Whenever one of these morality scandals comes up – whether it involves homosexuality, adultery, or being on a list compiled by someone the media calls a “Madam” – it often involves a Republican. Critics love to charge Republicans with hypocrisy – preaching traditional family values to the rest of us by day while trolling bathrooms and pressing sweaty palms to computer keyboards by night.
Whatever explains these other public moral dramas, hypocrisy doesn’t fully capture the GOP’s plainly dysfunctional relationship to homosexuality. Believe it or not, there are plenty of traditional-values Republicans who are not secretly gay. They might be wrong about homosexuality, but they’re not hypocrites.
Yes, there are many prominent Republicans whose private actions are inconsistent with their traditional-values personas. Sen. Larry “I am Not a Gay American” Craig is the latest of them, assuming the various allegations against him are true. Jim West had an aggressively anti-gay record both as a Washington state legislator and as mayor of Spokane, yet cruised for gay sex and anonymously told an online acquaintance that he hated the “sex Nazis” who try to regulate people’s private lives. There are many other examples.
But there are also many closeted gay Republicans not closely associated with the party’s religious right. Mark Foley, of last year's congressional page scandal, was not an anti-gay member of Congress. While he didn’t support everything I wish he had, his rating from national gay-rights groups was usually quite good and I’d take his record on gay issues over many Democrats’.
There’s an entire website devoted to outing (mostly) Republican politicos. That site does not hurt for news and information. Its working list of closeted gay Republicans — whether officeholders, staffers, or party officials — is a very, very long one. I can tell you the website does not even come close to listing all of the gay Republicans working in prominent positions in Washington and elsewhere.
And not nearly all of these gay Republicans are anti-gay, or work directly for anti-gay causes. Many despise the party’s anti-gay rhetoric and actions. They are Republicans because they are pro-life, or support low taxes, or want a strong national defense, or desire an exciting job in public policy, or for any of a hundred other reasons. You could call it hypocrisy to be gay and work for a generally anti-gay political party, regardless of the gay person's own views or what she does within the party to oppose its anti-gay policy positions, but if so, this is surely a watered-down form of the vice.
What unites these cases is not really hypocrisy. It’s two other things. First, nearly all the gay Republicans working in Washington or elsewhere are to one degree or another closeted. Second, at a personal level, very few Republican officials around them care whether someone is gay.
From the top of the party to the bottom, few Republicans personally and viscerally dislike gay people. President Bush has had friends he knew were gay. So has Vice President Cheney. Even the most prominently and vigorously anti-gay Republican, Sen. Rick “Man on Dog” Santorum, had a gay spokesperson whom he defended when his homosexuality became known.
The big, open secret in Republican politics is that everyone knows someone gay these days and very few people – excepting some committed anti-gay activists – really care. It’s one of the things that drives religious conservatives crazy because it makes the party look like it’s not really committed to traditional sexual morality.
So to keep religious conservatives happy the party has done two things. First, it has steadfastly resisted efforts to ease anti-gay discrimination in public policy, even when Republican politicians know better. I can’t tell you how many Republican staffers told me, for example, that their bosses privately opposed the Federal Marriage Amendment but would be voting for it anyway.
Second, to keep the talent it needs and simply to be as humane and decent as politically possible toward particular individuals, the party has come up with its own unwritten common-law code: you can be gay and work here, we don’t care, but don’t talk about it openly and don’t do anything to make it known publicly in the sense that either the media or the party’s religious base might learn of it. It's the GOP's own internal version of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
This uneasy mix of the public and the private is not exactly what I’d call hypocrisy. It’s perhaps better described as a form of ideological schizophrenia: private acceptance welded to public rejection. It’s a very unstable alloy.
For the closeted gay Republican, this alloy means a life of desperation and fear and loneliness, of expressing one's true feelings only in the anonymity of the Internet, of furtive bathroom encounters, of late nights darting in and out of dark bars, hoping not to be seen. It means life without a long-term partner, without real love.
Worst of all, it may mean a life of deceiving a spouse and children. It’s hardly surprising that most of the men caught cruising in parks, bathrooms, and other public places are deeply closeted and often married. They don’t see themselves as having many other options.
Nevertheless, it seems to work until the day you get caught tapping your toe next to a cop. Desperation sets in and you say things that bring everyone much mirth at your expense, like, “I’m not gay, I just have a wide stance.”
For the GOP, this alloy of public rejection and private acceptance means enduring more of these periodic public morality convulsions. How to end it? The private acceptance will continue and, I predict, become even more prevalent as young conservatives comfortable around gay people take over. There will be no purging the party of gays. There is no practical way to purge them, and even if there were, most Republicans would be personally repulsed by such an effort.
These closeted politicians, staffers, and party functionaries will occasionally be found out one way or another and again will come the shock, the pledges to go into rehab, the investigations, the charges of hypocrisy, the schadenfreude from Democrats and libertines, the sense of betrayal from the party’s religious conservatives.
This doesn’t happen to the Democrats because the party’s public and private attitudes toward homosexuality are fully consistent: acceptance of gays. Their homosexuals feel little need to remain closeted (with the recent exception of Jim “I am a Gay American” McGreevey). Notably, past sex scandals involving gay Democrats, like Rep. Barney Frank (with a prostitute) and Rep. Gerry Studds (with a congressional page), occurred some two decades ago, when the party was less accepting and the men themselves were still closeted.
