Allen/Webb bleg:

I live in Virginia and am looking at various Allen/Webb materials. But suppose I don't care about Allen's business interests, use of racial slurs, or Jewish heritage, or about Webb's graphic novels. Does anyone have any input on whether -- based on his policy positions -- Allen is one of the best of the Republican lot in the Senate, one of the worst, or middling?

Justin (mail):
11.4.2006 11:48am
jimboinsk (mail):
One measure of Allen's tech friendliness. Something to consider as a blogger.
11.4.2006 11:52am
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Allen strongly supported the nomination of Roger Gregory to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. Gregory is the first African American on that court. Judge Gregory had previously been nominated by President Clinton, so it was a generous and rare act of bipartisanship for Allen to ask that Bush renominate Gregory. Allen's speech about Gregory is here.

I don't know a whole lot about Allen's stances on other issues, though.
11.4.2006 12:00pm
godfodder (mail):
Kinda difficult to say what constitutes a "best" Republican vs a "worst" Republican. Beauty, in that case, is definitely in the eye of the beholder. It maybe easier to place Allen on a Left-Right axis, or effective-ineffective, or active-passive, or partisan-nonpartisan. Something a little less subject to observer bias.
11.4.2006 12:08pm
Sasha Volokh (mail) (www):
I left the question open-ended so different commenters could fill in their own blanks. One path to take, for instance, would be to evaluate Allen based on whether he's contributed to the trend of Republicans voting for big government and big spending.
11.4.2006 12:09pm
fishbane (mail):
Info on Webb,

- USC, then Annopolis, and earned the Navy Cross, along with various other honors.
- After the the military, he went to Georgetown law. He has been very active in government, and was the Asst. Secretary of Defense, and then Secretary of the Navy under Reagan. He was largely responsible for cleaning up a number of issues with the Marines, in the day.
- He's a bit of a policy wonk, which, depending on your outlook, might be a good or a bad thing. (A plus, in my book.)

I don't live there, and Allen isn't my Senator. I don't know how well he's done for the locals. I'm also of the throw-the-bums-out mindset at the moment. Now that my biases are stated, I have difficulty imagining supporting the guy. Can't say I like Webb either, but you go to the polls with the alternatives you have, not the alternatives you wish you had.
11.4.2006 12:13pm
Hans Bader (mail):
It's said that George Allen has achieved more than most freshman senators, but what exactly that entails is unclear.

Allen was a highly successful governor, abolishing parole for violent criminals and reforming welfare (accomplishments that politically correct journalists opposed and have never forgiven him for).

But it's easier to pinpoint a governor's accomplishments than a senator's. Junior senators typically have far less power and influence than senior senators, and Allen has been in office for only one term.

My guess is that if Jim Webb ousts Allen, and gets elected, he'll discover that in a hurry. Webb has plenty of expertise in the area of defense, but not in the other issue areas that come before the Senate. He may end up being bored by much of what goes on in the Senate.
11.4.2006 12:13pm
Steve:
One path to take, for instance, would be to evaluate Allen based on whether he's contributed to the trend of Republicans voting for big government and big spending.

I have not seen any significant deviations from the Republican party line on Allen's part. For the last year or two he's seemed more interested in exploring Presidential prospects than doing anything significant in the Senate, to be perfectly honest, but he's showed up and cast his votes with the majority.
11.4.2006 12:34pm
Ted F (www):
Allen co-sponsored the Class Action Fairness Act, while Webb's website uncritically repeats trial-lawyer talking points that have no bearing on reality.

Allen has been a supporter of free trade, while Webb criticizes it.

It'd be nice to know how Webb would vote on judges, but he hasn't said boo on the issue. Allen has been a party-line vote for Alito and Roberts and cloture against filibustering nominations.

Webb is arguably a better human being than the silver-spoon Allen (though Webb's anti-Semitic attacks on his Jewish Democratic primary opponent with campaign literature portraying him as a hook-nosed "antiChrist of outsourcing" with money spilling out of his pockets sure gives me pause), but for a junior Senator, what counts is how people vote, not their motivations for doing so.
11.4.2006 1:45pm
AF:
Given the closeness of the race both in VA and nationally, I would encourage you to consider whether you would prefer the Democrats or the Republicans to control the Senate.
11.4.2006 1:54pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Ditto what AF said, and assume that the Democrats will very probably take control of the House.
11.4.2006 2:01pm
M. Lederman (mail):
Sasha: Do you really want us to "suppose" (even arguendo) that you don't care about the fact that Allen has a history of open racial insensitivity (to put it as euphemistically as possible), and has made a habit out of using thinly-veiled (if that) race cards ("real" Virginians, as opposed to . . . you know) in campaigning and in other social settings? That you'd actually consider voting for someone like that? That such "racial slurs" -- and Allen's other racial overtures down through the years (e.g., his confederate flag fetish) -- should be treated as remotely analogous to his mother's religion or the graphic nature of Webb's novels?

Didn't think so.

Cheers,

Marty
11.4.2006 2:06pm
U.Va. 2L (mail):
"real" Virginians, as opposed to . . . you know

Prof. Lederman--

I'm not from Virginia, so perhaps I'm missing something, but I assumed this wasn't a racial reference. Rather, I thought Allen was referring to people from Northern Virginia as opposed to the rest of the state. (I wouldn't vote for Allen anyway, but I assumed he was referring to something like the Chicagoland/downstate divide in Illinois or upstate/NYC in New York.)
11.4.2006 2:23pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Ted F, I hadn't realized that Webb called his Jewish primary opponent the "antichrist." That's pretty extreme language. If Allen had said something like that, just imagine the uproar.
11.4.2006 2:34pm
p.d.:
M Lederman:

If you reread Sasha's post, he says "but suppose I don't care..." about all of those issues, and that he's trying to get policy evaluations. Everyone who's voted in an election during recent years has *had* to consider both personal character and policy factors in making one's decision, and it's pretty clear that the Allen/Webb race has become a joke of a character campaign for both candidates. Neither man seems particularly pleasant, but what an otherwise conservative person has to ask is whether Allen's policy positions outweigh his personal baggage. We did this for Clinton, we did this for Bush, so let's not be purposely obtuse in this case.
11.4.2006 2:44pm
Jim Hu:
M. Lederman,

If Allen's history (some of which is disputed, but hey, I'm still wondering about the noose as much as the Confederate flag) is not a problem for Va black pols who have endorsed him, why should Sasha treat it as a deal breaker?

