Today is May 1, May Day. Back in 2007 and 2008, I advocated the idea of transforming this long-time communist holiday into Victims of Communism Day – a day of remembrance for the victims of history’s bloodiest ideology. This year, several bloggers are joining in an effort to commemorate the occasion. Jonathan Wilde of Distributed Republic deserves credit for organizing this effort.
I think that the rationale I offered for turning May Day into Victims of Communism Day in my first post on the subject still holds true:
May Day began as a holiday for socialists and labor union activists, not just communists. But over time, the date was taken over by the Soviet Union and other communist regimes and used as a propaganda tool to prop up their regimes. I suggest that we instead use it as a day to commemorate those regimes’ millions of victims. The authoritative Black Book of Communism estimates the total at 80 to 100 million dead, greater than that caused by all other twentieth century tyrannies combined. We appropriately have a Holocaust Memorial Day. It is equally appropriate to commemorate the victims of the twentieth century’s other great totalitarian tyranny. And May Day is the most fitting day to do so. I suggest that May Day be turned into Victims of Communism Day….
The main alternative to May 1 is November 7, the anniversary of the communist coup in Russia. However, choosing that date might be interpreted as focusing exclusively on the Soviet Union, while ignoring the equally horrendous communist mass murders in China, Camobodia, and elsewhere. So May 1 is the best choice.
In this November 2009 post, I explained in some detail why the longstanding relative neglect of communist crimes is deplorable – not just from the standpoint of understanding the past, but also that of doing justice in the here and now and ensuring a better future.
In recent decades, the question of acknowledging communist crimes has become something of a left-right issue in many quarters. That situation is deeply unfortunate, but far from inevitable. Among those who fully recognized the evils of communism in the past were liberals such as Harry Truman and Senator Henry “Scoop” Jackson and leftists such as George Orwell. In Eastern Europe, some of the most important leaders of the anti-communist dissident movement were social democrats such as Vaclav Havel and Andrei Sakharov. It is not too late for today’s noncommunist left to follow their example.
Efforts to downplay or ignore communist crimes are also common among Russian and Chinese nationalists. But if a committed Russian nationalist such as Alexander Solzhenitsyn once took the lead in exposing those crimes, it may be possible for his ideological heirs today to take the same view.
UPDATE: Bryan Caplan has an interesting post related to this subject here. Wilde will be posting relevant links throughout the day at Distributed Republic. Stay tuned!
UPDATE #2: Political scientist Rudolph Rummel, a leading academic expert on mass murder, wrote a helpful post entitled “The Red Plague” summarizing the massive death toll of communism for May Day commemoration back in 2005. Jonathan Wilde has links to posts by various bloggers for this year’s commemoration here. And here is a link to the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, one of the leading nonprofit organizations working on these issues.
Randy says:
I applaud your concept, but I fear that it is so broad as to dilute the effect. How many millions were victims of communism? Not just those killed, but those who suffered. But where do you draw the line? Basically, most everyone can claim to have been a victim of communism. The and its citizens were victims because we had to endure the Cold War for decades, with it’s enormous social and military costs, for instance. Certainly most every person who lived under a communist regime could claim to suffer.
I would suggest that you narrow the focus just a bit. Perhaps honor those who died under communist regimes and their families.
Nonetheless, you are certainly on the right track that we should have a day to remember that this scourge once was very threatening to the free world, and expose its evils.
May 1, 2010, 2:32 amKasinski says:
You aren’t giving the Communists any credit for meaning well.
My heart quails at the strength it took to starve 7 million people to death to bring a better life to the masses. Or at least the masses – 7 million.
May 1, 2010, 3:05 amAs a teenage poet, Marx says:
Never can I perform in calmness
What has seized my soul with might,
But must strive and struggle onward
In a ceaseless, restless flight.
All divine, enhancing graces
May 1, 2010, 3:17 amWould I make of life a part
Penetrate the realms of science,
Grasp the joys of song and art.
CB says:
Awesome! Thanks for your efforts in keeping communism’s horrors in society’s conscience too.
May 1, 2010, 3:44 amJ-dV. says:
I applaud your efforts, however I have two thoughts:
1) Conflating all communist crimes ignores the specificity of what transpired in the various countries. It is somewhat disrespectful to throw people in China, The Soviet Union, Cambodia, etc. all into the same category just because we perceive them as “those communist countries”.
2) Lay off May Day! Just because the Soviets glommed on to the day doesn’t mean you get to ignore it’s long history and vibrant present. It is celebrated throughout the world as International Worker’s Day, and to most people it has no communist associations.
Choosing May Day for Victims of Communism Day just comes off as a cynical way to attack labor/the left; so even though I’d like to be on board with the plan I’m going to be out wearing red and marching with the local janitorial union who just one a well deserved pay raise.
May 1, 2010, 4:21 amdearieme says:
Excellent idea. I add the suggestion that we make April the first a day of commemoration of those who suffered at the hands of the dolts and crooks of democratic politics. People could wear face masks of Slick Willie, W and O, for instance, or earlier villains.
May 1, 2010, 5:23 amMark N. says:
Yeah, to me, the idea of an “anti-May-Day” has an uncomfortably rightist/reactionary, rather than classical-liberal, sort of feel to it. It seems likely to draw unwelcome friends, too, especially since they got to the idea first: Le Pen’s Front National has been holding May Day counterprotests for decades (with a parade led by someone dressed as Joan of Arc).
May 1, 2010, 6:21 amTomG says:
This day 1960, Gary Francis Powers got shot down over USSR – so perhaps it can be become
May 1, 2010, 6:44 amInternational Anti-aircraft Day ;-)
Sara says:
The thing about choosing May Day is that it seems to focus especially on Stalin, since the Soviet Union was so associated with that day.
May 1, 2010, 6:46 amTomG says:
Actually if you probe further back in history, May Day was a major pagan ‘holy’ day –
May 1, 2010, 7:11 amwith even druids’ May Poles and such (not sure how it segued into being associated with
work when it originally meant quite the opposite). Cheers, Tom
PersonFromPorlock says:
I sympathise, and certainly communism’s apologists should have their noses rubbed in its crimes when they defend it, but the American genius has always been to “let the dead bury the dead” and get on with things instead of dwelling on past hurts. That’s a big part of why America is so stable a place compared to, say, the Middle East or Twentieth Century Europe.
