Building a Cheese Factory on the Moon:

Orin's post about NASA's plan to build a permanent base on the Moon reminds me of this quote by former Texas Senator Phil Gramm:

If the Senate voted this afternoon on building a cheese factory on the Moon, I would no doubt vote against it. But if the Senate decided, in its collective lack of wisdom, to build a cheese factory on the Moon, I would want engineers from Texas to design that cheese factory. I would want a construction company from Texas, since we have the best construction companies in the world, to build that cheese factory. If we were going to use milk from earthly cows, I would want milk from Texas cows to be used to make the cheese in the factory on the Moon, and I would want the celestial headquarters for it in Texas. But am I for a cheese factory on the Moon? No.

Perhaps NASA is about to make Gramm's hypothetical cheese factory on the Moon a reality. More likely, we will get lots of juicy contracts for Texas (or perhaps - thanks to Bob "King of Pork" Byrd's return to the Appropriations Committee Chairmanship - West Virginia), engineers, construction companies and cows, but no actual moonbase that can do anything useful.

Related Posts (on one page):

  1. Moo with me:
  2. Building a Cheese Factory on the Moon:
  3. NASA Shoots For the Moon:
PersonFromPorlock:
...but no actual moonbase that can do anything useful.

Sigh. You just don't understand government, do you? The immutable law is that having a program is the same thing as accomplishing something -- and provides spending authority for much longer.
12.5.2006 7:54am
DairyLover:
Don't hate the cheese - hate the game.
12.5.2006 8:31am
Hoosier:
Engineers from West Virginia?!

There's gotta be a joke in there somewhere.

"How many Mountaineers does it take to colonize the Moon?"

"Just two, but they have to be relatives."

(I know. Best I can do.)
12.5.2006 9:27am
Bruce Hayden (mail) (www):
PersonFromPorlock - well said.

Actually, there may be a reason to go to the moon and that is to settle space. I haven't been following this for a number of years, but several have suggested that it would be better to build a self-sustaining community on the moon, build infrastructure there, and then use mass drivers or the like to shoot the makings of a space community into space from there, taking advantage of the moon's much smaller gravity well. Plus, the moon has other advantages here. For example, power is potentially much more readily available - not only can you use nuclear power much more easily (no messy permits, etc.), but solar is more effective since the sun is always visible and there is no atmosphere to dilute its power.

Of course, trusting NASA to accomplish any of this is quite a stretch.
12.5.2006 9:28am
myalterego:
So does anyone know if there has been any credible debate about whether the moon is terra nullius, and therefore land that any one particular country could claim as part of its sovereign territory? I'm sure somebody thought about this in 1969 when we planted a U.S. flag there for the first time. Just thinking out loud here...
12.5.2006 10:07am
Jeek:
The Outer Space Treaty bans any nation from claiming celestial bodies as sovereign territory.

The Treaty also has some provisions on exploitation of resources:


Neither the surface nor the subsurface of the Moon, nor any part thereof or natural resources in place, shall become property of any State, international intergovernmental or non-governmental organization, national organization or non-governmental entity or of any natural person. The placement of personnel, space vehicles, equipment, facilities, stations and installations on or below the surface of the Moon, including structures connected with its surface or subsurface, shall not create a right of ownership over the surface or the subsurface of the Moon or any areas thereof.
12.5.2006 10:25am
ed (mail) (www):
Hmmmm.

Considering what a useless, worthless boondoggle the $100+ billion dollar ISS space station has been, I think anybody even considering a NASA plan for a moonbase to be completely insane.

I say we fire NASA and leave space exploration to private corporations. If nothing else they'll waste less taxpayer money that way.
12.5.2006 10:26am
Hoosier:
But if WE don't do it, the Soviets will!
12.5.2006 10:41am
cw (mail):
There is no way we are ready to have a manned base on the moon. Think of the logistics. Think of the payload that would we would have to deliver to the moon. That payload would have to come from earth (the whole point of a space station on orbit is to serve as a manufacturing center/base for further trips. We can't even put up a decent space station). We would need to design a new space craft to carry that payload. Think of the cost. Think of the cost of each mission. Think about leaving people on the moon and what would happen when something goes wrong. Think how often things go wrong in space flight.

This was a Bush mandate designed to do something good for him politically, remember. Once he's gone, hopefull the next president will be wiser.
12.5.2006 10:42am
Hoosier:
If cw is correct, think of what we could have: A Lunar Cheese Shop with NO CHEESE!

"You ARE a cheese shop, are you not?"

"We most certainly are, sir!"
12.5.2006 10:49am
M (mail):
What sort of cheese are we planning to make? Isn't that the really important quesiton here?
12.5.2006 10:51am
Jeek:
I say we fire NASA and leave space exploration to private corporations. If nothing else they'll waste less taxpayer money that way.

