Ronald Reagan once said that the conservative D.C. weekly Human Events was his favorite newspaper. And with good reason. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, there were few significant alternatives to the then-hegemonic MSM. Along with National Review, which was Reagan’s favorite magazine, Human Events was an essential source for stories that the MSM refused to cover, and for perspectives that the MSM shut out or marginalized. Unfortunately, a recent article in Human Events falls very far below the solid journalism standards which helped Human Events earn the respect of Reagan and so many others.
“Obama The Muslim,” by Major Gen. Jerry Curry is an article not worthy of a fifth-rate blog, let alone a serious newspaper. The latter two-thirds of the article consists of criticisms of Obama’s policies on Israel and on Arizona border security. I generally agree with those criticisms, but they provide not a shred of evidence that Obama is a Muslim. Former President Jimmy Carter is extremely hostile to Israel, and he is obviously not a Muslim. U.S. Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.) is extremely hostile to border security, and he is not a Muslim.
So let’s consider the evidence that Curry deploys in the first third of the article:
“President Obama says there is nothing more beautiful than the Muslim call to prayer in the evening.” “Obama’s father and step-father were Muslims and he spent his childhood living in a Muslim country where his school enrollment records say his religion is Islam.”
–All approximately but not precisely true. Four years of his childhood in Indonesia, plus a school record there. The actual prayer call quote is “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset,” not “nothing more beautiful.” This is a starting point for Curry’s case, but in itself, not even close to proof that Obama is currently a Muslim.
“He says that the United States was not founded as a Christian nation.”
–The same position was taken by the United States Senate in 1797 when ratifying the Treaty of Tripoli, and by President John Adams in signing the Treaty. Neither President Adams nor any of the 1797 U.S. Senators were Muslims. Article 11 of the Treaty stated:
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
“As President of the United States he genuflects to the Muslim King of Saudi Arabia but not the Christian Queen of England. He thumbs his nose at America’s friends and bows to its enemies.”
–I agree that Obama is deferential and obsequious to American enemies such a Hugo Chavez and the Iranian tyrants, and that he has been the most anti-British President of the United States in well over a century, and that he is seriously harming American relations with Poland, the Czech Republic, France, and other allies. But none of that is evidence that he’s a Muslim.
As for the Saudi king: Obama did not “genuflect.” To genuflect, in a literal sense, is to bring at least one knee to the ground, as a sign of respect. Obama did not do that. He gave the Saudi king a deep bow from the waist. I thought this was a disgusting gesture for an American President, but it’s not genuflection. (“Genuflect” can also be used in a looser sense, as behaving in a servile manner. In the article, however, Curry is plainly talking about literal physical actions.)
However, Obama bowed even lower to the Emperor and Empress of Japan. That’s not evidence that Obama is a closet Shinto.
As Curry accurately states, Obama gave only the mildest quasi-bow to Queen Elizabeth II. In light of what 1776 was all about, patriotic Americans should not criticize the American President for insufficient bowing to the British monarch. One can infer from Obama’s bowing patterns that he is anti-British, and one can see that in Japan and Saudi Arabia, he went out of his way to make gestures which made himself and our nation look weak and obsequious. The bowing is evidence that he’s a poor President, but not that he’s a closet Muslim.
According to Curry, “My mother believed in ‘common sense’ testing. She said if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck and acts like a duck; it’s a duck....In short, Obama quacks like a Muslim, waddles like a Muslim and acts like a Muslim, so is he a Muslim? My mother would say, ‘Yes! He’s a Muslim through and through.’”
I’ll give Mrs. Curry more credit than that. The looks/talks/waddles test for duck identification involves three characteristics are shared by ducks and by no other animals. Mr. Curry, however, listed only characteristics which are common to some Muslims and many non-Muslims: thinks America is not a Christian nation, dislikes the British, acts obsequious around some non-British royals, is anti-Israel, is weak on border security, tries to ingratiate himself with tyrants. Curry might as well have written, “It has two eyes, lives near water, and eats fish.” Sure, it might be a duck, but it also might be a lots of other things. Such as a law school lecturer who agrees with most of the beliefs of the far-left Christian church he attended for twenty years.
Curry’s final item of alleged proof: “Growing up as a Muslim, Obama must have learned that according to the Qur’an it is acceptable to lie, deceive and live by a double standard provided in so doing one advances Islamic goals. Muslims only pretend to trust and be friends with non-Muslims; in the deepest of their Muslim hearts they have been taught that all non-Muslims are infidels.”
–Generally speaking, “must have” conjectures are not evidence of anything. For the sake of argument, let’s temporarily accept the claim that Islamic teaching sanctions lying in certain cases. Even so, there is no evidence that “Obama must have learned” this particular alleged teaching. His Muslim education did not continue past an early age. It might be plausible to presume that he was taught some elementary tenets of Islam (e.g., there is only one God; God spoke to mankind through a series of prophets, culminating in Muhammed; the Qur’an is scripture.) There is simply no evidence that the “lying to infidels is OK” theory of Islam is universally taught in Muslim education for young children, or, for that matter, to all persons who progress through a full course of Muslim religious instruction. That some Muslims teach the acceptability of lying, and that some Muslim scholars endorse this approach, does not prove that Obama “must have” been taught this particular theory.
It would usually be a sign of bad character for any elected official to proclaim his adherence to one religion while secretly adhering to a very different religion. However, Curry’s strongly-stated conclusion is not even remotely supported by the feeble and poorly-researched evidence which he cobbles together. The article should never have been published by Human Events. Of course even eminent publications such as The Atlantic can have a writer who wallows in malicious speculation based on extremely weak and poorly-considered evidence.
Jerry Curry’s article is not proof that Human Events never produces good articles, nor is Andrew Sullivan’s Trig Trutherism proof that The Atlantic does not publish good articles. However, because reading time is finite, when I choose to read an edited periodical, I try to choose periodicals for which I have confidence that the editors have done a good job in selecting reliable, credible columnists. Accordingly, Human Events’ retention of Curry as a columnist, like The Atlantic’s retention of Sullivan, often make me choose to prioritize reading other periodicals instead.
JR says:
Honestly, there are plenty of very real things about both Barack Obama and Sarah Palin that warrant criticism. I don’t get why people need to make things up (secret Muslim claims/birtherism and Trig trutherism, respectively) about either person, especially considering how paranoid and divorced from reality those claims are.
But I guess when it comes to conspiracy theories, facts and evidence have never mattered much to the people who Want To Believe. JR(Quote)
Crunchy Frog says:
I pay attention to Human Events about as much as I pay attention to the Weekly World News, and they don’t even have photoshopped two-headed babies on the front page.
Next! Crunchy Frog(Quote)
Tamerlane says:
One small quibble: Taqiyya has been an accepted tenet of Islam since the flight of Mohammed from Mecca. The Prophet himself approved it. Tamerlane(Quote)
Anderson says:
However, Obama bowed even lower to the Emperor and Empress of Japan. That’s not evidence that Obama is a closet Shinto.
Whitewash! Anderson(Quote)
newrouter says:
link newrouter(Quote)
Roger says:
Curry does not claim to have proved that Obama is a Moslem. He mere presents evidence that Obama has some Moslem sympathies. Roger(Quote)
JR says:
I wonder what would happen if we ever elected an actual Muslim president. Would his political opponents claim he’s a secret Christian?
And, really, if Obama is at all insincere about his religious views (putting aside how ridiculous it is to think that a politician might use religion to score political points), I’d say it’s far more likely that he’s a secret atheist or agnostic.
But maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part. JR(Quote)
L says:
We’d be hearing that the No Religious Test Clause is not a suicide pact. L(Quote)
A Law Dawg says:
I am 90% sure Obama is not a Muslim and am 89% sure he is an atheist.
To which I say, whatever. A Law Dawg(Quote)
Tony says:
Officially removing volokh.com from RSS feed. Tony(Quote)
ShelbyC says:
ftw ShelbyC(Quote)
ShelbyC says:
Watch out for that door. ShelbyC(Quote)
JR says:
Good one.
But I fear you may be right. JR(Quote)
Crunchy Frog says:
Have a nice life. Crunchy Frog(Quote)
Island says:
Obama said he is muslim. “my muslim faith”
Do you have evidence Obama lied?
And don’t even excuse it as a “misspoke” problem.
How many times have politicians said one thing to get elected and then did another after election.
While some are honest, I am surprised you claim that most politicians have good character (“It would usually be a sign of bad character for any elected official to proclaim his adherence to one religion while secretly adhering to a very different religion.”) I guess you are not talking about the Reverend Wright of hate whitey fame on whose couch Obama sat for 20 years while being steeped in his ideology. And what about the “my muslim faith” comment.
And you don’t know history since you don’t know why Jefferson said we were not ” a Christian nation”. What he meant was you were not forced to belong to a specific religion like Catholic or Protestant to be a politician– like was true in the European countries and American colonies at the time.
You are probably ignorant that Muslims attacked America in 1784 the first year of our Independence and killed Americans. took Americans as slaves, and stole American ships and goods. For 20 years America paid 20 percent of our income as extortion to stop the first attackers– the muslims. When asked why they did it they said the Koran tells them to do it. Island(Quote)
anomdebus says:
DK,
You don’t mention on the last claim that it is troublesome (or useless) because it is essentially unfalsifiable. If you say your aren’t, its because of the lying, if you say you are, you couldn’t possibly be lying. By its standard, I must be a double secret muslim, authorized to lie to myself about really being a muslim. anomdebus(Quote)
DrFunke says:
Is anyone really shocked at stories like this?
The right-wing needs to make Obama look as bad as possible so they run to these laughable stories and think how cool they are for slamming him.
It is ridiculous and makes them look like idiots DrFunke(Quote)
Specast says:
Thanks for the article, but you give Curry way more credit than he deserves. You say it’s true that Obama said “there is nothing more beautiful than the Muslim call to prayer in the evening.” Not so; he is quoted by a columnist, in what context we don’t know, to have said the prayer call is “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”
You say its true he “spent his childhood living in a Muslim country.” He spent four years in Indonesia, far less time than he spent in the U.S (living with his Christian mother and grandparents).
You say its true that his Indonesian school enrollment records describe him as a muslim. It is apparently true as to the enrollment form for the local school he initially attended. But it’s surely not true of the Roman Catholic school he attended for most of his time in Indonesia.
I bring this up not to punish you for an admirable rebuttal to Curry’s trash, but as a caution. Based on your post, someone could justifiably charge you with these views or, worse, cite you as a source for validating them.
[DK: Thanks, I revised the relevant paragraph to be more precise.] Specast(Quote)
JR says:
@Island
How do any of those misdeeds of Muslims who died a couple hundred years ago prove that Barack Obama is a Muslim? JR(Quote)
Brian B says:
General Curry is a sap.
Obviously the President would not for one minute, let alone 20 years, listen to a divisive and bizarre theology nor entertain and support the ramblings of an angry, bigoted religious leader who called upon God to damn America.
No way. Brian B(Quote)
Nate says:
@Brian B:
So your argument is that because he went to a (supposedly) radical Christian church, he must be a Muslim? Got it. Nate(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
Obama does suck, but at least he’s not Muslim, eh? You forget the unity of suckatiousness. Muslims suck, and Obama sucks, so he’s gotta be at least Muslims curious.
