The Volokh Conspiracy

Appalling Service from Dell:

Dell gets the dubious honor of having given me what's likely the most ridiculously bad customer service experience I've had in years. I have a simple problem: The hard drive for my Dell notebook crashed after my computer was out of warranty. I bought a new hard drive, but now I need a boot disk for the Microsoft XP Professional operating system that I originally bought loaded onto my computer. I suspect this happens very often; there ought to be a standard procedure for it.

I've now spent over an hour trying to get this straightened out — almost all of it navigating through the voice-mail menus, waiting on hold, or being transferred to some other department. I got cut off during the transfer process twice. I've probably talked to eight different people. I was transferred to spare parts, who told me I had to talk to customer support, who then tried to transfer me back to spare parts, except at that point the call was cut off.

I was eventually told that I had to re-buy the operating system — not a good position for Dell to take, but if that's what it takes, fine. I was transfered to spare parts, who took my service tag, and told me they had to transfer me somewhere else. Where did they transfer me to? The same voice-mail menu I came from.

OK, I thought, but at least the person who transferred me to spare parts gave me a part number. Maybe I could find it online. Nope, the spare parts search form online tells me there's no such part number. And the online chat system that they suggested on the phone as a substitute for waiting on hold? I did get through to someone in a few minutes; and what did she tell me? Call spare parts. I eventually got through to customer care, and asked to talk to a supervisor. I was put on hold for a while — and then disconnected.

Now maybe all computer manufacturers are like that, but I'm hoping they aren't. If you can recommend some companies that actually provide decent customer service, please post the answer in the comments. I'm thinking that rather than dealing with Dell again, for this or for anything else, I should probably just get a new system from a company that's actually interested in pleasing its customers. But in any event, folks, be warned about what dealing with Dell can sometimes be like.

UPDATE: I tried one more time, and finally got somewhere. I called the sales line and said that I was a customer who also had a popular Weblog, and that I wanted to speak to a supervisor. Why?, they asked. Because I had posted something critical of the company and wanted to give them a chance to respond. (Indeed, if Dell wants to send me a response, I'll be glad to post it.) I got a supervisor, and told him the same thing. OK, he said, but before I transfer you to someone, can we try to solve the problem? Sure, I said. I told him the whole story; he figured out whom to call and transfered me to that person without making me wander through more voice-mail jungle; I talked to the person; and finally, finally got a chance to buy a new copy of Windows XP Pro (the software that they knew I had bought with my original system) for a $100 discount off their $309 standard price.

Now I wouldn't have been happy with having to pay an extra $209 even if they'd made it easy for me. But why did it have to take me nearly two hours of telephone time to get to the point where I could actually pay Dell some money?

Finally, I should say that through all this the people I talked to at Dell (when I could talk to them) were always quite polite. I'm sure they wanted to help. It's just that (except for the ones I noted in the update) they and the system in which they were operating were for some reason not actually able to help.

Dave Hardy (mail) (www):
Apple.

(Grin). At least I know they send you the system CDs with the computer.
11.23.2005 3:37pm
Steve:
I had a similar problem with my Compaq (which all savvy people say not to buy). When my computer arrived, there was no XP disc enclosed; I assumed it was just a mistake. When my hard drive flipped out, and I was unable to install Windows due to the lack of a disk, they told me it was a feature rather than a bug. Apparently, their practice is that instead of giving you a disk, they create a "recovery partition" on your hard drive that contains all the needed files - that is, unless the hard drive is so badly damaged that the recovery partition is inaccessible, as happened in my case.

Then they told me I was at fault for not creating my own recovery CD, as it apparently suggests in the manual. They might be 100% correct; but I have never burned a CD in my life, and if it recommends on page 138 of the manual that you burn your own recovery CD, I guess I missed that somehow. When they finally agreed to send me a recovery disk, it turned out to be a 6-CD set. "Are you saying you guys really expected me to go to the store, buy 6 blank CDs, and create my own set of 6 recovery disks, just in case?" Why yes, they do expect that, as it turns out.

The actual customer service was above average, but the corporate policies were pretty bizarre. Of course, as everyone tells me, there's a reason why Compaqs are cheaper.
11.23.2005 3:41pm
Fellow PC user:
Lesson Learned... next time buy an Apple.
11.23.2005 3:41pm
Ken Willis (mail):
I had a DELL laptop that was worthless. Never could get any help from DELL, and I bought the DELL because I'd heard such awful things about Gateway.

Now I have a Sony, it has always worked fine. I have had to call customer support for a couple of minor things and all went smoothly.

With Sony you have to write your customer number on a piece of tape on the bottom of the laptop because if you lose it you're toast.
11.23.2005 3:45pm
Frank Drackmann (mail):
DUDE!!!!you got a dell!!!! those idiotic commercials convinced me never to buy one of their products
11.23.2005 3:47pm
Taeyoung J. (mail):
The operating system? All my Dells (and I am on my third now -- 2 laptops and a desktop system) have come with the operating system, the system disks, and pretty much everything else I could need. The OS disk is usually bootable as well, once you set the computer to boot from the CD-Rom.

With customer support, also, I've had a pretty good experience. My laptop harddrive burned out (kind of -- I have a little connecter to link it to a normal bus, and it was still readable there) and I got a replacement shipped to me immediately. Admittedly, that was when it was within warranty, but still -- customer service was fairly good. At the time, I was quite vexed (because I knew what the problem was, but they made me run a series of diagnostic tests), but in retrospect, it was only three or four hours, if that, and I got my replacement in about a week.

But then, that was clearly a bunch of Indians on the other end of the line. Have they brought tech support back to the US or something?
11.23.2005 3:48pm
Senor Chumbawumba (mail):
If you're unable to switch away from Wintel for whatever reason, give the Thinkpad a shot. I'm not sure how Lenovo is (IBM sold their Thinkpad division), but they have a great reputation for business support. I made sure to order my current laptop with the quick-turnaround service before I started school. It's been a trooper of a laptop. Nice, hard case.
11.23.2005 3:49pm
Ken Willis (mail):
Just looked in the box my Sony laptop came in and it contains both application and system recovery CDs. I did not have to make my own.
11.23.2005 3:50pm
Nobody Special:
Newegg.com sells OEM copies of Windows. It'll save you a ton of dinero.
11.23.2005 3:51pm
Taeyoung J. (mail):
As far as the Dell OS disk and system recovery CD thing goes, I should also note that my earliest Dell laptop (still operational, actually, although the battery is shot) was from 1999 or so, and it came with a bootable OS Disk (Win98) and two system disks, one with all the specialised drivers and the other with all the applications.

If you lose those, I suppose you're in trouble. But I've re-installed the entire OS on that oldest system several times (for each new harddrive), and it's gone without a hitch.
11.23.2005 3:52pm
Adam Steiner (mail):
IBM/Lenovo Thinkpads are great. First, they're built to take a beating, and are thin and light.

Second, their customer support is second to none. Based in Atlanta, the support is well educated and quick. I haven't waited on hold for more than 3 minutes before speaking to someone. After a friend's hard drive crashed, I called, at 4pm, and had a new drive with installation CDs, on my doorstep by 10am the next morning.
11.23.2005 3:58pm
twwren:
Dell's business model has morphed over the last several years to serving corporate clients. My company buys exclusively from Dell and we get great prices and service but we buy many, many computers. They will sell you an individual computer over the web but their margins are very small and they can't or won't invest much of that margin in customer service because they really don't want the business.
11.23.2005 3:59pm
Dem:
I agree with the people suggesting Apple. In all seriousness, unless you have a particular need for a PC, I'd suggest making the switch. I'm a lifelong Apple user and have always had good experiences with them. The one time they screwed up, they sent me some free RAM to make up for it. In college I worked at the computer lab doing software troubleshooting for both PCs and Macs and that really cemented for me how much better Apple is in terms of both stability and customer service. Students with PCs would come in all the time with basic problems after calling their customer service and getting totally useless and/or wrong advice. That sort of stuff is unheard of with Apple customer service. Plus, if you take your Apple to an Apple store, they will often fix it even after the warranty has expried.
11.23.2005 4:09pm
Phil3333:
First, as a PC turned Apple user, let me tell you that these kinds of things do not happen w. Apple. It's the best technology purchase of my life (my Powerbook)

But enough preaching. That is pathetic by Dell. They should have included a CD with the install and there is ZERO reason for you to re-buy. Microsoft allows you to re-install XP if you get a new hard drive. I would suggest speaking to a manager.
11.23.2005 4:11pm
Misha Tseytlin (mail):
The day my Dell laptop broke so badly that they told me it would cost as much to repair it as get a new computer was the happiest day of my life. I went and bought a compaq and will never buy a Dell product for the rest of my life. What you experienced was par for the course with them.
11.23.2005 4:14pm
Eric:
I second IBM. They have the best customer service. They will pay overnight shipping both ways, fix any problem, takes about 3 days total. (and you get the disks)
11.23.2005 4:15pm
Toxic (mail):
I've had a dell. I have to say that my experience was the exact opposite of his. They diagnosed the problem and then set up a home technician to take care of it for me, or otherwise immediately overnighted the part to me. I think the customer service is the best part about Dell, because this laptop did not impress with its reliability.
11.23.2005 4:18pm
Humble Law Student:
I've had two dell laptops and have always gotten great service from them. Dell has always been good to me as long as you are still under warranty. If you aren't, then you are pretty much on your own.

