Big Love "Threat or Menace?" Comment Board:
With the success of The Sopranos comments board below, I thought I would solicit reader comments on Big Love, the new HBO series on polygamy. What do you think?
In response to some of the comments on The Sopranos, I wanted to add that, for me, The Wire is a far more realistic depiction of crime and law enforcement. I view The Sopranos as more surrealist than realistic in a highly (for me) aesthetically pleasing way. Deadwood, in contrast, I view as Shakespearean in its investment in dialog, which includes the inability to understand some of it without a quick backup on the Tivo™ to hear a line again. It is even better in second viewing when you do not have to concern yourself with the plot and can focus on the words. Then there is Entourage. . . an awesome show. These are my four favorite series.
Do I sound like I watch too much TV? After all, there is also 24, the amazing House, Rome, and the far inferior but still entertaining, Prison Break, to keep up with. Well, perhaps. But the Tivo™ allows me to be very selective. [In response to a comment, I have been and remain a genuine Tivo™ owner since the product was first introduced.] Choose the shows to which I want to commit and keep up with them late in the evening when I am too drained to do anything else. And the other nice thing is that there are new episodes of different series throughout the year, not just from Fall to Spring, so there are at any one time probably no more 3-4 shows to watch per week.
This may well be the new Golden Age of television, with the medium finally being used to accomplish story telling that cannot be done in the traditional "series" format or the traditional 2-hour movie format.
In response to some of the comments on The Sopranos, I wanted to add that, for me, The Wire is a far more realistic depiction of crime and law enforcement. I view The Sopranos as more surrealist than realistic in a highly (for me) aesthetically pleasing way. Deadwood, in contrast, I view as Shakespearean in its investment in dialog, which includes the inability to understand some of it without a quick backup on the Tivo™ to hear a line again. It is even better in second viewing when you do not have to concern yourself with the plot and can focus on the words. Then there is Entourage. . . an awesome show. These are my four favorite series.
Do I sound like I watch too much TV? After all, there is also 24, the amazing House, Rome, and the far inferior but still entertaining, Prison Break, to keep up with. Well, perhaps. But the Tivo™ allows me to be very selective. [In response to a comment, I have been and remain a genuine Tivo™ owner since the product was first introduced.] Choose the shows to which I want to commit and keep up with them late in the evening when I am too drained to do anything else. And the other nice thing is that there are new episodes of different series throughout the year, not just from Fall to Spring, so there are at any one time probably no more 3-4 shows to watch per week.
This may well be the new Golden Age of television, with the medium finally being used to accomplish story telling that cannot be done in the traditional "series" format or the traditional 2-hour movie format.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Big Love "Threat or Menace?" Comment Board:
- Sopranos Comment Board
Anyway, the performances were great, and it has the makings of an engaging high tension drama. I'm on board.
My biggest criticism has to due with HBO's marketing: They really put it up as some sort of comedy. While it does blend in some very clever, albeit dry, humor, it most certainly NOT comedy.
I know that the producers somehow believe that the show is going to promote new ways of looking at "the family," but based on what I saw it's going to reinforce the idea that one man and one woman is quite enough, thank you.
Btw, I am NOT against polygamy for competent consenting adults and where the legalresponsibilites (inheritance, divorce, children etc etc) are considered.
The state constitutional convention skirted it somewhat, by inserting a constitutional provision that children born out of wedlock be treated equally with those born in it (which required some modifications to the Uniform Probate Code when it was enacted here).
No, the non-pilot-season-opener episodes are not likely to have an informational splash before the closing credits.
Pullman and Tripplehorn are very sympathetic, Sevigny is excellent and disturbing, Seyfried as the oldest daughter is very good, and the supporting cast - family and Roman - are wild.
I expect the show to be showered with awards.
This is not intended to be silly, but wouldn't this act be unconstitutional under Dred Scot? I mean, the slavery part of Dred Scot was overruled by the Civil War and 13th Amendment, of course, but what about the reasoning behind the "Missouri Compromise is unconstitutional" part? Can Congress constitutionally withhold rights to some states that are given to others?
