In late March of 2006, the journalistic echo chamber quickly spread the image of drunken, disorderly, publicly urinating lacrosse thugs around the world. It began with an appallingly biased five-column, front-page March 25 article in the Raleigh News & Observer. The headline -- “Dancer Gives Details of Ordeal” -- conspicuously omitted the word “alleged.” So did the subhead, “A Night of Racial Slurs, Growing Fear, and Finally, Sexual Violence.” False. As was much of the coverage in the Durham Herald-Sun.
Nifong whipped the national media into a feeding frenzy with his assertions on March 27 and thereafter that the lacrosse players were clearly guilty of raping the “victim,” of pounding her with racial slurs, and of forming a “wall of silence” to cover it up.
Of course, it was understandable that in the early days reporters and others would wonder: Why would a woman make up such a charge? And why would a prosecutor embrace it so confidently unless he had the evidence to prove it? So the initial coverage was bound to highlight Nifong’s charges.
Far less understandable was the sparse coverage of the four captains’ public statement on March 28 that the rape charge “is totally and transparently false”; that the “team has cooperated with the police” and “provided authorities with DNA samples”; and that “the DNA results will demonstrate that these allegations are absolutely false.”
For a defense lawyer to allow such a prediction unless certain it would prove out would court professional suicide. This put careful journalists on notice not only of the claim of innocence but also of defense lawyers’ confidence -- after grilling the lacrosse players and investigating other evidence -- that the DNA would set them free.
USA Today ignored the statement entirely in a March 30 article that, instead, stressed that “the flier being distributed outside Duke’s student union Wednesday night looked like a wanted poster: 40 faces of young men, smiling smugly for the camera.” Reporter Sal Ruibal reached out for a gratuitously pejorative adverb to describe a bunch of kids smiling for their official photos.
Chimed in columnist Christine Brennan: The lacrosse players were “giving us all a whole new definition of the word teamwork. ...Perhaps if no one is found guilty of any criminal activity in this unseemly affair, the collective silence of the Blue Devils someday will be seen as admirable. For now, though, the sports world’s vaunted concept of team is reaching a frightening extreme.”
In this atmosphere, The New York Times initially stood out for its reasonably balanced coverage. The first Times reporter to conduct detailed interviewing about the evidence in the rape case was sportswriter Joe Drape, who authored or coauthored articles that appeared on March 29, March 30, and March 31. In each article, he quoted Nifong but also presented a defense viewpoint.
Drape quoted Durham defense lawyer Bill Thomas providing an unanswerable reply to Nifong’s taunts: “Everyone asks why these young men have not come forward. It’s because no one was in the bathroom with the complainant. No one was alone with her. This didn’t happen. They have no information to come forward with.”
The more Drape pushed, the more he came to believe that Mangum was not credible and her rape charge was probably false. Encouraged, Bill Thomas provided all the evidence of innocence then in his possession to the Times reporter, expecting a great article. But in early April Drape called Thomas and said there would be no article because he was “having problems with the editors.”
And soon after Drape privately told people at Duke -- and, presumably, at the Times -- that this looked like a hoax, his byline disappeared from the Duke lacrosse story. The word among people at Duke and defense supporters, including one who later ran into Drape at a race track, was that the editors wanted a more pro-prosecution line. They also wanted to stress the race-sex-class angle without dwelling on evidence of innocence. They got what they wanted from Drape’s replacement, Duff Wilson, whose reporting would become a journalistic laughingstock by summer, and other reporters including Rick Lyman.
Times editors also got what they wanted from sports columnist Selena Roberts. Her March 31 commentary, “Bonded in Barbarity,” seethed hatred for “a group of privileged players of fine pedigree entangled in a night that threatens to belie their social standing as human beings.” Virtually presuming guilt, Roberts parroted already-disproved prosecution claims that all team members had observed a “code of silence.” She likened team members to “drug dealers and gang members engaged in an anti-snitch campaign.”
Roberts also took a swipe at Duke itself: “At the intersection of entitlement and enablement, there is Duke University, virtuous on the outside, debauched on the inside.. . . Does President Brodhead dare to confront the culture behind the lacrosse team’s code of silence or would he fear being ridiculed as a snitch?” The message was clear (and soon heeded by Duke President Richard Brodhead): Lynch the privileged white boys. And due process be damned.
