The Volokh Conspiracy

Interesting Study on Professors' Ideology:

The Inside Higher Ed. story on the study is here.

A few interesting tidbits:

(1) There is a much higher percentage of conservatives teaching at (relatively low-paying, low prestige) community colleges than elsewhere. So much for the oft-heard theory that conservatives are so scarce at elite schools because they are selfish, ambitious, money-grubbers who lack the inclination to give up the "good life" to pursue the "life of the mind."

(2) Contrary to the stereotype of the conservative business school professor, professors of business voted 2-1 for John Kerry in '04.

(3) Among social science professors (which I assume includes economics, a relatively, but not absolutely, conservative field), Ralph Nader and "Other" combined received as high a percentage of the votes as George Bush in '04.

(4) Professors are almost evenly divided on affirmative action preferences. This is consistent with my experience; supporters are a lot louder than opponents, and there are a lot of quiet opponents out there.

(5) The youngest cohort of professors is significantly more moderate than their middle-aged colleagues, but the percentage of conservatives has stayed steady (and very low). The former point isn't a complete surprise. When universities were hiring like crazy in the 1970s, it must have seemed very attractive to political activists to obtain a tenured sinecure from which they could pursue their political activism. Nowadays, when it's so hard to get a tenure-track job, I would expect people not really committed to the academic life to be weeded out; it's pretty hard to focus on your activism when you are commuting to three different temporary teaching jobs, hoping to eventually land a permanent one.

fffff:
There is a much higher percentage of conservatives teaching at (relatively low-paying, low prestige) community colleges than elsewhere. So much for the oft-heard theory that conservatives are so scarce at elite schools because they are selfish, ambitious, money-grubbers who lack the inclination to give up the "good life" to pursue the "life of the mind."

Of course, this lends credence to the other, less charitable theory that conservatives are so scarce at elite schools because there's relatively fewer conservatives who have the abilities appropriate for teaching at elite schools.
10.9.2007 10:03am
Justin (mail):
Of course, the fact that potential professors uniformly have more lucrative opportunities (from the minute they finish high school on) in the private sector has nothing to do with it, but the difficulties of getting tenure track is VERY IMPORTANT.

::sigh:: It's election time again at VC - I wonder how many posts it will take before a collection of people who know better will justify their vote for Giuliani.
10.9.2007 10:05am
Justin (mail):
fffff,

It's not that there aren't smart conservatives. It's just that the smartest conservatives have much different opportunities than mediocre ones, fffff. They're also more likely to have flexibility across their various interests - which is why the amount of conservatives willing to accept lower pay grades working for the government (which provides more long term financial benefits, as well as more ability to influence policy) is much higher than in academia.

But it's easier to spit off numbers and make wider accusations, you know, than actually reason through facts. DB takes one, "obvious" fact that helps his worldview, and uncritically uses it to defeat all his opposing ideas. He takes one "obvious" fact that opposes his worldview, and he easily dismisses it as explainable. That the real answer is far more nuanced is something that only will be realized by people who are willing to acknowledge the existence of nuance.
10.9.2007 10:09am
DavidBernstein (mail):
Justin, I've read both your posts, and can't figure out what you're talking about. I'm not arguing that if academia was a pure meritocracy, conservatives would be represented in non community colleges at exactly at the same level as in the educated population writ large, I'm arguing that one has to explain why conservatives are so disproportionately represented at community colleges. Why do you think, and why would anyone think, that the smartest conservatives have better relative opportunities to elite academic jobs than mediocre conservatives have to community college jobs?
10.9.2007 10:14am
Justin (mail):
If you're seriously asking, the reason goes to the winner takes home economy. People with the most elite credentials have substantial earning power in a country in which the top 1% makes over 15% of the income in this country (excluding capital gains) and hold over 40% of the nation's financial wealth. So someone with the elite credentials is going to have a wealth of opportunity, whereas a mediocre candidate's private sector opportunity is far more limited.