See: Byrd, R (D - W. Va).
11.4.2006 3:03pm
Reinhold (mail):
On a somewhat related topic, any updates on the debate at Mason on the Virginia amendment on marriage?
11.4.2006 3:06pm
Bruno (mail):
I looked at Webb's web site, just out of curiosity, to see if he promotes anything interesting on Iraq / the war on terror--the only issue that interests me. He doesn't. His position is full of inacuracies, open prejudice, and show a shaky grasp of the issues. I wouldn't vote for him, on that basis alone, no matter what his other ideas are.
11.4.2006 3:27pm
Kovarsky (mail):
I'm not from Virginia, so perhaps I'm missing something, but I assumed this wasn't a racial reference. Rather, I thought Allen was referring to people from Northern Virginia as opposed to the rest of the state. (I wouldn't vote for Allen anyway, but I assumed he was referring to something like the Chicagoland/downstate divide in Illinois or upstate/NYC in New York.)

actually, i think he was contrasting "real americans" with the people who webb was rubbing elbows with in california at the time.

i would also add that allen gets a sort of fortuitous pass on the "maquaques" comment in print media. if you listen to the pronunciation as opposed to read it, the word is pronounced differently than you would expect it to be - precisely the pronunciation you would expect to hear from someone from his mother's birthplace.
11.4.2006 3:28pm
pireader (mail):
The best indicator of an incumbent senator's policy position is his/her voting record. For that, Poole and Rosenthal are the go-to guys.

P&R summarize senators' voting records on a scale of economic conservatism to liberalism. They rank Allen 23rd out of 100 senators, which makes him pretty conservative for the Senate as a whole, but puts him square in the middle of the Republicans (23rd of 55)
11.4.2006 3:33pm
Sasha Volokh (mail) (www):
Marty: Yes, I do.
11.4.2006 3:47pm
a reader:
Wowsers.
11.4.2006 4:22pm
Ted F (www):
Andrew Hyman,

I agree entirely. It's a remarkable example of a media double-standard that an off-the-cuff comment by Allen is treated with so much more concern than offical campaign literature bigotry from Webb's camp. It also puts Webb's remark that army service is the "Scotch-Irish bar mitzvah" in a nauseating light.

Marty: Would I have found the teenage Allen an insufferable and offensive fratboy? Sure. I care more what the grownups are doing.
11.4.2006 4:22pm
Nate F (mail):
I'm sort of a fan of Project Vote Smart (vote-smart.org), assuming the candidate could be bothered to fill out an IPAT. They also have a lot of interest group ratings, some vote records, etc. Maybe everyone is aware of this, but I suspect less people are than should be.
11.4.2006 5:38pm
picpoule:
Sasha, if smaller government is the primary value in choosing which candidate to vote for, then you have to vote Republican. Smaller government is not an ideal of the Democrat party. Although spending by Republicans today is a fair criticism, a Democrat will always vote for even more spending. In other words, you have a far better chance for getting votes for smaller government with a Republican in the Senate than a Democrat in the Senate.
11.4.2006 5:40pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Nate F is correct. Project Vote Smart has lots of good info about Allen and Webb.

For Webb, see here

For Allen, see here.
11.4.2006 6:16pm
Sasha Volokh (mail) (www):
Picpoule: When Republicans don't vote for smaller government themselves, then it may be appropriate to punish them by voting for the other guy, even when that other guy is worse.

Of course it depends on (1) how bad the other guy is, (2) whether failure will make your guy learn the lesson you want him to learn, (3) how long it will take before you can reelect your (chastened) guys, and so on.

And all that contributes to whether your punishment strategy is to punish the whole party, just punish the worst half, just punish the worst tenth, etc.

But if you always vote for the guy who's marginally better at the moment, you're inviting him to take you for granted. Therefore, while you might do that most of the time, or even all the time, it shouldn't be your strategy as a matter of principle.
11.4.2006 6:17pm
Another Virginian:
Well, George Will is apparently disenchanted with George Allen, if that means anything. See his column last Sunday.

I don't like George Allen. In fact, I think he is an embarassment. George ALlen also built many new prisons in Virginia (got to put them somewhere if there's no discretion on parole), costing a fortune. Then, as they were finished, the demographic change happened (with a "bubble" in the population of 18 - 34 year olds--the group that commits more crimes--aging out of the most crime prone years) and there was lots of surplus capacity in the prisons. That's why Virginia "imports" so many prisoners from other states.

My military spouse made sure to vote absentee ballot just to vote against him, something I look forward to as well.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that the president has been given such a free pass on virtually everything he wants to do, with little to no oversight by Congress is reason enough to vote them all out. George Allen just has given Virginians additional reasons to do so. Frankly, I don't care to be represented by ANYONE who thinks the executive has unilateral authority to declare someone (citizen or not) an enemy combatant and hold them incommunicato. Are we living in the U.S. of A. or Argentina? No "disappeareds" here, please. I find it interesting that Bob Barr (!) is one of the few voices I've heard raised in concern about this.

