One of the many amazing posts on the website of suspected Montreal killer, Kimveer Gill, who posted as "fatality666" are the results of some online polls he took (August 31). He reports that he had an 84% chance of going postal:
In another interesting post, fatality666 warns others that they might be arrested for what they post online (June 11):Some quizes I did
How evil are you?
Take the quiz: Which famous dictator are you?
Adolf Hitler You're Adolf Hitler! You're the most famous, psychotic, genocidal madman ever to taint the pages of history books! You're a fascist. Anyone who questions you is quickly dealt with... Sure, you're a little compulsive and needy but you've accomplished a LOT, as far as MURDERING, TERRORIZING and CONQUERING go! Bottom line: You're out of your mind and you have a superiority complex the size of the sun. You're one egocentric freak. . . .
Take the quiz: What Movie Criminal Are You?
Bonnie & Clyde: The Criminal Criminal "This here's Miss Bonnie Parker. I'm Clyde Barrow. We rob banks." . . .
You have a 84% chance of going postal!
Er... well, you're in the at-risk area. Best work out those anger issues. Join a gym, perhaps. Remember, no matter how moronic their genetic contributuion to the gene pool may be, subtle sterilization is a lot less messy.
[POLL] How Likely Are You to Go Postal? . . .
Probability of killing, 86%
You have killed someone, or tried to kill yourself many times. You may have many enemies and no one to help you. Over exposure to death will ultimately cause you to break easily. Consider yourself a danger to society. Seek professianal help immediately!
[POLL] Are you capable of killing[?]
Mood:Satanic Muhahahaha Music:Satyricon
Another post is simply entitled "Hate":Warning
Look out friends
The RCMP and CSIS in Canada and Local Law enforcement and F.B.I. in the States have been scouring this web site during the last 3 months. Looking to arrest you guys and girls for nothing.
Ever since that girl from Alberta killed her family, they've been going through the pros, and have arrested dozens of people because of what they wrote in their journals (like talking about killing someone), or the pics they got (like holding a gun) or whatever.
Just be careful about what you write. Select "Private Entry" for anything that might be perceived as suspicious. For now.
I hate this world
I hate the people in it
I hate the way people live
I hate god
I hate the deceivers
I hate betrayers
I hate religious zealots
I hate everythingI hate so much
(I could write 1000 more lines like these, but does it really matter, does anyone even care)
Look what this wretched world has done to me
Mood:I hate everything
Related Posts (on one page):
- More from Fatality666's Website.--
- Montreal Killer: Meet Trench, the Angel of Death.--
- Montreal School Gunman Identified.--
You have a point. Certainly there are no legal issues of consequence in a case such as this ... er, I mean, there are no related issues such as psychology that might affect the law ... no, wait, I mean there's nothing we can learn from the case, legal or otherwise, that might be of interest to VC readers ... hang on ....
The only thing I've learned is that a couple law-interested folks have never read a LiveJournal.
This guy was playing a character, and a horribly stereotypical one as well. This rings about as true as someone suicide bombing a church wearing fake payot and a yarmulke, and then finding his weblog stocked with polls spouting "you really love your gefilte!"
Please do not think that this guy ever had anything to do with the "goth" subculture. Please do not associate them with his actions. Please do not confuse the cartoonish caricature he worked to become with the people he was trying to pretend to be.
He no doubt wanted a lot of publicity for his sick views.
Congratulations Jim Lindgren.
Prof. Lindgren should be criticized for deviating from this clearly-established list of acceptable topics.
This is a little more "fringe," but it's still the sort of stuff that young people do, particularly in these days of pre-packaged digital self-identification. I tend to agree with Amit Varma, who said about this fellow's website:
"Scary stuff, but trust me, I knew many, many teenagers in college who'd talk like that and act all tough. It's mostly just bluster and pose, and you never, ever know which one of them is going to pick up a gun one day -- until he does."
Trying to figure out which student is going to "pop" is like trying to guess which kernel of corn is going to pop first if you dump them into grease and start up the heat. You can't possibly guess, all you can do is try to change the conditions, i.e., stop isolating kids into their own little worlds and bring back a healthy diet of integration with adults, responsibilities, jobs, chores, and the other things that over time add up to something approaching meaning.
