[Joanne Jacobs (guest-blogging), December 6, 2006 at 4:33pm] Trackbacks
Parenting by police

In South Carolina, a mother had her 12-year old son arrested for unwrapping a gift early. Mom is 27. The boy's great-grandmother is 63. The mother said she's unable to control her child, who's been in trouble before, and wants to the juvenile justice system to take over.

When I was writing on welfare reform for the San Jose Mercury News, I interviewed a mother who'd gotten her son arrested for writing gang graffiti on her notebook. He was 12 too and out of control. She didn't know what to do to get his attention. The arrest got the boy a parole officer, who signed him up for Little League. He traded gang life for baseball and football. Last I heard he was close to a high school diploma and thinking about enlisting in the Marines. The mother, who'd gone on welfare at 17 when her first child was born, has been working happily for many years now.

eric (mail):
I guess it is safe to assume no male parent in the home.
12.6.2006 5:44pm
jab (mail):
What was the criminal charge for writing on his mother's notebook? Vandalism? And a judge convicted him of this??
12.6.2006 5:57pm
John Burgess (mail) (www):
Nearly 50 years ago, one of my aunts worked as a nurse in a state home for delinquent children in MA. 'Incorrigible child' was the complaint that got about a half of of the kids in there in the first place.

Nothing much new here, IMO....
12.6.2006 6:00pm
FantasiaWHT:
Joanne, you seem to bring up interesting situations or fact patterns, reminisce anecdotally, and then fail to make any cogent point. I'm sure most of us commenting here can think of a similar situation involving someone we know.
12.6.2006 6:02pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
Not surprisingly, the word "father" appears nowhere in that article.
12.6.2006 6:02pm
FantasiaWHT:
Here, I'll do some work for you.

Reading the article, what I found telling was that he had been arrested before for disorderly conduct after PUNCHING a police officer.

Somehow I doubt having him arrested and immediately released for petty larceny is going to make any dramatic impact in this kid's life.

Here's a thought, stop buying the little bastard any toys at all, much less a portable video game system.
12.6.2006 6:05pm
llamasex (mail) (www):
Not surprisingly, the word "sbortion" or "morning after pill" appears nowhere in that article.

If you do the math the girl was 15 at this kids birth
12.6.2006 6:29pm
Anderson (mail) (www):
Not surprisingly, the word "sbortion" ... appears nowhere in that article.

You got that right. Not surprising at all.
12.6.2006 6:34pm
Tek Jansen:
Fantasia makes a good point: I have no idea what your point is, Joanne. I'll add that I doubt that one arrest, or a couple of quotes about math education, or a couple of quotes to support "putting your money where your goals are", supports whatever point you are trying to make.
12.6.2006 6:46pm
Elliot Reed:
Are you trying to make some kind of point? Would you mind telling us what it is?
12.6.2006 6:46pm
Shelby (mail):
Isn't the point that getting the police involved sounds stupid, but can actually work well? Often people with unruly kids lack the skills to parent well, but someone like an involved parole officer can help make up for that.

Not that I'd recommend people call the cops for things like this. Here in the Portland area we've had too many recent instances of police being called into a family dispute and killing someone.
12.6.2006 6:58pm
curious:
Nothing like becoming a grandmother at 36 and a great grandmother at 51.
12.6.2006 7:14pm
Benjamin Davis (mail):
Takes courage to call the police on your own kid. A very hard thing to do. As is parenting. They knew they needed help with the boy and called on who they thought could help. It is not the unwrapping but it is the not obeying them that seems to be the essence of the problem with the boy. Is it too much to show empathy for a parent or is it that she was 15 and got pregnant that makes her beneath empathy? Girls get knocked up. Girls can get abortions but can also choose to go through with the pregnancy - that is what choice is all about. Girls get in tough situations and guys disappear.