So, no, I don’t think so: the ash-heap of history is presently untenanted and a fine place for all things communist.
May 1, 2010, 7:34 amgray says:
Working people in many democratic countries with human rights records as good or better than the USA celebrate May 1st as the day for working people. So to try and smear it with Stalin’s record seems like, at the least, an insensitive attack on working people.
As someone from the democratic left I applaud the effort to confront those elements of the left that have historically soft peddled Stalin’s record, but smearing working people along the way isn’t going to help that project.
May 1, 2010, 8:14 amDYSPEPSIA GENERATION » Blog Archive » Victims of Communism Day says:
[...] Read it. [...]
May 1, 2010, 8:34 amSara says:
I sympathize with your comment. It often appears that so many people around the world need to have some forgetfulness of their painful past, in order to live today. But a memorial sometimes can operate to put it on the shelf. Perhaps not this memorial idea, with its emphasis, but another. Are there any other “victims of ______” days?
May 1, 2010, 9:18 amMeredith M. says:
I support this effort, Prof. Somin.
May 1, 2010, 9:32 amAs an aside, DC has a Victims of Communism memorial. I found it when I was walking by Georgetown Law school one day. Google Maps says it’s at 707 New Jersey Ave NW (you can check it out on street view). The inscription reads “To more than one hundred million victims of communism and to those who love liberty.”
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/18507509.jpg
sashal says:
honorable idea m but it is overboard as the worldwide celebration. there is no world wide anti-fascist day, isn’t it?
May 1, 2010, 9:37 amLet each country- the victims of oppressive regime which called themselves communists have their own memory days for the victims.
In USA I would introduce anti-libertarian day, in honor of those who fell victim of reckless
unrestricted free market ideology and utopia which resulted in ruin for so many human beings…
Freedom Fighter says:
When you see all the folks in the streets celebrating May Day this year, just remember that these are the same folks who will lock you up and expropriate your property without due process when they think they can get away with it.
May 1, 2010, 9:44 amFreedom Fighter says:
When you see all the folks in the streets celebrating May Day this year, just remember that these are the same folks who will lock you up and expropriate your property without due process when they think they can get away with it.
May 1, 2010, 9:44 amBama 1L says:
Still celebrating the Feast of St. Joseph the Worker on May 1.
May 8 should be world-wide anti-fascist day.
May 1, 2010, 9:47 amMikey says:
How many tens of millions have died because the government left them alone?
Anyway, for me May 1 is important for the most important of reasons: it’s my birthday.
May 1, 2010, 9:52 amMalvolio says:
And Lenin’s and Mao’s and Pol-Pot’s and Castro’s and Guevara’s and Ortega’s and Chavez’s. Communists like to kill people and the “democratic left” should remember that.
What does that cant even mean, “working people”, “working families”? We all have jobs, nobody gets a free ride.
May 1, 2010, 9:55 amwm13 says:
It is hard for me to believe that people celebrate May Day in good faith (i.e., that the people who celebrate it in fact repudiate Stalin, Mao, and Communist totalitarianism generally). It is hard for me to believe that people celebrate Confederate Memorial Day in good faith (i.e., that the people who celebrate it in fact repudiate Jefferson Davis, George Wallace, and slavery and segregation generally).
And I guess the skepticism expressed above is what it makes it hard for me to be much of a partisan: both sides seem like such obvious liars to me.
May 1, 2010, 9:59 amAnderson says:
Glad to see others noting that taking May Day and turning it into an anti-Communist memorial is just a little too convenient for ignoring the working class whom May Day was intended to honor.
Perhaps there’s a holiday devoted to academics that we could turn into Victims of Communism Day instead? Isn’t it an article of faith that college professors were instrumental in the spread of Communism?
May 1, 2010, 10:10 amMark Field says:
One difference is that May Day had an existence prior to the atrocities and a generally beneficial purpose behind it. That can’t be said of Confederate Memorial Day.
Evil people tried to coopt May Day (and succeeded to a great extent). Celebrating its original purpose seems to me a good way to take it back.
May 1, 2010, 10:10 amSteve says:
I would support this but don’t use May Day for it. Just because Stalin co-opted a worker’s holiday doesn’t mean we should let him win. Communism was not actually pro-worker (or pro-anyone except the ruling class) and one shouldn’t confuse support for labor with support for communism.
But I think you see from some of these comments (let’s have an anti-Democratic Party day too to protest their socialism!) why it will be difficult to attract bipartisan support for this day. If people persist in baselessly tarring the mainstream American left with the specter of communism, then every reference to communism is going to be interpreted as yet another shot at the mainstream left.
May 1, 2010, 10:17 amPatrick S. O'Donnell says:
Today is, rightly, a workers’ holiday: Happy May Day!
May 1, 2010, 10:25 amRemember The 100 Million « Unclemeat says:
[...] The Volokh Conspiracy wants to change the name… [...]
May 1, 2010, 10:42 amSara says:
The Goddess of Democracy also stands in San Fransico’s Portsmouth Square http://www.flickr.com/photos/wallyg/3980124892/ and several other places in North America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy
May 1, 2010, 10:55 amDave N. says:
While I have no problem having two holidays on the same day, might I suggest as an alternative, November 7, which on the Gregorian calendar, coincides with the day the Soviet’s celebrated the October Revolution?
In some ways it makes more sense: Had the Bolsheviks been crushed in 1917, Communism might have been stillborn.
May 1, 2010, 10:55 amDawnsblood says:
I’ll stick to the first Monday of September myself. I prefer my holidays unsullied by the “Holiday of National Labour” or the “The Day of Spring and Labour”.
May 1, 2010, 10:58 amwm13 says:
It would be nice if people stopped baseless tarring the mainstream American left with the specter of communism. It would also be nice if people stopped baselessly tarring the mainstream American right with the specter of racism. It’s not going to happen, though. And unfortunately, there are enough Communists on the left (chastened at present, but unrepentant), and enough racists on the right, to make the tarring mildly plausible.
