Triple Bleg

I would be grateful for information on any of these three topics:

1. If a person likes Green Day's sound, but not their politics, what other bands might the person enjoy?

2. What do you recommend as an entry-level shotgun for a pre-teen? It's really important that the stock be short, to accomodate short arms. If the shotgun will only be used on clay birds, and never for hunting live animals, is there any disadvantage to 28 gauge or .410?

3. I am looking for a web-based traffic meter for my website. I already run SiteMeter, but that of course covers only the home page. The website includes hundreds of different htm and pdf files, and I would prefer not to have to install new code on every single page. The solution cannot involve installing software on the website server. I realize that there is no free program which will do the the trick.


UPDATE: Thanks to the many excellent and thoughtful commenters! Here's what I did:

1. For Green Day substitutes, I'm starting with MxPx and Mr. T Experience. I will be checking out the many other bands highlighted by the commenters. (BTW, the music isn't for personal use; it's for someone else. I'm not punk.)

2. For the gun, I got the New England Firearms single-shot youth shotgun. It was the only gun I found that really fit well and was comfortable for the pre-teen to hold. I really like the fact that it's a break-open, that it's single shot, and that the hammer has to be manually cocked before a shot can be fired. Custom stock-fitting makes a lot of sense, but I couldn't bear to spend the money. (The NEF is a real bargain; only $107 at Cabelas.) Recoil would certainly be reduced with a gas-operated semi-auto, and I'm sure that's a good choice for some folks, but I agreed with commenters who suggested that a semi-auto might not be the right starter shotgun for my situation. At Cabelas I discovered that Remington sells a recoil-absorbing gel pad which can be inserted in an interior shoulder pocket in some shooting vests. We tried it out today, and its works superbly.

3. I'm adding the sitemeter code my Dynamic Web Templates. I will also explore getting ahold of the server logs.

Thanks again for all the great advice!

Stamboulieh (mail):

For your shotgun question, might I recommend letting the pre-teen try out the various gauges? I started with a 20 gauge when I was about 10 or 11, and it worked out really well. Invest in a good recoil pad if you intend him or her to be shooting a lot too. That took the "scare" out of the recoil when I was learning to shoot.

My only thought about a 28 gauge would be the expense of ammo (is it readily available like say a 20 or 12?). Also, he/she might quickly outgrow a .410, although it will be a really fun firearm to shoot for years to come and one they can pass down to their children.

I still have my New England Firearms single shot 20 gauge that my dad gave me when I was 10 or 11 and it still works perfectly!

7.9.2006 6:47pm
Frank Drackmann (mail):
I always liked Sonic youths "youth against Fascism" like who would be for fascism, you know? KMFDM sorta has a Green Day sound in a few songs but most kids listen to them just to scare their parents because of the whole Columbine thing. My entry level shotgun as a 90lb 12 yr old was a Winchester Defender 12 guage, it was a "riot gun" with an 18 1'2 inch barrel, but it was my dad's only shotgun so by default it was mine. I learned to shoot pistols with my dad's Colt "Lawman" .357 with a 4 inch barrell. After that, every other pistol is a snap. Did anyone else practice with the old "1 empty shell case with 5 live rounds" method? You put in 1 empty shell, 5 regular,spin the cylinder, and start shooting. If you have a bad flinch you can really see it when you click down on the empty round.
7.9.2006 6:49pm
Joe W (mail) (www):
Check out the Mr. T Experience, another Bay Area pop-punk band. Their songs are politics-free, though I believe the singer is a libertarian, if not conservative (can't recall). Excellent stuff.
7.9.2006 7:02pm
Robert Lyman (mail):
A little gun like a .410 is really more of an expert's gun because it throws so few pellets. It can be frustrating trying to break birds with one. I'd go with a 20 or even 12 gauge but buy lightweight loads. There's no getting around substantial recoil but you can get used to it.
7.9.2006 7:02pm
Leah Guildenstern (www):
First off - the stock can be modified - I'd recommend Gunsmoke which is in Wheatridge if you need a place to go. Secondly - my shotgun experience is limited, but this video of the Beretta Extreme 2 looks way cool and possibly somehting that would fit the bill. If I was actually looking for a shotgun in a similar situation I'd stop by Gunsmoke and ask Rich for advice.
7.9.2006 7:07pm
Definitely 20 Gauge. A pump has more recoil than an automatic. With an automatic, you can still set a limit of only one or two shells if you wish.

You should also consider bird hunting. A great experience between fathers and sons (or daughters).
7.9.2006 7:08pm
wt (mail) (www):
How about like Bruce Springsteen or Barbara Streisand?
7.9.2006 7:12pm
bornyesterday (mail) (www):
Are we talking Dookie-era greenday, or their most recent stuff?

If we're talking older stuff, check out Goldfinger. Catch-22 would also be one that I'd recommend.
7.9.2006 7:13pm
Annonymous coward (mail):
Gas operated 20 gauge - I'd go with a youth model 11-87 or a used 1100 or equal for reliable use with minimal recoil and no distraction from the necessity to rack the slide; drawbacks include throwing the hulls around - if money is no object then of course a custom stocked double, perhaps with a hydracoil style recoil reducing stock but that verges on the rediculous - yes there are 2 very real drawbacks to a 28 gauge and to a .410 bore. Price/availability both buying and selling and lack of effect on clay birds.
7.9.2006 7:34pm
Brooks Lyman (mail):
Dave -

No experience on the music and web traffic meter problems, and not too much on shotguns, but the comments to date seem about right. 28 Ga is a bit rare and ammo could be hard to find and expensive, .410 is fun and easy to shoot, but because of the smaller number of pellets, it is indeed an "experts" gun (unless you only shoot at relatively close targets, with a wider choke setting. Since you probably can't get gun clubs running matches or practices to go along with closer target settings, I would suggest something bigger.)

If the shooting is going to be in your own backyard, well, set your trap to throw slow and close and go for the .410; you can always get a bigger gun once some experience is gained.

12 or 20 ga with light loads (you might even try loading lighter than factory, but don't expect them to function an auto!)is a good idea, and I would suggest possibly buying a moderately good gun ($2-500) and having the stock shortened with a good recoil pad added. When the child grows up, you can replace the stock if the gun is worth it or add an extender piece or simply buy another gun and perhaps sell that one. Or, do the same thing, but go for inexpensive - such as the New England Firearms single shot break-open guns. The gun is less than $200 and the gunsmithing shouldn't more than double that. I'm sure that some people - possibly even NEF - make short versions for children if you want to go that way. But put a decent recoil pad on it! Flinches are hard to get over, and can discourage the beginning shooter.

Also, on the .410 vs larger bore question: What does "pre-teen" mean? 7-8 years old or 11-13 years old? The former might be a better bet for the .410, while most 11-13 year-olds should be able to manage a bigger gun.

Brooks Lyman
MIT Pistol &Rifle Club,
Cambridge, MA
7.9.2006 7:36pm
Stan Morris (mail):
I started at 12 at about 90 pounds and 5'5" with a Remington bolt action 20 gauge with a 3 shell clip. I used it to shoot clays and never really tried anything lighter.