Add to that studies which show that people's flexibility and vision increase with education and intelligence, and the drive to be an academic may clearly be less strong amongst more mediocre candidates than major ones. And finally, in many fields to be an elite candidate one has to show at least a grudging acceptance that the dominate studies in the field often conform with a more liberal worldview than their own - but at a lesser school, its easier to simply be a master of your own little domain and ignore the leaders in the field, who tend to work at elite universities.

Professor Leiter has made some of these points, and a whole lot more concrete ones. I have *never* seen you make an effort to refute the points he has made.

Leiter

Leiter

Aw hell, this will take me too much time, so:

Leiter
10.9.2007 10:26am
Matty G:
David: Nice post. This is the kind of thing I wouldn't have seen otherwise.

As a mild libertarian conservative who got his Ph.D. at Yale, I find it hilarious that there are those who deny the academic political climate is hostile to conservatives. In my travels, these people can only be of three stripes:

1)Never spent much, if any, time in academics.
2)Think the median Democrat is "conservative."
3)Drank-the-cool-aid delusional.

Thanks again for the link.

m
10.9.2007 10:27am
liberty (mail) (www):

2)Think the median Democrat is "conservative."


Indeed, this seems to be common.
10.9.2007 10:34am
anduril (mail):
The article seems to rely on self characterization. I submit that those who describe themselves as "conservative" usually would be so described by others who are familiar with them, but that many who describe themselves as "moderate" would be described by others as quite liberal. Result: this study probably understates the liberal bias, significant though the liberal bias appears even using this flawed methodology.
10.9.2007 10:35am
solon (mail) (www):

Contrary to the stereotype of the conservative business school professor, professors of business voted 2-1 for John Kerry in '04.


Out of curiosity, what does this piece of evidence suggest? That "conservative business schools" are more liberal?

If that were this case, then hasn't this evidence been ripped out of context since (a) by 2004, Bush demonstrated he was not a fiscal conservative, (b) Kerry ran as being more fiscally conservative than Bush, (c) many of the "elite" conservatives started to move away from Bush and saw Kerry as a better option, and (d) by 2004, there was enough evidence that Iraq was not helping the war on terror (allegations of torture, poor post-invasion planning, rise of bombings in Iraq).

If you are trying to make the case that business schools are not "conservative" (what ever that means since there are multiple ideologies that fall with the "conservative" category such as Theo-Con, Paleo-Con, Neo-Con, Fusionist, and Libertarian) then the political context of the 2004 election diminishes your choice of evidence.

If this is not the case, then please clarify what the evidence suggests.

As to Anduril:

this study probably understates the liberal bias, significant though the liberal bias appears even using this flawed methodology.


Most studies do not define what it means to be a conservative or a liberal. That is the problem with these studies: is a person a liberal in the classic John Stuart Mill sense of the term? I liberal New Deal Democrat? A Liberal as in libertarian? A liberal in the Adam Smith tradition? A liberal as in Green Party? A Liberal as is Social Democrat?
10.9.2007 10:40am
DavidBernstein (mail):
That still doesn't answer the "relative" question very well. An elite "conservative" with academic interests could go to Harvard business school and be rich, or become a history professor at an elite school, have an upper middle class lifestyle, and have a great life. A non-elite but well-educated conservative can make a good upper middle class salary or teach at a community college without most of the perks one gets at an elite school (community college professors tend to get paid less, teach more, have less interesting students and colleagues, get less respect and prestige, have fewer opportunities to do research, etc.) I still don't see how the elite conservative's opportunity costs are so much higher, or higher at all.
10.9.2007 10:40am
Elliot Reed:
Those who are interested in the original results can find the paper here.

ffff -- the theory of conservative stupidity doesn't comport with the finding (see Table 3) that conservatives are two and a half times as common at elite PhD-granting institutions than at non-elite PhD institutions.

