As I read 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1), it’s illegal for an professional gun dealer — such as a typical gun store — to sell a handgun to an 18-to-20-year-old. But it’s quite legal for a nonprofessional to sell it to the 18-to-20-year-old, and for the 18-to-20-year-old to buy it, even if the nonprofessional knows or suspects that the buyer is under 21. (I realize that some states ban handgun possession by under-21-year-olds, but I’m speaking here of the federal ban.) The 18-to-20-year-old can’t have someone buy it specifically for him, since that would be conspiracy to make a false statement, given that the straw purchaser would have to falsely assert that the gun is for the straw purchaser himself. (There’s a case on that, U.S. v. Bledsoe.) But if some private party is willing to sell a gun that he bought for himself, the 18-to-20-year-old can buy it, though of course the gun would generally be used, and wouldn’t come with a warranty.
Here’s my question: As a practical matter, how hard would it be for the 18-to-20-year-old to buy a gun this way? Do there tend to be classified ads — either on specialized Web sites or in traditional newspapers — that make such private transactions easy? Or is it hard to find such ads in many geographical areas, perhaps because all the local newspapers in that area (and all the relevant Web sites) refuse to take gun ads? I understand that there’s a pretty brisk market in private gun sales at gun shows; is that right, and are such gun shows generally pretty common in most geographical areas?
My guess is that unless there’s some Web site that offers classified ads for non-professional gun transactions, and has plenty of such ads in almost all geographical areas, getting a handgun through a traditional market wouldn’t be easy: Rather, it would generally require the 18-to-20-year-olds to rely on the help of friends or acquaintances who are willing to sell their handguns. (The friend can’t buy a gun for the 18-to-20-year-old, but he could sell a handgun he bought for himself, and then buy a new one to replace it.) And of course having to rely on friends or acquaintances’ existing handgun stock dramatically limits the selection one can have. But maybe I’m missing some important other legal way to buy a handgun.
mikeyes says:
Also, a family member could loan or give a pistol to an 18-20 year old. There are plenty of juniors who shoot target pistols and those weapons are probably owned by parents or the team they shoot for.
I suspect that most states that ban the ownership of handguns by juniors have a target exception that allows juniors to possess them or even a family ownership with possession under certain circumstances. (I have not checked this out.)
May 24, 2010, 6:32 pmmatt d says:
where private face-to-face transfers are legal, gun shows would be an easy way to go; just find a private seller willing to do a deal.
I see private for-sale signs regularly at a local shooting range, so in states where the transfer didn’t have to go through an FFL that’d be a viable option too.
Regarding geography, I couldn’t tell you for sure about the distribution of state laws; my impression was that most states allow private face-to-face transfers. California is not among them, which is a pretty big geographical area right there.
-m@
May 24, 2010, 6:36 pmJoeBlow1078 says:
A gun show would be the easiest option, but the buyer would need to keep in mind that many of the tables are maintained by licensed dealers who would not be able to sell. He would most likely have to turn to the folks walking around trying to sell, which probably is not the best way to find exactly what he is looking for if he has something particular in mind.
There are dozens of national websites that would pair up the purchaser with a willing private seller. There are geographic limitations, not because of the advertising, but because the buyer and seller would have to be residents of the same state. As a result, the buyer might have more trouble finding exactly what he wanted in states with smaller populations of gun owners.
This all assume the buyer lives in a state allows private purchases.
May 24, 2010, 6:38 pmSH says:
The purchase of firearms on the Internet usually happen between FFL dealers. These licenenced dealers must abide by Federal law and also the laws applicable to the state the transfer will be in. At gunshows nationwide,with a private transaction, it’s about cash and the integrity of the seller… Period.
Do I agree. Some.
But no Government offical will stop me from giving my Niece an HKP7 when She goes off to college. Law or not!
May 24, 2010, 6:46 pmohwilleke says:
The bigger issue is the background check. Even in many places where buying and selling to those under 21 is legal when it doesn’t involve dealers, an increasing number of states require background checks even for private sales.
Facilitating a face to face private sale would IMHO not be very hard. There are lots of places where those under 21 can go and congregate with people who are likely to be gun owners, e.g. hunting groups, Republican party gatherings, gun shows, military enthusiasts clubs, country music nightclubs, gangs, high school friends, hanging out in front of pawn shops, etc. And, these days, the used property markets (using market in the abstract rather than the physical sense) are generally flooded with sellers and short of buyers, rather than the other way around, from bicycles to diamond rings. Given the extent to which socially inept or mentally ill people seem to be able to buy guns in private sales (which we hear about after some major shooting), I doubt that it can be that hard.
The other issue is getting a concealed carry permit, without which one can have a handgun but can’t take it anywhere outside a home or perhaps a business.
May 24, 2010, 6:48 pmMarvin Dao says:
There are plenty of firearms hobbyist forums with sections for firearms sales and trades, and a few eBay style auction sites that allow private sellers to list firearms. As long as the buyer lives in a state that doesn’t prohibit face to face sales, it’s a trivial task to find a wide selection of pistols available for purchase from private parties.
Finding a private party that would be willing to sell a pistol to a 18-20 year old is much more difficult though. Most sellers will not sell pistols or “assault weapons” to people under 21 years old even if it is legal in their state.
May 24, 2010, 6:49 pmtomhynes says:
At least in Arizona
http://phoenix.backpage.com/
has a pretty good online marketplace for guns. Sort of like a gun friendly Craig’s list.
May 24, 2010, 6:50 pmTatil says:
If being a licensed dealer impose significant restrictions, what is the advantage of getting a license? Is there a sales volume limit under which one can claim a “non-professional” status?
May 24, 2010, 6:51 pmAnon says:
You forgot 922(x):
[EV writes: I deleted the long block quote from the statute, since it used up several pages of comment space. But I have a question for the author: Doesn't that statute apply only to sales to under-18-year-olds?]