The only practical way out of this for the GOP is to come to the point where its homosexuals no longer feel the need to hide. And that won’t happen until the party’s public philosophy is more closely aligned with its private one. That will be the day when the GOP greets its gay supporters the way Larry Craig, with unintended irony, greeted reporters yesterday at his news conference: “Thank you all very much for coming out today.”
UPDATE: I've re-opened comments after briefly closing them to let a few commenters cool off a bit. Please try to avoid rudeness and stay on the topic of the post. If someone responds poorly or stupidly to something brilliant you say, quietly declare victory and go home rather than repeating yourself or cleverly insulting them. I'll close comments permanently if things veer off again.
Related Posts (on one page):
- The elephant in the room:
- What was Craig's crime?
- Thoughtful Commentary on Senator Craig:
i'd pretty much call what much of the GOP is doing hypocrisy. just because they are hypocrites to advance their political objectives or maintain their base of power doesn't make them any less of one.
I can't tell from the post what "this" refers to. Charges of hypocricy? The liberal Schadenfreude? True.
But is "this" refers to the entire situation of closeted public officials who may be found out in a nasty way, then I don't know that this is true. There are how many openly gay Democrats serving in Congress now? Is this number equal to the number of gay Democrats in Congress? I doubt it.
The outing of a Democratic Senator in this way would likely be a career-killer in any number of states. A former student of mine is a Congressional staffer, works for a Democrats, and does not make his orientation known at the office.
The GOP has a bigger problem, without a doubt. And a little humilty might be in order among the defense-of-marriage crows at this point. But it would be hard for me to imagine a Democratic Member who represents--completely hypothetical follows-- a section of the South Side of Chicago, or East Side Cleveland, coming clean about being gay. The churches are political heavyweights in those areas. And they are not gay-friendly.
Sure there's a difference, but does it matter to those who adopt "anti-gay" positions?
To the "moral position" it's basically true that "gay" = Homosexual = Someone who engages in homosexual activity. (whether or not exclusively)
No one is seriously arguing that homosexual sex should be recriminalized. It's just a non-issue now. Outside of sex, don't gays have the same concerns and issues as heterosexual voters?
1) Being opposed to matrimonial rights and all of the associated civil benefits for homosexuals sounds pretty plausibly "anti-gay" to me, yet you seem to cast it aside like it doesn't matter.
2) There is that lingering issue aboue military service that you conveniently neglect to mention.
It's not a congressional issue, but the Texas GOP platform includes the following:
We believe that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the
family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the
fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country’s founders, and shared by
the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable “alternative” lifestyle in our public
education and policy, nor should “family” be redefined to include homosexual “couples.”
and
We oppose the legalization of sodomy. We demand that Congress exercise its authority granted by the U.S. Constitution to withhold jurisdiction from the federal courts from cases involving sodomy.
That was the first state platform I looked up, some others are likely similar. And that qualifies as "anti-gay" by any definition.
Unless you’re going to relate this to a closeted individual who works for the Texas Republican Party*, it has nothing to do with Carolina’s point.
* And no, that doesn’t necessarily include Texas Republican elected officials who if they are anything like Republicans and Democrats in the other 49 States, really don’t give a rat’s arse what the “party platform” says either.
Carolina: No one is seriously arguing that homosexual sex should be recriminalized.
Texas GOP platform: We oppose the legalization of sodomy.
Is there also a website devoted to outing the people who run the website dedicated to invading the privacy of allegedly gay “Republican politicos.” Names, addresses, places of employment, that sort of thing.
Calling the GOP an "anti-gay party" is the kind of nonsense to be expected from trolls and flamers in the comments section. It's a shame it's coming from a contributor.
And I repeat:
you can find sites that invades the privacy of women who've had abortions, doctors who provide abortion and people who donate to pro-choice groups.
Republicans are rewarded (or, at least, not significantly penalized) for taking anti-gay positions. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the Democratic Party, when it comes to actual legislation, finds it easy to support pro-gay policies. There's still a lot of "triangulation" by the Party going on on these issues. The backlash to the legalization of same-sex marriage in Hawaii, Massachusetts, etc., and the tepid response by Democrats, was surprising to me. Not our finest moment. But I'm still optimistic over the long haul.
To the question of whether criminalization of homosexual conduct is still an issue: Is sodomy still a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice? If so (and I don't know the answer to the question), how many Democrats in Congress have pressed for legislation decriminalizing sodomy in the armed forces?
There is often no use trying to discuss certain issues with people whose commitment to their party reaches a certain level relative to their commitments to other values. The fact that Thorley was equating the idea of outing public officials with providing a road map to violaence and intimidation against private citizens (and thoroughly encouraging the creation of the latter) should be your first hint.
You probably don't know many bisexuals who have remained in long term marriages because they don't let you know they're bisexuals.
Umm, where have you been? Several, very prominent Republicans, including the President of the United States, publicly supported the criminalization of homosexual sex in Texas, and even argued to the United States Supreme Court that it should remain criminal.
