Transocean’s ban on employee knife possession nearly killed several BP drilling rig survivors, by preventing them from cutting the rope that attached the life boat to the drilling rig. Details here, from Towmasters. Some additional details here from the 1:30 p.m. report by the New Orleans Times-Picayune: the life boat was supposed to have a knife in it, but it couldn’t be found in the dark during the chaos. Fortunately, a rescue boat drove up the raft and supplied a knife. For men at sea, and for lots of other laborers, a knife is a basic safety tool. The knife ban is one more piece of evidence that Transocean and BP chose not to follow best practices for safety.
Leroy Washington says:
Many people are killed each year by avoidable knife violence. The problem you mention is not sensible knife regulation, it is oil company greed leading this capitalist uber-company to endanger workers by failing to provide basic safety equipment.
June 24, 2010, 2:25 pmmiket says:
Ooh, evil knives hurt people so no knives anywhere that can be easily found. No problem…let’s blame everything on “capitalism” and Bush.
June 24, 2010, 2:29 pmZK says:
A knife supposedly stowed somewhere in a raft is radically different than a knife you clip to the same place on your belt every morning.
June 24, 2010, 2:31 pmBP: Deepwater Rig as Schoolyard | Little Miss Attila says:
[...] had a knife ban at Deepwater Horizon? [...]
June 24, 2010, 2:32 pmAnton says:
People don’t kill people, knives kill people.
June 24, 2010, 2:33 pmBill Cyrus says:
“Knife violence”? What an absurd idea. Is it somehow worse because someone is attacked with a knife than something else? What a ludicrous assertion. I take it by that line of reasoning you think it not so bad if someone is injured or killed with some other form of tool like a wrench, a shovel, or a heavy spatula. The idea that people should be nannied by removing things from their possession at the expense of their personal liberty in hopes of calming their nature is repulsive, insulting, immature, and quite frankly unintelligent.
June 24, 2010, 2:36 pmSteve says:
That’s interesting. I never would have thought about that.
June 24, 2010, 2:38 pmGordo says:
And if Transocean had allowed its employees to carry heat, they could have shot the ropes to smithereeens.
June 24, 2010, 2:40 pmTamerlane says:
Knives don’t kill people, holes kill people.
June 24, 2010, 2:40 pmLTR says:
Someone please post a picture of the cutest little kid ever killed by a knife. Why do you want little kids to die from knife violence, David, why?!
June 24, 2010, 2:41 pmEH says:
The TSA handles oil derricks, too? News to me.
June 24, 2010, 2:41 pmMalvolio says:
I think you missed the sarcasm there. I hope you missed the sarcasm there, because if I’m imagining it, well, things are very, very wrong. Can you imagine the depths of insanity necessary to (seriously) argue that safety equipment should be withheld because it might be used as a weapon?
June 24, 2010, 2:43 pmmiket says:
Possibly equal to the depths of insanity necessary to seriously argue that drawings depicting firearms should cause children to be suspended from school under so-called zero tolerance rules.
But not quite as insane as intentionally interfering with mitigation of the impact of the Deepwater spill.
June 24, 2010, 2:47 pmThor's Screwdriver says:
WOW, that is crazy if it is true. Whenever I venture into the wilds, I always take a Gerber multi-tool with me. I also usually take along my Kimber. I can’t imagine being on an oil rig or some other heavy construction project without such a useful tool.
In the pre-Columbine days of my youth, just about every kid in school had some sort of pocket knife. Most even carried them on their belt.
June 24, 2010, 2:47 pmwlpeak says:
I wonder if this has more to do with the national origins of the company and that nations current obsession with knives.
June 24, 2010, 2:54 pmHouston Lawyer says:
We used to play mumbly peg in junior high with our pocket knives. In high school, people often had hunting guns in their vehicles in the school parking lot.
The men should have carried light sabers, because those are not yet banned.
June 24, 2010, 2:55 pmChrisIowa says:
One thing that I should have realized before but did not until this incident is that a deep water drilling rig is indeed a ship. I don’t know how or if that involves the TSA, but maybe not as far fetched as would off hand appear.
June 24, 2010, 3:00 pmJaimeInTexas says:
Oh, wow. Tow of the most important tools when in a sea craft of any kind: ropes and knives.
I wonder … if an employee had an un-authorized knife that had enabled the rig survivors to cut the rope … what would happen to that employee?
June 24, 2010, 3:10 pmwlpeak says:
If the rationale in banning knives was to remove a potential weapon, then the banners have no clue to what tools the bannies have access on a daily basis.
The incompetence of BP seems to be a meme with legs.
June 24, 2010, 3:10 pmht4 says:
While I generally agree that knife bans are silly (to be charitable), I think it is equally silly to pretend that DK is an expert in “best practices for safety” on an oil rig.
June 24, 2010, 3:23 pmtim says:
i keep all my knives locked up so they don’t go off and stab anybody on their own
June 24, 2010, 3:25 pmDilan Esper says:
Libertarian position:
Oil rig operators ought to be able to refuse to hire black people, but under no circumstances should they be able to ban weapons possession on the job.
June 24, 2010, 3:26 pmwlpeak says:
Libertarian Parody FAIL.
Unlike Dilan, I cannot claim to speak for all or even large clumps of libertarians, just for my own flawed grasp of what I call libertarianism. But as far as that goes, I’d say libertarians would never say that BP, or Transocean, or anyone cannot ban knives. They (we) would just reserve the right to ridicule them for the boneheaded decision.
June 24, 2010, 3:36 pmMatthew Carberry says:
I think the “libertarian position” would be that oil rig operators or any other employer should be able to have whatever rules they want for the workplace, but shouldn’t expect to not be called idiots for any of their patently stupid choices.
Like using “safety” as a justification for banning pocket knives from a rig full of large blunt steel objects where even shoving someone over the side while unarmed will likely kill them.
After all, if you have a problem with an employer banning (insert behavior or object) at work, don’t work for them.
ps: Transocean’s management is patently stupid on this issue
June 24, 2010, 3:40 pmSarah Brady says:
I demand a waiting period to buy knives. I also demand that knives not be allowed in bars or anyplace that serves alcohol. No steak knives. No butter knives. No playing “Mack the Knife” on the piped-in music, either.
