A commenter writes:
One easy way to identify a Christianist or a bigot is their use of the word homosexual, when the term we use for ourselves is gay or lesbian.
I've heard similar objections elsewhere (or else I wouldn't have responded to an isolated comment), but I find them utterly unpersuasive.
First, the descriptive assertion that there's a high correlation between use of the term "homosexual" and the speaker's hostility to homosexuals strikes me as entirely unfounded. Search the archives of the New York Times — or for that matter the Advocate — the works of Andrew Sullivan, and a wide variety of other sources, and you'll see.
Second, I'm not even persuaded by the assertion that homosexuals themselves generally prefer "gay" or "lesbian," even in contexts where "homosexual" is more precise (such as when one is talking about either gays or lesbians and wants to use one word that doesn't imply — as "gay" in some measure does — a limitation to one sex). The speaker may be accurately reporting the views of those particular gays and lesbians whom he knows, and who are vocal on the subject; I'm skeptical of his knowledge of the views of homosexuals generally.
Just to give some examples from similar contexts (as I've noted before), a 1995 Labor Department survey reported that 50% of American Indians preferred "American Indian" and only 37% preferred "Native American"; 44% of blacks preferred "Black" and only 40% preferred "African-American" or "Afro-American"; 58% preferred "Hispanic" and only 12% preferred "Latino" (no separate data was given for "Latino/a"). Matters may have shifted some since 1995, but not vastly; and I'm pretty sure that in 1995, the preferred terms among activists were "Native American," "African-American," and (here I'm less sure) "Latino," yet the actual majority (or, for blacks, plurality) preferences were different. (Source: U.S. News & World Report, Nov. 20, 1995.) Even if I thought that I had some moral or good manners responsibility to use the label preferred by a strong majority of the group, I see no basis for accepting such a responsibility to use the label preferred by a vocal minority, or even half of the group.
Third, as I have described here, the argument that "the group prefers to be called X, so you have a good-manners obligation to call it that" is not enough of an argument in my book — even if there is adequate evidence that the group prefers that.
Naturally, there are clearly pejorative ways to use certain words (including "gay," "lesbian," or anything else). But I'm not going to let people buffalo me, or stand by quietly while people try to buffalo others, into abandoning the clear, useful, and generally nonpejoratively used term "homosexual."
UPDATE: On reflection, I thought I'd quote much of the older post I linked to above (which was about some people's preference for "handicapped" over "disabled," but which should largely apply here as well):
2. Moreover, shifting from an old label to a new label is not cost-free. It's not cost-free for the speaker. Sometimes the new term has shades of meaning that aren't quite apt for certain uses, and thus requires extra work to think through. ("African-American," for instance, isn't a racial group, but a racial subset of Americans; it thus isn't always an apt substitute.) Sometimes the new term carries an ideological literal meaning that the spaker may disliks evoking, even when it's fairly clear that he's using the term just as a label and not for its literal meaning. This is clearest for "differently abled" or "Latter-Day Saint" (I have nothing against Mormons, but I prefer not to call them Saints, even with the implied quotes). But it may also apply in other situations, such as with "disabled"; some people may genuinely prefer to stress the handicap (i.e., burden) under which a person labors rather than his disability.
Sometimes the word acquires a connotation of adherence to the ideology that spawned it; the word "womyn" may be the most famous example, though I suspect that these days it's so often used facetiously that people may want to avoid it for that reason as well. Speakers may then resist using the term because they don't want to be seen as proclaiming allegiance to an ideology that they do not adhere to. Sometimes the new term is just clunkier and sounds more stilted to many people; some, I suspect, take this view as to African-American, and I suspect that headline writers are especially unhappy with it.
3. But the more important cost to the speaker is that telling people that they should stop saying certain words, not because those words are likely to be reasonably interpreted as expressing hostility, but simply because some other people dislike those words, is itself something of an affront to dignity and a possible source of offense. Even the good-mannered among us cherish our freedom to speak as we please, and while we try not to be rude (in the sense of slighting others or saying bad things about them), we understandably bristle at being told to stop using this word and start using that one on pain of Being a Bad Person.
A sound explanation that shows why people are reasonably offended by a term (for instance, an explanation to someone coming from Russia, where "black" is insulting much like "yellow" would be, and "negro" is considered the proper scientific term, that in America "negro" is so rarely used that it sounds like a deliberate insult at worst or one of those what-did-he-mean-by-that? archaicisms at best) might soften the sting. But simply saying "most of us like this term, so stop using this other one that you've used all your life" is a legitimate source of offense for those whose speech people are trying to control. It's even more such a source if those people were once taught by then-representatives of the same group that "handicapped" was the better term, and some years later are now told that it's become bad. And it's especially so when the number of forbidden words grows and grows ("rule of thumb," "Chinese wall," "seminal," etc.).
4. On top of that, there's also another substantial cost to the "If you aren't a bigot, stop saying 'handicapped' and say 'disabled' instead" approach: It may actually increase how often the group that one is trying to protect from offense ends up feeling offended.
If handicapped people learn that some people say "disabled" and others say "handicapped," and that neither is evidence of hostility, a few might still bristle at one (or the other); but many will be satisfied by the explanation that decent people use both. But say that everyone is told that "disabled" is the one right term, and some decent people don't go along, whether because of force of habit, strong preference for "handicapped," or just bristling at being told what to say. Then handicapped people who hear the term may well become more offended, because they've been taught that the word is offensive.