Since I was 12 in 1952, the band names don't mean a lot to me. My kids listened to the "goldie oldies" like Pink Floyd and the Eagles. I didn't.
7.9.2006 8:05pm
Try setting up a Green Day station (or better yet, a station based on a particular Green Day song the person likes) on Pandora -- I've found them to do a great job generating artists by musical sound, while producing artists from all across the political spectrum.
7.9.2006 8:14pm
Jeff_M (mail):
You are getting good advice on the gauge of shotgun. Assuming the child is physically large enough to handle it, 20 gauge is best for both cost and effectiveness. Cut the stock down, which can be done by any gunsmith or yourself and a recoil pad installed. I'd recommend a low-priced gun because the child will physically outgrow it, and you can just sell it and upgrade once they are big enough for a full-size gun. I still have my cut-down Ithica Featherlight pump from 1969. Come to think of it, I'll sell it to you cheap. Better another young person learns on it than it sits in my closet (my daughters are not interested in shotguns, though I did teach them to shoot). Email if you are interested in that.

I would not recommend an auto-loader. Though they recoil less, they are not as safe for a child, in my opinion. A pump is a good, safe, inexpensive choice if you want a repeater. While you can limit the number of shells in it to increase safety, anything over one is not as safe, and if it's one, then a single shot is simpler and cheaper. A single shot is a great choice, especially if the child is younger than about 12.
7.9.2006 8:27pm
JohnO (mail):
Ramones. Green Day of 30 years ago. And Johnny Ramone voted for Reagan twice.
7.9.2006 8:33pm
Spoons (mail) (www):
I think a 20ga should be your minimum -- and don't rule out a 12ga. Clays without anything less than a 20 are way too hard. 20s are fine, but I'd have your youngster spend some time with a 12, first. Much of felt recoil boils down to load, action, fit, and form. If you get a good-fitting gun with a relatively light load, and if the kid is taught how to bring the gun to the shoulder properly, you might be surprised at how well he/she handles the 12. Failing that, the 20 is a good option. If you go for a pump gun, I'd recommend the Remington 870 Express, which is available in both 12 and 20. If you're willing to consider an auto (and I think you should be), Remington's 11-87 is a good balance between price and performance. I'm not aware of an 11-87 with a short stock, though, so you may need to be prepared to make a switch.

Regarding your meter issues, Sitemeter is still a good option. You would probably have to add the code only a couple of times -- just add it to your page template, and it'll automatically be on every page. You'd be out of luck on .pdf pages, though. I don't think you can make a .pdf file run a java script. If you really need to count those, it would seem like a server-based solution would be your best option (and it sounds like that might be problematic for you).
7.9.2006 8:38pm
Ak Mike (mail):
On the shotgun: I recently, after quite a bit of research, got a Remington youth model 11-87 (comes only in 20 gauge) for my kids to use (youngest is a 10 year old boy). As a gas-operated autoloader the recoil is quite moderate. It is also very safe, contra to Jeff M - gas type autoloaders like it are used for the youth skeet/clay sports leagues. My kids love it, even after being unhappy with a single shot 20 gauge I inherited from my father in law.

A very nice shotgun if you want to spend $700 is Beretta 391 Urika, also youth model. Lots of information on this topic on the forums at
7.9.2006 8:44pm
Ned Pike:
People have the shotgun question covered and I know squat-all about SiteMeter or the like. So, with what's left I'd recommend The Clash (yes, their politics aren't the greatest, but their music is the bomb) or The Sex Pistols. If it's punk you're after, that's where to start (with the possible exception of the MC5).
7.9.2006 8:47pm
Can you get the server logs? If you can't get those you are probably out of luck. If you can get them, you should be able to run awstats either from the web server or locally (it is a perl script). There are other log analyzer programs, I believe.
7.9.2006 8:52pm
Brian Frye (mail) (www):
Professor Kopel,

Per your request for bands similar to Green Day, I'd suggest:

Screeching Weasel - more Ramones-like, really, but from the same era. And the lead singer has faintly libertarian-esque overtones. Try "Punkhouse," which pokes fun at punker layabouts

Jawbreaker - relatively politics-free. And very good. Key member later formed Jets to Brazil.

The Buzzcocks - that's where Green Day got their sound. A seminal band...

Andrew WK - rather more operatic. But totally politics free. And great fun, to boot.

Atom and His Package - more lo-fi. But exceptionally funny and catchy. "What the Jews Do on Christmas" is absolutely classic.

the Jam - you might still not like their politics. But its less topical. Try "The Modern World"

The Fastbacks - similar sound, no politics

The Kinks - Different sound, but a predecessor. I recommend "Village Green Preservation Society"

Stiff Little Fingers - Similar to Buzzcocks, big influence on Green Day.

Superdrag - a bit heavier sound, but still very poppy.

The Undertones - older band again.

The Wedding Present - different sound, but generally popular with people who like Green Day.

Incidentally, some years ago Green Day played at my high school. There were lots of east bay bands with a sound similar to theirs. But most didn't last as long...
7.9.2006 9:03pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):

I'll throw in a vote for the .410. When I was a little kid back on a ranch in Oklahoma, I played with a little .410 my grandad had, and have fond memories of it. We didn't have skeet to shoot at, but we did have a lot of varmints -- and while I missed more than I hit (at first), the weapon was easy to handle, fun, and made me want to do better.

My cousin still owns it, and his kids (who just entered their 20s) learned with it as well. It's passed through the hands of four generations.
7.9.2006 9:04pm
re: traffic meter

>> I would prefer not to have to install new code on every single page.

There really are only 2 ways to track user behavior on a website: (1) installing server side scripts and (2) inserting code on each page. Since the former isn't an option for you, you would have to insert code on each page to achieve your goal. If you would like a scalable solution, you would create a single file that has a few lines of javascript (whatever your stat provider tells you to copy/paste; see e.g. Then on each webpage, you would place an include statement in the scripting language that your webserver uses (asp or php...), which would make reference to the javascript file. One day if you decide to change your stat provider, you would only need to modify the single file rather than all files. Hope that helps.
7.9.2006 9:05pm
If your "pre-teen" is an 11 or 12 year old boy, you should go ahead and get a 12-gauge pump. I have not-so-fond memories of the kick in elementary school, but when I went to summer camp as a 12 year old, a good ol'boy Navy GM1 taught me to shoot clay with a strong lean into the gun so that the shock was transmitted down the length of my body - I had a ball, and the kick wasn't a problem. By the time your (son?) is 13 or 14, he'll be ready / want a 12-gauge anyway, so why not just save the expense of a second purchase.
7.9.2006 9:12pm
jpaulg (mail):
It depends on what's being shot at. In farming communities in Australia the .410 is favoured as the farmhouse shotty because you can deal with snakes and other vermin without making a huge mess.
7.9.2006 9:17pm
TomHynes (mail):
I agree with the consensus of an 1100 or 11-87 in 20 guage. Ammo is cheap, and they can use it for years.

Do not cut down a nice walnut stock. Buy a plastic stock (I e-bayed one for $30), cut it down as much as possible, and use a slip on recoil pad. Ugly, but flexible.

Go with an open choke. It is far more fun to actually hit things.
7.9.2006 9:27pm
Adam (mail):
Minutemen and Superchunk. Also fIREHOSE.
7.9.2006 9:49pm
Josh Adams (mail) (www):
I have the same issue with Green Day's politics. If it's just a matter of not wanting to hear stupidity, then Dookie is a great CD. If it's, rather, a matter of wishing not to compensate them for their stupidity, then other band recommendations, they are a coming...

I'm a big fan of early (1995-2001) MxPx stuff. Some of their newer stuff is pretty good.

I second the guy above that suggested Superdrag. Great stuff, my business partner (now) introduced me to them back in high school.

