Christmas Capitalism:
I love this:
Sales tags touting deep price cuts were flying like battle flags this week in the electronics department of Wal-Mart in Manassas. Twice each week, about a dozen employees sneak into enemy territory -- Target is just two miles away -- to scope out prices. When they return, the store starts discounting, undercutting the competition by 5 percent or more, manager Beth Melson said.
I went to Wal Mart once and it was incredibly depressing. The place was a maze of dark, narrow aisles that towered 12 or 14 feet high. There was little effort to clean up when things had fallen or customers had failed to put them back. Some boxes were opened and on the floor in the middle of the aisles. Much of the merchandise I saw was of such obviously poor quality that I wouldn't have it in my home for free. I know Wal Mart provides low priced merchandise to many who are happy to get it, but the few cases where I might buy identical merchandise at both stores (CDs e.g.) are not worth the Wal Mart experience.
I just think it's sad, though...there are so many people out there, especially kids, who celebrate Christmas with absolutely no reference to why Christmas actually even exists. Even if one isn't religious, they could still say something like "The reason the holiday exists is to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. Christians believe that he was the son of God, and that he was born in order to help us be better people." Even if they just leave it at that, at least then kids will know that the name "Christmas" actually derives from something meaningful, and isn't just a made-up word.
The funny thing is, though, that Wal-Mart will kick you out of the store on the spot if they see you writing down prices, to prevent exactly this mild form of coporate espionage.
People who won't shop at Wal-mart but will at Target are free to do so, but I can't help that feel (other than if your local wal-mart is just poorly operated but that can happen at your local target too) there's a little bit of class snobbery going on. Which again, people are free to be class snobs, I just don't have to think it's because of some greater moral worth.
All this reminds me of why I disliked it so when I first heard someone say they were going to "Tar-zhay."
FYI, that's irony rather than class snobbery. I am shopping at a mass chain store (now, amusingly, with some nods to designer culture); ergo I will give it a phony French pronunciation. I realize this distinction can be difficult for some in flyover country to grasp.
I shop at neither at present (there's no Wal-Mart close, come to think of it), but have noticed a huge variation in the tolerability of both when I did. With the best Targets the most tolerable.
Also, I would note that merchandise at Target and Wal-mart in many cases is essentially identical, and hardly limited to CDs (which Wal-mart censors in some cases, so they may not be identical). The food and toiletry items at both stores are fairly uniform, and I imagine that the sporting goods, hardware, and electronics are as well. Further, while Wal-mart's stores may not be as neatly stocked, Wal-mart's return policy is much more generous than Target's is. That alone would make me more willing to buy a gift at Wal-mart (knowing that the person can easily take it back if desired, even if I forget to include a gift receipt).
I just find it hard to believe that there is a sizeable population that finds Target acceptable but Wal-mart unacceptable, given that the two are fairly similar.
Last, I, too, believe that the Tar-zhay pronunciation is a joke.
Irony is rarely done well. Most who try, descend into pretension, or shrill sarcasm.
And your comment about flyover country was pretty rude, by the way.
From http://www.slate.com/id/2124604/
There is nothing silly about paying 5% extra to shop in an environment one finds more pleasant.
What a great line!
Target's commercials are certainly more stylish than Walmart's.
I miss the dog they painted the bullseye onto.
It would be interesting to know whether this is part of Wal Mart's strategy. They know people will flock to their store, so making it slightly inaccessible isn't that big a deal. I know that at least one company I worked for specifically chose not to enter larger markets because of the rental costs. Wal Mart at one time had a similar strategy, though it has obviously outgrown it now.
I must admit, I don't shop at Wal Mart as much as I did in undergrad, but only because I have more income and the convenience and selection of other stores (i.e. grocery stores) is more valuable to me than the rock-bottom pricing is. Getting in and out is more important than saving a few bucks for me, and I typically can get in and out of Target or a grocery store much more quickly than Wal Mart.
And I wholly agree. I think paying more than 5% more for materially better service is probably worth it. I mean hey, I could shop at a cheaper Supermarket, but I tend to shop at Safeway, because the clerks are cheerier (I know they have to be), the stores tend to be cleaner and better stocked etc. I think that it is a reasonable economic choice to pay more for better service. We all do.
My point is directed more at people who would shop at target but feel that wal-mart is beneath them. No doubt to many people the "Tar-zhay" line is definately a joke, I certainly took it as a joke, but I felt it was a pretty dumb one.