Despite the passionate commitment to “diversity” and trashing of “privilege” in her Duke columns, Roberts herself lived a rather privileged life, with a home in Westport, Connecticut, a bastion of rich whiteness. Hypocrisy, perhaps?
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In other words, apparently writers for the NYT do not even read their own newspaper. So much for the "Newspaper of Record." It now is the "Newspaper of Walter Duranty, Jayson Blair, Judith Miller, and The Duke Hoax."
Academia is becoming a most unfriendly place for males, especially white ones.
Quite the contrary -- a defense lawyer has essentially no disincentives to making false claims of innocence. Happens all the time.
The whole basis of the article credited Officer Gottleib's months later straight from memory account which countered the initial report from another officer that was taken shortly after the hoaxed incident.
Anyone remotely interested with the truth would have been a bit wary of how the "new report" magically matched up with the named defendants, but Duffster bought it hook, line and sinker. After all, "Sergeant Gottlieb, 43, is by far the more experienced" of the officers.
For a defense lawyer to allow such a prediction unless certain it would prove out would court professional suicide.
Working in criminal law, I've seen numerous defense attorneys making such confident assertions that are later proved 100% false when the DNA results come back. On a national scale, we've seen it when the Innocence Projects latch onto their latest example and proclaim that the DNA results will absolutely prove that an innocent man was convicted/executed . . . and then conveniently fall silent when the results come in and positively inculpate their client. I hardly think these assertions amount to "professional suicide" if not true. It's more just zealous representation.
Christine Brennan of USA TODAY, to her credit, has spoken publicly about how irresponsible the coverage was. She told Howard Kurtz on CNN that it was "an awful performance, an embarrassing time, I think, for journalism...I think some people lost their minds in this story." That includes, presumably, herself.
Other journalists have stepped forward to offer professional contrition for their recklessness and journalism failings. Here, for instance, is what Brian Ettkin at the Albany Times-Union wrote recently:
------
By BRIAN ETTKIN
First published: Thursday, August 9, 2007
This one bothers me the most, because it mattered the most. It wasn't whiffing on a game prediction or misjudging a trade or even calling for the firing of a coach who deserved to be defended.
It was my rush to judgment in the Duke lacrosse case.
I called 47 Duke lacrosse players cowards "standing behind team sports' code of silence -- what happens in the locker room stays in the locker room, and what happens after hours stays in the locker room, too ..." for following their lawyers' counsel and declining to tell police what happened the night an exotic dancer alleged she was gang-raped at a team party.
I wrote they were "shielding teammates when they should be seeking justice" and that "invoking a code of silence ... strongly suggests they want the truth not to be known."
From the team's lack of cooperation with police I speciously inferred guilt.
I was naive. I never imagined the county district attorney would behave unlawfully and be found guilty of fraud, dishonesty, deceit; of stating falsehoods before a judge; of lying about and withholding exculpatory DNA evidence.
I was wrong.
-----------------------
Journalists demand openness, accountability and professional responsibility from the subjects they cover. They ought to live up to those same standards themselves -- and the New York Times is long overdue in accounting for their terrible misconduct on this story.
These posts are interesting, but some links would help validate them.
Rape allegations cast pall at Duke
And soon after Drape privately told people at Duke -- and, presumably, at the Times -- that this looked like a hoax, his byline disappeared from the Duke lacrosse story. The word among people at Duke and defense supporters, including one who later ran into Drape at a race track, was that the editors wanted a more pro-prosecution line. They also wanted to stress the race-sex-class angle without dwelling on evidence of innocence.
This sounds to me like "malice" and "reckless disregard for the truth," but then I'm not a lawyer. But some people on this board are.
If one were to find records or testimony that supported the "word among people" that the "editors wanted a more pro-prosecution line ... without dwelling on evidence of innocence" would the NYT be at risk for a successful libel suit?
As the link notes, the photos were from the athletic department's web page. The tone of the article suggested that the reporter saw nothing wrong with the construction of what amounted to a vigilante poster.
On the defense lawyers:
The key attorneys in this case (Wade Smith, Joe Cheshire) were among the best of the state, and had maintained their standing in large part because of their reputation for integrity even among those who opposed them. For them to have boldly claimed no DNA and then a week later reversed themselves would have badly tarnished their reputations.
