Anonymous Electronic Reactions by Students:

Some of us at UCLA Law School have been experimenting with a new student participation system: Students in our classes have been issued what we call "clickers" -- electronic devices a little larger than a pocket calculator -- on which they can anonymously respond to professors' questions. When I start the corresponding program on the in-class computer, I can pose students' questions, and then get their reactions. The system, I'm told, can be used for many purposes, but right now I'm mainly using it to (1) quiz students to make sure they understand the legal rules, using questions that do have a right answer, and (2) ask students' views about policy questions.

Just today, I had a particularly interesting experience that I doubt I would have had without the clickers. My criminal law class is covering the law of rape, and we were talking about State v. Alston, a controversial 1984 North Carolina case involving the question of how much evidence of force is needed to prove rape. We discussed the facts (as reported in the appellate decision) in considerable detail, and discussed the court's legal ruling.

But I then asked the students to imagine themselves as jurors, and to answer whether -- given the facts -- they would have found the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of forcible rape (as the jury in Alston did, though the appellate court reversed). I also asked women and men to give separate answers (women A and B for proven beyond a reasonable doubt / not proven, men C and D for proven / not proven); and note that the answers are all anonymous.

Sixty students answered, out of a class of 81 (of whom I imagine 70 to 75 were present). This included 25 of 41 women and 35 of 40 men, a higher rate of abstention -- or absence -- on women's part, but a high participation rate for both sexes. The answers were:

  • Among women: 10 voted for rape proven beyond a reasonable doubt, 15 not proven.

  • Among men: 17 voted for rape proven, 18 not proven.

I stressed to students, of course, that this was not a large sample, and most certainly not one representative of the country as a whole. But I think it ended up being a useful perspective for the students, in highlighting to everyone both (1) how close the division was, and (2) how little gender gap there was (with men actually being a little more likely than women to find rape proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but I'm not sure not to any statistically significant degree). My sense is that this was an important pedagogical tool, chiefly because it helped show people how people of their own age, sex, and social class can disagree on such matters (whether or not they conclude that such disagreement is indeed warranted).

As importantly, I doubt that I'd have gotten nearly as much response, or as candid a reaction, if I'd just asked for a show of hands instead of an anonymous clicker vote. And even if I had gotten candid responses, I doubt that students would have had confidence in that candor. So I was very pleased with how the clickers worked here.

rbs (mail) (www):
I worked on a project at UCSD that created similar technologies. Ours allowed (at the teacher's discretion) for more complex interaction. For example, students could electronically ask questions, which could be voted on or answered by other students. Lots of interesting things happened, some of which we wrote up.
10.5.2007 6:25pm
Alan Gunn (mail):
Interesting! A somewhat disturbing phenomenon I noticed in my last few years of teaching was a tendency among some students to insist that good-faith disagreement about issues--just about any issues--was not possible. I've even had several students say that the idea of "reasonable persons disagreeing" was ridiculous, as any disagreement with their views couldn't possible be reasonable. I suspected at the time that this had something to do with the tendency in some academic fields to encourage students to shout down "bad" people rather than respond to their arguments. Your technique may be a useful way of bringing out differences. The next step would be to develop a technique for getting people to talk about differences on the merits, which may be tougher.
10.5.2007 6:32pm
Anon Law Student (mail):
One of my professors used this 'clicker' just a few days ago to assess our knowledge of Civ Pro. He had assigned some hypos the day before, and we showed up in class to give answers and discuss them.

Not only does it help in getting candid responses, but it can also assess how well the students as a whole are actually understanding the material (something that's notoriously difficult under the Socratic Method)
10.5.2007 6:34pm
TerrencePhilip:
I just tracked down State v. Alston online, and my goodness what an interesting opinion- I wish my crim law professor had covered it!
10.5.2007 6:38pm
arbitraryaardvark (mail) (www):
Compare Talley v California (1960) with Daniel Griset v Cal. Fair Political Practices Commission.
Persecuted groups and sects from time to time throughout history have been able to criticize oppressive practices and laws either anonymously or not at all.