May 1, 2010, 11:03 amgeokstr says:
So? (shrugs)
You on the left use every possible reference, no matter how tenuous or peripheral of fanciful or dishonest (even if you have to have US Congressmen and “journalists” make them up out of whole cloth) to racism, homophobia, fascism, sexism, opposition to Obama’s policies, and any of a hundred other leftist bogeymen to baselessly take shots at the mainstream right, who make up a hell of a bigger portion of this country than the left.
Like, you mean, the beloved William Ayers or something? I believe he had a letter of support from several thousands of college professors back in 2008 when he was in the limelight, non? And he says he’s still a communist.
May 1, 2010, 11:07 amSara says:
Dawnsblood, I can only guess why you don’t celebrate Loyalty Day! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_Day. And Somin wonders at the politics of it?
May 1, 2010, 11:08 amMay Day! May Day! « ricketyclick says:
[...] Victims Of Communism Day: May Day began as a holiday for socialists and labor union activists, not just communists. But over [...]
May 1, 2010, 11:12 amgeokstr says:
Really? How ironic. I would have thought such a symbol of rightwing oppression like that would have been toppled by the San Franciscostas long ago.
May 1, 2010, 11:19 amJules Crittenden » Happy Victims Of Communism Day says:
[...] Somin at the Volokh Conspiracy designates this highest of communist holies, May Day, as Victims of Communism Day, and touches on [...]
May 1, 2010, 11:30 amSara says:
Well, that’s where your wrong. Not the first time.
May 1, 2010, 11:33 amChrisTS says:
Really. Pick another day. There is no reason to saddle May Day with this. And, now that Sara points out that May 1st is ‘Loyalty Day,’ I would say we need to spread out our celebrations and memorials a bit. February is a dull month; try that.
May 1, 2010, 11:43 amBohemond says:
“2) Lay off May Day! Just because the Soviets glommed on to the day doesn’t mean you get to ignore it’s long history and vibrant present. It is celebrated throughout the world as International Worker’s Day, and to most people it has no communist associations.
Oh, no. Nothing bad about Socialists or radical labor unions, nosirreebob. Pshaw! In the United States we have a day for genuine working people and legitimate
May 1, 2010, 11:53 amB Smith says:
Great Idea! It might be good also to celebrate the West’s victories in the Cold War – both in Europe and in Aisa in S Korea and Taiwan.
May 1, 2010, 11:56 amBohemond says:
(Con’t)
labor unions: Labor Day, in September, specifically chosen to distance the American labor movement from Communism and the Socialist International.
May Day, here, is a Holy Day for no-one but overt Bolshies, covert Bolshies hiding behind euphemisms like “Progressive”, and radical hard-left unions like the SEIU. These days, of course, it’s fashionable for the red-banner waving left to pretend they have nothing at all in common with the doctrines that spawned Stalin and Mao- and they’re lying.
May 1, 2010, 11:57 amSGT Ted says:
If there weren’t still so many prominent, “educated” folks who still actively endorse and promote Communism, especially in American Univerties, I wouldn’t much care. Until todays pro-communist people are scorned and shunned the way Nazis are, this is needed.
May 1, 2010, 12:03 pmSara says:
. . . and the Catholic Church http://www.americancatholic.org/features/saints/saint.aspx?id=1370
May 1, 2010, 12:05 pmBohemond says:
“and the Catholic Church”
No, a saint’s feast is not the same as a Holy Day.
May 1, 2010, 12:13 pmAnonsters says:
Why not April? It is the cruellest month.
May 1, 2010, 12:18 pmAnonsters says:
Oh, and May 1st is also “Law Day, U.S.A.,” apparently.
May 1, 2010, 12:22 pmRobert Mugabe says:
There is no longer a sober left in America, the radical fringe has triumphed and is dominant over all the left. Therefore it is just to lump the entire left — the academic, the media, the entire pseudo-intellectual spectra of leftism — in with the folly of communism and genocidal socialism.
May 1, 2010, 12:25 pmgeokstr says:
Opinions vary.
I realize the left can’t fathom or stomach that other opinions are even allowed to exist. Which explains a lot about why they are at the forefront of PC, campus speech codes, “hate speech” laws, “human rights commissions” to control “offensive speech”, internet “neutrality” and the Orwellian “Fairness Doctrine.” Or why their definition of “diversity” includes only differences of appearance, ethnicity, gender, and sexual preference, but not ideas.
Once they’ve made NewSpeak the only permissible language, everything will be doubleplusgood.
May 1, 2010, 12:30 pmAnonsters says:
Illustrating that you have no fucking clue what Net Neutrality is all about.
Not that I’m surprised.
May 1, 2010, 12:32 pmVictims of Communism Day Blogging « Let A Thousand Nations Bloom says:
[...] Ilya Somin at Volokh [...]
May 1, 2010, 12:36 pmJD says:
I think this is a great idea: As for having it on May 1st, I’m not so sure.
I think a more apropos date would be April 30th.
(I choose that date for the same reason I think our tax day should be moved just before election day).
May 1, 2010, 12:43 pmSara says:
Geokster: Your still wrong, as originally noted and you admitted. Now, however, you appear to be speaking in tongues.
May 1, 2010, 12:52 pmChrisTS says:
:-) I disagree with that judgment, in fact. But, hey, I could work with an April Victims of Communism Day (VOC Day). Then, we could Victims of Fascism Day in February, Victims of Racism in March….
May 1, 2010, 1:02 pmAnonsters says:
Disagree all you want. April is the cruellest month, breeding/Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing/Memory and desire, stirring/Dull roots with spring rain. ;)
May 1, 2010, 1:12 pmMicha Elyi says:
March is already taken. It’s Feminist Victims Month.
May 1, 2010, 1:34 pmtom scott says:
To those that think there cannot be two holidays (Labor/remembrance of communism) on May 1st I ask them to consider President’s Day.
May 1, 2010, 1:49 pmVictims Of Communism Day « Tai-Chi Policy says:
[...] Tragedy, Victims Of Communism Day trackback While the left celebrates International Workers Day, remember the 80-100 million that Communism has killed. And all of the deaths from [...]
May 1, 2010, 1:52 pmSam Hall says:
The swastika has rich history from its use in Indian religions, however it has become stigmatized because it was one of WWII Germany symbols. Same thing with May Day. Regardless of history, it belongs to the Communists.