Johnny Ramone is wonderful. Love his Ramones.

It's not punk at all, but a band called Stavesacre has some extremely excellent music, as does Project86.

Early P.O.D. is good. I'll discuss a few albums...Snuff the Punk is their first album, and it's really grungy punk stuff. Brown was their second album, and it stands the test of time. As does The Fundamental Elements of Southtown - probably their finest album to date. The later stuff gets downright stupid (starting at Satellite), but I forgive them for giving me the earlier stuff.

Also, while I'm at it - Starflyer 59.

The Arctic Monkeys.

I guess that's it.
7.9.2006 9:52pm
Might want to check out MxPx
7.9.2006 9:55pm
For fun music that has the same sort of upbeat, catchy style of Green Day, I'd really recommend Fall Out Boy. They seem pretty apolitical and focussed on the kind of stuff kids care about, such as relationship woes. As someone who went through the whole teen thing a few years back, though, I really don't think you should be too worried about the politics of the music your kids listen to.

I used to play bass in a very liberal punk band, listen to Rage Against the Machine, Green Day, and many other uber liberal bands (most popular bands are generally liberal in punk and hard rock), and as soon as I started reading about politics I became conservative. The thing you have to remember is that kids really don't even have the perspective to grasp the political content of the music and almost never critically analyze it. Out of all the punk kids I've grown up with, about 50% have become conservatives at college and 50% liberals. Though this is all anecdotal, it seems that the music had very little or no effect, while their upringing and parents had the lion's share.
7.9.2006 10:13pm
Slick Shoes:
Millencolin (especially their newer stuff)
New Found Glory
Fall Out Boy
No Use for a Name
Craig's Brother
The Lawrence Arms
7.9.2006 10:14pm
Dave Hardy (mail) (www):
Once, after beating my shoulder up with a 12 and hot loads, had to stop. Someone offered me a 28, and I found it quite pleasurable to shoot (and considerably more effective than a .410). As other posters have noted, scarcity of ammo may be an issue.
7.9.2006 10:28pm
Sarah (mail) (www):
For what it's worth, as a libertarian young adult I find Green Day's political lyrics obnoxious -- and my younger sisters (19 and 16) both agree. I'd love music exactly like theirs but without the "Seig heil to Bush" references. They're offensive about it in a way that I find extremely irritating. Though I choose to sing along to the remainder of "Holiday" with a strong sense of irony, referring to the drivel bursting forth from the Democratic Underground and Kos's bloggers rather than the Republican National Committee (not that I'm a huge fan of the RNC...)

Maybe I can find someone with better Audacity skills than I who'll Phantom Edit Green Day for me.
7.9.2006 10:32pm
I'm surprised no one has mentioned them, but Operation Ivy is the band for you. They're basically the original ska-pop-punk Bay Area band, but they are political. Some of the members went on to found Rancid, who are also somewhat similar in sound. I'd also try Blink 182 and the first Suicide Machines album (later albums were a little heavier on the politics). Honestlythough, I wouldn't get too caught up in the politics. I've found I can enjoy the music without getting caught up in a musician's political rants.
7.9.2006 10:39pm
I'll pass on the music and shotgun questions, except to note that as a kid I used to enjoy borrowing my mom's .410. Hard to hit stuff but a pleasure to shoot.

I have been using StatCounter on a site with good results. Easy to set up and good metrics. The free version only gives detailed info on the last 100 visits, but that number can be increased with $$.

They're at
7.9.2006 10:52pm
Reg (mail):
MxPx is better than Green Day. Relient K is pretty good, but Christian (if that matters). That's if you like the older alt/punk type sound of Green day.

I'll plug Foo Fighters, Guster, Travis, Eels, Fountains of Wayne, and Ben Folds, for great catchy pop tunes that are generally apolitical, or nuanced enough in politics to allow all viewpoints to enjoy. None really "sound" too much like Green Day, but they share the ability to find catchy hooks that can be really addicting and enjoyable over many repeat listens.

I've hated Green Day since they cancelled a concert I had tickets to in the late 90s and left it impossible to figure out how to get a refund.
7.9.2006 10:52pm
Sue (mail):
I have a recommendation for the proper model of shotgun for a preteen. My daughter's best friend committed suicide with his shotgun when he was a preteen. Nobody thought he was depressed, nobody thought he was contemplating suicide, but he's dead. Preteens don't NEED a shotgun, and there is no reason why they should have one. Most US states prohibit anyone under 16 from possessing a shotgun. My recommendation - once the preteen turns 18, then (s)he can buy a gun with their own money. I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't want to be walking in the woods with some trigger-happy 11-year-old running around with a loaded shotgun, even if it was just birdshot. If you're going to get a preteen a gun, why not just get him a bazooka or an Uzi? They are just as necessary and useful to a preteen as a shotgun!
7.9.2006 10:59pm
Greg C (mail):
Forget 12 gauge. Everyone advising that must be hunter, not a clay target shooter. Firing 100 rounds or more (as is typical when shooting clay targets) from a too powerful gun would cause most people to learn to hate shooting. Plus, assuming your particular pre-teen can handle a 20 gauge gun, the accuracy advantage gained by the reduced recoil of a 20 gauge for someone that young should more than compensate for the smaller number of pellets in a 20 gauge shell.

A standard 7/8 oz 20 gauge target load with number 8 shot will throw a pattern that is nearly identical in energy/velocity and shape to a standard 1-1/8 oz 12 gauge target load with number 8 shot. There will be roughly 20% fewer pellets (approximately 350 versus 450), but the shooter loses very little in clay breaking power except at far distances -- 40 yards and greater. Sporting clays shooters ocasionally shoot at those distances, but not enough to make it worth getting a gun that is too big. Skeet is always shot well within that distance, and trap nearly always.

Stepping down even further to a 28 gauge or .410 bore gun on the other hand, may not make much sense. The standard 28 gauge target load is about 3/4 oz of either number 8 or number 9 shot, which comes to roughly 50 fewer number 8 shot pellets than with a 20 gauge. So, that's not as big a concern as some have alleged here. But, if you buy a good gun, a shortened stock can always be swapped out later for an adult sized gun that will last a lifetime. Whereas a 20 gauge gun is highly versatile (especially if the shooter ever hunts upland game birds), a 28 gauge gun will often be just not quite enough gun but for the expert shooter. Plus, a 28 gauge gun will be slightly harder to find -- and find ammunition for. Still, most shotgun shooting facilities that sell ammunition will sell 28 gauge rounds.

Of course, if I could afford it, I'd have a 28 gauge shotgun in my safe. But, that begs the next question of how much you are willing to spend. ... which carries us on the question of what brand and model.

One poster above noted that gas-operated auto-loading shotguns substantially reduce felt recoil, which both makes them great for smaller shooters and increases accuracy. However, for entry-level shooters, break-open guns provide a safety feature that I, as a casual instructor of both children and adults, always find comforting. When a break-open gun is open, it is obvious to the shooter and others whether it is unloaded. With auto-loaders and pump-action guns, one can see whether the breach is open if the gun is turned to the correct vantage point. But then, break-open guns are substantially more expensive at any given quality level. Beyond that, the topic is entirely too open to provide any meaningful advice.
7.9.2006 11:05pm
scolson (mail) (www):
If you'd like a google analytics invite code, send me an email.

