The Volokh Conspiracy

Another Word I Will Gladly Continue To Use:

A commenter writes:

One easy way to identify a Christianist or a bigot is their use of the word homosexual, when the term we use for ourselves is gay or lesbian.

I've heard similar objections elsewhere (or else I wouldn't have responded to an isolated comment), but I find them utterly unpersuasive.

First, the descriptive assertion that there's a high correlation between use of the term "homosexual" and the speaker's hostility to homosexuals strikes me as entirely unfounded. Search the archives of the New York Times — or for that matter the Advocate — the works of Andrew Sullivan, and a wide variety of other sources, and you'll see.

Second, I'm not even persuaded by the assertion that homosexuals themselves generally prefer "gay" or "lesbian," even in contexts where "homosexual" is more precise (such as when one is talking about either gays or lesbians and wants to use one word that doesn't imply — as "gay" in some measure does — a limitation to one sex). The speaker may be accurately reporting the views of those particular gays and lesbians whom he knows, and who are vocal on the subject; I'm skeptical of his knowledge of the views of homosexuals generally.

Just to give some examples from similar contexts (as I've noted before), a 1995 Labor Department survey reported that 50% of American Indians preferred "American Indian" and only 37% preferred "Native American"; 44% of blacks preferred "Black" and only 40% preferred "African-American" or "Afro-American"; 58% preferred "Hispanic" and only 12% preferred "Latino" (no separate data was given for "Latino/a"). Matters may have shifted some since 1995, but not vastly; and I'm pretty sure that in 1995, the preferred terms among activists were "Native American," "African-American," and (here I'm less sure) "Latino," yet the actual majority (or, for blacks, plurality) preferences were different. (Source: U.S. News & World Report, Nov. 20, 1995.) Even if I thought that I had some moral or good manners responsibility to use the label preferred by a strong majority of the group, I see no basis for accepting such a responsibility to use the label preferred by a vocal minority, or even half of the group.

Third, as I have described here, the argument that "the group prefers to be called X, so you have a good-manners obligation to call it that" is not enough of an argument in my book — even if there is adequate evidence that the group prefers that.

Naturally, there are clearly pejorative ways to use certain words (including "gay," "lesbian," or anything else). But I'm not going to let people buffalo me, or stand by quietly while people try to buffalo others, into abandoning the clear, useful, and generally nonpejoratively used term "homosexual."

UPDATE: On reflection, I thought I'd quote much of the older post I linked to above (which was about some people's preference for "handicapped" over "disabled," but which should largely apply here as well):

2. Moreover, shifting from an old label to a new label is not cost-free. It's not cost-free for the speaker. Sometimes the new term has shades of meaning that aren't quite apt for certain uses, and thus requires extra work to think through. ("African-American," for instance, isn't a racial group, but a racial subset of Americans; it thus isn't always an apt substitute.) Sometimes the new term carries an ideological literal meaning that the spaker may disliks evoking, even when it's fairly clear that he's using the term just as a label and not for its literal meaning. This is clearest for "differently abled" or "Latter-Day Saint" (I have nothing against Mormons, but I prefer not to call them Saints, even with the implied quotes). But it may also apply in other situations, such as with "disabled"; some people may genuinely prefer to stress the handicap (i.e., burden) under which a person labors rather than his disability.

Sometimes the word acquires a connotation of adherence to the ideology that spawned it; the word "womyn" may be the most famous example, though I suspect that these days it's so often used facetiously that people may want to avoid it for that reason as well. Speakers may then resist using the term because they don't want to be seen as proclaiming allegiance to an ideology that they do not adhere to. Sometimes the new term is just clunkier and sounds more stilted to many people; some, I suspect, take this view as to African-American, and I suspect that headline writers are especially unhappy with it.

3. But the more important cost to the speaker is that telling people that they should stop saying certain words, not because those words are likely to be reasonably interpreted as expressing hostility, but simply because some other people dislike those words, is itself something of an affront to dignity and a possible source of offense. Even the good-mannered among us cherish our freedom to speak as we please, and while we try not to be rude (in the sense of slighting others or saying bad things about them), we understandably bristle at being told to stop using this word and start using that one on pain of Being a Bad Person.

A sound explanation that shows why people are reasonably offended by a term (for instance, an explanation to someone coming from Russia, where "black" is insulting much like "yellow" would be, and "negro" is considered the proper scientific term, that in America "negro" is so rarely used that it sounds like a deliberate insult at worst or one of those what-did-he-mean-by-that? archaicisms at best) might soften the sting. But simply saying "most of us like this term, so stop using this other one that you've used all your life" is a legitimate source of offense for those whose speech people are trying to control. It's even more such a source if those people were once taught by then-representatives of the same group that "handicapped" was the better term, and some years later are now told that it's become bad. And it's especially so when the number of forbidden words grows and grows ("rule of thumb," "Chinese wall," "seminal," etc.).

4. On top of that, there's also another substantial cost to the "If you aren't a bigot, stop saying 'handicapped' and say 'disabled' instead" approach: It may actually increase how often the group that one is trying to protect from offense ends up feeling offended.

If handicapped people learn that some people say "disabled" and others say "handicapped," and that neither is evidence of hostility, a few might still bristle at one (or the other); but many will be satisfied by the explanation that decent people use both. But say that everyone is told that "disabled" is the one right term, and some decent people don't go along, whether because of force of habit, strong preference for "handicapped," or just bristling at being told what to say. Then handicapped people who hear the term may well become more offended, because they've been taught that the word is offensive.

People who might even prefer to shrug the term off might feel almost obligated to take it as an insult. If someone calls me "Gene" rather than "Eugene," I'm a little annoyed (that's just not the name I prefer in English), but I assume that it's just because they've fallen into that habit with other Eugenes they know, who do go by Gene in a way that I don't. I assume the speaker's intentions were good, and I think I'm happier for it.

But if someone started a campaign of insisting that calling me Gene is actually rude, perhaps even insulting (because the diminutive implies a diminution of my status), I'd both hear "Gene" a bit less often, and be much more annoyed when I do hear it, precisely because I'll worry that it's a deliberate violation of the New Good Manners Rule and thus a deliberate slight. Those who make the handicapped/disabled issue into a matter of identity politics rather than just a matter of apricot/apricot (or even Gene/Eugene) may thus increase the amount of hurt feelings on both sides.

5. So I think the approach that's more tolerant of speakers, ultimately more likely to avoid offense to the subjects of the speech, and less likely to be subject to the whims of a small minority of activists is generally to tolerate both the old terms and the new terms, and not consider either to be a breach of good manners.

There are exceptions. One, as I noted above, is when one term is so often used pejoratively that reasonable listeners might assume that the current user is using it pejoratively. Another is when the term is so archaic that it will make people wonder whether the speakers must have some ulterior motive in using it (the obvious motive, which is that it's a commonly used term that springs to people's minds naturally, being absent). There may well be others; rules of manners are often not competely simple and crisp. But as to handicapped/disabled, or American Indian/Native American, or black/African American, the let-at-least-a-couple-flowers-bloom approach strikes me as the clearly preferable one.

Related Posts (on one page):

  1. Lesbos:
  2. Another Word I Will Gladly Continue To Use:
Eric Muller (www):
Eugene, I find the language of your final sentence deeply insulting to the bison community.
7.25.2007 12:53pm
zooba:
After your numerous prescriptivist v. descriptivist posts, I find it incredulous that you can claim unilaterally prescriptively that homosexual is nonpejorative. And if you think that gays and lesbians secretly like to be called homosexuals, you obviously don't know that many gays and lesbians well.
7.25.2007 12:55pm
Yankev (mail):
What the heck is a "Christianist"? Is the writer implying a parallel between Islamists (who by deninition are willing to use murder, violence and terror to place the world under Islamic rule) and anyone (or at least any Christian) who entertains Judeo-Christian views about the morality of homosexual acts? If so, it seems the writer may have his own bigoted attitudes as well.
7.25.2007 12:57pm
cirby (mail):
zooba:

...and to some people who like to sleep with other people of the same sex, "gay" is offensive (or at least annoying), because it's too cheerful or nonserious or something. It seems to be a regional thing, as far as I can tell.

Quite a few PWLTSWOPOTSS don't like either category, and want NO reference to their sexuality. Not closeted, just really don't want the attention or pigeonholing.

It's like they were actual people, with variations in personal preferences, and not stereotypes or some monolithic social group with no free will.

Weird, huh?
7.25.2007 1:02pm
Kenvee:
It's odd, because I would never in a million years consider "homosexual" to be the perjorative term while "gay and lesbian" is the preferred one. I've far more often seen gay and lesbian used as insults and homosexual the simple descriptive. (Of course, anything can be used as an insult, but in general.)