May 24, 2010, 6:52 pmTatil says:
Can’t you carry the gun in a visible holster if you don’t have the permit?
May 24, 2010, 6:55 pmMich JD says:
Private gun sales are actually relatively uncommon at gun shows. There are some, but it’s overwhelmingly (like 99.8% level) FFL’s in most places. The “gun show loophole” is not accurate in most places.
Some newspapers advertise handgun sales. One of my friends (who was 21 at the time) purchased one in Grand Rapids, Michigan based on a classified ad.
From my experience, most under 21 year olds that have legal guns received them as gifts from their parents. In gun owning communities, guns make great gifts.
May 24, 2010, 6:56 pmChris says:
No he didn’t. Eugene’s question is about 18-20 year olds. The statute you quoted only concerns people under 18:
May 24, 2010, 6:56 pmChris says:
Vermont and Alaska allow anyone who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed, no permit necessary (Arizona has recently changed its law to allow the same, but they limit it to those 21 and over). Many states allow open carry without any sort of permit, license, or age restriction.
May 24, 2010, 6:59 pmShelbyC says:
How so? Doesn’t the post refer to 18-20 year olds?
May 24, 2010, 6:59 pmKenB says:
Easier than a gun show is the classified ads of the newspaper, at least in Texas where I live.
People who can afford a table at a gun show are licensed dealers. You do occasionally see someone wandering around with a firearm for sale, but not every time. I’ve bought only a few firearms at gun shows, but every time it was from a licensed dealer, and I went through a background check.
May 24, 2010, 7:00 pmDougger says:
Back in the day (pre-interweb) you would just go down to the newsstand and pick up a copy of Shotgun News or Gun List which are chock full of classified ads for guns of all types.
These publications are still around and are a good source for used guns.
May 24, 2010, 7:02 pmGainesvilleGuest says:
Gun shows are common in every metropolitan area I’ve lived in. I’ve lived all over the country. There are usually private transactions going on, but they are an infinitesimal portion of the sales that occur.
May 24, 2010, 7:04 pmWaste93 says:
Online sales that cross state lines have to have the firearms shipped to an FFL holder. Before the buyer can pick it up from the FFL they have to have the background check and abide by the relevant laws. So it’s highly unlikely an 18-20 can get one that way.
Gun shows may be a source via private seller. However some states, including the one I’m in, require background checks on ANY sale that occurs on the grounds of the gun show.
The advantage of gettin a license is you don’t have to undergo the background check. Since you undergo one when you get the license you are assumed to be in compliance. Other advantages is that you can have firearms shipped directly to you and do not have to go thru an FFL (since you are one). You can also operate a business in regards to firearms. I don’t think the BATFE has specific number of firearms that need to be sold to qualify as being in business.
The other issue is the number of different of firearms license. Besides the generic one for a business, there is a seperate one for automatic weapons, supressors, destructive devices, manufacturing, and some others.
May 24, 2010, 7:07 pmFederal Farmer says:
There is Gun Broker (gunbroker.com) but it’d have to be an in-state transaction and the seller would have to be willing to sell the handgun without involving an FFL.
May 24, 2010, 7:14 pmSteveLaudig says:
and 16 year olds drink Budweiser, not Guinness
May 24, 2010, 7:15 pmMarvin Dao says:
The primary advantage is not having the BATFE storm your house for being an unlicensed firearms dealer. Becoming a licensed dealer also has other advantages like being able to purchase firearms at dealer rates, being able to ship firearms through the USPS, and being able to do business out of state. There are enough advantages that some hobbyists become licensed dealers even though they have no intention of performing sales or transfers other than the minimum required to prevent the BATFE from discontinuing their license.
The sales volume at which you’re required to get a license is a bit subjective and depends whether the BATFE believes you’re buying and selling firearms for personal or commercial purposes.
May 24, 2010, 7:15 pmMark Horning says:
For a private sale one would look in the following places:
1) classified section of local newspaper. (less common in the internet days)
2) classified section of your local gun board (example arizonashooting.com)
3) classified secton of national gun board (example ar15.com) with search criteria set to ones state of residence.
4) local gun show, but selection will be pretty limmited, since 98% of the sellers are FFLs. Private sellers will either be waling around with a sign, or congregating at the entrance.
Otherwise it is perfectly legal to GIFT an 18-20 year-old a handgun.
Ammo can be an issue though, as you have to be 21 to buy handgun ammo. There is no such restriction on handloading amo though, which is why I started handloading at 18. (i.e. I could buy a .45, but not buy ammo, but could buy the pars to make ammo)
May 24, 2010, 7:19 pmbud says:
30 years ago, it would be trivial. Newspapers had a specific classification in the “classified ad” section for guns, and they were well populated.
Today, I can’t think of any major market newspaper which accepts classified advertising for firearms or even accessories.
There are specialty publications, but even there, stranger to stranger private deals are almost exclusively long guns. The threat of legal liability for handguns (encouraged by by both ATF and the media) is enough to discourage almost all such sales.
I’ve known a number of instances over the years where 18 year olds have their own pistols, but every one has been via family gifts.
May 24, 2010, 7:24 pmKharn says:
A gift from an over 21 adult does not violate the straw purchase or age restriction laws. There are also many websites for face-to-face gun sales in states where they are permitted.
They can also legally acquire ammo for it by owning a rifle in the same caliber (9mm and 22lr are common, 45 is a little harder to find) so they can truthfully tell the gun dealer that it is for a rifle. Otherwise, they’re SOL and need someone to buy it for them, but there are no laws against ammo straw purchases.
May 24, 2010, 7:27 pmSt. Aquinas says:
At least in Portland, OR you could just go to any of three or so flea markets on Sunday and buy one used, no questions asked… Hell, I even see handguns at garage sales at least every couple weeks.