Won’t someone think of the children?
June 24, 2010, 3:46 pmKatahdin says:
It’s not just an oil rig thing. One of the longest 3 minutes of my life was laying in an inverted, crumpled car, with leaking gas, keeping a lady company while my wife ran back to our car for my pocketknife (it was a hot day, and I was wearing gym shorts with no pockets). Her seat belt buckle was jammed, we had to cut the belt.
I hope they kept all the kitchen knives in the galley locked in a safe. What if some crazed crew member got one of those chef’s knives? I mean, have you seen those? They put a lousy buck knife to shame.
June 24, 2010, 3:51 pmAvery Burns says:
A gun is only a weapon. A knife is a tool.
June 24, 2010, 3:51 pmPeople need to get off their paranoia and grow up out of their fears.
The world is full of danger. Then you die.
tom says:
Having worked as a safety manager for many years I can say with some certainty that there is in fact a fair amount of “knife violence” on construction sites. I would assume the same would be true on an oil rig.
I am constantly reminded of the bit from the Crocodile Dundee movie where Paul Hogan pulls out the 10″ blade and says “…Now this is a knife”. There is a certainly sort of person who wants to carry around the scary-sharp commando knife on a leather belt hook. We carry about two of these idiots to the doctor a year when they cut their hand open trying to cut tape or twine with their pig-sticker.
I have no doubt the policy was intended to prevent these sorts of knives and not the basic pocket knife or Gerber-multitool knives that have some real day to day use.
It also seems that what is in reality a very sensible policy is being used as yet more evidence how terrible BP is.
Right now, I think if someone pointed out that a BP newsletter last month suggested employees write a letter to their mother on the second sunday in May, one of you people would be pissing-and-moaning about free speech and how BP is trying to force their way into employees personal lives.
June 24, 2010, 3:52 pmDjDiverDan says:
I really love the posts that bring out the Real YoYos.
Gee, if banning the possession of knives will put an end to knife violence, then I suppose that banning all motor vehicles will put an end to traffic fatalities (and just imagine what we’ll save on taxes if governments were no longer required to build or repair roads!). And while we are at it, let’s ban the possession of baseballs (all those fans getting injured by foul balls is just a tragedy!), and ladders (do you have ANY IDEA how many people fall off those things?), and hammers (they can fracture a skull in an instant!), and screwdrivers (really just knives in disguise!), and … pretty much every convenience of modern civilization, including fire. So we will all live shorter, unhappier lives, but at least no one will be killed by knives, cars, ladders, screwdrivers, hammers, etc. And after all, isn’t that the really important thing?
June 24, 2010, 4:04 pmA. Zarkov says:
You should have doubt absent specific evidence. The anti-weapons mentality that’s so prevalent throughout government and corporate bureaucracies today is certainly capable banning even pocket knives. Look at what goes on in some of our public schools. One student was told he couldn’t have toy soldiers on baseball cap.
June 24, 2010, 4:05 pmSteve P. says:
Thanks for providing some possible context, tom.
June 24, 2010, 4:05 pmBama 1L says:
This type of workplace rule probably reflects the employer’s experience. The men who work on oil rigs get into fights. Knives make those fights more serious.
Maritime law affects this somewhat by considering an armed, violence-prone crewmate a dangerous condition within the control of the owner that results in the owner’s liability. But you have to figure that the owner is, in practical terms, liable anyway. If someone on your rig gets stabbed, you are going to put him back together, you are going to medevac him to shore, and you are going to have to replace him.
June 24, 2010, 4:08 pmChris Travers says:
Maybe it’s because it’s British Petroleum….
June 24, 2010, 4:27 pmSeaDrive says:
Another part of that experience may be that there is little use for small knife in pursuit of many people’s duties. For those who need one, e.g. the cook, knifes are provided. Generally speaking, a knife with a three inch blade is not going to get the job done on a heavy hawser or steel cable.
Still, a sailor should have a knife. Life is complex. I can’t get into half the things I buy without a knife or (sharp-pointed) scissors.
June 24, 2010, 4:30 pmChris Travers says:
Do you want YOUR children listening to folk singers’ singing Sheath and Knife?
June 24, 2010, 4:32 pmDG says:
I can’t imagine working in any sea-going job without a leatherman or equivalent multitool, with a knife. And for those who are worried about knife-fights – no one gets into a knife-fight with a leatherman.
June 24, 2010, 4:42 pmChris Travers says:
We’d have to hunt all wild animals to extinction and cut down all trees first.
June 24, 2010, 5:14 pmShelbyC says:
This is a natural mistake for people who think you should ban everything you disagree with.
June 24, 2010, 5:22 pmSammy Finkelman says:
This was probably not a problem on the Titanic.
If people can’t regularly have knives, and previously there used to be a lot around, then the lifeboats need to be detachable without any special equipment (or training)
But changes were made and people didn’t think them through.
June 24, 2010, 5:27 pmroger thistle says:
Seems like Tom and Dilan are idiots.
June 24, 2010, 5:32 pmElliot says:
I’d suggest we have come to a point where companiess are so afraid of litigation they shy away from giving supervisors authority to make common sense decisions. So, they try to make rules that cover everything, make sure they are in policy books, and pass it all by a lawyer specializing in employment laws.
If someone comes on a job with a Bowie knife, you tell him to ditch it unless he’s going to wear a coonskin cap with it. If he has a switch blade, ditch it. If he has a leatherman, keep it. If he has a folder, keep it. This stuff isn’t hard. If it’s a reasonable tool, keep it. If it’s more like a weapon, ditch it. Who makes the decision? The the foreman or site manager.
June 24, 2010, 5:49 pmgab says:
Thanks roger, you’ve added much to the discussion.