May 1, 2010, 1:58 pmGringo says:
Variations on applications of the dictatorship of the proletariat ideology resulted in the death of millions. About 25% of Cambodians were killed by Pol Pot, and ~2-5% of Chinese lost their lives in the Great Leap Forward Famine (~ 10-30 million). While the “specificity” of the percentages of population killed, and the number killed will vary from country to country, there is a common thread: dictatorship of the proletariat. Only a pettifogging fool would refuse to see the common thread and blather on about “ignoring the specificity.”
May 1, 2010, 2:02 pmRandy says:
Geostkr: “Or why their definition of “diversity” includes only differences of appearance, ethnicity, gender, and sexual preference, but not ideas.”
Slight correction. People don’t have sexual preferences, they have sexual orientations. Generally speaking, people who are homophobic use the phrase ‘preference’ because they believe that being gay is a choice, which of course is not correct. Since you know better, and I’m sure that you don’t want us lefties thinking that you are homophobic, as you mentioned earlier, I just wanted to point that out.
Have a fabulous day!
May 1, 2010, 2:24 pmzuch says:
Can we have a “Victims of Capitalism” day too? Maybe those folks in West Virginia might appreciate it.
But for the record: Calling many of the victims of murder by authoritarian regimes “victims of communism” is a bit misleading; it doesn’t get at the essence of the actual situation and history.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 2:32 pmGringo says:
1)Such as Van Jones saying he was a communist. Never any statement repudiating that – just that there was a need for change of tactics. One step backward, two steps forward. Formerly of the Obama White House.
2)Such as Anita Dunn saying that Mao was one of her “favorite philosophers.” Formerly of the Obama White house.
3)Such as Mark Lloyd ( Chief diversity Officer at the FCC) parroting the Chavista line about Venezuela. Chavez is not exactly a fan of capitalism, nor of civil liberties nor of media freedom,nor of democracy.
4)Such as Bill Ayers and his wife being among the co-authors of a book that advocated dictatorship of the proletariat.Think of that, launching your political career at the home of people who advocate dictatorship of the proletariat. Which may be why Obama and his staff have dissembled about his relationship with Ayers.
5) Such as the Reverend Al Sharpton saying that Americans ‘Voted for Socialism When They Elected President Obama’. (I bring this up because many Obama supporters consider it a smear to label Obama a socialist. After all, taking over 1/6 of the economy with Health Care Reform, and taking over 2 or the three biggest domestic car companies has nothing to do with socialism.)
Do you consider it tarring to bring up these facts?
May 1, 2010, 2:34 pmGringo says:
By the same token, would you agree that “victims of Nazism” is a bit misleading? Cheers.
May 1, 2010, 2:38 pmManju says:
Rather than asking Prof Somin–who is after all providing a voice to the voiceless–to stop approprating May Day, perhaps the a more appropriate gesture would be for the left to just let him have it. By changing the date they’d demonstrate an awareness of the sheer evil so many leftists advocated, enabled, and justified…which includes even moderate ones, as the NYTimes and The Nation’s Holodomor denial demonstrates.
It would also help if those who ask the left to make such a gesture would hold those who wave confederate flags to the same standards, especially considering the ahistorical revisonism 2 republican govenors were caught engaging in.
May 1, 2010, 2:40 pmGringo says:
Zuch, would you not also agree that is “a bit misleading” to call communist regimes “authoritarian regimes,” especially since consensus has long been that communist regimes are among those labeled “totalitarian regimes.” There is a distinct difference between those merely labeled “authoritarian regimes” and those labeled “totalitarian regimes.” Check your political science. Cheers.
May 1, 2010, 2:47 pmChrisTS says:
tom scott says:
Well, it celebrates several people for the same contribution. Not quite analogous to celebrating one thing and memorializing victims of somethng else.
May 1, 2010, 2:47 pmBama 1L says:
In Catholic usage, which is the only one relevant to the Feast of St. Joseph the Worker on May 1, they are interchangeable terms. Thus, for example:
“Ecclesiastical Feasts,” Catholic Encyclopedia (1909):
I think you are trying to say that many feasts are not Holy Days of Obligation, on which the faithful are obliged to attend Mass. But the same Latin word is used! The Code of Canon Law consistently translates Lat. dies festus as “Feast Day” and Lat. dies festus de praecepto as “Holy Day of Obligation.” As you can see, the Latin is the same except for the words that we translate “of Obligation.” And you never see an official Catholic communication in English referring to “Holy Days of Obligation” as simply “Holy Days.”
So you are introducing a distinction that is not really sustainable; “feast day” and “holy day” mean the same thing.
May 1, 2010, 2:53 pmBama 1L says:
Yes, authoritarians are failed totalitarians.
May 1, 2010, 2:55 pmBohemond says:
Ok, OK, you win the semantic point.
However, it is misleading in the extreme to imply, as the first poster did, that it was Pius’ intent in establishing the Feast of St Joseph the Worker to give the Church’s imprimatur to Socialist/Communist May Day events; quite the contrary. His intention was to pull Catholic workers away from such celebrations, and recognize the sanctity (and challenges) of labor without endorsing political systems to which Pius was unalterably opposed.
An analogy would be the Knights of Columbus, created by the Church in America to counter or rival the Masons and similar lodge-groups.
May 1, 2010, 3:16 pmManju says:
Well, to boil it doen to authoritarianism, or more specifically totalitarianism, would unintentionally bolster, by conflating fascism with communism, the jonah goldberg argument.
so better to honor the victims of fascism and communism separately.
May 1, 2010, 3:20 pmDennis N says:
Or he has a very good understanding of what has been peddled as “Net Neutrality” of late. But your argument is made so much stronger by the insulting inclusion of that vulgarity.
May 1, 2010, 3:29 pmDG says:
Yes, the way the miners were killed by government agents was terrible. Especially considering that they were forced, at gunpoint, to work in those minds, and considering that they weren’t being paid. Yes, a regular gulag.
There’s a difference between ordinary commercial activity – even dangerous commercial activity – and forced labor in re-education camps specifically designed to liquidate their victims. Those miners were not zeks and they would be offended if you suggested that they were. The inmates of soviet and chinese labor camps, not to mention their current NK analogues are, in fact, zeks.