Plus, it seems to me that homosexual is more inclusive. It's one of the options: homosexual, heterosexual, bi-sexual, etc. But while there's "gay", "lesbian", "transgendered", and all of the other choices, there isn't another term for people who prefer the opposite sex. (Polite, at least. ;)) So that implies that opposite-sex preference is the standard and everything else is a deviation from it, which hardly seems to be the message sought by the homosexual community.
7.25.2007 1:04pm
bjr26:
Eugene, you've previously argued that you'd consider abandoning a term for two reasons:

One . . . is when one term is so often used pejoratively that reasonable listeners might assume that the current user is using it pejoratively. Another is when the term is so archaic that it will make people wonder whether the speakers must have some ulterior motive in using it (the obvious motive, which is that it's a commonly used term that springs to people's minds naturally, being absent).

Isn't that what this commentor is arguing? Now, the commentor may be wrong about whether the term "homosexual" is really a flag for a Christianist or bigot, for the reasons you articulate, but that involves examining the evidence, rather than rejecting the argument as per se unpersuasive.

And about that evidence. While I'm not sure what Andrew Sullivan references or New York Times citations you found, I think the commentor is accurately describing not only the feelings of the overwhelming majority of gays and lesbians, but those of us who are active in the movement, who hear "homosexual" as an anachronism of a time when "homosexuality" was defined as a psychological disease.

I think the costs of switching here are relatively low -- please keep an open mind about whether you need to make a stand here.
7.25.2007 1:04pm
frankcross (mail):
Descriptively, words are used to communicate. At some point, the word communicates something pejorative. I trust you don't use the "N" word, EV. The issue is whether homosexual is in fact now a pejorative. Seems to me that depends on context, but in some contexts I would say it is. Although, oddly, the pronunciation of the word seems linked to whether it is pejorative. So long as you put the emphasis on the -sex- syllable and not the -mo- syllable, you're probably ok. But I'd generally steer clear of the word in public speaking, because of the prospect of misunderstanding.
7.25.2007 1:05pm
Spartacus (www):
I think the commentor is accurately describing not only the feelings of the overwhelming majority of gays and lesbians, but those of us who are active in the movement

I think EV made the point quite clearly that the commentor seems to represent only the latter group.
7.25.2007 1:07pm
WHOI Jacket:
Where does this leave Queer Theory?
7.25.2007 1:17pm
bittern (mail):
Yankev, you could read the original post to maybe find your answer, but EV did not link to it and I forget which thread it was on. So.

In your vision, do Judeo-Christian views about the morality of homosexual acts include authorization to use murder, violence and terror to tell gays &lesbians what to do? If yes, then perhaps the quotee would indeed consider people of your POV Christianists, Judeo-Christianists or the like. So few terms are well defined, what's the source of your definition of Islamist? Just curious; would like to know the firm ground.

On EV's supposed topic, the word homosexual sounds hyperscientific and I would think the closer parallel might be "negroid" which I doubt would be real popular. So I could see a bit of resistance.
7.25.2007 1:21pm
Yankev (mail):
Fracnkcross makes the excellent point that whether a word is perjorative often depends on intent and pronunciation. When I was in law school, a doctor at the U MN health service asked whether I was a "Hebrew" (I assume he needed to rule out certain genetic based diseases). I was amused by his attempt to avoid the term "Jew" -- apparently he was raised to consider the term rude and perjorative. And certainly it is when used as a verb or an adjective, or with a particular inflection. But most Jews I know consider the term Hebrew to be perjorative except when referring to language or alphabet.

So, since both terms can be considered perjorative, shall we ban both?
7.25.2007 1:22pm
Yankev (mail):

In your vision, do Judeo-Christian views about the morality of homosexual acts include authorization to use murder, violence and terror to tell gays &lesbians what to do?

In words of one syllable, Bittern, no.
7.25.2007 1:24pm
bittern (mail):

In words of one syllable, Bittern, no.


Then, Yankev, I believe the answer to your question is also "no."
7.25.2007 1:27pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
For those curious about my claims about Andrew Sullivan and others, here are a few excerpts. First, from an Andrew Sullivan article in The New Republic, Dec. 25, 2006:
What are Republicans going to do about homosexuals? The fact that this question has been asked repeatedly does not mean that anyone has yet given it a serious answer. There are, broadly speaking, two rival conservative factions on the subject: religious fundamentalists, who want to outlaw or deter homosexual love and sex on biblical or natural law grounds; and old-school conservatives, who want to treat the entire issue as a private matter--supporting public policy hostile to gay people and gay relationships while privately treating gay individuals with tact and respect....

All of these facts have been brought to public attention by Cheney herself. She has emphatically not chosen a path of complete privacy but has thrown herself into the political arena. No one can seriously claim that anyone is invading Cheney's privacy by debating her life and politics within the national debate about homosexuals' place in society. Here is a walking, talking, politicking piece of human reality....

One day, this will be the real conservative position on homosexuals as well as transgendered people: pro-family, pro-integration, pro-equality, and humane....


From The Advocate, July 13, 2007:
Holsinger wrote a paper in 1991 for a United Methodist Church committee that gay groups and others interpret as saying that homosexuals face a greater risk of disease and that homosexuality runs counter to anatomical truths.
From The Advocate, Jan. 29, 2007:
Best homosexuals on TV -- a list of personal favorites: ...

It's OK if you don't know the last two names. I assume the actors aren't gay. Who knows, really, but that's not the point. The point is that they play mutually disagreeable red-haired boyfriends on a new Comedy Central sitcom, The Sarah Silverman Program (premiering February 1 at 10:30 p.m. Eastern). And they're everything the gay characters on Queer as Folk and Will &Grace were too afraid and unimaginative and busy chasing their own boring tails to be: fat, bearded, nerdy, bickering, dude speaking, glasses wearing, karate chopping, video game playing, covertly masturbating, metal T-shirt–wearing malcontents. In other words, these are homosexuals I understand: My circle of friends finally represented fictionally on television. And I feel validated by a sitcom for the first time.
7.25.2007 1:28pm
Just Me:
I always find amusing that whenever someone says anything about a group of people someone rejoinds that if he thinks ____ think that he must not know very many ______. Surely even the most sociable person only knows several hundred or so people well enough to represent that he understands their thinking on a given subject. And its likley that person knows people mainly from his or her own area. I feel I know many gay and lesbian people, and I have a good idea what they think about labels. But I don't know, for example what older gays and lesbians think (most of my friends are young). Nor do I know what terms those that live on the other coast, or in the Mid-west would find acceptable. I find that those "in the movement" feel a lot more strongly about these things than those who are less active. Nonetheless, unlike EV, I am happy to call just about anyone just about anything because I don't want to offend. I would simply ask that when I, like EV here, am clearly not intending offense they not respond with deliberately offensive words like bigot.
7.25.2007 1:29pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I agree with Eugene that the term "homosexual" is perfectly fine.

Though, I think a more apt point would be those who refuse to use the word gay but insist on homosexual or otherwise put "gay" in quotation marks, often indicates bigotry.

I want to respect those whose worldview differs from mine, who hold legitimate convinctions on sexual moral issues. However, that still should not give carte blanch to gay bash with rhetoric.

I think antigay bigotry, like racism or antisemitism does exist. And not all bigots are like the KKK or Fred Phelps, who simply admit that they hate. Further I think constructive criticism of social groups can be non-bigoted, and often is valuable and needed. However, that criticism can cross the line into bigotry. And it can be hard to tell, indeed debatable, as to when the line is crossed, especially when those accused of bigotry are highly intelligent or intellectual types, who may have legitimate points intermixed with bigotry.

A textbook example of this difficulty is Bill Buckley's book In Search of AntiSemitism where he sought to answer whether his friends Pat Buchanan and Joe Sobran were indeed anti-Semites (or were they intellectuals, with a different, but still socially respectable, point of view?). Buckley's book, as far as I remember, gave a seemingly convoluted answer to the question.

But if I may point out indicators of what I think signifies antigay bigotry, they are as follows:

1) If someone insists on calling homosexuals "sodomites";

2) the repeated use of Paul Cameron's phony reduced lifespan figures (between 39-43) for homosexuals;

3) the facile equation of male homosexuality with anal sex;

4) the attempt to "deconstruct" the homosexual person, claiming that no homosexual persons exists only chosen homosexual acts (and yes, I know gay/queer theorist like Foucault have pioneered this argument);

5) the use of a variety of buzzwords or buzzphrases about homosexuals "recruiting" children into the "lifestyle" or otherwise preying on children.
7.25.2007 1:31pm
FantasiaWHT:
Yankev- how do you use "Jew" as a verb?

Also, it's interesting to think about the different associations with calling someone "Jewish" vs. "A Jew"
7.25.2007 1:32pm
The McGehee (mail) (www):
All the tenth-generation Scottish-Americans I know dislike the word "floogelnorf."

All the ninth- and eleventh-generation Scottish-Americans I know think all the tenth-generation Scottish-Americans I know are a bunch of floogelforfing crybabies.
7.25.2007 1:34pm
sjalterego (mail):
Well I do know that those who are actively involved in the anti-homosexuality movement dislike and think it pejorative to be called bigots, homophobic, fag haters etc. Therefore, I think not only "the overwhelming majority of gays and lesbians, but [also] those ... who are active in the movement" should refrain from calling those in the anti-homosexuality movement such names/words. They should use the preferred term "right thinking Americans".
7.25.2007 1:34pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):
The notion that changing the word will change perceptions is so essentially Orwellian that it is downright funny. In 1984, the government seeks to abolish all improper ways of thinking by abolishing some words, so that it was impossible to think in certain ways. The effort to replace the value neutral "homosexual" with "gay" was part of that Orwellian effort to make homosexuality perceived in a positive way.