The "real Virginia" was not a contrast to Webb being someplace else. It was him trying to be a "good old boy" and play to (assumed) prejudices of those in the SW corners of the state. Shameful.
11.4.2006 6:37pm
Kovarsky (mail):
i think justin answered sasha's bleg on the first comment.

basically, allen is exactly where you'd expect a social, political, and economic conservative to be on every issue. either that appeals to you or it doesn't.

thanks justin, i didn't know that he voted against MLK day.
11.4.2006 7:59pm
Justin (mail):
Just to add, the most important vote that any senator does is his vote for Majority Leader. If you think the GOP should control the Senate, you should probably vote for Allen (and seek professional psychotherapy). Otherwise, you should vote for Webb.
11.4.2006 8:11pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Kovarsky, there were conservatives who voted for MLK day and there were conservatives who voted against, and there were legitimate arguments on both sides. Personally, I was for it, but Allen did vote against it in the Virginia House of Delegates.

The legitimate argument against it was that plenty of very great Americans don't have holidays in their honor, such as the Roosevelts, Jefferson, Madison, and the like. The US Senate vote was 78-22, with people like Warren Rudman and Barry Goldwater voting against. However, there were 54 GOP senators at the time, so obviously most GOP senators voted in favor of MLK holiday on October 19, 1983. Reagan gave a very good speech honoring King, and he signed the legislation.

Without knowing what Allen's reasons were in the Virginia House of Delegates 23 years ago, it's kind of difficult to hold that vote against him, at least for me.
11.4.2006 8:41pm
va:
VC is usually quick to point out violations of free speech rights. But no comment on how Allen's supporters treated the UVA law student? Just to feed the hypocrisy line, one wonders what would have been the case had national news media displayed video of supporters of a Democratic candidate throwing a young conservative to the ground after accusing him of asking an "inappropriate question." Shouldn't there be some sort of demand for an apology and a statement of First Amendment principles from the Senator?
11.4.2006 10:02pm
picpoule:
Sasha, I understand those arguments. But I believe in winning. Not punishing because the party doesn't do exactly what we want at all times. If you want to punish Republicans, it is your vote. I personally don't believe in punishing my party. The only politicians I want to punish are those who explicitly promote bigger, centralized government by not voting for them and hopefully keeping them out of power. I believe in winning with people who will at least be receptive to hearing me out on my values and the political ideals I cherish most.
11.4.2006 10:03pm
just me:
I think Sasha's formula gets it right, about disciplining the GOP to get back to small government, but the biggest factor in the formula is the JUDGES. When we hope for the GOP to lose, so that they reform and come back better in 2 or 4 years, the price we pay is what the Dems do in the interim. If the Dems raise taxes, we have to try to lower them, etc.

But if a Democrat Senate blocks judges, or forces a more "moderate" pick, we're stuck for decades paying that price.

Hence, if the GOP needs punishing, let them lose the House, not the Senate. So hold your nose and vote for Allen. A vote for Allen is a vote for another John Roberts. A vote for Webb, and for a Democratic Senate, is a vote for a probably blow-up of the Gang of 14 truce, and a return to full-scale filibuster obstructionism -- esp. with 2 years on the Presidential clock. If you believe Judge Jeff Sutton and others have really been ogres, or that the 6th Circuit deserved to be horribly understaffed for years over Levin's temper tantrum about a relative's nomination under Clinton, then vote Webb.

And Prof. Lederman, respectfully: I look forward to the day the Dems get honest about Sen. Byrd's KKK roots, and his use of the N-word on TV in modern times. And the day when guilty white liberals face up to the virulent anti-Semitism of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and when the Left faces broader anti-Semitism in academia generally. THEN I'll start to worry about Allen's fratboy antics.
11.4.2006 10:36pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
va, the UVA law student attacked and the Allen people defended themselves. See here.
11.4.2006 10:58pm
John Noble (mail):
Justin's link to ontheissues.org accurately portrays Allen as a reliably immoderate, red meat conservative. If you want a more impressionistic assessment from a D.C. lawyer and political junkie who calls himself a Jackson Democrat (that would be Andrew and Scoop, not Jesse), I see him as unintelligent, unimaginative, unnuanced. He wouldn't recognize a new idea if it slapped him in the face. His political rhetoric is jingoistic, and larded with sports analogies.* He's smugly anti-intellectual; and he owes his every accomplishment to his father's legacy. Add the cowboy boots he wears to affect a down-home quality that masks a background of wealth, privilege, and prep schools, and you have George Bush without the affability.

* With a two-point lead and time running out, his campaign is in a zone defense, with the coach on the sidelines screaming "Don't foul!"
11.4.2006 11:22pm
Eli Rabett (www):
Webb has been thinking and talking about Iraq for quite a long time, well before this campaign. First of all he said it would be a clusterfuck early on and strenuously advised against it. For that alone he should get points.

His position paper is straightforward:

First and foremost is Iraq. Iraq is in a crisis that we must address now in order to make progress on all other security matters. The invasion of Iraq was a double strategic blunder. First, it was a diversion from, not a response to, the war against international terrorism. Second, it has tied down our military in a costly occupation, fighting an insurgency that has strengthened not only the Shia population of Iraq, but also Iran itself.


Of course a lot of people here demand that those who advised against picking up that piece of china and throwing it to the ground are the ones who have to have a plan for putting it back together. Sorry folks, about all we have left is a less bad way of losing. Webb says that the US should first clearly state that it has no intention of staying in Iraq for the long term, the second step would be to start looking for diplomatic support and solutions. I appear to remember a certain Eisenhower having about the same plan to end the Korean war.

You may not like his plan, but it is a lot like the ways that the Korean and Vietnam wars were ended
11.4.2006 11:40pm
Hans Bader (mail):
I myself have a Harvard Law degree, but I think it would be a mistake to vote against Allen based on the fact that he is not a rocket scientist.