In 1960, the Supreme Court said that anonymous political speech is too important to ban. In 2007, California is still trying to punish people who engage in anonymous political speech. See also yesterday's Richert v Wash Public Disclosure Comm'n. So, yeah, it's not surprising that the anonymity provided by the clickers helps gather better data.
10.5.2007 6:41pm
Pub Editor:
My sophomore-year Physics course used clickers for example questions during lectures. The professors also used them as a means of tracking attendance. :)
10.5.2007 6:49pm
arbitraryaardvark (mail) (www):
Oh, Richert already discussed below - never mind.
10.5.2007 6:52pm
Smokey:
Among women: 10 voted for rape proven beyond a reasonable doubt, 15 not proven.
Among men: 17 voted for rape proven, 18 not proven.
This is scary as hell.

Woman: "He's a rapist."

Defendant: "No, I'm not!"

Jury of students: "Guilty! No proof needed. If she said it, it must be true..."

Presumed innocent guilty.
10.5.2007 6:55pm
allwrits (mail):
I want to comment on the rape question polling. I try criminal cases, it is what I do for a living. Part of that is know the demos of my jury pools and what -- given a very rough sketch of a person you get in voir dire -- a person is disproportionately likely to do.

Your poll reflects my experience and that of my colleagues. As a general rule men are more likely than women to find other men guilty of rape. You can speculate on the reasons, but it is just a general rule.
10.5.2007 6:59pm
SSD (mail):
What are you talking about, Smokey?
10.5.2007 7:00pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Smokey: Have you read the Alston case, by any chance? If so, can you tell us why you think the unanimous jury in North Carolina, and nearly half my students, found the defendant guilty with "[n]o proof"? (Also, note as a general matter, an eyewitness's testimony is often considered powerful proof in criminal cases, especially when combined with demeanor evidence and other evidence.)
10.5.2007 7:02pm
Guest101:
My criminal law professor did something similar with an anonymous paper survey on various rape-related topics; I don't remember the exact results but I recall that the gender gap was much wider, with women voting to define various borderline acts as rape more often than men.
10.5.2007 7:26pm
Hans Bader (mail):
Historically, as in the result in your class, men were more likely than women to convict in rape cases. (There is an exception to this rule: the result is different in some studies of female vs. male undergraduates, but that may be because of campus indoctrination oriented towards female students).

By contrast, in sexual harassment civil cases, women seem more likely to rule in favor of the plaintiff than men, regardless of educational level. That is different than in rape cases.

It may be that men are more less suspicious of female complainants' credibility than other women are (making them more pro-prosecution in a rape case), but also more sympathetic to men in cases of workplace miscommunication (the source of some sexual harassment cases), given that men, unlike women, are expected to initiate romantic relationships in our society, and thus have reason to think twice about overreacting to the seeming specter of sexual harassment.
10.5.2007 7:32pm
TerrencePhilip:
I want to comment on the rape question polling. I try criminal cases, it is what I do for a living. Part of that is know the demos of my jury pools and what -- given a very rough sketch of a person you get in voir dire -- a person is disproportionately likely to do.

Your poll reflects my experience and that of my colleagues. As a general rule men are more likely than women to find other men guilty of rape. You can speculate on the reasons, but it is just a general rule.


Having tried a few, I would mostly concur, and add that women under 30 in general, and both genders in the elite demographic group that makes up students at top law schools, are likely to be receptive to the prosecution in cases of adult-on-adult rape. If the defendant and victim are of different races, it is like throwing gas on a flame.
10.5.2007 7:44pm
UW2L:
Oh, wretched clickers. Roundly hated at my law school, not just for their cost ($30 or $40) and their unreliability, but because they are used more to assure attendance than to foster an interesting class "discussion" of sorts on policy issues, as you have done here. (Of course, a prof who keeps things interesting won't need to boost flagging attendance.) Whether trying to enforce attendance or to get good data, a professor must mind that there is a 1:1 ratio between students and clickers: truant students at my school not uncommonly hand their clicker to a friend willing to respond for them in class (I heard tell recently of one person holding clickers for seven people). This both negates the clicker's usefulness for taking attendance and skews results: your experiment would be meaningless were the students who voted actually way fewer in number than 60. A multiple-voter responding on others' behalf might cast every vote the same way, or might vote at random for their absent friends. I hope that, on information and belief, you've got true and accurate data here.
10.5.2007 8:06pm
Cory Olson (mail):
Didn't I see this clicker thing on The Love Connection? Bonus points if it makes that clicking sound as it tallies up the votes.
10.5.2007 8:08pm
theobromophile (www):

Historically, as in the result in your class, men were more likely than women to convict in rape cases.