Important Note: The newer Dell laptops don't ship with the OS disk. You have to specially request it. I asked for it the day after my laptop arrived and they overnight all of the software. It's not too hard, just takes a call.
11.23.2005 4:18pm
Andy Freeman (mail):
HP got on my "don't buy list" with their no restore disk policy and computers that broke a lot. Compaq just got on it with their response to a computer whose restore disk didn't work. They said "those disks never worked, but we'll sell you one that does".

I've had great luck with E-Machines. They don't break and the restore disks work. E-M was recently bought by Gateway.
11.23.2005 4:21pm
Sisyphus:
Dell is a funny company about customer service, in my experience. They have an awful telephone customer service system, as Prof. Volokh experienced. However, once I actually got to someone, they sent a tech out the next day to fix a problem under warranty, much like Toxic's experience.

The advice of others here seems best to me - use the OEM CDs if you can find them. If not, buy XP cheaply somewhere.
11.23.2005 4:24pm
Noel Magee:
The relationship between computer companies and their small customers (individuals) has largely morphed into an adversarial model over the last ten years or so. Partly due to the decline in margins in that part of the business. Apple does seem to be the least affected of the (semi-)major players. The others have phone trees and policies that clearly benefit only the business, not the customer.
If you don't want to go OS/X, the only reasonable alternative is a good white-box (local, not chain) store that does support or doing it yourself. The former is much akin to the storied search for an honest mechanic and the latter may, or may not, be something you want to spend your time on.
The big guys (Dell, HP, Gateway, Lenovo) are really only interested in large volume business sales where questions about an individual machine incident would get filtered by in-house tech support before coming back to them. One thing that may help is to always buy a "business" model, not a consumer model from whoever you deal with.
Newegg plus Linux offer something of an alternative but, as I noted, you might not wish to spend your time there. Not wanting to play tech support is a perfectly reasonable decision in many circumstances. Caveat Emptor.
11.23.2005 4:25pm
Richard Careaga:
Here is an occasion for Chicago school inquiry: what is the Pareto optimal [whatever] intersection of sales price and post-sale service? Cf. airline fares/service.

I've bought Dell for years and years even knowing that the service experience would not meet my desired standard. Why? It's usually been the best price for my specifications.

I've been very happy with IBM service, the couple of times I've needed it. But I paid up to get laptops with my specs.

Recently, an upgrade fisaco with my work computer reminded me how exasperated I've become with Microsoft XP. Why am I spending all this time and attention span dealing with this at work and at home? So I unplugged a Dell at home and replaced it with a Mac mini. No muss. No fuss. It worked out-of-box with no configuration effort worth describing. Tons of software features. I'm not even sure I'll load Microsoft Word.

I waited for Windows 95, then NT, then XP. It's been 10 years. I wasn't going to wait for Vista. It was time to move on.
11.23.2005 4:31pm
Nigel (mail):
Dell's product and customer service are both atrocious. I bought a Dell laptop 16 months ago to start law school and have had 4 borderline fatal problems where my computer was MIA for weeks at a time. Almost everybody I know in school (certainly a VERY strong majority) has had similar fatal problems.

Their customer service has been just as bad. I often wait on hold for hours at a time, only to have some Indian technician (I always get a kick out of them saying their name is Ben or Andrew or something) tell me to reformat my drive (I understand that reformatting may often solve my problem, but its certainly not an optimal solution, and, in my opinion, should be a "last resort" solution). Apparently, their idea of customer service is to just say "reformat the drive," and nothing else. And this is after I paid $400 for the "idiot-proof" warranty, which they have, by the way, refused to recognize.

The last straw was earlier this year when my hard drive crashed, and I lost all my notes from school, including many papers, outlines, photos, etc. from which I had not backed up for several months (I know, that's my fault, but still). Customer service couldn't have cared less and refused to recognize my warranty. About 2 months later and dozens of hours on hold, I FINALLY got my new hard drive and everything is up and running again (no thanks to them. In the end, I gave up and figured out how to do everything myself).

In the meantime, I've given up on Dell, bought a compaq laptop (not the greatest reputation, I know, but I couldn't afford much, plus their PC got me through 4 years of undergrad relatively unscathed), and my now-repaired Dell has been sitting on the side ever since. So far, the compaq has been fine.

This is the abridged, family-friendly version of my problems with Dell. Trust me, I could go on for HOURS ranting about my problems with them.

From my experience with other law students and several friends who worked at computer help desks, I would recommend either Sony or IBM, although I have no personal experience with either. My mom's cheap Toshiba laptop is almost 8 years old and is still chugging along.

At this point, I refuse to buy another Dell, my family (after seeing what I've been through) have also swore them off, and I take whatever opportunity possible to vent my anger about them and warn people to never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever buy Dell. Never.
11.23.2005 4:31pm
PersonFromPorlock:
Well, at least Dell gets an object lesson in why you don't pick a fight with somebody who buys his electrons by the pound.

But why do you even bother with a mass-market computer? It's no trick to assemble a PC from quality parts and the end product is almost always highly reliable. For an OS, W2K (retail disk) is available on eBay for $65 or so and later OSs aren't that much more.

If you don't want to spend the time, well, that's what college students are for.
11.23.2005 4:33pm
krosenstein:
I had a similar Dell customer service goat-rope when a monitor I bought didn't work right. I finally wrote a letter to their VP in charge of customer affairs and received a telephone call within a week. My problem, however, wasn't as critical as your.
11.23.2005 4:34pm
Brett Bellmore (mail):
HP got on *MY* no buy list a few years back, when I had a flaky video card. Customer service lead me through a series of diagnostics, pretty pointless, (I knew the card was flaky, I'm an EE for goodness sakes!) but reasonable from their perspective. NOT reasonable was the last "diagnostic" they wanted to run before admitting it was a hardware problem: Reformating my hard drive.
11.23.2005 4:47pm
MikeC&F (mail) (www):
I've had good luck with IBM.
11.23.2005 4:47pm
vintner:
IBM/Lenovo ThinkPad, for sure. I've bought eight of them over the last six years. When one motherboard needed attention, ThinkPad airshipped a new machine from the US to me in London where I needed it. Very few problems, and outstanding customer service. (A T43p with 1600x1200 display will change your life.)
11.23.2005 4:51pm
Sigivald (mail):
Perhaps it's a laptop thing; my Dimension tower I got two (I think) years ago came with OS media and the like, and it's been rock solid.

I do heartily second Apple on general principles; I actually don't know what their service is like, having never had to use it in 15 years+ of owning Macs. (Not that I've never had a problem in all that time, but nothing so major I had to deal with Apple rather than a local dealer. Not an option with Dell, of course.)
11.23.2005 4:58pm
Glenn:
My father has a terrible time with customer support, but when I called on his behalf, the service was fine and the problem solved within a few minutes.

The same thing happend with my sister. She claimed a nightmarish customer support experience. I called with her and it was relatively smooth.

I am formulating the theory that the less you know about technical issues, the worse your support response will be. If the person on the other end of the line thinks you know what you are talking about, they become very intent on solving your problem. If they think you know nothing, they treat you with relative contempt and become easily flustered.

When I traveled abroad, I noticed similar behavior in foreign countries. If you made an honest attempt to speak their language (even badly), they tend to treat you better than if you don't. This seems particlarly true in France, but is noticeable even in Arab countries. Maybe the same principle applies to computer company technical support - try to speak techie with them and they may be more helpful.

