wolfefan: I know this thread is pretty well dead

These threads never die. They just pass on to the Great Flame War Archive in The Sky (subcontracted indexing and storage for which Google handles at its massive data facility in The Dalles, Oregon).

I don’t get your point. (and Sarc, ain’t nobody ever confused me with a liberal, much less a Marxist, but whatever…).

I was saying that, while I don’t care what Obama’s metaphysical leanings are, I am guessing that he is probably like most of the people he has hung around in his adult lifetime–some kind of “agnostic”. I do not mean that as either a compliment or a criticism.

I was also saying that the incessant, compulsive cheese-paring about a candidate’s religious beliefs are not, in my opinion, the hallmark of an advanced culture.

A. Criminal: self-professed mongrel racist

What is with that mongrel thing?! Speaking of, why do they get to use the N-word and not us?! Proof of racism!!

Oh, but the self-professed mongrel racist (“but we know more about it”) did genuflect in the literal – but not Roman Catholic – sense: “to express a servile attitude.” Sometimes it’s the 1st definition, sometimes the 2nd, depending on the dictionary. “Groveling” is more accurate and less confusing since it refers to attitude rather than the position of the kneecaps.

And since when did Wikipedia become a dictionary?

public_defender: And Christians NEVER bomb each other.

well, that would be relevant if I were arguing someone out to kill George Tiller & Co couldn’t be christian because…

Manju: o god, just as i’m getting into mocking the rightwing, i’m reminded why i’m a rightwinger. muslims bombing muslims, yeah that never happens.

And Christians NEVER bomb each other.

SkepticalHumanist: If Obama were a Muslim, he probably wouldn’t be bombing them so aggressively

o god, just as i’m getting into mocking the rightwing, i’m reminded why i’m a rightwinger. muslims bombing muslims, yeah that never happens.

Ricardo: Pipes concludes, “All this matters, for if Obama once was a Muslim, he is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion who must be executed. Were he elected president of the United States, this status, clearly, would have large potential implications for his relationship with the Muslim world.”

and the further perversity here is that daniel pipes is more obsessed about o’s apostasy than the muslim world which he claims to speak for.

Therefore, O is a Muslim. And because you CANNOT break away from Islam, he cannot say he converted or anything like that.

These “ways” of looking at things, he converted, he had nominal exposure, his father was non-practicing, ARE AMERICAN concepts and “ways” of looking at things.

To the Muslim scholar, the ulema, O is a Muslim.

Ricardo: Actually, what Daniel Pipes says (correctly, from what I understand) is that Obama is an apostate in Muslim eyes. He was raised by a Muslim man but rejects Islam as an adult. The evidence does not prove Obama is a Muslim as Pipes concedes — quite the opposite, in fact.

In the eyes of some, maybe. But I’ve read elsewhere (and heard from a lot of Muslims) that a person must voluntarily choose to be Muslim before it counts. “There is no compulsion in religion” the more moderate Muslims will accurately quote the Quran as saying. Pipes, like many anti-Muslim bigots, takes the quotes from the Quran about what to do during a during a very specific time in a very specific war and applies them to everyday life.

Pipes and other anti-Muslim bigots (including some people posting in this thread) have decided to take Al Qaeda’s side in this theological argument. Unfortunately, adopting the philosophy of those Muslims who hate freedom the most is broader than that. Even the Anti-Defamation League has taken the religious-freedom approach of reactionary Saudi Arabia in a dispute over building a religious community center. Shame on them.

But as to the name thing, geez, I know lots of people that go by nick names, even semi-officially. Married women do this a lot–switching between their maiden and married names as it seems convenient. People with foreign sounding names also sometimes adopt “American” names for every day use. It also seems that some people are bigoted against people with foreign sounding names, which makes it harder to get ahead. This thread provides plenty of evident of that.

This thread has been valuable if for no other reason than to demonstrate that racism and bigotry are alive and well in the United States.

Rachel:
Well, I suppose if you are willing to compare actual “known facts” that all parties are willing to agree on v/s “known facts” that require a mountain of “unknown facts” to be kept secret by nearly everyone in the State of Alaska….then I suppose you have a point.

I do, and that is my point. For Obama to be a Muslim, you have to take your actual known facts and combine them with some looney-tunes secret “unknown facts” — it’s the same kind of thing.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Dur, thanks.

You don’t have to agree with the writer’s conclusions to acknowledge he is working with “known facts” we are all aware of.

Just like the Trig birthers. And then both groups take those known facts and draw some kookoobananas conclusions from them.

I still find it amusing that someone who considers himself a serious blogger would compare Sullivan’s Trig conclusions as an example in this case to complain about poor journalistic standards.Or should I say journolist-ic standards?