June 24, 2010, 5:51 pmKatahdin says:
In a way that, e.g., a 3/16 wide blade by 9 inch long screwdriver doesn’t? I’m open to the argument that they do – maybe people haven’t thought about what happens when you use such a screwdriver like an icepick, and they use fists instead. But from an objective hazard basis, I’m not sure a long skinny screwdriver is any less dangerous than a 3 inch blade knife. Or a hammer or pipe wrench or crowbar or …
June 24, 2010, 5:54 pmM-K says:
http://www.kniferights.org
June 24, 2010, 5:59 pmbyomtov says:
If people can’t regularly have knives, and previously there used to be a lot around, then the lifeboats need to be detachable without any special equipment (or training)
What’s this? Common sense, maybe?
June 24, 2010, 6:03 pmohwilleke says:
So, maybe a private sector employer rule to ban knives doesn’t make sense on an oil rig (clearly it would make sense, e.g. in an MRI facility where a massive magnet might send a knife flying across the room at someone). There is no indication that this was an OSHA safety rule requirement or some such, and the employer has strict liability for on the job harm to employees from any source (including horsing around or assaults from fellow employees). Perhaps the rule even had history (maybe roustabouts used to have knife fights).
This still has nothing to do with the far more controversial issue of whether a private sector employer ban on guns by employees in an employer controlled environment is appropriate. The hard questions are bans on bank tellers and late night gas station clerks having guns on the job, not knives for roustabouts.
June 24, 2010, 6:04 pmMikee says:
Helicopter transport to oil rigs = TSA involvement.
TSA involvement = security theater, wherein pocket knives are banned for men who are going to work on an oil rig, using tools more deadly, even when used correctly, than any knife.
June 24, 2010, 6:08 pmSeamus says:
I have been denied entry into government office buildings in DC because I was carrying a pocket knife. I guess the powers that be were afraid I might use it to hijack the building and crash it into the Capitol.
June 24, 2010, 6:10 pmElliot says:
Well, sometimes things go all to hell when the rig is exploding and junk is flying all over. And sometimes those triple redundant systems don’t work like the manual says and you have to do the best you can with what you have.
June 24, 2010, 6:13 pmDilan Esper says:
Unlike Dilan, I cannot claim to speak for all or even large clumps of libertarians, just for my own flawed grasp of what I call libertarianism. But as far as that goes, I’d say libertarians would never say that BP, or Transocean, or anyone cannot ban knives. They (we) would just reserve the right to ridicule them for the boneheaded decision.
I am quite aware that this is the distinction that they might draw.
I might add, however, that a lot of the libertarians who frequent the comments threads on this site aren’t very good at the condemnation part when it involves discrimination against unpopular minorities. If you, for instance, call out homophobia, a lot of these so-called libertarians will start defending it, saying either that “homosexual behavior” is harmful or that people really aren’t homophobes if they believe that gays are immoral. Similarly, often blacks claiming discrimination get a rough ride from libertarians. And heaven forbid a Muslim makes any sort of an argument– then we get snickering about the “religion of peace”.
In other words, I’d buy your argument a bit more if libertarians actually condemned prejudice and bigotry against minorities and women the way they condemn businesses that imposes a restriction on weapons.
June 24, 2010, 6:13 pmcustard says:
Switzerland has an obsession with knives?
June 24, 2010, 6:24 pmcustard says:
They haven’t been British Petroleum since 2001. They renamed themselves to BP plc.
June 24, 2010, 6:32 pmOf course the other minor thing is that the article is talking about Transocean, which AFAIK is a Swiss company.
leo marvin says:
… assuming those men aren’t already packing spatulas.
June 24, 2010, 6:39 pmDr. K says:
In my experience, knives are typically banned because of the injuries workers inflict on themselves. This goes to the extreme of only allowing automatically retracting box-cutters.
As Tom said, it’s the idiots that use the wrong tool for the job – a pigsticker for opening a box or cutting twine. In fact, it so stupid that when I worked for Mobil (before the merger), we had to have a device available for people in the control room for slicing bagels.
People are klutzes, and we tend to make idiot-proof rules.
Except that there’s always a bigger idiot.
June 24, 2010, 6:42 pmTitus says:
And what drives a stupid rule like a knife ban? Fears of liability and regulators. The role of government idiocy in the oil spill increases!
June 24, 2010, 6:51 pmzuch says:
We have numerous types of knives on board including utility knives and a “leatherman”-type, and in our Velcroed “safety pocket” near the door with the other emergency stuff, just the type of mariner’s knife as Towmasters recommends. And we also have gargantuan cable cutters too, in case the rig needs to be freed from the boat in a dismasting. Essential equipment.
Banning such for those that have to be on the water does seem rather stupid. But then again, I don’t think the executives/managers think too much about the rigs being things that need to be abandoned, and the people on board subject to salt water rigours. I suspect such images give them bad dreams so they prefer to ignore them….
Cheers,
June 24, 2010, 6:52 pmAnthony says:
In any case, if the best example you can give is “lack of knives didn’t kill anyone, but did inconvenience them”, it’s not much of an argument.
June 24, 2010, 6:53 pmKirk Lazarus says:
Sometimes someone has to say the obvious.
June 24, 2010, 6:58 pmzuch says:
They could insist that the knives don’t have sharp points. Sharp points can be really bad in emergency situations: You can stab yourself on a pitching boat, and you can puncture liferafts or PFDs.
Cheers,
June 24, 2010, 7:03 pmzuch says:
They are generally. But a knot under tension can be a b*tch to undo, and sometimes lines get tangled … and you don’t have time to sort things out.
Cheers,
June 24, 2010, 7:11 pmzuch says:
Or you could use a ceramic or titanium knife. ;-)
When I was working for a MRI manufacturer, a guy showed what happened when he held up one of those ID tags with the little metal clip at 30 paces. <*ZINGGGG!!!*> And those that left screwdrivers or such anywhere near the equipment got a big demerit.
Cheers,
June 24, 2010, 7:15 pmzuch says:
Those things are life-savers. They ought to be mandatory. If you don’t believe me, check out any emergency room on a Sunday morning…..
Cheers,
June 24, 2010, 7:18 pmcalandman says:
The TSA authority over rig transportation seems more likely once you think about it. The oil workers probably get back and forth to the rigs by boat or helicopter service companies and not by oil company owned transportation limited to their own employees. And since these service companies provide transportation to many different clients either they are common carriers or the TSA treats them as such. You would think there would be commonsense exceptions but really not much commonsense associated with the TSA.