To elaborate, Muslims are Nazis are socialists are liberals. Obama, as the ur-liberal, must be Muslim! Sarcastro(Quote)
erp says:
I don’t care if Obama’s a Moslem or Christian or non-believer. My problem with Obama is that he’s a socialist. erp(Quote)
JR says:
But what if he’s really a secret capitalist? JR(Quote)
Bryan says:
... and who cares? Let’s say he’s muslim? So what? That doesn’t mean his interests as president are divergent from ours any more than any presidents are.
“Obama is a Muslim” doesn’t make sense as a critique any more than Obama is a Christian/Protestant/Mormon/Athiest, unless Muslim = evil in your world. Bryan(Quote)
mack says:
Some people have to have deep dark conspiracies — just like some people love mystery thrillers. I’m no fan of Obama — met him briefly when he was a state level senator in Illinois. Even then you could tell he was being groomed for bigger things by the party. He was considered good looking and well spoken and women liked him — and I would assume pollsters and political party bosses knew it — which was why the Chicago machine gave him a safe senate seat. I was surprised he rose so suddenly to the US Senate — (a democrat was going to win, but I was surprised the powers in the party were behind his candidacy from the beginning as opposed to other pols who ran). During his run for the US senate, I remember numerous female family members, friends, and acquaintances telling me how nice looking and well spoken he was — but getting a blank response when I asked them what they liked about his positions — and no most guys didn’t know his positions either but they never mentioned how nice looking and well spoken he was either. But both parties anymore are busy looking to groom new talent — candidates who look good on TV and who can speak. Probably it wasn’t expected even in the party he would win against Hillary (the inevitable candidate — though she showed why Bill was president and she wasn’t) but just make a good first run. Of course the Republicans couldn’t find a good candidate and ran a fossil, and would have lost no matter who they ran McCain against. And now we have a nice looking — generally well spoken — president who is in way over his head and who relies on party hacks from Chicago for guidance. A president who was born a US citizen and who is Christian per his profession and as evidenced by his adult activities in attending a Christian church with his family and children.
I think Obama is not a bad man and I think he wants the best for his country — but then so did Jimmy Carter. If there is a nexus of evil in the Whitehouse I would look to Rahm Emanuel as he would in my opinion do anything in the name of power and revenge, and feel justified in doing so. Bill Clinton was cynical from the get go and he was a manipulative and lying *** but he was also much more competent and capable as president — when he wasn’t distracted by his personal peccadillo’s.
Personally, I sincerely pray for President Obama to have a long, healthy, and happy life that he enjoys with the blessings of his family. I also pray he is a one term president and that our next president will be able to undo some of the damage he has done.
Articles like the one in Human Events do nothing but distract from dealing with the real pressing economic and international issues that confront our nation. He is president, he was elected, so now may we please focus on the issues. mack(Quote)
Anderson says:
Let’s see: 4 out of 18 commenters thus far appear to think that the article is reasonable, and thus, that they are nuts. (Two words, nuts: “David Kopel.”)
That’s about 22.2%, which is 4.8% under the 27% Crazification Factor, but given the small sample, well within the margin of error. Kung-Fu Monkey made easily the most important social-science discovery of the last 10 years. Anderson(Quote)
L says:
Let’s say some liberal groups decided to attack John McCain’s military service, like the liberals did to the Republican candidates John Kerry and Al Gore four and eight years prior. And let’s say all the talk along the Democratic fringe was about how McCain was a crappy bomber pilot. And let’s say Obama took the high road and didn’t bring it up. Can you seriously not imagine, if asked, McCain saying something like, “Obama has not talked about my being a crappy bomber pilot”? And would that be McCain “admitting” to being a crappy bomber pilot? (No, it would not.)
You’re going to have to help me here. If Obama was a thrall to the villainous Rev. Wright, surely he’s a Christian. It’s not Imam Wright. And if he’s persisted in being a secret Muslim to this day, then surely he wasn’t all that influenced by Wright. You’ll have to pick one.
Yes! What about the “my muslim faith” comment?!
So when the treaty said that the US “is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,” what it means is that the US is not a Christian nation in one particular narrow sense?
And what about the “my muslim faith” comment?!!
And that pirate that attacked America . . . and extorted our income . . . grew up to be . . . Barack Hussein Obama. And now you know . . . the rest of the story.
And what about the “my muslim faith” comment?!! L(Quote)
BC says:
I think Obama is a four-flusher on ideological and policy grounds, and honestly could not give a runny shit whether he believes in God, Allah, or the Avon Lady. BC(Quote)
dino says:
if it is disgusting in your opinion to bow to the saudis, then how about holding hands, kissing and frolicking like teenagers like mr. bush. anything disgusting about that? or is mr. bush off limits because he “says he supports israel” while really supporting the destruction of the nation due to his fuckin loopy end times/rapture beliefs.
[DK: In 2004, I criticized “the distressingly close relationship between Saudi Arabia’s ambassador, Prince Bandar, and the Bush family.” http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm#Saudi_Departures_from_United_States. The hand-holding per se doesn’t bother me, and I don’t recall Bush and Prince Bandar kissing and frolicking like teenagers. If they did, it would be inappropriate. But not as inappropriate as a bow. One bows to a superior. Kissing, hand-holding, and frolicking are activities among equals.] dino(Quote)
Abdul says:
But what if he’s really a secret capitalist?
Now that’s really a far-fetched conspiracy theory. Abdul(Quote)
wfjag says:
Means nothing. He was not reading from a Teleprompter when he said that, so it cannot be considered to be a candid statement by him.
Now do you understand? wfjag(Quote)
Anderson says:
... One could construct an equally cogent argument to Curry’s that, since Curry is an opera singer, he must be gay.
(Y’all gotta click through for the picture.) Anderson(Quote)
Smooth, like a Rhapsody says:
Who argues with the notion that the muezzin’s call is very poignant?
I would be surprised if Obama were not at bottom an agnostic.
We will have exited adolescence as a culture when we elect a professed agnostic to be President. Smooth, like a Rhapsody(Quote)
Kamal says:
David, do you ever read The Week? I find it excellent.
As far as “Obama the Muslim”, it’s telling that they would find that a bad thing, even if true. Do people really believe the issue causing terrorism is a specific religion, rather than the belief in god itself? Believing in a single all knowing god is what is dangerous. He knows what is right, and if you disagree, I will kill you. That’s invariably happens, though usually not by the majority of said believers. The crusades, caused by fanatical Christianity, was just as bad, as is what Israel is doing to Palestinians, which is caused by fanatical Jews. It’s wrong to single out Islam from Christianity or Judaism as specifically bad. All are horrible because they pretend they have the answers, and are willing to kill for them.
What’s sad is that those reading this who worship a god that belongs to one of these religions is going to see the atrocities done in the name of their religion as outside the mainstream, but won’t give the same credit to those who pray to a different god.
Anyway, the gods are the problem. Kamal(Quote)
Mao says:
Great piece,
Love to see analysis that cognizant of personal ideology (and perspective) is able to be reasonable and fair... I just wish that they thought similar principles in journalism school. Mao(Quote)
Kamal says:
? I wish we could have someone intellectually honest enough to proclaim they are an Atheist. I can’t believe that Obama is religious; he seems far too smart for that. Kamal(Quote)
mack says:
It is not belief or non-belief in God — it is the self-centered belief that one has the right to use lethal force to impose their will and beliefs on another — the desire for power and control — whether it wears the face of “common sense”, “security”, or “safety”. mack(Quote)
C.T. says:
Yeah, OK, I get all that, but what’s with the non-sequitur about the Atlantic and Andrew Sullivan? Were you just looking for an excuse to bring that up?
Don’t get me wrong; Sullivan is a complete kook over the Trig-Truther stuff. I just don’t understand why the subject was raised here. C.T.(Quote)
alan says:
Given the massive state-run slaughters of millions by self-professed atheists (Soviets, Chicoms) and pagans (Nazis), perhaps the fault lies not in the stars (or gods), but in ourselves?
Religion is not the cause of suffering, humanity is. alan(Quote)
BT says:
As “Tony” gave no reason for departing The Volokh Experience, I guess it is reasonable to assume that he too believes that Obama is in fact a Muslim. There are few people who loath our beloved president more than I do, but stories like these don’t do the camo-wearing-govment-hating-right-wing-wackos-like me any favors. Human Events blew it on this one. BT(Quote)
wolfefan says:
I don’t know if Islamic teaching sanctions lying in certain circumstances, but Catholic teaching seems to sanction “equivocating” from time to time.
[DK: Historically true, at least for Jesuits being persecuted in England by Elizabeth I and James I. http://old.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel110501.shtml ] wolfefan(Quote)
JoeSixpack says:
What’s bad about being a Muslim? JoeSixpack(Quote)
wolfefan says:
Sorry — forgot the link for the above...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm wolfefan(Quote)
bore says:
This is what I got before I stopped reading this post:
“This is a terrible article. It is perhaps the worst article I have ever seen. Under no circumstances whatsoever should anybody, anywhere, ever waste their time reading this article.
Now let’s consider, in great detail, every part of this article in a lengthy blog post.” bore(Quote)
mack says:
Ah, to have some honest non-religious men as leaders — Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. Or maybe non-religous men all have their own non-traditional religion so to speak — like power — or money — or socialism or communism — or etc.... mack(Quote)
Chris says:
This Human Events article seems to be so bad and basically stupid that it reflects badly on DK that he even thinks it worthwhile discussing on a supposedly reputable blog. Also, DK seems proud of and emphasizes his agreement with much of what the article says. This again reflects badly on DK and his post, because the points of agreement are mostly false as prior commenters (e.g. Specast) have pointed out. There seems to be a trend here (Lindgren, Kopel) of this blog being used by anti-Obama hacks to express basically hackish points of view. Chris(Quote)
TDR says:
Kamal: your arrogance toward beliefs of which you disapprove left me with no surprise when you said approving things of Obama. Your arrogance would seem to be a very natural source of attraction toward an arrogant and self-serving president. Please reconsider your juvenile perspectives on religion. A belief in many gods, or in no god, is just as dangerous. One day, if/when most people agree with you about atheism, we will be living in that South Park episode where atheist factions war with one another about the “true” atheism and persecute those who believe in gods. A persecution borne out already by you and your type (e.g., Dawkins) who label religion as a mental disorder or something which “intelligent” people are too smart for.
In short, the kind of juvenile arrogance — the idea that you, and only you, see the truth — that you display is the problem. TDR(Quote)
Kamal says:
I didn’t say that religion is the only cause of suffering, i’m saying it’s a needless one. Religion doesn’t add anything we can’t divine ourselves. You may disagree with that, but as a moral atheist I know we can find purpose and morality in ourselves, without a higher power. Kamal(Quote)
Loren says:
Surprise, surprise, but Jerry Curry is also a Birther:
http://blogsmithconsulting.blogspot.com/2010/07/retired-army-major-general-jerry-ralph.html Loren(Quote)
Kamal says:
Again, see above. I’m not saying the absence of religion brings peace. I am saying that religion brings unnecessary conflict. My main point was that if you are finger pointing specifically at Islam, you need to explain the atrocities of your own religion. It’s better to leave religion out of these discussion, as all religions are equally bad. Kamal(Quote)
Kamal says:
And as for this.. My main point was that if you are finger pointing specifically at Islam, you need to explain the atrocities of your own religion. It’s better to leave religion out of these discussion, as all religions are equally bad. Calling Obama a Muslim is trying to paint one religion as nutty, and I ask how can you judge one religion more nutty than another? Or more dangerous? As you point out, Atheists can do bad things too, as can polytheists. So why do people call certain terrorists “Islamic Extremists”? How about the guy who crashed his airplane into a federal building recently? Why didn’t people call him a “Christian Terrorist”? Kamal(Quote)
CJColucci says:
I have actually heard the call of the muzzein to prayer at sunrise and sunset. It is beautiful. And I am not a Muslim — not that there’d be anything wrong with that. CJColucci(Quote)
island says:
Obama said he was a muslim.