You only find it “amusing” because you recognize one of these kookoo bananas theories as being kookoo bananas, while you think the other one has some plausibility. So that’s your issue.

Angus:
How can someone “change their name” to what is actually their name. His name has been Barack since he was born.

He changed his name back to Barack. His family had been using the name Barry for a long, long, time and it apparently appeared that way on documents and public (or school) records. He had actually gone by the name Barry Soetero for a while.

Angus:
How can someone “change their name” to what is actually their name. His name has been Barack since he was born.

It would be whatever name was published in the newspaper in Hawaii by the state of Hawaii, which published them then. Did brth certificates in Hawaii then state race?

Ricardo: All this matters, for if Obama once was a Muslim, he is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion who must be executed.

I don’t believe this is correct, insofar as Obama was not an adult when he stopped practicing Islam, and was not responsible for the act.

Ernst Blofeld: Of course to Western and Christian eyes this is not proof of Obama’s Islamic faith, and his later profession of Christian faith would make him a Christian. The Islamic criteria are not the same.

Actually, what Daniel Pipes says (correctly, from what I understand) is that Obama is an apostate in Muslim eyes. He was raised by a Muslim man but rejects Islam as an adult. The evidence does not prove Obama is a Muslim as Pipes concedes — quite the opposite, in fact.

Pipes concludes, “All this matters, for if Obama once was a Muslim, he is now what Islamic law calls a murtadd (apostate), an ex-Muslim converted to another religion who must be executed. Were he elected president of the United States, this status, clearly, would have large potential implications for his relationship with the Muslim world.”

Oh, I see. During the Danish cartoon controversy, we were supposed to uphold freedom of speech regardless of what the Islamic world thinks. But now we are supposed to care what they think when it comes to Obama and his status in Islamic law.

If you were more interested to find out if what I said was true about Muslim attitudes, you might have devoted about 75 seconds to a search of the internet to find this (one of many examples available) poll on the internet:

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/361.php?lb=btvoc&pnt=361&nid=&id

which quite supports precisely what I said about Muslim attitudes towards the Unites States. This and other bits of scientific polling only support the intuition of a vast swath of the world which saw Muslims around the world dancing in the streets after 9/11/2001 and the countless declarations of Jihad and Islamic triumphalism over America made every week in the Arab and Muslim world. I am sorry if this makes you too uncomfortable to acknowledge, but it is, unfortunately, true.

As to whether left wing academics have a distaste for the United States as a historical entity, I am at a disadvantage in trying to bring forth a particualr poll, as, of course, no one at a university would dare undertake such a poll and no one would want to bother to spend the necessary money to conduct one with a private polling firm for the simple reason that the answers are so obvious and overwhelmingly on display. It is well documented that college professors are at least overwhelmingly liberal in their political outlook and that the drivers of curriculum, especially in the social sciences, lean overwhelmingly to the socialist and Marxist side. And to true Socialists and Marxists, the U.S. has been “boogeyman number one” since at least sometime in the 1920′s or 30′s. Look at the curriculum of any major university outside of the hard sciences and it will be quite easily illustrated for you. The extreme left-wing radicals of the 60′s have marched through the academy and have conquered it nearly completely.

Obama’s own career, before national politics, illustrates nothing but the trappings of the left wing academy and activism of the community organizer, itself a term of art created to describe what would otherwise be clearly and accurately labeld as a hard-core socialist missionary. Unashamedly following Alinsky, and teaching the Alinsky drill to his charges is a pretty good indicator. “Fundamentally transforming America” meant something, as did his standing pat for 20 years on his personally chosen and much praised, raving and racist anti-American pastor Wright. And don’t forget the “tell” of his own wife in her dreadful Madison, Wisconsin speech in 2008: she said, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change.” So, if Michelle was proud only for the first time in her life, what must have both the Obamas felt before his ascendancy in advance of him being elected?

To Arkady – look up the word “deconstructionist.” Apparently you need to come to some understanding of what it has wrought in the political sphere. You will find in it one of the underpinnings of the left-wing academic critique of the entire American project, its economy, its social system and cohesion, its culture and its history as told to past generations. This is quite enough to label it as an academic theme and pose associated with the general dislike of the United States as most people understand it.

Last, my concluding paragraph was simply my opinion, arrived at by my experience and judgment, based on a combination of fact and conjecture on my part, as indicated by the words “I think.” I daresay that I am entitled to this without having to be characterized as putting forth unsupportable claims (like “Obama IS a Muslim”). To those critics here who have taken a mocking tone in commenting thusly on my post – try to remember that there is a difference between thinking something to be the case and claiming absolutely to be the ultimate authority who can define “truth.” On which side are you standing?

a Christian who is a 20 year believer in the Rev White’s racist, antisemitic tripe.