If you have access to the raw access logs, AWStats is nice but there are many more packages that do the job just as well--it depends on what you're looking for. Mind you, if you have access to the access logs, a "server side" solution can almost always be used on a home computer with the right setup.
7.9.2006 11:13pm
If you have a small, light kid, a 20ga makes more sense. There was a discussion over on TheHighRoad over where you got the most 'bang for the buck' and the Mossberg 500 got mentioned a lot. Friend of mine has one, 12 ga with 18" barrel, ex-California Highway Patrol. With light skeet and trap loads the thing is a joy to shoot, and very modest recoil, to my observation.
7.9.2006 11:43pm
Steve in CA (mail):
I can't believe no one has said, "listen to the Ramones." Really, it doesn't matter what the question is, the answer should be, "listen to the Ramones. Every day."
7.9.2006 11:47pm
I really hate to even point this out because someone who thinks having a shotgun caused a teenager to commit suicide is not a rational person. But the majority of states do not prohibit a teenager/pre teen or younger from prosesseing a shotgun or rifle. Disinformation must be corrected. Plus not everyone who commits suicide is depressed.
7.9.2006 11:55pm
Swen Swenson (mail) (www):
[Sigh] I must be getting old, I've never heard of most of those bands. Not so old I won't check them out though.

I too will heartily recommend an autoloading 20 gauge such as the Remington 11-87, and second the suggestion that you find an after-market stock to cut down. the only significant difference between the youth model and adult model 20 gauge Remingtons is the length of the stock, so if you cut down the aftermarket stock on an adult-sized gun you've got a gun the kid can use all his/her life. Better yet, if you can afford it, go to a gunsmith that specializes in shotgun fitting and have a stock properly fitted for the build of the child. Nothing eases recoil or improves accuracy with a shotgun so much as a properly fitted stock (although the factory Remington stock fits most pretty well).

As for the safety issue, 99% of safety is between the ears. I'd strongly recommend formal gun safety training before a shot is fired. If both of you attend you can work on reinforcing the lessons at every opportunity.

Good shootin!
7.10.2006 12:01am
Most of your commenters are dating themselves. Ramones? Joey Ramone never envisioned having 9 minute punk operas with different 'movements'. The people who recommended goldfinger and foo fighters are on to something... *but*
Assuming American Idiot is Green Day at their musical height, it shared a musical moment with Blink-182's self-titled album. Similarly mature punk sound.That's probably closest to what you're looking for.
Fall Out Boy is pretty good, but it isn't as mature a sound as Green Day.

Another Green Day follower who's not as original but has a good sound is Eve 6. Same goes for Marvelous 3. If you like Goldfinger, then you'll like Ska, and you should look up Reel Big Fish. And of course, if you like RBF, then, even though they're quite far from Green Day, you should check out the Bosstones (that is, the Mighty Mighty Bosstones).

Don't let anyone sucker you into listening to emo bands masquerading as punk bands, like Good Charlotte or Simple Plan. Most of the songs are about how their fathers are disappointed in them because they wear mascara.

And since you're a gun nut and question #2 is one of the creepier things I've read today, try Andrew WK. His album covers look like he's just killed a rabbit with his teeth. Good music, though. Very 'wall-of-sound'. Sounds like it's by the kids who beat up the guys in Green Day in middle school.
7.10.2006 12:20am
Waldensian (mail):
The .410 is widely perceived as a "youth" shotgun. It is not, however -- it is an expert's shotgun. It is very, very difficult to hit anything with a .410. (Anyone who disagrees, what kind of odds will you give me heads up at skeet or trap if I get to shoot a 20 gauge?).

The 12 gauge is simply not suitable for a pre-teen, period. People will say otherwise, but, well, they are wrong. You can have a very, very bad experience shooting a 12 gauge if you are under about 16 years old. Introducing kids to firearms is all about avoiding bad experiences at all costs.

For anyone 16 or under, a 20 gauge autoloader or pump is an excellent choice. I prefer the autoloader but frankly there isn't much difference. Find a used Remington 1100 skeet model or an 870 and you just won't go wrong. I shot one at 12 and I wasn't very big, and it was fine. I suggest handloading light dove loads for it, but if you aren't into that, try your average skeet load.

The recommendation of the New England single shot 20 gauge is also excellent advice.

Where I'm from, nobody shoots 28 gauge. Nobody. If somebody had showed up to hunt with a 28 gauge when I was growing up, we would have figured them for a yankee freak right off.

Accordingly, when I heard Cheney was shooting a 28 when he negligently shot his buddy, I was just mystified. I subsequently heard all kind of theories about how great the 28 is, but it all sounded like yuppie crapola to me.

In any event, the 28 gauge is (at the very least) far, far superior to the .410 and 12 gauge.

Have I mentioned that you should avoid the .410 and 12 gauge?

Good luck!
7.10.2006 12:28am
Oh, and try New Found Glory, Yellowcard, and Sum 41.

Real Green Day fans listen to those guys.

Of course, you might just be like my parents and not be ready for the bands that actually sound like Green Day. How punk are you *really*, Kopel?

And how punk do you want to be?
7.10.2006 12:40am
Robert Lyman (mail):
Preteens don't NEED a shotgun, and there is no reason why they should have one.

That's how I feel about preteens having thong underwear, cell phones, and unlimited TV privileges. But I don't wander around the shopping mall telling other people how to raise their kids.

Good Lord, our lives would be boring if I and my children could only have what we NEED.
7.10.2006 2:08am
PeteRR (mail):
For angry white guys, you can't beat:

-System Of A Down

Less angry, but great music:
-The White Stripes
7.10.2006 2:17am
PeteRR (mail):
Sorry, I should have recommended albums. For Tool, Aenima. For Offspring, Smash. For System Of A Down, Toxicity. With the White Stripes, you can't go wrong with any of their CD's. Elephant is a little weak, but the rest are gold. I own all of them.
7.10.2006 2:24am
David Friedman (mail) (www):
My web site uses Urchin. I can't tell you much about how it is installed, since it is provided by my ISP more or less automatically. But if you go to:

You can see the sort of information it provides.
7.10.2006 2:35am
Townleybomb (mail) (www):
I'm surprised that no one's recommended blogger Dr. Frank's band the Mr. T Experience. Can't say I've heard anything much they've put out since I was in college, but their early '90s stuff is classic Lookout records (the band that Green Day started out on) punk-pop with some very clever lyrics.

Screeching Weasel (whose lead singer Ben Weasel also blogs) is a good recommendation. And to reiterate, all of these recommendations are moot if you don't own a copy of anything by the Ramones.
7.10.2006 2:46am
Zach (mail):
I learned to shoot at about that age with a beautiful Sauer-Baretta over/under 20 gauge double barrel. A double barrel is mechanically very simple, easy to be safe with, and the physical act of pointing/leading the target is very enjoyable. Plus, the light construction and pretty appearance is less intimidating to a young kid than a pump or semiautomatic.

If you want to make the act of handling the gun more appealing, I highly recommend a Baretta double barrel. If you're not going to be hunting, there's no reason to get a 12 gauge, but you'll probably be happier with a gauge whose shells are widely available.
7.10.2006 3:04am
Bob Loblaw (www):

I'm surprised that no one's recommended blogger Dr. Frank's band the Mr. T Experience.
Townleybomb, Joe W suggested them in the third post. I was shocked to see it, because I didn't know anyone was still aware of them (particularly outside the Bay Area) - one of my favorite live bands of all time. David K., I wouldn't let politics influence too much your musical choices - why not allow at least that part of your life to be dicatated (almost) purely by what sounds good?