Yes. I will posit a different theory: women hear a situation, and think, "Well, I've never had that happen to me, and men always stop if you really want them to." Men think, "Hell would freeze over before I would treat a woman like that," so they are willing to convict.

My tax prof loved the clickers. She used them to track our progress (or lack thereof).
10.5.2007 8:09pm
Women are less likely to convict for rape (mail):
The results here are not suprising. Here, nearly 50% of the men participating would have voted to convict, where, in comparison, only 40% of women would have voted to convict.

The fact is that women tend to be more judgmental of other women and more likely to see fault in their actions than men are. Can anyone say cat fight?

It is thought that women may have a psychological incentive to find something wrong with the woman's actions rather than view her as a victim. If there is something wrong with the woman's behavior, it is easier to think that something like rape would never happen to oneself, who does not exhibit the similar blameworthy behavior.

I am not surprised by the vote. If was a prosecutor prosecuting a rape case, I would prefer male jurors over female, and if I was the defense attorney, vice-versa. The fact that women are less likely to convict for rape in many cases is well known. (Although, in some cases, women are more likely to convict.)
10.5.2007 8:21pm
Smokey:
What are you talking about, Smokey?
The presumption of innocence, of course. I guess I'm being naive, huh?
10.5.2007 8:48pm
Public_Defender (mail):
This case presents two lessons. First, lawyers view criminal matters more analytically than non-lawyers. In most rape cases, the real jury issue is did the defendant violate community norms of behavior. This is why many prosecutors keep lawyers off of criminal cases. Lawyers are more likely look at technical details in these cases.

Second, he won? Where do I find judges like this?

Third, courts should almost never put the name of alleged sexual assault victims into opinions. I really pity the poor woman. Even if it wasn't rape, it was a humiliating experience. And now her name is attached to a detailed description of it forever. If any of her friends Google her, they get numerous links to this case and to commentary about the case. How would you like to have your most humiliating moment forever memorialized like this?

And Smokey, the guy really was innocent until proven guilty. A jury found him guilty after what appears to be a decent trial. If that makes you mad, a court of appeals reversed. At best (for the guy), this was a close case. Most courts I practice in would say that the jury had the right to infer a threat of force from the defendant's previous actions. This guy was extremely lucky.

One reality of my job is that sometimes guilty people are found guilty after truly fair trials.
10.5.2007 9:33pm
Public_Defender (mail):
Yes, I can count to three. I added a third "lesson" during the edits, and forgot to change the first sentence of the comment. Sorry.
10.5.2007 9:36pm
Dave N (mail):
Clickers sound like a good idea for promoting discussion if they are done right (which it sounds happened in this case).

On an unrelated note, is there a link (not behind a firewall on a secure website like Lexis or Westlaw) that has the Alston case?
10.5.2007 9:46pm
Smokey:
Thanx, Public_Defender, for taking the time to explain. My original concern was based on the basics of the poll: "not proven" to me indicated that a serious accusation had been made, and the jury then found for the accuser based on her accusation.

In looking at the article again, I now realize that there was more discussed by the class than a simple accusation by a woman who, for all I knew when I first read it, could have been just a good actress.

In the culture of 2007 America, many times it is the seriousness of the accusation that matters more than the substance; maybe I was getting ahead of myself in assuming that was also the case here.
10.5.2007 9:58pm
Public_Defender (mail):
Smokey,
Remember, even if a case is purely he said/she said, the jury is entitled to believe the "she said" and convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

And Professor Volokh is right that an "eyewitness's testimony is often considered powerful proof in criminal cases. . . ." But eyewitness testimony is also notoriously unreliable. That's a dangerous combination.

Look at almost any case later overturned on DNA evidence, and you will frequently (if not almost always) find a case that was based on the testimony of an eyewitness who credibly, confidently, and wrongly identified the defendant as the criminal.
10.5.2007 10:16pm
LM (mail):

I stressed to students, of course, that this was not a large sample, and most certainly not one representative of the country as a whole. But I think it ended up being a useful perspective for the students, in highlighting to everyone both (1) how close the division was, and (2) how little gender gap there was (with men actually being a little more likely than women to find rape proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but I'm not sure not to any statistically significant degree).

