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Surrender of Jericho Terrorists:

"Our prison is surrounded on all sides by Israelis. They are asking us over loudspeaker to come out," Ahed Abu Ghoulmi, one of the targeted prisoners. "We will not come out under any circumstances."

"We are not going to surrender. We are going to face our destiny with courage," Sa'adat later told the Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera.

Several hours later, they all surrendered. Guess martyrdom is just for the patsies, not for "leaders" who can hope to eventually be released in a prisoner exchange.

Falconetti:
Shouldn't this behavior be encouraged rather than mocked?
3.14.2006 9:45pm
WB:
....second!
3.14.2006 9:48pm
Cornellian (mail):
Gray haired 65 year old Muslim cleric speaks to naive, uneducated, unworldy 22 year old, sings the praises of "martyrdom" arising from dying while killing others, of the paradise that awaits etc.

Now maybe I'm just too logical, or too secular or something, but when I envisage the above scenario, I can't help but wonder why the 22 year old isn't saying (or at least thinking) "yeah buddy, easy for you to say but you're an old guy, you haven't got much time left anyway, but you want me to go kill myself while you keep on living? If you're so sure about this paradise, why aren't you the one out there doing the suicide bombing instead of trying to talk me into it?"
3.14.2006 10:00pm
Average Joe (mail):
From the article:

A tense, gunfire-punctuated nine-hour IDF siege of a Jericho prison complex ended after dark on Tuesday with the abrupt
surrender of Ahmed Sa'adat and five other Palestinian militants.

Sa'adat, leader of the Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine, is believed to have ordered the assassination of cabinet minister Rehavam Ze'evi in a Jerusalem hotel in 2001.

One of the other militants was Fuad Shobaki, the alleged mastermind of an illegal mass weapons shipment to the Palestinian Authority in 2002.

These people sound like real seriously bad guys. I am glad that they are in custody.
3.14.2006 10:15pm
MikeWDC (mail):
Hm, maybe after thinking it over, they realized that the Israelis would like nothing better than to kill them. And would kill them, with any excuse. At least by surrendering (from the Palestinians perspective) they deprived them of that.
3.14.2006 10:18pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
I think the US and the Israelis are foolish not to execute terrorists. Every terrorist you hold in prison provides an incentive to kidnap someone for a trade. Even Thatcher who said she would never negotiate with terrorists did just that. The pressure from families and public opinion is just too much.
3.14.2006 10:48pm
Mr. Accountability:
Hmm...I count two deleted comments (not including this one - yet). Did I miss any?
3.14.2006 10:59pm
Reader (mail):
Lying should be encouraged? Bernstein is making fun of them for lying - you think that is to be encouraged? Or, you think we should overlook the fact that they tried to act like men, when really they knew all along they would give in (and subsequently - almost certainly - turn in their comrades), because ultimately they did the right thing and helped Israel? It's a fairly stark choice - which do you think should be encouraged?
3.14.2006 11:04pm
frankcross (mail):
Odd that martyrdom is considered acting "like men."

I assumed the point of David's post was not that they should be martyrs but that they should be condemned for convincing suicide bombers to become martyrs, in light of their own behavior.
3.14.2006 11:11pm
lawprofcommentator (mail):
M.A., don't you have anything better to do with your time?
3.14.2006 11:59pm
Lev:
Did they surrender because they knew all the "virgins" were..."used up"...or because they knew they could no longer...perform...with the "virgins"?
3.15.2006 12:32am
Mr. Accountability:
lpc, no (and the only reason I posted is that I had reads about Prof Bernstein deleting comments, but had never really witnessed it, so when I saw one of the first commenters ask rhetorically when the comments for this thread would be deleted, I thought I would come back and check...and surprise, that comment was deleted (along with one other); I don't mean to be a pest...I will disappear now)
3.15.2006 1:25am
Brandonks (mail) (www):
Have you been following the slow to emerge story on how over 400 Al-Qaeda members infiltrated the Green Zone security force with the intent of storming the US and UK embassies to kidnap our diplomats? It came within a hair of working.

More Details on Al-Qaeda Plot for Embassy Attack
3.15.2006 1:38am
logicnazi (mail) (www):
Ohh c'mon this is really being unfair.

First of all martyrdom is usually encouraged when the death will serve what (they) see as some purpose. It is quite unlikely that any resistance at the prison could have sown chaos or fear in israel.

Secondly, it is perfectly rational for leaders to value their lives more highly than those of the front line troops. It is no more hypocritical for the leaders of these islamic movements (who might think they can still serve as symbols from prison or get released later) to think their own lives are more important to the movement than that of their followers than it is for the president to let the secret service usher him out of the room first when there is a threat.

Sure I agree that in all likelihood alot of this was about saving their own skins there is a perfectly rational case to treat leaders of a movement with a great deal of institutional wisdom differently than 20 something recruits.
3.15.2006 4:29am
Lucy (mail) (www):

Gray haired 65 year old Muslim cleric speaks to naive, uneducated, unworldy 22 year old, sings the praises of "martyrdom" arising from dying while killing others, of the paradise that awaits etc.