June 24, 2010, 7:28 pmPraetorius says:
So, depsite mandated training on safety equipment, they couldn’t find a safety knife that was located (by regulation) near the door?
Sounds like the training was defective.
As was the decision to ban knives. I guess the workers eat their meals through a straw, and the supplies delivered to the rig aren’t wrapped securely, too.
June 24, 2010, 7:30 pmJohn Cunningham says:
the nanny state at work. Knife prohibition is far advanced in the UK, and our lefties are panting to follow suit. leaving victims defenseless is a feature, not a bug.
June 24, 2010, 8:23 pmJaimeInTexas says:
TSA????? And, how helicopter transport handles electricians and their tools?
June 24, 2010, 8:56 pmJaimeInTexas says:
I feel naked if I do not have my pocket knife with me when I go out my home.
June 24, 2010, 8:56 pmwlpeak says:
Perhaps you have a finer sense of sarcasm than myself. BP isn’t Swiss nor is Transocean. So…WTF?
June 24, 2010, 9:06 pmwlpeak says:
Odd, I coulda sworn they were from Louisiana.
What would the Swiis know about the oil bidness?
June 24, 2010, 9:08 pmwlpeak says:
You’d buy my argument a bit more if…?!? What argument exactly are you addressing here? That I don’t speak for libertarians just myself, or that I believe libertarians wouldn’t tell Transocean, BP, or anyone else, not to ban knives? I really not clear on your point.
I really, really don’t speak for the others but if you have evidence to refute that, sweet! That’d make me a spokesman! And I really, really believe libertarians wouldn’t tell others how to run their business vis a vis knives any differently than employees.
Now if you have a long list of people being inconsistent on the latter issue that’s between them and you. If you just think I’m wrong about it then don’t be coy say so.
I’m not buying your argument about my argument. Whichever one it was you couldn’t buy.
June 24, 2010, 9:28 pmKharn says:
Roughnecks without knives? I wonder how in the world they enforced that policy, TSA checkpoint before getting on the helo or boat?
June 24, 2010, 9:55 pmAJK says:
His point is that libertarians hate gays, blacks, and Muslims because they don’t want to ban discrimination against them. This is somehow proven by libertarians not wanting to forbid companies from banning knives on their property.
June 24, 2010, 10:14 pmwlpeak says:
If you say so. It wouldn’t exactly surprise me.
But libertarians don’t wanna ban discrimination against straight, white, christians either. So I guess we hate them too, huh. And I was sayin we don’t wanna ban discrimination against knives in the workplace, so we hate knives too, right?
Nah, nobody could be using logic that screwed up.
June 24, 2010, 10:38 pmcustard says:
According to that source of all truth, Wikipedia, Transocean is a Swiss company headquartered in Geneva with operations all around the world, including the Gulf of Mexico.
June 24, 2010, 10:53 pmcustard says:
Certainly more than me, and as much as the US and the UK apparently.
June 24, 2010, 10:54 pmLowell says:
When I worked offshore in the early to mid ’70s as a roustabout, it wasn’t a question if you had a knife. The question was if your knife was a Buck or a Case.
June 24, 2010, 10:56 pmRB says:
As late as the early 1960s, my high school–like most in New York City!!–had a rifle team. By the mid-1970s, when I was in HS, gun-control fervor had won the day in NYC (even as murder rates continued to skyrocket). When I started working in HS theater, the boys’ dressing room located under the auditorium was actually the old rifle range.
June 24, 2010, 10:56 pmArthur Kirkland says:
Does anyone wish to make an argument that support of a ban on same-sex marriage, support of discrimination against gays with respect to military service, or support of a return of laws against gay sex could be libertarian positions?
June 24, 2010, 11:16 pmGringo says:
While this thread is about a Transocean safety regulation, this particular regulation about individual safety behavior is somewhat parallel with how BP approached safety issues. Andrew Wilson’s recent article in the Weekly Standard, Beyond Pathetic: BP’s Gulf disaster was no surprise to those who understood the corporate culture, discusses how BP dealt with safety issues. BP stressed dealing with small scale higher probability accidents while paying less attention to lower probability, large scale accidents. While there are supporting statements from a young engineer who resigned from BP in 2004, and an engineering professor who consulted for BP in 2003, the money quote comes from John Brown, who retired in 2007 from his position as BP’s CEO. Browne is talking about the Baker Panel’s report, which investigated a 2005 explosion at a BP refinery in Texas City.
This is what is known as penny wise and pound foolish.
BP’s taking its eye off the fundamental safety issues- the big accident- might be compared to BP’s paying less attention to its core business of petroleum, while billing itself as “beyond petroleum” and pushing cap and trade.
June 24, 2010, 11:21 pmgs says:
Instapundit recently linked to Volokh contributor David Bernstein’s piece about the “libertarian approach to antidiscrimination law”.
(My apologies to David Kopel if he feels his thread has been hijacked.)
June 24, 2010, 11:25 pmM. Gross says:
Although Transocean is headquartered in Switzerland and is legally a Swiss company, they were originally an American firm and continue to have a great deal of personnel and activity here.
They went to Switzerland several years ago in a continuing effort to mitigate US taxes.
June 24, 2010, 11:32 pmJerry R says:
Just register all knives. Then only criminals will have unregistered knives. Problem solved.
June 24, 2010, 11:36 pmAST says:
These people are trusted to run heavy drilling machinery, but not a knife? Do they allow them to learn knots?
June 24, 2010, 11:37 pmcustard says:
I stand corrected. Clearly i need to do more than a cursory read of articles!
June 24, 2010, 11:41 pmcustard says:
Good grief no! Then they’d be able to make nooses and next thing you know rigs would be awash with lynchings.
June 24, 2010, 11:43 pmNemo from Erewhon says:
I worked on an oil rig 30 years ago, and maybe things have changed, but back then you wouldn’t have had to reach far to lay hands on a lethal weapon; or make much of an effort to maim or kill someone with nothing more than a subtle shove at the right time. The “danger” posed by knives would have been lost in the statistical noise.