Nip/Tuck is an entertaining show, but I hardly can put it in the category of Sopranos, The Wire, and some others. I'm very interested to see how Thief turns out (another FX show forthcoming). I loved Andre Braugher on Homicide, I think it's got a good shot to be added to some of the other quality stuff on FX.
No matter how great or "it's not TV, it's HBO" a series is, a pilot episode needs to hit all those points.
The only pilot episode I've ever seen that managed to intelligently and artistically evade that basic pattern was "Lost." The official name of its pilot episode, as is the case with most TV series, was "Pilot," but it used that generic name AND made it fit the actual plot of the pilot episode. The main characters' goal in that episode was to find the pilot of Oceanic Flight 815. And they did. He provided some scary but necessary exposition. And then he got killed by the "monster." (Is it really a "monster"? Recent episodes imply that it is not.)
"Lost" in my opinion is the best series currently airing on television.
But I believe "The Sopranos" is a close second.
"Big Love" could reach the level of "Lost" and "The Sopranos." But we need to see how Harry Dean Stanton's character develops before we can say for certain whether it could reach those heights. Otherwise, it'll just be "Desperate Housewives," except all the housewives are married to the same guy.
I'm cautiously optimistic about "Big Love." The pilot was well acted, and the writing showed enough spark to prove that it could be a very good series.
We shall see what happens.
But is it a genuine Tivo or is it a DVR supplied by a cable company or a satellite service? Poor Tivo -- more use the name than the service!
Shatner, Spader, and Bergen are amazing together
I guess the moral of the story is that a man can live with several women and father children with them out-of-wedlock, but he DARE not go through any RELIGIOUS marriage cermonies!
I turned off the pilot for Julia Louis-Dreyfus's new sitcom after about 10 minutes last night. CBS needs to find something to go between Two and One-Half Men and CSI Miami.
And Questioner, those who officiate at religious ceremonies are usually authorized to also perform legally binding ceremonies. So usually two birds (legal ceremony &religious ceremony) get killed with one stone.
Are you a fan of the British sitcom? Also, have you seen Trailer Park Boys?
I've never really understand why people use the more general term to mean the more specific one - what about polyandry, line marriages, polygon marriages, and so on? People have no imagination.
Just to be clear, by "polygon marriages" I mean a structure like this:
a--b
| |
c--d
At least for some of the Latter Day Saint break away sects, some members who engage in polygamy do so with their underage nieces -- the law does come down on those folks. (Not to be taken as a blanket condemnation of all polygamous situations across various religious beliefs).
Wire
Deadwood
Rescue Me
Rome
24
Lost
Entourage
Nip Tuck
The Office
A pilot serves one purpose only: to sell the concept, in prototype form, to the network. (In most cases, they've already been sold enough on the "pitch", which generally includes a pilot script, to put up the money to produce the pilot.)
Generally, pilots are cheaply produced, won't well fit the story arc of the series (mostly due to changes demanded by the network execs), and are never aired. Frequently, networks will order one or more additional pilots before they give the go-ahead for the series.
That's Ricky Gevais; he's very big in England.
I'm not sure that you are accurate.
I believe what you're describing is the exception, not the rule.
Networks do engage in the practice of taking 22 minute sitcom pilot scripts and asking writers to convert them to 15 minute pilot "presentations" for production. See the short-lived Bravo series "Situation: Comedy" for more information on how pilot presentations work. Those 15 minute pilot "presentations" never see the light of day if the series is picked up; usually such "presentations" never get green-lighted to become series anyway.
But most full 22 minute pilots that get green-lighted do become the first episode of the series, with the same acting, writing, directing. What changes between March/April and September/October (when the first episode airs on television) are the post-production elements, such as music, ADR, and opening credit sequences.
Occasionally some scenes are added or deleted. However, pilots generally are not reshot from scratch. But there are some pilots that are, and those pilots usually become the first episodes of series that serve as midseason replacements.
For example, the very short-lived sitcom "A.U.S.A." which starred Scott Foley as an Assistant US Attorney, was originally shot as a single-camera sitcom (pitch: "Scrubs" but with an A.U.S.A. instead of an internal medicine resident).