When my daughter was in middle school, I was horrified to hear her use the term "gay" as an insult: "That's so gay." I explained to her that one can disapprove of homosexuality without making an adjective describing it into an insult. Homosexuals had achieved their goal--replacing a neutral word with a positive word--but they hadn't changed fundamental attitudes. This was in a community that prided itself on being pro-gay, with schools breaking state law to promote homosexuality without warning parents in advance.

Maybe homosexuals should stop emulating Big Brother, and ask themselves why changing the word doesn't fix the attitudes? Or would that provoke too much introspection?
7.25.2007 1:35pm
Steve L (mail):
John Aravosis, a leading gay rights spokesman, at Americablog attacked this point directly. If you need proof, his argument is here:

In this article at americablog.com

Pretty much explains to you that your point is absolutely wrong.
7.25.2007 1:36pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):
Jon Rowe writes:

But if I may point out indicators of what I think signifies antigay bigotry, they are as follows:

1) If someone insists on calling homosexuals "sodomites";
The only reason to do this might be in a discussion of the classical period, where there was a pretty clear distinction between sodomites and catamites. (Homosexual activists used to use classical period homosexuality as a justification for modern homoseuxuality--ignoring that during much of the classical period, it was a lot closer to NAMBLA than an equal relationship.)

2) the repeated use of Paul Cameron's phony reduced lifespan figures (between 39-43) for homosexuals;
You claim it's phony. Evidence? Or did the vast number of homosexual men who died of AIDS in their 30s and 40s not affect average lifespans?

3) the facile equation of male homosexuality with anal sex;
Oh? You mean most homosexual men don't have anal sex? You sure you want to defend that position?

4) the attempt to "deconstruct" the homosexual person, claiming that no homosexual persons exists only chosen homosexual acts (and yes, I know gay/queer theorist like Foucault have pioneered this argument);
So Foucault was an anti-homosexual bigot?

5) the use of a variety of buzzwords or buzzphrases about homosexuals "recruiting" children into the "lifestyle" or otherwise preying on children.
Except that you know that there are homosexual men (and some lesbian women) who prey on children. It isn't a majority; it is probably not even a large minority. But there's a reason that homoseuxals use the term "chickenhawk," and it isn't because they are describing rare members of their community, or the imaginings of anti-homosexual bigots.
7.25.2007 1:45pm
Waldensian (mail):

But if I may point out indicators of what I think signifies antigay bigotry, they are as follows:

There is another crystal clear indicator that someone is a bigot: the "I'm not...but" lead-in to a sentence. This is quite common. As in:

"I'm not a racist but..."
[Translation: "I am a racist because I think that...."]

"I don't want to be sexist but...."
[Translation: "I have sexist views, including...."]

"I'm not a homophobe but..."
[Translation: "I dislike homosexuals so I think that...."]

An equally clear tip-off is the multi-purpose corollary:

"I think they [insert group] should have the same rights as everyone else but..."
7.25.2007 1:48pm
jim:
Perhaps besides the point, but doesn't the word homosexual refer to a broad sexual orientation, while gay and lesbian refer to more specific sexual identities?

A fine point, I know, but occasionally relevant: Such as when the speaker does not care to imply socially constructed identities, when speaking about people who lived before the gay and lesbian identity movements, or when speaking about people in the context of a culture that has different types and concepts for sexuality.
7.25.2007 1:51pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):
Waldensian writes:

An equally clear tip-off is the multi-purpose corollary:

"I think they [insert group] should have the same rights as everyone else but..."
This is fun! "I think police offficers should have the same rights as everyone else but they shouldn't be subject to arrest for carrying a gun." Does that make gun control advocates into bigots?
7.25.2007 1:57pm
TerrencePhilip:
I think "homosexual" is an old-school word, you will see people like Judge Posner using it (in contexts where they engage in nonjudgmental discussion of the topic). It is not offensive in itself, or at least has not been perceived that way until recently; it is the kind of term educated people would have used in place of more pejorative older terms like sodomite, etc. Maybe it is now being driven out of the bounds of acceptable language as "negro" and "colored" were; it is just part of the evolution of culture and language, I guess.
7.25.2007 2:00pm
OrinKerr:
Frank Cross writes:
The issue is whether homosexual is in fact now a pejorative. Seems to me that depends on context, but in some contexts I would say it is. . . . I'd generally steer clear of the word in public speaking, because of the prospect of misunderstanding.
FWIW, I think that's right.
7.25.2007 2:01pm
e:
You can call me heterosexual. "Straight" doesn't really bother me, but I'd prefer a less silly and euphemistic word. I'd prefer to leave that word to its other meanings. Maybe straight is the opposite of bent, maybe in some circles it is thought of as closed-minded, or dull. I really don't usually define myself by sexuality, but when categorization is called for, I'd prefer accuracy to ambiguous and juvenile language. If others use hetero as insult, that's their problem. For those who like or need labels, don't limit my use of accurate language or appropriate otherwise non-descriptive words. Keep your neuroses to yourself. You can call yourself a non-breeder American if it makes you gay, but that path is already crowded and in sore need of repair. I'm an often happy non-breeder American. You can call me a bigot or an atheist Christianist fag if you wish, though I might disagree. You can call me heterosexual if it strikes your fancy. At least that would be accurate, even though I generally prefer for strangers to stay outside of my bedroom.
7.25.2007 2:02pm
SteveW:
Mayor Jim Naugle of Fort Lauderdale, FL, is in hot water with his local gay community partly because of his use of the word "homosexual," instead of "gay." Here's how it was reported in the Sun-Sentinel:

[Naugle] angered many in the South Florida gay community last week when he said, "I don't use the word 'gay.' I use the word 'homosexual.' Most of them aren't gay. They're unhappy."

Naugle made the comments when talking about his support of a proposed $250,000 robotic restroom on the beach. The self-cleaning contraption would have a door that automatically opens after a set time. Naugle said the Robo-John could help curb "homosexual activity" in public bathrooms.
7.25.2007 2:05pm
El Blogero (mail):
Great post. Now, can you take on the absurd pseudo-word "homophobia." As far as I can tell, this pseudo-word means either "fear of the same" or, more shockingly, "fear of homos." If it is the latter, it would be first time in modern times that a slur (homo) was included in a politically correct word. Also, what exactly does "fear" in this context mean? Isn't the intended term prejudice, dislike or even hate? What does fear have to do with it, and why would anyone recoil at being told that he or she "fears" a group (compare this to being called a racist, for example)?
7.25.2007 2:08pm
SteveW:
What the heck is a "Christianist"? Is the writer implying a parallel between Islamists (who by deninition are willing to use murder, violence and terror to place the world under Islamic rule) and anyone (or at least any Christian) who entertains Judeo-Christian views about the morality of homosexual acts? If so, it seems the writer may have his own bigoted attitudes as well.


Where did you get that definition of Islamist?

My understanding is that the popular definition of Islamist (as opposed to Muslim) is one who wants the government to impose Islamic religious law on the general population. Some people have started to use the word Christianist to mean one whose advocacy for particular governmental policies is motivated solely by his or her religious beliefs.

At least that's how the words commonly are used on the blogosphere. Islamist and Christianist are mostly used for negative criticism.
7.25.2007 2:19pm
NickM (mail) (www):
A person using the term "Christianist" calls someone else a bigot. Oh, the irony.

Nick
7.25.2007 2:23pm
liberty (mail) (www):
1. It really seems like an onion article, not a real concern. I find it astounding that so many of you are willing to go along with this absurd PC notion that we have to change the totally objective term "homosexual" to pander to a few loonies who have a problem with it. It isn't a word with a pejorative meaning or usage history-- it has a literal meaning and has been used in the most objective contexts, unlike words like "fag" and "queer" and "dyke" and "fairy" and "lesbo" and those kinds of words which though some have been turned around, are clearly the preferred pejorative terms.

2. If we can't use homosexual, then I guess we can't use heterosexual either? What about asexual? Do we need to re-write our science books? What do we call plants with "reproduction that occurs without the union of male and female gametes"?
7.25.2007 2:24pm
Houston Lawyer:
There are lots of pejoratives for homosexuals. I found it odd that younger people had started using gay as a pejorative in a non-sexual sense. If someone wants to use one, they clearly know how to.

If people want to run around making ever more fanciful terms to call themselves, such as African American, they shouldn’t expect the rest of us to keep up.
7.25.2007 2:26pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
SteveW: Isn't the mayor in hot water more because he publicly says most gays are unhappy, presumably because he thinks there's something bad about homosexuality?
7.25.2007 2:27pm
frankcross (mail):
For the record Cameron's data is pretty dubious. I'll skip over the foreign data, but his US study relied on
obituary data from the Washington Blade (which does not publish a regular obituary section equivalent to those found in general distribution papers. This is not the sort of representative sample on which one can draw conclusions for the general population.