Most of the self-described "smart" people sneered at welfare reform, saying it would never work, but George Allen, as Virginia's governor, made it happen, and the state is better off for it.

Most of the "sophisticated" lawyers opposed getting rid of parole for violent criminals, but George Allen, as Virginia's governor, pushed for it, and got it. And Virginia's crime rate is down compared with neighboring jurisdictions.

Not too long ago, crime rates were similar in Montgomery County, Maryland, and Fairfax County, Virginia, two adjacent, demographically similar, equally wealthy counties.

Now, the crime rate is much lower in the Virginia county (Fairfax) than in the neighboring Maryland county (Montgomery), about half as high.

One contributing factor is that Virginia, under George Allen, got tough on crime, and Maryland didn't.

Most self-described intellectuals opposed the above successes of the Allen administration (reforming welfare and ending parole for violent criminals), wrongly viewing these measures as pandering to ignorant yahoos.

They were wrong, as history has demonstrated. They resent that.

And I think they especially resent the fact that Allen, a man with a fairly typical IQ, proved them wrong.

His accomplishments show that common sense does not require exceptional intelligence, nor do intellectuals necessarily have common sense.
11.4.2006 11:47pm
wolfefan (mail):
The "welcome to the real Virginia" quote almost certainly had nothing to do with California (where Sen. Allen grew up, btw) - I don't think the Allen campaign has claimed that, or at least not very loudly. The plain fact is that, at a gathering of white people, Sen. Allen picked out the only non-white in the room and made fun of him, much to the delight of the rest of the crowd. While it may have been a reference to Northern Virginia, I doubt it unless one is willing to make the assumption that Sen. Allen thought any non-white at that rally must have been from outside the area. The irony, of course, is that the guy the Senator was mocking actually is from Virginia, as opposed to Sen. Allen.

I felt that Sen. Allen was a decent governor - certainly better than his successor - but hasn't brought any of the creativity or practicality he showed in that job to his role in the Senate. In this, he reminds me of the differences between Governor Bush and President Bush. An additional similarity is also the role of their famous fathers in their success.
11.5.2006 12:27am
David M. Nieporent (www):
Sasha, I understand those arguments. But I believe in winning.
That's fine... if you're a Republican. But if one is a small-government conservative, how is it "winning" to vote for Allen? Maybe he's less bad than Webb, but I wouldn't call it "winning" to get cancer rather than AIDS just because the former is less bad.
Not punishing because the party doesn't do exactly what we want at all times. If you want to punish Republicans, it is your vote. I personally don't believe in punishing my party. The only politicians I want to punish are those who explicitly promote bigger, centralized government
...like Allen. This isn't a debate about whether to vote for an unelectable 'pure' candidate vs. an electable flawed one; in that case, your comments would make sense. This is a debate about whether to vote for an electable lousy one. There's just no good choice here from an ideological perspective.

In any case, from a "winning" perspective, the correct question is not whether Webb or Allen is considered a win, but whether a GOP Senate or a Democratic Senate is. Not in the abstract, but given the situation we currently find ourselves in. A "win" to a small-government conservative is probably divided government, not a Republican one.

(Heck, a win to a Republican partisan might be divided government, because the only chance Republicans have of holding the White House in 2008 is if they have someone else to blame for the next two years. Or if the Democrats nominate Kerry.)
11.5.2006 5:44am
CLS (www):
What disgusting rubbish about Webb repeated from Right-wing blogs. Rubbish.

For what it is worth three of the REASON editors live in Virginia and all three said they are voting for Webb. My take on Allen is that he is a big government Republican using rhetoric for small-government but voting the Bush line most the time.

Now back to the accusations. Here is the "offending" brochure by the Webb campaign as a pdf. There is no reference to fictional "antiChrist" remark. The claim was that the drawing of Harris Miller was stereotypical antiJewish art. The problem with that claim is that the drawing of Miller basically looks like Miller. See here as well.

This accusation strikes me as really sleazy. The drawing of Miller looks like Miller. There was no reference to an "antiChrist".
11.5.2006 7:14am
Bruno (mail):
Eli Rabett: Thank you for quoting the part of Webb's Iraq position that vindicates my critique--it's full of inacuracies, open prejudice, and shows a shaky grasp of the issues.

1. Iraq is a "diversion from the war agains international terrorism." Firstly, we are not fighting "international terrorism", which is a tactic, not an enemy. We are fighting Islamic fascism, jihadism, radidal Islam, or whatever other name you want to call it. Then, to state that Saddam's Iraq was not related to jihadism is either ignorant or ingenuous. He was financing suidide bombers in Palestine; wanted terrorists were given safe haven in Iraq; after the Gulf War, he began to "islamize" his regime in many ways, among which was to invite important jihadists for strategy meetings; his agents were active in Sudan when bin Laden was there; and so on. Aside from this, which you may not accept, or may view as circumstantial, Webb's own formulation calls the enemy "international", that is, "stateless". It's not located in any state, but depends on a web (no pun intended) of alliances. Iraq was an important "node" in the web. It was, above all, a "node" that we were capable of taking out. And taking out the "node" has had important effects on "international terrorism": Syria is out of Lebanon; Libia gave up its WMD; there are strirrings of democracy in autocratic Gulf states; and so on.

2. Webb says that the invasion was a "strategic blunder" because it "strengthened the Shia population of Iraq". I don't know quite what to make of this. He seems to be saying that 'strengthening the Shia population" is automatically a bad idea, but I have no idea why. Of course, "strengthening the Shia population" is automatically a bad idea *if one is Sunni*, but Webb isn't Sunni. He only seems to be a victim of Sunni propaganda by his saying this. The Shia are the majority in Iraq, so why shouldn't they be strengthened?