Kipp pretty much summed up my perspective on it. "Tar-zhay" is both joke and pretension, people don't say they're going to 'Wal-meert" as a joke because a. it's not funny, and b. it's not funny. "Tar-zhay" suffers as a joke because a. it's not funny, and b. it's not funny, and c. it's just dumb. Telling dumb jokes here seems like a little pretentiousness or just a lousy sense of humor. And a lousy sense of humor is just more depressing to accept.
Yes, it certainly is. As real-estate is typically greater than 60% of Wal-Mart's cost when building a new store, they save as much as possible even if this results is a less than ideal location for the store. Wal-Mart can get away with this counter-intuitive reasoning in retail because they are such a powerful draw that consumers will change their traffic patterns.
Of course this is an issue of marketing--both the in-store experience and the advertising. For example, there is no reason that Wal-Mart's ads have to be as bad as they are. It may be that slightly slicker ads and a nicer interior would turn off some especially thrifty customers attracted to Wal-Mart's low low prices image, rather than the few percent discount in reality.
You know, it's all too rare that I read something in a comment section that I take away as a really good point to remember. I think that's a good one, and one I hadn't considered so much. People don't like being thought of as poor, and people really don't like thinking of themselves as poor. It's no coincidence that Americans consistently overrate their relative position in society (poorer people tend to think they're average, average thinks they're above average, the above average upper class.)
To the extent that Wal-mart has branded themselves as cheap, some people are going to turn away just because they don't like thinking of themselves as cheap. Now that's not everybody either, but still that's a good point AC.
Of course, in the small town where I live, you shop at Walmart or you don't shop much locally. ("Locally" meaning within 30 miles.) No Target around here, the K-Mart is pitiful, and most of the small shops are just tourist traps.
As Therut said, this small-town Walmart is clean and well-organized. However, the location is terrible - there was only one spot in 30 miles with congested traffic, and that's where the new Walmart was built. Then there's the parking lot, cleverly designed to funnel all traffic in and out right across the front of the building where people are trying to walk across...
I was truly amazed at this discovery, because I had thought that the primary differences between Wal Mart and other stores, per the comments above, was price. So I looked more closely at some other display items and noted the same thing: cheap materials; cheap construction; cheap prices. I was not specifically comparing to Target, but I did notice the difference in quality when I saw similar items later at Target.
I believe the other item I looked at closely at Wal Mart was sheets. I did not wind up buying any because they simply did not have the quality that I wanted (high thread count, no ugly patterns).
I suspect that the price cutting activity in the article is on the identical cleaning products, CDs, electronics, and the like that are in both stores. But it is the products that do not overlap that matter for me.
FWIW, my wife and I jokingly refer to the Wal-mart Supercenter we shop at as "Walhalla." I don't remember which one of us started calling it that. I leave it to Joel B. to assess the funniness quotient.
I shop at Target more often because it's more convenient, but I also find that (a) Target is cleaner, (b) there's more aisle room in Target, and (c) Target has nicer housewares.
You mean The Golden Arches Bistro?
Yesterday I saw a sign -- I am quite serious -- for "gourmet water" and "gourmet ice."
(I have nothing against either attitude, incidentally. If you're willing to pay what the market demands for congenial surroundings and fewer hassles, then that's terrific. And some people genuinely enjoy getting a bargain, even when they'd be better off financially spending that bargain-hunting time to work.)
As best I can tell Walmart always has more stuff. The difference is that the items which the Target has are the "higher quality" Walmart items; it doesn't have the really cheap stuff you see everywhere at Walmart. As well, when I want to buy a prefab, walnut stained, kit table at Target it's usually in stock. Walmart probably has an equivilent on display at a cheaper price but it's touch and go as to whether it will be in stock. BTW, I've seen lots of pressed wood at our local Target; it's heavier and more solid but it's still pressed board.
Anyway, the local Walmart is a couple minutes closer than the Target and it's on this side of a mall, so I can avoid traffic. Thus, every so often, I shop at Walmart. It's funny when I stop by after leaving the office and walk in there with a suit on. I get the strangest looks from both the customers and the employees. I am clearly an alien who has no business stopping in Walmart to buy a screwdriver or cereal.
As best I can tell Walmart always has more stuff. The difference is that the items which the Target has are the "higher quality" Walmart items; it doesn't have the really cheap stuff you see everywhere at Walmart. As well, when I want to buy a prefab, walnut stained, kit table at Target it's usually in stock. Walmart probably has an equivilent on display at a cheaper price but it's touch and go as to whether it will be in stock. BTW, I've seen lots of pressed wood at our local Target; it's heavier and more solid but it's still pressed board.