The simple lack of representativeness is alone a problem (like an internet poll), but the methodology had several skewing factors. For example, it covers only "newsworthy" deaths, which may be influenced by youth. It wouldn't include closeted gays, who may well be less likely to contract AIDS. And if older gays are more likely to be closeted than younger ones, that would create an enormous bias in the average age of death research.
7.25.2007 2:28pm
JC:
Whether or not speakers manage to adopt whatever new descriptive term a particular group (or vocal subset of a particular group) is advocating, my sense is that the advocacy itself is ultimately counterproductive.

When speakers are constantly on guard to avoid using a term that might be construed as impolite or hostile to a particular group, they are inevitably less comfortable around members of that group. The doctor had to struggle to find an appropriate term for "Jewish", for example, was probably less comfortable with his Jewish patients not because he was prejudiced but because he was always on guard to avoid uttering an offensive term. Similarly, I would expect that folks that work with openly gay colleagues are less likely to bond if they are trying to remember to avoid the word "homosexual". Particularly for those individuals that know that their social skills are below average, given the tremendous cost of being viewed as a bigot, the easiest option is to avoid unnecessary interactions with any coworker that isn't just like them. Over time, that sort of social discomfort is going to lead to cliques that end up disfavoring the minority group members when it comes time to hand out praise and promotions.
7.25.2007 2:29pm
Ken Arromdee:

"I'm not a racist but..."
[Translation: "I am a racist because I think that...."]


That doesn't mean "I am a racist". It means "I know some people will call me a racist". They may do so truthfully or falsely. And if it's falsely, saying something you know will be falsely called racist doesn't mean you are one.
7.25.2007 2:30pm
Rick Wilcox (www):
SteveW:
Come on, you posted the full context of the quote and you still think the outrage is over the word "homosexual"?

What's kind of sick about this is that an accurate gender-neutral term is going to get trampled because of the stigma bigots attach to it. I suppose Hindus need to stop using the swastika, children's underwear or swimwear ads need to be banned because pedophiles and ephebophiles pleasure themselves while looking them over, and holy Hell what are pansexuals (like myself) allowed to call themselves these days?

I'll stop using the accurate word "homosexual" when I stop hearing "heteronormative" and "het(ero)" used as insults.
7.25.2007 2:36pm
Rick Wilcox (www):
Addendum to my previous post:

Well, looks like EV and liberty beat me to it. That'll teach me to post from work.
7.25.2007 2:38pm
Philistine (mail):
El Blogero:


Also, what exactly does "fear" in this context mean? Isn't the intended term prejudice, dislike or even hate? What does fear have to do with it, and why would anyone recoil at being told that he or she "fears" a group (compare this to being called a racist, for example)?


Isn't "prejudice, dislike or even hate" pretty much the settled definition of "phobia" in the word "xenophobia"?
7.25.2007 2:38pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

For the record Cameron's data is pretty dubious. I'll skip over the foreign data, but his US study relied on
obituary data from the Washington Blade (which does not publish a regular obituary section equivalent to those found in general distribution papers. This is not the sort of representative sample on which one can draw conclusions for the general population.
This would seem like a valid criticism. Nonetheless: did or did not AIDS cause a dramatic increase in death rates for homosexual and bisexual men, many of them dying decades younger than natural causes? If it had only killed off .01% of gay men, I rather doubt AIDS would have been the profound political cause that it became.
7.25.2007 2:39pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Isn't "prejudice, dislike or even hate" pretty much the settled definition of "phobia" in the word "xenophobia"?
Phobia in the psychological sense refers to an irrational fear. People with agoraphobia develop cold sweats or panic attacks from going into large open spaces.

In the political sense that it is now commonly used, it only means disapproval. The vast majority of people accused of "homophobia" aren't afraid of homosexuals; they just don't approve of either homosexual behavior or of the totalitarian tendencies that homosexual activists display.
7.25.2007 2:45pm
Dave N (mail):
Eugene didn't post the link--and the quoted language was in response to one of my posts. For a frame of reference, I will include the relevant parts of all 3. These can all be found toward the end of the thread in EV's 7/24 post entitled "Bloggers and Campaign Finance Laws"

These are the relevant portions of the various posts:

RandyR: "And we have often seen from Christianists, men who rail on about gays have often proven to be gay themselves."

My Response: "[R}efering to Christians as Christianists shows a profound lack of respect for people of faith--but I suspect you already knew that and were trying to be provocative."

RandyR: "I do have a respect for people of faith, including Christians. I have no respect for an entirely different breed called Christianists. . . .
A person who spouts bigots comments may call himself whatever he likes, but I will call him a racist. (And I don't do so lightly, or at least I try not to!) A person who hate gays may call himself whatever he likes, but he's still a bigot. And a person who calls himself a Christian but wants to regulate everyone else's life to conform to his religious views is a Christianist."

The last quoted language is found three paragraphs before the languge EV quotes.

For those interested in the "Christianist" context of the quote, I hope this is helpful.
7.25.2007 2:49pm
Philistine (mail):

Phobia in the psychological sense refers to an irrational fear. People with agoraphobia develop cold sweats or panic attacks from going into large open spaces.


Generally, sure.

But that is not the case with the term xenophobia, at least. Which has (AFAICT) always meant fear and/or contempt of the foreign or different. This meaning has been general long before "homophobia" became a common term.
7.25.2007 2:50pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

I'll stop using the accurate word "homosexual" when I stop hearing "heteronormative" and "het(ero)" used as insults.
And what's really sad about this is that as homosexuality has gone from something unlawful and which was generally looked down upon to its current status (legally equal in most states, and socially completely equal even in very conservative places like Idaho), the ferocity of the homosexual rage has gotten much worse.

If the sort of weird insulting stuff like calling ideas "heteronormative" were coming from the pre-Stonewall generation, who truly suffered from governmental and societal mistreatment, it would be understandable. But why is the generation that has grown up in a society that is generally at least as supportive of homosexuality as of heterosexuality ranting about these things?
7.25.2007 2:53pm
AF:
Consider the adjectives "Jew" and "homosexual," used to identify an individual person -- eg, "Barney Frank, a homosexual Jew Congressman from Massachusetts."

1) Which, if either, of these usages should be avoided?

2) If one should be avoided and the other should not, is that because, as an empirical matter, one is more likely to be perceived as bigoted than the other?

3) If the answer to question (2) is yes, should one reconsider one's answer to question (1) upon receiving new information about how the usage is likely to be perceived in a particular context?
7.25.2007 2:56pm
jim:

Isn't "prejudice, dislike or even hate" pretty much the settled definition of "phobia" in the word "xenophobia"?


I would say that xenophobia is generally used to describe prejudice that arises from a fear of things (people) unknown. Or at least that is the heavy connotation.

Use of the term homophobia to describe prejudice against gays thus seems to imply that such prejudices arise from unfamiliarity or fear. This is likely the case in many situations, but patently not the case in others.

On the other hand, the form of the word racism would seem to indicate hatred arising from an ideology which uses race as a fundemental criteria for explaining the world, and yet the word has long since ceased to be constrained to that definition.
7.25.2007 2:57pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

But that is not the case with the term xenophobia, at least. Which has (AFAICT) always meant fear and/or contempt of the foreign or different. This meaning has been general long before "homophobia" became a common term.
I'm curious: did xenophobia come out of psychology's clinical use of the term? Liberals now use it to mean anyone that believes we should enforce laws against illegal immigration, to the point where it means nothing at all, just like the continual misuse of "racist" and "homophobia" have rendered these words almost meaningless.
7.25.2007 2:57pm
Grange95 (mail):
Hmm, if I read this correctly, it looks like you are advocating what I would call the defense of "blame the listener"--if someone is offended by your language, it is never your fault for choosing that language, it is their fault for being offended by it.

To summarize the argument, it apparently doesn't matter to you if members of a group feel your language is insulting, unless they somehow can prove that some supermajority of the group shares the same view. And even if the group does show to your satisfaction that almost all of the group agrees that your language is insulting (or demeaning, or otherwise impolite), that fact is insufficient by itself to make you change your language usage even though you are fully aware it is insulting or impolite.

If this is truly your position, then you logically must agree that it is acceptable in general discourse to use any offensive racial, ethnic, sexual, or religious language you want, so long as your intent was not to offend. Never mind that the listener perceives your language to have negative or pejorative connotations, or that you could express your point equally well without use of the offending language. Because your intent trumps all, the listener must tolerate your offensive language.