Why do you change the subject to McCain being a pilot?
You change the subject and provide no evidence that Obama lied when he said “my muslim faith”
I believe Obama is telling the truth.
Why don’t you?
The Rev. Wright does black liberation theology– not Christianity. All he is concerned with is getting rich off of race using Christ. And he is a multi-millionaire.
“So when the treaty said that the US “is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,” what it means is that the US is not a Christian nation in one particular narrow sense?”
You are close– but not there. Americans don’t have to be of a particular Christian religion to be a politician and get elected to office as you do in the muslim nations and Mexico.
The 1784 citation. It was just to illustrate who attacked who first.
People shouldn’t blame the US for muslim propensities. Those people who attacked America in 1784 did not do it for booty. They said they did it for Allah. Booty was a sideline. Did you know that in 1630 they attacked Baltimore, Ireland and took all the inhabitants into slavery in Algeria. They did the same with Iceland. Some deniers will claim the Irish and Icelanders attacked the muslims first. I don’t think Obama is a pirate. But he is enslaving our children and us to pay.
Why else have a private jet for his dog to go on vacation? island(Quote)
Kamal says:
Island makes my point well. Kamal(Quote)
Malvolio says:
What amuses is that the syllogism is not “Obama is is a Muslim, therefore Obama a bad president.” It’s the converse: “Obama is a bad president, therefore Obama is a Muslim.”
You would think to a normal, red-blooded patriotic American, the first part, about whether our president is good at his job, is of vital importance; the other thing, the president’s religion, seems comparatively trivial.
Focusing on the president’s religion allows his defenders to paint his detractors as bigots. Curry must know this, but he still pursues this line of attack.
Does General Curry hate Muslims more than he loves America? Malvolio(Quote)
L says:
He didn’t say he was a Muslim. He used the phrase “my Muslim faith.” What he meant was “my alleged Muslim faith” or “my purported Muslim faith.” I was using the McCain hypothetical to demonstrate that.
Black liberation theology is Christian, by definition, even if it’s not mainstream. Whether he’s a hypocrite or greedy or rich is entirely beside the point. He preaches Christianity; if you’re arguing that Obama was brainwashed by Wright, then Obama has to be a Christian.
Good question! Wait, no it’s not, it’s a terrible question! L(Quote)
Jim says:
Major Gen. Jerry Curry is an Army officer who has been caufght in several lies. If he has any sense of honor left, he should commit suicide. If he has no sense of honor, he should be euthanized by a group of fellow officers. Obama is a side story. The real story is this officer’s lack of integrity and breach of the Honor Code. Jim(Quote)
second history says:
He gave the Saudi king a deep bow from the waist. I thought this was a disgusting gesture for an American President, but it’s not genuflection......
However, Obama bowed even lower to the Emperor and Empress of Japan. That’s not evidence that Obama is a closet Shinto.
Of course, by failing to mention that past Presidents (notably the Bushes) have bowed to Saudi royalty, Prof. Kopel leaves the impression that only President Obama has done this. G.W. Bush also has bowed to the Saudi royals, and in fact exchanged kisses with them.
Not only did President G.H.W. Bush bow to the Japanese Emperor, he did it at the funeral of Akihito’s father, Hirohito, who waged an aggressive war against the US and most of Asia, for which Japan refuses to acknowlege its reponsibility. Nixon also bowed to Mao, who killed millions of Chinese through his policies.
Talk about disgusting.
[DK: I hadn’t known about the Nixon bow to Mao. Here’s a video:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2009/11/richard-nixon-bowing-to-mao-well.html
It’s short and shallow, and to me looks like the kind of thing that businessmen in East Asia routinely do with each other. Even at that, I don’t think he should have done so, all the more so since Mao didn’t reciprocate. I’ll give GHW Bush a pass on bowing to Hirohito’s casket; not sure it was the right move, but funerals are special circumstances. I don’t favor any American President ever bowing to living royalty, and if for some diplomatic reason a bow is essential, the micro-bow that BHO gave QE2 is quite sufficient. I’m no fan of GWB hand-holding or kissing Saudi royals, but it’s a different problem–not a degradation of the American head of state below the level of another head of state.] second history(Quote)
A. Zarkov says:
No needs to prove Obama is a Muslim because it’s an axiom. It’s an axiom in same way race is merely a social construct. A. Zarkov(Quote)
JR says:
@Island
“Why else have a private jet for his dog to go on vacation?”
I’m hope you’re aware that the “private jet for his dog” story is completely false. 30 seconds of research would give you the real story, but you’re clearly not interested in facts. And Muslims aren’t very fond of dogs, by the way. Pampering a dog like that would be pretty un-Islamic. And now that I think about it, his liberal policies on social issues like gay rights, gender equality, and abortion rights would probably irk even a lot of moderate Muslims.
“You are close– but not there. Americans don’t have to be of a particular Christian religion to be a politician and get elected to office”
What are you saying here? That the No Religious Test Clause, despite the plainness of its language, secretly means “No religious test, provided you belong to an approved Christian sect?” You’re right that Americans don’t have to be members of a particular Christian religion to run for public office, but you would be more accurate to leave the “Christian” part out. JR(Quote)
1040 says:
DK, has the Atlantic actually published an article by Sullivan laying out his case for his Trig obsession? The Trig obsession is disgusting, but posts on his blog hardly qualify as comparable to an article in a mag? 1040(Quote)
yankee says:
A traditional gesture of respect to a foreign head of state in his own country makes you a bad President? Seriously?
Talk about BHODS. yankee(Quote)
1040 says:
this is the most hilarious aspect of the post to me. i would be sympathetic to dk if he felt the need to chide his fellow right wing travelers about their extremism and lunacy, but the fact that it needed to be done in such detail and that an outlandish thesis like this needs to be taken seriously is quite pathetic. but one has to love how dk needs to measure depth of bowing to different leaders to show the audience he is talking to that he too is a reasonable man :) 1040(Quote)
geokstr says:
Perhaps because about 99.9% of the thousands of terrorist or religious attacks each year are committed by adherents to the Religion of Perpetual Outrage and have been for a long time? Maybe it’s because of the fact of the 70+ wars going on right now, Muslims are the aggressors in nearly all of them? Could it be because the guy who crashed his airplane wrote a manifesto beforehand that barely touched on religion and didn’t end it with “Allahu Jesus” like the Ft Hood shooter?
Gosh other than that, I can’t imagine why he wasn’t called a “Christian Terrorist”, or why people on the right don’t see a huge contemporary danger from Christians.
Every time I bring up the fact that Islam is the source of most of the violence in the world right now, at this current moment, I get outraged links to the Spanish Inquisition, the Dark Ages, and how Muslims really invented calculus and stuff a thousand years ago. Oh, I forgot, it’s all Bush’s fault.
Really? This “religion” is only a few decades old, and was founded and defined by one James Cone, who specifically says it is based on Marxism, which is by definition — atheistic, non? It posits that one must deny any god that doesn’t see the white race as the devil.
20 years of raging racist drivel, of course, has no effect on anyone. If they went to Harvard, that is. geokstr(Quote)
AJK says:
But Obama unquestionably did misspeak. Even if he is a Muslim, he surely didn’t mean to say so on national television. So either he is a Muslim and forgot that he was trying to keep it a secret, or he isn’t a Muslim and chose his words poorly. Which do you think is more likely? AJK(Quote)
Can't find a good name says:
I have a question for any Obama Birthers who may be reading this. (Please note: I believe Obama was born in Hawaii, but I’m trying to understand the argument against his citizenship premised on him being born in Kenya.)
Until recently, I thought that the main argument that Obama was not a natural born citizen came from the claim that he was actually born in Kenya. If he were not born in the U.S., and since one of his parents (his father) was not a U.S. citizen, the argument went that his mother (who was a U.S. citizen) would have to have lived in the U.S. for at least 5 years after age 14 for the young Barack to have been a U.S. citizen by birth. But he was born when his mother was 18 years old, so she couldn’t have lived in the U.S. for 5 years after age 14 yet at the time.
However, it turns out that that’s not what the law says. Under 8 U.S.C. sec. 1401(g), a person is a U.S. citizen by birth who is born outside the U.S. to parents, one of whom is an alien, and the other of whom is a citizen, who, prior to the birth of the person, had been physically present in the U.S. “for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years”.
Since Barack Obama’s mother was physically present in the U.S. for more than five years of her life before Barack was born, and for more than two years after reaching age 14, then Barack Obama would be a U.S. citizen by birth even if he had been born in Kenya. Can’t find a good name(Quote)
Careless says:
Well, I do. Especially when I was dating my wife and her house, with a mosque basically two houses away, would get blasted at 4 am. Or the hotel room in Malaysia across the street from a mosque that had a loudspeaker pointed right at it (they charge extra for rooms on the other side of the building, purely a noise issue).
Ah, but you’ve underestimated the depth of the plot. Wright is also a Muslim and a ninja (yes, Obama is a secret ninja too). Careless(Quote)
Anderson says:
Chris, given that the article was in a journal taken seriously by many people, it hardly reflects badly on Kopel that he rebutted it. It’s not like he fished up some comment on Free Republic.
C.T. — but what’s with the non-sequitur about the Atlantic and Andrew Sullivan?
“Balance,” my friend. “Balance.” Anderson(Quote)
Thales says:
“–I agree that Obama is deferential and obsequious to American enemies such a Hugo Chavez and the Iranian tyrants, and that he has been the most anti-British President of the United States in well over a century, and that he is seriously harming American relations with Poland, the Czech Republic, France, and other allies. But none of that is evidence that he’s a Muslim.”
And this is the absurdity at which point your detailed critique of the article becomes like the split between the Judean People’s Front and the People’s Front of Judea in The Life of Brian. Thales(Quote)
1040 says:
he is a DUMB secret muslim. don’t you get it?
the same balance which obama did not maintain when he bent too low. DK comes not to bury Obama, but to praise him. 1040(Quote)
JR says:
And let’s not forget Bush holding hands with King Abdullah when said king was vising the U.S. Apparently it’s perfectly normal in Muslim cultures for men to hold hands as a display of friendship, but does that make him a bad president who kowtows to the Muslim King of Saudi Arabia? And Bush wasn’t even vising Saudi Arabia, the King was visiting the U.S.
If there’s nothing wrong with that, what could possibly be wrong with Obama obeying some of the rules of etiquette that apply in the country he’s visiting.