Anyway, the local Walmart is a couple minutes closer than the Target and it's on this side of a mall, so I can avoid traffic. Thus, every so often, I shop at Walmart. It's funny when I stop by after leaving the office and walk in there with a suit on. I get the strangest looks from both the customers and the employees. I am clearly an alien who has no business stopping in Walmart to buy a screwdriver or cereal.
Frankly, while Target may have 25 check out lines, they never have more than 1 or 2 open. Wal Mart ALWAYS has its checkout lines staffed. The staff is nicer at Wal Mart too (when they can speak english - like they do in Georgia, generally both the clerks at Tar-zhay and Wal Mart here in DC aren't native born Americans).
Plus, Wal Mart sells guns and ammos and other fun things. Tar-zhay is owned by that super lib - Mark Dayton, Senator of Minnesotta.
I know in Norman, Oklahoma where I currently reside, the Target is at the intersection of two major streets (easily accessed), while the nearby Wal Mart is located on a highway access road that is much, much more difficult to access easily (and has some beastly traffic snarls). A similar situation existed in other places I've visited or lived.
For those of us who use the bus system, that particular Wal-Mart is twenty minutes walk from the nearest bus stop. The one on the east side of Norman, on the other hand, is near the intersection of two major streets and fairly near a bus stop.
I don't shop at Walmart these days, there's a Target a short distance from the El line closest to my apartment. To be honest, I don't even know if there's a Walmart in Chicago, they might all be in the 'burbs.
I don't see a huge deal with this 'espionage', given they can walk right in to a more or less public place to get the information. Price wars are nice for the consumers (though not for the stockholders, see, e.g., the airlines)
As "Mr. Sam" Walton expanded his chain, he always looked for the cheapest land on which to build. Target's planners were much quicker to recognize the value of location, particular when that location was an anchor position in a mall. The Dayton-Hudson image was always reflected in Target's merchandise selection, while Walmart's roots as a 5-and-10 were always evident in its own merchandising and pricing structures.
Finally...those of you who have described Walmarts as being stores with narrow aisles surrounded by too-tall sidecounters: you're likely shopping in older Walmarts. Walmart's built in the last 5 - 10 years do a much better job of making sure aisles are wide and lighting is adequate.
Does Dayton-Hudson not own it anymore?
Yes, two closest Wal Marts to my house in Georgia are both Super Wal Marts. Very well organized, with friendly staff and large wide shopping lanes. They are clean and bright and put the old and dirty and dark K-Mart out of business (though there is talk of a new Super K owned by Sears coming into town to compete).
I live in McLean, Virginia right outside of DC. We don't have either a Target or a Wal Mart in McLean, but both are within a 15 minute drive. As for the open checkout lines, Target's continued failure to staff their checkout lanes was the inspiration for Lileks Samuel's Idea (and Glenn Reynolds has also complained about it too) so I know I am not the only one who has noticed.
haven't you read all the comments comparing Walmart and Target. Wouldn't that make it at best a duopoly? What share of the retail sector does Walmart have? Probably in the single digits. Some monopoly.
I'm with those who see little difference between Walmart and Target, and I've never had a problem with the quality of goods.
Perhaps the other annoyances just sensitize you back to normal human standards - one can not escape idiot drivers whether yuppie or otherwise anywhere past one's driveway in the DC metroplex.
I have never been in a Wal-Mart, but have shopped @ various Target stores frequently and never had long delays checking out. You wanna see genuinely lousy checkout service, try Ross. (Speaking from experience of the ones in Berkeley and in SF's Mission District; the one in Seaside [near Monterey] is better, and maybe the two I mention are just particularly bad.)
"Do you love it"? Nope, but I'll deal with it for the cheap clothes anyway. And unfortunately they know that, and count on chumps like me to keep them in the black. Since I hate shopping even when the servicepeople are friendly and the ambience is calculatedly delightful (well, especially then, as it happens), I don't mind Ross's surly clerks and messy aisles; the only real peeve is the time it takes to get out of there. Be rude, be messy, just let me pay for this stuff and leave. 'Kay?
My dad and I referred to Target that way, but we also referred to the Waffle House as "Le Maison du Guafres" (as well as referring to McDonald's as "that Scottish themed restaurant").
If there's a new release DVD that I plan to buy, I go to Target as they're always on sale the first week and they have an electronics register right next to them, so rarely a line -- for older DVDs I find WalMart better for their $5.50 and $7.50 piles.
I've been able to make some decent money buying stuff on clearance at target and putting it on ebay - ie a couple playstations with LCD screens that were 75% off @ $38 that I ebayed for over $100.