I doubt this is your true position on the issue, and I think that the problem in your argument is giving too little credence to the views of the group in question. If a significant portion (not even a majority) of a group finds a particular word or phrase to be offensive, one should no longer use that word or phrase in polite discourse. To do otherwise marks one as impolite or insensitive at best, and mean-spirited or bigoted at worst.
7.25.2007 2:58pm
The General:
The main problem is that too many HOMOSEXUALS/GAYS/LESBIANS, etc, think that if someone doesn't think that homosexuality/gayness/lesbianness is just super and should be promoted at all costs and says so, then that person is somehow a bigot and a hater that needs to be exposed as such. They're too small-minded or intolerant to the view that there can be non-bigoted reasons to oppose such behavior and related policies. Really, the name-calling is just a way to silence political opponents rather than making actual arguments, i.e., "Agree or you're a bigot." Until there can be real discussion and debate over the merits of the issues involved, all we're gonna see is more name-calling and nothing will be accomplished.
7.25.2007 2:58pm
SteveW:
Isn't the mayor in hot water more because he publicly says most gays are unhappy, presumably because he thinks there's something bad about homosexuality?


He's in hot water with the gay community for several reasons. The robotic bathroom and his use of the word "homosexual" are only part of the problem. Also, I should stress that Naugle intentionally uses the word "homosexual" in a pejorative way. As you noted in your original post, "[T]here are clearly pejorative ways to use certain words (including 'gay,' 'lesbian,' or anything else)."
7.25.2007 3:02pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Which groups are entitled to be offended, and by whom? A great many activist "gays and lesbians" love to label anybody opposed to ANY of their political agendas as "homophobic," a very inaccurate label. Indeed, most of the group-identity activists in this country are perfectly comfortable labeling all those who oppose their various political agendas, or their fundamental effort to identify themselves primarily by their group membership, as being bigoted, racist, "homophobic," and similar outrageous terms. Am I entitled to be offended? Can I object to their language, and if I do, must the rest of the public bend to my will?

If, as an earlier commenter suggested, most individuals who are sexually attracted to members of the same sex mostly wanted to be treated as individuals rather than categorized primarily by their sexual orientation (which I think they do), then perhaps the activist groups which purport to represent them should stop being so strident in demanding special laws for them precisely BECAUSE of their sexual orientation.

Finally, ANY term can be said in a derogatory manner. As others have pointed out, "gay" can and often is pronounced in a sneering, contemptuous manner. "Homosexual" can be said offensively even when the accented syllable is "sex" rather than "ho" (think of the reverend in The Simpsons going on about "homoSEXuals").

As a general rule, I'm all for calling groups what they prefer to be called. I've previously argued on this blog that "pro life" and "pro choice" are the appropriate labels to use for their respective adherents, because they both suggest the positive viewpoint of that general collection of policy positions. But this can be taken to extreme, particularly where, as the post notes, there's an extensive amount of evidence that there is not unity among the group as to which is the "preferred" term. It's foolish to waste political capital demonizing people who may well be on your side politically for using the "improper" term. If I'm a legislator stuck in the middle of, say, a gay marriage issue, and I'm wavering and might go either way, getting dressed down for saying something "offensive" when I had no intent at all to offend would tick me off pretty bad, and probably make me less likely to side with that advocacy group's desires.

Plus, this sort of obsessive focus on language trivializes political debate and helps turn elections into relentless "gotcha" sessions which focus not on substantive policies but on catching candidates in "mistakes" which can easily be reduced to sound bites.
7.25.2007 3:09pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
They're too small-minded or intolerant to the view that there can be non-bigoted reasons to oppose such behavior and related policies.

Well, let's hear your reasons and give specific examples where you think someone said something defensible but was shouted down by being called a bigot.
7.25.2007 3:14pm
bjr26:
Eugene, thanks for the citations to Sullivan and the Advocate. But do you think they suffice to demonstrate convincingly that "homosexual" is in widespread use among the -- ah, let's us "LGBT" for now -- community? I could point you to this Wikipedia entry on the word "gay":

"Some people reject the term homosexual as an identity-label because they find it too clinical-sounding. They believe it is too focused on physical acts rather than romance or attraction, or too reminiscent of the era when homosexuality was considered a mental illness. Conversely, some people find the term gay to be offensive or reject it as an identity-label because they perceive the cultural connotations to be undesirable or because of the negative connotations of the slang usage of the word.

According to the Safe Schools Coalition of Washington's Glossary for School Employees:

“ Homosexual: Avoid this term; it is clinical, distancing and archaic. Sometimes appropriate in referring to behavior (although same-sex is the preferred adj.). When referring to people, as opposed to behavior, homosexual is considered derogatory and the terms gay and lesbian are preferred, at least in the Northwest [of the United States]. ”
—Safe School Coalition, Glossary for School Employees

I think the Safe School Coalition hits the mark here. The phrase "incidence of homosexuality" is less offensive than, say, "according to Professor William Eskeridge, a homosexual, same-sex marriage should be . . ." So I ask again: are the costs really that high to switching to "gay and lesbian" for general usage?
7.25.2007 3:15pm
Guestius:
You're missing the point of the original comment. The point was not to make people change the terms they are using. The point was to undermine political opponents by grouping them as "bigot[s]" and "Christianist[s]" based on their use of a common term. In other words, it's an ad-hom.

By fighting on the merits of the term you're missing the larger point.
7.25.2007 3:22pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Clayton: The CDC reports that there were 450,000 AIDS deaths from 1981 to 2000, and 40% of them stemmed from infections from male-to-male sex. Taking 4% as the best estimate of the U.S. male population that's gay, we're talking roughly 200,000 premature deaths from AIDS out of a population of roughly 6 million. (All numbers rough, since more precise numbers would be misleading.) Taking life expectancy at birth being roughly 75, and assuming that the average AIDS victim died at 35 (warning: guess, but I suspect a guess that's a bit on the low side), that's a life expectancy decline for gays of (75-35) * 200,000/6M = about 1 to 2 years.

Naturally, this doesn't speak to any other possible causes of lower life expectancy; but it does suggest that it is not sound to argue:
You claim [Paul Cameron's reduced lifespan figures (between 39-43) for homosexuals) are] phony. Evidence? Or did the vast number of homosexual men who died of AIDS in their 30s and 40s not affect average lifespans?
7.25.2007 3:23pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):

3) the facile equation of male homosexuality with anal sex;

Oh? You mean most homosexual men don't have anal sex? You sure you want to defend that position?


No. John Corvino has a great article on why it's inaccurate to define gay men = anal sex. The simple reason is some/many, even if a statistical minority, don't have anal sex. As Corvino put it:


For me, being gay means that I like guys. It means that I like guys—I have crushes on them, I fall in love with them (one in particular), I want to “get physical” with them. It doesn’t specify how I should do this.
7.25.2007 3:24pm
frankcross (mail):
Something overlooked, but significant, is that it matters who's doing the speaking. I was advising a conservative student arguing in a debate against gay marriage and suggested he say "gay" rather than "homosexual." I would not have given the same advice to the advocate for the other side. Because if Andrew Sullivan uses the word, you know it's not pejorative. If a speaker taking an "anti" position uses the word, people will react more negatively. Some of the people you are trying to persuade will question your credibility, wonder about your attitude. If such a speaker uses "gay" instead of "homosexual" that is signaling to the audience that he isn't hateful and is respectful of gays, but simply believes that marriage goes too far and they will think harder about that position.

Some will get all upset at this distinction, I suspect, on some sort of high-horsed principle. But language is about effective communication, in this case, persuasion. And the strategic tactic was to use the word gay.
7.25.2007 3:38pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Some people reject the term homosexual as an identity-label because they find it too clinical-sounding. They believe it is too focused on physical acts rather than romance or attraction, or too reminiscent of the era when homosexuality was considered a mental illness.
If you read articles like this one on Volokh Conspiracy, you can see why some people think it is about "physical acts rather than romance or attraction...."

I'm sure that there are homosexual men who hook with one partner, and stay with that person for years or decades. But from what I have seen living in the Bay Area, completely anonymous sex--sometimes with persons that the recipient of anal sex never even sees face to face--are pretty typical male homosexuality.
7.25.2007 3:50pm
abb3w:
For anyone who's still looking, the original comment.

Clayton E. Cramer: (more or less)
Philistine:
Isn't "prejudice, dislike or even hate" pretty much the settled definition of "phobia" in the word "xenophobia"?
Phobia in the psychological sense refers to an irrational fear. People with agoraphobia develop cold sweats or panic attacks from going into large open spaces.

In the political sense that it is now commonly used, it only means disapproval. The vast majority of people accused of "homophobia" aren't afraid of homosexuals; they just don't approve of either homosexual behavior or of the totalitarian tendencies that homosexual activists display.
I'll agree with Clayton that "irrational" is key to the definition, in all usage. I don't have a phobia about hitting the ground at a couple hundred miles per second, nor about a dynamite-strapped <ethnic> standing next to me; merely an ordinary fear. Remove the speed or dynamite, and I'm not bothered. On the other hand, I believe Philistine's position is closer overall (and the position less prejudicial). While clinical psychiatric terminology usually restricts "phobia" terminology to only only fear-based aversions, more casual usage in wider society includes irrational reactions of hatred as well.