People who might even prefer to shrug the term off might feel almost obligated to take it as an insult. If someone calls me "Gene" rather than "Eugene," I'm a little annoyed (that's just not the name I prefer in English), but I assume that it's just because they've fallen into that habit with other Eugenes they know, who do go by Gene in a way that I don't. I assume the speaker's intentions were good, and I think I'm happier for it.
But if someone started a campaign of insisting that calling me Gene is actually rude, perhaps even insulting (because the diminutive implies a diminution of my status), I'd both hear "Gene" a bit less often, and be much more annoyed when I do hear it, precisely because I'll worry that it's a deliberate violation of the New Good Manners Rule and thus a deliberate slight. Those who make the handicapped/disabled issue into a matter of identity politics rather than just a matter of apricot/apricot (or even Gene/Eugene) may thus increase the amount of hurt feelings on both sides.
5. So I think the approach that's more tolerant of speakers, ultimately more likely to avoid offense to the subjects of the speech, and less likely to be subject to the whims of a small minority of activists is generally to tolerate both the old terms and the new terms, and not consider either to be a breach of good manners.
There are exceptions. One, as I noted above, is when one term is so often used pejoratively that reasonable listeners might assume that the current user is using it pejoratively. Another is when the term is so archaic that it will make people wonder whether the speakers must have some ulterior motive in using it (the obvious motive, which is that it's a commonly used term that springs to people's minds naturally, being absent). There may well be others; rules of manners are often not competely simple and crisp. But as to handicapped/disabled, or American Indian/Native American, or black/African American, the let-at-least-a-couple-flowers-bloom approach strikes me as the clearly preferable one.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Lesbos:
- Another Word I Will Gladly Continue To Use:
...and to some people who like to sleep with other people of the same sex, "gay" is offensive (or at least annoying), because it's too cheerful or nonserious or something. It seems to be a regional thing, as far as I can tell.
Quite a few PWLTSWOPOTSS don't like either category, and want NO reference to their sexuality. Not closeted, just really don't want the attention or pigeonholing.
It's like they were actual people, with variations in personal preferences, and not stereotypes or some monolithic social group with no free will.
Weird, huh?
Plus, it seems to me that homosexual is more inclusive. It's one of the options: homosexual, heterosexual, bi-sexual, etc. But while there's "gay", "lesbian", "transgendered", and all of the other choices, there isn't another term for people who prefer the opposite sex. (Polite, at least. ;)) So that implies that opposite-sex preference is the standard and everything else is a deviation from it, which hardly seems to be the message sought by the homosexual community.
One . . . is when one term is so often used pejoratively that reasonable listeners might assume that the current user is using it pejoratively. Another is when the term is so archaic that it will make people wonder whether the speakers must have some ulterior motive in using it (the obvious motive, which is that it's a commonly used term that springs to people's minds naturally, being absent).
Isn't that what this commentor is arguing? Now, the commentor may be wrong about whether the term "homosexual" is really a flag for a Christianist or bigot, for the reasons you articulate, but that involves examining the evidence, rather than rejecting the argument as per se unpersuasive.
And about that evidence. While I'm not sure what Andrew Sullivan references or New York Times citations you found, I think the commentor is accurately describing not only the feelings of the overwhelming majority of gays and lesbians, but those of us who are active in the movement, who hear "homosexual" as an anachronism of a time when "homosexuality" was defined as a psychological disease.
I think the costs of switching here are relatively low -- please keep an open mind about whether you need to make a stand here.
I think EV made the point quite clearly that the commentor seems to represent only the latter group.
In your vision, do Judeo-Christian views about the morality of homosexual acts include authorization to use murder, violence and terror to tell gays &lesbians what to do? If yes, then perhaps the quotee would indeed consider people of your POV Christianists, Judeo-Christianists or the like. So few terms are well defined, what's the source of your definition of Islamist? Just curious; would like to know the firm ground.
On EV's supposed topic, the word homosexual sounds hyperscientific and I would think the closer parallel might be "negroid" which I doubt would be real popular. So I could see a bit of resistance.
So, since both terms can be considered perjorative, shall we ban both?
In words of one syllable, Bittern, no.
Then, Yankev, I believe the answer to your question is also "no."
From The Advocate, July 13, 2007:From The Advocate, Jan. 29, 2007:
Though, I think a more apt point would be those who refuse to use the word gay but insist on homosexual or otherwise put "gay" in quotation marks, often indicates bigotry.
I want to respect those whose worldview differs from mine, who hold legitimate convinctions on sexual moral issues. However, that still should not give carte blanch to gay bash with rhetoric.
I think antigay bigotry, like racism or antisemitism does exist. And not all bigots are like the KKK or Fred Phelps, who simply admit that they hate. Further I think constructive criticism of social groups can be non-bigoted, and often is valuable and needed. However, that criticism can cross the line into bigotry. And it can be hard to tell, indeed debatable, as to when the line is crossed, especially when those accused of bigotry are highly intelligent or intellectual types, who may have legitimate points intermixed with bigotry.
A textbook example of this difficulty is Bill Buckley's book In Search of AntiSemitism where he sought to answer whether his friends Pat Buchanan and Joe Sobran were indeed anti-Semites (or were they intellectuals, with a different, but still socially respectable, point of view?). Buckley's book, as far as I remember, gave a seemingly convoluted answer to the question.