Unfortunately, I can offer little anecdotal support, except for calls I have made on behalf of others who found the task too daunting. For myself, I have never made a service call. I have always "rolled my own" from the case to the operating system since the DOS days.
11.23.2005 5:00pm
Ravi (mail):
I almost exactly the same problem with Gateway six years ago. I needed a replacement NT 4.0 CD to install it on my new hard drive and my original was scratched and neither Gateway nor Microsoft had any procedure through which I could get a replacement. I ended up buying a replacement at CompUSA. My opinion is that Microsoft encourages these sorts of problems in their contracts with OEMs, so that they can get the extra revenue from the occasional user forced to buy a replacement. Consider the (relatively) recent move to PCs that don't even come with install CDs. Persronally, my response was to switch to Linux (for my personal computing) so that I'd never be in that position again.
11.23.2005 5:05pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
My father had an even worse customer service experience with Dell after buying a desktop that was DOA. On the other hand, since then, his computer has worked fine, I've had two Dells over seven years and zero problems, and my wife's Dell is two years old with zero problems. So, their desktops at least have worked well for us, and we haven't had to use customer service.
11.23.2005 5:14pm
bubba (mail) (www):
my coal oil dell wurks reel good! an it only burn a pint a week!
11.23.2005 5:29pm
QuarryBay (mail):
If you want to get away from the giant bureaucracy but still get good pricing and not be locked into a very small business, I have had very good customer experiences, after sales service and low costs for systems I have purchased from Monarch Computer systems (www.monarchcomputer.com). They are just moving into notebook (which are much less configurable than desktops) and may not be an option for that area but for desktops they have a good selection of pre-assembled/configured desktops or a very wide selection of parts that you can have them assemble if you know what you want AND get good prices. Warranty support and onsite support is also cheap (as cheap or cheaper than Dell). In my experience, you can get to someone that knows what they are talking about technically, can see your order and history and can authorize Return Merchandise and send out a new part by the second level - usually within 15 minutes.
11.23.2005 5:29pm
Kevin Murphy (mail) (www):
Strange. In the systems I recently bought from Dell they shipped the software for all installed programs on CD. This has been my experience in the past as well. I have however, taken to collecting all such from employees, as the main problem when this kind of thing happens is that no one knows where that CD they got 2 years ago is.

It also helps to buy the upgraded service contract.

The only gripe I really have with Dell is the lack of AMD processors. But most of the machines I get from them are quite good, which is the opposite of my experience with HP.
11.23.2005 5:29pm
dick thompson (mail):
I bought a Systemax built to order computer from Tiger Direct about 2 years ago. It came with the system backup disks, the system recovery program disks and has had zero problems and I use it about 10 hours per day at least. I called them with one question when I set it up as I am not mechanical at all. The tech took me through the process over the phone in 5 minutes and everything has been fine since. To top it off the computer is an AMD 64 bit 3.0 and cost me fully built with lots of extras only about $750. I would buy another in a heart beat. They also have the fast intel machines for close to the same price. I could not be happier. I have all the software copies that were loaded to the computer and full instructions on how to reload if necessary. They even included the software to reload from the beginning or from any of the backups. I can take a backup in about 5 minutes and be all set for whatever I want.
11.23.2005 5:30pm
Defending the Indefensible:
Better off IMHO to go with a smaller system builder like Monarch Computer. You have a lot more control over what you're buying and the folks who built the system are the same folks who support it, so you're not just getting some outsourced script-reading support from India or wherever.
11.23.2005 5:32pm
DCRob (mail):
I had a similar problem with Dell's telephone service when one of my GPS software CD's arrived broken. The nightmare of dysfunctional automated telephone prompts, unanswered phone lines, and circular buck-passing was genuinely Kafkaesque. Unless they get their act together, I doubt I'll be making any computer purchases from Dell in the foreseeable future.
11.23.2005 5:34pm
Hatch (mail) (www):
I bought a Dell desktop two years ago. Customer Service was atrocious. Not only were they unhelpful, but they always pronounced my homestate as "R-Kansas".

I bought a 12" Powerbook G4 three weeks ago. I weep daily because I did not go with an Apple computer years ago. "Switch" is the wrong verb to describe my move to Apple. "Defect" is more more appropriate. I defected from the cold, grey, sullen life of a Windows user to the fresh, creative, and free life of Democracy OS X.
11.23.2005 5:34pm
Richard Blaine (mail):
Apple. You <i>never</i> hear these kind of complaints from Mac users!
11.23.2005 5:35pm
Mercutio (mail):
As someone who worked for Dell tech support for a year, Gateway for two, and am now doing dial-up technical support for a regional ISP, I'd like to provide what I hope will be regarded as useful insight into the field in particular.

First of all: keep in mind who, exactly, you are dealing with. You know what the techs working the phones make? Aroudn ten bucks an hour. (If you're talking to someone in one of the mammoth Texas call centers, they're making around eight.) Know how qualified you need to be to HAVE a job doing that? You can basically get the job by being able to tell the different versions of Windows apart and doing maybe a week of training in which you'll be taught to use their data-entry tools. You might at any given time be talking to a total tech guru who is just marking time in this job until he gets his degree, or a 40 year old ex-bank teller who snapped up the job because he got laid off and has experience in 'customer service' but barely knows how to work his phone and couldn't identify the difference between TCP/IP and netBEUI to save his life. So be aware of that.

Second of all, there is NO unified troubleshooting or responce procedure. None whatsoever. Every tech you talk to will have his own slightly different way of doing things, and will be making his own judgement on who and where you need to be sent to. Assuming they know what they're talking about; a lot of the time we did NOT, especially with a non-standard call (about 80% of what the people on the Dell desk are delaing with are people bitching about spyware.)

Also be aware that the FFR (the full-format reinstall, in Gatewayspeak) is widely regarded as the universal fix-all for weird-ass thorny issues that confuse a tech. We CAN and WILL reach straight for that big gun if at all possible.

Regarding Eugene's specific problem; yeah, you bought a CONSUMER Dell, didn't you? Dell started (and Gateway began copying them in the fall of 2004 as an experiment, which as far as I know they're still doing) doing the 'we don't provide you with a Windows disc, instead you get a hidden partition on the drive and the manual (which we KNOW none of our cusotmers read, but that's not our problem, ha ha, RTFM n00bcakes) instructs you on how to burn a backup' thing. A -business- model Dell will include a full -OEM- copy of Windows on a friendly purple disc. IIRC, some consumer models might still have the disc, but by and large, no.

Another thing to be aware of; that tech you're talking to? He hates you. He hates you a LOT. This isn't neccessarily because of anything you've done, but we talk to people eight hours a day, and a lot of them are jerks, and even MORE of them are stupid (not just ignorant; ignorant we can deal with, I mean flat-out STUPID) and it engenders the sort of towering hatred of humanity you usually only find in career retail employees. If you've got a weird problem, if you've got something he has no diea how to fix, if yu're mean or take an aggressive tone with him, or if his LAST call was bad... he'll find a way to get rid of you. He will.

Basically, it doesn't matter what PC company you buy from; your customer service is going to be HUGELY hit and miss. You might get a snappy, helpful tech imemdiatly who diagnoses and fixes your problem instantly, or you might be stuck in transfer, hold-queue, ignorant-tech, ring-around-the-rosy HELL for hours and hours on end. It's a horrible thing, both for the consumers and the techs, but that's the nature of the business model.

I hope SOMEONE found that information useful, or at least insightful. :)
11.23.2005 5:40pm
PC Apostate:
I'll add my two cents... Apple has been fantastic for me (the Genius Bar is a lifesaver) and some organization that has apparently been deemed quoteworthy by the MSM recently rated Apple highest in customer satisfaction, I believe.
11.23.2005 5:40pm
Bryon:
The practice of giving you a "recovery partition" instead of a real OS installation disk is one of the crappier recent trends. Encouraged by Microsoft, of course, because it makes it a lot harder for the OS software to propagate to other owners or a new PC (both illegally *and* legally) so they can sell more software. MS would love for their OS to be a transient thing you had to repurchase every time you installed it, if they could get away with that.

I had wondered what happened to people with recovery partitions if/when their hard disk dies beyond recovery. We now know the answer: they're SOL. You and your PC are legally licensed to use the OS; there's no reason that Dell can't provide you recovery disks now (or couldn't have provided them with your system). While Dell's customer service runaround was bad, this is really the crux of the issue and what needs to be better publicized so more people are aware of it.

Advice:
- Continue to spread the word; their bad publicity may not solve your problem, but it might save someone else at least or maybe get the to change their policy if enough people complain.
- Next PC purchase, ask the vendor if they provide a real OS installation disk. If not, factor another $150 into their cost.
- Consider Apple (or Linux) as an alternative.
11.23.2005 5:46pm
Technosapien (mail):
Go Apple, if you have the flexibility. I recently had one of my 3 Powerbooks in at Apple for repair, and when it came back, it had a problem with the screen that it didn't have before I sent it in via the local Apple store. Long story short, after a quick visit to the Apple store to dispute the repair center's attempt to charge me for the extra problem, Apple repaired the powerbook for free and works great now.
11.23.2005 5:57pm
Andrew J. Lazarus (mail):
For desktops, build-your-own is easier than I thought. My 13-y.o. does it. Recommended. If you don't want to, find a teenager who does.