May 24, 2010, 7:28 pmThumbcruncher says:
Eugene, I contacted a friend of mine who has an FFL and sold me a pistol a few years ago (legally given all the paper work). He stated that you have too many different scenarios, each having a different answer.
I asked him since he doesn’t sell arms professionally (storefront). His FFL is primarily to cut the cost of buying guns or gun parts for his own use with a smaller business of selling to members of the various gun groups and clubs he shoots with.
May 24, 2010, 7:30 pmMariaS says:
In AZ, private parties sell firearms on the radio. See: http://libertywatchradio.com/swap_shop
May 24, 2010, 7:31 pmTim Starr says:
Open carry’s legal even for minors w/ parental consent, even here in CA (unless they pass AB1934). There’s about 40 states that allow open carry, CA’s the only one that requires unloaded open-carry (except within 1000 feet of a K-12 school, and in some government buildings).
May 24, 2010, 7:43 pmDarel Finkbeiner says:
There are places.
More importantly it is apparently preferred to use “a history” and “an professional”? What is this world coming to…
May 24, 2010, 7:45 pmSecond history says:
Here is a grouping of states based on their open carry status, as of August 2009:
May 24, 2010, 8:11 pmGordon Langston says:
If he or she is active in hunting or shooting for sport purposes or in an active local firearm organization they will likely have some access to purchasing from private parties. Not sure how they would get a Target .22 pistol to get into Olympic style competition if they didn’t have someone help. Some states may have exemptions for this.
May 24, 2010, 8:12 pmShelbyC says:
Gotcha with the “an professional” but “an history” always seemed hypercorrect to me. It’s not like we’re speaking French.
May 24, 2010, 8:17 pmTim Starr says:
CA open carriers haven’t ever been charged w/ scaring anyone just because they were open-carrying, AFAIK. Enforcement varies – Fremont PD, where I live, has published a map of the city’s gun-free school zones so we can tell where it’s legal to carry & where it’s not:
http://www.fremontpolice.org/pdfs/pdfs/carrymap.pdf
Rumor has it that Oakland PD, on the other hand, has a policy of cuffing open-carriers, putting them in the squad car, and confiscating their guns, no matter what.
May 24, 2010, 8:19 pmChrisIowa says:
You can carry a handgun in a case and it is not considered concealed.
May 24, 2010, 8:21 pmRoger the Shrubber says:
Just to add a few data points:
Private firearms sales at gunshows (by “walkarounds” with “for sale” signs on firearms they carry, and by private sellers/collectors selling from tables) are extremely common where I live (Virginia). As are the gunshows themselves. You don’t typically see modern handguns sold in this fashion, though. From what I can tell, the vast majority of sales of modern handguns at gunshows are by licensed dealers.
I’ve got a C&R FFL and would never sell a handgun, C&R or otherwise, to someone under 21. Not even sure if it’s legal for me to do so or not — I’ve never checked because I just wouldn’t do it.
Unfortunately for my wallet, my transactions are almost uniformly acquisitions anyway. :)
By the way, I’ve often wondered about the “gifting” of firearms. Can a person intending to give a firearm as a gift truthfully fill out the form?
May 24, 2010, 8:23 pmDave says:
I bought by first handgun this way – I was only 18, but bought it from a private seller intra-state. This was in Massachusetts, of all places, where prior to 1998 you could get a license to own and carry a handgun at 18. I got one and bought a pistol from another MA resident who decided he didn’t like the gun. Not hard at all.
In addition to more traditional print ads, there are also state-specific websites such as Virginia’s vaguntrader.com, that facilitate the private intra-state sale market.
May 24, 2010, 8:40 pmbill-tb says:
It’s easy to buy guns around the local high school, right next to the drug sales. Hey I am only half kidding …
May 24, 2010, 8:50 pmNoah says:
The 26th Amendment to the US Constitution
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
May 24, 2010, 9:02 pmGlen says:
As several commenters have noted, there are many websites that facilitate the buying and selling of firearms. Some of the more popular sites that are dedicated solely to firearms commerce include: Gunbroker.com, GunsAmerica.com, GunsInternational.com, and AuctionArms.com. The success of these services is due in large part to a decision by eBay’s CEO Meg Whitman to prohibit firearms and firearms-related goods from eBay (Whitman is also a current Republican candidate for governor in California).
There is also a payment intermediation service called GunPal that is an analog to Paypal. It, too, filled a market gap created when Paypal (an eBay subsidiary) decided to prohibit firearm and firearm-related transactions.
Many other “forum” websites also offer firearms and firearms-related classified listing. Some of these sites focus on individual states or regions (e.g., Calguns.net or NortheastShooters.com), while others are nationwide in scope (e.g., AR15.com, TheFiringLine.com, or TheHighRoad.us). Still others may be dedicated to a particular shooting sport (e.g., SnipersHide.com) or a particular manufacturer’s products (e.g., Smith-WessonForum.com). Many of these forum websites restrict access to classified listings to registered members.
These web services have largely supplanted private sales at gun shows. The continued focus on the so-called “gun show loophole” by gun control advocates seems somewhat misplaced in light of this evolution in the firearms marketplace.
Of course, any firearm transaction facilitated through these websites must still conform to both federal and local laws. This means that any interstate transfer must occur via a Federal Firearms Licensee (what might be called a “professional gun dealer”). But wholly interstate transfers are only subject to state laws; so someone between the ages of 18 and 20 can easily search these sites for firearms available for sale in their state of residence, and if legal in their state, can purchase a firearm directly from an individual buyer.
And intrafamily transfers (e.g, between parent and child) are neither subject to federal law nor most state laws, either. For those over 18 and under 21, this is probably the easiest way to obtain a handgun.
May 24, 2010, 9:06 pmGlen says:
You are a federal firearms licensee, so you are subject to 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(1).
May 24, 2010, 9:10 pmGlen says:
Yes, as long as the gift transaction is legal under federal law. If so, it would not qualify as a “straw purchase.”