Look, its just religion. You’re supposed to treat it like the Special Olympics. Kennedy wasn’t beholden to the pope, Romney doesn’t share Mormonism’s racist roots, and Lieberman doesn’t think he’s one of the chosen people.

The Prince is supposed to be religious enough so his peeps will identify, but not so religious that he believes all the kooky shit. Our regime was designed to defang religion by allowing it maximum freedom while simultaneously curtailing its role in serious state affairs. The Founders wanted to relegate it to matters of opinion, since if religion possessed any deeper truth that could be known, its unclear why that truth shouldn’t be legislated.

By taking Rev Wright so seriously you’re undermining the American project. You think Reagan actully followed Falwell? He gave the him some crumbs, basically words but litlle action on abortion, and kept the savages in line. Remember, “special olympics” (but don’t say it out loud, we don’t want to patronize). Get with the program, please.

Rachel: funny how, despite all of that evidence, no one got worked into a lather over the commenters who determined the evidence concludes he is an agnostic rather than a Christian

I think the agnostic stuff is a little different, in that it represents an historical awareness of the fact that, to paraphrase Machiavelli, while the prince must never be too religious (because excessive religious sentiment will prevent him from doing the cruel things necessary to stay in power) the prince must always appear to be religious…since he will then have the goodwill of the people.

The amount of evidence Obama is not Muslim is rather large. Obama’s own words, going to church, having a dog, eating pork. One needs some serious sample-bias to say Muslim

.

funny how, despite all of that evidence, no one got worked into a lather over the commenters who determined the evidence concludes he is an agnostic rather than a Christian who is a 20 year believer in the Rev White’s racist, antisemitic tripe. Oh that’s right, he was (not)watching Snookie on his blackberry during the service and had no idea what Wright was saying.

When Kopel was making the case that the Generals comments were more like a blog post than research paper, he was on solid ground. It was clearly an opinion piece, much like the same as those commenters who say they believe he is an agnostic or atheist.

But it is indeed irony when Kopel compares Sullivans deranged rantings to the generals use of Obama’s actual known background to complain aout poor journalistic standards.

It’s not about whether or not the general made his case. It’s about the irony of the comparison. Unless of course Kopel finds Sullivan Trig theory to be something other than totally deranged….. in which case … it is still pretty ironic he’s complaining about journalistic standards.

Sorry, don't think they differ.

The amount of evidence Obama is not Muslim is rather large. Obama's own words, going to church, having a dog, eating pork. One needs some serious sample-bias to say Muslim.

Just like Sully needs to be crazy to see some photos and ignore all evidence to the contrary.]

Like how you acted as though Andrew Sullivan’s madness meant liberals couldn’t mock the Muslim thing

No, my point was: Comparing this writers use of actual known facts and actions to conclude that Obama may have Muslim sympathies – to Sullivan’s madness (as you say) – puts Dave Kopel in a poor position to complain about poor journalistic standards. You can agree or disagree with the generals conclusions. But for Kopel to mock the general for leaping to Muslim is no less ridiculous than Kopels leap to Sullivan.

If I say, Julie was wears a cross and sings when she hears church bells, and that is a true statement, then it is not freaking outrageous to think she might have some Christian sympathies. But to then compare someone who might voice that thought to someone who is bat-s crazy like Sullivan is, well, not a serious journalist.

While Obama attended a Catholic school from first through third grade, he was listed as Muslim in the registration form. In the public school he attended teachers also recall him as being listed as a Muslim, and in his autobiography he mentions attending a Koranic studies class, which would mean he was enrolled as a Muslim.

Daniel Pipes rounds up assorted press reports on Obama’s school religious status here: http://www.danielpipes.org/5544/barack-obamas-muslim-childhood . He responds to some criticisms here: http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=29425

Lolo Sotero, Obama’s stepfather in Indonesia, was a rather indifferent Muslim, but a Muslim, and attended Friday prayers on an irregular basis.

Of course to Western and Christian eyes this is not proof of Obama’s Islamic faith, and his later profession of Christian faith would make him a Christian. The Islamic criteria are not the same.

Tea Party Tax Protestor aka Racist: He can’t be a Muslim. He’d have to worship something other than himself.

not true. he could be allah

Word of wisdome for the day: Don’t be too quick to jump up and scream at the umpire everytime your pitcher throws a wild one. It just makes you look like you need glasses :-)

And you think claiming to like bacon will make us think you’re not Muslim? Nice try.

Shh. I don’t want my Jewish wife and kids to find out.