For Windows laptops (which is what I need for work) I have had a terrible Gateway, an excellent and rugged IBM, and a Dell that at least they serviced very quickly when broken (including major screen damage on original shipping). IBM, pre-Lenovo, was too far behind on the video/price tradeoff at last purchase. My office has Sonys, too new for a track record.
11.23.2005 5:59pm
Ron Hardin (mail) (www):
My 2nd Laptop came without a CD and I just emailed to ask for one and they sent it right out, free. (I see the online order form now gives you the option of buying a system CD.)

They mailed right out a rebate form for my 3rd laptop when I said (service chat) I didn't have a printer.

But don't get caught in their telephone system. There are bad cycles they haven't eliminated, or don't care about, all over. Perhaps those are the hassled employees.

I'm buying only the super-cheap laptops, so maybe don't expect much, and so am surprised by friendly service more than most might be. Or maybe it's the in-warranty vs. not.
11.23.2005 6:01pm
pst314 (mail):
"Dell's business model has morphed over the last several years to serving corporate clients."

That's right. My employer gets good support, but my personal experiences have been very bad. Level One support in India has only half a clue, and this the way Corporate wants it.

"Dell has always been good to me as long as you are still under warranty."

Support was lousy from the day it arrived. I suspect they were trying to put me off until I was past the 30-day no-questions return limit.


"All my Dells...have come with the operating system [disk]"

That is still true for business customers, but not for models aimed at consumers. In that case you have to waste an hour online or on the phone, requesting that they mail you a CD. Very annoying, and indicative of Dell's "don't care" attitude towards consumers.

"It's no trick to assemble a PC from quality parts"

That's not a realistic suggestion for the vast majority of people. Even most programmers are not prepared for that and don't want to spend time learning how.

"Continue to spread the word"

Yes, indeed. With luck it might get to the point where Jay Leno starts making jokes about used car salesmen refusing to be seen in the company of Dell executives. They only things those amoral jerks understand are falling sales and falling stock prices.
11.23.2005 6:06pm
Craig Baker (mail) (www):
You certainly dont have to purchase another copy of the OS - all you need is an XP Professional restore CD - it will get the notebook back up and going.

Depending on how your drive failed I may be able to recover the data on it - procedure is to copy all to a new drive (ignoring any drive errors) then doing a repair install of XP Pro. as long as a given file was on a readable area, you get back programs as well as your information.

You can have dell send you the restore disks - they cost far less than a new copy of XP.

And if you need, I could send you a copy of the XP Pro restore disk for dell notebooks.

hope this helps.

cdb.

ps dell service has degraded somewhat. trick is to get past the first level support (when you are talking to India). however, their service is FAR better than anyone elses. And their web based support is excellent.

I'm the oldest computer dealer you will ever run into btw. Over 35 years in business.
'nuff said. I've seen it all.

the folks that really screw you btw are sony and toshiba who do NOT provide you with the OS to do a repair install (necessary to save your data). in these cases, we do infact have to sell the customer a new version of XP - their XP Codes on the bottom of the computer/notebook - in fact - are completely worthless.
The disks these folks give you do nothing other than erase the disk and set it back to how it left the factory. you kiss your data goodbye!
11.23.2005 6:07pm
hey (mail):
I bought a dell, with the full protection system, and have had great service.

I also bought the highest end system available and maxed it out: Dell XPS laptop (before they went premium) with its own special number to call...

Your purchase price is directly related to your service experience.
11.23.2005 6:09pm
Harvey (mail):
Apple. I lost four Dells to various failures in two years and have many Dell horror stories. I started buying Macs then and now have three.

The first of these died suddenly this year just after the warranty expired. Apple waived the expiration and repaired it for free. $800 value. I bought service contracts the next day.

Computers are cheap, the Apple premium is now small. For that you get better service, great design, a stable unix-based Mac OS, NO Viruses, No virus Software (almost as bad). Life is good.
11.23.2005 6:10pm
Alice H (mail) (www):
I had a similar problem with Dell when my son smashed the keyboard on my laptop about a year ago, less than a month after the expiration of my CompleteCare warranty (My son was two, he thought it was a drum, I guess.) After spending an hour getting shuffled from place to place, I finally reached someone who said that I could ship the laptop in and have it replaced for $265. I asked them how much to ship me a replacement keyboard for me to have installed locally, they said $90 - but they would not be able to ship it for over a week. I ended up buying one off Ebay for $60 and paid a friend $50 to install it - it took him all of about 20 minutes.

I will say that their replacements and repairs under CompleteCare have been fast, though, at least once they figure out that what you are requesting is, indeed covered under their *COMPLETE*Care warranty. When you're figuring the cost of buying a notebook from them, don't forget to include the cost of CompleteCare when doing your comparison.

And on a side note - the Dell Inspiron 1150s have the worst ventilation ever - the single fan output blows right onto my lower thigh, making it virtually useless as a laptop computer.

Oh, and I second purchasing your replacement OS from newegg.com - they have good hardware and software prices.
11.23.2005 6:17pm
Nick Carter (mail) (www):
I bought a Dell recently and although the manual suggested I could burn recovery disks, it turned out that they have eliminated that "service" as well. So I asked for recovery disks and they were promptly shipped. I think as more people become aware (say, by Googling "no recovery disk") of the no-CD problem, less people will be burned by it.
11.23.2005 6:22pm
Ross (mail):
You might check with your university and see if they sell and support any brand. That way when you have a problem you can just drop it off there and let them handle it.
11.23.2005 6:22pm
Alexis Grey (mail):
You might try leaving a message at www.IHateDell.Com. The Dell techs there may be able to help you.

My experience has been that since Dell moved its Design team as well as support overseas - finished about two years ago - the problems with their equipment have multiplied, a lot. For alternate brands, IBM is great for notebooks. Sony makes a good quality product - but the company is not any more friendly than Dell. For desktops, contact your local computer small dealer who has been around for over 10 years. Won't be very many of them...but there is usually a reason they have been around that long. Nearly every survey shows the best customer support comes from small dealers.
11.23.2005 6:36pm
Sydney Locks (mail):
http://www.enterprisenetworksandservers.com /monthly/art.php/1818

Dell takes top spot for most reliable notebooks, desktops
Frost &Sullivan has presented Dell with its CEO Choice Award for the most reliable manufacturer of notebook computers for the second consecutive year. This year, Dell also received the CEO Choice Award for the most reliable manufacturer of desktop computers in North America.

Frost &Sullivan's latest poll of company CEOs and presidents ranked Dell notebooks as most reliable by a margin of almost two to one, while Dell desktops received, in the same measurement category, more than three times as many votes as the nearest competitor.

Dell notebooks and desktops placed No. 1 in several measurement categories, including overall quality and price vs. performance. Dell also took the top spot in notebook customer service, receiving four times the number of votes as the nearest competitor.

"These results indicate the preference of the leaders of the professional world using, as well as recommending, Dell notebook and desktop computers," a spokesman said.
11.23.2005 6:38pm
Berend de Boer (mail):
I bought a Dell Inspiron 7500 laptop 7 years ago or so, and it's still perfect. Have replaced the HD after 6 years, but everything still works.
11.23.2005 7:00pm
Splunge (mail):
First, why is Eugene bitching about Dell? Dell is a hardware company. They don't make Windows or the rules for using Windows. They just follow orders from Redmond, and I don't doubt (knowing Microsoft) that the 99-page contract that lays out what they may legally do -- if, to take a wild example, some silly consumer replaces his hard drive without thinking through how he's going to re-install the OS afterward -- contains provisions that Michael Dell's eyes will be put out with hot pokers if his company violates a word of a sub-sub-clause.

Eugene ultimately bought his license to use Windows from Microsoft, and if he thinks the terms of those license ought to include giving him any resources necessary to install the OS on another disk drive -- a debatable proposition, as anyone who thinks through the IP issues will realize -- why doesn't he take it up with them? Or at least consider asking whether Dell's policies are not pretty severely limited by what Microsoft demands?

Secondly, what's the profit on an $800 consumer computer? Maybe a whole $80? How much expert-quality service is that going to buy? Bearing in mind that an engineer can charge $100/hour for understanding the technical issues thoroughly, and a lawyer $300/hour for understanding the legal issue thoroughly? The way I see it, Dell can't possible afford to allocate more than about 5 minutes of expert service per sale if they want to show a positive return on investment to their shareholders.