For a great Mr. T compilation, pick up the 31-song extended version of Big Black Bugs Bleed Blue Blood - including the classic Hello Kitty Menendez. Who can beat these lyrics?:

But each passing day
Can be bigger, better, brighter than ever
Now that we have
The Menendez excuse

And though your case may soon be replaced
By the Michael Jackson pedophile trial
You've got Wessonality
Celebrity, panache and style

And whether you have been abused
As or by a child
There'll be non compos mentises
For all those Menendezes
And Menendezes' apprentices
And doctors and dentist-es

So hello Kitty Menendez
Wherever you may be
You'll be watching over me
And I'll be watching Court TV
7.10.2006 3:57am
Brian Frye (mail) (www):
Also, if you're interested in East Bay punk, you'll find lots of commentary &clips at Not just East Bay, actually. But a preponderance, I've found. Check out the Misfits. You might like them. Where Eagles Dare is fantastic. And Bikini Kill does a great cover.
7.10.2006 7:17am
Michael Puttre (mail) (www):
I'm dating myself, but I was and remain a big fan of The Clash. If I let politics get in the way of my entertainment, music or otherwise, I'd be left with precious little.

Thinking about my exterience growing up with shotguns, I would recommend a breechloader. I could keep the gun cracked and safe until ready to shoot. This is good for sporting clays, where there's lots of wandering around. Plus, one can grow into a nice, upscale side-by-side later, and there's nothing cooler.
7.10.2006 8:28am
Re: the first question, I'd recommend AFI. Hardcore sound, but with intelligible lyrics and not as much of the political nonsense.
7.10.2006 8:43am
MatthewD (mail) (www):
There are a lot of good musical suggestions above, but I would also recommend Harvey Danger. As a bonus just for you, Dave, their latest album is available for free on Bittorrent.

Others I haven't seen above:
Social Distortion
Seven Seconds
Real Big Fish
7.10.2006 9:26am
Jeremy T:
Though some claim a .410 is an "experts gun," I have to disagree. My first shotgun was a .410, and it made me a better shooter when I moved up to 20 ga. and 12 ga. guns. The recoil is minimal, the sound is not terribly offensive, and it's a great first shotgun. Sure, it's easier to hit stuff with a 12 gauge, but that's not the only consideration. A 12 gauge is too much gun for somebody starting out, and might very well turn the kid off.
7.10.2006 9:36am
Robert Racansky:
3. I am looking for a web-based traffic meter for my website. I already run SiteMeter, but that of course covers only the home page. The website includes hundreds of different htm and pdf files, and I would prefer not to have to install new code on every single page. The solution cannot involve installing software on the website server. I realize that there is no free program which will do the the trick.

Have you contacted your local FBI or NSA office? They can probably tell you more than you want to know about the traffic to your web site.
7.10.2006 9:44am
JoeS (mail):
Too many good topics all on one thread!

I echo many of the above...

There are Christian alternative/punk bands that are really good. There is a label, "Tooth and Nail"

Our favorites:


Slick Shoes (sort of breaking (growing up) up but their albums are good) Really nice guys

MxPx really rocks

Craig's Brother is really nice guys

an extinct band, "Value Pac" (Ryan Sheely)


Supertones (they are a lot like Real Big Fish &Mighty Bosstones)

-Also some good Christian almost ganster Rap "Cross Movement"

-Hard Core


Project 86

I will email some tracks if you want. I have all their CDs.

We got involved when our son was 12, taking him and his friends to the concerts, I would drive everyone in our van. I ended up liking the music and the positive lyrics. The bands are very bright personable people. It was a postive time for our son.

You don't have to give up the rock to clean up the messages.
7.10.2006 10:00am
Burnside (mail) (www):
1. Guttermouth is a good alternative for right-of-center punk lovers like me. They actually got some flak from their peers a couple of years ago for refusing to blindly blame Bush for all the problems in the world, imagine that. They are know for a (very) slight conservative slant in their lyrics.
7.10.2006 10:11am
jallgor (mail):
I personally think most of the bands that are being recommended are too hard for someone who likes Greenday. I mean, aren't most of the reccomendations above fairly hard punk while Greenday is more of a rock-n-roll/punk? And some of thier songs are basically pure pop songs, Boulevard of Broken Dreams, anyone? Foofighters or Blink 182 might be soft enough to compare to Greenday. BTW I am not using soft as an insult here, I like the Foofighters, etc. I think somebody who likes Greenday might also like The Strokes.
7.10.2006 10:24am
Cam Edwards (mail) (www):
I think the shotgun question's been adequately answered (although I'd probably go with a 20 gauge as well).

I'll second the recommendation of the Offspring. Good hard music with a fairly libertarian bent. I'd also recommend Me First and the Gimme Gimmes. It's a cover band made up of guys from Swinging Utters, NOFX, Lagwagon, and Foo Fighters. They turn all kinds of songs (John Denver, Stevie Wonder, Beach Boys, Led Zepplin) into punk tunes. It's hard to be political when you're playing someone else's song (although their upcoming album does feature a Dixie Chicks song, apparently).
7.10.2006 10:35am
The Storkes (as the poster said above)
White Stripes
Simple Plan
Our Lady Peace
7.10.2006 10:39am
W. J. J. Hoge:
I started my son with a 20-ga Mossberg pump. It was their Youth model and came with a coupon for an additional full-length stock at no-cost. He was 4'10" when we bought the gun; he's 6'1" now. Changing the stock has enabled him to continue using the gun.

He tried using my .410, but was more confident with his 20-ga. That made shooting more interesting, and he kept with it long enough to become proficient.

I started with a .410 used on small game. Because of the small effective pattern, I wound up shooting it the same way I used a .22, but shotguns and rifles are not handled the same way. The bad shooting habits I learned pretty much ruined me for wing shooting.

I'd stick to a 20-ga.
7.10.2006 10:51am
Kurt2 (mail):
I admit they're more of a guilty pleasure than a legitimately great band, but I enjoy 311 for ska/pop stuff. All Mixed up is a better song than anything that Green Day ever did, and I like Green Day okay.

Also, Sublime - a bit like 311, only better and raunchier (songs about doing drugs, date rape etc.
7.10.2006 10:52am
Pending grad:
Since someone suggested Andrew WK, I just want to point out that he is Prof. Krier's (of U. of Michigan Law School, author of a property case book) son.
7.10.2006 10:56am
first, a website for the Green Day question:

stuff that someone who likes Green Day might like, but is much better than Green Day: old Replacements and Husker Du

Better than Green Day only because they know their role (pop-punk band having fun): the Offspring (bonus: "get a job" lyrics)

Better than Green Day musically, smarter than Green Day, less self-rightrous, but more pop hard rock than pop punk: Weezer

Misc: Get Up Kids, Flipp, American Hi-Fi, Sweet J.A.P.
7.10.2006 11:19am
juliesa (mail):
For clay shooting, I would say no to pumps. It's too hard to hit doubles.

I'm not that experienced, and I don't know about kids, but I shoot skeet sometimes on Ladies night, and some of the gals are very petite (though I am not). FWIW, a lot of the beginner ladies use Remington 1100s, mostly in 20 ga, but a few in 12. The more experienced ladies seem to mostly have Beretta over&unders, in 20 and 28 ga. 28 ga. ammo is not hard to find in my city, but this is a big shotgun sports center.