I've never been sure what to make of the fact that the arguments that get made in this debate are a bizarre mirror of the debates over race discrimination. Suddenly conservatives are happy to accept disparate impact as prima facie evidence of discrimination and a need for remedial programs to achieve "diversity". At the same time, liberals are contorting themselves into pretzels while relying on stereotype-based, evidence-free assertions that they underrepresented class is just too dumb to cut it, or just not interested, or too greedy, or whatever it takes to deny the obvious realities on the ground.
10.9.2007 10:43am
DavidBernstein (mail):
"(a) by 2004, Bush demonstrated he was not a fiscal conservative, (b) Kerry ran as being more fiscally conservative than Bush, (c) many of the "elite" conservatives started to move away from Bush and saw Kerry as a better option, and (d) by 2004, there was enough evidence that Iraq was not helping the war on terror (allegations of torture, poor post-invasion planning, rise of bombings in Iraq)."

I agree with you an (a). On (b), exactly what programs did Kerry claim he'd cut relative to Bush? On (c) I don't think polling data bears that out, but feel free to provide such data. And (d) is irrelevant to the point.
10.9.2007 10:43am
Elliot Reed:
anduril, have you looked at the paper at all? There are a variety of methodologies in there, not just the one you criticize. (The authors even go so far as to address your criticism!)
10.9.2007 10:51am
Publius Endures (mail) (www):
I think the influence of economics on the social sciences voting preference is reflected in the unusually high "other" vote in that arena. This would suggest a lot of votes for the LP or the Constitution Party.

Also, the study seems to claim that academia is more moderate than most people think. One of the article's contentions is that, if you factor out humanities and the social sciences, the academic world is really quite moderate. This amuses me, because humanities and the social sciences are - except for maybe business - the only two fields where politics should ever come into play. They are also two very large fields. Put another way, hiring a conservative/libertarian astronomy professor might make your "intellectual diversity" profile look better, but in reality, it has little or no effect on the political slant of a school's educational environment.
10.9.2007 10:57am
Hoosier:
Elliott Reed--"Suddenly conservatives are happy to accept disparate impact as prima facie evidence of discrimination and a need for remedial programs to achieve "diversity". "

I don't think that this is quite right. I am conservative, and in academia. The point that conservatives raise about discrimination is not a matter "prima facie evidence," from my experience. It is rather a mater of empircal evidence. If you are involved in academic affairs at a major research university, it is impossible to avoid bumping up against the overwhelming pre-disposition to malign conservatives as stupid and greedy. One hears this all the time, almost as if maligning conservatives is a secret handshake denoting membership in the fraternity.

On the other hand, lack of, say, large numbers of African-American faculty at this institution is not a result of bias: We are bending over backward to try to attract and retain minority faculty. And the Dean and Provost sweat it out terribly when a minority assisatant professor is coming up on tenure year, and still does not have a book.

In summary form: there is visible, ergregious bias against conservatives on university campuses, or at least on all that I have been associated with. There has not been such bias against minorities. Quite the opposite.

Just to confuse the matter: I support affirmative action hiring for faculty from under-represented groups. They do add something to the intellectual mix in most cases. And I've never seen a case in which an affirmative action hire was not up to the job.

BUT--When academics tell themselves that there is no bias against conservatives, they need to pause and look at the race issue as well. One reason there are so few minority academics is probably because many bright young minority college students don't think that academia will be friendly toward them. They can't "see themselves" here.

This same dynamic helps explain the dearth of conservatives in academia: Conservative undergrads here tend to go off to law school, since they have picked up the sense that they won't be welcomed with open arms by the academic "community."
10.9.2007 11:06am
Jeff Boghosian (mail):
"On (b), exactly what programs did Kerry claim he'd cut relative to Bush? "

I suspect Kerry's net wishlist for federal government spending was larger than Bush's, but I wonder if fiscal conservatives recognized that a Republican congress would fight against Kerry's budget but support Bush's.
10.9.2007 11:08am
solon (mail) (www):

I agree with you an (a). On (b), exactly what programs did Kerry claim he'd cut relative to Bush? On (c) I don't think polling data bears that out, but feel free to provide such data. And (d) is irrelevant to the point.