I do find that Target has some pretty good, decent quality stuff, like their Michael Graves lines and Mossimo clothing. Target is more convinient for me, so I tend to shop their - but the clearance sections can make it worth the trip.
That said, I generally prefer to shop in Target unless I'm going in for one or two things that are definitely going to be cheaper at WalMart. And it's also a bit closer...and open 24 hours.
And on the price stealing technique, it's standard operating procedure on sites like Half.com and Amazon Marketplace. I bought several hundred dollars worth of CDs, DVDs, and video games that were steeply discounted the day after Thanksgiving to sell on Half. But as soon as we listed our items, other sellers had dropped theirs to a few cents below ours, and continued to do so for a week or so. We made sure to keep above our bottom line, but we definitely made much less than we would have without the immediate price comparison.
I think that the more that online shopping and store inventory listing becomes prevalent, stores are going to have to do a much better job at monitoring other outlets' prices in these areas.
Yep. Thats one of them. It takes 5 minutes from my driveway to the entrance ramp for 66 at Idylwood and Rt. 7. Its only about a 10 minute drive from there (without traffic, of course). I agree, its fairly dirty with tall and narrow aisles (and the staff doesn't speak english) but they are 1 exit past the NRA range and sell 100 round packs of .45 ACP Winchester White Box ammo for $19.00. I go there often - or at least as often as I get over to the NRA range.
BTW, the other Wal Mart is down Rt. 7 at Dulles Town Center. I hop on the toll road and am there in no time, or I can take Lewinsville Rd from Tysons down to Rt. 7 by McLean Bible Church and it takes about 15 minutes (again without traffic).
A few years ago, Dayton-Hudson Corporation changed its name to Target Corporation, because Target accounted for such a huge fraction of the corporation's total revenue.
And for those who were discussing Wal-Mart's market share: I'm quite sure that the chain cannot be fairly described as a "monopoly." Last time I checked (which was a few years ago), its total sales were greater than its next three highest-ranking competitors--combined.
Its power to influence manufacturers and others cannot be overstated. Walmart has the national number 1 brand of dog food. It's the largest retailer of toys. It's paint brand is number 1 nationally. And as was well-publicized several years ago,
recordCD producers routinely create two versions of an album: one for the real world, and a sanitized one for Wal-Mart.Want to know how to tell if you're walking into a REALLY old Walmart? The sign out front has a hyphen (Wal-Mart) instead of an asterisk (Wal*Mart). The asterisk was put in as a memorial to Sam Walton after his death (1993 or so?). And a really, really old store that hasn't been remodeled will have an orange and brown interior, instead of the now-familiar blue and red.
I'd say that "Mr. Sam" has a brand for the self-made rich that appreciate a bargain and that's Sam's Club (nee Sam's Wholesale Club). If you are serious about cost savings, you buy in bulk. If I were self-made rich and had the huge house (and therefore storage) to go with it there's a pretty good chance that I would buy staples/nonperishables in bulk at a place like Sam's or Big Lots.
As an aside, it's rare to meet an American that's "secure about their wealth." For example, to be secure in one's wealth, wouldn't one be out of debt? Locating the percentage of Americans in debt is an exercise for the reader.
I've got to agree. I know that Target is supposed to be the "liberal" store and Walmart the "conservative" one, but the fact is Walmarts are dirty and depressing whereas Target are bright, well lit, and most importantly, actually have lots of nice housewares. I also get the impression that the people at Walmart are treated very poorly. This is one thing that I think the liberal press gets right.
I used to shop at Target. Now that I have found out that they do not allow the Salvation Army Santa kettles I will take my business elsewhere. This will inconvenience me. Remember also that Target does not seem to have as many problems getting its stores built than Walmart. Is this anything to do with the fact that the owners are liberals.
Consider the case of the cheap bookcase. At Walmart one can obtain a cheap Sauder pressboard 5-shelf bookcase for $30. Target's lowest bookshelf price is more like $50, but the shelves are slightly thicker and the pressboard more dense. My Walmart-bought bookshelves have sagged over the years but my Target-bought shelves bear up under the weight of books, like one might hope.
The ubiquitous Dollar Stores around here carry the same merchandise as Walmart, but it's often false economy to buy too cheap.
One final note: my SuperWalmart's Garden Center often has really nice stock. Of course the high school kids who run the place have little idea what most of it is or how to take care of it, but if I can get there soon after they've unloaded the truck I've gotten great deals on good quality plants. I don't have any moral objection to shopping at Walmart and if they'd clean up their store, lose the crappiest of their stock and improve the skill and attitude of their employees it might be a fine place to shop. Sam's Club is.