May 1, 2010, 4:38 pmDG says:
Anonsters is absolutely correct that network neutrality has nothing to do with viewpoint issues – its a purely economic situation, whether you agree with it or not. However, there is significant lack of acceptance for dissenting viewpoints on the left and the rest of the examples – political correctness and speech codes are apt. Whatever the right’s other failures – and I think they are legion – they display willingness to accept and debate many viewpoints.
The right’s current problem is Obama Derangement Syndrome, which is no less disgusting and troubling than Bush Derangement Syndrome. Similarly, the current Tea Party situation is no more foolish and ill-informed than the peace protest movement (ANSWER, etc) used to be.
May 1, 2010, 4:46 pmBohemond says:
Do you really want to compare workplace safety in the Communist world? Are you sure you want to go there?
May 1, 2010, 4:47 pmSara says:
I implied no such thing. I was making fun of your overwrought and embarrassingly incomplete list of holy day observers on this day.
May 1, 2010, 4:53 pmMe says:
Any day of the week, Bohemond. Workplace safety in a communist country–it’s obvious you’ve forgotten CHERNOBYL. (Sorry, but Three-Mile Island doesn’t come close in comparison.)
Or perhaps you forgot the numerous instances of Chinese communism which claimed victims? Oh, you know, people dying in earthquakes because the buildings are made of toothpicks; melamine-laced foods killing babies, and Chinese workers dying in mine collapses.
May 1, 2010, 4:57 pmIgnorantSocialist says:
Hmm. Curious how you’re perspective is limited to the United States, as the proposed event seems to take a global scope. But if that must be the terms of the debate, I’d ask you to look to the deaths of millions of Native Americans as our glorious forefathers sought to expand the free market! Hurrah!
May 1, 2010, 5:05 pmBohemond says:
It is however much, much less ugly, hateful and violent; and to try to counterpoise the two is a false equivalency.
May 1, 2010, 5:06 pmBohemond says:
Me:
Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! You’ve got my point exactly backwards, dude: I was saying, in shorthand, the very same thing you are. Workplace safety (and environmental devastation) are GHASTLY in the Communist world.
While we’re at it, we can add radiation poisoning and cancer among Russian nuclear workers.
May 1, 2010, 5:11 pmBohemond says:
Oh, for Christ’s sake. Are you seriously trying to claim that imperialist conquest is a uniquely capitalist phenomenon?
(incidentally, your “millions” of Indians killed is a tad overheated. Like by an order of magnitude).
May 1, 2010, 5:14 pmMichael B says:
A “Victims of Communism Day” post immediately adjacent to a “The Sound of Crickets Chirping” post.
As apposite as one can imagine.
And a single day after the 35th anniversary of the fall of Saigon to Uncle Ho’s mass murdering brigades, aka the Democratic People’s Republic of Vietnam.
May 1, 2010, 5:23 pmIgnorantSocialist says:
No, I most certainly am not claiming that imperialist conquest is a uniquely capitalist phenomenon. Although, I’d ask you a similar question about the relationship between totalitarian states / dictators and communism….
I do admit, I’m a little hazy on the numbers and my apologies if it was an overstatement. You might consider a quick read here though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States#Impact_on_Native_Populations
Thanks for the response!
May 1, 2010, 5:27 pmzuch says:
Perhaps a little. Once again, there’s more facets to Nazism than simply a defining precept of racial superiority and a genocidal tendency.
But far less misleading that attributing such as defining aspects of communism. FWIW, none of the “communist states” usually cited were in fact anything like the communism that Marx envisioned (despite any claims to the contrary), and Marx certainly included no concept of mass killing in his discourses. You might think that any “communism” (as you define it) necessarily will involve such, but you then need to write your own The Real Communist Manifesto and explain it.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 5:33 pmzuch says:
I would not agree that such authoritarian/totalitarian regimes were “communist” regimes. No more than the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is either democratic or a republic, were any of the candidate regimes communist. In fact, many called themselves “socialist”. You might say, “fine, then socialism then, weren’t socialist regimes mass-murdering?” And I’d say you’d have to account for the fact that the European countries, many quite socialist, are not, and explain why it is that authoritarianism/totalitarianism seems to correlate more closely with such killings, both for nominally socialist ones and for fascist and RW ones (such as Argentina, fascist Spain, Chile, Guatemala, and Nazi Germany).
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 5:39 pmzuch says:
Actually, when it comes to mine workers historically, a fair number were killed by gummint agents (or by people working under gummint protection).
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 5:47 pmzuch says:
Yes, those foolish peace protesters that stated that Saddam was not some existential threat to the U.S. and did not have WoMD. How very silly of them….
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 5:49 pmzuch says:
Ask me a different question: Do I think that the tu quoque is a valid argument?
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 5:51 pmzuch says:
Leave Haiti (or Turkey or El Salvador or Peru or any number of poorer countries) out of this….
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 5:53 pmzuch says:
Vietnam intervened to stop the slaughter by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia while the good ol’ U.S. of A. sat on its thumbs.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 5:56 pmMark Field says:
It’s true to say that millions of Indians died, but most of them died from disease.
May 1, 2010, 6:05 pmMichael B says:
And John Wayne Gacy dressed up as a clown and entertained children. And, Zuch, for emphasis, that’s an exceedingly apt analogy, so I’d like to think your riposte is based upon a naivete rather than a desire to mislead. Following is a reproduction of a comment from a couple years ago:
Regarding South Vietnam, primarily with a focus upon post-April 1975 but also with a couple notes concerning the post-colonial period c. 1954-1975, the following:
+ 65,000 South Vietnamese were executed by the North Vietnamese, post-April, 1975
+ 250,000 South Vietnamese died in Soviet styled gulags and Maoist styled “reeducation” camps. (For a contrasting number, James Taranto took note of a 2001 investigation by the Orange County Register which came up with a number of 165,000 killed as a result of 1,000,000 being placed in those reeducation camps.)