-M.E. Lopez
Give me a break, people. The crime struck Lindgren for some reason; he has a blog; he's blogging on it. You got a prob with that, it's a big Internet. Go confirm your prejudices elsewhere.
The point of these posts is support for stricter gun control, right?
Of course not! Had each of those victims been armed with automatic weapons, they'd still be scraping Mr. Gill off the pavement.
LOL!
Some people read true crime books, as a way to experience excitement. Some are enthralled by the gansta subculture that to them represents urbanity and black/white relations (most average suburban kids have this interest, it seems.)
Probably his interest here is linked to his work on guns and violence. He is sharing his interest in a slice of life that is exciting to him. Professors have their needs, and conventional lives to escape, too.
Lindren likes guns and people who use them. Gill was a gun-lover who lived (and died) his creed. For that reason, he has Jimmy's envy and admiration.
what's so special about this loony's choice of memes? ras
What's "special" is the loony himself. Unlike the other Goths, he didn't just fantasize, he acted. Perhaps on the surface he looked like all other loons, or at least the Goth ones, but there was something different about him.
If we look closer, will we be able to see what it was, and to learn from that? Maybe, maybe not, but I think we should at least try rather than assume.
Ahhh - here it comes. This school shooter was a "terrorist".
No he wasn't - he was a school shooter. Next you're going to go through history trying to call Dahmer and Bundy and BTK killer terrorists.
And let me guess: This occurrence now proves that we need to do mass psychological testing and drugging of the whole population. (Lobbied for by Big Pharma and supported by the APA, et. al.)
Too bad at least one of the Columbine shooters was already being pumped full of brain candy, a lot of good that did. But I'm sure that's not going to stop anyone from wasting large amounts of taxpayer money, infringing on privacy as much as possible, infringing on fundamental rights as much as possible, and making sure we hand even more power, influence, and control to bureaucrats, politicians, and their pet "experts". And clearly anyone that disagrees with them is dangerous and on their way to some kind of violent act.
But, then, all he said was "Metal and Goth kick ass", no?
I'm not worried about a giant anti-Metal backlash either, personally.
(Remember, kids, carving "SLAYER" into your arms is self-destructive, not murderous, except to your chances of getting a real job.)
ras: Your typical gothygoth doesn't fantasize about killing other people. (Assuming they fantasize about killing anyone, which seems less typical than posing in bad clothes, talking about vampires, and being sad, in my experience.)
naw, Punk totally co-opted Emo. The Emo kids are what the Goth kids call "posers."
Finally a group that even the Goths can call "posers."
/I prefer "poseurs"
But Clayton, the comment's point seemed to be not that a lot of goth kids aren't depressed (such a claim would be pretty absurd), but rather that they aren't into killing other people and shooting up schools (note that it turns out the Columbine killers didn't actually listen to M. Manson, follow any goth subculture, or have any unusual hatred for jocks in particular). 99.99999999% of goth kid neither are or want to be insane killers (well, unless those insane killers are also vampires with great clothes), just like most former soldiers and libertarian gun freaks don't blow up federal buildings.
Xx20, emo is short for "Emotional." It describes a type of dress and common attitudes of certain teenagers. It is derived from a certain genre of music (also called emo) very much akin to Punk, but emo style is largely separate from emo music.
The emo style, or emo kids, used to be typified by thrift-store clothing and darker colors. Since that became mainstream in 2001-02, the Emo kids have moved more into smaller and tighter-cut shirts, womens-cut shorts and pants (worn by the boys, I mean), and dark make-up. Black eyeshadow is common, even among the boys.
Parents often freak out about emo kids for the very reason that they're not quite mainstream. (Also, they may be concerned when they see their son in make-up and capris.) But there is no evidence that emo kids are more likely to off themselves or others than "normal" kids.
As for why I would post Gill's thoughts, I think it is important to understand what he was thinking as a way of understanding why he killed. This event, like other school shootings, tends to lead to calls for more gun control, which is a hot political issue in Canada and the US.
