The Volokh Conspiracy

Dallas School Trustee Recommends City-Wide Ordinance Banning Low-Rise Pants in Public:

The Dallas Morning News reports:

A proposal to ban saggy pants in Dallas gained steam Wednesday as City Council members discussed how to deal with the popular clothing trend.

Several council members voiced support and asked the city attorney's office to research whether such a rule is enforceable.

Dallas school trustee Ron Price recommended the ban at Wednesday's council meeting, following through on a plan he announced Tuesday. Mr. Price wants the city to create an ordinance to allow police to cite people who wear their pants too low.

"Too low," he said, allows too much underwear to show....

The article doesn't mention any proposed language for the ordinance, likely since no ordinance has yet been formally proposed. But I wonder just how the city council would implement this, even if it decides it wants to. Would swimsuits qualify? Would there then be an exception for waterparks, public pools, and sidewalks on the way from the parking lot to the public pool? How about for people walking in their swim trunks from a private pool to their house, maybe stopping in their driveway to get something from their car? Kids, including teenagers, running through the sprinklers on a hot day?

Or would the ordinance try to distinguish boxers/briefs worn to swim from boxers/briefs worn for other purposes? How exactly? Based on the kind of fabric? Or is it that it's OK to wear a boxer or a brief if you're wearing it alone, OK if you're covering it up with pants, but not OK if it's halfway in between? Would there be an exception for people who are bending over sloppily, or people whose T-shirt rides up when they stretch for something, exposing an underwear waistband?

Is this really what the Dallas City Council should be doing?

Thanks to Marc Levin for the pointer.

UPDATE: Some commenters were confused, so I ought to clarify: The school trustee is the one suggesting the ordinance, but the ordinance is not limited to schools -- it would cover public places throughout the city. (I've revised the title to point to that more clearly.)

Syd Henderson (mail):
All you'd have to do is not wear underwear at all.
8.28.2006 6:13pm
CJColucci:
Beat me to it, Syd.
8.28.2006 6:32pm
Former Clothing Company Executive:
This "popular clothing trend," like more than a few recent clothing trends, had its origin in the criminal world. Extra-baggy pants started in prisons as easy access for sodomy, then became popular in inner-city ghettos, and now grace the posteriors of spoiled middle class and rich kids everywhere.

The Dallas City Council is right to recognize that clothing is not ethically neutral, and hopefully they will draft a standard that is clear and able to be defended in court.
8.28.2006 6:47pm
wm13:
Many private schools have dress codes, and they seem able to manage the issues Prof. Volokh raises. For that matter, many law firms have dress codes for the messengers, secretaries etc. that prohibit clothing that is "revealing," "unsuitable," or the like, and they seem to manage. Maybe Prof. Volokh should check with the secretarial supervisor at Mayer Brown to learn how she manages these issues--it's amazing sometimes how people with a little common sense handle things that baffle law professors.
8.28.2006 6:54pm
TO (mail):
They should also ban popped collars, mullets, "whale tails," and spandex. Because those things are at least as annoying.
8.28.2006 7:03pm
Dan Hamilton:
But will the ACLU allow it or will they sue as an infringment on the poor students right of self expression.

Oh, for the days when school officials would have just sent the little (&&(*(*&*&_(*#@%0 home as dressed unsuitable for school.

But NOOOOOO. Talk like Prof. Volokh raises puts it all under lawyers. Lawyers who have no common sense. It was removed in law school. In its place was put a law book where every little part MUST be defined or they can't deside what to do.

Just a little rant. You must admit that law school teaches one to think like a lawyer. Much different from the rest of us. Not bad or anything but different.
8.28.2006 7:03pm
Steveo987 (mail):
I think it says a lot about a person when he would criminalize a fashion.
8.28.2006 7:17pm
NewSisyphus (mail) (www):
Well, this is where the rule of we lawyers gets out of hand. Our obsessive attempt to codify everything--an activity that would (rightly) mystify our common law ancestors--has resulted in the striping of discretion in favor of ordinances and regulations like the one being discussed here.

Under the older system, the person with authority over the school would have been allowed to exercise his/her discretion without reliance on codified rules. The pricipal would just have said "Timmy/Kimmy, come here, you're going home and you're going to change and don't ever come to school wearing that again" and that would have been the end of it.

Now, this poor City Council is trying to legislate that power back into existence, which, for the reasons Professor Volokh points out, will then easily be challenged, which will lead future city councils to adopt ever more-specific regulations, etc.