But if I may point out indicators of what I think signifies antigay bigotry, they are as follows:
1) If someone insists on calling homosexuals "sodomites";
2) the repeated use of Paul Cameron's phony reduced lifespan figures (between 39-43) for homosexuals;
3) the facile equation of male homosexuality with anal sex;
4) the attempt to "deconstruct" the homosexual person, claiming that no homosexual persons exists only chosen homosexual acts (and yes, I know gay/queer theorist like Foucault have pioneered this argument);
5) the use of a variety of buzzwords or buzzphrases about homosexuals "recruiting" children into the "lifestyle" or otherwise preying on children.
Also, it's interesting to think about the different associations with calling someone "Jewish" vs. "A Jew"
All the ninth- and eleventh-generation Scottish-Americans I know think all the tenth-generation Scottish-Americans I know are a bunch of floogelforfing crybabies.
When my daughter was in middle school, I was horrified to hear her use the term "gay" as an insult: "That's so gay." I explained to her that one can disapprove of homosexuality without making an adjective describing it into an insult. Homosexuals had achieved their goal--replacing a neutral word with a positive word--but they hadn't changed fundamental attitudes. This was in a community that prided itself on being pro-gay, with schools breaking state law to promote homosexuality without warning parents in advance.
Maybe homosexuals should stop emulating Big Brother, and ask themselves why changing the word doesn't fix the attitudes? Or would that provoke too much introspection?
In this article at americablog.com
Pretty much explains to you that your point is absolutely wrong.
The only reason to do this might be in a discussion of the classical period, where there was a pretty clear distinction between sodomites and catamites. (Homosexual activists used to use classical period homosexuality as a justification for modern homoseuxuality--ignoring that during much of the classical period, it was a lot closer to NAMBLA than an equal relationship.)
You claim it's phony. Evidence? Or did the vast number of homosexual men who died of AIDS in their 30s and 40s not affect average lifespans?
Oh? You mean most homosexual men don't have anal sex? You sure you want to defend that position?
So Foucault was an anti-homosexual bigot?
Except that you know that there are homosexual men (and some lesbian women) who prey on children. It isn't a majority; it is probably not even a large minority. But there's a reason that homoseuxals use the term "chickenhawk," and it isn't because they are describing rare members of their community, or the imaginings of anti-homosexual bigots.
There is another crystal clear indicator that someone is a bigot: the "I'm not...but" lead-in to a sentence. This is quite common. As in:
"I'm not a racist but..."
[Translation: "I am a racist because I think that...."]
"I don't want to be sexist but...."
[Translation: "I have sexist views, including...."]
"I'm not a homophobe but..."
[Translation: "I dislike homosexuals so I think that...."]
An equally clear tip-off is the multi-purpose corollary:
"I think they [insert group] should have the same rights as everyone else but..."
A fine point, I know, but occasionally relevant: Such as when the speaker does not care to imply socially constructed identities, when speaking about people who lived before the gay and lesbian identity movements, or when speaking about people in the context of a culture that has different types and concepts for sexuality.
This is fun! "I think police offficers should have the same rights as everyone else but they shouldn't be subject to arrest for carrying a gun." Does that make gun control advocates into bigots?
Where did you get that definition of Islamist?
My understanding is that the popular definition of Islamist (as opposed to Muslim) is one who wants the government to impose Islamic religious law on the general population. Some people have started to use the word Christianist to mean one whose advocacy for particular governmental policies is motivated solely by his or her religious beliefs.
At least that's how the words commonly are used on the blogosphere. Islamist and Christianist are mostly used for negative criticism.
Nick
2. If we can't use homosexual, then I guess we can't use heterosexual either? What about asexual? Do we need to re-write our science books? What do we call plants with "reproduction that occurs without the union of male and female gametes"?
If people want to run around making ever more fanciful terms to call themselves, such as African American, they shouldn’t expect the rest of us to keep up.
obituary data from the Washington Blade (which does not publish a regular obituary section equivalent to those found in general distribution papers. This is not the sort of representative sample on which one can draw conclusions for the general population.
The simple lack of representativeness is alone a problem (like an internet poll), but the methodology had several skewing factors. For example, it covers only "newsworthy" deaths, which may be influenced by youth. It wouldn't include closeted gays, who may well be less likely to contract AIDS. And if older gays are more likely to be closeted than younger ones, that would create an enormous bias in the average age of death research.
When speakers are constantly on guard to avoid using a term that might be construed as impolite or hostile to a particular group, they are inevitably less comfortable around members of that group. The doctor had to struggle to find an appropriate term for "Jewish", for example, was probably less comfortable with his Jewish patients not because he was prejudiced but because he was always on guard to avoid uttering an offensive term. Similarly, I would expect that folks that work with openly gay colleagues are less likely to bond if they are trying to remember to avoid the word "homosexual". Particularly for those individuals that know that their social skills are below average, given the tremendous cost of being viewed as a bigot, the easiest option is to avoid unnecessary interactions with any coworker that isn't just like them. Over time, that sort of social discomfort is going to lead to cliques that end up disfavoring the minority group members when it comes time to hand out praise and promotions.
That doesn't mean "I am a racist". It means "I know some people will call me a racist". They may do so truthfully or falsely. And if it's falsely, saying something you know will be falsely called racist doesn't mean you are one.
Come on, you posted the full context of the quote and you still think the outrage is over the word "homosexual"?
What's kind of sick about this is that an accurate gender-neutral term is going to get trampled because of the stigma bigots attach to it. I suppose Hindus need to stop using the swastika, children's underwear or swimwear ads need to be banned because pedophiles and ephebophiles pleasure themselves while looking them over, and holy Hell what are pansexuals (like myself) allowed to call themselves these days?
I'll stop using the accurate word "homosexual" when I stop hearing "heteronormative" and "het(ero)" used as insults.