+ A million South Vietnamese boat people, tens of thousands of which died at sea
+ Many hundreds to many thousands of suicides among the South Vietnamese leadership in the immediate wake of April 1975
+ 400,000+ South Vietnamese civilians killed by the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese regulars during the period c. 1954 – 1975. (E.g., the Ho Chi Minh Trail was originally created as a supply line and in order that propagandists, assassins and terrorists could infiltrate from the North into the South, coercing local, indigenous South Vietnamese populations into ideological compliance.)
+ More generally, Uncle Ho was not the simple nationalist as protrayed by the Western Left, he was a thoroughgoing ideologue and practitioner of Leninist/Stalinist styled totalitarian programs, from instilling a cult of personality to eliminating contenders for nationalist leadership via assassinations and intra-party purges. As Michael Lind notes, in the Kremlin on the evening of Feb. 14, 1950, three men toasted one another in a banquet hall: Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Ho Chi Minh. They weren’t simply college drinking buddies, they were there to discuss politics.
But yes, Uncle Ho’s North Vietnam, later Vietnam, was less lethal than Pol Pot’s Cambodia. File under: Damning with Exceedingly Faint Praise.
Numbers cited are out of Lewis Sorley’s “A Better War”. Sorley sources his numbers more specifically in footnotes. And of course all those numbers reflect killed only, not lives variously destroyed but short of being killed.
Many other resources are available, such as Bruce Herschensohn’s “American Amnesia” or Phillip Jennings “The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Vietnam War,” both of which have just very recently been released. I can provide another dozen or more volumes as well.
May 1, 2010, 6:27 pmBohemond says:
Like the fact that every single communist state has been/is a totalitarian dictatorship? “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” is part and parcel of Communism (and don’t bring up “pure Marxism”, or anarcho-syndicalism, or any other hypothetical collectivist utopia; there has never and can never be such a state, since Communism of any form at a national level can only be enforced through coercion).
May 1, 2010, 6:27 pmBohemond says:
You mean while Congressional liberals led by Ted Kennedy forced Ford to sit on his thumbs.
May 1, 2010, 6:32 pmBohemond says:
Zuch:
Sorry, it was not a tu quoque; logic fail.
The characterisation of the West Virginia miners as “victims of capitalism” advances the proposition, or carries with it the assumed premise, that capitalism as an economic system places miners and other workers at excessive risk relative to other economic systems (to wit, communism and/or socialism), with a further implied premise that capitalist profit-motive creates a cynical disregard for safety not present in workers’ paradises..
In which case, it is entirely valid to rebut the proposition empirically with the observation that mining and workplace safety are in fact *better* in capitalist nations than under the alternative.
Unless, perchance, you are suggesting that a system in which mine accidents never, ever occur is possible…
May 1, 2010, 6:44 pmMike Schilling says:
I wonder how many of the people saluting this idea consider turning Columbus Day into Indigenous Peoples Day to be PC claptrap, or would favor changing Confederate History Month into Victims of Slavery Month.
May 1, 2010, 6:50 pmBohemond says:
Even there, only if you accept the most extreme upper-edge estimates of the pre-contact native population. Pre-Columbian and pre-Anglo North American numbers and density is one of the most fiercely controversial subjects in anthropolgy, starting bar fights wherever anthro departments are found.
May 1, 2010, 6:52 pmzuch says:
You need to study more:
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 6:55 pmzuch says:
No. I mean while the U.S.A. sat on its thumbs. Even were I to grant you this “explanation” arguendo (which I don’t), it’s not relevant to the point I made.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 6:58 pmzuch says:
You’re saying that deaths due to capitalist operations are “better”.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 6:59 pmBohemond says:
Let’s look at that, shall we? In reverse order, February is already Black History Month nationwide.
As to Columbus Day: the European discovery and colonization of America was a very mixed blessing: Indians, their advocates and assorted guilt-trippers would like to characterize it as an unmitigated disaster, but objectively it’s hard to deny the tremendous benefits at least to Europeans and white colonists, and thence the rise of the United States and its influence on the world. (Lefties: insert snark here).
Whereas there was NO benefit, ever, from Communism: all bad, no good, and celebrations of its legacy are just as odious as celebrations of Nazism.
May 1, 2010, 7:00 pmGringo says:
They called themselves “communist,” in addition to many calling themselves “socialist.” Ex: Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Not communist? Have you ever heard of the CPSU, Communist Party of the Soviet Union? Ever heard of the CPC, a.k.a. Communist Party of China? Ever heard of KCP, a.k.a.Khmer(Cambodia) Communist Party?. The Worker’s Party of Korea ( North), originated from the Korean Communist Party.Lenin was not a communist? Some governments which have called themselves socialist have been democratic. Some governments which have called themselves socialist have not been democratic.Such as the government headed by the National Socialists in Germany. Such as the USSR, which also called itself communist. (Allende was of the Socialist Party.)
Which, contrary to your supposition, is why I call regimes such as USSR, PRC, GDR, DPRK et al communist. There are governments which call themselves socialist which are also democratic, as in social-democratic. See above discussion.
May 1, 2010, 7:01 pmBohemond says:
I’m saying that deaths due to capitalist operations are fewer. And fewer aggregate deaths, if you like, are indeed better.
I’m also saying that mining deaths, given present technology, can be minimized but cannot be reduced to zero. Mining is dangerous.
May 1, 2010, 7:05 pmYankee Dawn says:
Check your facts, please. Confederate Memorial Day was never to honor the Confederacy or its leaders but rather those who died in the Civil War, some volunteers, some drafted and some objectors.
May 1, 2010, 7:09 pmGringo says:
Zuch:
The applications of Marxist theory in the real world have all too often led to mass murder: USSR, PRC,North Korea, etc. The proof of a political theory is in its application in the real world, not in the fantasies of some deluded academic. By their fruits ye shall know them.