Obviously, they have chosen to supply many more minutes of much lower-quality service instead. Is this surprising? Does anyone think it doesn't reflect market demand and consumer reality?

Eugene doesn't really have a problem with Dell. He just needs a boutique computer re-seller that for premium dollars will hold his hand and make sure he doesn't need to worry about any fine print in his license agreement, and will provide him with any back-up disks he might have carelessly neglected to make when he first got the machine despite being told to do so in the instruction manual in large black block letters. There are probably plenty of such people near UCLA who sell computers to folks like David Geffen and Maria Shriver. I suspect Dell is safe from any patrician ire about the annoying difficulty of finding competent help for peanuts these days.
11.23.2005 7:03pm
Cornellian (mail):
My office used to have Dell laptops and they were junk - slapped together, flimsy, bits of plastic falling off - I wondered how they ever got repeat customers with quality like that.

I have an old IBM laptop that's a pretty solid machine though it's currently gathering dust due to a virus problem and it wasn't my main laptop anyway. I'd be a bit wary of going with them now since they got sold to that Chinese company (Lenovo?) about which I know nothing.

My main laptop was an old Apple Powerbook that ran without a hitch for five years and, despite having no anti-virus software on it, and being connected to the internet for most of those five years, never once had a virus or spyware problem. I recently upgraded to a new Apple Powerbook and I think it's a great machine. I have Microsoft Office on it (which is actually pretty good) but I don't use it that much. I don't have much personal knowledge of Apple's customer service since I've never had to call them about anything, but I know surveys rank them very highly in that regard. One thing for sure is that you won't have the common situation in the Windows world where the PC manufacturer blames Microsoft and Microsoft blames the PC manufacturer.

Bottom line: I will never buy another Windows machine as long as Apple is still making computers.
11.23.2005 7:10pm
End the woes (mail):
My family has had a slew of laptops - three sonys, two HPs, and two IBMs.

My kids have the IBMs. They are solidly built, and when we've had trouble with them, IBM service has been incredible. Sony, too, has been good - HP service was good but the reliability was sub-par.

I recently bought another Sony because IBM didn't offer what I wanted. If they had, I'd have bought that, no question.
11.23.2005 7:11pm
Justin Katz (mail) (www):
Richard Blaine writes that "You never hear these kind of complaints from Mac users!"

Well, one rarely hears complaints from cult members. Back in college, I knew a kid who was very vocal about problems with his Mac. Too vocal. They found his car in the woods with the open-apple key from his computer jammed into the rearview mirror.

On the topic at hand, I've never had problems with my HP --- through which company I was able to buy much more of a computer than Apple would have allowed (even without including the cost of my soul).
11.23.2005 7:12pm
Cornellian (mail):
He just needs a boutique computer re-seller that for premium dollars will hold his hand and make sure he doesn't need to worry about any fine print in his license agreement, and will provide him with any back-up disks he might have carelessly neglected to make when he first got the machine despite being told to do so in the instruction manual in large black block letters.

Or he could just get an Mac Powerbook laptop, since they just work without requiring any tech guru to hold your hand. Apple gives you CD copies of everything when you buy the computer, and transferring everything (data, applications, iTunes songs etc.) from an old Mac to a new one basically involves connecting them with a firewire cable and turning them on.

I found it interesting that one of the earlier posters stated that 80% of the calls tech support gets are people complaining about spyware that somehow got onto their machines. I'd venture that percentage for Apple computers is very close to zero. I have never had a virus, spyware or malware problem with either of the Macs I have owned and don't even use anti-virus software on them.
11.23.2005 7:17pm
anti-splunge (mail):
So what splunge is saying is:

The peaseants have no bread? Let them eat cake!

11.23.2005 7:20pm
Jadagul (mail) (www):
I second the posters who suggested a smaller vendor—as long as you're buying a reasonably high-end computer. I recently bought a new desktop from Velocity Micro, and I've been thrilled with it. When something got screwed up in the billing, service was good; the price was good; and the computer's worked perfectly. On the other hand, it is a high-end seller (the absolute low-end desktop is about a thousand dollars). The quality per dollar is very high, but you have to be buying something pretty good to begin with. But if you're going for a nice computer, high-end sellers are the way to go.
11.23.2005 7:24pm
CavDude (mail):
I work for a regional headquarters of a large government agency and in my little corner of it we are an exclusive Dell shop. Our Dell experiences have been excellent -- but when you have been throwing between a quarter and a half million bucks at Dell every year for ten years or so, they figure they have to keep you happy.

My advice for the potential Dell customer echoes a lot of what previously posted, but to sum up:

1. Do NOT buy a consumer line machine -- Inspiron or Dimension. Get a business box (Latitude or Optiplex). They are more expensive, sure. THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

2. Get CompleteCare. Get Gold care if it's offered (again, I think Gold Care is only available with the business lines).

3. Get the OS CDs shipped with the computer. Pay extra if you have to. Once you get them, BURN A COPY. Keep the two CDs in separate places -- if you have a safe deposit box, that's a good place for one of them.

4. When your warranty expires, SELL THE BOX. NOW. Computers are made the way Detroit used to make cars -- planned obsolescence IS the business model.

5. Back up your data. If the file is important, keep it in more than one place. If it's REALLY important, put a copy in SEVERAL places.

6. Oh yes, BACK UP YOUR DATA. Yes, I know I said that.
11.23.2005 7:27pm
Humphrey Bogus (mail):
Had a similar problem with an IBM laptop that had a recovery partition but no XP system disks. Calls at midnight to IBM support were answered in Atlanta in 2 min; they sent a tech to my house several times and replaced (at no charge) every part of my computer except the battery and the screen. I had to work hard to get the system disks (the first batch had errors on them, but the 2nd batch worked), and I experienced a fair bit of pain up to that point, but they were nothing if not willing to help. Plus, the tech was local, and all parts were Airborne Express'd to my house.

I purchased the Thinkpad through my business school computer store, so we likely had a "corporate" purchase deal (though the school itself provided no support). I've had Apples that were maintenance nightmares back in the mid 1990s, but IBM support was fantastic. Hopefully that will continue with Lenovo.
11.23.2005 7:30pm
Stephen M (Ethesis) (www):
They should have included a CD with the install and there is ZERO reason for you to re-buy. Microsoft allows you to re-install XP if you get a new hard drive.

The important fact is that Microsoft really does allow you to re-install XP when you get a new hard drive. I've done it.

Use someone else's disk, call Microsoft up, and get validated.

The computer I'm working on, for example. It died, after repairs, I needed to reinstall WinXP. No recovery disk, just used a friend's, called Microsoft and was back in business immediately.
11.23.2005 7:50pm
arbitraryaardvark (mail) (www):
Take your experience with Dell, imagine you had to go in person to their center, where there's a guy with a gun in case you get ornery, and you have some idea of what it's like to try to get a voting license in indiana, from the BMV. Took me over a year, a few hundred dollars, and a lawyer. So I'm not a big fan of voter ID.
11.23.2005 7:52pm
gort:
Apple? More like Crapple . . . you go Apple and you'll regret it in the long run. No flexibility. You get what you pay for. Crap.

You should've been more assertive with Dell; when you purchase a machine - Mac or PC - you're entitled to OS discs, so don't forget that next time. :-)
11.23.2005 7:59pm
miller:
I have a 3 year old Dell Inspiron. Chug chug chugin along. No problems with it yet, knock on wood.
11.23.2005 8:02pm
Nathan Sharfi (www):
On Windows CDs from Dell, in my experience:

First, they shipped recovery Windows CDs with the computer. Then, they stopped shipping said CDs. Now they will ship them to you (when you order the computer) for $10 extra (assuming this is for Windows XP Professional).
11.23.2005 8:07pm
jimsjournal (www):
Over the years I've purchased good, reliable machines from both Dell and IBM. I've not had to call for customer support in a long time (knock wood) but I was satisfied with the service from both companies. However, at the beginning of this year I bought my wife a new Dell laptop (upgraded from basic specs to have a gig of RAM, etc.) and she continues to be delighted by her machine -- my problem is that there was a $100 mail-in rebate on this machine for which I mailed in the form and the bar-code from the packaging and yet I have never received the rebate and they don't seem to know (or care) what has happened to the rebate.