Maybe it’s OK because Bush and King Abdullah make a cute couple. JR(Quote)
Can't find a good name says:
Thales: I’m sure that the Russian government would love to have the relationships between the U.S. on the one hand, and the U.K., France, Czech Republic, and Poland on the other hand, go sour. They would probably also like us to be obsequious to Hugo Chavez and the Iranian government. Does that make Putin and Medvedev Muslims? Can’t find a good name(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
I would like to join all the other posters saying Obama is totally not a Muslim, while adding how he is a racist and a Marxist and a fascist and a bit demonic and evil and Communist which is worse than evil.
Plus he’s been rude to England! Sarcastro(Quote)
Clayton E. Cramer says:
The Treaty of Tripoli is a real stretch. There’s plenty of problems with it, including that the clause in question isn’t in the surviving Arabic copy! You might to look at the Library of Congress’ discussion of religion in the early Republic. It would cause brain explosions at the ACLU.
[DK: As always, your knowledge of early American history is astounding. However, even if clause 11 was missing from the Arabic counterpart, the English version was the one that the Senate ratified and Adams signed. Which, at least, indicates their own attitudes. I agree with your general point that the Early Republic was not exactly the separationist ideal that one might imagine based on 1960s decisions from the Warren Court. However, even accepting that as true, the Tripoli Treaty shows that back in the early days, it wasn’t particularly controversial to say that the U.S. is not a Christian nation. Ergo, Obama should not criticized (or alleged to be a closet Muslim) because he says the same thing.] Clayton E. Cramer(Quote)
Cornellian says:
And the march of nativist paranoia continues. The worldview of people like Curry just isn’t complete without an Emmanuel Goldstein. Cornellian(Quote)
Quasirobed says:
Is this the Frog that left a perfectly good drum corps in New Jersey finish second to that same corps in 1987? Quasirobed(Quote)
Ben P says:
I don’t necessarily know about claims that Obama is affirmatively atheist or agnostic, but I am inclined to agree that religion does not seem to be a driving force in his life. There are many people who honestly self identify as Christians, but for whom Religion is simply not a big deal.
Given that our culture is predominately christian and as long as human nature is such that politicians will do things just to be elected. I don’t see an end of politicians being nominally christian for a long time. Ben P(Quote)
newrouter says:
his father was a muslim. in the islamic world that makes baracky a musselman. newrouter(Quote)
Island says:
Island(Quote)
wolfefan says:
Hi geokstr —
Well, Christianity is a couple of thousand years old, but I know that’s not what you meant. :) Do you have a cite for Cone explcitly stating that his theology founded on Marxism, or for Cone saying he believes one must deny any religon that does not see the white race as the devil? I’m not a big fan of Cone’s, FWIW.
[DK: In the late 20th centuries, there have been plenty of groups which have fused Marxist economics with a (perverted) version of Christianity. For example, Liberation Theology in general, or the Sandinistas in particular. So Cone’s self-identification is a Marxist was not necessarily inconsistent with his view that there is a living and powerful Christian God who hates white people.] wolfefan(Quote)
dr says:
Newrouter thinks Barack Obama is Muslim. In the Undersea Kingdom of Gilmesha that makes Newrouter a French horn. Play us a tune, Newrouter! dr(Quote)
HarryEagar says:
You mean he and Blago drew straws and Obama won the White House?
That’s some powerful party.
Unlike the GOP, which the way I heard it, was going to make Jeb Bush president but somehow accidentally elected the dumb one. HarryEagar(Quote)
grrizzly says:
The law changed in 1986. Oh, and I’m satisfied with the evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, what annoys me is that people don’t even know what they are talking about.
grrizzly(Quote)
1040 says:
what nonsense. this is a truly conspiracy-esque characterization of liberation theology. 1040(Quote)
RPT says:
Your link triggered an anti-virus warning. In addition, assuming the quote is correct, it triggers an objection “what Muslim faith?” RPT(Quote)
RPT says:
But it’s the new kind of socialism where the capitalists win! More Wall Street profits and bonuses! More wealth disparity! More unemployment! A kind of socialism never before seen on earth. RPT(Quote)
newrouter says:
newrouter(Quote)
newrouter says:
newrouter(Quote)
JR says:
Obama’s dog is a secret cat. JR(Quote)
yankee says:
Seems a bit rich for a Jewish law professor to be telling Christians that they’re following a perverted form of their own religion. I don’t think you’re providing a particularly accurate statement of Cone’s theological views either, though I’m not much of an expert on the subject. yankee(Quote)
newrouter says:
you could just google the participants and the subject like i did newrouter(Quote)
David M. Nieporent says:
Can’t find a good name: you’re quoting from the current version of the statute, not the one in place when he was born. Your original analysis was correct — but of course moot, since he was not born in Kenya. David M. Nieporent(Quote)
Crunchy Frog says:
Uh, no. Crunchy Frog(Quote)
AJK says:
But it’s not a matter of making excuses — it’s a matter of trying to understand what happened. Obama definitely made a mistake — that’s true even if you’re totally right. The question is whether he forgot that he wasn’t supposed to say that he was really a Muslim, or if he inadvertantly used language in a misleading way. The latter seems overwhelmingly more likely from where I’m sitting. AJK(Quote)
Floridan says:
DK: “. . .his view that there is a living and powerful Christian God who hates white people”
That white-people-hating Christian God must have been snoozing for the past 500 years. Floridan(Quote)
Anthony says:
Actually, the text you cite doesn’t indicate that BHO having a Muslim father makes him a Muslim, it indicates that him not being Muslim makes his father apostate. Anthony(Quote)
JR says:
But didn’t his father become an atheist later in life? I guess that would make him a Double-Secret Apostate. JR(Quote)
ht4 says:
Frankly, I’m a little disappointed that anyone took the time to give this article serious thought. It gives the author and the text too much respect. ht4(Quote)
wolfefan says:
Hi —
Just a note: the two quotes above (at this writing) that start with my name are actually DK’s response to my comment, not my actual comments. Thank you, DK, for your responses. I’m not sure you’ve characterized Cone as I would (my memory is that he uses “black” not in a strictly racial sense but to identify the whole of the oppressed regardless of race) but it’s too OT to get into now.
Thank you again — I am always grateful for Conspirators who read and respond to comments! wolfefan(Quote)
Strict says:
“One bows to a superior. Kissing, hand-holding, and frolicking are activities among equals.”
Did you just make this up?
There are all sorts of bowing variations.
Sometimes the younger [or “inferior”] person simply bows first before the older [or “superior”] person bows back.
Sometimes the bows are simultaneous but the younger person merely bows deeper.
I don’t think there’s any noticeable difference in the depths of the bow in an Indian namaskar.
I’ve bowed to elder people before, and they’ve bowed back. That doesn’t mean they think I am superior to them!
At the start of a taekwondo or judo match, when the two fighters bow to each other, they are each bowing to a superior?
How is a baciamano an activity among equals?
I also think its’ relevant that Obama bowed to the Japanese Emperor in the Imperial Palace in Japan. Guests bow to their hosts. Obama’s bow to the Saudi king was also not on American soil.
Nixon bowed to Mao and Hirohito, two men much more evil than the Saudi king. That doesn’t mean that Nixon thought Hirohito was superior, or that Japan was superior to America. We crushed Hirohito — there’s no question about who was boss. Strict(Quote)
L says:
You are very easily impressed. I can’t read his mind. I just know how the English language works. Anyone without an axe to grind would understand that’s what he meant.
That’s beautiful, in large part because that’s not how it happened. Close though. Anyway, we can all think of our own explanations for it. If you find it more plausible to believe that Obama, a graduate of Columbia and Harvard Law, thinks there are 60 US states, you go ahead and think that (unless you think he was talking about 57 Muslim states?! More ridiculousness!) I’ll go ahead and think that he made a verbal gaffe saying “fifty” when he meant “forty.” Or maybe he was paying a cryptic tribute to John Kerry (57 varieties... Heinz... Theresa Heinz Kerry... think about it... wheels within wheels my friend).
The thing is, let’s not pretend some people are stretching more than you are to “make excuses.”
Theory A: A tired guy can say “fifty” and mean “forty.”
Theory B: A Columbia and Harvard grad can think there are 60 states in the US.
Theory C: Some debunked nonsense about Islam.
Maybe B is true, but let’s not pretend A is some ridiculous stretch.
He loves his dog so much he got it its own private plane! He hates his dog so much he can’t stand to be on the same plane as it! Are you suffering from whiplash?
And what about the “my muslim faith” comment?!?! L(Quote)
1040 says:
DK wins his own thread. By a light year. 1040(Quote)
Owen H. says:
My parents also agreed to raise me Catholic, in order for my non-Catholic fatherbto marry my mom.
I ain’t Catholic.
Your cites, and just about everything you’ve posted, mean nothing.
And of course they want to harp that he’s secretly Muslim; to the target audience, Islam is the root of all evil in the world. This article was just pandering to the bigot vote.
Owen H.(Quote)
newrouter says:
to you because anything about bho and “what were the ‘dreams of his father’” are cancelled out by putting your fingers in your ears and screaming: “i can’t hear you” newrouter(Quote)
byomtov says:
A quick look at Human Events’ web site makes me commend DK’s decision to move it to the bottom of his reading list. byomtov(Quote)
David Schwartz says:
He neither lied nor misspoke. One can refer to something that doesn’t exist.
For example, if there are rumors that I have a pet unicorn, I can say “Why are people talking about my pet unicorn?” This neither states nor implies that I actually have a pet unicorn.
Obama was similarly talking about discussion of his muslim faith, which neither says nor implies that such a thing exists. People can talk about existent and non-existent things with equal ease. David Schwartz(Quote)
What Are They Smoking at Human Events? | Little Miss Attila says:
Owen H. says:
They mean nothing because it doesn’t matter what his father was supposed to do, or what islamic law supposedly says, what matters is what he does. You see one of the ones screaming and sticking your fingers in your ears. Whether or not he was ever raised in the faith, what he actually is, is Christian. Get over it.
He was not claiming he was Muslim, either.
Owen H.(Quote)
Roger the Shrubber says:
Indeed, and religion is humanity-made. One of its most dangerous and destructive inventions, in fact. Roger the Shrubber(Quote)
public_defender says:
Then the question becomes how do you criticize someone for paying attention to something that does not deserve to be paid attention to without paying attention to that which you just argued should not be paid attention to? public_defender(Quote)
Ricardo says:
Sure, and Jesuits used to believe in the doctrine of equivocation. Don’t trust those sneaky Papists for a second. Ricardo(Quote)
Observer says:
Truly ridiculous article indeed! Muslims, after all, believe in a higher power. How can the writers mistake an atheist for a believer in this manner?
Though I think the point of the article is not that Obama actually self-identifies as a Muslim and believes in Islan, but that for all practical purposes, he is no different as President than a Muslim would have been. Similarly, some called Clinton the “first black President,” but surely they didn’t think that Clinton *actually* was black. Observer(Quote)
grog says:
Of course even eminent publications such as The Atlantic can have a writer who wallows in malicious speculation based on extremely weak and poorly-considered evidence.
Definitely. It is far past time that McArdle be shown the door. grog(Quote)
Mark Field says:
Fair enough, but I’m sure that can be done without making a bunch of absurd arguments/concessions along the way. Mark Field(Quote)
Peter Shalen says:
Um... That’s not quite Brian B’s point, but you’re on the right track... Peter Shalen(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
Sweet, an Ayers 10 minutes of hate! Can we also add the evil of Soros to the pile? Sarcastro(Quote)
Ricardo says:
The funny thing about this is that whenever the subject of religious atrocities comes up, one person mentions the Spanish Inquisition and then someone else inevitably berates them saying that it is ancient history not at all relevant to the modern world.