However, NBC decided to have the pilot episode of "A.U.S.A." be reshot as a standard multi-camera sitcom (mainly to save on production costs). The new pilot episode, however, included single-camera sequences that were part of the original pilot that NBC commissioned.
NBC aired eight episodes of "A.U.S.A." from February to April of 2003 before officially cancelling the series.
Stanley Kurtz just did a pretty good NRO article on the Canadian polygamy movement. As a libertarian, I don't agree with his predisposition (he's against it). But, as usual, he makes a good case.
Brilliant.
In Utah, it is a third-degree felony to perform a marriage without a marriage license. Utah Code Ann. 30-1-13. It is also a third-degree felony to "knowingly, with or without a license, solemnize[] a marriage of a minor prohibited by law" and a class A misdemeanor to "knowingly, with or without a license, solemnize[] a marriage between two adults prohibited by law . . . ." Utah Code Ann. 30-1-15.
30-1-15 was passed in 2001 and was specifically targetted at those who perform polygamous marriages. I am not, however, aware of any prosecutions under this section. In any case, these two laws only target those performing the marriages and not the actual participants who could be prosecuted under the laws mentioned earlier.
The nagging thing that won’t stop buzzing in the back of my brain though is that whole Joseph Smith translation of the golden tablets thing. The ones that vanished right after. It is just so L.Ron Hubbardesc...if you know what I mean. That and the Masons. Can anyone say Secret Society? Can anyone say Sacred Geometry? Can anyone say Plato? Give me a Plato...
Chorus : All hail Plato! All hail Plato! All hail Plato!
As far as polygyny goes(homage to SLS 1L) what’s the point of an all male secret society if you can’t have money and bitches? Or am I mistaken and the woman are/were allowed multiple husbands?
(Subject to correction by Trekkies.)
Mr. Spock was a character in the pilot, and was played by Leonard Nimoy. As far as I can remember, however, the only other actor from the pilot who went on to be in the regular Star Trek cast was Majel Barrett, who in the pilot played an unnamed first officer known as Number One (foreshadowing Commander Riker in TNG). In the regular series, Majel Barrett played Nurse Chapel. Barrett was Gene Roddenberry's girlfriend at the time of the pilot, and Barrett and Roddenberry eventually got married. Majel Barrett also played Counselor Troi's mother in TNG, and was also the voice of the ship computer in TOS, TNG, and DS9 (as opposed to the DS9 station computer voice, which I believe was voiced by Jodi Durand).
Wow, if I know all this, maybe I am a Star Trek expert, aka Trekkie. :-)
No self-respecting Trekkie would get that wrong -- so I was right at the beginning of my 3.14.06 6:09 pm post; I'm not a Trekkie after all. :-)
SCOTUS upheld the requirement that Utah outlaw polygamy in the late 1870s and 1880s (after Dred Scott, the Civil War and the 13-15 Amendments).
It is just a joking response to the above comment by Duncan Frissell.
J.J. Abrams will disappoint you. Enjoy it, but don't invest in it. He's making it up as he goes along and eventually that will start to bug you. Contradictions will be made, plot lines forgotten and never resurrected, and eventually you'll realize everything you liked about the show has changed. I have been there before you, and I do not want others to needlessly suffer my fate.
Signed:
A fan of the first two seasons of ALIAS.
I think, particularly in view of Quarterican's comments re: Abrams, Lost and Alias above, that it's a bit premature to say this. The storytelling American TV shows feature right now doesn't have a real wholeness to it, I think -- they still have a lot of the old serial about them, and the story-writers end up just making stuff up as they go along.
I think the argument for "story telling that cannot be done in the traditional 'series' format or the traditiona 2-hour movie format" is much stronger for East Asian TV dramas -- from Korea, Japan, and the Chinese states. There, the best TV programs (usually romances in Korea, and crime dramas in Japan, I think) are structured the way a story traditionally has been structured, with a a beginning, a middle, and an end. These shows run for a single season, usually, 10-20 episodes or so (although some Chinese series are planned out to 50 or 100 episodes, I understand), and because of that limitation, the creators can plan things out in a way that they can't for a US series, that faces pressures to keep going and going and going as long as the ratings remain high, and so eventually "jumps the shark," I think the phrase is. But at the same time, because they have 10-20 hours to tell their story, they can achieve a lot more than you could in a traditional serial, where the plot never moved, or in a traditional movie, which is so much shorter.