Corporations will not explore space. Why would they? There is no money in that. Corporations will not even attempt to harvest resources in space - too risky, and it takes far too long to obtain any return on investment. In short, if a government doesn't do it, it won't get done.
12.5.2006 10:56am
Jeek:
We would need to design a new space craft to carry that payload.

That is exactly what NASA intends to do.
12.5.2006 10:58am
Tracy Johnson (www):
One word will prevent Texas Engineers from building a cheese factory on the moon. One word only, and it will be an outcry from every media outlet and there would be instant controvery, bringing a Congressional investigation. It will be dead on arrival even before the first dollar is voted on in committee.

You said you wanted Texas Engineers?

Here's the one word that will make it stillborn:

Haliburton.
12.5.2006 10:59am
Wallace (mail):
There's no need to build a factory as the moon is made of cheese anyway.

That should knock several billion off the budget right there.
12.5.2006 11:11am
Stuart M. (mail):
>>>>>>>>There's no need to build a factory as the moon is made of cheese anyway.

But someone has to excavate it, process it and package it, right?
12.5.2006 11:37am
pilight (mail) (www):
Settle space? The current global warming trend was started by small amounts of our atmosphere being carried off during space missions. To take enough to supply off-world settlements would doom everybody.

Air doesn't grow back. Once you take it, it's gone forever.
12.5.2006 11:46am
DebateCoach:
A cheese factory on the moon reminds me of the joke about the restaurant on Mars. Great food, but no atmosphere.
12.5.2006 11:58am
Ron Mexico:
Seriously now, I think that West Virginians are the appropriate force behind this moon-cheese expedition. Their mining skills should translate extremely well from mining coal to mining cheese.
12.5.2006 12:52pm
Malvolio:
Corporations will not explore space.
You mean other than SpaceX, Scaled Composites, and Virgin Galactic?
In short, if a government doesn't do it, it won't get done.
In general, if no one will spend his own money to do something, it shouldn't be done. Fortunately, space travel apparently is worth doing.
12.5.2006 1:41pm
Random Commenter:

Corporations will not explore space. Why would they? There is no money in that. Corporations will not even attempt to harvest resources in space - too risky, and it takes far too long to obtain any return on investment. In short, if a government doesn't do it, it won't get done.


Somehow this seems meant to be an argument in favor of the NASA plan. Aren't there already enough taxpayer-funded programs that the phrases "no money in it", "too risky", and "takes too long to produce a return on investment" accurately apply to?
12.5.2006 1:54pm
Jeek:
Malvolio,

Corporations that depend critically on the ability to provide services to the government - as SpaceX does - are hardly "exploring space". They are, in effect, NASA / DOD contractors. You might as well say that Lockheed Corporation is "exploring space" as a private business because it won the CEV contract (now known as Orion). Would SpaceX exist as a profit-seeking enterprise without any prospect of selling its services to the government? I doubt it. Would Lockheed bother with space if they, and not the government, took most of the risk? Would Lockheed build a moonbase if the government didn't pay them to do so? Of course not.

As for Virgin Galactic, tourism (least of all brief visits to LEO for multi-millionaires) is not exploration.

We should also note that no company (and certainly not any of these three) would be able to make any money in "space exploration" if the government hadn't taken a lot of the risks, and created a lot of the necessary knowledge and infrastructure, up front.

In general, if no one will spend his own money to do something, it shouldn't be done. Fortunately, space travel apparently is worth doing.

There is a clear commercial market for putting objects and people in LEO, and things in GEO. That is just about it for viable commercial space (and it's not even that big of a market as markts go). Putting things in LEO and GEO is not quite the same thing as "exploring space" - it was at one time, but not any more - especially if exploration is used in the sense of "discovery for its own sake". I remain skeptical that a corporation will explore the solar system or even go to the moon on its own, for the reasons I already stated (too risky, takes too long to make a profit).

If it is worth building a moonbase - and this is something that should be done - then Northrop Grumman should build its own competing moonbase, with no government funding, right?

Somehow this seems meant to be an argument in favor of the NASA plan.

No, it is a statement of fact. There are a lot of things that need to be done in space, but it is not at all clear that the moonbase plan is one of them.
12.5.2006 3:01pm
Colin (mail):
The current global warming trend was started by small amounts of our atmosphere being carried off during space missions.

An intriguing theory, but decreasing pressure reduces temperature. It's rising pressure that heats things up. Clearly, our problem is that our space program is bringing too much atmosphere back.
12.5.2006 3:25pm
Gary Leff (mail) (www):
NASA base on the moon? Sounds to me like Venus envy.
12.5.2006 3:34pm
Paddy O. (mail):
Texas?! West Virginia?!

Neither work. Texas is now politically unacceptable. West Virginia doesn't have the reputation or the infrastructure. Don't get me started on their respective cheese capabilities.