When will we wake up and realize that such civil law concepts don't work, never have and never will?
8.28.2006 7:27pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
wm13, David Hamilton: Private institutions, and even public schools, can be quite flexible in part because they're not setting forth laws which are enforced through arrest, criminal punishment, and the like.

A private employer can, for instance, tell people to be polite to each other, and can fire them for being rude. A statute barring people from being rude would be impermissibly vague. A private employer, for that matter, can and does discipline and fire people for making foolish decisions, writing badly, and so on; city ordinances embodying identical standards would be unconstitutionally vague, and would certainly be improperly vague.

Likewise with dress codes. First, a private school or a private employer are governing a lesser part of their employees' lives -- they don't have to worry much about teenagers running through sprinkers on the front lawn, or people walking from a public swimming pool. And, second, we rightly tolerate a lot more vagueness and individualized judgment calls when the matter involves private employment decision (or even government decisions when the government is just as an employer or even a K-12 educator) than when it involves criminal laws, even petty criminal ones.
8.28.2006 7:31pm
TomHynes (mail):


Louisiana tried to ban low rise underwear a couple of years ago.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4963512/

Frankly, I am a little disappointed. I read Volokh.com expecting thorough legal analysis from brilliant minds, but Eugene didn't even bother to google "underwear law". And don't give me any of that "It's not my specialty" nonsense.
8.28.2006 7:39pm
wm13:
Well, the problems Prof. Volokh have more validity if the ordinance applies to all public places, rather than just schools. The obvious solution is to limit it to schools, where the courts prohibit all sorts of things (e.g., offensive speech) that would constitutionally protected elsewhere, and where the rules are not generally enforced by fines or imprisonment.
8.28.2006 7:48pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
TomHynes: It is I who am disappointed in you. See here, which a simple google search for site:volokh.com louisiana underwear would have uncovered. Underwear law is my specialty.
8.28.2006 8:28pm
Crunchy Frog:
Is there any way to ban the ubiquitous "plumber's crack"?
8.28.2006 8:43pm
Master Shake:

Extra-baggy pants started in prisons as easy access for sodomy, then became popular in inner-city ghettos, and now grace the posteriors of spoiled middle class and rich kids everywhere.
Do you really have absolutely no BS detector? Does it really seem reasonable to you that this is how the fashion started? Are you willing to pass off any old made-up nonsense as fact no matter how ridiculous it is? I have one word for you: Snopes. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

http://www.snopes.com/risque/homosex/sagging.asp
8.28.2006 8:56pm
Spartacus (www):
The extra baggy pants fashion does have ambiguous inner-city origins. Two more believable explanations are: 1) when being booked (though not yet actually incarcerated) for typical offenses, while still wearing his own street clothes, a "perp" is typically deprived of his shoelaces and belt, which can be used as a weapon, or to commit suicide. Hence, the recently freed bailee saunters out of lock up, belt in hand, pants slng low. 2) low-income younger brothers consigned to wearing their older brothers' pants that are still too big.

But "too low" pants fashions are not limited to the low slung male variety. Females often wear tight fitting pants that are specifically designed with an inseam of a very few inches--and a zipper of only 2 inches. I have seen panties creeping up not only from behind but up front. Certainly not criminal, but a bit silly. Meanwhile the poor girl is seen to contantly tug her jeans upward, to avoid revealing even another half inch, which would become obscene.
8.28.2006 10:34pm
Eric Wilner (mail) (www):
And what of superheroes, who traditionally wear their underwear on the outside?
8.29.2006 12:57am
Zach (mail):
Lawyer: Viewpoint neutral? Viewpoint neutral?! Your honor, short people and dogs don't even have to look at these abominable cracks which are a plague on our great nation. If anything, this law reinforces a viewpoint neutrality which was lost when the average citizen began to resemble Shamu. As such, it is actually unconstitutional for you to overturn this law.
8.29.2006 2:38am
jvarisco (www):
Is there some constitutional protection preventing a law like this? It is certainly possible to ban nudity, and I would imagine other things (e.g. underwear, toplessness, etc.) based on laws banning public lewdness or something of the sort. Is there any reason this should not be enacted? Dressing like a bum is hardly speech.
8.29.2006 3:03am
Apodaca:
If the ordinance is enacted and subsequently challenged in court, will the plaintiff be obliged to file his briefs under seal?
8.29.2006 12:42pm
alice:
My aged mum snuck up on a kid in the grocery store one day with his pants falling down around his ankles and hissed in his ear "hitch up your pants before I call the cops and turn you in for indecent exposure" and whoop--up went the pants.
8.29.2006 2:47pm