(b)- (On how Kerry argued he would be more fiscally responsible):
From the second presidential debate:

The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules.

I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years.

And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security.


From the third presidential debate:

Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility.

Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country.

This president has taken a $5. 6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year.


While these may not be the best examples, Kerry argued that he would be, as has been, more fiscally responsible than the President.


And (d) is irrelevant to the point.


D is not irrelevant to the point because it offers reasons why "conservatives" broke from the Bush Administration.
10.9.2007 11:13am
another guest:
This Harvard report, it's worth noting, is critical of other studies that have been promoted here at VC and carried out by some of David Bernstein's colleagues at GMU--namely, Dan Klein and S. Robert Lichter--that purported to show rampant liberal bias in the academy.

For example, they describe Dan Klein's work as belonging to a group of studies "closer to thinly disguised works of political advocacy intended to back up the charge of 'liberal bias' in academe" (p. 12)

I urge folks to read all these studies and arrive at their own conclusions about their methodology and merits. But Prof. Bernstein might be more careful here, lest he step on unintended toes.
10.9.2007 11:21am
Elliot Reed:
I don't think that this is quite right. I am conservative, and in academia. The point that conservatives raise about discrimination is not a matter "prima facie evidence," from my experience. It is rather a mater of empircal evidence.
The issue here is that when you have black professors making similar claims about discrimination they claim to have experienced, conservatives tend not to take those claims at face value, instead making all the obvious arguments about the insufficiency of anecdotal evidence, the possibility that they're reading too much into things, could just be overly sensitive, etc. etc. etc. Liberals and conservatives both make radical changes in their standards of evidence in the two contexts.
10.9.2007 11:24am
Elliot Reed:
another guest - the authors of this study pretty much have to say those things, because the suspicion that the other studies have been advocacy pieces has caused a lot of academics to dismiss them out of hand. So to get themselves taken seriously these authors have to bash the other studies whether they agree with those criticisms or not.
10.9.2007 11:26am
SP:
"Of course, this lends credence to the other, less charitable theory that conservatives are so scarce at elite schools because there's relatively fewer conservatives who have the abilities appropriate for teaching at elite schools."

But in sociology? What ability would that be?
10.9.2007 11:27am
Eli Rabett (www):
Having seen many excellent students avoid academia because of the difficulty of climbing the tenure tree in at least three countries, one could almost say that trying to stay on the academic track today is a sign that someone is NOT intelligent.
10.9.2007 11:30am
anduril (mail):
Elliot Reed:

You're right, of course, that the authors attempted to address the concerns that I expressed--which have been well known for quite a long time. The factors they bring into play are quite disparate, it seems to me. While the social issues can fairly be said to separate the sheep from the goats, so to speak, the same cannot be said of all the issues. Iraq, for example, is a very contentious issue across party lines, so one can hardly expect it to offer a clear handle on conservative vs. liberal identities. The same is probably true regarding tenure. I will say that one area that surprised me somewhat was the breakdown on affirmative action.

So, I would say I'm not entirely satisfied with their efforts to smoke out conservatives and liberals. From my perspective on the social issues such as abortion and homosexuality, it seems clear from the study that the professoriate is far more liberal than the general population on such issues, which tend to be hot button issues dividing--and thus identifying--conservatives and liberals. To that extent the study supports, I think, my contention that many of those who identified themselves as "moderate" are actually "liberal" as measured my the usual standards by which most people would describe those categories. Certainly one's attitude toward tenure rarely enters into such considerations, except perhaps within the professoriate itself.
10.9.2007 11:30am
SP:
"If you're seriously asking, the reason goes to the winner takes home economy. People with the most elite credentials have substantial earning power in a country in which the top 1% makes over 15% of the income in this country (excluding capital gains) and hold over 40% of the nation's financial wealth. So someone with the elite credentials is going to have a wealth of opportunity, whereas a mediocre candidate's private sector opportunity is far more limited."