May 24, 2010, 9:12 pmSun Tzu's Nephew says:
Legally, not ‘usually’…always. I can’t buy a firearm on the internet without the transfer occurring through an FFL.
May 24, 2010, 9:34 pmChris says:
Here in NC, you are required to obtain from your sheriff a pistol purchase permit for the acquisition of ANY handgun or crossbow. No sheriff I know if will issue those permits to people between 18 and 21 as a normal course. I have seen about a half dozen examples of them being granted, mostly in cases of inheritance. State law makes no restriction that they cannot be issued to people under 21 but there is a clause in law that says that the sheriff is responsible for verifying the good moral character of permit applicants.
May 24, 2010, 9:49 pmJoe Kowalski says:
The publication I work for takes classified ads from private individuals to sell firearms of all types. In fact it is one area of our classifieds that has held up strong in lieu of competition from Craig’s List who outright bans ads for guns. Then again, we don’t accept the ads without pre-payment via check or AVS verified credit card, so there are no ‘Anonymous’ sales happening. The business in the section is quite brisk and the advertisers do quite well.
May 24, 2010, 10:04 pmElliot says:
Just pass the word among friends and acquaintances specifying what he wants. Something perfectly legal will turn up.
May 24, 2010, 10:34 pmdenton says:
Gun shows are so 20th century. They boil down to little more than spending $10 to see what all the local gun shops had on their shelves yesterday. Very, very few of the firearms offered at gun shows are sold by non-dealers.
The whole notion that there is some kind of special loophole that applies only to gun shows is absurd. The exact same federal laws apply to firearms sold through newspaper ads, over the back fence between neighbors, and at gun shows. The gun show loophole myth was invented by anti-gun advocates specifically to use feeble-minded voters as theater props.
May 24, 2010, 11:01 pmGlen says:
I posted a brief compilation on the state of Internet firearms commerce, with links to several sites.
Apparently, these links sent my post to moderation hell… so here is the post without links:
May 24, 2010, 11:03 pmmack says:
Most 18 to 20 year olds that legally have handguns get them via family as gifts. However, there are a plethora of state laws that govern gun ownership and use so it depends greatly on the state of residence as to the availablity or legality of handguns for 18 to 20 year olds. As has been stated – other than family you are primarily looking (if it is legal in one’s state of residence) at finding an individual who is willing to sell a handgun in a private in-state sale. Even then it is not uncommon for individuals to be unwilling to privately sell a handgun to someone under 21, though they may be willing in some cases to do a private sale to an older member of the individuals family.
Practically speaking it is often much easier for a 18 to 20 year old to buy a handgun off the street through local gang bangers, though in that case the odds are very good that it is stolen and/or has been involved in other crimes.
The majority of newspapers and nationally owned chains of newspapers no longer accept adds for firearms. There are private sellers at gun shows, but as most have noted most are not selling modern handguns – most are selling rifles or shotguns. The internet is a place to locate a local seller who may want to sell a handgun in a private sale – but as indicated a lot of private sellers are cautious about selling handguns in particular to individuals under 21 even if it is legal. As someone noted you can find them at some estate or occassional garage sales – though most estate sales use an FFL – and garage sales are a big crap shoot – the vast majority don’t have any guns and those that do usually have shotguns and rifles.
All that said – that is why most handguns legally owned by 18 to 20 year olds are gifts from family.
Also would add that most states practically are very restrictive when it comes to 18 to 20 year olds being able to legally carry a handgun for self-defense or non-hunting purposes.
May 24, 2010, 11:25 pmChrisIowa says:
As I understand it, in the years BC (Before Clinton) many collectors and such who with some frequency bought and sold for their own collections or use, being cautious types, obtained FFL licenses to ensure their activities were legal. Under Clinton the BATF(E) advised them that a FFL license was not necessary for their purposes and their licenses were revoked. Clinton could then trumpet the great reduction in numbers of FFL dealers. When the the insta-check system was later developed it was inaccessible to these now formerly licensed dealers who are now conducting completely legal private sales without the paperwork requirements. If they were FFL dealers as in the years BC, they would use the procedures of an FFL dealer and the insta-check system in an abundance of caution to ensure that their transactions are legal and with legal buyers. Now the status as an FFL dealer is not available to them as they do not have sufficient volume or a fixed place of business. The transactions they conducted previously as dealers are now private, unlicensed transactions.
May 24, 2010, 11:27 pmLarryA says:
Not really. It’s been several years since any state passed such a law, and most states don’t have that regulation. Actually the trend since about 2005 has been for more states to rescend/eliminate gun control provisions than pass them.
In Texas a person who is active duty military or has successfully completed military service qualifies for a CHL at 18. In fact, the state waives the fee for a license for anyone on active service or who has completed military service in the last year, and cuts it in half for all veterans under 60.
According to the Federal Form 4473 any person who regularly engages in the business of selling firearms must be licensed. There is a minimum below which a license is not necessary, but BATFE refuses to disclose what it is.
The San Antonio Express-news does. So does the Houston Chronicle.
May 24, 2010, 11:29 pmmack says:
Excellent point – ChrisIowa – on the unintended consequences of the FFL crack down under Clinton.
Just curious EV – why do you ask?
May 24, 2010, 11:38 pmMark says:
Tons of private sales through the web. Here in Florida, for example:
Florida Shooter’s Network
Florida Gun Trader
Fla Guns
Guns shows are always a happening place for private sales, unless the county prohibits them (Miami-Dade and Palm Beach do, unless both parties have a CWP–which an 18-20 year old cannot obtain.)
You should come to the 3 times a year collector’s show in Lakeland–the biggest show in Florida (Jan., April and Sept.). The center concourse between the two halls is Let’s Make A Deal.
May 25, 2010, 12:03 amMike P Wagner says:
To answer the question you actually asked, I think that while it would be pretty easy in theory for an 18-20 year old to buy a gun face to face, in practice the answer would be “pretty hard”.