Now maybe I'm just too logical, or too secular or something, but when I envisage the above scenario, I can't help but wonder why the 22 year old isn't saying (or at least thinking) "yeah buddy, easy for you to say but you're an old guy, you haven't got much time left anyway, but you want me to go kill myself while you keep on living? If you're so sure about this paradise, why aren't you the one out there doing the suicide bombing instead of trying to talk me into it?"



This is logical. But when you are a 22 year old confined within a 15 mile radius, you don't really see much hope... I know, I am one of these people. Read my blog to see what happens to me and in my city. Nablus, home of hamas... urghhhh.
3.15.2006 5:38am
hey (mail):
Lucy: if anyone in your area actually wants to improve the lives of their families and neighbours there's a very easy solution. Attack Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Fatah. Kill those evil theocratic genocidal idiots, and you won't have problems with the Israelis. The only problem with this strategy, of course, is that it doesn't end in the genocide of the Jews, which is a fatal problem in the eyes of so many Palestinians.
3.15.2006 8:15am
WB:
I think it's funny that the article is about IDF breaking into a prison to arrest inmates.
3.15.2006 8:26am
Walk It (mail):

Gloating is not becoming to this blog, Mr. Kopel.

Say, when is Israel going to bomb Iran? Wasn't it one of the conspirators here who first proclaimed that? Still coming, or y'all chickening out???

(see, gloating begets ugliness!)
3.15.2006 9:41am
Walk It (mail):

I can see where you might be feeling a lil macho on this overdone inflammatory military action though. (MACHO MACHO MAN... day after Purim eh, pump it up!)
3.15.2006 9:43am
Walk It (mail):

"I am glad that they are in custody."

Well, they were in custody before. No prison riots that forced such an invasion.

Just a (denied but we all aren't that stupid) deal for the American and British jailers to walk off the job for "fears" of their security (oh no -- they're using cell phones in there! I'm frightened enough to leave this prison unsecured) that allowed allowed foreign soldiers (Israelis) to come in in 30 minutes guns a blazin'. (they'd been expecting the "walk off the job" action all weekend and had planned the attack.

Mr. Kopel,
I am curious though. Are you really PROUD of such a post, or such deadly actions? Does "thou shalt not kill" really mean so little overall? Surely these are not all necessary killings (Palestinian guards, policemen). Be careful what you wish for -- I liked it better when you used reason first and fought only as a last resort. I guess having the American taxpayers finance your military equipment (thanks AIPAC) kind of makes things different, especially when you've gone for so many years as a people without playing GI Joes.

Admit it. Feels kinda mighty to put on the uniform and have that kind of power, eh? Killing is a high, an ultimate buzz. Just be careful, because like I say, I think it goes against the main rules laid down by the big guy. You still believe in him more than the weaponry?
3.15.2006 9:51am
Walk It (mail):

HeHe...

Maybe somebody can do a funny cartoon of this one, and put the virgin jokes in there too! So funny honey.
3.15.2006 9:53am
DavidBernstein (mail):
I'm the poster, not Kopel. The biblical injunction is, inn Hebrew, thou shalt not murder, not thou shalt not kill (tirtzak, which means murder). Finally, the PA (both Abbas and Hamas) had announced its intention to let murderers free. If we're into biblical injunctions, the Israeli gov't was fulfilling "justice, justice, thou shalt pursue."
3.15.2006 10:36am
Fishbane (mail):
Not to excuse the terrorists, but I have to agree that the tone is unbecoming.

They surrendered, so they're cowards.

Had the "held out", I'm sure that would have made them either insane or fanatics.

What's a poor terrorist gotta do to get a little respect?
3.15.2006 10:59am
Walk It (mail):

I know that Iran promise came from you, not Kopel. I remember things like that.

So. Is it still on? (or should I be like Kopel and start with the Bawk, Bawk, Bawk kinda talk?) For what it's worth, I don't think the American public will back you. The current Middle East military attack didn't go as well as planned.

It's interesting to have such insider perspective though. (If you'd care to share more about how you know such things, I'm all ears). Makes me listen more closely to our president's recent speech regarding all the IED's and violence in Iraq coming from Iran. Is it setting up a connection, so we will support Israel's coming actions?

Just be careful. I don't think the American public is dumb as you might think, and I don't think we're going to bite again on military intervention based on dubious connections.
3.15.2006 11:08am
Walk It (mail):
PS.

You have a funny funny way of defining justice. Finally, since I don't know any native Hebrew speakers, but one girl who was studying:

Is it true that there is no Hebrew word for "accountability"? Truly, that is what she learned, and she is Jewish by blood.
3.15.2006 11:10am
Ken Arromdee (mail):
They surrendered, so they're cowards.

Had the "held out", I'm sure that would have made them either insane or fanatics.