Best,
Ben
12.6.2006 7:29pm
Beerslurpy (mail) (www):
Women can no longer swing a belt buckle against a child's ass? What is the world coming to?
12.6.2006 8:09pm
Sarah (mail) (www):
The police report (at TSG) indicates that the kid has already failed the "Rebound" program (a 9-week residential "get your life in order" camp for middle schoolers run by the police) twice. And the mother said she was asking for the child to be put in the care of the Dept. of Juvenile Justice. Sounds like she's forcing the hand of a system that didn't treat him harshly enough in the past.
12.6.2006 8:25pm
brett (mail):
Umm.. Do you people really not know what the point is? Wow.
12.6.2006 8:57pm
martyB:
Beautiful! Excellent! Bravo!

(this in reference to paragraph two, about the parole officer, little league, mom's work history, etc.)
12.6.2006 9:02pm
glangston (mail):
The kid was lucky to meet up with this guy. That's what it's about....luck....
12.6.2006 9:23pm
Ken Arromdee:
Do you people really not know what the point is? Wow.

I can think of several possible points; the trouble is that all the ones I can think of are fallacious and it really isn't fair to criticize someone for propounding a fallacy when I might have just misread him.

On the other hand, it isn't fair for a commentator to omit his point so that just in case anyone pokes holes in it, he can maintain plausible deniability that that actually was his point.
12.6.2006 9:32pm
Elliot Reed:
On the other hand, it isn't fair for a commentator to omit his point so that just in case anyone pokes holes in it, he can maintain plausible deniability that that actually was his point.
Which I suspect is exactly what's going on here. It would hardly be a new tactic for the blogosphere in general or this blog in particular. But Jacobs is new and since I don't know much about her I want to give her the benefit of the doubt.
12.6.2006 9:38pm
Dave Hardy (mail) (www):
The kid who was turned around by the parole officer reminds me of a tale told by a local prosecutor. They were picking a jury, and there was one fellow who, you could predict, would become the foreman. White hair, sat erect, commanding presence. When they asked if any juror had been arrested, he raised his hand. Asked what it was for, he replied "bank robbery."

After the trial, they sought him out for the full story. Yep, when young he had robbed some banks. Police arrested him and, as was sometimes done back then, told him he could go to prison or enlist in the military. He chose the latter and they marched him down to the recruiter's office. The drill officers beat some discipline into him, and he wound up liking the military life.

He wound retiring with a captain's commission and pension, married, set up his own insurance agency, and was doing quite well. But, he said, if it hadn't been for the military, he'd have died on the streets or in prison many years ago.
12.6.2006 10:00pm
arbitraryaardvark (mail) (www):
He traded gang life for .... enlisting in the Marines.
12.6.2006 10:45pm
whit:
eric, it's a pretty safe assumption

i've probably been to several dozen "parenting by police" calls e.g. kid refuses to go to school, kid refuses to listen to parent, etc.

i have NEVER (not once in over a decade, that i can remember) ever had a father, or a father-mother combo (so to speak) call me the police for that sort of thing.

it has always been the single mom, in my experience. n=(several dozen)
12.6.2006 11:01pm
eric (mail):
Whit,

Just another example, however small, of how the breakdown of the family places greater burden on the taxpayers.

Unforetunately, today's society is more likely to pat a woman on the back for bad life choices in the pursuit of self-esteem.

I am sure you guys just love calls such as this one.
12.7.2006 1:15am
Joanne Jacobs (mail) (www):
I was an op-ed columnist and editorial writer for 19 years. One of the things I enjoy about blogging is that I can give readers information (Mom is 25, child is 12, Grandma is 63) and let them figure out what to make of it without lead readers through every step and pound home a point.

I think the story is very sad. Sometimes a kid can be saved, if someone with authority intervenes. Usually not.
12.7.2006 3:03am
Public_Defender (mail):
How many kids are "saved" by the juvenile justice system? Talking to attorneys who do juvenile work, the system is about punishment, not rehabilitation. Long-term juvenile detention is, at best, warehousing. It usually just teaches kids to be worse. Few kids will kid a P/O who will give the kind of attention received by the kid Ms. Jacobs blogged about.