June 24, 2010, 11:48 pmLet’s face it, knives are being treated this way because some people are mindlessly scared of a certain kind of tool.
(I might also add that fighting among roughnecks on the rig was extremely rare, largely because the toolpush would chuck your ass out the door so fast the mud on your boots would be left behind.)
Harold says:
Yes, it is. The one you clip in the same place on your belt each morning is easily accessed for either normal use or emergencies. It doesn’t have to be searched for.
The only, repeat, only difference between a tool and a weapon is how you use it.
June 25, 2010, 12:00 amCitizen K says:
Piss poor safety man who has no knowledge of industrial type work. Surely you have never been involved with chemical plants and refineries or else you would have not lasted long. Knives are kept by everyone in those places of work.
This likely has something to do with a really dumb safety department, and more likely due some USCG recommendation. Just like the cookie cutter (which they prefer) emergency response plan with inane stuff required by the Federalies.
June 25, 2010, 12:19 amJKB says:
On the upside, the no-knife policy will probably be an element in a maritime personal injury suit. It could very well turn out the policy created an unseaworthy condition. It certainly appears that the current liferaft training without hands-on use of the emergency knife wasn’t adequate. It certainly wouldn’t be a stretch to show that the minimal training wasn’t enough to overcome the fear response of a reasonable mariner during a rig explosion and contributed to the injury of the mariners. That this was foreseeable by the owners.
It may be the policy should be altered to allow knives without points or something like the seatbelt cutter developed to handle lines of the size used on emergency equipment and provided to everyone when they board.
June 25, 2010, 12:22 amsfalphageek says:
I’ve done a fair amount of professional study on how to stay alive in unhappy circumstances, and one of the best pieces of advice I’ve come across is:
“Never leave your house without a way to make light, a way to make fire, and a knife.”
June 25, 2010, 12:34 amBobnormal says:
Thanks for reminding me to sharpen my pocket knife, the only tool I won’t leave home without
June 25, 2010, 12:38 amChris Travers says:
Not a good idea. Then they might hang themselves.
June 25, 2010, 1:54 amRandy says:
Good lord. I didn’t know knife fights at construction sites were so common. What goes on there that engenders such violence. The worst that happens in the theater is someone throws out a cutting comment, not an actual cutting.
June 25, 2010, 1:56 amxon says:
Seamus, I love you.
June 25, 2010, 2:03 amJohn D says:
Nice satire, Leroy. But satire is done by exaggerating things to the breaking point to make the subject look ridiculous.
That is nearly impossible with the liberals and Democrats because their actual ideas are so ridiculous that they’re almost impossible to exaggerate.
June 25, 2010, 2:10 amlargo says:
Lockpicks and portscanners have legitimate purpose, but I can imagine a piece of software used as in instrument of bringing down a network in an undetectable way. Bringing down the network may be legetimate (depending who brings it down, and when, and why) and their may be standard software instruments–tools–for doing so, all of which leave an audit trail.
My piece of software in instrumental in another way. It leaves no trail. There may be no legitimate reason for anyone to leave no trail. It may be that the only purposes this extra instrumentatlity could serves would be illegetimate purposes.
Does my software, therefore, cease to become a tool? Are instruments of war and instruments of crime not instruments? Or does the instrumental function cease to be “instrumental” when their function is limited to illegitimate purposes? Or are we no longer supposed to call this function “instrumental” when no legitimate purpose is left — even if the function does not really cease to be instrumenta… — ehr — cease to belong to the same class of functionality that it used to?
Or are there really so no such things as “tools of crime”?
Avery, I don’t think you meant to imply this by the line I quoted from you. I think you wrote it to encourage us to adopt a certain attitude, and that may be a laudable goal. But the line you use invites us to think about reality in that way. It invites mind-rot™.
June 25, 2010, 4:58 amsilverpie says:
There are two states that have riflery sanctioned as a high school sport–Hawai’i and Georgia.
June 25, 2010, 8:09 amBasil says:
Does anyone else here see that the real problem is lawyers? As much as I think the policy against knives in the workplace is a sad commentary on how far society has gone to create not just the nanny state, but the nanny life, the policy was probably dictated, prudently, by Transocean’s lawyers to limit liability should a worker go berserk and use a personal knife to injure or kill another worker. I.e., the company lawyers feared getting sued by plaintiff lawyers.
My animus here is not against lawyers per se. I have a son who is a lawyer, and I’ve worked with them (as an expert witness) all my professional life. But this ban is just a reflection of tort law run amok. So don’t blame Transocean. Blame the legal system that makes employers take these steps that limit employee freedom and put employees in situations where they cannot take reasonable measures to assure their own safety.
June 25, 2010, 8:32 ambore says:
Weapons are tools.
June 25, 2010, 8:35 amBlue Neponset says:
My experience backs this up as well. One of my not so well adjusted co-workers at a hardware store carried a butterfly knife and one day he used it to open a box for a customer. While trying to close the knife and hold the box at the same time he managed to plunge the knife into his leg. Lots and lots of blood. After that we were all restricted to box-cutters.
One other thing that people seem to be missing/ignoring is that BP/Transocean/etc. didn’t come up with these rules arbitrarily. They attempted to balance one safety concern with another. They aren’t knife grabbers they just tried to come to the best conclusion they could. It seems like they need to reassess their procedures, but the idea that this issue is a black or white is disingenuous.
June 25, 2010, 8:54 amBill Cyrus says:
The people in the UK have that precise level of insanity and have acted upon it. They have spouted that very specific thing, a knife ban because “knife violence” and they’ve watched their crime rate go through the roof.
June 25, 2010, 9:09 amJack Bunce says:
I think you will find that switchblades were invented as a solution to a seagoing type of problem: how to quickly and easily open a folding knife with one hand because if you had to use both hands you would die since you would be forced to let go of whatever you were holding onto. I’m a little fuzzy on this — it might have also been an aircrew problem that drove its invention.
June 25, 2010, 9:19 amAustin says:
. . . “knife violence”? Are you people smoking crack?