And yet here we are, debating whether someone is a real Christian by considering his father’s ethno-religious background, what childhood religious practices he may have engaged in, and carefully scrutinizing his actions as an adult to look for any tell-tale signs that Obama is an insincere converso.
True, Major Gen. Curry is not advocating autos de fe but the paranoid rhetoric of people who agree with him — suggesting that since Obama is a closet Muslim that he is a fifth columnist who seeks to undermine the security of United States — would have fit in quite well in medieval Spain. Ricardo(Quote)
dafrank says:
No one can know what lies in a man’s heart. I, myself, doubt very much that Obama is a “secret Muslim.” I wouldn’t call someone who believes that he is a Muslim either prejudiced or crazy, just probably very wrong.
The real issue I see with Obama in regard to Muslims lies in his desperate “outreach” to them.
Unlike most of America’s most reliable critics and enemies, Muslims, not just their despotic dictators and theocratic masters, by a majority worldwide, dislike America. This sometimes seems to be the case even for a substantial portion of the Muslims living in America. The reasons for this are many: Arab ethnocentrism; Islamist hatred for the “other” and the concomitant will to literally conquer all but certain pious Muslims and establish the world-wide Caliphate to apply Sharia law to literally everyone; third world envy of the wealth and ease of the first world which America, more than any other, represents; similarly, third world resentment for the past excesses of colonialism, of which America was least guilty among the Western powers, but of which it is, in practice, emblematic; the strange strain of Leftwing Nasserite populism which inherits the echo of Soviet anti-Americanism and infects an otherwise antithetical Islam of the street; and projection onto the U.S. of blame as the “Big Satan” caused by their extreme frustration in their venting the historically embedded Muslim anti-Semitic urge in the campaign to purge the Islamic Ummah of Israel and its Jews, the Little Satan. For all these reasons, and probably many more, we cannot hope very soon to have the average Muslim in the streets of Cairo, Bagdad, or even Amman or Riyadh, “reallly rellllly” like us. And, what we can do to change that is not much more than renounce our entire culture and political system, and likely convert the whole country to Islam. That not being an immediate nor desirable option, the burden of our getting along with Islam needs to fall more on Muslims than on ourselves.
Given the above, Obama’s often mentioned naive presupposition that since his middle name sounds like it belongs to a Muslim and that since, he too dislikes the pre-Obama America, in the same sense that almost every Left-wing academic dislikes America, then the Muslim world should easily find common cause with him to come closer to the new and improved “Obama– America.” Predictably, instead, and Arab culture being what it is, most Arab Muslims (and Arab Muslims control the conversation about Islam even in non-Arab Muslim states — Iran excepted) just see him as a weak pleader and like us even less. So, Obama’s self-assigned mission to the Muslim world is doomed, and we are all the worse for it.
In conclusion, I think that President Obama is not a Muslim, probably wishes he could have the affection of Muslims that he personally enjoyed as a child, is a naive and bumbling neophyte, even perhaps a misanthrope, in foreign policy, and is a perfect example of a far-leftwing academic who has never very much liked or admired his country or its history, and is determined to do whatever it takes to reshape our nation according to his vision of a socialist welfare state, apportioning our nation’s wealth according to a Marxist and Deconstructionist-inspired class, racial and ethnic spoils system. One need not speculate as to his religion to be very wary of his administration. dafrank(Quote)
leo marvin says:
Don’t knock WWN. For some around here it’s a primary news source. leo marvin(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
These are true facts! Too true to prove, at least!! Sarcastro(Quote)
L says:
Yes, there’s a “naive presupposition” here, but I don’t think it’s Obama’s.
L(Quote)
Arkady says:
Deconstructionist...Jesus, I didn’t realize it was that bad. Arkady(Quote)
William Elbel says:
Worth repaating from above
Quote
In conclusion, I think that President Obama is not a Muslim, probably wishes he could have the affection of Muslims that he personally enjoyed as a child, is a naive and bumbling neophyte, even perhaps a misanthrope, in foreign policy, and is a perfect example of a far-leftwing academic who has never very much liked or admired his country or its history, and is determined to do whatever it takes to reshape our nation according to his vision of a socialist welfare state, apportioning our nation’s wealth according to a Marxist and Deconstructionist-inspired class, racial and ethnic spoils system. One need not speculate as to his religion to be very wary of his administration.
Unquote William Elbel(Quote)
Andrew Lale says:
Can I just say that the call to prayer is a very beautiful and evocative sound, if heard in the right place at the right time in the right country. Except the new Muzak pre-recorded versions now popular in places like Dubai, which are dreadful. Andrew Lale(Quote)
setnaffa says:
There is more evidence every day of Obama’s fecklessness... To some, that’s proof he is a Muslim... He claims to be a Christian, I hear; but never paid attention to the sermons from his marxist preacher...
I don’t care what his religion is. I don’t care what his birth certificate says. He’s not Presidential enough. His actions speak volumes.
See you in November 2010 and 2012... setnaffa(Quote)
just saying says:
Really? The Israel/Palestine problem is the result of fanatical Jews? Has nothing to do with Palestine terrorists tossing rocket bombs at Israel civilians daily or with Palestine hoping, wishing and praying for the total annihilation of Israel and Jews? Wow, just wow. just saying(Quote)
Masturbatin' Pete says:
I’d pefer if we could leave this sort Masturbatin’ Pete(Quote)
BehindYou! says:
“Indeed, and religion is humanity-made. One of its most dangerous and destructive inventions, in fact.”
Just like soccer. BehindYou!(Quote)
Omar says:
I tend to think he’s an agnostic, but will show up at whatever faith gathering will score him the most points with the people he wants to impress at the time. If — and I mean IF — I was inclined toward conspiracy theories, I’d look at his college days when he changed his name from Barry to Barack, and (at least according to Percy Sutton) got an assist into Harvard via islamo-black nationalist Khaled Mansour. . . . Sure Sutton was old and squirrelly, but that’s always been the one that got my black helicopters spinning. Omar(Quote)
Alinka says:
I don’t understand the focus on Obama personally. He is an effete, feckless, ineffective president, playing third fiddle to two Democrat legislative bodies enacting their own agenda. If Obama has an agenda, it’s never had much impact on policy.
Any suggestion that Obama is a factor uniquely alien or antithetical to American cultural values in our government misplaces what should be attention drawn to how truly out-of-step are the vast majority of Democrats in the House and Senate. Alinka(Quote)
LN says:
LN(Quote)
Star Thrower says:
I don’t know what Obama thinks of himself as, but it is a fact that according to Islam, if your father is a Muslim then you are a Muslim. So, according to Islam, Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim. Make of it what you will, but that is a fact of Islam. Star Thrower(Quote)
Ricardo says:
1. Obama did not attend a “madrassa” in Indonesia. Since his mother could not afford to send him to an international school, he went to an Indonesian public school during the Suharto era which taught classes on Islam but was in no way a madrassa.
2. Obama was raised by his stepfather and his mother’s parents, not by his birth father.
3. His birth father was in any case an atheist.
But if you want to continue to rely on the Clinton family for all your information about politics, feel free. Ricardo(Quote)
mj86 says:
“Mr. Curry, however, listed only characteristics which are common to some Muslims and many non-Muslims: thinks America is not a Christian nation, dislikes the British, acts obsequious around some non-British royals, is anti-Israel, is weak on border security, tries to ingratiate himself with tyrants.”
First, Obama isn’t a Muslim except in the meaningless that to Muslims if your father is a Muslim you are also. Since we don’t recognize religion as inheritable this idea shouldn’t matter to us.
But I’m curious, in this list of evidence you omit the only real evidence asserted by Curry, that Obama was listed as a Muslim in his school records. Why do you omit this? Do we even know this is true? mj86(Quote)
Steve_NO says:
well, yeah, there’s that Steve_NO(Quote)
fwb says:
The Treaty of Tripoli was a lie. The Constitution is a Christian document. The evidence is there for those who can comprehend. It has existed since the first draft and is part and parcel of the Constitution, especially its procedural aspect.
Try reading. IF you know your Constitution and Christian doctrine it will be apparent. If not, good luck.
Duh, those in power DO NOT READ what they approve/sign. What makes you think Adams and the other read anything before signing? Human nature does not change. DD, SS. fwb(Quote)
yankee says:
So true! But hardly surprising, since, as the Tea Partier in Chief reminds us, most Americans are from fake America. yankee(Quote)
Angus says:
How can someone “change their name” to what is actually their name. His name has been Barack since he was born. Angus(Quote)
Roger the Shrubber says:
I couldn’t agree more completely. Roger the Shrubber(Quote)
Per Son says:
Are people really debating whether Obama is a Muslim or not? Per Son(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
Convincing! I’m going to use this next time I want to argue something. Sarcastro(Quote)
Roger the Shrubber says:
Which is why it mentions Jesus like, hundreds of times. And compels us all to be Christian, under a Christian state church. Roger the Shrubber(Quote)
Justin says:
Roger, don’t be silly, only the SLAVERY parts are Christian.
(Edit: For those who are too dense, this is TIC/Sarcasm.) Justin(Quote)
CJColucci says:
Star Thrower says:
I don’t know what Obama thinks of himself as, but it is a fact that according to Islam, if your father is a Muslim then you are a Muslim. So, according to Islam, Barack Hussein Obama is a Muslim. Make of it what you will, but that is a fact of Islam.
I don’t know what Star Thrower thinks of himself as, but it is a fact that according to the religion of CJColucci-ism, if CJColucci says Star Thrower is an idiot then he is an idiot. So, according to CJColucci-ism, Star Thrower is an idiot. Make of it what you will, but that is a fact of CJColucci-ism. CJColucci(Quote)
Alec Rawls says:
There is overwhelming evidence that Obama is not just a Muslim, but is an Islamofascist, or Islamic supremacist (that is, an orthodox Muslim). Unfortunately, it sounds like Curry did not touch on any of it.
For instance, on Obama singing the beginning of the call to prayer for Nicolas Kristof, people need to know that the call to prayer opens with what is called the Shahada — the Muslim declaration of faith — one sincere recital of which makes one a Muslim according to sharia law. THAT is the importance of his calling it one of the prettiest sounds on earth. That’s an expression of sincerity.
There are lots of similar personal expression. In his Cairo speech, Obama talked of visiting the area where the Koran was “revealed,” and repeatedly referred to it as sacred and holy. Anyone who thinks that the Koran was “revealed” is a Muslim.
But the hard evidence is his long list of Islamofascist mentors and confidants, such as his “cousin” Raila Odinga who, like Obama, calls himself a Christian, but confessed in 2007 to signing a Memorandum of Understanding with Kenya’s Muslim leaders, starting with a declaration that he “recognized Islam as the only true religion” (i.e. that is is a Muslim). Other provisions promise to impose Sharia law on Kenya (indicating that he is an Islamic supremacist).
Obama is VERY close to Odinga, creating a diplomatic uproar on his 2006 visit to Kenya with his attacks on the sitting government in the service of Odinga.