May 1, 2010, 7:25 pmMike says:
Two points:
1. It may be useful to differentiate between the “Communism” as a idea and attempts on its practical implementation, which as correctly was pointed out is not possible at the current level of economical and societal development. Taken by itself the idea of Communism, if people will care to actually read what it is, would be exceedingly attractive. The fact that it is an utopia,and can not be achieved not in 1917, not now and not in any near future, is beside the point. Terror and oppression of many so-called “communist” regimes (which in reality were not “communist” in any sense) comes precisely due attempting to reach unachievable goal. (It would be like trying to institute a democratic republic in medieval Europe: to make it work you’ll have to kill half the populace and the other half will promptly set up a new king)
2. I feel that not enough thought is given to the controlled flow and manipulation of of information that underlines “communist” regimes. For a majority of Soviet people “oppression” come as hindsight revelation with a sizable portion of population still refusing to accept the full scope, or even the existence, of any such opression. Stalin had widespread popular support inside the country with people willingly dying in his name. His death was met not with relieve, but with nearly universal, country-wide grief. He may have been seen as tyrant from outside, but he was viewed as a “father” and protector from inside.
May 1, 2010, 7:45 pmDr. Caligari says:
Saith Wikipedia: “May 1 is a national holiday in more than 80 countries: Albania, Armenia, Argentina, Aruba, Austria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belarus, Belgium, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, China, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, France, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Hong Kong, Hungary, Iceland, India, Iraq, Italy, Ivory Coast, Jordan, Kenya, Kosovo, Latvia, Lithuania, Lebanon, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malaysia, Malta, Mauritius, Mexico, Morocco, Myanmar (Burma), Nepal, Nigeria, North Korea, Norway, Pakistan, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, the Philippines, Portugal, Romania, Russian Federation, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Korea, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sweden, Syria, Thailand, Turkey, Ukraine, Uruguay, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zambia, and Zimbabwe.”
Given that it is still a holiday in most of the former USSR and also in other former Communist countries as well as a mixture of other democratic and non-democratic countries it seems a bit much to associate it specificially with Communism. Attempting to make it a Victims of Communism Day would probably be seen in most of the world as some cranky right-wing American thing, and not merely by leftists.
May 1, 2010, 8:03 pmBama 2L says:
Who’s the Bama 1L?
May 1, 2010, 8:39 pmtioedong says:
you may want to check out this story on Radio Prague:
link
there is a lot of resistance to opening up these atrocities in western Europe.
May 1, 2010, 8:43 pmMark Field says:
Your second sentence is spot on, but even pretty conservative estimates allow for millions of deaths (over a long period of time, of course).
May 1, 2010, 8:48 pmGringo says:
Perusal of these pictures indicate that it is not necessarily “a bit much” to associate the day with Communism, at least in certain areas.
May 1, 2010, 9:10 pmzuch says:
He was one of the victims of such totalitarian regimes, not one of the perps.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 9:25 pmzuch says:
OIC. So the “communist” countries are the ones that you say were the socialist countries that were mass killers. Then you wonder why communist countries are mass killers.
What do you call the countries that weren’t socialist that engaged in mass killing sprees (and FWIW, despite Jonah Goldberg’s execrable piece of pseudo-history, Nazi Germany wasn’t socialist any more that the DPRK is “democratic”). Are they “communist countries” too?
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 9:30 pmzuch says:
Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 9:33 pmzuch says:
Particularly if you belong to (or hope to join) a union.
I would note that Massey is saying that it was doing everything it could (or at least needed to) to make the mines safe. But the evidence says otherwise.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 9:34 pmzuch says:
If we took that tack with the Republican party, we’d come to some quite interesting conclusions. I’m waiting for this to catch on with the voters.
Cheers,
May 1, 2010, 9:39 pmCharlotte’s Pro Amnesty Protest : The Other McCain says:
[...] on | May 1, 2010 | No Commentsby SmittyThe Old Rebel dropped into Charlotte, NC to cover the Victims of Communism Day protest against those zany ‘Zonies who fetish security, the rule of law, and meaningful [...]
May 1, 2010, 10:10 pmKiller Chic « The American Catholic says:
[...] May 1, is the Victims of Communism Day. The above video is a nice commentary on the sickening adoration given by some Hollywood elites [...]
May 1, 2010, 11:12 pmAlan K. Henderson says:
I’ve been calling for replacing with Labor Day with Commerce Day, to celebrate all the ingredients of capitalism and not just one.
May 2, 2010, 12:16 amsashal says:
hey, gringo, my May 1st card to you :
May 2, 2010, 12:44 amhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KDQkNXS748
Gringo says:
I and most people call the regime that ruled Germany from 1933-1945 by the name “Nazi,” which is an acronym for National Socialist. Mussolini was a Marxist before he was a Fascist, so the delineation can get rather complex.
Very interesting that in a discussion on totalitarian regimes, two posters bring up Republicans. Throw in the kitchen sink when you can’t win the argument, I guess.
May 2, 2010, 7:08 amBohemond says:
One doesn’t have to rely on Jonah Goldberg to know that Nazi Germany was Socialist: all you have to do is study Nazi Germany. I would recommend starting with Nazi Economics: Ideology, Theory, and Policy by Avraham Barkai, and follow up with the recent papers (collected) by Richard Overy. Actually it only takes a minute to browse Hitler’s ’25-point program of the NSDAP.’ Or one can study Mussolini and his ‘corporative socialism;’ although the Italian Fascists never accomplished the comprehensive command economy and welfare state the Nazis did, their theory was more overtly tied in to the Socialist mainstream.
May 2, 2010, 7:13 amBlackMinorcapullets says:
May 2, 2010, 8:29 amzuch says:
Actually National Socialist German Workers Party. They really believed in “work”, setting up labour parks, and even putting that “work makes you free” sentiment on the gates of one.
Yeah, and if you paid attention, you’d call the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Whoopdedoo.
Pop quiz fer ya: What were the Nazis known for (aside from their notable character lapses of virulent prejudice and mass genocide)? Hint: Starts with “P”….
I’m getting tired of RWers trotting out this trope that Hitler was a SooperSekret Commie. Really.
Cheers,
May 2, 2010, 9:55 amzuch says:
‘Corporate socialism’ is an oxymoron, if you think about it (and pay even the least bit of attention to history).
Cheers,
May 2, 2010, 10:01 amBohemond says:
Then get used to fatigue, or correct your ignorance through study. That Nazi economic system was Socialist right down the line, indeed a modern “progressive’s” wet dream.