It does sound like a valuable and fun pedagogical tool. But it also sounds like your disclaimer may have left room for your students to infer from your interest in the splits and gender gaps that there was anything statistically reliable they could extrapolate from the results, other than of course the opinions of those who voted today.
10.5.2007 10:33pm
Redlands (mail):
Public_Defender, your take on reporting the victim's name interests me because as a prosecutor I have had to deal with the decision so often. Presenting a story in a courtroom seems so sterile, even for a crime like rape which can certainly cause a visceral reaction. Good lawyering sure helps to overcome it. But I have always disliked the "Jane Doe" label, feeling that it depersonalizes the victim, though I have only asked one woman to decline the anonymity.
As for the jury, give me 12 men, 35-50 yrs, every time. I've done o.k. with women jurors but in talking to about a dozen juries, after verdict, in rape cases (some were my cases, some were colleagues) 95% of the remarks critical of the victim have come from women. Someone earlier said, "judgmental," and I think that's about it, or at least as much as I'm capable of analyzing. BTW, getting ready to try a pretty tough one next month. One thing for sure, the penalties are some of the most fierce found in the penal code.
As for use of the "clicker," does it allow students to avoid public expression of thought when it might be better to encourage it? Sounds like a pretty neat tool though.
10.5.2007 10:43pm
Public_Defender (mail):
Redlands,

I agree that in court, names must be used. I would also want the discretion to use names--I don't want to call the alleged victim "the victim." My objection comes to when things are published in a form that reaches the Internet.

Putting the names on the Internet generally hurts both the victim and the defendant, especially the guilty defendant. The damage to the victim is obvious. The damage to the defendant is less obvious.

Frequently, I can't adequately represent my client without ticking off the victim or the victim's family, but I work hard to avoid gratuitously rubbing salt into the victim's wounds. Increasing the harm of a crime by increasing the victim's humiliation will almost never help my client. It's better for everyone to limit the damage.
10.5.2007 11:11pm
allwrits (mail):
Although most of us agree on the jury dynamics. How, without violating (or at least getting caught violating) JEB do you "shape" a jury to meet the stereotype you are going for.
10.5.2007 11:19pm
Eli Rabett (www):
We are going to clickers (to take attendance and get more class participation:). One of the things we are doing is getting agreement across the college that everyone will use the same clicker. Another is trying to set up a sell back scheme through the student clubs so that those graduating can sell their clicker for say $20 and others can buy them at a bit more the difference to cover costs with a little left over for the clubs.
10.5.2007 11:47pm
W A Woodruff (mail):
I've used clickers in my Evidence course the last two years and have been very pleased with the ability to quickly evaluate where the class is on a given point so I can either move on to another point or stay with that subject a little longer. The students like the instant feedback on their understanding, as well. But the most valuable aspect of the technology is that they are great discussions starters. There's something about a student pushing a little button on a small transmitter that invests him or her in the outcome. I've found students using clickers are generally much more likely to participate in the discussion than without the clickers. The technology is limited only by the creativity of the instructor in developing and presenting polling questions. One can query students on the application of rules, solicit opinions on policy choices, and just about any thing else you can imagine. While there are always students who won't participate, those who do participate uniformly comment the experience enhanced their understanding of the material and their enjoyment of the course. At our school we purchased the clickers and bar coded them into the library collection system. Students with courses using clickers check them out for the semester. While the software I use does allow you to take roll, it has many other report features than can be of tremendous assistance in working with students who are struggling with the material. For example, I can go back through the questions on a given topic and see where a given student went astray, identify the issue that was causing the problem, and, in many cases, isolate the faulty reasoning that produced the "wrong" answer to a given question. It is tough to do that if all you have is the student self-reporting what they don't understand. Many times they simply don't understand what the don't understand. Go figure, learn and have fun doing it. What a concept!
10.6.2007 12:46am
Malvolio:
women hear a situation, and think, "Well, I've never had that happen to me, and men always stop if you really want them to." Men think, "Hell would freeze over before I would treat a woman like that," so they are willing to convict.
10.6.2007 3:10am
Malvolio:
[Sorry hit the post button instead of block quote]
women hear a situation, and think, "Well, I've never had that happen to me, and men always stop if you really want them to." Men think, "Hell would freeze over before I would treat a woman like that," so they are willing to convict.
Men know what brutality men are capable of; women know what dishonesty women are capable of.
10.6.2007 3:13am
Visitor Again:
Dave N wrote:

On an unrelated note, is there a link (not behind a firewall on a secure website like Lexis or Westlaw) that has the Alston case?