Well, looks like EV and liberty beat me to it. That'll teach me to post from work.
Isn't "prejudice, dislike or even hate" pretty much the settled definition of "phobia" in the word "xenophobia"?
In the political sense that it is now commonly used, it only means disapproval. The vast majority of people accused of "homophobia" aren't afraid of homosexuals; they just don't approve of either homosexual behavior or of the totalitarian tendencies that homosexual activists display.
These are the relevant portions of the various posts:
RandyR: "And we have often seen from Christianists, men who rail on about gays have often proven to be gay themselves."
My Response: "[R}efering to Christians as Christianists shows a profound lack of respect for people of faith--but I suspect you already knew that and were trying to be provocative."
RandyR: "I do have a respect for people of faith, including Christians. I have no respect for an entirely different breed called Christianists. . . .
A person who spouts bigots comments may call himself whatever he likes, but I will call him a racist. (And I don't do so lightly, or at least I try not to!) A person who hate gays may call himself whatever he likes, but he's still a bigot. And a person who calls himself a Christian but wants to regulate everyone else's life to conform to his religious views is a Christianist."
The last quoted language is found three paragraphs before the languge EV quotes.
For those interested in the "Christianist" context of the quote, I hope this is helpful.
Generally, sure.
But that is not the case with the term xenophobia, at least. Which has (AFAICT) always meant fear and/or contempt of the foreign or different. This meaning has been general long before "homophobia" became a common term.
If the sort of weird insulting stuff like calling ideas "heteronormative" were coming from the pre-Stonewall generation, who truly suffered from governmental and societal mistreatment, it would be understandable. But why is the generation that has grown up in a society that is generally at least as supportive of homosexuality as of heterosexuality ranting about these things?
1) Which, if either, of these usages should be avoided?
2) If one should be avoided and the other should not, is that because, as an empirical matter, one is more likely to be perceived as bigoted than the other?
3) If the answer to question (2) is yes, should one reconsider one's answer to question (1) upon receiving new information about how the usage is likely to be perceived in a particular context?
I would say that xenophobia is generally used to describe prejudice that arises from a fear of things (people) unknown. Or at least that is the heavy connotation.
Use of the term homophobia to describe prejudice against gays thus seems to imply that such prejudices arise from unfamiliarity or fear. This is likely the case in many situations, but patently not the case in others.
On the other hand, the form of the word racism would seem to indicate hatred arising from an ideology which uses race as a fundemental criteria for explaining the world, and yet the word has long since ceased to be constrained to that definition.
To summarize the argument, it apparently doesn't matter to you if members of a group feel your language is insulting, unless they somehow can prove that some supermajority of the group shares the same view. And even if the group does show to your satisfaction that almost all of the group agrees that your language is insulting (or demeaning, or otherwise impolite), that fact is insufficient by itself to make you change your language usage even though you are fully aware it is insulting or impolite.
If this is truly your position, then you logically must agree that it is acceptable in general discourse to use any offensive racial, ethnic, sexual, or religious language you want, so long as your intent was not to offend. Never mind that the listener perceives your language to have negative or pejorative connotations, or that you could express your point equally well without use of the offending language. Because your intent trumps all, the listener must tolerate your offensive language.
I doubt this is your true position on the issue, and I think that the problem in your argument is giving too little credence to the views of the group in question. If a significant portion (not even a majority) of a group finds a particular word or phrase to be offensive, one should no longer use that word or phrase in polite discourse. To do otherwise marks one as impolite or insensitive at best, and mean-spirited or bigoted at worst.
He's in hot water with the gay community for several reasons. The robotic bathroom and his use of the word "homosexual" are only part of the problem. Also, I should stress that Naugle intentionally uses the word "homosexual" in a pejorative way. As you noted in your original post, "[T]here are clearly pejorative ways to use certain words (including 'gay,' 'lesbian,' or anything else)."
If, as an earlier commenter suggested, most individuals who are sexually attracted to members of the same sex mostly wanted to be treated as individuals rather than categorized primarily by their sexual orientation (which I think they do), then perhaps the activist groups which purport to represent them should stop being so strident in demanding special laws for them precisely BECAUSE of their sexual orientation.
Finally, ANY term can be said in a derogatory manner. As others have pointed out, "gay" can and often is pronounced in a sneering, contemptuous manner. "Homosexual" can be said offensively even when the accented syllable is "sex" rather than "ho" (think of the reverend in The Simpsons going on about "homoSEXuals").
As a general rule, I'm all for calling groups what they prefer to be called. I've previously argued on this blog that "pro life" and "pro choice" are the appropriate labels to use for their respective adherents, because they both suggest the positive viewpoint of that general collection of policy positions. But this can be taken to extreme, particularly where, as the post notes, there's an extensive amount of evidence that there is not unity among the group as to which is the "preferred" term. It's foolish to waste political capital demonizing people who may well be on your side politically for using the "improper" term. If I'm a legislator stuck in the middle of, say, a gay marriage issue, and I'm wavering and might go either way, getting dressed down for saying something "offensive" when I had no intent at all to offend would tick me off pretty bad, and probably make me less likely to side with that advocacy group's desires.
Plus, this sort of obsessive focus on language trivializes political debate and helps turn elections into relentless "gotcha" sessions which focus not on substantive policies but on catching candidates in "mistakes" which can easily be reduced to sound bites.
Well, let's hear your reasons and give specific examples where you think someone said something defensible but was shouted down by being called a bigot.