Knives are tools offshore, however statistically speaking they are extremely dangerous. Knives are NOT common-place for operations on ANY MAJOR OIL OPERATION except those with LAX safety practices. It is a common worker complaint, as knives are frequently the EASIEST tool to be used for most jobs, but by first-hand observational experience (offshore as a safety supervisor for many years) 70%+ of all operations using a knife are UNSAFE. On jobs that do not ban knives, reportable incidents are roughly 50% more common (which is also reflective of the lax safety mentioned above) and I have no doubt that many incidents involving knives are simply stitched up by the medic and ignored (so that they don’t get their knives taken away.)
In place of knives, there are commonly “alternative cutting devices” which employees are allowed to have and carry on them (i.e. trauma shears). Other stations use hot rope cutters or other alternatives depending on what work needs to be done. Yes, knives can do many different jobs easily, but they are NOT the best choice for almost any job and usually the MOST dangerous.
For reference, both BP and Transocean have a -good- safety reputation RELATIVELY in both GoM and worldwide operations. EVERY COMPANY in oil production has an unofficial “safety above all else, except profits” and neither BP nor Transocean are an exception, however they cut corners less then a number of other operations. I’m continually amazed by people who have no idea what oilfield operations are like spewing sh*t and commenting about screw-ups.
June 25, 2010, 9:25 amDG says:
{For reference, both BP and Transocean have a –good– safety reputation RELATIVELY in both GoM and worldwide operations. EVERY COMPANY in oil production has an unofficial “safety above all else, except profits” and neither BP nor Transocean are an exception, however they cut corners less then a number of other operations. I’m continually amazed by people who have no idea what oilfield operations are like spewing sh*t and commenting about screw-ups.}
That was a very reasonable stand to take before this latest incident. Well, except when you look at BP’s other multiple fatality accidents. I’ve done a lot of work for energy companies and I’m not the type to just throw stones, but BP and Transocean killed a bunch of people here through some bad engineering decisions. They wouldn’t be the first industry to need some outside engineering and process insight to make some real changes. Look what happened to the nuclear world with INPO – it radically improved safety and increased efficiency.
June 25, 2010, 9:32 ammikeyes says:
Apparently Alaska has HS rifle teams too.
June 25, 2010, 9:54 amclue by four says:
Rope should be banned as well, it can hang people.
June 25, 2010, 10:13 amPhil Smith says:
Well put. Fact is, all we’ve seen in this thread is a great deal of speculation about how many fights there are, but no actual, you know, evidence.
June 25, 2010, 10:44 amSeaDrive says:
I own a folding knife that was sold as a sailor’s knife for yachtsmen. It has a very sharp serrated blade. Due to a very strong spring, it’s hard to open or close. Due to the thin flat shape and smooth stainless construction, it’s hard to grip. I find it very dangerous.
Knives are not all equally dangerous. Banning the bad ones makes sense, but I guess that requires judgment on someone’s part, and one of the trends in modern society is to banish judgment.
June 25, 2010, 10:55 amPhil Smith says:
Unmitigated bullshit. “OSHA issues record breaking fines to BP – News Release, October 30, 2009
June 25, 2010, 11:01 amThe U.S. Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) today announced it is issuing $87,430,000 in proposed penalties to BP Products North America Inc. for the company’s failure to correct potential hazards faced by employees. The fine is the largest in OSHA’s history. The prior largest total penalty, $21 million, was issued in 2005, also against BP.” http://www.osha.gov/dep/bp/bp.html
Jeremy Weiss says:
As a law student, Coast Guard officer, and former deck watch officer, it blows my mind that knives would be banned on a sea-going vessel. A tool knife is one of the most basic safety items a mariner has, and it’s usefulness and practicality as a safety device has been tested over thousands of years. In a profession where stepping in the bite of a line can be fatal, it’s indefensible to prevent employees from carrying a tool knife.
June 25, 2010, 11:07 amrarango says:
When knives are banned only guns will have knives–or only knives will have guns–or something like that–in either case both will have to be pried from my cold hands–or something like that.
I have owned my foldable buck knife since 1967–it has accompanied me on 7 wilderness canoe trips north of the churchill river–there is not a single tool I would rather have. The leatherman tools are a great invention, but given a choice of the two, I would still choose my buck knife.
June 25, 2010, 11:30 amElliot says:
Agree. They are also pretty handy for cutting parachute lines. That would all come under the common sense approach. Show me it’s a real tool, and I have no problems.
June 25, 2010, 11:36 amElliot says:
I was on a mideast job where a guy was murdered. Stabbed 27 times. But the weapon was a scissors, not a knife. It seemed to work pretty well.
June 25, 2010, 11:46 amBrooks Lyman says:
I always (except in courthouses and the State House (check you knife at the door) carry an electrician’s knife (two 3-inch folding blades, one a screwdriver blade) in my pant’s pocket. handy for everything from doing electrical work to opening letters to….cutting the seat belt when I wrecked my car (put a power pole 18 inches into – fortunately – the empty – also fortunately – passenger seat area) and the seat belt release was jammed. That nylon seat belt material is tough; always keep your knife sharpened!
As for guns, in my rural/suburban neighborhood, I generally don’t carry, but would definitely miss the security of having a gun in the home.
June 25, 2010, 1:00 pmJohn Luttrell says:
Rope can be used to kill people too. Maybe rope should be banned and then there would be no need for knives. This will solve the knife problem.
June 25, 2010, 1:24 pmcustard says:
Perhaps we should solve the root cause? Clearly the common factor here is people, so if people were banned the both the knife and rope problem (and a slew of others) would be solved.
June 25, 2010, 1:33 pmGeorge William Herbert says:
I don’t know oil rigs in particular, but I’ve had to do various boat-rescue types of things, and I know a lot of scuba divers. With people’s safety and further damage to boats at risk, I’ve had to cut lines you couldn’t have gotten one of the safety cutters around. I used a hunting type knife, that I was carrying for that specific purpose.
Divers aren’t supposed to go down without a knife, and serious sailors shouldn’t. Oil rigs aren’t a small boat, but they’re either a floating or freestanding structure at sea, and both have boat-like accidents from time to time and sometimes sink or have to be abandoned. People don’t need large knives to safely handle those emergencies – mine was 2x as long as needed, but was what I had. But they arguably need a knife.