I'm always surprised that so many VC readers interpret every post as an editorial and wonder what argument I am advancing by offering evidence. Often I don't know yet what to think, but am curious for more facts than the MSM usually offers.
I don't have any strong views on what should be done to prevent events such as the Montreal shooting. My public views on guns--that gun control doesn't have a big effect but probably tends to reduce violent crime slightly--leaves me relatively happy with most existing gun controls and open but skeptical about the efficacy of new controls.
Further, one fact worth noting is the coincidence of police being there on campus on another matter probably greatly reduced the death toll.
I also posted these details because I expected Gill's webpage to be shut down, and news reports would be limited to summaries of his comments taken out of context. Thus, those who did want to try to understand Gill's motives in the future would be limited to reading this site, Ace of Spades, and some others. I wanted some of the more interesting posts to be in effect archived for others to read in the future.
Last, I don't think that some relevant facts bearing on Gill's motives are yet fully released. I have been waiting for some public confirmation of the speculation I've heard about his choice of targets, which are almost invariably described in news reports as "random."
Are there any VC readers from Montreal who can tell me what the official and the slang names were for the cafeteria at Dawson College that Gill chose to turn into a "shooting gallery"?
* Paranoia
* Blaming bullies and anyone or anything with power/authority
* Obsession with death
* Suicidal tendencies/obvious depression
* Wildly disorganized posts which change subject mid-sentence
* Regular complaints of his head hurting
* Possible hallucinations, "I just wish people could see what I see"
I'm no psychiatrist, but that looks like schizophrenia.
-Riskable
http://www.riskable.com
"I have a license to kill -9"
-Riskable
http://www.riskable.com
"I have a license to kill -9"
So he was a "school shooter" not a terrorist? Was Beslan a school shooting or a terrorist act? In terms of motives (and degree) Beslan is clearly distinguishable from this (and Columbine). But in terms of the actual acts committed they are similar. Do I think that this guy was a "terrorist" like Al-Qaeda? No. My point was that there will be someone down the road (e.g. Janet Reno or Katie Couric) who will say that they are and that the government should use the same surveillance techniques to prevent these acts.
With regard to drugging people; if I said I thought these guys are terrorists why would I want to medicate them? While it would be nice to medicate OBL, I can think of preferrable ways of dealing with him.
Maybe for some it is a fashion statement, but for a lot that I have run into (some of the losers my daughter hung around with), they are desperately unhappy, in need of serious help--but too proud to accept it.
Yeah, the goth kids your daughter hung out with were "losers", but she isn't. And I'll bet when she starts having consensual sex it will be the guy's (or who knows, gal's) fault- they obviously "seduced", "charmed", or "did" something to her.
The point, Jim, is you are mixing rare non-political acts of disturbed people in with the "War On Terror". This is going to be used to use the rights violations enabled by the "War On Terror" to supposedly stop school shootings as well. So the military-intel complex built up to go after "terrorists" is now going to be focused on regular citizens, just as most of the critics predicted.
And its all going to be one big boondoggle - lots of money wasted, lots of rights violated, lots of government bloat - for little or no benefit.
As for why I would post Gill's thoughts, I think it is important to understand what he was thinking as a way of understanding why he killed.
But that's the thing, reading what he wrote really doesn't give us much understanding as to why he did what he did. Literally millions of teens and young adults write and say similar things but don't kill or harm anyone. So it's going to wind up like the aftermath of Columbine - everyone's going to be badmouthing any kids they don't like or that wear black, and then they're going to slam modern music, movies, and video games, and then they're going to use it for whatever Nanny-state or Big-Government agenda they happen to have at the moment.
I have to disagree with your statement "reading what he wrote really doesn't give us much understanding as to why he did what he did." True, many other depressed kids and adults say similar things, and true, it's difficult to understand what is going on someone's mind, especially a murderer. But this guy's thoughts, posted on his website, is the best insight as to what made him tick. He was a troubled individual; and it's a not a bad idea to attempt to find out why he was troubled by looking at what he said, so that we can learn something in order to help other troubled individuals.
Just take it as a sign that the Volokh Conspiracy has hit the big-time, because it now has a group of devoted readers who have an expectation of what is posted on the Volokh Conspiracy and who feel entitled to dictate to you, the posters, what is an appropriate or inappropriate blog posting. Keep up the ecletic and interesting work!