"Some people reject the term homosexual as an identity-label because they find it too clinical-sounding. They believe it is too focused on physical acts rather than romance or attraction, or too reminiscent of the era when homosexuality was considered a mental illness. Conversely, some people find the term gay to be offensive or reject it as an identity-label because they perceive the cultural connotations to be undesirable or because of the negative connotations of the slang usage of the word.
According to the Safe Schools Coalition of Washington's Glossary for School Employees:
“ Homosexual: Avoid this term; it is clinical, distancing and archaic. Sometimes appropriate in referring to behavior (although same-sex is the preferred adj.). When referring to people, as opposed to behavior, homosexual is considered derogatory and the terms gay and lesbian are preferred, at least in the Northwest [of the United States]. ”
—Safe School Coalition, Glossary for School Employees
I think the Safe School Coalition hits the mark here. The phrase "incidence of homosexuality" is less offensive than, say, "according to Professor William Eskeridge, a homosexual, same-sex marriage should be . . ." So I ask again: are the costs really that high to switching to "gay and lesbian" for general usage?
By fighting on the merits of the term you're missing the larger point.
Naturally, this doesn't speak to any other possible causes of lower life expectancy; but it does suggest that it is not sound to argue:
No. John Corvino has a great article on why it's inaccurate to define gay men = anal sex. The simple reason is some/many, even if a statistical minority, don't have anal sex. As Corvino put it:
Some will get all upset at this distinction, I suspect, on some sort of high-horsed principle. But language is about effective communication, in this case, persuasion. And the strategic tactic was to use the word gay.
I'm sure that there are homosexual men who hook with one partner, and stay with that person for years or decades. But from what I have seen living in the Bay Area, completely anonymous sex--sometimes with persons that the recipient of anal sex never even sees face to face--are pretty typical male homosexuality.
Clayton E. Cramer: (more or less) I'll agree with Clayton that "irrational" is key to the definition, in all usage. I don't have a phobia about hitting the ground at a couple hundred miles per second, nor about a dynamite-strapped <ethnic> standing next to me; merely an ordinary fear. Remove the speed or dynamite, and I'm not bothered. On the other hand, I believe Philistine's position is closer overall (and the position less prejudicial). While clinical psychiatric terminology usually restricts "phobia" terminology to only only fear-based aversions, more casual usage in wider society includes irrational reactions of hatred as well.
While I have no Psych or Medical qualifications (I'm just a well-read computer geek), I'd suspect that both such fear and hate reactions are subspecies of a broader category, since adrenalin may cause either "flight or fight" reactions; I suspect the clinical meaning is limited due to the relative frequency of cases sufficiently disabling as to require treatment. This shouldn't be taken to mean that I believe every whatever-phobe qualifies as having a mental disorder; some may be the result of an unconsidered educationally ingrained response, such as the early 17th century aversion to tomatoes in belief they were poisonous.
I would agree in any case that relying on obits from a gay newspaper is unlikely to produce particularly trustworthy data.
There's a difficulty in classifying people into different sexual orientations. I see at least three possible ways to do so:
1) based on behavior,
2) based on desire, or
3) based on self-identification.
Depending which method of classification you use, you could end up with very different groups of gays. The groups you might see switch between "gay" and "not gay" according to system are people who have sex with persons of the same sex; and people who acknowledge sexual desire for persons of the same sex, while consciously rejecting those desires, as manifested in behavior or self-identification.
I don't believe 'homosexual' and 'gay' describe the same group. Because of the clinical/psychological setting 'homosexual' arose from, I believe it tends to describe groups based on (1) or (2). These are the more objective categorizations, I think (e.g., (2) might be measured physiologically). 'Gay' tends to describe (3).
Personally, I take issue with 'homosexual' because it's tied to its clinical roots. When people use the term (outside of a clinical setting), I perceive the speaker as focusing my identity on my acts or my reactions to particular stimuli—while identity seems more correctly determined based on personal viewpoints and self-description. When I say, "I am gay," I assert more than sexual attraction or activity; calling me 'homosexual' removes the nuance and reduces me only to sexual attraction or activity, in a way I find demeaning.
As a practical matter, I think people know that the thought of two men engaging in anal sex causes visceral disgust for many; those who wish to use 'homosexual' pejoratively enjoy the 'homosex' emphasis, and gay rights activists probably prefer 'gay' to dissociate gay people from that visceral reaction.
1. Xenophobia is specifically meant to describe an irrational fear. People who use it in the "dislike, prejudice, hate" construct are in fact adding to the definition.
2. In any event, the xenophobia example still illustrates my point: first, "homophobia" is an absurd pseudo-word because the prefix either means "same" or, at best, "derogatory term for homosexuals"; second, the whole word means "fear of," but the "dislike, prejudice, hate" construct is being added much the same as in xenophobia, without foundation.
That's a very good point, but I think that it's just as true on the flipside. As an earlier commenter put it:
"If I'm a legislator stuck in the middle of, say, a gay marriage issue, and I'm wavering and might go either way, getting dressed down for saying something "offensive" when I had no intent at all to offend would tick me off pretty bad, and probably make me less likely to side with that advocacy group's desires."
To the extent that people who make arguments like this are interested in serious dialogue (rather than Clayton Craymeresque venting, which I think is more often the case), I think that they're ultimately self-defeating.
And to add the obligatory 'azza' statement, as a homosexual man, I see absolutely nothing at all offensive in the use of that term.
My own opinion as a gay man: I have never heard a gay man or woman refer to themselves or other gays or lesbians as "homosexual", except in a self deprecating or mocking fashion. When I do hear someone refer to gay men or women as a "homosexual" or refer to "homosexuals" as a group, I assume the person is bigoted against gay men and lesbians.