But let’s face it, this case is not really about a rogue prosecutor, or a compromised newspaper, it’s all about identity group politics. Brutal rape-murders of white people by blacks don’t get much publicity. The major media relegates such incidents to “local news” with no national interest. But even an obvious hoax about a white-black rape merits national, even international attention.
The interesting thing I learned is that southern blacks enjoy lynching northerners just much as as sourthern whites do.
Weather their definition of "better job" meant "more pandering to the narrative" to exclusion of other concerns, there is no way to tell.
However, the NYT has had the opportunity to correct their reporting and declined it, AFAIK.
Here's what the NYT's own ethics manual states:
http://www.nytco.com/press/ethics.html#A
"As journalists we treat our readers, viewers, listeners and online users as fairly and openly as possible. Whatever the medium, we tell our audiences the complete, unvarnished truth as best we can learn it. We correct our errors explicitly as soon as we become aware of them. We do not wait for someone to request a correction. We publish corrections in a prominent and consistent location or broadcast time slot."
Either Drape and Wilson have the integrity to stand behind those words and their own reporting or they don't. But they should be confronted with those questions point-blank -- just as they would do to sources on the other side of their pens.
I should hasten to add that no one has done a more vigilant and tenacious job on critiquing press coverage of this case than Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson.
Who will ask the questions, if not the media themselves?
In the first months, the story was under the control of Sports Editor Tom Jolly.
Here was his analysis from April 2006: “I’m very comfortable with our coverage. From the beginning, we’ve felt this story had two main elements: one was the allegation of rape; the other was the general behavior of a high-level sports team at a prestigious university.”
Note the idea that the story might be prosecutorial misconduct, or rush to judgment by faculty activists, didn't even appear on his radar screen.
Covering the Duke Lacrosse Team Case
One of the many failures of the above-cited historian's reporting on the hoax is his failure to address the issue of punishment for false accusers. Can I be blunt here? "False accusers" are the scum of the earth, arguably more despicable than rapists. Wait a minute: they are rapists; they rape people's reputations--their very souls.
False accusers should be subject to felony sanctions, with punishments just as severe as those given to rapists.
Plus, she'd be a victim of The Man and all the usual suspects would be in the streets.
Who needs it? Sooner or later, probably sooner, the fate common to her trade will catch up to her and the investigation will be for her murderer. Or she'll no longer be marketable.
No prosecutor would take her word for the time of day, should she actually have any idea of the time of day.
While I don't think we should let people get away with things just because their judgment was impaired while doing so (c.f. drunk driving), I don't see the point in trying to apply any significant pressure to her.
Yes, fake rape claims are extremely dangerous, and I think the media is far too willing to believe them. We should all be more aware of them and the extreme damage they can cause to entirely innocent people.
However, pushing to hard on this case can backfire on that cause, if the get-tough-on-false-accusers crowd is seen as picking on Mangum. Tawany Brawley would be a much better poster child, since she seems to have acted very deliberately and purposefully in her accusations.
It's not a racial issue; false accusers are extant across races and classes, although I'd guess that the usual suspects (see Crystal Mangum) are more likeky to commit this type of crime. If this crime is taken seriously by society, the thugs will most likely be be less inclined to commit it. Do you agree?
I find it bizarre that such a vile crime is not considered a felony in US.
While I don't think we should let people get away with things just because their judgment was impaired while doing so (c.f. drunk driving), I don't see the point in trying to apply any significant pressure to her. "
so what? if the rape HAD occurred, and the perps HAD been stoned, would it be less evil because their judgment was "impaired". would there be no point in applying any 'significant pressure' on some stoned guys who committed rape.
"However, pushing to hard on this case can backfire on that cause, if the get-tough-on-false-accusers crowd is seen as picking on Mangum. Tawany Brawley would be a much better poster child, since she seems to have acted very deliberately and purposefully in her accusations"
and if we push too hard on the real rapes, that could backfire on the cause.
cmon.
rape is an awful crime.
making a false report of rape is arguably just as awful.
consider the hell that these men went through because she lied.
excusing the evilness of mangum is arguably as bad as excusing a rapist itself.
the worst part of your post is "picking" on mangum.
it's not "picking on" somebody to hold them accountable for their crimes. i am pretty libertarian i'm pro-drug decrim, and generally against the prosecution of "victimless" crimes. this, like rape itself, was anything but. it was a vicious, evil act, that singled (or tripled) out 3 innocents and placed them in hell. just like... rape.