State v. Alston is reproduced here.

If you had bothered to Google the case name, you could have found it yourself when you wanted to read it.
10.6.2007 7:39am
Public_Defender (mail):
UW2L says his or her school forces students to pay for clickers. Is this true? Given the gigantic tuition schools are demanding, you'd think they could throw in a small piece of mandatory equipment.

A couple people complained that clickers were mainly used to take attendance. If that's the case, I'd be really peeved, too. If law schools are going to require students to buy clickers, professors should make pedagogical use of them (like, it appears, Professor Volokh does).

One question--if clickers can be used to take attendence, how are responses to questions anonymous?
10.6.2007 7:58am
Dave N (mail):
Visitor Again,

Thank you. I was in a hurry when I posted and needed to get to a meeting. I should have have checked Google first since that search engine can find just about anything.
10.6.2007 11:15am
Oren (mail):

Here, nearly 50% of the men participating would have voted to convict, where, in comparison, only 40% of women would have voted to convict.




Among women: 10 voted for rape proven, 15 not proven.
Among men: 17 voted for rape proven, 18 not proven.



Statistically speaking, we cannot (p=.4) reject the null hypothesis that both of these samples were drawn from unbiased coin flips. Given the results, we can estimate the stddev*:

Women: 40% +/- 10%
Men: 49% +/- 8.5%



*All the usual caveats about statistics apply: the results suppose that we have honest results sampling without bias from a population with a binomial distribution. Void where taxed or prohibited. Offer not available in Kansas.
10.6.2007 11:27am
CheckEnclosed (mail):
How odd to think that the name of a complaining witness in a rape case might not be made public, while the name of the defendant is. Before trial the defendant is presumed innocent, and after an acquittal he has been proven not guilty. Isn't it more embarrassing, humiliating, etc. to have your name forever linked to rape charges on Google, or whatever, given that committing rape is a bad thing, than to be identified as a complaining witness who has not been accused or proven of having done anything wrong?
10.6.2007 11:44am
Redlands (mail):
allwrits, there is the "ideal" and there is reality. I work for the "stereotype" that makes me feel confident and settle for what the rules allow me.
CheckEnclosed, you make a good point and good reminder to every prosecutor. There are three student athletes at (from?) Duke Univ. who would be doing a lot of head nodding on reading your post. I remind every youngster who arrives fresh in our office that regardless of the severity of a criminal allegation the impact on a person's life can be significant. I use the word "power" a lot and it fits. Even seemingly minor choices should be thoughtfully made.
10.6.2007 12:27pm
Tom O'Bedlam:
What strikes me about this is how it demonstrates the vacuity of the phrase "proof beyond a reasonable doubt," at least as we ordinarily use it. If the phrase means anything at all, it means that the evidence is such that no reasonable person could doubt guilt.

So what are we to say here? That half the voters are not merely wrong, but so wrong as to he labeled "unreasonable"? Or that the very fact of the vote outcome shows that reasonable people can disagree, and therefore by definition there is a "reasonable doubt"?
10.6.2007 1:55pm
Sarah (mail) (www):
One of the sad parts about mostly being done with college in 2001 is that those clickers hadn't really taken off yet. The possibilities seemed so exciting -- especially after four years of often feeling like I might be the only person in a lecture hall (other than the prof) who was actually awake.

The statistically useless results from your poll don't surprise me at all, for all the reasons previous written. The abstentions do surprise me: you made this entire exercise ridiculously low-risk, with absolutely no penalty for being "wrong," and there was an easy "I don't know enough to say" answer in the "not proven" response! What prompted ten to twenty people to refrain from participation under those circumstances?
10.6.2007 2:03pm
Andrew Gradman (mail):
Kudos to EV for using the clickers in a creative way. But his story is just proof that clicker results are only as interesting as the questions they respond to. The profs most tempted to adopt these things are the ones who can't get responses to questions posed to the class; clickers will fail these profs for just that reason. True, clickers will raise participation if their students just don't want their opinions to be laughed at. But when the silence is actually because the questions are bad and the students don't invest personal value in an answer, clickers will have the same perverse effect on outcomes as forced voting does in the real world. And, you know, I don't think professors are being objective when they decide that, No, there's nothing wrong with my questions -- my random sampling of 100 law students just happens to be on the shy side of the bell curve. For these professors, clickers are especially dangerous, because they only encourage them to frame fuzzy "analogue" questions of law in discrete digital form. My legal judgment: clickers are just an "attractive nuisance" for children in the classroom.