3. The invasion has "strengthened Iran": where's the evidence for this? Iran today is surrounded by states that owe us some kind of loyalty (Afghanistan and Iraq). This naturally makes them paranoid and for good reason. They know they're next. I can think of nothing that would strengthen them more than a precipate withdrawal from Iraq, which is what Webb, and most (if not all) Democrats propose.
11.5.2006 10:04am
CJColucci:
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, what do you think of the play?
11.5.2006 10:07am
Reinhold (mail):
It sounds like the marriage debate at Mason went great. I'll vote accordingly . . .
11.5.2006 10:55am
techne (www):
I'm missing something, CLS. I followed the link you provided and this is the first non-cartooned text on the flyer:


Harris Miller, a corporate lobbyist, made his fortune by
advocating the outsourcing of American jobs. Called the
“anti-Christ of outsourcing,” Miller claims outsourcing “is
good for the American economy.”3


The remark is properly attributed. But looking at the big picture, as a Jew I find Allen's reaction to his heritage far more damning. His "aspersions" says a lot more than this "anti-Christ" about how anti-Semitic each man may or may not be.
11.5.2006 12:23pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
As someone with a Jewish background, I find Allen's reaction not the least bit damning. Let's go to the transcript:

Peggy Fox: Could you please tell us whether your forbearers include Jews, and if so, at which point Jewish identity might have ended? (Booing from the audience)

Allen: I'm glad you all have that, you have that reaction. You know what our first freedom in this country was? Freedom of religion, where people's rights are not enhanced or diminished on account of their religious beliefs. Thomas Jefferson was the author of that. As we try to stand up a free and just society, that's the first pillar of a free and just society. And to be getting into what religion my mother is, I don't think it's relevant, whatever one person believes, whatever their beliefs may be, is not relevant. So I'd like to ask you, why is that relevant? My religion, Jim's religion, or the religion beliefs of anyone out there. (applause)
My mother's French-Italian—

Fox: Honesty.

Allen:--with a little Spanish blood in her. And I was raised as she was, as far as I know, raised as a Christian. But if you really need to get into such matters—

Fox:--Honesty, that's all.

Allen: Oh, that's all? That's just all? We need, we need to get this country together. And I respect your right to ask questions. But let's ask questions about issues that really matter to people here, in Virginia, such as how we're going to bring this country together, make us more secure, a land of opportunity. And I'll tell you one other thing, preserve our foundational values, and one of those values is freedom of religion and not making aspersions about people because of their religious beliefs.


So, you think it's just find to cast aspersions about people because of their religious beliefs? Geez.
11.5.2006 1:22pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
P.S. Techne, regarding the "anti-christ" accusation, liability for republication of a defamatory statement is the same as for original publication, provided the defendant had knowledge of the contents of the statement.

It's obvious from the Webb flyer that the Webb campaign was backing the "anti-christ" claim. Do you really think Webb could wiggle out of resposibility if the flyer instead said that Miller had been "called a lying, sleazy murderous piece of scum who murdered his wife and stole from his employees"?
11.5.2006 1:46pm
Jacobus:

So, you think it's just find to cast aspersions about people because of their religious beliefs? Geez.

You think it's an "aspersion" to ask about somebody's Jewish heritage? As a fellow Jew, may I second your "geez."
11.5.2006 3:28pm
Average Joe (mail):
Another law professor who blogs, Ann Althouse, has a blog entry concerning James Webb. Althouse, who in the comment section states that

I'm happy to see Webb in the Senate. He's smart and independent. And he has a way with words. I expect a lot from him. It will be interesting!

makes some interesting observations that are,in my opinion, well worth reading. She uses an opinion column from the New York Times as the starting point of her observations. This column is also interesting. Here are a few excerpts, stolen from the blog entry:

Webb named his son after Robert E. Lee, and wrote a book, “Born Fighting,” which is a full-throated defense of “Rednecks. Trailer-park trash. Racists. Cannon fodder. My ancestors. My people. Me.”...

Jewish culture produces a lot of lawyers, Webb has argued, but Scots-Irish culture produces fighters, and he has spent his life defending the interests and values of these manly, individualistic, brawling populists.
Althouse excerpts more of the column, but I thought that Conspiracy readers might be interested in these specific excerpts, as they touch on issues that have been discussed extensively on this thread and on other Volokh Conspiracy threads that discuss the Virginia Senate race. In any case, the whole blog entry is short, well-written, and makes some excellent observations about this Senate race and about Webb's candidacy in particular.
11.5.2006 3:35pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Jacobus, let's put it this way, I agree with the "boos" noted in the transcipt. And I also agree with Allen's statement:

I'll tell you one other thing, preserve our foundational values, and one of those values is freedom of religion and not making aspersions about people because of their religious beliefs.


He didn't specifically accuse the reporter of casting aspersions at him. But it's very clear that the reporter was seeking to promote aspersions against Allen because of his Jewish background. Hence the boos.
11.5.2006 4:27pm
CJColucci:
But let's think a moment. Who, exactly, would have a problem with Allen having Jewish roots? I mean other than Jews.
11.5.2006 4:41pm
Enoch:
He's smart and independent.

What's "independent" about him? He's running as a Democrat. Is he not a Democrat?
11.5.2006 4:46pm
Chumund:
CJColucci,

I swear I was going to post the exact same Mrs. Lincoln line. Well done.

Anyway, I just wanted to note that if you really want smaller government, you should vote for split government. And the recent years of GOP single-party control have made that absolutely clear.
11.5.2006 4:57pm
Mac (mail):
Jacobus,



But the question is, why does it matter? Why was Peggy Fox asking the question?

[Peggy Fox: Could you please tell us whether your forbearers include Jews, and if so, at which point Jewish identity might have ended? (Booing from the audience) ]

It reads like a "So when did you quit beating your wife" question.

