and Duke doesn’t foul.” (with obvious sarcasm in his voice). Only after he tried to work over the officials did he go to comfort his player. I lost respect for Huggins at that point.
Arthur Kirkland says:
I do not disagree with your point. Recruiting is part of the job. Instruction is part of the job. Handling of “incidents” is part of the job. Motivation is part of the job. Evaluation is part of the job. Game management is part of the job. (In some cases, delegation can overcome weakness in an area.) Kyzyzewski appears to excel at several elements of his job.
I still can’t find that video on YouTube. Maybe because I am not a proficient searcher, maybe because it was not produced for public consumption. Too bad. It was hilarious.
April 7, 2010, 2:36 pmSmooth, like a Rhapsody says:
Given that he makes a million a year as a representative of an American university of higher learning, I am sure that Huggins actually said that his player was “lying”, not “laying”, on the floor.
April 7, 2010, 2:41 pmArthur Kirkland says:
Maybe he wanted to emphasize that his player had not flopped? Some argue that straying from prescriptive usage to make a point is appropriate.
April 7, 2010, 3:49 pmDave says:
I don’t know what NBA you’ve been watching but Duke has more current players than any other school. Brand Battier Boozer Dunlevey Hill Jones Maggette Deng Reddick are all good players and a few are all stars. There are several more role player types as well.
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June 22, 2010, 1:48 am