I have used both my old 20 ga. Rem 1100 and my son's 12 ga. over&under (it's not my gun, so I haven't had it fitted or added a pad). I've come to prefer the 12 ga just because I'm not such a great shot, and I can score better with it, and as others have said, it's nice to be able to break it open if you're going to walking around with it. Also the chokes are easy to switch out. It beats me up some, but with target loads it's tolerable. Again, though, at 5'8" I'm probably bigger than many pre-teens.

The Rem 1100 20 ga was my first gun as an 18 year old girl, and it's still useful for upland bird hunting and skeet, especially in an intermediate choke.
7.10.2006 11:22am
Wow. 65 responses, already. If you even read this far, here's my take on the shotgun question.

I've been shooting trap and skeet since I was 11. My first job was "pit boy" at the gun club, meaning I sat in the trap pits and manually reloaded the launcher for every throw. I started shooting with a Remington 1100 in 20 gauge, and moved to a 12 pretty quickly. I switched to double guns several years ago, and now use a Browning Citori over/under 12 gauge for most shotgun sports.

I also have quite a bit of experience introducing people to shooting sports. I've been instructing for a few years, including a fair number of youths.

I agree with the near consensus opinion above that 410 and 28 are bad choices. Ammo is scarce and expensive, and they throw such light loads that they are very difficult to hit with. If you are introducing a youngster to the shooting sports, the last thing you want is for them to be unable to hit anything. They'll get frustrated and discouraged, it won't be any fun, and they'll never want to try it again.

I agree that you want a gun that does not recoil too hard, either. If it does, your new shooter will get hurt, scared, not hit anything, and again, never want to do it again.

It's also important to realize, however, that recoil is not a function of gauge. Recoil is a function the shot load (mass of shot in the shell), velocity and mass of the firearm. Heavy shot loads moving at high velocities generate more recoil, regardless of gauge. Lighter shotguns recoil more from the same load than do heavier shotguns.

A 1 oz load at 1,300 fps generates the same recoil energy whether it is packaged in a 12 gauge shell or a 20 gauge. The 20 will recoil MORE, though, because the 20 gauge gun is smaller and, therefore, lighter. Its lower mass means more of the recoil energy is translated into rearward velocity than in the case of the same load being fired out of a heavier gun. Thus, it is not uncommon for people to report that a 20 gauge shotgun kicks HARDER than a 12, when fired with equivalent loads.

There are plenty of lightweight 12 gauge loads readily available. One of my favorites is the Winchester AA "featherlight", which has 7/8 oz. of shot -- the same as a typical 20 gauge target load. I know lots of shooters who swear by it. It is commonly available, inexpensive, soft shooting, and yet throws a dense enough pattern that beginners do well with it in skeet and handicap trap. Other manufacturers have similar 12 gauge "light target" loads that you can buy at just about any Wal-Mart.

Autoloaders will also kick less than pumps or doubles, because the cycling of the operating mechanism absorbs/redirects some of the energy. With equivalent loads, gas operated autos (like the Remington 11-87) will produce the least/softest recoil. Pumps and doubles will generate more felt recoil, because they have no mechanism to absorb it. Single shots will be among the hardest recoiling shotguns, because they are so light.

All that said, the fit of the shotgun is the most important thing. A shotgun that doesn't fit the shooter can hurt like heck. Another shotgun of the same configuration and weight, firing the same load, can be soft and pleasant to shoot.

The bottom line -- go to a good gun store with a wide selection of shotguns. Try out several models in 12 and 20 gauge, and pick something that fits your young shooter reasonably well. Better yet, find a shooting coach first and have him/her help you buy and fit the shotgun.
7.10.2006 11:49am
hedgehog (mail):
musically you might try Tally Hall or The Mercury Retrograde:
7.10.2006 12:05pm
Mikeyes (mail):
I agree with ksd about recoil and fit although I would recommend a 20 gauge mostly because you should be able to find a youth shotgun in that gauge. (Years ago Beretta made a youth model of the 303 semi-auto in 20 gauge, a great gun that you could restock or add more pads as you grew.)

Several years ago I did a survey for Shotgun Sports magazine on flinching. (I write a mental training column and was the team physician for the US Shoot Team in the '80s.) We surveyed several hundred trap shooters and found that reptition seemed to be the most common factor involved in developing a flinch. Noise and recoil seemed to be the culprits that resulted in a flinch (a very distressing state of temporary paralysis of the trigger finger that usually occurs in a match situation, in other words you fail to pull the trigger when you are supposed to, like the "yips" in golf.)

The Mayo clinic has done studies with golfers and came to a similar conclusion that the stresses of putting and years of repeating the stroke under stress (20+ years of experience at the sport is the average for shotgun and golf when the problem surfaces) are a major factor in developing this problem. By starting out your teen with a lower recoil semi-automatic shotgun (which distributes the recoil over a longer period of time and is thus less painful) you are doing a favor that will continue on for years.

Besides, it is more fun to shoot clay targets and come home with no bruises on the shoulder and face. A well fitted shotgun (which will have to be re-fitted as your teen grows) with low recoil that shoots a big enough pattern to cover 3-5 clay target diameters is perfect. That way your teen will be able to hit 50% or more targets early in his/her career and have the incentive to continue on.
7.10.2006 12:17pm
Michael Bane (mail) (www):
Brother Dave;

I got a cut-down NEF 20 gauge single-barrel break-opne when I was 8 (which is preteen, I think). I shot my first dove the same week.

However, I would strongly suggest you go with a Remington Light-Weight Wingmaster 870 pump in 20 gauge.

HAVE THE GUN FITTED! It makes an amazing difference when a gun is fitted by a professional. I TOTALLY recommend Jim Botsford at the Kiowa Creek Sporting Club (which is a beautiful sporting clays facility, BTW) just outside of Denver. He fitted my competition Winchester X-2, and as you can imagine, I am VERY picky. You might also consider getting the kid a lesson with the club pro, Warren Watson, who is excellent — I take lessons from him.

My rationale here is simple...the 870 is a lifetime gun. As the child gets older the gun can be adjusted by the stockfitter with shorter pads, etc. As an adult, 870 stocks are plentiful. The gun with screw-in chokes can be used for clays, hunting and, in later years, also makes a fine self-defense gun (I have an 870 20-gauge in my bedroom). It's also dirt cheap...I paid $120 for mine new in the box at a local gunstore.

I also think everyone should have at least one 870, so it makes sense to get 'em started young!

RE: GREEN DAY, they give me hives. Stick to Tito & Tarantula.

Your pal,

Michael Bane
7.10.2006 12:18pm

Another vote for a .410 to start a kid, even on clays.
Does he/she want to learn to be a good shot from the start, or just be "competive" thanks to the gun?

Definitely not a 12ga. unless your pre-teen is a big'un.
If the 28ga. is more common in your area, have them try this too. But if they're going to be the only one around with a 28, stick with the .410.
7.10.2006 12:24pm
Cold Warrior:
Wow, plugz for Tito and the Tarantulas (Michael Bane should get the joke).

For the poster who said citing The Clash dates him, let me make him feel young.

If you like Green Day's latest biggest hit, you'll like Iggy Pop, since it is a complete ripoff of Iggy's The Passenger.