Also re:
I agree completely! That is the opinion of most gay men and lesbians (mine as well), if you don't agree that gay men and lesbians should be able to live their lives free from prejudice or discrimination, you are bigoted. However, I would not call it "small minded" just morally superior.
"Incredulous" is not a synonym for "incredible."
The antigay types I'm thinking of really don't follow that kind of nuanced reasoning (i.e., many gay men have anal sex, so we can reasonably make a connection between the two) but equate the two as synonymous while often ignoring oral sex or lesbianism.
If any sexual behavior ought to be equated with gay male sexuality it's oral sex because that, unlike anal sex, is nearly universally practiced by gay men. It's also the way lesbians have sex and between 85-90% of heterosexuals do too.
Yet, the antigay types I'm thinking of don't do this because it's not divisive enough and can't be used to score rhetorical points.
My general understanding of the terms has always been that 'homosexual' identified people who engaged in sexual activity with members of their own sex. 'Gay' was used to describe the society, culture, and brotherhood of homosexuals.
Homosexual is used in a medical/psychological sense. A man who is attracted to men, or a women who is attracted to women. Sometimes it includes bisexuals sometimes the word homosexual doesn't.
Gay on the other hand is related to a social construct. A person who accepts he is gay, and then uses that term to describe himself or something related to him. Sometimes the word gay is not used to describe homosexuals but things people associate with homosexuals (even if it isn't related), such as "That is so gay."
To put it simply, Ted Haggard may be a homosexual, but he would never call himself gay.
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And I agree with the original poster Eugene was commenting on. Often "Christianists" (a recent made up poltical word that is no longer a creation and has its own set meaning) use homosexual far more often than they would use the word gay. Additionally they say it with disdain in their voice. Identifying non-christianist organizations such as the NYT who sometimes use homosexual misses the point, sometimes the NYT uses homosexual, sometimes gay, it isn't the amount of useages but the ratio.
Of course this is a "general rule" and there are plenty of exceptions.
I have occasionally mentioned to gay friends that I think homosexuality is yucky -- but that I think broccoli is yucky as well. I hate broccoli, but that has no effect on our relationship. Likewise, there is no reason that I need to approve or condone their sexuality, because the relationship I share with that friend has nothing to do with sexuality.
Whether it's working in the same office or playing softball, his homosexuality and my heterosexuality never enter into it. And thus, my (lack of) appreciation of his sexuality doesn't affect how we interact, just as his sexuality itself doesn't harm me.
Perhaps I am a bigot, but I don't like homosexuality. That's my problem, not theirs. I will continue to treat gays civilly, and I hope that I will continue to have rewarding relationships with them. But I don't want to live in a society that expects me to like it.
Excellent argument Pat, and one I agree with. But please tell, what specific laws are gays asking for that striaght people don't already have?
the General: "The main problem is that too many HOMOSEXUALS/GAYS/LESBIANS, etc, think that if someone doesn't think that homosexuality/gayness/lesbianness is just super and should be promoted at all costs and says so, then that person is somehow a bigot and a hater that needs to be exposed as such."
You are almost correct, General. Gays think homosexuality is just super for gays. Whether it should be promoted at ALL costs, I don't know, but it certainly shouldn't be repressed. Gays, on the other hand, have no interest in promoting homosexuality among straights. Why? Because we know better than anyone that you simply can't change a person's orientation. So it's a complete waste of everyone's time to promote homosexuality to people such as yourself, for instance. And yes, you are correct, anyone who has problems with gays is a bigot, because there is no rational reason for it. Thanks for the clarification.
Hat tip to DaveN for accurately quoting my comment which promted this thread.
If you feel your're being buffaloed by groups of people deciding that they will take offense at the application of certain label words to them, because those words are historically freighted, I can only imagine how you feel if those folks believe the words in question are historically freighted and are simply historically WRONG. . .
The National Gay and Lesbian Journalists' Association (NGLJA) (properly pronounced 'negligey' with a bit of a campy accent) has a stylebook which states: "Use only if 'heterosexual' would be used in parallel constructions, such as in medical contexts."
I myself agree that mostly people who hate gays use the word homosexual almost exclusively. Rarely, if ever, do people who hate gays use the term gay or lesbian, and if you scan this thread, you will find that to be true. That still means that there are people who love gays who sometimes use the term, or gays themselves. To me, it's a pretty good indicator, though.
Paul Cameron was stripped of his credentials for his consistent lack of ethics in the field of psychology. Yet he continues to produce 'studies' which all just happen to show how awful and terrible gay people are. His most famous study was to show that the average lifespan of gay men is in the low 40s. His methology was to read the obits of gay men in the Washington Blade and average their ages.
You could do the exact same thing yourself to find the average lifespan, say, of a soldier in Iraq. Simply read all the death notices in the paper, calculate that most of them died while in the 20s, and conclude that the average lifespan of a soldier is 23.
That's how stupid his methodology is. He has been exposed often about this, and his paper was written sometime in the early 90s. So any one who would seriously quote the guy on anything hasn't done anything except accept the word of biased idiots. If you do just a modicum of research, you will find the truth.
But as we know, when it comes to gays, Christianists have no interest in the truth.
Interesting. In some religious traditions (including the one that gave the world the story of Sodom), the people of Sodom were condemned for their xenophobia, greed, dishonesty and hard heartedness; their threats to rape the strangers were the result of a need to violently humiliate them more than out of lust. Notwithstanding Jewish tradition’s condemnation of male homosexual intercourse, “the sin of Sodom” means something very different to a traditional Jew than to a Christian.