So yeah -- Asian Dramas. That's the TV of the future.
Yes.
Edmunds-Tucker Act
LDS Official Declaration #1
Constitutional challenges to Utah's anti-polygamy statutes
Relevant Utah legal codes
The Latter-day Saints in the mid-19th century weren't particularly interested in having the US federal authorities recognize their marriages (though officiation was required, for legal as well as social reasons.) The US federal authorities were extremely interested in prohibiting, breaking apart, and preventing the marriages of those who were living in polygamous relationships. When I was a full-time student at Ohio State, I worked for a time in a building named after the Morrill — the sponsor of the first anti-bigamy act in Congress. The building has a twin, named for the president who signed the act into law — Abraham Lincoln. To be fair, the act was mostly about land grants. If I'm not mistaken, the buildings were so named because the land grant provision allowed OSU to be built.
Anyawy, it's a bit of a pain to prove a solemnization charge, since you need cooperative witnesses. Cohabitation, now as in the 19th century, is a bit easier to manage. Particularly when you're holding a few young teenage girls hostage in a compound all the time, as tends to be the case in the big time polygamy cases I've seen prosecuted (not many such cases are prosecuted.)
Re: Star Trek:
The Captain Christopher Pike episode was the original pilot, to which NBC said, basically, "make it more actiony, don't have a woman in charge, and get rid of the guy with the ears." See Wikipedia. They marginalized Majel Barrett, and ditched Jeffrey Hunter, but retained Leonard Nimoy, woot! Ahem, yeah. Love the ears. Elves and Hobbits and Vulcans, yay!
Finally, Lost and Battlestar Galactica rock. Seven month hiatuses (I'm looking at you, Ron Moore) do not rock, but what can you do. I don't have HBO, and I don't want it, so I can't speak to most of the rest of those shows. From what I've heard, I'm glad I don't get to see The Sopranos. It sounds quite... ummm... what's the opposite of uplifting? That.
I love America,
Her secret's safe with me!
And I know her wicked ways
The parts you'll never see.
Oh Supergirl, you'll be my Supermodel
Although you have a reputation.
Can I afford to move above my station?
I'm not the only heart you've conquered.
I love America,
But boy can she be cruel.
And I know how tall she is
Without her platform shoes.
Oh Supergirl, you'll be my Supermodel
Although at times it might seem awkward.
Don't run away, oh don't you recognize me?
I'm not the only heart you've conquered.
I kissed America,
When she was fleecing me.
And she knows I understand
That she needs to be free.
I miss America,
And sometimes she does too.
And sometimes I think of her
When she is fucking you.
(I love America,
Siempre Confiado en ti
I love America,
Porque me trates asi?)
Oh Supergirl, you'll be my Supermodel
Although your pants are around your ankles.
And when you're done, I'll be your Dirty Harry.
It will be just like in the movies.
Oh Supergirl, you'll be my Supermodel
Although at time it might seem awkward.
Don't look away, I'll be your teenage fanclub.
I'm not the only heart you've conquered.
The Shield is available on Netflix. My wife and I spent most of last summer catching up on the first three seasons.
I think I'm going to do that with 24 this summer. Now that I am out of law school, I can finally watch a little TV again.
I think it is important to note that while JJ Abrams co-created "Lost," he is not a show-runner of "Lost." The executive producers who run the day to day operations of "Lost" and oversee the "Lost" writing staff are Damon Lindelof and Carleton Cuse. Lindelof and Cuse are more disciplined writers than JJ Abrams, and clearly are invested in creating a fictional universe that will at least make good-faith attempts to be internally consistent. (In fact, I have offered some theories behind the "Lost" universe which I have posted at some "Lost" online forums. To sum up the lengthy theories in two words: Watch Libby.)