I find your experience (combined with my own) to be troubling because I had liked Dell (and I even bought some of their stock in my Roth IRA a few years ago) and yet given the kind of shoddy service you've reported, I don't think I would be quite as willing to purchase another Dell in the future. I live in the kind of household computer companies should like -- currently four people and six computers (not counting the IBM ThinkPad that belongs to my employer) and both of my college-age kids are talking about getting new machines -- but I can't imagine getting very far with Dell service by telling them I have a Web page that roughly fifty people read on a regular basis. Yeah, that would impress them big time.
11.23.2005 8:29pm
Atty in Chicago:
I've had good luck with Dell. It is the only company I'd buy a laptop from because of their great warranty. Make sure you get "Complete Care" which will fix anything, even accidents like stepping on your computer. I break my computer every 9 months it seems, so it's worth the extra $200 for the warranty.
11.23.2005 8:33pm
tt (mail) (www):
You didn't need to order another copy of XP. The previous coyp was registered to your machine. Since it sounds like you were missing the reinstall disks, you could have had Dell ship you new ones. Failing that, you could have gotten the reinstall disks from anyone else with a Dell laptop, or even a Dell desktop, and it just would have worked. I know this from experience.
11.23.2005 8:33pm
David Moser (mail):
The hard drive failed on my Compaq (Hewitt-Packard)laptop. I got through quickly to customer service at about 11:00 pm local, explained my problem and was told a new drive would be sent out Federal Express in the morning. It arrived 2 days later and it was easy to re-install the operating system with the system discs that came with the computer.
11.23.2005 8:36pm
Ian Argent (mail):
I actually went and read the EULA on my OEM version of XP Pro (the kind you are only supposed to buy with a computer). It rather explicitly allows you to install THAT LICENSED COPY on another machine, as long as you remove it from your first machine - in the situation that you might be upgrading. All the EULAs that I've looked at for Windows XP have this provision.
11.23.2005 8:56pm
Curous Guy (mail):
Out of curiosity, why pay so much for Windows XP? Doesn't the UCLA University Computer store sell them for < $100? They do at most institutions, including mine to any professor or student.
11.23.2005 9:01pm
Elliot123 (mail):
1. Determine what kind of software you will be using. If it is Web browsing, word processing, email, and spreadsheets, get an Apple. If everything you do can be done by an Apple, do it on Apple. I have a PC only because realtime market analysis software is all written for the PC.

2. Consider building your own PC. It's easy to build a PC. Get a book at Barnes &Noble and look at the pictures. Get an OEM copy of windows and you are now independent of anyone's service desk. (This won't work for laptops.)

3. In January Apple will begin selling machines with an Intel chip. This will be a full blown Apple, but it will also be able to run windows and all windows programs. Don't buy the first model, but this could be the best of all possible worlds. Both laptops and desktops will be available. By end of 2006, Apple claims all machines will be Intel based.
11.23.2005 9:34pm
acs:
ask to talk to someone in the "Resolutions" department in Texas.
11.23.2005 9:43pm
anon2:
I heartily endorse apple as well. My G3 ibook still runs like a dream and upgrades have been simple. The one time I needed customer service was due to a mistake I made (I deleted a system file), and they were easy to get ahold of and fixed the problem fast.

There are trade offs to consider in addition to cost though. the battery life of apple laptops is not as good as some PC's from what I hear. Hopefully this will improve when apple switches to intel chips.
11.23.2005 9:44pm
George (mail):
It's that outsourced tech support.
(NSFW)
11.23.2005 9:48pm
anon2:
Eliott,
Last I heard Apple claimed that Windows will not run on their intel based machines. Evidently there will be something hardwired in to prevent it. Have you heard something new?
11.23.2005 9:49pm
Tim G:
I'd recommend Apple, as well. As the father of two young children, I can report that Apple has been outstanding handling repairs that could fairly have been regarded as beyond normal wear-and-tear. When my daughter knocked my Powerbook G4 off my table and onto a hardwood floor, Apple cheerfully fixed the resulting replacement of the cracked main logic board, as well as the cosmetic damage to the case. When my AC adapter started to intermittantly fail to charge the laptop, a trip to the local Apple store resulted in them simply handing me a new one, with no fuss and again free of charge. When my 40-gig hard drive failed at the end of my warrenty period, they quickly replaced it with an 80-gig drive (no charge), and even replaced the little rubber feet that had come off the bottom of the laptop without me having to ask them.

Even if you're not positive about "switching," their new line of Intel-powered computers will reportedly a) allow installations of Windows, allowing easy "switchback" if you don't like OSX; and b) be out as soon as January of 2006. The (shrinking) price premium for macs tends to be justified by the quality of their components and support, and UCLA's computer store tends to constantly have outstanding sale prices.
11.23.2005 9:53pm
NYClawstudent:
I had a similarly horrible experience with Dell, but it lasted much longer, involved sending hours on the phone multiple times and sending my computer back to them ... all during my first 2 months of law school. They eventually replaced my old computer w/ a new one. This one now has its own problems, just two years later. I usually am not the type that writes letters, but I would've here -- if I had more time.

I can't wait til I'm pulling a paycheck next year and can buy a new, non-Dell computer. Now, if my computer can just last through the bar in July ...
11.23.2005 9:55pm
Elliot123 (mail):
anon2,

Apple will rig the Apple op sys so it will only run on an Apple manufactured machine. This will prevent people from running the Apple Tiger system on their PC's. This allows Apple to keep selling its own machines which have a much higher margin than PCs.

But the intel based Apple will be able to run windows and windows software. The user will boot either Apple or windows op sys.
11.23.2005 9:56pm
Tim G:
Anon2-

I think you're confusing Apple's attempts to make sure their OSX for Intel can't run on commodity PC hardware... my understanding (including conversations with Apple employees) is that the new Intel macs will definitely allow installation of Windows, either dual-boot or overwriting OSX.
11.23.2005 9:57pm
Noah Snyder (mail):
My old Dell never had any real problems and was hapilly retired to the closet after 5 years of good service. So I can't say anything about their customer service. My new Apple iBook also hasn't broken so I haven't had a chance to use Apple's customer care either. But when my iPod broke they gave me a new one right there in the store the day I brought in my old one.
11.23.2005 10:00pm
roaringlamb (mail) (www):
My laptop, an Dell Inspiron 8100 has only two problems, a non-working 3.5 floppy drive which is these days isn't needed, and the battery is nearly dead after five years of service.

There's hundreds of thousands of Dells out there. Mine is a reliable workhorse and there's probably lots more where that came from. What I've tired of waiting for is an operating system as intuitive as Apple's. But I've seen three apples crash in my office--needing major repairs--so while they are better than PC's they are not problem free.

Point? Every computer company will have a certain percentage of their computers need repairs; good computers can be had for less money than Apple wants for theirs. Good customer service comes at a price.
11.23.2005 10:13pm
DRJ (mail):
I've owned computers since the early 1980's and Dell products since 1995. I had virtually the same experience with my son's Inspiron laptop that Professor Volokh describes (including the complete meltdown and telephone problems/disconnects). Here's what I learned from dealing with Dell and other vendors:

1. Use the automated system to get to tech support and then try to get to a real person as soon as possible after you reach tech support. Alternatively, follow the earlier advice to ask for the "Resolutions" department.

2. If it appears the tech person doesn't understand how to fix your problem or doesn't care if it gets fixed (trust your instincts), call back. If it happens again, wait 6-12 hours and call the next shift. I've had the best results when calling after midnight CST (after 10 PM PST). The last time I used Dell the tech support was in Canada, Texas and India. I liked the Canadian support - they were friendly and knowledgeable, but I'm a Texan so I also like people who talk Texan. Ultimately, however, the person that fixed my machine was with tech support in India. He even followed up weekly for the following 3 weeks to make sure things worked. It's hard not to like that.

3. Dell also tried to charge me for the reinstall disk, but ultimately they gave it to me. I suggest you tell them exactly how they've (mis)treated you, including a log of how many times you called and who you talked to. Make sure you also tell them the things they did right. Usually there's something good you can say, like "This person was helpful and pleasant, even though they couldn't fix my computer." If you ask for a supervisor, tell them you aren't complaining about the attitude of the person who helped you (unless that was a problem), but that you need more help with your problem than that person could give you. I've found that the supervisors, especially at Dell, want to protect their employees from abusive customers. Similar comments from Mecutio, a commenter earlier in this thread, sounded right to me. The people you are talking to probably have dealt with phone abuse all day.

4. Don't give up and be aware that tech people are, in essence, guessing at what's wrong with your computer. It may take a few guesses to get it right if your computer has an unusual problem. The hardest repair I had was with an Inspiron 1150 with a bad motherboard. That took 6 months, a dozen or more calls, and 2 return trips to Dell before it was working again.