Arguing that accident rates statistically go down is missing the point. You can make a work environment perfectly sterile for day to day operations and lethal in an emergency situation. 99 years out of 100 you win that bet. That last year you kill a bunch of people by playing nanny state.
June 25, 2010, 2:09 pmBCKane says:
I haven’t ever worked on a rig, but i was a professional mariner for quite a number of years (unlimited tonnage license and experience). I honestly can’t imagine anyone on a ship, barge, floating/fixed platform that wouldn’t have both a flashlight and a personal knife (3″ or less). I have been on vessels and floating platforms that discouraged (company SOP was no knife use) use of knives and provided “alternate” options that worked for 1-2 specific circumstances and were useless (other than hammering) on the other 99% of required jobs. Working at sea is inherently a dangerous profession, but i have yet to see knives be a significant source of injury (that is normally covered by improper safety equipment, slip and fall, improper use of power/pneumatic equipment, attempting to stop a swinging item, etc). Do you have a link to the statistics that you sighted? As the safety officer for many of the vessels i sailed on i was never made aware (in either everyday training, extensive safety training through the Union/USCG/Company/Military), that improper use of knives were a major cause of injury. I’d be interested in seeing your info if possible. Thanks!
Personally i wouldn’t ever be caught at sea, in any capacity (independent of company policy), without a knife/multi-tool (and flashlight) specifically for emergency situations like this. I am not willing to bet my life on the fact that the people who packed a raft actually loaded a knife, that it has been reserviced properly, that the knife will actually function, that it will be secured to the raft after it inflates, that it will be easily accessible, or that we will have the time to fuss around with the provided knife (those things are notorious for not being able to cut painters easily). Like i said above, i have never worked a rig, but i have years of experience at sea (blue water) and still can’t imagine not having a knife on me.
June 25, 2010, 2:52 pmKatahdin says:
I was curious what the US Navy view of knives might be, and instead stumbled on 46USC11506 which reads:
That indicates that the topic is a little deeper than I would have guessed.
(Also, are there any Navy vets that can say what the USN policy is, if any? IIRC from Army and Marine friends, they were issued a Boy Scout type pocket knife (blade, can opener, etc), and of course a bayonet at times. Not to mention the Swiss Army knife.)
June 25, 2010, 3:31 pmChris Travers says:
I note here that rule is limited to sheath knives. Folding knives would seem to my mind to be different. Most of the knives I’ve seen recommended for sailors are folding knives.
June 25, 2010, 4:13 pmChris Travers says:
I think the issue here is that you might have a reportable incident involving stitches if a knife is in use unsafely. However if you have no knives allowed, then you have the possibility, as in here, that a major incident involving major loss of life becomes a larger possibility.
You don’t seem to be saying that knives are a significant source of injuries, only that folks with fewer incidents per hours don’t let folk use them. You then note, quite rightly, that the overall effect of stricter safety standards generally is the source of the better safety record.
But I don’t think you can get from “strict safety standards are a good idea and correlate with knife prohibitions” (which is, I think, your argument) to “knives should be prohibited.”
June 25, 2010, 4:19 pmKatahdin says:
My impression, from the original link that led me to the posted one, was that the code section was pretty old, when folding knives might not have been common, and in particular tended to be small and require two hands to open. That would give a victim time to flee, grab a handy blunt object, or whatever. For a modern, locking, one hand opening folder, I think the potential for misuse is just as high for a folder as an equal length fixed knife (fixed knives do tend to be longer, though).
I may be wrong; Seattle prohibits fixed knives of any blade length, but only folders longer than 3.5 inches, so maybe there is a reason I’m missing, or maybe fixed blade knives less than 3.5 inches are uncommon enough to not have been considered.
June 25, 2010, 4:48 pmAndrew says:
I am lucky, I work for an employer that bans guns in the work place and parking lot.
I also live in OK, so my gun is in my truck all the time and I have no legal worries at all. And my CCW gives me the right to carry a really nasty knife at all times, concealed of course. And my folding pocket knife is in my pocket all the times.
I also had my colon scoured by the OSBI before I got the CCW.
PC BS is destroying this Country, and real soon we are going to start righting the ship. I hope.
June 25, 2010, 5:03 pmDean Speir says:
The voice of the Socialist-Worker Party is again heard in the land.
I don’t think this is about class warfare, Mr. Washington. I think it’s about common sense and the realization by the “nanny state” that anyone can kill anyone at anytime, and they don’t need an edged instrument or a firearm to do it.
June 25, 2010, 5:34 pmRob Berra says:
Concur. I actually wear a Gerber MultiPlier to my office job (the actual jackknife lives in my bag). Endless uses. Had a boss who wouldn’t let me wear it for a while, and I just felt uncomfortable.
For that matter, I have no idea why they’re not allowed on aircraft. Ever since 9/11, “skyjacker” became the world’s most hazardous profession: it’s not like anyone’s ever going to take over an aircraft with a knife ever again…
June 25, 2010, 5:51 pmStupidity « Random Neural Synapses says:
[...] June 2010 by hamerdinger Eugene Volokh points to an particularly infuriating bit of news Transocean’s ban on employee knife possession nearly killed several BP drilling rig survivors, by [...]
June 25, 2010, 7:04 pmwhit says:
or work for them and surreptitiously carry a knife and hope you don’t get caught.
June 25, 2010, 8:19 pmwhit says:
ban BATHTUBS. there are tens of thousands of deaths and serious injuries involved in falls and drownings in bathtubs. every year
and you can stay plenty of clean with a shower. no bathtub needed.
the last sentence not really applicable to the europeans who so rarely take a shower of course.
June 25, 2010, 8:23 pmDG says:
{Also, are there any Navy vets that can say what the USN policy is, if any?}
When I was in the Navy, I routinely wore a multi-tool. Many folks did. Knives were never a problem. Adjustable wrenches, on the other hand would get you in big trouble. Bonus points if you know why.
I’d like to see someone pry an o-ring or flex coupling out of its groove without a knife.