Many hobbyists would be extremely reticent sell a gun to someone under 21 – I would not do so, and I think most of my gun nut buddies would as well.
The potential liabilities are just too high. If you sell a gun to and 18 year old who shoots up his high school gym class two weeks later, you are going to be in for a heck of legal ride – even if you did not break any laws by doing so. You can count on being pilloried as the evil guy who “sold a gun to a troubled kid”. I assume that you would eventually prevail, but it would be a pretty wild ride.
Why you want to assume that liability when you could avoid the whole mess and sell the gun to someone over 21?
If I am correct about most hobbyist sellers feeling this way, I think that locating a seller will be a challenge.
I have bought several guns through the Internet, but all of those had to go through an FFL.
The gun shows I have been to have all had way over-priced weapons sold exclusively by FFLs. I understand that I missed the “golden age” of gun shows, but I haven’t noticed anyone skulking around the parking lot doing private sales when I was there. If I did notice such persons, I would assume them to be BATF agents running a sting.
All in all, I suspect that it’s pretty darn hard for an 18-20 year old to legally buy a handgun. The FFLs can’t do so, and the hobbyists would be pretty wary.
May 25, 2010, 12:04 amFiftycal says:
In Texas, an 18 y/o could buy a gun from an “unlicensed dealer”, aka CIVILIAN. They could buy it anywhere in the state. Tx.guns, on the old bulletin board system still has individual guns for sale. Word of mouth, garage sales, on the street, mostly stolen and gun shows. And 21 and with a Concealed Handgun License, no “background” check, just filling out the 4473(yellow form) that is not supposed to leave the dealers premise. And if you buy a used gun, unless it is one that the dealer originally sold and took back, the used gun is not going to have a means of being easily traced.
May 25, 2010, 12:24 amKazinski says:
There is a perfectly legal way for an 18-20 year old to buy a hand gun in all 50 states ( I think it would work in all 50 ). First buy an Blackpowder pistol via mail order. There is no background check and it is legal for 18-20 year old.
Then buy a drop in cylinder conversion kit, no license required or background check required. This particular configuration fires .45 long colt ammunition. The gun, and cylinder can ship via USPS or UPS.
To buy ammunition the youngster in question would have to represent it is a for a rifle, of which many models are available that shoot .45 long Colts. Federal firearms laws forbids sale of handgun ammunition to persons under 21, but it can be sold to 18-21 year olds if it is dual use ammunition and the seller believes it is intended for a long gun.
This also works for anybody that doesn’t want to or think they can pass a background check.
The only thing needed is a credit card and $600.00.
May 25, 2010, 12:44 amKaz2 says:
Kazinski says ( I’m reposting this because my original comment said it was waiting for moderation. I assuming its because I said “c r e d i t card” and it thought it was spam. It disapeared my links but maybe the original will eventually show up.) :
There is a perfectly legal way for an 18–20 year old to buy a hand gun in all 50 states ( I think it would work in all 50 ). First buy an Blackpowder pistol via mail order. There is no background check and it is legal for 18–20 year old.
Then buy a drop in cylinder conversion kit, no license required or background check required. This particular configuration fires .45 long colt ammunition. The gun, and cylinder can ship via USPS or UPS.
To buy ammunition the youngster in question would have to represent it is a for a rifle, of which many models are available that shoot .45 long Colts. Federal firearms laws forbids sale of handgun ammunition to persons under 21, but it can be sold to 18–21 year olds if it is dual use ammunition and the seller believes it is intended for a long gun.
This also works for anybody that doesn’t want to or think they can pass a background check.
The only thing needed is a cr###dit card and six hundred dollars.
May 25, 2010, 1:07 am~aardvark says:
Some interesting comments on gun shows–some appear to be based on second-hand information.
In some areas, garage/yard sales can lead to gun sales. When I lived in Ohio (I was 21, but there was no way for the seller to know that), a guy offered me not only a choice of several weapons, but also offered “a friend” to saw off a shot gun “for protection”. I was more amused than interested, especially considering he had some Nazi paraphernalia in his closet. Apparently he decided to tone down his lifestyle when he became a father.
I’ve seen some signs at Wisconsin yard sales that suggested that the seller offered a gun for sale, but inside the house. Selection in such cases, of course, is limited. But the question did not specify the type of weapon.
All of these observations were made well before craigslist, almost 20 year ago. Today things might be even easier.
May 25, 2010, 1:12 amDon Meaker says:
Black powder (cap and ball) revolvers are not regulated the same way as more modern revolvers and pistols. Still they are very effective (though slower loading) discharging large heavy bullets with significant effect. The Civil War Cavalry soldier would sometimes carry as many as 4 on his saddle, for 20 rounds of social interaction at short notice.
May 25, 2010, 1:36 amMatthew Carberry says:
I bought my first handguns from a co-worker at 18 in the late ’80s, perfectly legally under state (Alaska) and Federal law.
I presume, like most face-to-face transactions of anything, most FTF gun sales are people who know each other somewhat, friend of a friend, fellow club member, co-worker, etc. We have newspaper ads, gun shows and local net forums up here as well of course, just sold an evil black rifle that way.
To slightly correct what Chris posted, open carry is legal in Alaska for anyone lawful to possess the handgun, with parental permission under state law that is technically 14. Concealed carry, with or without permit, is limited to lawful possessors age 21 or up.
Purchase and possession (and carry) at 18-20 by the otherwise law-abiding is and should be no big deal; 21 is, in the end, as arbitrary (and asinine) an age limit for legal purchase as it is for alcohol.
May 25, 2010, 2:58 amKazinski says:
With the conversion cylinder it shoots conventional .45 long colts. The conversion cylinder just drops in, and then there is no need to shoot black powder with it.