5. I second the advice to purchase through your university. Alternatively, tell Dell that you are purchasing for educational use as a student or, in your case, as faculty, and you should get a significant discount. In addition, depending on whether Dell is authorized at UCLA, they might be able to configure your machine so it works with your college intranet more easily.
11.23.2005 10:29pm
DRJ (mail):
To follow up on something that might not be clear in my earlier post:

5. I second the advice to purchase through your university. Alternatively, tell Dell that you are purchasing for educational use as a student or, in your case, as faculty, and you should get a significant discount.

Only people who are actually students or faculty should try to get an educational discount.
11.23.2005 10:35pm
JSchuler:
I have a long relationship with Dell. My first Dell was a Pentium 90. It died a few years ago when its 1-gig harddrive went buh-bye. I decided it wasn't even worth it to get it up and running again. I currently have a Dimension 550 and a 2000mhz machine. All of these have been very reliable. The only problem I've actually had was the driver CD sent with the 550 has the folders mislabeled, so if Windows decides to blow up, I have to call up Dell to find out where the hell the drivers for my soundcard are.

I am going to be purchasing another Dell in the next few days. However, I am buying from the small buisness section. I've found that the Precision line is actually not more expensive than the Dimension systems.

I'm going to advise against going for Apple. Their logic boards have a tendancy to fry and take everything with it. Basically, Apple quality control doesn't exist. Have a lot of friends in the video-editing buisness who were very enamored with the G5s when they came out. After many unpleasant experiences with the machines, they've decided they will never buy another Apple. And I won't even mention my uncanny ability to destroy any Mac simply by being in the same room with it. I actually have a theory that computer brands respond to pheromones, and some people have Mac pheromones while others have PC pheromones. Sure, people laugh at me now, but when I win the Nobel Prize we'll see who has the last laugh!

And you could build your own, if you are not too concerned about reliability (not to say homebuilt systems are unstable, but you do have to be confident in your own abilities to either fix problems or to learn how to fix problems). It seems daunting, but really it's not.
11.23.2005 11:14pm
Randy Barnett (mail) (www):
In case anyone is reading this far, I used to have all my desktop PCs build locally. Then BU bought me a Gateway that did not last nearly so long and could not be fixed. Recently, due solely to price I have bought Dell desktops for me and my wife, and my dad and father-in-law have them too. Dell is also the desktop BU buys for us at the office. All 5 PCS are functioning smoothly. (all of them were also purchased from Dell's business division, but I have not had to use customer support.)

Laptops, in my experience, are another matter. Both my kids have gone through several Compaqs, which have had any number of problems that Compaq has failed to fix. My daughter's newest Toshiba has broken in about 2 years.

On the other hand, my Sony Vaio lasted well after it was obsolete, but it was such a champ, I hated to replace it. For the past 2 years I have been using a Panasonic Toughbook that has run perfectly.

(I have had some Windows-related problems with various PCs stemming largely from loading too much software that ultimately did not like each other. These I had to fix myself. I would consider switching to Apple, but I am way too invested in Windows hardware and software. I find XP acceptably stable, though it is not without its problems. Nor are Apples BTW.)

I have had largely good luck with tech support with all my PCs. My real problems have been with hardware that fails in undiagnosable ways (or the aforementioned Windows problems). My better experience is probably due to the fact that I fall into the category (mentioned by a previous poster) of knowing something about the PCs, which explains why my dad seems to get awful tech support that only messes things up more. That does not seem to happen to me. And I try to be very respectful of tech support persons and enlist them in trying to solve my problem. They usually try, and are also usually successful in pointing out the one screwy thing that I could not have possibly been expected to know, which always makes me feel better.

The main lesson I have drawn from this is to avoid tech support altogether by buying hardware--especially laptops--with a well-deserved reputation for reliability (Sony-Panasonic) or is so cheap that I won't feel bad trashing it if something goes wrong (Dell). But then the Dells have lasted much longer than the Gateway, so far at least after a few years, and are starting to rival the no name PCs (with name brand innards) that I used to favor.

And I now back up and sync all my working data on 3 different PCs by using Logmein, as I described in a previous post here.

Then again, it also pays to be lucky in PCs as in love.
11.23.2005 11:59pm
Joel Mackey (mail):
ummm, I have bought several dells, and used even more as work purchased machines, they always come with the operating system disks.

Furthermore, all of my home pcs have always stated quiet plainly during initial boot up, that system boot disks should be created....

Or perhaps, instead of bitching about dell on your "popular weblog" you could have requested someone send you an xp pro sp .xxx boot disk...

Hell, you could get the whole operating system off irc quicker than posting up a bitch to your weblog.

But yea, its Dell's fault your so stupid that you pay twice for one operating system and take several hours to do it.......

Lets see, your not sharp enough to use linux, so yea, you better go with a mac next time.
11.24.2005 12:33am
Challenge:
Why didn't Professor Volokh just go buy a new copy of Windows and download the drivers he needs from Dell's website?
11.24.2005 1:00am
Challenge:
If the above scenario is possible, maybe Professor Volokh should consider it. Newegg is selling XP Pro for approximately $150.
11.24.2005 1:06am
Visitor Again:
It's all in the vibes, Eugene. I've known this for a long time.

In early 1970s Venice, a friend out for a walk waited for a light to change at Windward and Pacific. A hippy and his dog approached. The dog bit my friend although she was just standing there doing nothing. The hippy shook his head at my friend and said, "Bad vibes."

There you have it.
11.24.2005 1:08am
Jeron (mail):
I am a little late in getting this and after looking through 30 of the posts I got tired and decided to just post and hope you look at this. My advice is to first get a full refund on windows XP. You already payed for the license why pay for it again? Second find someone with the same version of XP that you have (Pro i think you put) and then install it. But don't use their key - that would be illegal. Use the XP key that is pasted to the bottom of your laptop. It is standard for dell to affix your XP product key on the bottom of your laptop.

Best of luck
11.24.2005 1:24am
John Armstrong (mail):
I'll second (third? nth?) the Apple comment.

Also, this is not the worst thing that could happen with Dell. I refer you to this story. In essence: boot-up screen says "read EULA and hit any key". EULA is on hard drive (hitting the key accepts the EULA, so you can't read that copy) and inside the system disk packet (opening which automatically accepts). So, you have to accept the terms and conditions of the EULA before you can read them.
11.24.2005 2:22am
Realtime Tom:
In nearly 12 years of creative development, I speak from experience. I have over the last 6 years migrated entirely from Apple to Wintel; WinXP Pro pushed me over the edge. I have been using WinXP Pro since it's market inception, and I can sit here and honestly write that I never, ever once had a blue screen of death. After using MacOS (last two versions) and WinXP Pro extensively, I can also say that from the standpoint of simplicity, expediting production and ease of use, WinXP Pro wins out for me everytime. Now you Militant Mac Cultists (and you know who you are) can go ahead and gnash your teeth, stamp your feet, whatever, but my experience is "from experience".

Now that doesn't mean Apple or MacOS is bad. It's not. In fact it's beautiful, elegant stuff and works just fine for some, yet for those that keep insisting on the "superior" and "ease of use" characteristics of MacOS with jabs at MS, I can only say you should try WinXP Pro sometime before you go making blanketed value judgements on it; I say this because almost everytime I encounterd this divisionism, it's from users that have NEVER used WinXP Pro; as a matter of fact, some of them still think the OS of dominance for Wintel is Win98! No wonder!

Another the bottom line from my experience is flexibility in price and hardware; I hated dealing with just Apple and their authorized list of third party vendors.
11.24.2005 6:01am
midwich (mail):
Not had to time to read other posts, but if it's customer support you want it's a no-brainer: get a Mac - Apple regularly comes top of PC Mag polls etc on this topic. BTW I can't believe you agreed to buy another copy of the OS you already owned - this also would never happen with Apple.
11.24.2005 6:30am
Tomas Gomez (mail):
Hate to sound like a broken record, but I must also recommend Apple. I have owned an Apple for personal use since 1983. (I have always used PCs at work.) Probably been through 3 Apple II series and 7 macs (including most recently the 17" powerbook). In all that time, and with all those computers, I only once had to take my computer in for service. It was a quick and painless warranty repair which was done at the local dealer.
11.24.2005 6:42am
Slocum (mail):
I've had excellent experiences with Dell service--including a recent one. I bought a 20" Dell 2000FP LCD monitor and a few months ago, after over two years into the 3 year warranty, it started acting up. They sent me a brand new 2001FP (the improved follow-on model). I also bought a Dell DLP projector and had a problem with one of the cables--they fedex'd out a new set of cables immediately.

One bit of advice--buy through the small business rather than home section of the Dell web site. Prices are about the same and customer service is better. That said, there's no excuse for the runaround OR for having to buy a new copy of XP.