I suggest you use this thing they have called "Google" and investigate why Rick Santorum was referred to by Dale in this very post as Rick "man on dog" Santorum.
This is quite typical of right-wing commenters here who try to pretend the GOP does not have a significantly hateful continent in its ranks. But you can ignore my comments, stick your fingers in your ears, and pretend you don't hear me and keep lying to yourself that the GOP is only against affirmative action for gays, and gay marriage.
Funny, I was just thinking, while reading this post, that the GOP's "unwritten law" that you can be gay and work here, we don’t care, but don’t talk about it openly and don’t do anything to make it known publicly sounds an awful lot like the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that was instituted by our last... wait for it... Democratic president. Things haven't improved under the current administration, and today's Democratic candidates are distancing themselves from the 14-year-old policy, making the GOP's current credo look, rightly, outdated. It is my hope that if we have a Democratic president come into office in 2009, we'll see this ugly, destructive policy relegated to the trash heap alongside sodomy laws.
- The answer is yes, but it is only punitively enforceable if there is a (broadly defined) "plus" factor in favor of criminalization (i.e., public sodomy, violating curfew for the purpose of sodomy, sodomy with a superior, sodomy with an inferior, and so forth), according to the most recent CAAF decision I've read. You do not need a plus factor for a non-punitive discharge (i.e., DADT is still the rule of law).
In other words, they publicly advocate one point, while believing something else? Then they are hypocritical, or, as Dale said, ideologically schizophrenic.
K
No. It's what is expected by those of us who actually care about things called facts. The most prominent GOP politician in the United States today -- The President of the United States -- supported the CRIMINALIZATION of private, consensual homosexual conduct. If that is not "anti-gay" then what, pray tell, is????????????
To add to Thorley's points, regardless of what the Texas GOP party platform says, is sodomy a hot issue in Texas politics? Op-eds? Floor debates? Bills being introduced? Of course not. It's a non-issue, as I said.
My point is simply that gay activists have won their war. No one is fighting anymore, except for those who argue civil unions are not enough or those who demand that gays in the military should be able to be open and obvious. In the large scheme of things, these are tiny, tiny issues.
The great culture war over homosexuality has been fought, and the religious right lost. It's over and done.
Ha! The grassroots of the current Republican party is largely the evangelical movement. Getting through the primary process will mean, at least for the next few elections, that the elected officials will have paid homage to "family values". A more tolerant Republican party will arise only when the path to high office does not require a stop at Jim Dobson's office.
What an absurdly misleading statement -- the dadt policy was an improvement on the prior policy of asking and investigating whether people were gay. Repeal of that policy was publicly opposed by all major Republican politicians. What world do you people live in??? Seriously.
Another lie or willfully ignorant statement from Carolina. Please name a major GOP Presidential candidate who supports civil unions. When John McCain said he would support them on Hardball, he had to withdraw his statement a few minutes later.
Regardless, Civil unions are not recognized in almost all states, and several GOP supported referenda illegalized civil unions along with Gay marriage. Again, Carolina, I refer you to Google. Use it before you post and you will stop making yourself look silly.
As others have mentioned, this assertion is absurd.
your point is well taken
"Non-issue"?
A series of lawyers, presumably from various State A.G.s offices, has stood up in front of the SCOTUS, within the last twenty years, and argued: "There is a legitimate state interest in criminalizing certain sexual conduct between consenting adults, which is not trumped by any Constitutional right." BTW This argument clearly appealed, and appeals, to Justice Scalia. I'm guessing that at least some of those folks still hold that same view. If several "someones" had not clearly held the belief that such conduct should be a crime, and that the state should devote taxpayer resources to prosecuting those who engage in it, there would have been nothing for the Court to hear.
This doesn't boggle my mind quite as much as the fact that, during my lifetime, some lawyer from Virgina, also presumably from a State A.G.'s office, stood up in front of the SCOTUS and argued with a straight face, in about 1967, that the state had a legitimate interest in making it a crime for the Lovings to get married, because they were different colors.
r gould-saltman
That is one whole lot of kissing up to the two most important power groups on campus. Don't you have tenure yet?
I agree with a lot of the substance you write. But to say that the GOP's position of "private acceptance welded to public rejection" isn't hypocrisy is like saying a house isn't a dwelling.
I am curious to see how you will find a way to define the word "hypocrisy" that both (1) encompasses most people's understanding of the word while (2) not also encompassing "private acceptance welded to public rejection".
For whatever it's worth, here's a dictionary.com definition of "hypocrisy": a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude. Note the use of the word "pretense" together with "publicly". Sounds an awful lot like "private acceptance welded to public rejection".
Here's one from the Am. Heritage Dictionary (by way of dictionary.com): a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude. Sounds an awful lot like "private acceptance welded to public rejection".
Here are two others, from Worldnet by way of dictionary.com: 1. an expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction
2. insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have Sounds an awful lot like "private acceptance welded to public rejection".
So what is your definition?
2. "As a data point, I know several people who were once married (to opposite sex people) and now are in long-term same sex relationships. They self-identify as gay, not bi."