Fantasia
How do you use “Jew” as a verb? Perhaps the charming phrase “Jew him down” is no longer in current use. I confess that I haven’t heard it since 1985, but then again some people are smart enough not to use it within earshot of someone they know is Jewish. Others are dumb enough not to realize it is offensive.
AF, “Jew” is a noun. When used as an adjective, it is offensive to most Jews that I know. Either Barney Frankel is a “homosexual Jewish Congressman” or a “homosexual Jew who serves as Congressman” – and who, in either case, was given a pass when he disgraced his district and his office by allowing his room-mate to run a prostitution ring out of their apartment.
bjr, would that be the same Washington where a city employee was disciplined for using “niggardly”, and was forced to apologize to a city councilor for the councilor's own ignorance (as in sorry I was so insensitive as to use a term that had nothing to do with race, but that confused and offended you)?
Thank you, Hiding my name, for a truly honest post. In fact, one of the most honest here. I have no problem with people who have some unarticulated problem with homosexuality. My problem is with people who don't feel that thats enough, and so they make up lies about us to justify their feelings. That I can't countenence.
Your feelings are your own, and, like everyone else, you are entitled to them, and they certainly are not wrong in any fashion. You don't have to like gay sex, and we gays don't have to like straight sex. In fact, I find the idea of a woman's genitals make me shudder! It's VERY icky to me. And I also find the thought of most of my friends, gay or straight, having sex, to be very icky. Ever think about your parents having sex? Pretty darn icky. Unless you look like Brad Pitt, most people would also probably also prefer not to visualize how you have sex with another person.
So, knowing that gays might even find your sexual acitivities quite disgusting, how should gays treat you? Civilly, I would hope. Should gay people, though, try to strip you or your rights to get married, or hold a job, or lease an apartment just because they don't like they way you have sex? I hope you get my point.
And yet, we find many people -- and people right here at the VK -- who feel exactly as you do regarding gays, and feel that they have to do everything they can to show what terrible people we are as a group, and that we must be banished from the land. And what exactly would any of that accomplish? Nothing at all.
So thanks for sharing your real feelings on the matter. If your gay friends are at all decent, I'm sure they would welcome a discussion like this. Try it, and get back to us.
I don't like to think about fat people having sex. I grosses me out. Same with ugly and hairy people. I suppose I would be weirded out by midgets having sex too, but I've never seen it. Finally, man on man action is just not pleasing to my eye.
I guess that makes me a horrible, horrible bigot for not embracing and celebrating sexual diversity.
So... what happens if 80% of the population belonged to a cult which condemned fatness as evil gluttons, doomed to the bowels of hell? After all, the morbidly obese could always change their behavior or undergo severe surgery to 'correct' their obesity. We could even subsidize this surgery.
Ignoring the whole tautology argument about SSM, how would people feel about this cult society banning marriage between people over 500 pounds?
In your work on guns, I've generally found you to be a cautious and thoughtful commentator. Yet in your comments on homosexuality, errors and reliance on unreliable data seem to creep in fairly often. It just seems to me that extending your usual care to this subject would be helpful.
On a related note, could you please pass along some more details on the studies that well establish the proposition that "Alcohol and drug abuse are ... much more common among homosexuals (both male and female), as is smoking"? Thanks.
First off, I'm glad that you and broccoli have a good relationship despite the fact that you find it yucky. Broccoli has never had a bad word to say about you.
However, your post doesn't answer the question it poses: "Why must we constantly test our attitudes to ensure that we hold no negative feelings toward some group?" Don't you think it would be worth examining your feelings if your feelings of "yucky" extendes from the "-ity" to the group--if you found homosexuals yucky.
I find football yucky, but football players yummy.
I find fishing yucky, though I like both fish and fishermen a great deal.
AS long as you are happy enjoying their company, do not wince should they mention the name or fact of their same-sex partner (and act as if they should know better than to mention this around you), treat said partners with respect and civility should you meet them, and treat said partnerships with the same respect you would any other relationship of similar duration, how you feel about the sexual behaviors you presume they engage in is not really important (and it's a good bet that some of them share similar feelings of revulsion toward the sexual practices they presume you engage in)
El Blogero: Give it up. You may not think that "homophobia" SHOULD mean "irrational fear and revulsion toward homosexuals", and etymologically you might have a thin leg to stand on (but "homosexuality"--and "heterosexuality" are pretty much bastard creations themselves, combining one part Latin with one part Greek), but whether your approach to langauge is descriptive or prescriptive, the fact is that the word has been used to mean that since at least 1969. At this point, trying to make arguments that it shouldn't mean that just looks silly.
PatHMV:
Can you identify even a handful of this "great many" you refer to?
In my experience, I hear the leaders of gay and lesbian organizations willing to, say, work on other issues with the legislator who opposes extending hate-crimes protection to "sexual orientation" because she opposes the idea of hate-crime legislation. At the same time, they may point out the apparent anti-gay bias inherent in someone who supports hate-crimes penalties on the basis of religion but not on the basis of sexual orientation.
But the "homophobe" label tends to be reserved for those who go out of their way to be outspoken against any and every pro-gay political move--folks like Jesse Helms, Robert Dornan, Anita Bryant, Fred Phelps, Porno Pete LaBarbera, Grant Storms, Rick Santorum and the aforementioned Paul Cameron.
Are you saying that the label "homophobic" is always and everywhere inaccurate--that it cannot apply even to the likes of Fred Phelps and his family?