people who falsely accuse others of crimes, especially terrible ones like rape, are not being "picked on" when we hold them accountable. but of course, the politically correct pressure and the excuse making means she won't be. not in the media (i'm still waiting for the cover photos of mangum to be posted just like the "rapists") or the criminal justice system.
mangum had umpteen chances to retract her statements. she didn't. she was doing it (presumably) to get back at some people she didn't like (see the whole issue about payment, etc.) and to get the police off HER back (since she was about to be detoxed for public drunkenness when she began her fairy tale spinning)
sure. same could be said for rapists. why bother prosecuting them? sooner or later, fate catches up. a victim's husband or brother shoots them, or an armed victim does it herself. why bother?
"No prosecutor would take her word for the time of day, should she actually have any idea of the time of day"
again, so what? what about justice? what about punishment?
maybe i am alone here, but i find false accusations of rape to be incredibly evil crimes. right up there with rape.
this is not an example of an innocent being "caught in the wrong place at the wrong time", etc. which unfortunately happens to some people. it's a matter of being singled out by a liar and forced to go through hell based on her statements, her picking them out, etc.
i have no more sympathy towards false accusers of rape, then i do towards rapists. it kind of saddens me that so many people think it's not a big deal, and her losing her credibility is somehow justice
Point is, you can't prosecute somebody who can't string a sentence together, and with her record of self-destructive, irrational behavior. The best she'd get is some kind of not guilty by reason of ... I don't know, idiocy, mental impairment. And at this point, too, we don't know that she actually insisted on having been raped. It appears it was suggested to her (while possibly under the influence of various meds), after which it continued to be "suggested" to her by Nifong and crew. Given the suspect nature of the evidence, anyway, the defense could make a good case that the whole thing was ginned up by Nifong and she was faked into signing it and pretending it was true.
My point is that she is so flaky that, in conjunction with the details of the act, she's practically immune from law enforcement, at least as regards this issue.
which is nowhere "in evidence" so to speak. she's a junios college student. she's a mother. what evidence do you have that she can't string a sentence together? it's hyperbole, it's unsupported, etc.
"The best she'd get is some kind of not guilty by reason of ... I don't know, idiocy, mental impairment"
and you know this how? i've been involved in literally hundreds of court cases. and this goes against my experience, my training, and my conversations without prosecutors. there is a standard beyond which people are not (generally) culpable. nowhere has anybody shown she is anywhere NEAR this standard.
she is not practically immune from law enforcement. i've seen no specific facts that show she is 1) legally insane 2) or severely retarded.
do you actually have reason to believe this?
your point is not supported by evidence. in short, it's rubbish.
fwiw, i had a case not long ago where a woman got a conviction for burglary, felony threats, and theft. and she was a person who routinely (and yes, i put this in my report) made some very wacky statements, and is routinely viewed (rightly so) by officers as a complete froooot loop. it doesn't follow that she did not meet the standards of criminal culpability.
and nifong didn't suggest JACK to her. he never interviewed her. get the facts, THEN form an opinion. try, at least.
If you diagram my sentence, you'll see that I'm not accusing anyone of "picking" on Mangum.
Rather, I'm telling you that significant numbers of moderates (that you want to convert to your cause) will see you that way. It may not be right. It may not be proper. But that's the way it is.
It's a pretty basic concept of law that, when trying to get a judge to overturn a law, that you pick the best possible situation for yourself.
I ask you: is this the best possible situation to try and make a point about false rape accusers?
You have to reflect on the situation as it is. Which is that what you would usually take as gospel--the evidence gathered in the investigation--can be dismissed simply by saying "Nifong, Wilson, Gottleib".
Mangum, with her history of stealing at least one car, making a really screwy rape charge earlier, trying to run down a cop, and so forth, is not just like your recent case where somebody makes nutty allegations. This woman is nucking futz.
But if you would like to try her, see if you can get a visiting prosecutor gig. And when you start quoting the DPD's files, you'll get a bigger laugh than Jay Leno. "She said what? Prove it." "I've got the DPD investigation right here." What a hoot.
Now, other false accusations.... Hang'em. This one. Best of luck.