As far as I can tell the only continuing influence JJ Abrams has on "Lost" is the character of Kate (who is more or less a Sydney Bristow doppelganger). But it isn't clear if JJ Abrams even has any substantive input in shaping Kate's continuing story arc. The panoply of key characters (Jack, Kate, Locke, Hurley, Sawyer, Sayid, Eko, AnaLucia and others) helps give Lindelof and Cuse the freedom to escape the JJ Abrams "Alias" problem.
So I like to think that I have some reason to be optimistic about "Lost," which I believe is currently the best television series currently airing.
Thank you.
OMG dude, give it up! As in spill the beans. I've always thought Libby was kind of hot under all that dirt. Then she did something extra stupid while drinking and driving and I figured they would kill her off soon. Now you are clearly suggesting AT LEAST she is an Other. Perhaps MUCH MORE? She is not really falling for Hurley??! The shame!
I'm a big fan of Cynthia Watros, the actress who plays Libby. She was great on "Drew Carey" when she joined the sitcom late in its run (i.e., when virtually no one was watching "Drew Carey" anymore). Ms. Watros did drink and drive in Hawaii, but she has been complete and upfront with her apologies; I believe she and her character have a future on "Lost."
The Libby character, in my opinion, is not who she seems to be. She may work for Dharma, or she may not. She may be a secret "good guy," or she may be one of the baddest of the baddies. Only time will tell.
But it is my contention that there is significant circumstantial evidence (based on prior episodes) that Libby is not like the other "Lost" survivors. Because I do not want to clog the "Big Love" thread with "Lost" theories, if you want to read more (a lot more) I recommend you find various posts I've written at Lost-Forum within the last couple of weeks (in the "Libby character thread" and other places).
Like you SenatorX, I am really looking forward to seeing what happens next on "Lost." :-)
It's generally accepted that Jeff Hunter was unhappy with the changes in the show. But why, exactly, he was replaced by William Shatner is a matter of great controversy. It is treated in some detail here.
Besides Number One, Christine Chapel, Lwaxana Troi, the voice of several different Federation computers, the Announcer on Voyager: Caretaker: pt. 2, and the Narrator on Voyager: Workforce: pt. 2, Majel Barrett Roddenberry has been the voice of several characters in Star Trek: The Animated Series. Including all these, she has done more named characters than any other actor in the Trek franchise. I covered this in one of my Entertainment Trivia questions here.
And Taeyoung J.: The classic example of "storytelling" in American TV is Babylon 5, where J. Michael Straczynski went into the project with the whole story arc already planned out. To a lesser extent, this can be applied to The Shield, as, although each episode has it's own sub-plot, some master story arc seems to be taking shape.
Kevin L. Connors, Editor
3.15.2006 3:31pm
Thanks for the detailed Star Trek information.
And yes, "Star Trek" is a classic example of the exception that proves the rule regarding pilots.
(The general rule is that most full pilots that get green-lighted become the first episode of the series, with the same acting, writing, and directing. What changes between March/April and September/October (when the first episode airs on television) are the post-production elements, such as music, ADR, and opening credit sequences. While some scenes may be added or deleted, pilots generally are not reshot from scratch. See my above 3.14.06 4:33 pm comment for details.)
What is interesting about Star Trek TOS's "The Cage" is that the episode ever ended up on the air. Pilots that end up being recast often never see the light of day. One recent example was NBC's star-crossed attempt to make an American version of the BBC hit "Coupling" in 2003. That original pilot included Breckin Meyer as Jeff (as well as different actresses playing Susan and Sally). That original pilot never aired (and in all likelihood never will air). NBC cancelled the American version of "Coupling" after just four episodes.
For what it's worth, I am a big fan of the BBC version "Coupling," and the wonderful Sarah Alexander (who played Susan on BBC's "Coupling") will be starring in NBC's new sitcom "Teachers," which premieres Tuesday, March 28 at 9:30/8:30 Central.
The math, as I heard it, breaks down this way. In any given year, a major network will take about 300 pitch meetings from writers. On the basis of this, they'll commission about 80 pilot scripts. They'll read them, and select 25 or so to be shot. After reviewing these, around 5 shows will get slotted for premiere, with another 3 or so held back as midseason replacements. Of all of these, about 2 shows will still be on next season.
And as for writers and directors, they get changed more often in series TV than prices change at the gas pump.