But I've found goths are generally not that violent. The worst I've seen is people getting drunk and picking fights, but those fights are generally physical and don't involve firearms. Goths are more likely to mock, revile, or feel somehow superior to people who antagonize them. In fact, if you approach them casually and without obvious prejudice, they're some of the most accepting people out there. The attitude is "we're all f___ups in some way. I'm f___ed up, you're f___ed up..."
The point is, goths are more self-involved than anything else, and can't be bothered to care enough about you to kill you. I say again: this shooter was a caricature and will be used to smear an entire subculture, the vast majority of whom revile his actions as much as anyone else does. I say again: how would you feel if someone slapped on fake payot, a yarmulke, and proclaimed his love for gefilte, and the news stories focused on his being "a Jew"?
And no, I don't wear clown makeup or dress in all-black, or have tattoos or piercings. Got a kid at Yale? Maybe he or she took one of my calculus classes. If so, I'll bet dollars to dimes that they couldn't tell by looking at me what music I listen to or where I go to unwind from time to time. Aren't there some blawgers from GMU and GWU around? Ask them if they can pick out the goths in their law classes. I know at least five. "Goth" isn't something you can tell just by looking, and the ones you recognize are hardly representative, just like so many other groups in this country.
Further, these kinder-goths that you notice such personal problems in: they're just less interested in hiding it than most teenagers. They deal with it by wearing it on their (fishnet) sleeves rather than scoring points for sexual conquests or tearing some guy's head off on the football field. And they're not exactly "too proud" to accept help. They're distrustful of authority, which I would think a self-proclaimed libertarian-leaner would understand. If you come in as the parental figure they're going to throw up the defenses. If you approach them as a human being first and a confused adolescent second, you'd have a lot more luck getting through. Then again, I get the feeling you're too interested in alienating them and chalking them all up as misfit losers to even attempt that sort of empathy.
You're exactly why people are going to tar every single goth with the same brush as is used on this shooter.
But this guy's thoughts, posted on his website, is the best insight as to what made him tick. He was a troubled individual; and it's a not a bad idea to attempt to find out why he was troubled by looking at what he said, so that we can learn something in order to help other troubled individuals.
Well if that was actually happening I might agree with you, but it seems that most people putting on the armchair psychologist's hat in this instance are just: (a) getting morbid thrills from it; or (b) just trying to pick out whatever this guy had in common with people or things they dislike to confirm their own prejudices. It seems too much like a combination carnival sideshow and public hanging to be what you describe.
Fact is, a lot of people have a rough time in school. You're sequestered with a bunch of people you don't know in an environment you can't escape. If you're lucky, you have educators who care and you make a lot of friends and go on to have a great life. But plenty of people stick out early, and kids aren't nice to each other, and a lot of the time teachers are too busy to notice or can't be bothered to stop it. Being around terrible people, day in and day out, for years, is not good for a man.
An awful lot of these kids turn their difference into a badge of honor, as it were. Damned straight, none of the nerds I knew (or was [am!]) were interested in trading a couple dozen IQ points for a "normal" social life. Practically everyone running every computer network you have ever used came through this kind of environment; when you read "bastard operator from hell" stories, it's pure nerd payback revenge fantasy. ;p
The goth subculture isn't the weirdest subculture a misfit can fall into, but it ain't healthy either. Nor is it really new - it's the same romanticism with death that's attended us ever since consumption was considered to be a poetic disease, just with a "raw, new" punk influence. It's also enough to freak out practically any parent, which is tough - you guys got up to some -strange- things back in the day, how the hell is a kid supposed to top that?
As an anime fan, I see people who have trouble hanging on to reality all the time. Most of them either get help from friends or retreat into quiet, inoffensive lives. Some, well, they don't.
So what's the policy prescription? Damned if I know. It's easy to say "go find someone and help him out", but it's not the sort of thing that'll work if you just go out and snag a guy in mascara off the street, and how do you know who needs the help? Best thing you can do is to just bring your kids up to be nice to people, I suppose...