It isn't "they surrendered, so they're cowards". It's "they surrender, so they're cowards by their own standards". They didn't *have* to have standards which call surrender cowardice, so there's no catch-22.
3.15.2006 11:15am
Jeek:
Abbas calls the raid an "unforgivable crime".

And they're not just mad at Israel:

Palestinian anger over the raid lingered Wednesday as a protest strike was held. Palestinians closed shops across the West Bank and Gaza amid an outburst of anti-Western sentiment. In Gaza, schools opened, but most students left early. Nablus residents observed a general strike.

The raid set off unprecedented Palestinian reprisals against foreigners because U.S. and British wardens, who had supervised the Jericho prisoners under an unusual 2002 arrangement left their posts just before Israeli troops arrived. Gunmen vandalized Western offices and kidnapped 11 foreigners, including an American university professor. All have now been released.
3.15.2006 11:25am
Walk It (mail):
Jeek:

To any neutral observer (Kopel has a vested interest here), this was a very underhanded action.

Imagine if, here in the States, one group of prison guards "walked off" the job, which allowed another group with their own interests to storm a prison? That's what happened here.

If their release was imminent, if there had been formal requests made for their transfer, etc. etc. But there was no appeal to logic, just the strongest "win."

You say justice. I say Golden Rule. Fear of what might happen can't continually be used to break precedent and processes of law. Put the shoe on the other foot. Still ok to win by force? All's fair in love and war?

This is an action, which if it must be done, should be done quietly and not with boast. Kopel doesn't seem to get it, and I'm betting Bernstein and a whole lot of that demographic is cheering like their team just scored a toachdown, or home run might be more appropriate.

How much do you want to bet those 6 will be "tortured" in Israeli prisons? That high road is getting further and further in the distance in your pursuit of "justice". Get a clue before you boast and gloat.
3.15.2006 11:50am
Mike BUSL07 (mail):
ahrayuti'yut - that's hebrew for accountability.

So, yeah, if you call someone an "anti-semite," do you lose the argument, even if the person clearly is in fact an anti-semite?
3.15.2006 12:18pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
I think "Walk It" is Pat Buchanan writing under a pseudonym.
3.15.2006 12:25pm
Mike BUSL07 (mail):
Walk It,

This is an action, which if it must be done, should be done quietly and not with boast. Kopel doesn't seem to get it, and I'm betting Bernstein and a whole lot of that demographic is cheering like their team just scored a toachdown, or home run might be more appropriate.

I think a society has every right to cheer the capture of those who would seek to destroy it, and have tried with some success. There is no shame in capturing murderers, no guilt in it.

oh, and "that demographic?" way to go.
3.15.2006 12:26pm
Walk It (mail):
Yup, and I think Bernstein is .........

(this comment self censored by some one with a bit more class than Mr. "We're Bombin' Iran Soon" Chestbeater Bernstein.)
3.15.2006 1:18pm
Walk It (mail):

But you never answered the insider dope question, Mr. B

When do the bombs fall? (checkin my calendar for the next religious holiday.)
3.15.2006 1:19pm
Walk It (mail):


Say Mike,

You can talk big -- "There is no shame in capturing murderers, no guilt in it." But who is paying and dying for it? Don't raise the stake if you're not ready to play at the higher levels.
3.15.2006 1:21pm
Walk It (mail):
Lest you think me dumb, my friend's story was indeed true. I found this online by Anat Hoffman:

"But there are words of great importance that have only recently been created in Hebrew. The Hebrew word for: accountability, ahrayuti'yut,is so new that the vast majority of Israelis have never heard it. The Hebrew word for integrity, yosh'rah,is also new, and like accountability it signifies a novel social construct, which is not known well enough here in Israel. But above all, we are missing a Hebrew word for pluralism. It is pluralism that connotes, more than any other social value, an element of moderation and restraint needed to counter the blazing winds of fundamentalism in the Middle East.

Interesting letter.
3.15.2006 1:32pm
Dutch (mail):
Wow, this is quite the eye-opener of a thread.
3.15.2006 1:49pm
BU2L (mail):
Walk it,

First of all, the argument that one needs to serve in the military to be a patriot is bulls$$t, deconstructed too many times for me to parrot my betters here.

Second, I served for two years in the Army, 10th MTN Div. So, umm, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
3.15.2006 3:06pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
As an agent of the international Jewish conspiracy, who by this fact has access to all of the Israeli government's future plans, I'm afraid I'm not at liberty to disclose when Israel will attack Iran.

But I'm tired of responding to prejudiced nonsense, future posts from Walk It will be deleted.
3.15.2006 4:00pm
Walk It (mail):


But really,

why did you post that bit about Israel bombing Iran?

You put it up, not me, my friend. You can't delete that fact, like you have my most recent post. People read it then, and surely some remembered it like me.
3.15.2006 5:17pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
OK, end of thread. It was a prediction, the way one might predict, Hillary Clinton is likely to be the next Democratic presidential nominee if one follows politics closely, or one might claim that Microsoft stock will rise if one follows the stock market. I didn't claim, and don't have, insider knowledge.
3.15.2006 5:21pm