May 25, 2010, 3:02 amOliver says:
Respectfully, Professor Volokh, I think your question is somewhat naive. In areas where gun violence is a real problem (think government housing projects) there is a thriving second hand market for guns that doesn’t use any advertising other than word of mouth. Selection isn’t really an issue to most people in that market — they take what they can get until there is a chance to trade up.
May 25, 2010, 7:19 amAlan Gunn says:
Several commenters have claimed that many or most private sellers won’t sell to someone under 21, even though it’s legal. Even if this is true, it wouldn’t be a serious problem for an 18-20 year old with an accommodating over-21 friend or relative, because the Federal ban on “straw purchases” applies only to purchases from an FFL.
It may also be worth noting that although private sales are often called “face-to-face” transactions, they don’t have to be: you can do the transaction long-distance and ship the pistol UPS.
May 25, 2010, 8:10 amRobert says:
And people thought Jim Crow was dead…
(Back when that statute was passed in 1919, “good moral character” was longhand for “white.” I wouldn’t be too surprised to see it still used to prevent firearm purchase by whatever minority group sheriffs designate as “undesirables”).
May 25, 2010, 8:30 amMike P Wagner says:
Somewhere on my long list of things to do when the last of my kids goes off to college is an attempt to get enough gun owners to join the ACLU to get the ACLU to litigate this law.
There appears to be a wild disparity between counties as to what the sheriff considers “good moral character”. I feel pretty confident that a close analysis will show racial disparities.
I feel heartened by the fact that the Texas ACLU has litigated on the side of gun owners in the last couple of years, and I’d like to see the NC ACLU do the same thing.
May 25, 2010, 9:10 amMike P Wagner says:
Every time I come across those conversion cylinders in the Midway catalogue, I wonder how they work, legally – mostly they are such an obvious way to circumvent handgun regulations. I happen t notice them because I shoot a .45 long colt (a Blackhawk in my case, not a conversion).
I am surprised that Midway can sell a conversion kit that changes the “class” of the weapon from one that is exempted from most regulations (black powder) to pretty highly regulated (handgun).
Does anyone actually know if the BATFE has ever issued a policy statement about those kits?
May 25, 2010, 9:21 amChrisIowa says:
Or you could work on the legislature to change the law.
May 25, 2010, 10:54 am18-20 Year Old Handgun Possession | Snowflakes in Hell says:
[...] Eugene Volokh asks and interesting question about how hard it would be for 18-20 year olds to get a …. Federal law prevents anyone under the age of 21 from buying a handgun from a federally licensed dealer, but in most states 18-20 years olds are permitted to purchase and possess firearms under state law. [...]
May 25, 2010, 12:04 pmPeteJ says:
Easy if you know what you are doing and where to look.
1.)Ask around at the local range/gun club. There are always deals going on between members.
2.)Private sale at a gun show.
3.)State/local discussion board classifieds are the best. Most of the communication in the gun rights world is via these boards. I picked up a Taurus 85 for half price via one of these. Since most all sales are by private sellers, the 21+ law does not apply. This is where I would recommend looking.
4.)There are other boards that were mentioned like ar15.com or thefiringline.com. In fact, a lot of the individual pistol brands have a dedicated discussion board (xdtalk, glocktalk, m1911.org). All of these have a classified section.
5.)As mentioned above, black powder pistols can be had at 18. Buy a Walker Colt, most powerful handgun until the .357 was introduced in 1935
6.)Buy a AR15 reciever, and build a “pistol” out of it. Not very practical, but still technically a pistol. I believe the BATF-U is onto this, and may be limiting reciever sales to 21+.
7.)Get one as a gift or inheritance
May 25, 2010, 12:14 pmLance says:
When I was a 19 year old college student, I went to a shooting range just to learn how to fire a gun. Unsolicited, the gun shop guy said that the store couldn’t sell me a gun, but he’d be happy to sell me one from his personal collection, and he (literally) winked. I imagine that’s not uncommon. I declined.
May 25, 2010, 12:46 pmmack says:
“Alan Gunn says:It may also be worth noting that although private sales are often called “face-to-face” transactions, they don’t have to be: you can do the transaction long-distance and ship the pistol UPS”
This is not advice to follow generally, if that “long distance” is crossing state lines – at least if you and the person selling want to remain within the law and legal.
I think these posts point out the huge variance in laws and cultures throughout the states – I hope no one takes some of the advice given here as necessarily legal for their locality or state. It is very easy to inadvertently commit a crime by violating local or state firearms law. For example, in CA the law as I understand it requires that all firearm transfers go through an FFL – and that includes family gifts.
Interesting that yet again this year – with the huge increase in firearm sales – and more people than ever being able to carry firearms legally – that murder and other crimes have continued to decline – kind of hard to square the notion of more guns and more accessible guns = more crime and violence – when there are more guns and more accessible guns and crime continues to drop – even in the middle of the worst depression since 29. It may not prove that more guns equal less crime, but it certainly doesn’t support the opposite proposition by a long shot.
May 25, 2010, 12:51 pmAlan Gunn says:
Mack wrote:
Nothing in federal law says the transaction can’t be “crossing state lines.” So long as both parties are residents of the same state a private sale between them is legal; if one of them happens to be in another state at the time of the sale, it doesn’t matter. Note that one can be a resident of more than one state for this purpose. I never suggested that one could legally buy a handgun from someone not a resident of the buyer’s state without going through an FFL. There is indeed a large amount of misinformation in some of the comments to this post. None of it was supplied by me.
May 25, 2010, 1:09 pmMark Horning says:
Correct. Long distance on the East coast and long distance in the West can be different things. (We have counties larger than some states.) If it crosses state lines during a sale, it has to go to an FFL, but a private party can ship a handgun fom Tucson to Flagstaff leagaly.
CA is a special case, as private party sales have had to go through an FL and fill out a DROS form since 1991. Other than CA, most restricive states are in the NorthEast.