Can you even imagine her asking, "Did your forbearers include Catholics, Muslims, Presbyterians, African-Americans (you can fill in the blank) and if so, at which point that identity ended? I can't.

She says it's a matter of honesty. Huh? Why? Again, it is as if there is something that needs to be revealed like a dirty deed. I think Allen's response was totally appropriate to such a question. Since when does one's forbearers matter and why did it matter so terribly much to Ms. Fox that his ancesters may have been Jewish? If there is an anti-Semite in the crowd, I would look to her. It seems that not only Allen, but the audience who booed, knew exactly where Ms. Fox was coming from and it was not a pretty sight and both reacted precisely as they should.
11.5.2006 4:58pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
CJColucci, the reporter is not off the hook because she was appealing to a bunch of Jew-hating morons to turn against Allen. Suppose she had said to some other candidate, "Isn't it true that you're impotent, that you can't have any more kids, that you're shooting blanks, that you have about as much reproductive capacity as a cow pattie"? It makes no difference what she herself thinks of men who can't reproduce, just like it makes no difference what she herself thinks of Jews. And it makes no difference that she's trying to influence a few scummy cretins.
11.5.2006 5:04pm
Chumund:
FYI, Fox's question did not come out of the blue. Reports about Allen's Jewish ancestry had come out before, particularly in the Jewish periodical The Forward in late August (my guess is that The Forward was not, in fact, casting "aspersions"). Allen's campaign was refusing to comment on the story, and that was the context in which Fox asked her question.
11.5.2006 5:11pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
So you think Fox's question was relevant?
11.5.2006 5:15pm
Chumund:
By the way, I note that Andrew cut off the first part of Fox's question, which represented some of this backstory. As the transcript reveals, her full question was actually:

"May I ask a follow up? Following the macaca episode, the Jewish press published a story on the internet that explored your possible Jewish ancestry on your mother's side. You've been quoted as saying your mother's not Jewish, but it had been reported her father, your grandfather Felix, whom you were given your middle name for, was Jewish. Could you please tell us whether your forbearers include Jews, and if so, at which point Jewish identity might have ended?"

I think Fox asked her question in a pretty unfortunate fashion. But when you put it in context, her intent is clear (she wants Allen to explain the discrepancy between the report in The Forward and his own statements about his ancestry).
11.5.2006 5:15pm
Chumund:
Andrew,

Were you asking me if I thought Fox's question was relevant?

Personally, I do think The Forward's report raised a factual issue upon which Allen had not been clear, and indeed his later story was that until that time, he himself had not known what The Forward reported.

So, I think clarifying this matter was an extremely minor but perfectly understandable part of the campaign. But it should indeed have been nothing but a minor footnote, and it would have been if not for Allen's odd reaction.
11.5.2006 5:20pm
Chumund:
Incidentally, this is part of The Forward article in question:

"This might complicate life for Allen, a practicing Presbyterian who besides running for re-election this year in Virginia is often mentioned as a possible Republican 2008 contender. Political analyst John Mercurio of National Journal’s noted tip sheet, The Hotline, said that any complication 'would depend largely on how this information was revealed.'

'If it was discovered that Allen knew this family history, but attempted to keep it under wraps for whatever reason, it could do great harm to any political campaign,' Mercurio wrote in an e-mail. 'He’d face serious questions, in the wake of the Macaca incident and his history with the Confederate flag, of whether he’s both racially prejudiced and anti-semitic. Given the intensely pro-Israel sentiment that exists in this country today, that could be a huge political liability — but on the other hand, if this is something he discovers and promptly reveals about himself, and does so with a sense of pride in his family history, I don’t think he’d face much backlash at all.'"

It seems to me that Mercurio got it exactly right.
11.5.2006 5:25pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
If the reporter was questioning Allen's honesty, in that his grandfather was reportedly Jewish whereas Allen had purportedly denied his mother was Jewish, then it's still an absurd and trivial thing to bring up in a debate. Can't his mother be a practicing Christian while his grandfather was not?

Anyway, Allen has said he's fine with his Jewish heritage, so this is a non-issue. It's m ind-boggling that he's being criticized in this thread for making a very good statement in that debate:

I'll tell you one other thing, preserve our foundational values, and one of those values is freedom of religion and not making aspersions about people because of their religious beliefs.


To vote against someone because of a statement like this would be disgraceful.
11.5.2006 5:49pm
Chumund:
Andrew,

I agree that the confusion over Allen's ancestry--which was caused by Allen himself--should have been a trivial matter, but trivia comes up in campaigns all the time. And interestingly, Allen did not, as you suggest doing, treat it as trivia. Rather, he treated the suggestion that he had Jewish ancestry as an "aspersion", and that really is a pretty disturbing thing to say.

All that said, I don't think this is nearly as significant as the macaque incident. Personally, that was simply a deal-breaker for me, whereas I at least feel some sympathy for Allen given the impossible task his mother apparently placed upon him (namely, to refuse to discuss his Jewish ancestry even though it had already come out).
11.5.2006 6:07pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
I agree the macaca incident was very troubling. All I can say about that is that Allen has apologized quite a bit for that, and there are equally troubling things Webb has said, like the bit about Webb's Jewish opponent being an Anti-Christ. As far as I can tell, it balances out. (And, as far as I know, Allen hasn't written any porn.)