And I'll put in a word for some other oldtimers, but these guys (well, really just this guy) is still active: The Fall. If you like chunky riffs and can stand the tone-deaf voice, you'll find some laugh-out-loud commentary on current events from a world class curmudgeon. I've always assumed Mark Smith is a libertarian if only because he is an equal opportunity skeptic ...
7.10.2006 1:10pm
Ziv (mail):
David, I really agree with a lot of what has been said above about the use of light loads in a 12, or a nice 20, both in over-under, for the safety aspect. I use a 28, and love it, but the shells are expensive and the pattern is a bit thin on the ground. KSD, Mikeyes and several others really nailed it, you have a very knowledgeable readership!
And thanks for the rec's on the bands!
7.10.2006 1:13pm
Kelly Overmyer (mail):
I would go with the 28 over the 410, it is hard to hit with a 410. as far as 28 vs 20, a 28 in my opinion is the better comprmise. it does not have as much recoil has a comprable payload to the 20 and is all around handy on everthing from squirells up to pheasents.

music and politics??? I try no to pay attention, although I havent listend to a Dixie Chicks song in many years now. What I do is not read the entertainment news and listen to the music.
7.10.2006 1:15pm
As for music you (or your child) might like, I'd suggest:
-Bowling for Soup (TX-based, really catchy)
-Mest (emo-ish, but still pretty good)
-Dashboard Confessional (emo, their acoustic stuff is catchy)
-Drive-By Truckers (Alt-country - give them a shot, you'll probably like them)
-Allister (pop-punk, a la early Green Day)
-Guided by Voices (indie, but becoming more poppy)
-Jack's Mannequin (emo, but not in a crappy way)
-Luster (most famous for their opening song "Scotty Doesn't Know" from the Eurotrip movie)
-Less than Jake (ska-pop-punk, very catchy, check out the LP "Anthem")
-Motion City Soundtrack (indie-pop, very good)

And I'll second the recommendations for:
-MxPx (though their politics piss me off in the other direction)
-Get-up Kids
-American Hi-Fi (wuss-punk)
-Simple Plan (really wuss-punk, but the kids these days, that's what they like)
7.10.2006 1:27pm
Anderson (mail) (www):
Seig heil to Bush

Isn't it "sieg heil to the president's yes-men"? Not quite the same thing. (And why can't people figure it out? "ie" = long e, "ei" = long i. Almost as annoying as would-be anti-semites who make their swastikas backwards ... read a book, people.)

My 11YO makes me listen to that song, without having the slightest clue as to the political content (poor kid thinks he's a Republican).
7.10.2006 1:37pm
Frank Drackmann (mail):
Did anyone else learn to shoot at a dump? The clay pigeons sound fun, but nothing beats a 12 guage 3 inch magnum slug through a color TV screen or clothes washer. The coolest was shooting a 30:06 at this large metal cylinder from probably 300 yards. When I was lucky enough to hit the thing, it was cool to hear the perceptible delay from the sound of the shot and the clanging of the bullet off the target.
7.10.2006 1:37pm
rmark (mail):
Mossberg youth model 20 gauge pump shotgun - longer forearm is easier to reach and longer buttstocks are available. I bought one for my wife, as my double barrel 20 gauge has too long a buttstock for her to use comfortably. The .410 has a long skinny shot column, as does the 28 gauge, so I think you are better off with light 20 gauge loads. My daughter wants a 12 gauge trench gun with bayonet.
7.10.2006 1:55pm
richard (www):
The Who: real punks. american idiot is just quadrophenia.
The Damned: one of the best ever
The Dead Boys: the best american band besides the ramones
7.10.2006 2:11pm
If you don't like Green Day's politics you should still listen to them. Maybe not their political songs, if the words disturb you. But even then, forget about politics and listen to the music. Music and politics are, for the most part, entirely separate spheres.

Don't be like Jews who refuse to acknowledge the music of Wagner because he was a notorious anti-semite, or those who refuse to acknowledge the music of Richard Strauss, because he supported the Nazis in his dotage, or Nazis who dismissed the music of Felix Mendelssohn because he was Jewish.
7.10.2006 2:16pm
Jeff B.:
I'm disappointed that nobody has recommended either the creators of the greatest punk album (Wire, "Pink Flag") or the progenitors of specifically American punk-pop (Husker Du, Zen Arcade).

I highly recommend either Pink Flag or Zen Arcade to you...old style (1977 and 1984 respectively) but fantastic nonetheless. Especially Zen Arcade: "Chartered Trips," "What's Going On" (famously plagiarized by the Smashing Pumpkins for "1979"), "Whatever," "Pink Turns To Blue," "Newest Industry": these are the songs that made Green Day possible aside from their UK-Buzzcocks influence.
7.10.2006 2:37pm
n00b (mail):
Heh, Frank, Sonic Youth's "Youth Against Fascism"? Somehow I don't think that's the kind of advice the guy was looking for. What with lines like "Black robin' swill, I believe Anita Hill" and "Yeah, the president sucks, he's a war pig f***," directed at Bush 41. This is probably my own personal classic example of a song I completely love to rock out to musically but think the lyrics are a cringe-worthy embarrassment. (See also: "Let's Not Sh*t Ourselves" by Bright Eyes)

Not a fan of Green Day, but I'd cite Blink182, Sum 41, and Offspring as having the same kind of punk-pop sound. Now I'm really not into those groups, but one similar one that I will heavily ensorse is called Pontius Copilot. I think it's impossible not to enjoy their album "Madagascar" with songs like "Maradona's Knees."

As for the Ramones, although Johnny had his "Kill a commie for mommy" shirt, they did go after Reagan with "Bonzo Goes to Bitberg." And the politics of that one can't even make me cringe because it's just such a perfectly put-together song.
7.10.2006 2:46pm
Al Benk:
Regarding music like Green Day: I'm surprised no one mentioned the Stooges. Try their second and third albums: "Fun House" and "Raw Power".

What is the purpose of the shotgun? Is shooting clay targets the goal? Or to get them familiar with firearms in general?
7.10.2006 3:01pm
Kisrum (mail):
The Promise Ring - Very Emergency. LOUD 3-chord Emo

The Muffs - The Muffs. Think of Billy Joe as a tall skinny girl with bangs and a buzz-saw voice who never writes about politics and you have The Muffs.

I would avoid the autoloader Remingtons. Pulling the bolt back takes way too much strength for a little kid and the autoloader feature makes it much easier to accidentally discharge. Semi-autos are for grown-ups and only reasonably experienced grown ups at that. 20 ga. sounds right.
7.10.2006 3:08pm
Kurt2 (mail):
Don't be like Jews who refuse to acknowledge the music of Wagner because he was a notorious anti-semite, or those who refuse to acknowledge the music of Richard Strauss, because he supported the Nazis in his dotage, or Nazis who dismissed the music of Felix Mendelssohn because he was Jewish.

If Wagner's music was full of anti-semitic lyrics, I would expect that most Jews wouldn't want to listen to it. There's an enormous difference between not admiring music because of the private beliefs of the composer, and not admiring music with noxious lyrics right in the mix.
7.10.2006 3:35pm
Sebastian Holsclaw (mail):
Just put the Sitemeter code on your page template and rebuild your entries. Alternatively, your web provider may have some good statistical tools if you look around their services.
7.10.2006 4:15pm
Hey Jeff B., I recommended Husker Du a little ways above your comment, so don't be too disappointed

recommendation out of left field: VKTMS's "Midget"
7.10.2006 4:28pm
Lonely libertarian (mail) (www):
Just a music comment- For those who like Green Day's music but not their politics, try the following;

Any "classic punk"- The Sex Pistols (whose only real politics are anarchist), The Ramones (whose songs are mostly apolitical), and Minor Threat -

Beyond that, if you're looking for something matching the similar more melodic pop-punk sounds of Green Day, try Blink 182 (if you want to listen to songs about growing up), New Found Glory (emo songs about girls), Saves the Day (Modern Day alienation), Mxpx, Social Distoprtion, and Rancid (at least, most of their early stuff which is politically vague enough to be not quite so obnoxious.)