The list of Islamofascist mentors and associates goes on and on, starting with William “Abu Zayd” Ayers and Obama’s “ex-Muslim” pastor Jeremiah Wright (who apparently studied enough about Islam to realize that he was supposed to call himself Christian, if by doing so he could advance the cause of Islamic conquest). Details at my link.
It doesn’t sound like Mr. Kopel has done his own due diligence on this subject. Alec Rawls(Quote)
Ricardo says:
And it is at this point that we see the distinction between religious and ethnic bigotry crumble. Let’s take one of Curry’s sentences above and modify it a bit: “Jews only pretend to trust and be friends with non-Jews; in the deepest of their Jewish hearts they have been taught that all non-Jews are infidels.”
70 years ago, Curry could have spouted the above crap at any given country club and still be well-received. It’s the same paranoid, delusional nonsense applied to a different ethno-religious group. Ricardo(Quote)
yankee says:
And it uses the phrase “Year of our Lord!” And gives the President Sundays off his bill-reading responsibilities! And lets people affirm oaths rather than swear them! yankee(Quote)
Mark Field says:
This is a fun game to play. Mark Field(Quote)
Harry S. Plinkett says:
Actually, the muezzin’s call–the adhan–has been the soundtrack of Muslim persecution of Jews, Christians, Hindus, and others for more than a thousand years. It is the leitmotif of dhimmitude. And as such I find the president’s comments extremely troubling. Harry S. Plinkett(Quote)
inspectorudy says:
I sense a lot of smugness on this topic generally from the pro Obama side but some from the atheist side. Some of you have fallen into the trap of equating Islam with religion. It is so much more of a controlling force than mere religion is that you have to be ignorant not to know that. Some of you simple minded bring up the Crusades as if that was going on now and conveniently leave out the reason for the Crusades. If the world continues on the road of birth rates the way it is now we will all be Muslims in 50 years or subjugated by them. Please do yourselves a favor and read “The Grand Jihad” by Andrew McCarthy. Many of the mistakes you have made on this site will be corrected for you. One of the biggest mistakes that some of you have made is that Muslims are honorable. They are encouraged to lie, cheat, make false promises and any other thing that will ADVANCE Islam. They kill, sexually mutilate, oppress women, abuse children, control every part of their follower’s lives and all in the name of peace. I think Obama is a religious opportunist who latched onto Wright’s church for black credibility and found that he agreed with him on many issues including hate for whites. His book “Dreams from My Father” reveals this on several occasions. Whether or not Obama is a Muslim will not be determined here but for some of you to say “So What?” is beyond stupid. The damage to our nation by a true Muslim, where religion tops fidelity, would be unfathomable. inspectorudy(Quote)
Jon Rowe says:
fwb
The Constitution is GODLESS. Jon Rowe(Quote)
Jon Rowe says:
And it uses the phrase “Year of our Lord!”
The customary way of stating the date. If that’s the basis for the “Christian” component to the Constitution, it shows how little there is.
Perhaps the middle ground position would be “the Constitution is a nominally ‘Christian’ document.”
Three cheers for “nominal Christianity.” Jon Rowe(Quote)
Strict says:
“He claims to be a Christian, I hear; but never paid attention to the sermons from his marxist preacher..”
I thought Obama said he never heard Rev Wright say certain specific things. Obama never claimed to have never heard Rev Wright say anything at all.
The criticism of Obama varies so wildly: sometimes he’s a gullible pawn controlled and brainwashed by his former church preacher [and he’s an effete third fiddle who just does what he’s told to do] or by his early education in Muslimstan, and sometimes he’s a a manipulative egomaniacal puppetmaster with a secret religion and a secret agenda [and remember, the Antichrist is supposed to be a well spoken charmer!]. Strict(Quote)
yankee says:
Is a true Muslim like a true Scotsman?
I think you may need to update your sarcasm detector. yankee(Quote)
Jon Rowe says:
It also could be the reason why John Adams pushed thru the Treaty of Tripoli was because of his unitarian worldview.
Adams believed in a very interesting form of “Christianity” (if his belief system properly merits that label at all).
“An incarnate God!!! An eternal, self-existent, omnipresent omniscient Author of this stupendous Universe, suffering on a Cross!!! My Soul starts with horror, at the Idea, and it has stupified the Christian World. It has been the Source of almost all of the Corruptions of Christianity.”
– John Adams to John Quincy Adams, March 28, 1816. Jon Rowe(Quote)
Mark K.. Benenson says:
David, good to see you writing about something other than guns. Mark Mark K.. Benenson(Quote)
Jon Rowe says:
Yankee,
Re the sarcasm detector, it’s difficult because there are a lot of folks out there who do argue for a “Christian Constitution” and use “In the Year of Our Lord” as a key point in their argument.
I think there may be something to a soft-secular/nominal Christianity — dare I say “implicitly unitarian” — political theological basis to the US Constitution.
America’s Founding was “secular” but not in the way the French Revolution was. Jon Rowe(Quote)
timb says:
Did this guy just blame Islam for piracy? Don’t tell Bluebeard? Heck, don’t notice that piracy in the Med predates Rome, let alone Islam., What a kook timb(Quote)
Cory says:
The principle of Taqiyyah actually argues very strongly *against* the “Obama is a muslim” silliness. Taqiyyah is almost never practiced amongst Sunnis — most consider it takfir, a declaration of apostasy. In fact, even among Shia’s, only the Ja’fari school really condones it. Even they typically emphasize that it is only when one is faced with the threat of physical harm from infidels, which is emphatically not the case here. Cory(Quote)
Mark Field says:
Just like church bells in Spain. Mark Field(Quote)
timb says:
Ah the genius of the Protein Wisdom crowd. Never ceases to amaze. Weren’t you the same guy who linking to Vdare articles over there? timb(Quote)
Jon Rowe says:
And yet, Jefferson, J. Adams, Franklin, probably Washington and many others thought Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same benevolent God:
“It has pleased the Providence of the first Cause, the Universal Cause, that Abraham should give religion not only to Hebrews but to Christians and Mahomitans, the greatest part of the modern civilized world.”
– John Adams to M.M. Noah, July 31, 1818. Jon Rowe(Quote)
Harry S. Plinkett says:
Accepting that analogy for the sake of argument, I don’t recall McCain rhapsodizing on how sweet was the sound of the church bells of Spain ringing out the Reconquista. Harry S. Plinkett(Quote)
Mark Field says:
And nobody is claiming that the call to prayer to celebrate the capture of Jerusalem was sweet. The only point made was a very general one, and it applies to the tolling of church bells equally well. Mark Field(Quote)
Harry S. Plinkett says:
Not really. In most countries today where the muezzin is heard the rights of religious minorities are in jeopardy. That is simply not true of places where church bells toll for a majority of Christians.
More to the point, we’ve heard about the president’s praise of the adhan; I don’t think he’s ever praised the Angelus bell. Harry S. Plinkett(Quote)
Mark Field says:
He’s never praised the sound of little kids at a birthday party either. He must hate the little buggers.
I can’t see that this has anything to do with the sound of church bells. They sounded in the Middle Ages pretty much like they sound now. It’s a nice sound, even for those of us who aren’t, say, Catholic. Mark Field(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
Or maybe that’s what they want you to think, and they’re ALL practicing it! Sarcastro(Quote)
L says:
For my aesthetic taste, I really like the Socialist Realist art. I like some of the Nazi art too. Although I never got around to finishing it, I really enjoyed the first half of The Fountainhead. I liked Ender’s Game a lot. Although I don’t generally see his movies because I don’t wish to support him, I can still enjoy a Mel Gibson movie if it comes on the TV. I enjoyed “Rosemary’s Baby.”
I don’t know if I would find the muezzin’s call beautiful or not, but I think it’s a shame when a rigid insistence on ideological purity keeps us from enjoying what is aesthetically pleasing.
(And no, before anyone asks or accuses, I’m not saying the Soviets, the Nazis, Rand, Card, Gibson, Polanski, and Muslims are equally bad.) L(Quote)
yankee says:
I thought the excessive use of exclamation points would be sufficient to indicate my point, but I guess not. yankee(Quote)
CockleCove says:
For some years, I have considered the comments on The Volokh Conspiracy to be an oasis from the low level of discourse typically found elsewhere on the ‘net. Even when I didn’t agree with the analyses and conclusions of the principal contributors and those presented in the follow-up comments, I appreciated the erudite and well-considered tacks, the generally respectful tone. I enjoyed the witty humor. The thought and intelligence generally found here expanded my horizons, often prompted me to reconsider issues in a different light.
But now that the site has been discovered by a raft of people who don’t seem to be in the legal field, the Comments sections here are far less rewarding for me. There’s more of the drek seen elsewhere, and it too often feels like we’re in the juvenile sandbox typical of most web sites. I think that’s truly unfortunate. CockleCove(Quote)
geokstr says:
I culled the links below with a google search on “black liberation theology marxism” which got 243,000 hits. I can’t find the direct quote of Cone’s right now, but I have linked to it in past posts on the subject of Wright and related issues:
geokstr(Quote)
Manju says:
The whole debate is designed to cover up the fact that Trig is a secret Muslim. How else to explain his failure to notify Jews working in the WTC of 911?
It is possible however, that he recieved a job offer from Diebold, who wanted maximum 911 damage in order to lessen the amount of machines Trig would have to Rig, but thats unlikley since the last person they paid by the hour was Vince Foster. Manju(Quote)
Seerak says:
Fixed.
(The “right”, which merely means “non-Left” when any Leftist uses it, is far more intellectually diverse than the monolithic Left.) Seerak(Quote)
Omar says:
Actually, Sunnis do get to lie — apparently whenever it’s inopportune to seem too devout in Dar al harb. Qaradawi said so just last week (I suspect this new “flexibility” is largely in response to opposition to the ground zero mosque, the recently displayed and weel defended islamophobia of Newt Gingrich at AEI and excellent books like the new one by Andrew McCarthy):
Here’s an excerpt of the explanation by Raymond Ibrahim:
” . . . The most significant point of the program came when Qaradawi said that taysir is especially needed in “this era” and “especially for those Muslim minorities living in Europe and America.”
“Now, why is that? For starters, by migrating to the West of their own free will, Muslims themselves — not “uncontrollable circumstances” — create this apparent need for taysir. Moreover, Western religious freedom allows Muslims to uphold Islam’s fundamental Five Pillars: Muslims can proclaim the shahada (profession of faith), pray, fast, give zakat (except to terrorists), and go on the hajj. So what, exactly, is Sheikh Qaradawi referring to that makes living in the West especially hard on Muslims?
“The answer is obvious: Qaradawi is referring to those other aspects of Sharia law — you know, subjugation of non-Muslim infidels, absolute authority over women, jihad, draconian punishments, and all the rest —that do create “hardships” for Muslims who try to implement them in the West, for instance, by getting them arrested and imprisoned.
“In other words, far from “liberalizing” Muslim life, taysir allows only for insincere conformity. As Qaradawi made clear, to practice taysir is not to renounce Sharia’s otherwise harsh obligations; it is to put them on hold till circumstances are more accommodating.