To me, Webb seems like an interesting character with a lot of good points. But I very much want to keep a GOP Senate so we can get some SCOTUS Judges like Scalia and Thomas.
11.5.2006 6:12pm
Enoch:
Personally, I do think The Forward's report raised a factual issue upon which Allen had not been clear,

Yes, because the most important factual issue facing Virginia voters right now is, "who's the Jew?" - and even more importantly, "which candidate is a Secret Jew masquerading as a Presbyterian?" Now that the ever-vigilant watchdog media has cleared that up, everyone in Virginia knows exactly how to vote.
11.5.2006 6:29pm
Chumund:
Andrew,

Of course Allen apologized for the macaque incident--he got caught on videotape and it hurt him badly. But having seen the videotape, I have no doubt what he was doing, and I think the consequence for campaigning in that fashion has to be a rejection by the electorate. If you think your partisan interests are more important than such a principle, then I think that reflects poorly on your judgment.

Incidentally, I don't think the "antichrist of outsourcing" incident is the same. Here is the original reference in its original context:

"Harris Miller, aka the Antichrist if you're an unemployed IT worker, is gearing up for a Senate run as--a Democrat? 'I think businesspeople can be good Democrats,' Miller told me last week. 'I'm proud to be a businessman; my father was a small businessman.'

Miller stepped down as president of the Information Technology Association of America last week to focus on his campaign for one of Virginia's Senate seats. The ITAA is a high-tech industry lobby group backed by the likes of IBM, Intel, and Microsoft. Through the ITAA, these heavyweights have been pushing the federal government to ease restrictions on the hiring of immigrant tech labor and quash bills that would limit their ability to move operations to low-cost countries."

Reading this, I don't think the original author was referring to Miller being Jewish. And I don't see any reason to believe the Webb campaign intending anything different than the original author.

Now, inadvertently the phrase "anti-Christ of outsourcing" may have been offensive to some Jewish people in light of the fact that Miller is Jewish (although I'm not entirely sure that such offense would be warranted). But again, I have no reason to believe any such offense was intentional on Webb's part.

In contrast, as noted, to me it is very clear that Allen intended to do exactly what he did, namely use a racial slur to brand someone as a social outsider for the sake of ingratiating himself to his audience. So, even if you think the form of the incidents are the same (and I think that is a highly dubious contention), that difference in intent makes the two incidents quite different to me.

Oh, and "porn"? Please. Allen just embarassed himself with that nonsense, and you are doing the same to yourself.
11.5.2006 6:30pm
Chumund:
Enoch,

Of course it wasn't "the most important factual issue facing Virginia voters." But since when have campaigns only been about the most important issues?

And see Andrew's reference to "porn".
11.5.2006 6:37pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Generally speaking, it's great to have senators and representatives who have first succeeded in other careers. In fact, that's a legitimate reason for preferring one candidate over another. For example, Bob Corker in Tennessee had a successful first career in the construction business.

If the other career, however, is kind of sketchy, then probably it's not worth getting so ecstatic about. My parenthetical reference (above) to Webb's previous career as an author was merely meant to suggest that said career should not give said Webb a leg up on said Allen. I read somewhere that Mark Foley is desperately looking for his library card....
11.5.2006 7:04pm
Chumund:
Andrew,

There is nothing "sketchy" about Webb's novels. And calling them "porn" is just silly.

Anyway, this is all a red herring. No one here was discussing Webb's career, and it is a transparent attempt to change the subject from Allen's unsuitability for the office of Senator.

But I think you have made your position clear. Allen is a Republican, and so are you, and therefore you support Allen no matter what. Which is sad.
11.5.2006 7:27pm
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Chumund, I support lots of people who aren't Republicans. I live here in Connecticut, and I plan on voting against a Republican in the US Senate race.

All of this discussion about macacas and anti-christs and graphic novels and jewishness is all well and good. But, how about addressing some real issues?

George Allen says at the Project Vote Smart site that he supports granting the President line-item veto authority to help eliminate non-essential, wasteful government spending. However, I don't know James Webb's position on this issue, because Webb refused to fill out the questionnaire for Project Vote Smart. Does anyone know Webb's position on this vital issue of fiscal responsibility and bloated government?

On June 22, 2006, the House passed the line item bill (H.R. 4890). 93% of Republicans supported the bill, whereas 82% of Democrats opposed it, in the House. S. 2381 failed in the Senate. Is Webb going to make sure that it fails again?

Readers will not find anything about this issue at Webb's website either. I looked.
11.5.2006 7:45pm
Mac (mail):
Enoch,

Thank you. In a few words you put this entire issue in perspective.
11.5.2006 11:24pm
Chelsea:
I'm really not thrilled with either Webb or Allen, but Webb at least appears to be pro-choice, pro-civil unions, and (I get the impression -- though perhaps naively) slightly more willing to oppose Bush on civil liberties issues. But, you know enough about my politics to know that me voting for Allen wasn't really on the table.

Quick research suggests that Allen isn't really the kind of Republican to thrill libertarians (as suggested here: http://www.theagitator.com/archives/027004.php ... with the caveat that I don't actually know anything about this blogger, but his claims seem in line with a few minutes of web research). A lot of this, of course, depends on which issues you prioritize, what your take is on the relevant foreign policy questions, etc. And, in any case, I'll confess to being less informed than I ought to be this election; I've ended up paying more attention to the marriage amendment (having gotten involved a bit in campaigning against that).

Also, hi! *waves*
11.5.2006 11:33pm
Ship Erect (mail) (www):
Does anyone know Webb's position on this vital issue of fiscal responsibility and bloated government?

Who knew that giving Bush yet more authority over Congress was "vital" to fiscal responsibility? The past couple of years are evidence that the opposite is the case. That Bush has avoided his responsibility to veto spending bills he didn't like (jury's still out on that one, though) hardly demonstrates that he needs it or even wants it.
11.6.2006 12:36am
Andrew Hyman (mail) (www):
Sorry you didn't get your wish, Ship Erect. Anyway, it would at least be nice if Webb would be willing to support the line item veto if it only becomes effective in February of 2009.
11.6.2006 1:49am
subpatre (mail):
Sasha – better late than never, but this thread expanded fast. What’s a good, bad, or middling Republican? IMO George Allen’s a great politician, one of a very few.