May 2, 2010, 11:10 amBohemond says:
Then complain to Mussolini, who coined the term (and implement it). It’s not actually an oxymoron at all: it means leving business nominally iin private hands but with their operations directed by the State, and taxed at confiscatory rates. Just a variant on state control of the means of production. But ‘corporative’ also meant ‘collective,’ as in a comprehensive welfare state, and a national labor union (also of course state-controlled). Hey, FDR was an open fan of Mussolini up until 1935, and vice-versa.
I would suggest that you “pay the least attention to history” by actually studying Fascism, rather than mindlessly parroting the conventional tropes of the Narrative. But then for years it’s been so very convenient (tho’ absurd) for the Left to toss epithets like Fascist! and Nazi! at Americans who are firmly opposed to statism.
May 2, 2010, 11:18 amArthur Kirkland says:
Any support for a Victims of Self-Described Anti-Communists Day, Prof. Somin?
Is being hacked to death in a Central American jungle clearing by a CIA-trained terrorist’s U.S.-supplied machete for advocating workers’ interests enough to make the list of noteworthy outrages?
Or are some ideological atrocities better left unexamined?
May 2, 2010, 4:59 pmBohemond says:
Oh FFS. Yeah, right. Viva la victoria siempre and all that.
Che (the psychopathic mass-murdering bastard) is dead. Get over it.
May 2, 2010, 5:17 pmzuch says:
WTF does that have to do with socialism? And did Mussoini and Hitler tax corporations at confiscatory rates?
Cheers,
May 2, 2010, 5:34 pmzuch says:
What’s “statism”?
And are the neo-Nazis/American Nazi Party socialists? Ummmm, nope. They’re right out there on the RW, hang with your buds.
The American Bunds, the America First folks, they were RW (and included some Republicans). They’re your ideological kin, and were opposed to what FDR was doing….
Cheers,
May 2, 2010, 5:38 pmBohemond says:
You need to get out more. Check out the manifesto of the neo-Fascist British National Party.
Did you just ask “what is statism?” Really? You’re kidding, right?
May 2, 2010, 5:45 pmGringo says:
Arthur Kirkland:
I suggest that you inform yourself on Central America. Such as: Central American Crisis Reader, by Leiken, Agony in the Garden by Sheehan, Un Nicaraguense en Moscu by Carlos Fonseca, Breaking Faith by Belli, Nicaragua: America’s Bleeding Heart by Martin Kriele, Chirley Chisolm’s Nicaragua: Revoution in the Family, Georgie Ann Geyer’s biography of Fidel Castro ( Guerrilla Prince) and her autobiography ( Buying the Night Flight), Roberto Czarkowski’s De Polonia a Nicaragua, Alaniz: Nicaragua: Una Revolucion Reaccionaria, Robert Turner: Nicaragua: A Look at the Facts, Omar Cabezas: Fire From the Mountain.
In March 1980 the USSR and Nicaragua signed this joint proclamation:
Three months after the USSR invaded Afghanistan ( Central American Crisis Reader. In Barricada in Spanish ~
March 23,1980.)
Not many are aware of what Miguel Descoto has said . Consider what he said upon receiving the Lenin Peace Prize in 1987, while the USSR was warring in Afghanistan.
The million dead Afghanis concurred with the fraternal Soviet Union, no?
May 2, 2010, 6:13 pmPlease learn about Central America.
¿Me entendés?
Michael B says:
So zuch’s opinings reflect no naivete – very much to the contrary. File under “Stalin’s Statistics,” sneer and dismiss with a boorish and arrogated contempt, then, more of same …
Roughly 800,000 variously murdered or led to their deaths in Uncle Ho’s hecatombs, many more lives and families variously destroyed, all that requires no accounting on the part of such “morally concerned” commenters.
May 2, 2010, 6:36 pmLaird Wilcox says:
Victims of Communism Day is misleading. A better name would be Victims of Marxism Day because this would deal with the origin of Communism and it’s primary philosopher, Karl Marx. Marxism has been, in all its permutations, the most vicious and lethal philosophy of the 20th Century, responsible for far more destruction of life, liberty and property than any other. Had it not been for Marx’s philosophy, other deadly movements that were based in part on reaction to the threat of Communism such as Nazism and Fascism, might never have emerged as well.
May 3, 2010, 9:48 amAlan K. Henderson says:
Mussolini wasn’t above bastardizing the meaning of words. (Isn’t that a common practice of authoritarians, anyway?)
“Socialism” – as Europeans tell us Americans when we misuse the term (we often mislabel welfare statism as “socialism”) – means that the State owns the means of production. When the private sector owns the means and the State the decisions of production, that’s economic fascism.
“Corporate socialism” might not be oxymoronic if it’s used to mean situations where the State buys up stock in corporations. Don’t know if that happened in Fascist Italy, but I can think of some more recent occurrences…
May 3, 2010, 2:33 pmNatan Press says:
When Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, Winston Churchill said “If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons.”
A war that was started, arguably, to free Poland, ended with Poland under Communist rule, and therefore Churchill’s greatest failure.
The enemy of my enemy is very rarely my friend (unless he was my friend first). Anti-communists these days range from Putin-supporting Solzhenitsyns to Hamas.
Collectivism was, is, and forever will be the enemy of Individualism. Communism is a collectivist mentality, and is therefor our enemy. But to focus on Communism is a mistake (a mistake often made by those in Individualist societies who try to impose collectivist identity, without realizing–if we’re giving them the benefit of the doubt–what they’re doing).
It is better, I think, to remember the victims of Collectivism, whatever its superficial label.
May 3, 2010, 3:25 pmDavid R. says:
It a shame there is no mention here of the holocaust of the Tibet Occupation, where over 1/5 of the population (over 1 million dead) was killed since the communist takeover. This was the death of an enlightened society at the hands of ignorant madmen, ignored by the free world who wanted to have business ties with the communists. Unlike the other countries typically mentioned, Tibet was a country with mostly altruistic leaders whose population held them in great regard. The Tibetan situation situation also differs in that it was an invasion and occupation.
May 4, 2010, 5:30 pmqwerty says:
Hey guys don’t forget your black US history and millions of victims of your system in Afganistan,Vietnam,Iraq.
May 15, 2010, 5:26 pmDon’t forget about what your oil companies are doing with the whole african continent.Don’t forget 9/11.Well and don’t forget that you still are giving lots of money to communists China to make yourselfs happy with all ipod things…