And also, keep in mind that prior to their last album, American Idiot, Green Day's music was no so overtly (and annoyingly) political. As someone who grew up on punk, I had a big problem with the numerous punk bands coming out in 2004 telling people to vote for Kerry. Punk isn't supposed to be about being pargmatic- a real punk band would be telling kids not to vote at all.
7.10.2006 4:37pm
Nick Seevers (mail):
If you like Green Day you may like Weezer's Pinkerton (1996) or Make Believe (2005). Softer, yet I think better then Green Day is Dashboard Confessional. Other bands that may have been named, but are good: All-American Rejects, Bloc Party, Placebo these bands are good and similar enough to Green Day.
7.10.2006 5:00pm
Emerson (mail):
Re: Green Day

Back when Green Day were just another band on Lookout! Records I really liked Sweet Baby. Today I'd recommend The Lillingtons' "Death By Television" and Canada's Hanson Brothers. Staying in that genre of pop-punk, of course.
7.10.2006 5:42pm
Cody E.:
For a band with a sound similar to Green Day's but without the politics, I recommend the Teen Idols, a fast paced, but clean sounding, punk-pop band from Nashville, Tenn. They were influenced by the Ramones (who wasn't?), Screeching Weasel, and, believe it or not, '50s du-op. You can really hear the du-op influences in songs such as "The Pucker Up" and "My Lesson" off their album The Pucker Up Unfortunately, they broke up in 2003.

This verse from the song "Bandwagon" off their album Full Leather Jacket sums up their politics fairly well:

So critical, analytical
You're selling but I'm not buying
Just put your point of view aside
And we'll get along just fine
I'm not biblical, or political
You judgement of me ain't flying
This bandwagon's full of hypocrites
And I'm not going along for the ride

Here are a few more bands.

*Screeching Weasel
*Go Betty Go
*Less than Jake
*Craig's Brother
*Dance Hall Crashers (One of my favorites. They feature two female vocalists.)

If it's Green Day style politics you're trying to avoid, then stay away from NOFX. They're more overt in their dislike for Midwesterners and anyone not like them than Green Day has ever been.

Hope that helps.
7.10.2006 6:04pm
Oslo (mail) (www):
I use the free version of statcounter.
7.10.2006 7:34pm
JW (mail):
Dead Kennedys
Minor Threat
Bad Religion
Billy Bragg
The Thermals
7.10.2006 7:45pm
bcn (mail):
I can't believe that no one has mentioned the 16 gauge as an option for the shotgun. It is my understanding that it is making a come back and that there are a lot more factory loads for it now. Depending on how you want to go the 16 can be built on a 20 frame for a lighter gun, or on a 12 for a more robust gun. In either case a 16 gauge would be a great gun. I belive Remmington has a line of them out in both pump and autoloader.

Just my 2 cents

7.10.2006 7:59pm
RTL (mail):
Stay away from NOFX. Their whole "thing" is anti-bush 43. T-shirts / album covers / lyrics / you name it.
7.11.2006 12:49am
Gaijin Biker (mail) (www):
Another vote here for Lagwagon and Goldfinger.
7.11.2006 5:36am
M. Simon (mail) (www):
Blue Cheer, although they may be a bit too melodic for Green Day fans.

As to their politics - they don't believe the UN is helpful and they believe all politicians want is your vote.
7.11.2006 10:38am
scolson (mail) (www):
"My web site uses Urchin."

FYI, urchin was an excellent product that required being installed server side. It was aquired by Google a few years back and they supposedly took the technology from it and integrated it in to their analytics product
7.11.2006 11:44am
JW (mail):
Indeed. Stay away from NOFX. Like girls, they have cooties.
7.11.2006 3:12pm
Dan S.:
Sue is absolutely right! Buying a shotgun for a preteen will make them want to commit suicide. Isn't that what guns do, make people do things they wouldn't otherwise do?

After all, think about all of those nasty murders and suicides we had before the Gun Control Act of 1968. Glad we don't have those anymore . . . except for all the violence from assault weapons. I for one am very glad that violence from assault weapons disappeared after 1994.

No. Your preteen will be much better off without a gun. After all, what possible use is a gun other than for committing a crime?

7.11.2006 6:36pm
Waldensian (mail):

A double barrel is mechanically very simple, easy to be safe with, and the physical act of pointing/leading the target is very enjoyable.

Agreed. I'm kicking myself for not suggesting that. A 20 gauge double barrel would be an outstanding choice. I am a huge fan of the safety advantages of break-open shotguns.

It's worth getting quality here. In my limited experience, inexpensive double barrels are not generally a good buy. Perhaps a nice used Browning BSS. I have one in 20 gauge and it is just awesome.
7.11.2006 7:02pm
Dan S.:
Waldensian, don't you understand that the shotgun will simply leap out of its case by itself and inflict mayhem on the population?

Also, I for one would never purchase anything by someone named Browning (whoever he was).

7.11.2006 7:08pm
Waldensian (mail):

My daughter wants a 12 gauge trench gun with bayonet.

I'm crying tears of joy. That Chinese knockoff is actually pretty good. The real thing will set you back big time.
7.11.2006 7:08pm
Jawbreaker and Mr. T Experience are both excellent suggestions, and two of my favorite bands of all time.

I'd also recommend The Queers, Kid Dynamite, and F.Y.P. were all moderately political, but more in an "I hate fascists" kind of way. American Steel was mostly apolitical. The Lawrence Arms is also a great suggestion.

A few more:
The Mistreaters
The Smoking Popes
Ted Leo and the Pharmacists (It's not punk at all, but I don't know anyone in the punk scene--or any other scene--who doesn't love it.)
The Epoxies (Pop-punk + Nerd Rock, a la Devo. Oh yes.)
One Man Army
Superchunk (Maybe, very high-pitched vocals turn some people off)
None More Black
Ash (Very cheesy, but then, so is Green Day)

Also, you might try Sambomaster. They're an amazing Japanese band, and you can't possibly be offended by the lyrics if you don't understand them.
7.11.2006 7:11pm
Waldensian (mail):

Waldensian, don't you understand that the shotgun will simply leap out of its case by itself and inflict mayhem on the population?

I didn't think about that. I'm afraid to go home now.

With any luck, perhaps my unmanned weapons will start fighting each other rather than taking out the whole neighborhood.
7.11.2006 7:14pm
Dan S.:
They can chose up sides: Enfields vs. Moisin-Nagants.

7.11.2006 7:23pm
k parker (mail):
Robert Lyman,

our lives would be boring if I and my children could only have what we NEED.
True enough, but it would be even worse if you could only have what other people think you need!
7.12.2006 1:51pm
Mike T (mail):
Please have your daughter use an 1100 or 1187 in 20 gauge. A good gunsmith should be able to swap the stock for a youth stock thus giving future use to the shotgun. Might I suggest that you look into 4-H shooting sports as one way to encourage her to participate, call your local extension office for the county you live in. Colorado have a very active group.
7.12.2006 1:56pm