If more Republicans followed his lead, they wouldn’t be the hypocritical small-government talk, big-government voters that they’ve turned into. It’s probably true Allen ‘voted with Bush xx% of the time’; but if you subtract the countless irrelevant Senate resolutions, there are sharp differences.

Allen departs from the company-line on line-item veto, balanced budget amendment, legislator ‘Paycheck Penalty’ for overdue appropriation bills, immigration (for secured borders and deportation of felons, against amnesty), Ketchikan “Bridge to Nowhere”, individual health saving accounts, no tax for IRA rollover to health care, pooled small business insurance, education savings accounts, education-related tax credit, etc.

Allen pushed hard to bring high-tech business —business that depends on knowledge, not low wages or industrial location— to the state. He fights the eternal battle to keep the internet free of tax and regulation, supports net neutrality but not the Snowe-Dorgan bill (yet). He understands the link of prosperity and equal opportunity to innovation, free enterprise, and education.

As Governor, Allen created the Standards of Learning (SOLs) to link state-certified diplomas with knowledge. The federal No Child Left Behind loosely copies this and is a poorer standard. The price of success: now Senator Allen seeks exemptions from NCLB for states with better standards.

Also in that term, Allen enacted much-needed parole-reform, eliminating parole for violent offenses; to him a matter of public trust, honesty, and victims’ rights.

Allen’s bent over backwards for military and veterans, especially Reserve and National Guard. He’s improved their benefits, health care, insurance, retirement, and education benefits. On the minus side, he not a military strategist and tends to follows others’ leads; he currently pays a lot of attention to Sen. Warner.

IMO Allen’s most important contribution is his strategic outline on energy. It’s parts aren’t all new, but it outlines what the US must do, in what order. We are skating on thin ice, and without adequate energy, we will sink.

Last week at dinner with him —one of those ‘bolt it down before a speech’ meals— Allen and I chatted about his daughter starting college; the traffic, etc. One of his comments was about the disproportionate number of CT and NJ students at JMU; that it was sad —a loss of talent— those states didn’t have more in-state capacity because a lot of students wouldn’t move back.

Allen learns. He’s not an intellectual or anti-intellectual, he’s smart; Allen understands people and the consequences of government action.
11.6.2006 9:39am
just me:
To those of you who urge divided government as the best result for libertarians or small-government GOPers:

I agree, so the question is then whether the better house to have/lose is the Senate/House. I urge you to scroll back up to my Sunday post, in which I argue that GOP Senate control is better to have good JUDGES. Let Denny Hastert pay the price of losing faith with 1994's promises.

Alos, I add this - TREATIES. A Dem Senate, joined by a Dem Prez in 2 years, and do all sorts of big-government mischief by signing onto international treaties that require statism at home.

So again, hold your nose and vote for whatever bad Senator or Senate candidate you face in your State, and say bye to your House Rep.
11.6.2006 10:59am
Jim Rittinger (mail):
The decision between Jim Webb and George Allen ought to be a no brainer for anyone who considers themselves a conservative. George Allen as a governor was a driving force behind lowering taxes and improving the business climate in Virginia--including his work to bring tech jobs to the Commonwealth. As a senator, George Allen has been a staunch proponent for tax cuts, fostering business growth--particularly in the technology field, and for aggressively fighting the war on terror.

In stark contrast, Jim Webb is for rolling back the Bush tax cuts, rolling back the crucial capital gains tax and frequently cites Marx and Engels on the campaign trail when arguing that there needs to be income redistribution. Aside from that, his plan for withdrawing from Iraq and reinvading as needed, fits in the category of stupid ideas right next to John Murtha's redeployment to Okinawa. Finally, if this campaign has demonstrated anything, it has shown that Jim Webb knows almost nothing about the state he purports to represent. HE knew nothing about the Craney Island Terminal project that will bring 10,000 jobs to Virginia and has offered nothing for rebuilding or improving the over stressed and badly crumbling infrastructure in Northern Virginia (Allen has a good conservative plan that avoids wasteful and bloated public spending by providing tax incentives and the like to get the private sector to help pay for infrastructure improvements).
11.6.2006 12:06pm
Closet Libertarian (www):
Allen gets an A+ from the NRA and Webb gets an A, although Webb seems to hide this (its nowhere on his page). http://www.nrapvf.org/elections/State.aspx?State=VA

Seems to me that control of the Senate (for Judicial nominations) is more important than the differences between Webb and Allen.
11.6.2006 1:24pm
Ship Erect (mail) (www):
Thank you for your concern, Andrew. :)

Webb must be very far ahead if he's being smeared as a pinko. So, Jim Rittinger, what is he quoting from Marx and Engels? Let's hear it.
11.6.2006 3:49pm
NickM (mail) (www):
Sasha, how about looking at Republican Liberty Caucus's Liberty Index? They rank him 13th best among active GOP Senators (lifetime ranking). The votes used for the rankings are available there.

Nick
11.6.2006 4:25pm
Jim Rittinger (mail):
Ship Erect:

My source is the October 23, 2006 Bob Moser article in The Nation and the 9/21/2006 AP story. Both are linked by an article that discusses the topic at www.allens-a-team.com/thomas-jefferson-vs-marx-engels/

Game. Set. Match.
11.6.2006 7:31pm
Ship Erect (mail) (www):
So what did he say, Jim, for you to state that Webb "frequently cites Marx and Engels on the campaign trail when arguing that there needs to be income redistribution"? Do you have a quote? It hardly seems that Webb is going to institute Communism as a Senator; are you actually making that claim, or just insinuating it?
11.6.2006 8:54pm