"When I do hear someone refer to gay men or women as a "homosexual" or refer to "homosexuals" as a group, I assume the person is bigoted against gay men and lesbians. "
I think that's unfortunate, really, in part because you're going to end up assuming that there are a whole lot more bigots than there really are, but also because if you do, in fact, make such assumptions regardless of context, aren't you just as likely to be the one committing the injustice?
This is the first time I've come across what is being described as widespread objection to using the word homosexual, even though I'm familiar with a lot of what I might easily have referred to as either gay or homosexual issues being discussed by both gays and straights across the blogosphere. The idea that I should know better, or that I would avoid such use if I weren't a bigot, rests on the apparent expectation that, barring the advice of friends, I ought to have consulted activist GLBT sites or organazations on acceptable usage before joining any conversation or discussion of such topics. It further assumes that I should feel obliged both to police and to alter the expression of my opinions accordingly.
I hope you would agree that it's certainly not my fault if a lot of bigotted people use the term homosexual in offensive ways. I, personally, would have said "homosexual" was a formal, as opposed to clinical, term, where "gay" started out as a label which was not entirely inoffensive itself. Some people may still simply be unsure about using it, although it has sinced gained relatively neutral currency in ordinary conversation, as a replacement for the older term. I notice you distinguish gay men from gays generally, yourself. I'm still using gay incorrectly that way, however, according to activist resources, where it is also gender specific. If I'm using it in place of the collective homosexual, should I assume I'm offending lesbians everywhere? To be entirely correct, it would seem I'm stuck with either using a political acronym, GLBT, which is tough to pronounce, and meaningless to anyone who isn't politically au courant, or spelling out gay-lesbian-bisexual-transgendered every time -- which I don't see much of anybody doing very often.
That's a lot to expect from folks who might only be trying to say they support homosexual marriage, don't you think? Intent can often be difficult to ascertain, but the idea that the word, not the intent, makes the bigot is both perverse and unfair. I believe that most people who aren't bigots will make a reasonable effort to avoid giving gratuitous offense. It seems to me that the underlying issue here is not sensitivity, but politics. It's hard to get more offensive than calling someone a bigot solely on the basis of politically incorrect terminology. In any case, I intend to go on using the word homosexual where it strikes me as appropriate, as well as using gay collectively, as I ordinarily do when saying things like I'm pro-gay marriage. If anyone construes my use of the former as evidence of bigotry, I'm afraid that's really their problem, not mine.
So what do all the gay-bashers do with these facts? The say, see how destructive the 'homosexual lifestyle' is! They want to make it look like gay people choose to be gay, and then this leads to drug abuse and everything else, culminating in death from AIDS or suicide. See what a horrible disgusting lifestyle they are trying to save us from! (They often use the word 'deathstyle.' I kid you not).
But a person who is not out to portray gays as horrible people might ask the question, WHY are drug abuse, smoking and suicides rates so high for gays? The answer, as many studies have shown, is because of the way society treats gays. Many gays are thrown out of their home as teenagers, so living on the streets will lead to a shorter lifespan. Many gay people suffer discrimination, alienation from family and friends, loss of livelihood and so on. We have religion constantly telling us we are worthless and damned to hell. Schools turn a blind eye to the gay kid who gets beat up all the time.
If you have any doubt, I will happily introduce you to the social workers at SMYAL, the Sexual Minority Youth Action League. you will find stories of abuse and discrimation against gay teens that will break even the most homobphobic of hearts. THEN tell me that being gay is a choice!
Some will say, come on Randy, quit the pity party! But facts are facts. Blacks living in inner cities also experience high rates of suicide, drug abuse, smoking, and shorter lifespans, and studies have shown that the stress of discrimination and poverty all contribute to a great degree. So are we supposed to say that being black is a deathstyle too, and we must save black kids from that fate and turn them white? It's the same silly argument.
Every study on the subject has stated that if gay people were treated exactly the same as straight people, all these rates would decline.
Okay, enough of the bitterness. Too nice a day!
You are, of course, absolutely correct. And most people who say 'homosexual' are not bigots. It grates slightly on my nerves, but I always let it pass -- there are much bigger issue to worry about.
I remember family members as late at the 80s referring to blacks as 'colored people.' This grated on me, and I'm sure blacks wouldn't be too happy. But that was ther preferred term in THEIR day, so it's no big deal. We all try to get along, right?
However, you will find that the likes of Pat Robertson, James Dobson and co will always use the word homosexual. Any person under the age of at least 30 who uses it is almost always using it is in a perjorative way.
Test yourself on this: Read any article on the subject of sexual orientation. You will find that if they consistently use the word 'homosexual' they are against gay rights, and if they use the word gay mostly, they are pro-gay. Just do a search on the internal search engines of magazines, such as the New Republic, The National Review, The Weekly Standard, Washington Monthly, and all of those types. You will find a strong correlation between the words they use and the view on gays.
I need to explain a bit more, I feel. In my day to day life I rarely hear someone use the term "homosexual". Mostly people use "gay", or if being more formal "GLBT". The only time I hear or see people use "homosexual" is when people use the term to rail against equal marriage rights, the current hot topic of the day.
I don't particularly find the term offensive, more clinical than anything really. However I do find that the people who do use "homosexual" are being disparaging rather than empowering to me and those like me.
When I was younger (I am in my early 30's now), I never thought I would see a debate about equal marriage rights for same gender couples. I would have never thought that "my people" would have come so far. I am very confident that I will see it as a reality in my life time, which does bring a smile t