May 25, 2010, 1:25 pmRT says:
“You shouldn’t carry open firearms in these states just to avoid a charge of bringing terror to the people which only requires a citizen to see you carry open firearms and saying they are in fear. You will get charged. ”
In North Carolina, one of the states you listed, the law is written that you have to have the “intent” to cause fear or panic in the public. They may arrest you, but if it goes to the final showdown in court, they will lose. There have been several cases in NC where the charges have been dropped or not guilty verdicts have been reached. Many thousands of people carry openly in NC and have no problems. Two municipalities have laws restricting open carry in NC. ( Ironicly, Cary NC is one of them… )
May 25, 2010, 1:43 pmzippypinhead says:
My experience is skewed because most young adult handgun transfers I’m aware of came to my attention after they subsequently led to entanglements with the criminal justice system.
In urban areas, one can easily acquire a handgun in FTF “no-questions-asked” cash transactions without much more difficulty than one can buy street drugs. Street prices tend to be highly discounted because the firearms are assumed to be of questionable legality – often stolen, crime guns, etc. Operability and prior maintenance are also questionable, and the buyer (and seller) generally run the same sort of physical risk in conducting the transaction that one does buying or selling illegal drugs. Thus, even though such purchases are “easy,” they tend NOT to be a good option for most law-abiding young adults.
On the assumption you’re interested in LEGAL transfers, my anecdotal sense is that the single largest category would be intergenerational gifts of guns already owned by other family members (e.g., Johnny gets Gramp’s beloved .38 spl revolver). Gifts of new handguns from parent to child are also not uncommon, but may tend to be purpose-driven (eg., Johnny needs a handgun for target competition at the gun club, or Sally’s first apartment is in a neighborhood that makes Dad nervous).
I suspect that the majority of legal young adult private sales also tend to be between acquaintances, for the reasons given in comments above. I could only speculate about intrastate Internet transactions on sites like gunbroker.com — but given most young adults’ familiarity with e-commerce, they may be a lot more popular options for the Millennial generation than us old guys realize.
May 25, 2010, 2:02 pmPeteJ says:
I bought my first pistol via gunbroker when I turned 21 (at 25% off brick and mortar stores). The only catch is getting a FFL to recieve it for you, which usually costs ~$20. For me there was nothing odd about it, e-commerce is the way to go. For young people the internet is the way to get a pistol before they are 21. It also provides lots of adivce on how to obtain one and stay legal, something that young people without an elder or mentor lack (like myself).
May 25, 2010, 2:14 pmmack says:
Alan – don’t disagree with what you say – but an uninformed individual could easily read your initial post to mean that they could legally buy a gun from a private individual pretty much anywhere and have it directly shipped to them and be legal. The specifics you added in your second post make it clear that is not always or simply the case. As you rightly point out there are a number of requirements and statutes that govern how that may be legally done. It just serves to point out the complexity of the laws involved when it comes to firearms and the wide variation from state to state with what is legal and what is not. That is why I stated “generally” and indicated a distinction between intrastate and interstate. Which as you point out there are in the laws details exceptions to that. Also – some here (not you) have mentioned illegal methods for obtaning guns – and though I don’t believe for a second that any are advocating that a person do so – it is important that the less informed readers not be mislead as to what is or isn’t legal. You obviously are aware of firearm laws but the majority of citizens are not.
May 25, 2010, 3:30 pmohwilleke says:
Few state laws prohibit a visible holster, but many municipal ordinances do, and in practice, walking around with a visible holster in an urban area is very likely to lead to police following you around unless you are a security guard. Ostracism is a surprisingly effective means of extra-legal regulation of open carry.
May 25, 2010, 4:18 pmChris Travers says:
I guess I was an unusual 16-year-old. (I didn’t drink Guinness, but I was attempting to brew some fairly dark beer. Entirely legally, btw.)
May 25, 2010, 4:28 pmohwilleke says:
A license is required to manufacture firearms. I don’t personally know at what threshold a hobby turns into manufacturing, and I suspect that it rarely comes up in litigation, but at some point, one has a problem.
I also wonder if a rifle modified to be a handgun constitutes an illegal sawed off shotgun.
While this might be legal, it stinks of too clever by half.
May 25, 2010, 4:30 pmKazinski says:
There is no manufacturing involved, all’s you need to do is take the blackpowder cylynder out that ships with the gun, and then drop in the replacement cylinder. Then it shoots standard ammunition. It has nothing to do with modifying a rifle, it is sold as a handgun, it remains a handgun, the only thing that changes is the cylinder.
No license, no permit, no law violation. I guess in a technical sense you are modifying the gun because you are replacing an original part but that’s basically what they did in the 1870′s when most of the existing cap and ball revolvers were converted to take cartridges. But an 18 year old can log on and buy both items, and order the ammo and have it shipped, no questions asked. Well he might have to order the ammunition in a separate shipment.
Here is a picture of an 1858 Remington replica with the drop in replacement cylinder. It of course looks old fashioned, but an 18 year old might still manage to look cool if held it sideways when he was shooting it.
May 25, 2010, 5:02 pmMatthew Carberry says:
Why wonder, just google the BATFE faq. Their regs aren’t always the clearest things but they aren’t rocket science.
May 25, 2010, 5:10 pmVirginian says:
That depends greatly on which urban area. Open carry in downtown Richmond, VA and the police will generally not bat an eye.
There is a very active group of open carriers across the country. Problems do happen, but most police departments quickly adapt and learn that it is legal and does not justify a Terry stop.
May 25, 2010, 5:43 pmRoger the Shrubber says:
Alas, Virginian, eyes have indeed been batted in Richmond. Although I would agree that most cops in Virginia understand the law pretty well.