While I have no Psych or Medical qualifications (I'm just a well-read computer geek), I'd suspect that both such fear and hate reactions are subspecies of a broader category, since adrenalin may cause either "flight or fight" reactions; I suspect the clinical meaning is limited due to the relative frequency of cases sufficiently disabling as to require treatment. This shouldn't be taken to mean that I believe every whatever-phobe qualifies as having a mental disorder; some may be the result of an unconsidered educationally ingrained response, such as the early 17th century aversion to tomatoes in belief they were poisonous.
7.25.2007 3:50pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):
Naturally, this doesn't speak to any other possible causes of lower life expectancy...
You are correct; AIDS should not have caused a dramatic reduction in average lifespan. Alcohol and drug abuse are well-established to be much more common among homosexuals (both male and female), as is smoking. Those might make more of a difference than AIDS in reducing lifespan.

I would agree in any case that relying on obits from a gay newspaper is unlikely to produce particularly trustworthy data.
7.25.2007 3:53pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

No. John Corvino has a great article on why it's inaccurate to define gay men = anal sex. The simple reason is some/many, even if a statistical minority, don't have anal sex.
Still, the equation of "gay men = anal sex" is no more bigotry than the equation of "straight couples = vaginal intercourse." There are straight couples that have not yet had vaginal intercourse (so that both can pretend to themselves that they are still virgins), but it is a large enough majority that do have vaginal intercourse (at least occasionally) that it is a fair assumption.
7.25.2007 3:58pm
GayRoger:
I've read that AmericaBlog post before, I think it's absolutely right. Go read it, if you haven't already. But I do have a few other thoughts.

There's a difficulty in classifying people into different sexual orientations. I see at least three possible ways to do so:
1) based on behavior,
2) based on desire, or
3) based on self-identification.

Depending which method of classification you use, you could end up with very different groups of gays. The groups you might see switch between "gay" and "not gay" according to system are people who have sex with persons of the same sex; and people who acknowledge sexual desire for persons of the same sex, while consciously rejecting those desires, as manifested in behavior or self-identification.

I don't believe 'homosexual' and 'gay' describe the same group. Because of the clinical/psychological setting 'homosexual' arose from, I believe it tends to describe groups based on (1) or (2). These are the more objective categorizations, I think (e.g., (2) might be measured physiologically). 'Gay' tends to describe (3).

Personally, I take issue with 'homosexual' because it's tied to its clinical roots. When people use the term (outside of a clinical setting), I perceive the speaker as focusing my identity on my acts or my reactions to particular stimuli—while identity seems more correctly determined based on personal viewpoints and self-description. When I say, "I am gay," I assert more than sexual attraction or activity; calling me 'homosexual' removes the nuance and reduces me only to sexual attraction or activity, in a way I find demeaning.

As a practical matter, I think people know that the thought of two men engaging in anal sex causes visceral disgust for many; those who wish to use 'homosexual' pejoratively enjoy the 'homosex' emphasis, and gay rights activists probably prefer 'gay' to dissociate gay people from that visceral reaction.
7.25.2007 4:02pm
El Blogero (mail):
Re the comments on my comment:

1. Xenophobia is specifically meant to describe an irrational fear. People who use it in the "dislike, prejudice, hate" construct are in fact adding to the definition.

2. In any event, the xenophobia example still illustrates my point: first, "homophobia" is an absurd pseudo-word because the prefix either means "same" or, at best, "derogatory term for homosexuals"; second, the whole word means "fear of," but the "dislike, prejudice, hate" construct is being added much the same as in xenophobia, without foundation.
7.25.2007 4:07pm
Townleybomb (mail) (www):
frankcross--

That's a very good point, but I think that it's just as true on the flipside. As an earlier commenter put it:

"If I'm a legislator stuck in the middle of, say, a gay marriage issue, and I'm wavering and might go either way, getting dressed down for saying something "offensive" when I had no intent at all to offend would tick me off pretty bad, and probably make me less likely to side with that advocacy group's desires."

To the extent that people who make arguments like this are interested in serious dialogue (rather than Clayton Craymeresque venting, which I think is more often the case), I think that they're ultimately self-defeating.

And to add the obligatory 'azza' statement, as a homosexual man, I see absolutely nothing at all offensive in the use of that term.
7.25.2007 4:11pm
BEB (www):
Does all this mean that whenever one of my gay and lesbian friends refer to themselves as "homosexual", I can can call them "self hating gays/lesbians"?
7.25.2007 4:19pm
Christian K:
Love the post + thread, great conversation.

My own opinion as a gay man: I have never heard a gay man or woman refer to themselves or other gays or lesbians as "homosexual", except in a self deprecating or mocking fashion. When I do hear someone refer to gay men or women as a "homosexual" or refer to "homosexuals" as a group, I assume the person is bigoted against gay men and lesbians.

Also re:


The General:
The main problem is that too many HOMOSEXUALS/GAYS/LESBIANS, etc, think that if someone doesn't think that homosexuality/gayness/lesbianness is just super and should be promoted at all costs and says so, then that person is somehow a bigot and a hater that needs to be exposed as such. They're too small-minded or intolerant to the view that there can be non-bigoted reasons to oppose such behavior and related policies. Really, the name-calling is just a way to silence political opponents rather than making actual arguments, i.e., "Agree or you're a bigot." Until there can be real discussion and debate over the merits of the issues involved, all we're gonna see is more name-calling and nothing will be accomplished.


I agree completely! That is the opinion of most gay men and lesbians (mine as well), if you don't agree that gay men and lesbians should be able to live their lives free from prejudice or discrimination, you are bigoted. However, I would not call it "small minded" just morally superior.
7.25.2007 4:27pm
Seamus (mail):
After your numerous prescriptivist v. descriptivist posts, I find it incredulous that you can claim unilaterally prescriptively that homosexual is nonpejorative.

"Incredulous" is not a synonym for "incredible."
7.25.2007 4:37pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
"Still, the equation of "gay men = anal sex" is no more bigotry...."

The antigay types I'm thinking of really don't follow that kind of nuanced reasoning (i.e., many gay men have anal sex, so we can reasonably make a connection between the two) but equate the two as synonymous while often ignoring oral sex or lesbianism.

If any sexual behavior ought to be equated with gay male sexuality it's oral sex because that, unlike anal sex, is nearly universally practiced by gay men. It's also the way lesbians have sex and between 85-90% of heterosexuals do too.

Yet, the antigay types I'm thinking of don't do this because it's not divisive enough and can't be used to score rhetorical points.
7.25.2007 4:59pm
TheGoodReverend (mail) (www):
I think homosexual is less offensive as an adjective than as a noun. That might be an important distinction to draw.
7.25.2007 5:06pm
Sebastian Holsclaw (mail):
Strange, I'm homosexual (and because this may be a regional difference) from southern California.

My general understanding of the terms has always been that 'homosexual' identified people who engaged in sexual activity with members of their own sex. 'Gay' was used to describe the society, culture, and brotherhood of homosexuals.
7.25.2007 5:32pm
Ramza:
The way I see it is that usually/originally

Homosexual is used in a medical/psychological sense. A man who is attracted to men, or a women who is attracted to women. Sometimes it includes bisexuals sometimes the word homosexual doesn't.

Gay on the other hand is related to a social construct. A person who accepts he is gay, and then uses that term to describe himself or something related to him. Sometimes the word gay is not used to describe homosexuals but things people associate with homosexuals (even if it isn't related), such as "That is so gay."

To put it simply, Ted Haggard may be a homosexual, but he would never call himself gay.

----------------------

And I agree with the original poster Eugene was commenting on. Often "Christianists" (a recent made up poltical word that is no longer a creation and has its own set meaning) use homosexual far more often than they would use the word gay. Additionally they say it with disdain in their voice. Identifying non-christianist organizations such as the NYT who sometimes use homosexual misses the point, sometimes the NYT uses homosexual, sometimes gay, it isn't the amount of useages but the ratio.

Of course this is a "general rule" and there are plenty of exceptions.
7.25.2007 5:35pm
HidingMyName:
Why must we pretend that we approve of all other groups? While our society requires that we treat each other civilly, why must we constantly test our attitudes to ensure that we hold no negative feelings toward some group?

I have occasionally mentioned to gay friends that I think homosexuality is yucky -- but that I think broccoli is yucky as well. I hate broccoli, but that has no effect on our relationship. Likewise, there is no reason that I need to approve or condone their sexuality, because the relationship I share with that friend has nothing to do with sexuality.

Whether it's working in the same office or playing softball, his homosexuality and my heterosexuality never enter into it. And thus, my (lack of) appreciation of his sexuality doesn't affect how we interact, just as his sexuality itself doesn't harm me.

Perhaps I am a bigot, but I don't like homosexuality. That's my problem, not theirs. I will continue to treat gays civilly, and I hope that I will continue to have rewarding relationships with them. But I don't want to live in a society that expects me to like it.
7.25.2007 5:44pm
Randy R. (mail):
Pat: "If, as an earlier commenter suggested, most individuals who are sexually attracted to members of the same sex mostly wanted to be treated as individuals rather than categorized primarily by their sexual orientation (which I think they do), then perhaps the activist groups which purport to represent them should stop being so strident in demanding special laws for them precisely BECAUSE of their sexual orientation."