Self-identification is a convenient, and conveniently vague, data point. If the guy was aroused for a woman in a regular marriage (an essential prerequisite for pregnancy), then he's obviously going to try to rationalize his later choices as much as possible by vaguely saying he "found himself" as gay.
If you can be aroused for a woman even though you later self-identify as gay, that is the very definition of bisexuality, no matter how hard one tries to come up with a rationalization or pseudo-psychological explanation.
Unless the Republicans totally, abjectly surrender to the gay agenda, they will be regarded as "anti-gay" - and probably they'll be called "anti-gay" even if they do, not least because the goalposts for not being anti-gay will probably move.
It is, of course, ironic (or perhaps poetic justice) that in a world where same-sex relationships could be turned into legal marriage (precisely what Craig opposes), both the demand and supply of anonymous bathroom quickies would be significantly lower, which would also reduce the police resources devoted to combating it.
The situation that "caught" Craig is partially one of his own creation.
Larry Craig is the hypocrite, though. Go figure.
Blaahhhh!
Non-responsive. Move to strike.
Is it right to assume that an elected official is or should be the personification of the policy the polity demands?
It is we who make hypocrites of men by presuming an entanglement of the person and the policy--not the men themselves.
Gay couples don't do anything that straight couples don't also do -- unless your sex life is plain vanilla.
One Supreme Court decision decision does not end the debate. See, e.g., Roe v. Wade. While those in favor of gay rights "won" Lawrence v. Texas, that does not mean the war is over, just as it was not over when those in favor of gay rights "lost" Bowers v. Hardwick.
As for "those who argue civil unions are not enough," you might look, for example, to the recent Virginia law that prevented gays from even simulating by contract some of the rights that hetero couples can get by waltzing into the courthouse and asking for a marriage license. You might also look to the laws of dozens of other states that have passed anti-gay marriage or anti-civil union laws or constitutional amendments. I assure you that those initiatives were not pushed by the Democrats.
The question of whether being gay and same-sex relationships will become an accepted part of American society will be decided in the coming decades. Those who are fighting against that result now are invariably republican. In 20 or 30 years, I predict the war will be over, and the Santorums of the world will be remembered with the shame that we now remember openly segregationist politicians from the civil rights era. But for now, there is an anti-gay party, and it is the Republicans.
No one can convince you it's not disgusting any more than you could convince me that lima beans aren't disgusting (which they are ;) ). But I will ask you this:
Presumably anal and oral sex are your items of disgust and unhealthiness. Do they disgust you equally when performed by married heterosexual couples? Are they equally unhealthy? If so, does your disgust carry over into using the law to not give sanction to the relationships in which such behavior takes place? That is, should we prevent heterosexual couples from being legally married if they engage in behavior you call disgusting and unhealthy? If not, why not?
As I assume you're well aware, don't ask, don't tell was a step forward for gay rights in the military at the time Clinton implemented it, and was (arguably) the best he could do under the prevalent political circumstances at the time. So let's not blame Clinton for doing the best he could to improve marginally improve the situation in the face of Republican opposition.
Specifically, it's the Ad Hominem Tu quoque Fallacy. This Fallacy fallaciously asserts that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to consistently act in accordance with that position.
Fallacy usually takes the following form:
A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.
I am utterly amazed that people who are supposed to be intelligent, like Professor Carpenter, keep falling for this silly fallacy.
All of this rests on "gay" being a culturally located identity, rather than a simple synonym homosexual, but if this seems pedantic, consider that it highlights that human sexuality is a group of complex phenomena that can be shaped positively or negatively by societal constraints — a fact which is crucial to some conservative rationales for same-sex marriage.
He forgot the exception: except when it is two (or more) hot chicks.
Homosexual maybe, but most certainly not gayyy!
If you're referring to oral and anal sex, straight people do both regularly. In fact, both are on the rise among young people, particularly those who have pledged to remain "virgins." There is little anyone can do to convince you of what is or isn't disgusting, but with proper precautions both of those activities are no more unhealthy than vaginal intercourse.
As for something that is both disgusting and apparently healthy, you might check out this link regarding how eating your boogers is healthy.
We aren't in a parliamentary debate mode, and your claims about logically fallacy are simply irrelevant to the topic that Dale is actually trying to discuss.
Now that is truly disgusting.
I'll second Oh My Word and add that I wish more people discussed the distinctions between sexual orientation and sexual behavior, and if you want to get really psycho-philosophical, between sexual orientation (as one *actually* is) and sexual identity (as one *thinks* one is - ie a confused teenager before he realizes he's gay)
This is just one more problem with the GOP and general conservative hypocrisy with the issue of homosexuality - because there are a lot of closeted gay or bisexual men, gays or bisexuals have a tendency to think that nearly everyone is like them, when 95%+ of men are not, closeted or otherwise. (Contrary to the "all germans are 'half-a-fag'" crowd, that 95%+ holds true for german and scandinavian men as well.) So they tend to treat everyone as if they were "confused teenagers" or secretly like them when they are not.
It's sort of like the dynamic with alcoholics, they have a tendency to think that everyone cannot control their behavior with alcohol like themselves, so they don't think anyone can handle alcohol. It seems like a failure to realize that everyone is not like them. (This is just an analogy, I'm not endorsing any of the "addiction" theories about sexual orientation.)