Juvenile sex offender cases are perhaps the most sad. I've seen a few files, and the kid tends to be doing to younger kids would someone else had done to him or her. And now, this victim-turned-offender is publicly labeled a sex offender, has to register, and will find it very hard to make a life.

I'm glad a referal to the juvenile justice system worked for one kid Ms. Jacobs knows. But parents who intentionally send their kids into the system are most likely making things worse. Sending your kid to the juvenile authorities is perilously close to child abuse.
12.7.2006 6:58am
Blindgambit:
I resided in small town South Carolina for a couple of years, and while I was there a grandmother requested to have her 12 year old granddaughter arrested because she refused to finish her chores, specifically vacuuming, and instead had cursed at her grandmother and gone to her room. The police declined to make an arrest, but did politely ask the girl to finish her chores.
12.7.2006 9:35am
kelvin mccabe (mail):
Please, for the love of God, do not call the police on your children if you live in Chicago unless the police are absolutely necessary. Chicago P.D. showing up to some 16 yr old girls house, to check on the status of jr.'s homework?? (imagines ensuing profanity laced encounter and possible bloodshed)THE HORROR!!

Seriously, probation offiers and child parole officers may work in some places, but in any system that is bursting at capacity -say any large metropolitan area with significant youth/adoloescent crime- you might as well hand the kid a future prison address and an orange jumpsuit- cuz 80% of the time - that will be the " feel-good" happy result. Assuming of course the kid lives that long.
12.7.2006 11:28am
Aaron:
If an 18 y.o. woman has a child, and then her child has a child at 18, then being a 36 y.o. grandmother doesn't sound so remarkable.

Extend it further; each generation has a child at 20; suddenly a 60 year old great-grandmother doesn't seem so outrageous either.

Call me when the great-grandmother is 42-- then I'll be outraged.
12.7.2006 11:43am
Abdul (mail):

What was the criminal charge for writing on his mother's notebook? Vandalism? And a judge convicted him of this??


In many states, a juvenile can receive a "status offense." It's not a code violation (like robbery or drug possession); it allows the court to officially list a minor's status as a juvenile delinquent, thereby putting the minor into some institution. The institution might be residential, or the minor might live at home and report to counselling--all depends on the judge and the systems in place. My guess is that the cases Jacobs refers to are all status offenses. In that sense, the minor isn't arrested for unwrapping a present or using a salad fork on an entree, but is arrested for the status of being a juvenile delinquent.
12.7.2006 11:50am
Whadonna More:

One of the things I enjoy about blogging is that I can give readers information (Mom is 25, child is 12, Grandma is 63) and let them figure out what to make of it without lead readers through every step and pound home a point.

One of the things I enjoy about reading blogs instead of the newspaper is that editors rarely print the letter where someone points out that your saved-by-parole Hallmark story is mere anecdote (and that you'd have included stats if you actually had them to back up a theory that all junior needs is male figure in his life), or counter-anecdote from the guy that turned out OK, better even, once Mom threw out the abusive drunk who sired him.
12.7.2006 1:33pm
Ken Arromdee:
One of the things I enjoy about reading blogs instead of the newspaper is that editors rarely print the letter where someone points out that your saved-by-parole Hallmark story is mere anecdote (and that you'd have included stats if you actually had them to back up a theory that all junior needs is male figure in his life), or counter-anecdote from the guy that turned out OK, better even, once Mom threw out the abusive drunk who sired him.

The trick here is that the story isn't really backing up a theory that the boy needs a male figure. In fact, it isn't backing up any sort of theory, because it isn't stating a theory.