My favorite clicker abuse was actually perpetrated by a prof who's a master at the Socratic method. We were reading Johnson v S. Pacific RR, where one question is the meaning of "car" in the Federal Railroad Safety Appliances Act. To illustrate the ambiguity, he shows a slide of five different railroad vehicles and asks, "How many cars?" Answers range from 0 to 5. "Last year, when we used paper surveys, we were able to break down your judgment on each vehicle," he said apologetically. "That's one advantage we lose by giving up the old technology."
10.6.2007 2:06pm
Nate F (www):
I didn't have a chance to read through all the comments, but I will briefly mention my thoughts about these devices. I used them about two years ago as an undergrad at U of Maryland in one course, and I strongly felt that they were comparable to PowerPoint: They have great potential, but I doubt most professors have the imagination and/or motivation to use them for more than pop quizzes and/or taking attendance.
10.6.2007 4:10pm
Eli Rabett (www):
The instructor has the choice of whether responses are anonymous or not. In short, the students have to trust the professor.
10.6.2007 10:15pm
Reinhold (mail):
The latest Student Lawyer has an excellent article criticizing the traditional "socratic" method, which doesn't really resemble the socratic method anymore. Yes, I said criticizing tradition. Although that's taboo in the legal profession in general (e.g., hiring standards, hiring methods, exam-taking methods, etc.), I was happy to see Brian Leiter's biting criticism of the "socratic" method. I don't have the article in front of me, but he said something to the effect that it leads students into confusion, and he has abandoned the practice. It's only a matter of time before fundamentalists across the legal profession begin to reevaluate much of the tradition that shrouds the profession.
10.7.2007 7:21am
Public_Defender (mail):
Checkenclosed,
I would love it if we could keep the name of the accused confidential until conviction (and possibly until completion of appeals), but there's no way to do that in the U.S.

Since I think keeping the names of alleged sexual assault victims off the Internet is generally in the interests of defendants, that's a good place to start. Keeping names confidential is especially important in the case of alleged child victims. If a child is testifying that she was raped, she needs help regardless of whether the allegations are true.
10.7.2007 7:56am
agroothuis@cali.org (mail) (www):
If any professors are interested in experimenting with the sort of student interaction Professor Volokh mentions, but lack access to "clickers," I welcome them to use the nonprofit Center for Computer-Assisted Legal Instruction's (CALI...www.cali.org) Instapoll tool.

It's completely free and students submit polling responses through their laptops. Click here for links and more information about the free online polling tool.

Thanks,

Austin
CALI
agroothuis@cali.org
10.8.2007 7:55pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Strikes me that the success of clickers shows, in part, a lack of moral courage on the part of the students and/or a fear, justified or not, of grade retaliation for making an unpopular argument.
10.8.2007 9:44pm
Ralph Phelan (mail):
"Second, he won? Where do I find judges like this?"

North Carolina.
Go back a couple of weeks and read KC Johnson's guest postings.
10.9.2007 12:53pm
Ralph Phelan (mail):
"Third, courts should almost never put the name of alleged sexual assault victims into opinions. I really pity the poor woman. Even if it wasn't rape, it was a humiliating experience. And now her name is attached to a detailed description of it forever. If any of her friends Google her, they get numerous links to this case and to commentary about the case. How would you like to have your most humiliating moment forever memorialized like this?"
Are you willing to also keep the defendant's name out of the opinion? At the very least, only put it in if he's found guilty? If he's not guilty, don't all the same arguments apply?
10.9.2007 12:55pm
Ralph Phelan (mail):
"Yes, I can count to three. I added a third "lesson" during the edits, and forgot to change the first sentence of the comment. "

You forgot the fear, suprise, ruthless efficiency, and almost fanatical devotion to the Pope. Not to mention the nice red uniforms.
10.9.2007 12:59pm