No one is arguing that homosexual activity is not wrong because Larry Craig, a critic of homosexuals, does it too. That would be tu quoque. But all of us liberal libertines would say that homosexual activity is just fine whether or not Larry Craig does it. The fact of Craig's hypocrisy is independently amusing, but has nothing to do with any proposition about the morality, or lack thereof, of homosexual behavior, and therefore there's no logical fallacy involved.
Craig may well not be gay. It might instead be the case that he engaged in some “opportunistic homosexuality.” If one looks at it in a Posnerian way, he could have been looking for a substitute for his absent wife and this was a low-cost option. Airport men’s rooms are legendary for this precisely because there’s a large group of traveling men away from spouses/partners of either sex who might choose to engage in a bathroom quickie as an inferior substitute.
Plus, given that he’s a prominent public figure, choosing this particular substitute for married, heterosexual sex makes sense. He wanted something as anonymous as possible so that his identity could not be discovered (hence, the irony of him later flashing his business card when trying to get OUT of the situation). None of the other options available as substitutes for his absent (or uninterested) wife would work: a singles bar (gay or straight) or prostitution (male or female) involved the risk of recognition or a trail of some kind.
So engaging in this particular behavior does not necessarily mean that he’s gay in the sense we normally use the word. He appears to have wanted to engage in a homosexual act, but that need not be the same thing. Would we call prisoners who resort to gay sex in homosocial environments with no other options “gay?” I wouldn’t. He may well BE gay, but on the basis of this incident alone, it's not the only conclusion one can draw.
And everyone, homosexuals included, can Va ya con Dios.
The PC police won't be the only ones calling you homophobic--nearly every reasonable human being will. At least you air your bigotry out in the open.
We don't have to be in "parliamentary debate mode" for the fallacy to apply. Appeals to hypocrisy are STILL fallacious. I find it telling that it's most often folks of the libertine persuasion that like to employ the tactic.
I'll give you an example, a person could go around preaching a message of "Love your Neighbor and be kind to one another", all while secretly being a scourge and engaging in all manner of rudeness.
The message is still valid even if the person preaching it can't/won't live up to it. If you want to disprove the message, you have to attack the message itself, with clear and convincing evidence. Attacking the person delivering it with appeals to hypocrisy only reveals you to be an idiot.
And yet, leftist libertine types who wish to be permitted to engage in all sort of perversion routinely do this when it comes to Republican/Conservatives who fail. Frankly, I am sick of it. The libertines are committing a fallacy, and it's long past time that they start getting called on it.
Thomas Jefferson once said that it was the duty of a representative to vote the conscience of their district, after all, it's the people of the district that they are representing. Thus, a representative who might be personally pro-abortion, might vote in a pro-life manner if they were in a district that was majority pro-life. That's the nature of our system of government.
Last I checked, Craig is in a strongly pro-traditional marriage State.
Which is why Posner is a complete moron. If it wasn't intended to be dead serious, his paper on the economic roots of homosexuality would have been regarded as a Swiftian accomplishment of satire. I wonder what he considers foreplay with his wife--he probably hands her a 20.
No one is arguing that homosexual activity is not wrong because Larry Craig, a critic of homosexuals, does it too. That would be tu quoque. But all of us liberal libertines would say that homosexual activity is just fine whether or not Larry Craig does it. The fact of Craig's hypocrisy is independently amusing, but has nothing to do with any proposition about the morality, or lack thereof, of homosexual behavior, and therefore there's no logical fallacy involved.
Sorry, it's blatantly obvious that the entire motivation of pointing out the failings of Craig and Haggard et el, are an attempt to discredit the message espoused by them. That's Tu Quoque, like it or not.
You just got called on it, and don't like it.
Good job on committing another fallacy. Can you guess which one?
To me this seems like a polarization tactic - you either march in lockstep with the whole social conservative agenda or you are the Marquis de Sade. Plus the term seems to imply someone who would violate someone else's rights for their pleasure, which libertarians are against. Perhaps "sensualist" would be a better term for someone that isn't hung up about consensually partaking in pleasureable activities where no one's rights are violated. But "sensualist" doesn't sound nearly as negative, so I guess its going to be "libertine" until they come up with a more pejorative term.
Moreover, Senator Craig was not victimizing innocents, as the above democrats were. Why does Craig get more press time? Because on the left there are no enemies.
The guy is bisexual, plain and simple. He is attracted to his wife as well as men and has acted on those urges. Whether or not he finds male sex to involve a romantic attachment or not does not change that. He has diverse sexual urges, as do most of us in some form or fashion.
The problem with your reasoning, again, is that I don't really give a damn, for purposes of my own assessment of homosexual activity, whether Larry Craig or Ted Haggard participate in it or not, and I've yet to see anyone make the argument, "See, there's nothing wrong with being gay! Even Larry Craig is gay!" I think the homophobes are wrong whether or not they're also getting blowjobs in the men's room. So, again, you're simply incorrect that a logical fallacy is being committed here.