June 25, 2010, 9:19 pmJaimeInTexas says:
When my 4 children turned 9 yrs old, each got a folding knife made by me. I made my wife a folding knife for one of her “few” birthdays. Two of the knives are made with oak wood handles, stained with coffee; one knife is made with wood from a beaver dam (I think oak); 2 knives with white tail antler for the handles.
I would tell people that had the highjacked planes originated in Jackson, Miss. from Tuscaloosa, Alabama, the highjackers would have gone deaf at the sound of Bucks and Old Timers being opened.
June 25, 2010, 10:50 pmJaimeInTexas says:
“Adjustable wrenches, on the other hand would get you in big trouble. Bonus points if you know why.”
Too dangerous?
June 25, 2010, 10:51 pmmack says:
“Adjustable wrenches, on the other hand would get you in big trouble. Bonus points if you know why.”
Do tell.
The only thing I know about adjustable wrenches is from my father, who held that adjustable wrenches are useless for “real jobs” that require a real wrench as adjustable wrenches are best at rounding or stripping nuts and bolts.
June 26, 2010, 12:01 amlargo says:
Second best. Vice-grips (“nut killers” my grandfather sometimes called them) are better.
(Personal anectode: my grandfather was the first on the shore to own a pair of vice grips. First speedboat. Set up the first lighting plant. He was an interesting guy, may he RIP.
(Having said that, I cannot resist adding, he took me out of Kindergarten one day so that I could watch Sesame Street (this was back in ’69/’70 when it was still good) because I told him (truthfully) that I learned more from the show than from my Kindergarten class. My mother made sure that that did not happen again!)
I don’t know where my prediliction for nested parenthesis came from though. Not him as far as I know.
)
).
– Damn, I hope that compiles. Where’s the syntax highlighting on this thing? :-p
June 26, 2010, 4:40 amlargo says:
I propose an amendment. All showerheads are to be affixed to the wall (no hand-held extensions) at a height not greater than 36″ from the floor of the bath, just over the little seat built into the plastic molded surround unit (we will get to mandating that on the next bill). We don’t want increased risk of falls as a result of our making making them stand up!
June 26, 2010, 4:48 amlargo says:
The children are right to laugh at you Ralph, these things couldn’t cut butter.
June 26, 2010, 5:01 amGerbilsbite says:
I don’t know about construction sites, but oil rigs are completely different animals, as they’re also dormitory environments (whereas most construction sites don’t also provide worker housing). We should think of them more as, say, railroad work camps than as regular construction sites. Add in the pressures of a dangerous job to a confined space, and tensions can (and do) erupt into hostilities. One of the more famous sexual discrimination cases was about a rig worker constantly harassed and assaulted by his coworkers for not seeming butch enough. I can envision plenty of contexts in which having knives on those rigs would be more dangerous than not having them, so a declaration that the knife ban would be inconsistent with “best practices” is nothing if not premature.
(*I carry a pocket knife daily, and as an Eagle Scout wouldn’t be without one willingly except in a few limited contexts–the nature of living in DC, I suppose.)
June 26, 2010, 1:23 pmElliot says:
“I don’t know about construction sites, but oil rigs are completely different animals, as they’re also dormitory environments (whereas most construction sites don’t also provide worker housing). We should think of them more as, say, railroad work camps than as regular construction sites. Add in the pressures of a dangerous job to a confined space, and tensions can (and do) erupt into hostilities.”
I’d probably agree if I hadn’t spent years living in such camps on remote jobs. There is remarkably little violence in these camps.
First, most people work 12 hour days. Depending on the job, there may be two shifts per day so the work never stops. The guys are doing hard work and are tired after 12 hours. They want to shower, eat, and get to bed.
A second factor very important in keeping the peace is good food. At many camps it is very good, and always plentiful. If there are no complaints about food, camp life is much easier.
Third, keep the booze out of camp. The only reason the camps exist is because there is nothing else around. No stores, bars, towns, houses. Alcohol gets smuggled in, but if it is kept down, that eliminates a giant problem.
Fourth, keep the place clean. Quarters may be Spartan, but they can be clean. The cleaning, camp maintenance, and catering crews are just as important as any other.
When the crews rotate out and get back to the real world is the time they raise hell, not on the jobs.
Obvioiusly, all this takes responsible and experienced management. Its far easier to avoid problems than to deal with them.
(Are there exceptions? Of course. It’s usually the result of crappy management.)
June 26, 2010, 8:43 pmricky says:
“In other words, I’d buy your argument a bit more if libertarians actually condemned prejudice and bigotry against minorities and women the way they condemn businesses that imposes a restriction on weapons.”
Has anybody ever almost died on on oil rig because they didn’t have any minorities or women around?
June 26, 2010, 8:51 pmChris W says:
I’m not quite sure how you are defining “sanctioned,” but my district in western NY fields a rifle team. There are quite a few others, too.
http://www.section6.e1b.org/1139101148414020/blank/browse.asp?a=383&BMDRN=2000&BCOB=0&c=53052
June 26, 2010, 10:23 pmB-Rob says:
Interesting point. Diversity advocates would say that, if BP had a more diverse team managing that rig, decisions would have been made in a different manner with different priorities. For instance, a woman or minority entrusted with the rig might not have blown off the fact that the blowout preventer gasket had ruptured. Alsa, the white males in charge did blow it off. So, in a sense, the answer could very well be “Yes, people did die and others were injured and billions of dollars in damages occured because of a lack of minorities and women.”
June 26, 2010, 10:59 pmElliot says:
I remember a particularly silly diversity training session where I proposed the following to the instructor: Five black engineers are designing a pipeline. If I replace one of them with a white engineer, will I get a better design?
June 27, 2010, 12:19 amChris Travers says:
I propose a further requirement, namely that the seat also must have a seat belt, and that this must be worn while showering.
June 27, 2010, 8:41 pmjesse says:
“The knife ban is one more piece of evidence that Transocean and BP chose not to follow best practices for safety.”
The knife ban is one more piece of evidence that Transocean and BP chose not to follow best practices for perceived safety.
There, fixed it for you.
June 28, 2010, 8:22 am