And as I've pointed out, failing to state one's point is often a sleazy tactic used to avoid criticism--whenever someone refutes your point, just claim that they got the point wrong.
12.7.2006 2:29pm
Elliot Reed:
Ken - that's exactly the problem. Jacobs's argument seems to be that boys need male role models, or tough love, or something like that. Or maybe it's that single moms were all teenage sluts who should be blamed for their problems, or something like that? Or that the sins of the mother should be visited on the child unto the tenth generation? Or all of those. But you can't actually criticize any of those arguments because she and her defenders can always claim that wasn't her point.
12.7.2006 2:53pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
Elliot -- maybe what's "exactly the problem" is that you and Ken are looking for an argument to "refute" and "criticize"? Seems like you're looking for a fight, and are annoyed that you can't get one.

And it's not even that hard to fairly express a contrary view. Try this: "Joanne, I'm not sure what your point is. If you're trying to argue that children need male role models, I disagree because of X, Y, and Z. Your story is merely anecdotal, and I doubt it's representative."
12.7.2006 3:16pm
eric (mail):
And that you'd have included stats if you actually had them to back up a theory that all junior needs is male figure in his life)

It could be that there is simply so much evidence that she assumed you would not place the burden of proving generally known propositions on the person making them.

Or it would take too much space to post.

http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/fathers2.html Just one piece of evidence.
12.7.2006 4:04pm
curious:
If an 18 y.o. woman has a child, and then her child has a child at 18, then being a 36 y.o. grandmother doesn't sound so remarkable.
Extend it further; each generation has a child at 20; suddenly a 60 year old great-grandmother doesn't seem so outrageous either.
Call me when the great-grandmother is 42-- then I'll be outraged.


If that was directed at me, I wasn't passing judgment. I'm just saying that you have to admit that already being a great-grandmother for nine years when you turn 60 is pretty remarkable.
12.7.2006 4:32pm
Aaron:
Curious:

3 generations of 17 y.o. mothers yields a 60 y.o great grandma with a 9 y.o. grat grandchild. Not great, but common in most cultures through well, today.
12.7.2006 4:59pm
Ken Arromdee:
And it's not even that hard to fairly express a contrary view. Try this: "Joanne, I'm not sure what your point is. If you're trying to argue that children need male role models, I disagree because of X, Y, and Z. Your story is merely anecdotal, and I doubt it's representative."

"If you're trying to argue that..." isn't a single possibility. There are lots of possibilities, some of which are just slightly altered or generalized versions of other ones, and enumerating them would be ridiculous.

If I just say what you suggest, the reply is likely to be "well, I never said that the story proves children need male role models."
12.7.2006 5:19pm
Elliot Reed:
Elliot -- maybe what's "exactly the problem" is that you and Ken are looking for an argument to "refute" and "criticize"? Seems like you're looking for a fight, and are annoyed that you can't get one.
This is blog that focuses primarily on legal and policy issues. On occasion the bloggers post something they think is funny or weird, but most of the time they're trying to make a point. This doesn't seem to fall into the "just weird or funny" category, so I conclude that Jacobs is trying to make some kind of point, but won't tell us what it is. The most plausible explanation is that this is a case of a blogger playing hide-the-ball so they can't be called on a fallacious argument.
12.7.2006 8:19pm
Public_Defender (mail):
It is intellectually weak to put out two anecdotes and shut up. Does she believe the anecdotes are representative or anomalies? Why? Maybe she plans to come back and explain.

As to the role of parents, I agree that they are crucial to keeping kids out of trouble. Any experienced public defender will tell you that we rarely have clients who came from two-parent families. Do I have stats to back that up? No. But it's a sad reality of public defender practice.

Finally, I want to soften my child abuse statement above. I'm sure there are some places where the juvenile system functions well. And even in the worst systems, you will find the occasional oasis of professionalism.

But parents who sends their kids into the juvenile justice system need to understand that the system can be cruel and destructive. Absent a threat to someone's physical safety, parents need to think long and hard before forcing their kid to run the juvenile "justice" gauntlet.
12.8.2006 5:00am