Ipwnedu50: I can't remember if there's a fancy Latin name for this or not, but maybe the person you're attempting to rebut sincerely thinks you're wrong. Attributing feelings to an antagonist to strengthen your argument is pretty noxious when you don't have much if any evidence.
You must be a lawyer. If you read my post you will realize that I said, in so many words, that the law ought to stay out of it. Just as I am against abortion, I don't believe the government out to be involved in the question of homosexuality or abortion. Lawyers think all problems are best solved by another law, or twisting an existing one. With or without laws it IS disgusting and unhealthy.
DJR
Yeah, thanks to Monica Lewinsky! And my god man, what kind of surfing are you doing to find that link? Get some help.
JFThomasThat of course is perfectly OK with me! :)
.
So I suppose this means it doesn't matter what perversions Craig or any other champion of "traditional family values" performs in public restrooms or with prostitutes, or how depraved his private life is, as long as his voting record is in line with your beliefs, he has your vote? He could show up stoned out of his mind with a hooker on each arm for a vote on the FMA and as long as he voted for it, you would overlook his personal failings.
Or is my logic flawed?
What rights should homosexuals be denied, then?
What the hell had happened to you.
Got thoroughly brainwashed by Trotskyites again?
Or is it still affects from the old country lingering in your brain?
Well, in some states they are prohibited from adoption and it can make custody of natural children problematic. In some places being gay is enough to have a parent declared unfit. Many of the automatic rights and inheritance rights that are granted to married couples require extensive and expensive legal manuevering for gay couples (and may even be impossible). So to say that they aren't denied rights is simply untrue.
This reminds me of the people who claim to have gaydar. They claim to be able to spot a gay by some special talent. Unfortunately, they don't know how well it works unles they have a sample of gays, try their gaydar on the sample, and then examine the results.
So, I would ask DC how he knows Dems feel little need to remain closeted unless he has knowledge of the full scope of gay Dems? Where did he get a list of all gay Dems? Is it reasonable to think a gay Dem might have a reason other then his party's platform to remain closeted?
they aren't denied any rights now-they can marry individuals of the opposite sex, just like anyone else.
"No one is denied any rights now - everyone can marry individuals of the same race."
That was the argument of some on the losing side in Loving v. Virginia. I'd be curious to understand how you see the difference.
The problem, of course, is that gays and lesbians can't do what heterosexuals can: marry the person they love.
We are not making appeals to hypocrisy...someone who seems so well versed in logic should be able to figure that out. liberals are not saying gays should have equal rights because those hypocritical family values conservatives have gay sex also. we are saying that gays should have equals and are calling conservatives hypocritcal because there actions with regards to homosexuality is the exact definition of hypocrisy. the "homosexuality is wrong" argument is absurd regardless of the actions of conservatives and counter arguments are not based on conservative hypocrisy...that's just icing on the cake.
I find it telling that it's most often folks of the libertine persuasion that like to employ the tactic.
hmm...so not only are you false (this board is evidence to the contrary) but you are committing the exact same fallacy that you accuse the "libertines" of committing. you're not attacking the message your attacking the messenger.
Attacking the person delivering it with appeals to hypocrisy only reveals you to be an idiot....And yet, leftist libertine types who wish to be permitted to engage in all sort of perversion routinely do this when it comes to Republican/Conservatives who fail.
all again you commit the very fallacy you are complaining of. when are you going to call yourself on it and admit that you are an idiot?
Guest101 offered a logical and to my mind quite reasonable rebuttal to your argument. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like your unsubstantiated response was to call him a liar. If that's your idea of "logic," I'll pass, thank you.
Who said it has to be accepted? Sex in public is icky.
But I was hoping John425 would answer the question.
preferredequal status that the homosexual activists want--but we don't hate homosexuals.Fixed. And absurd.
The term is "Doublethink." It's an important part of the
IngsocRepublican system.A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.
"...I don't believe the government out to be involved in the question of homosexuality or abortion."
So that would mean that if the government is silent then both abortion and same-sex marriage are ok. (Presumably "marriage" would not be a state-sanctioned status.) Right? Is that what you are saying?
You think his voters will see it that way?
And I doubt his stump speeches all began with, "My constituents believe that . . ."
These were his stated beliefs and his constituents voted for him because they believed his beliefs aligned with theirs. They didn't vote for him because they thought he'd vote how they wanted him to, whether or not he agreed with it or not.
One could note that the feminists all leaped to the defense of Bill Clinton, despite his dubious "private life".
But that aside, no, I don't care about the private life of a politician so long as he votes the way I want him to. What I hired him to do is represent my interests, not act as an shining examplar of my preferred behaviors.
One could note this but they would be guilty of gross exaggeration.
The behavior that Craig apparently was looking for (what other men have testified they engaged in with him) is practiced by probably around 90% of the heterosexual population and, while it does carry some health risks, has a very low (some say impossible, but I think that goes too far) risk of HIV transmission.
And Jefferson had a couple skeletons in his closet that I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted his constituents to find out about (I won't use the the more appropriate but racially offense phrase).
then why do you have no problem with courts striking down gun control laws with no more constitution basis than "i want to own my 12 guns without registering them". ohhh...that's right, your a hypocrite and a political hack. makes sense.