Excellent argument Pat, and one I agree with. But please tell, what specific laws are gays asking for that striaght people don't already have?

the General: "The main problem is that too many HOMOSEXUALS/GAYS/LESBIANS, etc, think that if someone doesn't think that homosexuality/gayness/lesbianness is just super and should be promoted at all costs and says so, then that person is somehow a bigot and a hater that needs to be exposed as such."

You are almost correct, General. Gays think homosexuality is just super for gays. Whether it should be promoted at ALL costs, I don't know, but it certainly shouldn't be repressed. Gays, on the other hand, have no interest in promoting homosexuality among straights. Why? Because we know better than anyone that you simply can't change a person's orientation. So it's a complete waste of everyone's time to promote homosexuality to people such as yourself, for instance. And yes, you are correct, anyone who has problems with gays is a bigot, because there is no rational reason for it. Thanks for the clarification.

Hat tip to DaveN for accurately quoting my comment which promted this thread.
7.25.2007 5:58pm
Richard Gould-Saltman (mail):
EV: I thought that here, of all places, there would be a recognition that the alleged origin of the phrase "rule of thumb" was (. . .wait for it...) (. . . not yet. . .) an old wives' tale. (Old wives: please send all complaints to E.C.). I remember a track-down of this, years ago, to references, without citation, in a couple of 19th century American cases, to mention of such a rule in Blackstone's Commentaries, which, when checked for the allged mention of such a rule, yielded none whatsoever. BTW, the American judges, IIRC, noted the rule only to mention it as an anachronism which they were rejecting.

If you feel your're being buffaloed by groups of people deciding that they will take offense at the application of certain label words to them, because those words are historically freighted, I can only imagine how you feel if those folks believe the words in question are historically freighted and are simply historically WRONG. . .
7.25.2007 6:04pm
Randy R. (mail):
THE ANSWER!

The National Gay and Lesbian Journalists' Association (NGLJA) (properly pronounced 'negligey' with a bit of a campy accent) has a stylebook which states: "Use only if 'heterosexual' would be used in parallel constructions, such as in medical contexts."

I myself agree that mostly people who hate gays use the word homosexual almost exclusively. Rarely, if ever, do people who hate gays use the term gay or lesbian, and if you scan this thread, you will find that to be true. That still means that there are people who love gays who sometimes use the term, or gays themselves. To me, it's a pretty good indicator, though.
7.25.2007 6:07pm
Randy R. (mail):
I hate to beat a dead horse, but heck why not?

Paul Cameron was stripped of his credentials for his consistent lack of ethics in the field of psychology. Yet he continues to produce 'studies' which all just happen to show how awful and terrible gay people are. His most famous study was to show that the average lifespan of gay men is in the low 40s. His methology was to read the obits of gay men in the Washington Blade and average their ages.

You could do the exact same thing yourself to find the average lifespan, say, of a soldier in Iraq. Simply read all the death notices in the paper, calculate that most of them died while in the 20s, and conclude that the average lifespan of a soldier is 23.

That's how stupid his methodology is. He has been exposed often about this, and his paper was written sometime in the early 90s. So any one who would seriously quote the guy on anything hasn't done anything except accept the word of biased idiots. If you do just a modicum of research, you will find the truth.

But as we know, when it comes to gays, Christianists have no interest in the truth.
7.25.2007 6:13pm
Yankev (mail):
Jon Rowe

1) If someone insists on calling homosexuals "sodomites";



Interesting. In some religious traditions (including the one that gave the world the story of Sodom), the people of Sodom were condemned for their xenophobia, greed, dishonesty and hard heartedness; their threats to rape the strangers were the result of a need to violently humiliate them more than out of lust. Notwithstanding Jewish tradition’s condemnation of male homosexual intercourse, “the sin of Sodom” means something very different to a traditional Jew than to a Christian.

Fantasia
How do you use “Jew” as a verb? Perhaps the charming phrase “Jew him down” is no longer in current use. I confess that I haven’t heard it since 1985, but then again some people are smart enough not to use it within earshot of someone they know is Jewish. Others are dumb enough not to realize it is offensive.


AF, “Jew” is a noun. When used as an adjective, it is offensive to most Jews that I know. Either Barney Frankel is a “homosexual Jewish Congressman” or a “homosexual Jew who serves as Congressman” – and who, in either case, was given a pass when he disgraced his district and his office by allowing his room-mate to run a prostitution ring out of their apartment.

bjr, would that be the same Washington where a city employee was disciplined for using “niggardly”, and was forced to apologize to a city councilor for the councilor's own ignorance (as in sorry I was so insensitive as to use a term that had nothing to do with race, but that confused and offended you)?
7.25.2007 6:18pm
Randy R. (mail):
Hiding: "Perhaps I am a bigot, but I don't like homosexuality. That's my problem, not theirs. I will continue to treat gays civilly, and I hope that I will continue to have rewarding relationships with them. But I don't want to live in a society that expects me to like it."

Thank you, Hiding my name, for a truly honest post. In fact, one of the most honest here. I have no problem with people who have some unarticulated problem with homosexuality. My problem is with people who don't feel that thats enough, and so they make up lies about us to justify their feelings. That I can't countenence.

Your feelings are your own, and, like everyone else, you are entitled to them, and they certainly are not wrong in any fashion. You don't have to like gay sex, and we gays don't have to like straight sex. In fact, I find the idea of a woman's genitals make me shudder! It's VERY icky to me. And I also find the thought of most of my friends, gay or straight, having sex, to be very icky. Ever think about your parents having sex? Pretty darn icky. Unless you look like Brad Pitt, most people would also probably also prefer not to visualize how you have sex with another person.

So, knowing that gays might even find your sexual acitivities quite disgusting, how should gays treat you? Civilly, I would hope. Should gay people, though, try to strip you or your rights to get married, or hold a job, or lease an apartment just because they don't like they way you have sex? I hope you get my point.

And yet, we find many people -- and people right here at the VK -- who feel exactly as you do regarding gays, and feel that they have to do everything they can to show what terrible people we are as a group, and that we must be banished from the land. And what exactly would any of that accomplish? Nothing at all.

So thanks for sharing your real feelings on the matter. If your gay friends are at all decent, I'm sure they would welcome a discussion like this. Try it, and get back to us.
7.25.2007 6:24pm
wooga:

Perhaps I am a bigot, but I don't like homosexuality. That's my problem, not theirs. I will continue to treat gays civilly, and I hope that I will continue to have rewarding relationships with them. But I don't want to live in a society that expects me to like it.

I don't like to think about fat people having sex. I grosses me out. Same with ugly and hairy people. I suppose I would be weirded out by midgets having sex too, but I've never seen it. Finally, man on man action is just not pleasing to my eye.

I guess that makes me a horrible, horrible bigot for not embracing and celebrating sexual diversity.
7.25.2007 6:26pm
wooga:
Many people are born predisposed to obesity, and some may briefly experiment with obesity during their freshman year of college. In fact, "fat" is an unfairly ambiguous term, as we all are a little bit fat - it's just a question of degree.

So... what happens if 80% of the population belonged to a cult which condemned fatness as evil gluttons, doomed to the bowels of hell? After all, the morbidly obese could always change their behavior or undergo severe surgery to 'correct' their obesity. We could even subsidize this surgery.

Ignoring the whole tautology argument about SSM, how would people feel about this cult society banning marriage between people over 500 pounds?
7.25.2007 6:36pm
wooga:
About 3% of the population is "morbidly obese."
7.25.2007 6:41pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Richard Gould-Saltman: You'd think right; see this post of mine from 2002.
7.25.2007 7:05pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Clayton: I appreciate your saying, "You are correct; AIDS should not have caused a dramatic reduction in average lifespan. Alcohol and drug abuse are well-established to be much more common among homosexuals (both male and female), as is smoking. Those might make more of a difference than AIDS in reducing lifespan." But earlier you had said, in response to a statement about "the repeated use of Paul Cameron's phony reduced lifespan figures (between 39-43) for homosexuals,"
You claim it's phony. Evidence? Or did the vast number of homosexual men who died of AIDS in their 30s and 40s not affect average lifespans?


In your work on guns, I've generally found you to be a cautious and thoughtful commentator. Yet in your comments on homosexuality, errors and reliance on unreliable data seem to creep in fairly often. It just seems to me that extending your usual care to this subject would be helpful.

On a related note, could you please pass along some more details on the studies that well establish the proposition that "Alcohol and drug abuse are ... much more common among homosexuals (both male and female), as is smoking"? Thanks.
7.25.2007 7:09pm
Chimaxx (mail):
HidingMyName:
Why must we pretend that we approve of all other groups? While our society requires that we treat each other civilly, why must we constantly test our attitudes to ensure that we hold no negative feelings toward some group?