California is clearly the winner with this one. Boxer and Feinstein have paid their dues. We already have JPL, Vandenburg AFB, and one of the top tech regions in the world. Governor Arnold walks between conservative and liberal as well as anyone these days.

Plus, California is passing Wisconsin as the #1 cheese making state.

Happy moon cows make great cheese. Happy moon cows come from California.

Hurray for the moon program!
12.5.2006 3:59pm
Eli Rabett (www):
Building a base on the moon defunds NASA earth science. It's the traditional way administrations control NASA.
12.5.2006 4:19pm
Eli Rabett (www):
Oh year, I'll match your Pelosi, Feinstein and Boxer with Stenny Hoyer and Barbara Mikulski. Goddard was the big winner in November.
12.5.2006 4:23pm
DebateCoach (mail):
Of course pilight is making a small joke - the Earth is not a closed system. On the global scale, is entropy increasing or decreasing - I don't know. We have constant exposure to the Sun (increasing our energy), a mass continually revolving upon its axis (are we slowing down or speeding up), space rocks hittin' us all the time, we are soaring around the Sun and flying through the universe, and we have our own little Moon constantly pulling at the oceans causing the tides to rise and fall. I don't know how you would measure all the potential energy stored in all the nuclear war-heads. The Earth is not in a big Thermos container. In any event, air really doesn't "grow."

The real question for space travel, when comparing the amount of energy (and other resources) it takes to send a mass into escape velocity to the return on that investment, is it cost-beneficial to do that in outer-space, or would we be better off focusing our efforts elsewhere and obtaining a different return on the same investment?

For small scale explorations, the CBA might be positive, because the benefits are unobtainable on Earth (e.g. Tang, velcro). But for cheese, I don't think I need a calculator to figure out where the best cheese comes from - it comes from a can with a propellant.
12.5.2006 4:26pm
Paddy O. (mail):
"Goddard was the big winner"

That's a good argument there. But Maryland cheese is so 18th century. Speaker of the House trumps majority leader (especially given the majority leader wasn't speaker of the house's choice). And what politician wouldn't love to have their picture taken with Arnold in return for extra votes?

Wine, women, celebrity, weather. What more could burgeoning moon cheese factory scientists ask for?

Plus, we have large open tracts of desert land to build mock moon cheese factories, land which more accurately matches the moon climate -- hot hot when the sun is out, and brrrrr cold when it's not.
12.5.2006 4:34pm
Waldensian (mail):
Man, check out how they're going to get the gear there: the Ares V rocket. Now that's a manly space vehicle. And reason 1,329 that al Queda will never win.
12.5.2006 5:31pm
Crunchy Frog:
DebateCoach - apropos of absolutely nothing, but we are slowing down, both in the spinning on our axis (analysis of ancient rocks shows that the earth day used to be four hours long - don't ask me how they figured it out) and the revolving around the sun due to tidal friction.
12.5.2006 5:59pm
Dick King:
The ancient day length can be determined by looking at fossils under a microscope. Most people know that trees have annual growth rings, but many species of plant have daily growth rings, and sometimes the daily growth rings are bigger or more profound in the summer than in the winter. It's simply a matter of counting the number of days [whose length is known to be changing, at least in the late 20th -- early 21st century] in a year [whose length could not change very much without the Earth's orbit changing enough to either freeze or fry our ancestors].

-dk
12.5.2006 6:53pm
Dick King:
The day is lengthening because angular momentum is being transferred from the Earth's rotation to the Moon's orbit by tidal braking. This is not a theory but an actual measurement made possible by corner reflectors left on the Moon by the Apollo astronauts.

Some of that angular momentum is transferred to the Earth's orbit too [the Sun also raises tides] but if you crank the numbers you'll see that that's insignificant.

The tides that the Earth raises on the Sun are insignificant and have little friction because the Sun is gaseous and Earth's gravity doesn't pack much punch at that distance.

-dk
12.5.2006 7:03pm
professays (mail):
I don't share the sceptical and negative attitude to the to the idea of building a permanent base on the Moon. It is sure to be more useful than space stations in orbit.
12.6.2006 6:28am
pilight (mail) (www):
It was indeed a small joke.

However, it points to a real problem. We do have a limited atmosphere. Unless/until we find a source of additional air or a way to generate more our ability to colonize off-world will be neccesarily limited.
12.6.2006 8:29am
Common Sense (mail):
"Brain drain" at Boeing Co. may have contributed to the aerospace giant's flawed analysis that space shuttle Columbia would land safely despite being damaged soon after launch, the Los Angeles Times reported on Thursday.

...Boeing's space shuttle team lost many top engineers when it moved to Texas from California in 2001, contributing to poor analysis during the doomed Columbia flight, according to the Times report.

Forgive the Freerepublic sourcing, but they have an interesting followup. As far as the manned space program and Texas engineers go, I'd suggest "never again" as a working hypothesis
12.6.2006 1:05pm