At least before you get married ;)
Hopefully Sanatorium will, one day in the future, have the grace and good sense to apologize, like Byrd has numerous times, for his beliefs and acts.
Heh heh. Okay I fell for the troll, congratulations. For those still arguing with IpwnedU I suggest you let him take a bow and desist.
I think you're slicing it a bit thin to say there's any real daylight between hypocrisy and what you call "ideological schizophrenia." Would you call it ideological schizophrenia for a member of a restricted country club to sneak his blond Jewish or light-skinned African-American friends onto the golf course, provided they promise to keep their voices down? I can think of a lot of words for that, but ideological and schizophrenia are not among them.
Now there are the words of a bigot. [Insert group here] can't accept how good they have it. They should just shut up and be glad we are not rounding them up and putting them in camps.
True, it's not really, it's certainly not primarily or critically, hypocrisy. If it is then "hypocrisy" is defined so loosely that anyone who holds any elevated standard whatsoever is guilty of hypocrisy. By such an implied standard the only way to avoid hypocrisy is to be a libertine or nihilist, to be dissolute - and further to give legal, enforceable sanction to such non-standards. I think speed limits are a good idea; I have violated speed limits. Ergo, speed limits should be abolished?
Tolerance and not wanting to institute severe or legal sanctions against homosexuality is not at all the same thing as applauding and more positively sanctioning every agenda the homosexual lobby wishes to institute via legislatures, executives and, most prominently and most critically, judiciaries. Judiciaries have far fewer checks and balances than the other two branches of govt., thus they are more susceptible to manipulations and interest groups that can result in immediate, legally sanctioned, societal impact.
Those are facts. They are facts that pertain to definitions and to societal and legal standards and the institutions tasked with maintaining those standards, they are not mere opinion.
But the homosexual lobby, which is politically sophisticated and often is highly aggressive, doesn't wish to admit of those definitions, distinctions, standards and institutional roles. Instead, they prefer to enjoy the schadenfreude together with the social/political and institutional leverage the charge of "hypocrisy" affords.
DC's attempt in the primary post is little or nothing more than a subspecies of those same outlooks and tactics. Whether or not distinctions and standards are warranted is a valid debate, a debate that all members of society should be admitted to partake in and have their input weighed in the balance. But simply because some advocates and allies violate those standards and simply because most all advocates are broadly tolerant of those who violate those distinctions - whether it's speed limits or some far more complex subject - does not imply the distinction/standard itself should be abolished.
homosexuals simply can't accept how good they have it in this country-hence, the strained comparisons to the civil rights movement.
Actually, the "they don't know how good they have it" bit sounds an awful lot like an argument from the Civil Rights movement too, just the other side.
maybe that plays well on campus but it doesn't reflect reality. again, do we have to accept gay cruising for the Republican party to advance?
Way to change the subject. Sex in public bathrooms is a problem gay or straight. The issue is about excluding same-sex couples from the protection of the law.
At minimum, GLBTs should be actively opposed to radical Islam, and support all efforts to destroy it
This contention is of course absurd. Judiciaries are generally less, not more susceptible to the manipulations of interest groups which is precisely why Court decisions sometimes piss people off so much. But a functioning and independent judiciary (and ours mostly is) is more constrained in its actions than either of the other branches.
You are actually committing another Fallacy, this time the "Straw Man" Fallacy. I didn't say that anyone made the argument that you are attempting to construct: ("See, there's nothing wrong with being gay! Even Larry Craig is gay!")
I said that Homosexuals and their allies are using the failures of Haggard and Craig in an attempt to discredit the message that they espouse.
There is a wide degree of difference between: "See, there's nothing wrong with being gay! Even Larry Craig is gay!"
And
"HA HA! These homophobe bigots are hypocritical and can't even live up to their own message."
And you can deny doing the latter all you want, but it's transparently obvious that the latter is what the entire Ted Haggard, Larry Craig feeding frenzy is all about.
In-so-far as the validity of Haggard or Craig's message is not affected by their own personal failings you are correct.
Which of course is my point. The people who espouse the Tu Quoque argument fail to recognize that attacking the messenger isn't a logically valid way to attack a message.
Or is my logic flawed?
Yes, your logic is flawed.
For at least one of them, "gaydar" really means "Boy, HE'S cute!"
"At minimum?" And what should their politics be on a good day?
It's one thing to argue that it's in the self-preservation interest of GLBT's to oppose radical Islam. But turning that into a normative admonition is the kind of collectivist politics anti-gay activists here and elsewhere criticize GLBT activists for practicing.
The behavior that Craig apparently was looking for (what other men have testified they engaged in with him) is practiced by probably around 90% of the heterosexual population
At least before you get married ;)"
Well, I officially proclaim this the POST OF THE DAY!!
The other noteworthy angle on these types of stories is that many, if not most, GOP members usually support the resignation or even defeat of GOP members who are outed in this manner. Is the GOP support for such resignation or defeat anti-gay? If not, why not and if so, why doesn't the gay community rise to the defense of the outed member or condemn the calls for resignation or defeat?