Qaradawi’s Muslim Brotherhood colleague, Tariq Ramadan, provides an ideal example: he recommends that a “moratorium” — a temporary ban — be placed on the Muslim practice of stoning adulterers to death; yet he refuses to say that stoning is intrinsically un-Islamic. . . ”
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/7749/top-muslim-cleric-qaradawi-urges-western-muslims Omar(Quote)
mantis says:
Fixed.
(The “right”, which merely means “non-Left” when any Leftist uses it, is far more intellectually diverse than the monolithic Left.)
Fixed badly. A “Monolithic left” is an absurdity only an idiot would seriously believe. mantis(Quote)
Seerak says:
When considered in light of Deism, this sort of thing is the thinnest possible gruel.
Deism is the view that God created the universe in a single act, and has not involved himself since — it’s the last step towards outright metaphysical atheism, and often served as a cover for it in polite company. The Church still had a lot of clout in those days, and the idea that atheism=immorality was still sufficiently prevalent to make prudent such pretense.
(And that is separate from the question of the ideological roots of the American idea; unanswered by the religionists is the question of why the notion of individual rights was largely unknown through 1000 years of feudal Christianity, only to crystallize during the rise of Western secularism.)
The Founder’s professions of fealty to God have about as much substance as Obama’s lip service to “free markets”. Seerak(Quote)
Jon Rowe says:
“Deism is the view that God created the universe in a single act, and has not involved himself since —”
I don’t see that in Jefferson, J. Adams, Washington or even Franklin. Rather I see a warm theism, but not orthodox Christianity. Jon Rowe(Quote)
Martha says:
re: whether Rev Wright’s extreme beliefs are Christian . . .
There has long been a strand of Christian thought that believes “Government X is evil and deserves God’s punishment because it allows Sin Y.”
Rev. Wright’s “God Damn America for treating her citizen as less than human” relies on the same basic logic as Pastor Hagee’s “Hurricane Katrina was the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.” Wright is just focusing on the sin of oppression, rather than the sin of homosexuality. Martha(Quote)
1040 says:
i take it then that you think the toll of church bells (or at least a large fraction of them) symbolizes pedophilia and rape of children? 1040(Quote)
george says:
I’m a Southerner. (No,not a Texan) Haven’t lived in the South for over 50 years. When I did live there, it was an in and out kind of thing. We moved around a lot. But my mother was a Southerner, and my great grandfather fought for the rebels. I lived there maybe a total of 5 years. But they were formative years — went to a segregated school, learned history from a southern perspective, surrounded by confederate flags and country music. Went to a Baptist church.
Don’t believe much of that these days, but still, it’s part of my upbringing. So I’m not what you might call a practicing Southerner. I’m sort of Southern-flavored. And I see things from a Southern perspective.
I’d say it’s the same sort of thing as with Obama. Is he a Muslim in any rigorous sense? Nope. But he has a Muslim flavored perspective. It could hardly be otherwise. Islam was probably the only stable thing in his life as a boy.
The Human Events article overstates the matter. But it would be a mistake to discount the impact that living in a Moslem environment as a child had and continues to have on Obama. It is part of his heritage. george(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
You’re like a detective when it comes to figuring out Obama’s secret thoughts! Sarcastro(Quote)
Harry S. Plinkett says:
The point is: The president praised the sound of the Muslim call to prayer. I pointed out that that sound is the anthem of oppression to many around the world who are members of religious minorities in Muslim countries. You said: the same could be said for church bells. I said, no, where church bells ring, in majority Christian countries, religious minorities have their rights protected. Harry S. Plinkett(Quote)
george says:
Sarcastro:
You can’t escape your childhood. About the best you can do is overcome it. george(Quote)
Mark Field says:
Yes, and my response was that church bells sounded just as nice — in fact, exactly the same — under the Inquisition as they do now.
Bacon still smells great, even if I know I shouldn’t eat it. Mark Field(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
And george knows what Obama’s childhood meant to him.
I also like how Muslims can;t have pretty things. Not that Harry S. Plinkett dislikes them, they just are always oppressing people.
Way to generalize! Sarcastro(Quote)
Lou Gots says:
Well, personally I don’t think Obama is a Muslim, or much of anything else. I think he’s a goniff, a chisler, who changes his persona to suit his immediate audience. He evokes the image of a skilled prostitute, offering, “I can be anything you like.”
Now with his verbal slip about “my Muslim faith,” and that one about the “57 states,” maybe if I were an Arizona cop I would want to see his green card. Lou Gots(Quote)
Martha says:
You mean, apart from his Christian mother? Martha(Quote)
Rachel says:
Comparing this writers use of actual known facts and actions to conclude that Obama may have Muslim sympathies .... to Sullivan’s Trig Palin delusions that Sarah Palin and the entire State of Alaska were in on a conspiracy to fake her own pregnancy and hide her daughters birth of Trig — hardly puts you in a position to complain about poor journalistic standards. Rachel(Quote)
island says:
Timb, you need to Learn to read, or I need to write more clearly.
I never said the muslims invented piracy.
I said they excused their piracy saying Allah told them to do it to be better muslims.
The real point is that Islam attacked us first.
Yes they were pirates. But their excuse was Allah told them to do it.
Don’t let the muslims continue their lie about it and claim constantly that America attacked them first.
The muslim pirates/attackers did do piracy and excused their heinous acts by saying the Koran gave them permission. So they used their religion to justify attacking, murdering, slavery, and stealing against America in the very first year of our freedom 1784.
The reason they did not attack before was we were under British rule and the British paid the extortion money for us.
But, You aren’t the only one that makes up imaginary “facts” to rebut. island(Quote)
mantis says:
But he has a Muslim flavored perspective. It could hardly be otherwise. Islam was probably the only stable thing in his life as a boy.
Christian mother, atheist (absent) father, majority of upbringing in Hawaii, along with four years living in Indonesia, for three of which he attended a Roman Catholic school, and a secular state school for the fourth. But hey, that school had classes on Islam, so clearly Islam was the only stable thing in his life as a boy, and from that wealth of evidence george can accurately read Obama’s mind. mantis(Quote)
yankee says:
I have some bad news for you concerning Christianity and the slave trade. yankee(Quote)
L says:
Trig birtherism is also based on “actual known facts and actions.” What’s crazy about Trig birtherism is the crazy conclusions drawn from those “actual known facts and actions.” In this way, it is not at all different from the “Obama is a Muslim” ridiculousness. L(Quote)
Rachel says:
Well, I suppose if you are willing to compare actual “known facts” that all parties are willing to agree on v/s “known facts” that require a mountain of “unknown facts” to be kept secret by nearly everyone in the State of Alaska.... then I suppose you have a point.
You are entitled to your opinion. You don’t have to agree with the writer’s conclusions to acknowledge he is working with “known facts” we are all aware of. I still find it amusing that someone who considers himself a serious blogger would compare Sullivan’s Trig conclusions as an example in this case to complain about poor journalistic standards. Or should I say journolist-ic standards? Rachel(Quote)
Athena says:
So sayeth Marx... Athena(Quote)
1040 says:
what about christian children? 1040(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
This is also nothing compared to the Holocaust. I think you people complaining should take a long hard look at yourselves. Sarcastro(Quote)
Rachel says:
is this site dripping irony or what?
Taking facts present to wonder if Obama has Muslim sympathies is:
utterly ridiculous
Taking facts presented to wonder if Obama is agnostic is:
profound Rachel(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
Yes, Rachel. Smooth, like a Rhapsody speaks for all liberals! Sarcastro(Quote)
Rachel says:
I wasn’t aware I couldn’t find irony in a comment that was not made by an official spokesperson for “all liberals”. Should I consider you to be the POC? Rachel(Quote)
leo marvin says:
And you think claiming to like bacon will make us think you’re not Muslim? Nice try. leo marvin(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
[Sure, Rachel, I just thought your point was liberals are hypocrites. Like how you acted as though Andrew Sullivan’s madness meant liberals couldn’t mock the Muslim thing. Sarcastro(Quote)
Mark Field says:
Shh. I don’t want my Jewish wife and kids to find out. Mark Field(Quote)
Rachel says:
My point was hypocrites.
Word of wisdome for the day: Don’t be too quick to jump up and scream at the umpire everytime your pitcher throws a wild one. It just makes you look like you need glasses :-) Rachel(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
[So your point was simply that hypocrites exist? If so, I agree.] Sarcastro(Quote)
Tea Party Tax Protestor aka Racist says:
He can’t be a Muslim. He’d have to worship something other than himself. Tea Party Tax Protestor aka Racist(Quote)
WF says:
How this guy got to be a major general of anything is totally amazing WF(Quote)
Manju says:
not true. he could be allah Manju(Quote)
Ernst Blofeld says:
Actually, his muslim father combined with his later professed acceptance of Christianity would make him an apostate in Islamic eyes. (I suspect he came to Jesus through a desire to gain votes, and is in reality an agnostic or atheist.)
While Obama attended a Catholic school from first through third grade, he was listed as Muslim in the registration form. In the public school he attended teachers also recall him as being listed as a Muslim, and in his autobiography he mentions attending a Koranic studies class, which would mean he was enrolled as a Muslim.
Daniel Pipes rounds up assorted press reports on Obama’s school religious status here: http://www.danielpipes.org/5544/barack-obamas-muslim-childhood . He responds to some criticisms here: http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=29425
Lolo Sotero, Obama’s stepfather in Indonesia, was a rather indifferent Muslim, but a Muslim, and attended Friday prayers on an irregular basis.
Of course to Western and Christian eyes this is not proof of Obama’s Islamic faith, and his later profession of Christian faith would make him a Christian. The Islamic criteria are not the same. Ernst Blofeld(Quote)
Rachel says:
No, my point was: Comparing this writers use of actual known facts and actions to conclude that Obama may have Muslim sympathies — to Sullivan’s madness (as you say) — puts Dave Kopel in a poor position to complain about poor journalistic standards. You can agree or disagree with the generals conclusions. But for Kopel to mock the general for leaping to Muslim is no less ridiculous than Kopels leap to Sullivan.
If I say, Julie was wears a cross and sings when she hears church bells, and that is a true statement, then it is not freaking outrageous to think she might have some Christian sympathies. But to then compare someone who might voice that thought to someone who is bat-s crazy like Sullivan is, well, not a serious journalist. Rachel(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
[So you don’t think the Muslim thing is sufficiently crazy to be compared to the Trig thing.
Sorry, don’t think they differ.
The amount of evidence Obama is not Muslim is rather large. Obama’s own words, going to church, having a dog, eating pork. One needs some serious sample-bias to say Muslim.
Just like Sully needs to be crazy to see some photos and ignore all evidence to the contrary.] Sarcastro(Quote)
public_defender says:
One Palin critic’s obsession with one birth story is a far cry from the obsession of large parts of the Right with loony stories that Obama is a Muslim and not even an American citizen. And the fact that calling him a Muslim is considered to be an automatically bad thing reflects the bigotry of those who have that weird obsession. public_defender(Quote)
Rachel says:
.
funny how, despite all of that evidence, no one got worked into a lather over the commenters who determined the evidence concludes he is an agnostic rather than a Christian who is a 20 year believer in the Rev White’s racist, antisemitic tripe. Oh that’s right, he was (not)watching Snookie on his blackberry during the service and had no idea what Wright was saying.
When Kopel was making the case that the Generals comments were more like a blog post than research paper, he was on solid ground. It was clearly an opinion piece, much like the same as those commenters who say they believe he is an agnostic or atheist.