I have occasionally mentioned to gay friends that I think homosexuality is yucky -- but that I think broccoli is yucky as well. I hate broccoli, but that has no effect on our relationship.


First off, I'm glad that you and broccoli have a good relationship despite the fact that you find it yucky. Broccoli has never had a bad word to say about you.

However, your post doesn't answer the question it poses: "Why must we constantly test our attitudes to ensure that we hold no negative feelings toward some group?" Don't you think it would be worth examining your feelings if your feelings of "yucky" extendes from the "-ity" to the group--if you found homosexuals yucky.

I find football yucky, but football players yummy.
I find fishing yucky, though I like both fish and fishermen a great deal.

AS long as you are happy enjoying their company, do not wince should they mention the name or fact of their same-sex partner (and act as if they should know better than to mention this around you), treat said partners with respect and civility should you meet them, and treat said partnerships with the same respect you would any other relationship of similar duration, how you feel about the sexual behaviors you presume they engage in is not really important (and it's a good bet that some of them share similar feelings of revulsion toward the sexual practices they presume you engage in)

El Blogero: Give it up. You may not think that "homophobia" SHOULD mean "irrational fear and revulsion toward homosexuals", and etymologically you might have a thin leg to stand on (but "homosexuality"--and "heterosexuality" are pretty much bastard creations themselves, combining one part Latin with one part Greek), but whether your approach to langauge is descriptive or prescriptive, the fact is that the word has been used to mean that since at least 1969. At this point, trying to make arguments that it shouldn't mean that just looks silly.

PatHMV:
A great many activist "gays and lesbians" love to label anybody opposed to ANY of their political agendas as "homophobic," a very inaccurate label.


Can you identify even a handful of this "great many" you refer to?

In my experience, I hear the leaders of gay and lesbian organizations willing to, say, work on other issues with the legislator who opposes extending hate-crimes protection to "sexual orientation" because she opposes the idea of hate-crime legislation. At the same time, they may point out the apparent anti-gay bias inherent in someone who supports hate-crimes penalties on the basis of religion but not on the basis of sexual orientation.

But the "homophobe" label tends to be reserved for those who go out of their way to be outspoken against any and every pro-gay political move--folks like Jesse Helms, Robert Dornan, Anita Bryant, Fred Phelps, Porno Pete LaBarbera, Grant Storms, Rick Santorum and the aforementioned Paul Cameron.

Are you saying that the label "homophobic" is always and everywhere inaccurate--that it cannot apply even to the likes of Fred Phelps and his family?
7.25.2007 7:21pm
JM Hanes (mail):
Christian K:

"When I do hear someone refer to gay men or women as a "homosexual" or refer to "homosexuals" as a group, I assume the person is bigoted against gay men and lesbians. "

I think that's unfortunate, really, in part because you're going to end up assuming that there are a whole lot more bigots than there really are, but also because if you do, in fact, make such assumptions regardless of context, aren't you just as likely to be the one committing the injustice?

This is the first time I've come across what is being described as widespread objection to using the word homosexual, even though I'm familiar with a lot of what I might easily have referred to as either gay or homosexual issues being discussed by both gays and straights across the blogosphere. The idea that I should know better, or that I would avoid such use if I weren't a bigot, rests on the apparent expectation that, barring the advice of friends, I ought to have consulted activist GLBT sites or organazations on acceptable usage before joining any conversation or discussion of such topics. It further assumes that I should feel obliged both to police and to alter the expression of my opinions accordingly.

I hope you would agree that it's certainly not my fault if a lot of bigotted people use the term homosexual in offensive ways. I, personally, would have said "homosexual" was a formal, as opposed to clinical, term, where "gay" started out as a label which was not entirely inoffensive itself. Some people may still simply be unsure about using it, although it has sinced gained relatively neutral currency in ordinary conversation, as a replacement for the older term. I notice you distinguish gay men from gays generally, yourself. I'm still using gay incorrectly that way, however, according to activist resources, where it is also gender specific. If I'm using it in place of the collective homosexual, should I assume I'm offending lesbians everywhere? To be entirely correct, it would seem I'm stuck with either using a political acronym, GLBT, which is tough to pronounce, and meaningless to anyone who isn't politically au courant, or spelling out gay-lesbian-bisexual-transgendered every time -- which I don't see much of anybody doing very often.

That's a lot to expect from folks who might only be trying to say they support homosexual marriage, don't you think? Intent can often be difficult to ascertain, but the idea that the word, not the intent, makes the bigot is both perverse and unfair. I believe that most people who aren't bigots will make a reasonable effort to avoid giving gratuitous offense. It seems to me that the underlying issue here is not sensitivity, but politics. It's hard to get more offensive than calling someone a bigot solely on the basis of politically incorrect terminology. In any case, I intend to go on using the word homosexual where it strikes me as appropriate, as well as using gay collectively, as I ordinarily do when saying things like I'm pro-gay marriage. If anyone construes my use of the former as evidence of bigotry, I'm afraid that's really their problem, not mine.
7.25.2007 7:25pm
Randy R. (mail):
There is, of course, quite a bit of alcohol and drug abuse and smoking among gays. Additionally, the suicide rate is higher, and for gay teenagers, suicide is the leading cause of death.

So what do all the gay-bashers do with these facts? The say, see how destructive the 'homosexual lifestyle' is! They want to make it look like gay people choose to be gay, and then this leads to drug abuse and everything else, culminating in death from AIDS or suicide. See what a horrible disgusting lifestyle they are trying to save us from! (They often use the word 'deathstyle.' I kid you not).

But a person who is not out to portray gays as horrible people might ask the question, WHY are drug abuse, smoking and suicides rates so high for gays? The answer, as many studies have shown, is because of the way society treats gays. Many gays are thrown out of their home as teenagers, so living on the streets will lead to a shorter lifespan. Many gay people suffer discrimination, alienation from family and friends, loss of livelihood and so on. We have religion constantly telling us we are worthless and damned to hell. Schools turn a blind eye to the gay kid who gets beat up all the time.

If you have any doubt, I will happily introduce you to the social workers at SMYAL, the Sexual Minority Youth Action League. you will find stories of abuse and discrimation against gay teens that will break even the most homobphobic of hearts. THEN tell me that being gay is a choice!

Some will say, come on Randy, quit the pity party! But facts are facts. Blacks living in inner cities also experience high rates of suicide, drug abuse, smoking, and shorter lifespans, and studies have shown that the stress of discrimination and poverty all contribute to a great degree. So are we supposed to say that being black is a deathstyle too, and we must save black kids from that fate and turn them white? It's the same silly argument.

Every study on the subject has stated that if gay people were treated exactly the same as straight people, all these rates would decline.
7.25.2007 7:31pm
Randy R. (mail):
BTW, there is only one location of SMYAL, and it's located right on Capitol Hill of Washington, DC. If you want to the hell of a gay teenager, I invite you to stop by and visit just once. You will find that this one location is woefully inadeaquate to deal with all the gay teens who have been beaten, abused, thrown out of their house and disowned by good "Christian" people, who are merely doing what their preacher told them in the name of 'family values.'

Okay, enough of the bitterness. Too nice a day!
7.25.2007 7:35pm
Randy R. (mail):
JM Hanes:" I believe that most people who aren't bigots will make a reasonable effort to avoid giving gratuitous offense."

You are, of course, absolutely correct. And most people who say 'homosexual' are not bigots. It grates slightly on my nerves, but I always let it pass -- there are much bigger issue to worry about.

I remember family members as late at the 80s referring to blacks as 'colored people.' This grated on me, and I'm sure blacks wouldn't be too happy. But that was ther preferred term in THEIR day, so it's no big deal. We all try to get along, right?

However, you will find that the likes of Pat Robertson, James Dobson and co will always use the word homosexual. Any person under the age of at least 30 who uses it is almost always using it is in a perjorative way.

Test yourself on this: Read any article on the subject of sexual orientation. You will find that if they consistently use the word 'homosexual' they are against gay rights, and if they use the word gay mostly, they are pro-gay. Just do a search on the internal search engines of magazines, such as the New Republic, The National Review, The Weekly Standard, Washington Monthly, and all of those types. You will find a strong correlation between the words they use and the view on gays.
7.25.2007 7:42pm
Chimaxx (mail):
The Supreme Court, "homosexual" vs. "gay" and Scalia's apparent anti-gay animus: http://www.danpinello.com/Scalia.htm
7.25.2007 7:43pm
Christian K:
JM Hanes:

I need to explain a bit more, I feel. In my day to day life I rarely hear someone use the term "homosexual". Mostly people use "gay", or if being more formal "GLBT". The only time I hear or see people use "homosexual" is when people use the term to rail against equal marriage rights, the current hot topic of the day.

I don't particularly find the term offensive, more clinical than anything really. However I do find that the people who do use "homosexual" are being disparaging rather than empowering to me and those like me.

When I was younger (I am in my early 30's now), I never thought I would see a debate about equal marriage rights for same gender couples. I would have never thought that "my people" would have come so far. I am very confident that I will see it as a reality in my life time, which does bring a smile t