Here is another angle: are outings generally considered anti-gay or are they generally considered okay and newsworthy regardless of party affiliation? What is the threshold for the mainstream press to participate in the outing of a gay Dem officeholder? (Anti-gay voting record? Criminal charges? Allegations in divorce proceedings? Persistent rumors? Actual knowledge? Some combination of the above?) It is hard to determine for Dems, but a fairly low threshold seems to be developing for GOP outings. On its face, it would appear that gay GOP members would be well served by converting to Dems to take advantage of more flexible rules and a bit more protection.
The right to leave my estate to my partner whether or not my family objects
The right to visit him in the hospital whether or not his family objects
The right to make medical decisions on his behalf if necessary whether or not his family objects
And the right to have these be the default options.
Is that enough? Yes, I know, these things can be duplicated legally (although maybe not in Virginia), but wills can be challenged, and hospitals can choose to ignore medical powers of attorney and other documents (especially if family members are nearby).
And while it's true Pres. Bush said he didn't object to civil unions, he also supported the original version of the FMA that would have banned civil unions as well as marriage. In this case, I think actions speak louder than words.
Of course you are. There would be absolutely no other reason to create the media circus that the Ted Haggard event created if it were not to make an appeal to hypocrisy. It served no other purpose. Of course you probably already knew that.
You can deny making appeals to hypocrisy, but you are doing it.
liberals are not saying gays should have equal rights because those hypocritical family values conservatives have gay sex also.
Straw man. No one suggested this was an argument that anyone was making. Read the Fallacy again:
A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.
we are saying that gays should have equals and are calling conservatives hypocritcal because there actions with regards to homosexuality is the exact definition of hypocrisy.
By making an appeal to hypocrisy, you by definition commit the Fallacy I pointed out.
the "homosexuality is wrong" argument is absurd regardless of the actions of conservatives and counter arguments are not based on conservative hypocrisy...that's just icing on the cake.
If your first point was correct, there would be no need to do the latter.
Hardly, this board, and many other libertarian leaning boards are evidence that there are appeals to hypocrisy coming from those who seek moral anarchy.
but you are committing the exact same fallacy that you accuse the "libertines" of committing. you're not attacking the message your attacking the messenger.
Hardly. I didn't say that libertines/libertarians are wrong because they are libertarians/libertines. I said that they are committing a logical fallacy by appealing to hypocrisy as a tool in the attempt to discredit the traditional values message.
all again you commit the very fallacy you are complaining of.
Again, you are mistaken. Pointing out that a particular group tends to engage in a behavior is not saying that the group is wrong because they are members of that particular group. I am pointing out that people from a particular group tend to be the ones making the appeal to hypocrisy when it comes to Haggard, Craig, Et el.
when are you going to call yourself on it and admit that you are an idiot?
I won't do that, I do not wish to take your title from you. :)
Have sex with any consenting adult - go for it. But to support policies, or identify with political activities that don't support the destruction of radical Islam - the greatest threat to Western Civ, IMHO - is self-destructive.
Did I miss the post where someone said gays are being treated exactly like blacks were in the south?
Opposition to affirmative action is anti-black.
Opposition to welfare is anti-poor.
Opposition to socialized medicine is anti-affordable health care.
Opposition to gay marriage is anti-gay.
Opposition to the amnesty for illegals is anti-immigrant.
Opposition to increased minimum wage is anti-worker.
Opposition to subsidized abortion on demand is anti-woman.
Opposition to massive intrusive government policies aimed at rolling back global warming is anti-environment.
Opposition to terrorism is anti-Islam.
Opposition to stem cells is anti-science.
In other words, whoever opposes whatever liberals want to impose on us today is against the people for whom the proposed policy is supposedly intended to assist as if there is no other possible reason to be oppose to proposed policy other than some personal enmity towards that group...which is, of course, totally absurd. These accusations exist to allow the liberals to demagogue these issues while silencing opposition to the proposals.
So when liberals scream anti-this or that take it with a grain of salt. that's just hysteria and insults that take the place of actual arguments.
True. Because Haggard and Craig have taken a moral stance on homosexuality. Homosexuality is not wrong in the way that speeding is wrong, bad but something we all do because we are in a hurry or because we are not paying attention. Homosexuality is a perversion entered into of someone's own free will and is a deviant lifestyle that is destructive of the self, family and the very fabric of society. For Haggard and Craig to take a moral stance against homosexuality while simultaneously practicing the very acts that they publically declare are not fully controllable and unnatural but also a threat to society as a whole, is the height of hypocrisy. I don't see where the logical fallacy is at all. It directly contradicts everything they claim to believe in and advocate. They are walking proof that homosexuality is not a choice, that, for them at least, their sexual desires, can not be controlled, and even to a lesser extent, that homosexuals can lead an otherwise "normal" life.
Red hair is also outside the norm, no equal rights for them either. Interracial marriages are still much less common/normal than intraracial ones, so none of them either.
Ipwnedu50, help me out here because you remember these terms of art better than I do. What do you call the logical fallacy of using empty rhetoric like "transparently obvious" when logic would require actual authority?
Now that I read my post, this is apparently Craig's defense.
your ability at self delusion is amazing...so amazing in fact that i find your posts hilarious. please keep them coming...the enjoyment i get from laughing at you is a pleasing distraction from my studies