But it is indeed irony when Kopel compares Sullivans deranged rantings to the generals use of Obama’s actual known background to complain aout poor journalistic standards.
It’s not about whether or not the general made his case. It’s about the irony of the comparison. Unless of course Kopel finds Sullivan Trig theory to be something other than totally deranged..... in which case ... it is still pretty ironic he’s complaining about journalistic standards. Rachel(Quote)
Manju says:
I think the agnostic stuff is a little different, in that it represents an historical awareness of the fact that, to paraphrase Machiavelli, while the prince must never be too religious (because excessive religious sentiment will prevent him from doing the cruel things necessary to stay in power) the prince must always appear to be religious...since he will then have the goodwill of the people. Manju(Quote)
Manju says:
Look, its just religion. You’re supposed to treat it like the Special Olympics. Kennedy wasn’t beholden to the pope, Romney doesn’t share Mormonism’s racist roots, and Lieberman doesn’t think he’s one of the chosen people.
The Prince is supposed to be religious enough so his peeps will identify, but not so religious that he believes all the kooky shit. Our regime was designed to defang religion by allowing it maximum freedom while simultaneously curtailing its role in serious state affairs. The Founders wanted to relegate it to matters of opinion, since if religion possessed any deeper truth that could be known, its unclear why that truth shouldn’t be legislated.
By taking Rev Wright so seriously you’re undermining the American project. You think Reagan actully followed Falwell? He gave the him some crumbs, basically words but litlle action on abortion, and kept the savages in line. Remember, “special olympics” (but don’t say it out loud, we don’t want to patronize). Get with the program, please. Manju(Quote)
dafrank says:
To Sarcastro–
If you were more interested to find out if what I said was true about Muslim attitudes, you might have devoted about 75 seconds to a search of the internet to find this (one of many examples available) poll on the internet:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/361.php?lb=btvoc&pnt=361&nid=&id
which quite supports precisely what I said about Muslim attitudes towards the Unites States. This and other bits of scientific polling only support the intuition of a vast swath of the world which saw Muslims around the world dancing in the streets after 9/11/2001 and the countless declarations of Jihad and Islamic triumphalism over America made every week in the Arab and Muslim world. I am sorry if this makes you too uncomfortable to acknowledge, but it is, unfortunately, true.
As to whether left wing academics have a distaste for the United States as a historical entity, I am at a disadvantage in trying to bring forth a particualr poll, as, of course, no one at a university would dare undertake such a poll and no one would want to bother to spend the necessary money to conduct one with a private polling firm for the simple reason that the answers are so obvious and overwhelmingly on display. It is well documented that college professors are at least overwhelmingly liberal in their political outlook and that the drivers of curriculum, especially in the social sciences, lean overwhelmingly to the socialist and Marxist side. And to true Socialists and Marxists, the U.S. has been “boogeyman number one” since at least sometime in the 1920’s or 30’s. Look at the curriculum of any major university outside of the hard sciences and it will be quite easily illustrated for you. The extreme left-wing radicals of the 60’s have marched through the academy and have conquered it nearly completely.
Obama’s own career, before national politics, illustrates nothing but the trappings of the left wing academy and activism of the community organizer, itself a term of art created to describe what would otherwise be clearly and accurately labeld as a hard-core socialist missionary. Unashamedly following Alinsky, and teaching the Alinsky drill to his charges is a pretty good indicator. “Fundamentally transforming America” meant something, as did his standing pat for 20 years on his personally chosen and much praised, raving and racist anti-American pastor Wright. And don’t forget the “tell” of his own wife in her dreadful Madison, Wisconsin speech in 2008: she said, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change.” So, if Michelle was proud only for the first time in her life, what must have both the Obamas felt before his ascendancy in advance of him being elected?
To Arkady — look up the word “deconstructionist.” Apparently you need to come to some understanding of what it has wrought in the political sphere. You will find in it one of the underpinnings of the left-wing academic critique of the entire American project, its economy, its social system and cohesion, its culture and its history as told to past generations. This is quite enough to label it as an academic theme and pose associated with the general dislike of the United States as most people understand it.
Last, my concluding paragraph was simply my opinion, arrived at by my experience and judgment, based on a combination of fact and conjecture on my part, as indicated by the words “I think.” I daresay that I am entitled to this without having to be characterized as putting forth unsupportable claims (like “Obama IS a Muslim”). To those critics here who have taken a mocking tone in commenting thusly on my post — try to remember that there is a difference between thinking something to be the case and claiming absolutely to be the ultimate authority who can define “truth.” On which side are you standing? dafrank(Quote)
Ricardo says:
Actually, what Daniel Pipes says (correctly, from what I understand) is that Obama is an apostate in Muslim eyes. He was raised by a Muslim man but rejects Islam as an adult. The evidence does not prove Obama is a Muslim as Pipes concedes — quite the opposite, in fact.
Pipes concludes, “All this matters, for if Obama once was a Muslim, he is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion who must be executed. Were he elected president of the United States, this status, clearly, would have large potential implications for his relationship with the Muslim world.”
Oh, I see. During the Danish cartoon controversy, we were supposed to uphold freedom of speech regardless of what the Islamic world thinks. But now we are supposed to care what they think when it comes to Obama and his status in Islamic law. Ricardo(Quote)
Andrew J. Lazarus says:
I don’t believe this is correct, insofar as Obama was not an adult when he stopped practicing Islam, and was not responsible for the act. Andrew J. Lazarus(Quote)
Sammy Finkelman says:
It would be whatever name was published in the newspaper in Hawaii by the state of Hawaii, which published them then. Did brth certificates in Hawaii then state race? Sammy Finkelman(Quote)
Sammy Finkelman says:
Obama’s mistake was agreeing to the correction. That only made it sound like he had in fact, said that his faith was Muslim. He had meant of course, his supposed Muslim faith. Obama should have explained what he said but not accepted a correction. Sammy Finkelman(Quote)
Sammy Finkelman says:
He changed his name back to Barack. His family had been using the name Barry for a long, long, time and it apparently appeared that way on documents and public (or school) records. He had actually gone by the name Barry Soetero for a while. Sammy Finkelman(Quote)
L says:
I do, and that is my point. For Obama to be a Muslim, you have to take your actual known facts and combine them with some looney-tunes secret “unknown facts” — it’s the same kind of thing.
Dur, thanks.
Just like the Trig birthers. And then both groups take those known facts and draw some kookoobananas conclusions from them.
You only find it “amusing” because you recognize one of these kookoo bananas theories as being kookoo bananas, while you think the other one has some plausibility. So that’s your issue. L(Quote)
public_defender says:
In the eyes of some, maybe. But I’ve read elsewhere (and heard from a lot of Muslims) that a person must voluntarily choose to be Muslim before it counts. “There is no compulsion in religion” the more moderate Muslims will accurately quote the Quran as saying. Pipes, like many anti-Muslim bigots, takes the quotes from the Quran about what to do during a during a very specific time in a very specific war and applies them to everyday life.
Pipes and other anti-Muslim bigots (including some people posting in this thread) have decided to take Al Qaeda’s side in this theological argument. Unfortunately, adopting the philosophy of those Muslims who hate freedom the most is broader than that. Even the Anti-Defamation League has taken the religious-freedom approach of reactionary Saudi Arabia in a dispute over building a religious community center. Shame on them.
But as to the name thing, geez, I know lots of people that go by nick names, even semi-officially. Married women do this a lot–switching between their maiden and married names as it seems convenient. People with foreign sounding names also sometimes adopt “American” names for every day use. It also seems that some people are bigoted against people with foreign sounding names, which makes it harder to get ahead. This thread provides plenty of evident of that.
This thread has been valuable if for no other reason than to demonstrate that racism and bigotry are alive and well in the United States. public_defender(Quote)
AlbertE. says:
Any child born of a Muslim parent is a Muslim. So says all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence.
Therefore, O is a Muslim. And because you CANNOT break away from Islam, he cannot say he converted or anything like that.
These “ways” of looking at things, he converted, he had nominal exposure, his father was non-practicing, ARE AMERICAN concepts and “ways” of looking at things.
To the Muslim scholar, the ulema, O is a Muslim. AlbertE.(Quote)
1040 says:
and the further perversity here is that daniel pipes is more obsessed about o’s apostasy than the muslim world which he claims to speak for. 1040(Quote)
SkepticalHumanist says:
If Obama were a Muslim, he probably wouldn’t be bombing them so aggressively. SkepticalHumanist(Quote)
Manju says:
o god, just as i’m getting into mocking the rightwing, i’m reminded why i’m a rightwinger. muslims bombing muslims, yeah that never happens. Manju(Quote)
public_defender says:
And Christians NEVER bomb each other. public_defender(Quote)
Manju says:
well, that would be relevant if I were arguing someone out to kill George Tiller & Co couldn’t be christian because... Manju(Quote)
A. Criminal says:
As for the Saudi king: Obama did not “genuflect.” To genuflect, in a literal sense, is to bring at least one knee to the ground,
Oh, but the self-professed mongrel racist (“but we know more about it”) did genuflect in the literal — but not Roman Catholic — sense: “to express a servile attitude.” Sometimes it’s the 1st definition, sometimes the 2nd, depending on the dictionary. “Groveling” is more accurate and less confusing since it refers to attitude rather than the position of the kneecaps.
And since when did Wikipedia become a dictionary? A. Criminal(Quote)
Sarcastro says:
What is with that mongrel thing?! Speaking of, why do they get to use the N-word and not us?! Proof of racism!! Sarcastro(Quote)
Smooth, like a Rhapsody says:
Rachel:
I don’t get your point. (and Sarc, ain’t nobody ever confused me with a liberal, much less a Marxist, but whatever...).
I was saying that, while I don’t care what Obama’s metaphysical leanings are, I am guessing that he is probably like most of the people he has hung around in his adult lifetime–some kind of “agnostic”. I do not mean that as either a compliment or a criticism.
I was also saying that the incessant, compulsive cheese-paring about a candidate’s religious beliefs are not, in my opinion, the hallmark of an advanced culture. Smooth, like a Rhapsody(Quote)
Federale says:
Obama’s school records from Indonesia state that Obama is a Muslim. And he admitted that he attended religious training and attended a mosque with his step-father. Proof positive that Obama was a Muslim. The only other evidence that he converted would be his baptismal records. Those apparently have not been released. But then we would have to ask if the Rev. Wright is a Christian. Federale(Quote)
wolfefan says:
I know this thread is pretty well dead, but I forgot to thank geokster for his response to my question waaaaay upthread. I appreciate the effort and the links. wolfefan(Quote)
leo marvin says:
These threads never die. They just pass on to the Great Flame War Archive in The Sky (subcontracted indexing and storage for which Google handles at its massive data facility in The Dalles, Oregon). leo marvin(Quote)
Pauli says:
All this is true; the HE article is silly. However it’s pretty clear that Obama is using the doubts of his Christian faith and friendliness toward Islamic ideals as advantages with the Muslim voting bloc. Muslims know he’s not a Muslim–he doesn’t pray 5 times a day, etc. But he comes across as someone who is far less willing to stand up as a Christian or American against anything coming from Islam. Anyone offended by this attitude probably didn’t vote for him anyway, so he’s safe from backlash. Pauli(Quote)