In my opinion, "Wonderfalls" is an example of a midseason replacement with an unaired pilot. Most series with unaired pilots and reshot first episodes become midseason replacements. The American version of "Coupling" was aired in the fall despite the need to reshoot the pilot from scratch (with a new script and some new cast members) because NBC had invested a great deal into it; they hoped it would become the next "Friends," but they were sorely mistaken.
(Fox aired "Wonderfalls" from March to December of 2004. That it managed to cross two different TV seasons from its position as a midseason replacement makes "Wonderfalls" fairly atypical.)
Most series do not have unaired pilots. The "Friends" pilot (aka "The One Where It All Began") was the first episode aired of the series on September 22, 1994. The pilot of "Everybody Loves Raymond" aired as its first episode on September 13, 1996. "According to Jim" aired its pilot as its first episode on October 3, 2001. The "St. Elsewhere" pilot aired as the series's first episode on October 26, 1982. The "ER" pilot (aka "24 Hours") aired as the series's first episode on September 19, 1994 (the second episode of "ER" aired on September 22, 1994 along with the pilot of "Friends"). The pilot of "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation" aired as its first episode on October 6, 2000.
"Friends," "Everybody Loves Raymond," "According to Jim," "St. Elsewhere," "ER," and "CSI" are just six of many examples that prove the rule regarding pilots. While post-production elements are almost always added, and while scenes may be added or deleted, it is generally not the case that pilots are reshot from scratch.
And yes, absolutely, writers and directors get changed frequently in series television. In fact, it is rare for a television series to have the director be the same throughout the run of the series. Moreover, writers regularly enter and exit series as if they were going through a revolving door. Also, it is often the case that creators at one point or another in the run of the series eventually cease having anything to do with the day-to-day running of the show; cf. my discussion of "Lost" in an earlier comment.
It is even the case that show runners are replaced early on by network fiat. "Commander-in-Chief" is the most recent example of this phenomenon. ABC brought Steven Bochco on to replace Rod Lurie (the creator) as the show runner early on because Lurie was not pumping out episodes fast enough.
To briefly reiterate: it is rare for pilots to be reshot from scratch. The shows that do have pilots reshot from scratch often end up being midseason replacements.
---------
P.S. Re "Wonderfalls" -- it is my contention that this series suffered from being perceived as a "Joan of Arcadia" clone, even though the tone of "Wonderfalls" was radically different from the tone of "Joan of Arcadia," and even though "Wonderfalls" technically was developed at the same time as "Joan of Arcadia." Fox dragged their feet putting "Wonderfalls" on the air, and its ratings suffered as a result.
While the premises of the two series sound similar, the sensibilities of Todd Holland and Bryan Fuller (the creators of "Wonderfalls") are vastly different from the sensibilities of Barbara Hall (creator of "Joan of Arcadia"). In my opinion, both shows were great in their own ways, and both shows sadly met an unfortunate and untimely demise. "Dead Like Me" (another Bryan Fuller creation) is also similar to "Wonderfalls" and "Joan of Arcadia," and likewise also deserved to last longer than it did. I suppose that's just the way the network programming bounces. But these series still deserve to be watched and remembered.
I tell you though, JLR, we could go on here playing "battling anecdotes" ad infinitum, and never reach any sort of resolution, as each series takes its own course. The individual elements of production are all pretty much the same, but just where the breaks fall is theoretically just about infinite.
But, although we have a difference of opinion on this one small matter, I am adequately impressed with your knowledge of the way the business works (assuming that, like me you are a laymen here).
On that note, and considering that this is an LA-centered blawg, I'm surprised that we haven't had any entertainment lawyers chime in here. :)
Kevin L. Connors, Editor
The Daily Brief
Indeed, finding a truly dominant pattern regarding pilots is difficult. In my view, the best way to describe pilot season is by using the following quote from Hamlet: "though this be madness, yet there is method in't."
And for what it's worth I love trading anecdotes. :-) If I may ask did you ever watch "Dead Like Me"? I enjoyed that Showtime series and found its cancellation to be premature.
On the plus side, Showtime has put on the very well-written and well-acted "Weeds." So I guess it all evens out.