May 25, 2010, 6:04 pmPeteJ says:
Not entirely true. A license is required for manufacture and sale of firearms. No license is required to manufacture a firearm. There is a good amount of people who make their own AK clones from a parts kit and a piece of sheet metal. The ATF has said this is ok as long as the manufactured firearm is not otherwise prohibited by law (eg. no making machine-guns, unless you hold a FFL with the SOT tax). If you want to sell the firearm (I believe it is 1 per year you are allowed to sell if you make your own) it needs to have a serial number put on it.
A rifle is always a rifle to the ATF. Even if you remove the stock and cut down the barrel they classify it as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR). Unless of course, you own a Thompson/Center firearm which the SCOTUS has said you can do that to firearms. The ATF took that loss and said it only applies to the specific model in the lawsuit, and no other models or makes of firearms. Decision here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=7459670978537001150&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
As for the 1858 Remington, I know that some states laws (Michigan) consider a cap and ball revolver with a conversion cylinder to be a “modern” gun.
May 25, 2010, 6:14 pmChris says:
Oh no, it is alive and well… Every attempt to get the law changed gets the bill stalled in committee. Hell, we cant even get a castle doctrine law through the legislature.
May 25, 2010, 6:23 pmChris says:
I open carry in urban areas all the time without any problems.
May 25, 2010, 6:24 pmMark Horning says:
Me too, but in the Phoenix metro it’s still reasonably common.
May 25, 2010, 6:44 pmMike Stollenwerk says:
Some maps of state legal regimes may be useful:
1. Most states permit private sales of guns: http://www.opencarry.org/privatetransfers.html – those with restrictions may have exceptions for family gifts, e.g., Pennsylvania.
2. Most states allow open carry in public at age 18 without any license: http://www.opencarry.org/privatetransfers.html
Generally possession for handguns is is legal at age 18 or lower under state law, but once a few states ban transfers to 18-20 year olds, like I think Ohio and Nebraska, but its not clear the transforee violates any law by receiving the gun, and an 18-20 year old could always move into such states with her handgun and be fine – lots of wrinkles if you look close, but step back and America’s a big sea of gun freedom!
May 25, 2010, 8:20 pmKharn says:
Manufacturing for profit requires a license, manufacturing for personal use is not regulated as long as you abide by other laws (NFA/GCA/MG ban, import ban, etc). A 18yo with access to a milling machine and a set of blue prints can make a working pistol (1911 and Sig 228 were common builds when I was in the game) from an “80% receiver” and a parts kit in a day or two. Luckily, not many gang members 1. have access to a Bridgeport, 2. know how to read prints and translate those into milling/drilling steps, or 3. consider the process worthwhile vs paying $100 for a stolen gun.
May 25, 2010, 9:30 pmDan Lavatan says:
I think an 18 year old could be director of a corporation with a FFL.
May 25, 2010, 11:09 pmMatthew Carberry says:
I’d like a little intellectual integrity from researchers and have them quit lumping legal adults, 18/19/20 year olds, in with actual minors in crime statistics.
May 25, 2010, 11:21 pmLarryA says:
Not quite. It would be a “short-barreled rifle.” Under federal law a rifle (or firearm made from a rifle) cannot have a barrel less than 16” long, or measure less than 26” overall, or it comes under the national firearms act and requires extensive registration.
The same is true of a shotgun with a barrel less than 18” long, or less than 26” overall.
Well, except that black powder firearms are designed to be used with black powder or a substitute like Pyrodex, not the much more powerful modern smokeless powder used in .45 Colt cartridges. “Standard ammunition” might well catastrophically dismantle the black powder revolver.
A definite “don’t try this at home” proposition.
May 26, 2010, 3:26 amVirginian says:
True, but that was two years ago. A lot of open carrying and a lot of education have happened in the past two years. Not that problems don’t happen, but they seem to be much less frequent.
May 26, 2010, 10:00 amkarrde says:
EV, I am somewhat surprised by your question. In retrospect, my surprise is based on the knowledge that you were well-versed in Constitutional Law, especially as it relates to the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. I had thought you were also well-versed in other parts of National Law with respect to firearms.
My mistake for assuming that, I guess.
The answers as given above (it is easy, if family-members or close friends are already owners and State law allows; it is usually legal if done in-State; it is legal if done as a gift; etc.) are generally considered common-knowledge on discussion-boards run by and for gun-owners. Every once in a while, a new member will ask the question, and a dozen old members will run the refresher-course, or link to old discussions about the subject.
On the other hand, I know a few people who are gun-owners but not members of such groups, and they don’t know these laws…
Discussions such as this are instructive. They are a subset of the general discussion about the size of the United State Code and Code of Federal Regulations, and how easy it is for the less-knowledgeable to accidentally commit a felony crime.
The BATFE has generally made breaking the Federal law about firearms a very risky proposition. However, not all States are as conscientious, and not all Federal Law is equally-enforced.
May 26, 2010, 12:45 pmkatahdin says:
Would a better way of phrasing that be ‘most intrastate transfers …’? AFAICT, federal law doesn’t care about family relationships for e.g. interstate transfers.
May 26, 2010, 2:50 pmIIRC, even the inheritance exception isn’t family specific.
Tim says:
Selling a gun on a bill of sale is no problem, typically, and common.
May 26, 2010, 3:49 pmSmitty says:
Does anyone know how many guns you would have to sell to be considered a dealer by BATF?
June 5, 2010, 11:55 pmMatthew Carberry says:
Smitty,
From the ATF faq, this in particular is from the Curio and Relic section but applies to all non FFL licensees. I think it’s a judgment call on the part of ATF in the end.
Q: What does “engaged in the business” mean?
The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
[27 CFR 478.11]
June 6, 2010, 2:28 amAge to get a FFL - Page 2 - INGunOwners says:
[...] but thanks for clearing it up. For legal scholarship on this and many other subjects, see here: The Volokh Conspiracy How Would an 18-to-20-Year-Old Go About Buying a Handgun? Professor Volokh has opined at length about the disparity of gun rights for 18 to 20 year [...]
July 4, 2010, 2:27 am