Lastly, here's the thinking about the recovery partition instead of recovery CDs--it's not a scheme to make you buy additional copies of Windows if your disk crashes. The reason for doing it is that then they don't have to order a new run of CDs every time any hardware driver versions change--they can just update the image file they use to build the systems. But if Dell goes that route, they SHOULD be including blank CDs with the system and the generation of recovery disks SHOULD be part of the initial machine setup process. Blank CDs or DVDs cost almost nothing, and they'd be saving themselves tech support headaches and bad publicity.
11.24.2005 7:17am
tefta (mail):
Let me be the 101st to register displeasure with my association with Dell and, just in case someone from Dell actually wakes up and reads this string, I want to let them know that I won't do business with Dell again even if hell freezes over.
11.24.2005 7:23am
taxman:
I'll might buy a Dell again, but I'm skimping out on the 3 year warranty. It's utterly worthless. I too was just trying to get a XP disk from Dell tech support (because my HD died). Couldn't get one. I wasn't even trying to get a new HD from them (didn't trust them to send me a good one after the old one died). All I wanted was the damn disk they ship out with every computer. Luckily my father had the same computer as I had and didn't misplace his XP disk like I did.

What I'd really like is for Dell to start shipping computers with an AMD CPU.
11.24.2005 8:55am
John Mc (mail):
I work in the IT shop of a large telco and I have to agree with Noel's comments on the industry as a whole. All the major brands has chopped thier support systems in half. Most of the consumer side has been shoved to india to lower costs. The business side stayed here. The only reason the majors keep the consumer side is the economy of scale factors that give them price leverage with MS, Intel and other suppliers.

Another secret that most do not know about is that of all the laptops made there are only 4 companies that make them; all from overseas and none of them are a major brand (ie Dell, HP or IBM). So if you buy a Dell laptop that is actually some tiwainese designed and developed product (to spec) with a dell logo on. Try this test. Go to Dell, HP, IBM and print out pics of the units. Now go to Twinhead, NewEgg and any other off brand you think of and print out their pics. Then start doing some side by side comparisons. You will see what I mean.

With Lenevo buying IBM that might change some, but right now that is the state of the industry.

As to good brands, right now IBM is still a good pick, I also like some of the Twinhead products. But I will tell you the most critical item to look for on the laptop is the display only becuase it is the most expensive part in the whole unit. Look for one with a fairly high MTBF and pixel death guarantee. Replacing a motherboard or HD in a laptop is a pair of C notes with labor. Replacing a display will go for nearly the price you paid for the unit.

Last comment. Unless you have specific apps that only run windows chuck MS and get a good linux distro. Get a retail pack of Sun Office. (open office is ok but it lacks some nicesties). Throw in a SQL database and you pretty much have a complete solution -- with access to CD's for the asking. I converted 2 years ago, and my wife and daughter converted this year. Spent about a month showing them the Linux ropes and we have not looked back or missed a thing. And the time I have spent being the 'in house' support tech has dwindled to nothing but loading new applications from time to time for them. Sweet.
11.24.2005 9:14am
gbrown (mail):
In my expereince with Dell and Sony computers, you always must create your own set of installation cds that will restore a computer to some god-awful initial state, replete with features that no sane adult wants. The manufacturers definitely are unhelpful in this matter, but the real impediment appears to be Microsoft's refusal to permit the distribution of software that a user can "use."
11.24.2005 10:05am
btorrez (mail):
I have had good luck with dellauction which sells refurbished Dell equipment at a nice discount. Buy the warranty upgrades and stay with business products. Thanks for all the good advise from the posters. It has been very educational!!
11.24.2005 10:17am
BobVDV (mail):
Wow! Nearly as many comments here as the gay marriage threads!
11.24.2005 10:43am
TMP (mail):
Always buy the media with the PC. It only costs $10 extra from Dell. I can't believe they would not just waive the fee, but that is what it is like doing business with companies this size. It is what keeps me in business. Service is simple and hard at the same time.

Anyhow, a simple solution is that if you have the license key/COA on the computer, just go to eBay and buy the media for less than $20. Even simpler, let me know your mail address and I'll send it for free. If you did not back up your drive and need to get some data recovered, let me know. I have some tricks that work in many cases.
11.24.2005 11:23am
The Editors, American Federalist Journal (mail) (www):
That's complete garbage! You paid for the OS when you bought the computer. There's no justification for them to charge you to buy the OS again. They might be justified in charging a few bucks, like TMP said above, for the media, but no more than 10 or 20 bucks, tops. That's beyond bad customer service, it's actually more like they're trying to scam you. At this point, they should send you the disks for free to make up for the trouble. Keep after them, they richly deserve it.
11.24.2005 12:21pm
WB:
I bought a Dell before law school and had several similarly miserable experiences with their customer "service" department.
11.24.2005 2:06pm
Brooks Lyman (mail):
Well, I could suggest that you buy a Macintosh (and no, that is NOT the same as telling the fellow broke down by the side of the road "get a horse!), but more to the point I would suggest the following:

To Dell, 1) get your Customer Service act in gear and 2) supply a backup disk with your machines - even the low-ball e-Machines box I bought way back when supplied a Microsoft backup disk.

To you (and everyone else out there), if you have one of these machines - whether Mac or PC - with no backup disk, whether for the operating system or some other software that came installed with it, make one ASAP, assuming that you have a CDRW or DVD-RW drive in the machine. If necessary, there are utility programs that make it easy to backup the entire Hard Drive (or, presumably, selected chunks of it) in a manner that allows you to reload a working system onto the machine after you have had a wipeout HD crash or have replaced the HD.

I don't claim to be any expert, particulaly on Wintel machines, but the above seems obvious and I know it can be done, somehow or other. Maybe someone else can be a bit more specific on this.

Good Luck.

Brooks Lyman
11.24.2005 4:59pm
AppSocREs (mail):
I caught the tail end of an NPR item last night that might be useful in situations like this. Apparently there is at least one web site that provides "cheats" for getting almost immediately to an honest-to-God human being on most of these idiot automated customer support lines. Whether the person you get will be familiar enough with English and American culture to help you is something that I would guess may need further research.
11.24.2005 5:45pm
junk@junk.com (mail):
Even for "Corporate" customers dell is a pain - took 24 hours to get a tech for a "4 hour" service contract - after spending 2 hours on the phone.

I'm not sure who I'm going to purchase my next server from - maybe IBM.

workstation - Dell - assume they are disposal

engineering workstations - use xi computers!
11.24.2005 8:51pm
Walt Quist (mail):
I sent Eugene's email to a friend who is a hard core Dell user as am I (three desktops and two laptops since 1993) She said:

He should read Ed Foster's GripeLine. There doesn't seem to be
anybody who does a good job of tech support. I'm surprised he
didn't get his install disks with his 'puter, I always have from Dell. Imagine my surprise when I didn't get any CDs with the Sony Vaio I had to buy last year on short notice!
11.24.2005 9:58pm
Justin Kee (mail):
As some of the above posters have pointed out, you hvae already purchased Windows when you bought the PC. If you need a new copy of the media, call Microsoft (they have an 800 number on their Web site), give them your license number and they will ship you a new copy of the CD for about $25. Don't spend the $200+ with Dell for what you already have licensed....
11.24.2005 11:31pm
You4Bian1:
Don't buy Inspiron laptops. If you buy a dell laptop, buy the Latitude model. It is a business class machine that is a much better product from what I hear.

I don't understand why you had to buy a new copy of XP. You had the rights to a copy when you bought the machine originally.
11.25.2005 3:23am
Bruce Small (mail) (www):
When my screen failed I called Dell's business number, being as our computers are owned by the company, and the name does end in Inc. Nope, according to their records it is a personal computer, so off to India I went. A measured 48 minutes later the nice lady answered the phone. Great service that was.
11.25.2005 9:07am
gym42 (mail) (www):
I cannot believe all the comments dissing Dell, dissing Wintel machines, etc. I've saw only a couple of comments that went straight to the point that I think is important here. Why should you pay over $200 for second license on a somthing that you have already licensed? That is a total ripoff. You purchased the operating system, you own the license. It didn't go away just because the hard drive crashed. I would be pushing back to Dell big time if I were you (if, of course, if is worth while for you to do so).

Good luck .... and you have a great blog!
11.25.2005 9:29am
Garibaldi (mail):
I recently bought a Dell desktop and thus far have no complaints with the product -- probably because the item is still new. Dell customer service, however, leaves much to be desired. I missed a payment by only a few days and received a call from a person with a distinctive Indian accent who took a hostile, almost threatening tone. It almost sounded as though they were going to send some thug to break my legs unless I paid up. In fact, the check was already in the ma