Rather, I'm telling you that significant numbers of moderates (that you want to convert to your cause) will see you that way. It may not be right. It may not be proper. But that's the way it is. "
i don't care how moderates will see it. i care about (lord forbid) justice. and rule of law. that is yet another edifice of political correctness. we worry about how something will make others feel, vs. whether it is right or wrong.
"I ask you: is this the best possible situation to try and make a point about false rape accusers?"
certainly, it's not. but i don't want mangum prosecuted to make a point. i want mangum prosecuted because i seek JUSTICE.
why is that so difficult. she committed a horrid crime. if there is some evidence out there that she is mentally unstable enough to make her "unprosecutable" then i'd like to see it. if not, she should be tried for her heinous crime. and if that makes people "feel" bad - too bad. it's not about making points. it's about seeking justice
how much time have you spent in criminal prosecutions? really. so WHAT? that is not (in the grand scheme of criminal behavior) at all unusual. again, i have seen people who have done FAR FAR nuttier things who were successfully prosecuted. like i said, in the case i mentioned this woman repeatedly claimed people were poisoning her food, and putting irritants in her cosmetics. she was pretty l00ny, but she was still able to form intent and be found guilty. for pete's sake, jeffrey dahmer stored bodyparts and ATE them. you have this totally unrealistic idea of what it means to be criminally insane. again, i have seen behavior in mangum that is not AT ALL unusual in regards to the kinds of stuff i see criminals pull all the time. really.
another example. i had a guy who assaulted his girlfriend cause she was on the pill. this upset him because she was insulting him by not wanting to bear his child. so, he beat the #$R%#$ out of her. THEN, he grabbed a knife and chopped off his little finger. he waved it in her face and went running into the street. my partner had the guy at gunpoint. the guy THREW (lol) the finger at my partner. that's pretty wacked stuff. was he convicted of domestic violence assault? yes.
get a sense of perspective. i have seen no evidence that mangum is mentally defective TO THE EXTENT that she is "un-prosecutable". the stuff you bring up is rather mundane and unusual for criminals.
there's a million stories in the naked city. many far far more wacked than mangum.
If the NYT's "editors recognize the need to exercise special care in publishing information about a person who claims to be the victim of a sex crime," why don't those same editors recognize the need to exercise at least some care in publishing information about a person accused of committing a sex crime? What bearing did Finnerty's prior run-in with the law after a fight have on the likelihood that he sexually assaulted his accuser? Calame thinks the NYT's only mistake there was to give it too much space. On the other hand, with the accuser's identity shielded, why shouldn't the NYT have published anything and everything reflecting on the accuser's credibility, since her credibility was so fundamental an issue?
If perchance it was all fabrication, as it turned out to be, and there was little eyewitness information of a crime that didn't occur to volunteer, then how could there be reason for concern(?) about a "code of silence"? If silence doesn't always mean assent, why should the provision of little eyewitness information of an alleged crime be seen as reason for Roberts' concern?
Incredible. Even if the sexual assault charges proved to be bogus, Calame wanted to see his paper to keep on going with coverage of "what is done about the racial-insult allegations given the prominence of the team and the university."?! Supposedly, the strippers made some disparaging crack about a player's sexual endowment. Is that one of the racial-insult allegations that Calame wanted The Times to continue delving into?
I'm trying to recall whether I read this apologia when it first came out, and if so whether I was as amazed by it then as I am now. I would point out that it was a great many years before the NYT admitted to the huge fraud perpetrated by their reporter in the Soviet Union, and 50 years before the paper unqualifiedly apologized for its conscious efforts to play down reports of the Holocaust as it was unfolding. Perhaps we must await a good many more years before the Times apologizes for this journalistic travesty made all the worse in my opinion by the Public Editor's shameful defense of their handling of the story.
While I think Mangum committed a crime, the prospect--were I a prosecutor--of trying to get a straight sentence out of her either in the investigation or the trial would be unpleasant. I could see a verdict of not guilty by reason of unintelligibility.
Plus, she'd be a victim of The Man and all the usual suspects would be in the streets.
The logical implication of this is that certain people can break the law with impunity, because those who share their color would riot in the streets if the law were to be enforced.
I think this is a really, really bad way to run a legal system and a society.
You presume I don't know the diff about nucking futz.
For example, if a guy cuts a kid's throat because he thinks he's defending himself against the devil, he's NGI. If he cuts a kid's throat because he likes to do that stuff, he's sane, for legal purposes, no matter how many people say he must be insane to do/like doing that.
As I say, I'd like to see Mangum get hammered as a false accuser because I would like to see false accusers hammered. But your likely evidence is that gathered by the DPD. I would submit that is a credibility problem not often encountered by prosecutors.
You might want to peruse the feminist blogs to get a sense of the outrage that would be directed at anybody who tries to prosecute Mangum. I expect the NAACP would be there. Pressure has an effect. It may not have sufficient effect to stall a prosecution by itself, but it has an effect which, in conjunction with other issues, could be decisive.
Come to think of it, a visiting prosecutor might be the way to go here. Prosecuting Mangum and trying to stay an effective figure in LE in the Durham area afterwards....
Would you accept this as not-inaccurate summary?
"Mangum deserves to be prosecuted but will not be due to political and ideological pressures."
It is a bad way to run a legal system, but Rodney King had some years of a riot-supplied teflon freedom of action. Some of the jurors in the OJ trial admitted to being uncomfortably aware of the results of the first RK trial.
The question, in one sense, is it worth it to prosecute Mangum at the possible cost of some millions of dollars in various ways, and the production of, say, two dozen events which can be made to look like racist oppression.
"The cops were busting heads, man!!" was a refrain I heard after a riot on my campus in 1968. When I told the folks I'd been there--half the college of soc sci was out observing the other half being buttheads--they swore most foully at me. Problem is, a made-up event of racist oppression impresses the gullible exactly as if it were true, which is why they're so frequently made up. The same is true of the fem/libs for whom Mangum is a hero. Not because of what she is in reality, but because of what she is in their fevered imaginations. With the additional charge of making it so much harder for real victims of rape to come forward. Femblogs have had serious, or not, discussions of just this topic.
Also, Ralph, my guess would be that the defense, who would be conventionally expected to keep her from the stand, would cheerfully put her there to completely baffle the jury. I had a friend, now passed, who was a judge sitting on an assault case. One of the witnesses, who was not demonstrably mentally challenged, still spoke in such an argot of 'hoodspeak and ebonics as to have to be let step down without ever saying anything anybody understood.
And I would add to the political and ideological pressure the point that the most important evidence that could be brought would be her statements to the DPD. IOW, you got bupkis. I know how to talk like that because I used to watch L&O.
That's why the DNA of 4 men was on her. And the combination of methadone, Ambien, Paxil, and alcohol fucked up her mind so much she couldn't remember it until later that night, when she started free associating all sorts of things together in this insane mish-mash.
And she would turn it back around on the DPD for not figuring that out, and letting the real rapists get away with it. Hmmm... actually, it might be good for the DPD to go through that ordeal.
Anyway, the DPD could use a little evisceration and vivisection and....um....flaying. It would be one of the possible benefits of the trial.
i was in the feminist blogs for months BEFORE the charges were dropped, trying to convince those stalinist morons that the case was a bunch of crap.
i am well aware these people care only about ideology and the sisterhood, and not justice, logic, truth, or reality.
with that in mind, again, others have attacked your "point" so i will just reiterate.
the decision shouldn't be based on how it makes (ignorant) feminists feel, etc.
she committed a very heinous crime. imo, as heinous as rape itself, but irrefutably not a nice (or legal) thing to do.
she should be held responsible for her behavior. this is not blaming the victim, cause she is not a VICTIM any more than a rapist is a victim.
she did more damge (and nifong) to REAL rape victims than 1,000,000 drunk white privileged frat boys (tm) could ever do (note: sarcasm).
she deserves punishment. period. she is not a sympathetic figure. i get so tired of this. i don't CARE what her race is, her gender, etc. i care about WHAT SHE DID.
Great. You care. Noted. That and a buck....
Point is that she's not going to be prosecuted no matter how much you care and no matter how just such a prosecution would be. And if she were prosecuted, the source of the most relevant evidence has been tainted irreparably by being on paper whose letterhead includes the word "Durham".
I presume you didn't have much luck with the radfems. They're the folks who respond to "they didn't do it" with accusations of being a rape apologist. The point is whether the real, as opposed to the ideal, prosecutors on the scene are going to be unduly impressed by the degree--whatever it is--of hell the fems will unleash. But it won't be zero.