But elite credentials are utterly worthless when the degree is in French literature or anthropology. Companies do not hire because because they have a PhD in just anything.

A substantial number of graduate degrees are in areas that the private sector could care less about.

And do you actually know graduate students? They all tend to be 23. Do you really think that they have the "flexibility and vision" that lets us assume that, by default, their views on politics are somehow more in tuned with reality than a 23 year old working at a job?
10.9.2007 11:32am
Guest101:

I agree with you an (a). On (b), exactly what programs did Kerry claim he'd cut relative to Bush? On (c) I don't think polling data bears that out, but feel free to provide such data. And (d) is irrelevant to the point.

How is (d) irrelevant to the point? Are you assuming that conservative business school profs are going to make voting decisions based solely on a candidate's fiscal policy without taking into account his positions on other issues that, while not directly related to the professor's area of expertise, are quite clearly of interest to business profs qua citizens? That seems rather implausible.
10.9.2007 11:43am
Hoosier:
Elliott Reed-- It depends upon the sort of bias that black academics face. They do face stereotypes and biases, as well as expectation that white academics don't have to deal with.

But we are talking about getting jobs in universities and four-year colleges, as opposed to community colleges. Do you mean to suggest that many black academics face negative bias in hiring decisions? Or that conservatives don't? If the answer is that black academic job applicants benefit from affirmative action, while conservatives of whatever color face bias, then there really is good reason for conservative to treat the cases differently.

Do you think that most, or many, conservative academics are calling for "remedial programs"? I have yet to see much evidence of this. This is another salient difference between the two. Conservatives grow used to hearing about the "pressing need for diversity." Yet we see that, say, members of the AAUP have a very narrow defintion of "diversity." No one here has called for affirmative action for conservatives. But we do often point to this odd use of the word "diversity." Perhaps this is what you are picking up from me and my bretheren.

Again, I support affirmative action for minorities at my institution. And I do not think affirmative action for conservatives is a very good idea, for reason which don't concern us here. But I would not complain if the Faculty Senate made some effort to promote a more intellectually diverse T and R faculty.
10.9.2007 11:45am
Duffy Pratt (mail):
SP:

My college roomate, who was a music composition major, is now an investment banker at JP Morgan. My law school roomate, who has a masters in Classics, is a venture capitalist working at a small tech oriented VC partnership in NY. If the person has talent, the businesses ultimately don't care what major they had.

Has anyone considered that professors tend to vote liberal because liberal politicians are more likely to support policies that benefit universities and professors?
10.9.2007 11:47am
R. Richard Schweitzer (mail):
In the broader range of impact on public thought and actions:

There may be an "underestimation" of the importance of non-domination by "liberal" agendae at the Community College level.

The importance of the influences of the "Major Universities" may be over estimated.

It should not be surprising that the Theory of Public Choice may find application to the fields for employment in the educational systems.

What does seem surprising is that in Academe, unlike "Real Life" continuing experience and maturation does not produce the melioration of radical viewpoints.
In the real world, people "grow up."
In Academe, they apparently don't have to, and don't.

R. Richard Schweitzer
s24rrs@aol.com
10.9.2007 11:49am
Katherine (mail):
1. What's the geographic distribution of community colleges v. liberal arts colleges/universities?

2. Do all or most full time community college profs have PhDs? I'd think yes, but am not actually sure.
10.9.2007 11:53am
Smokey:
From my personal experience:

During the Viet Nam war, before the draft lottery, those majoring in Education were given a deferrment from the draft.

As a result, large numbers of students, including many of my friends, made Education their major in order to avoid the draft. This was common knowledge at the time, and it was routinely discussed because, for 18 - 19 year olds at the time, the draft was an imminent reality.

Then, to keep their draft exemption, large numbers of them continued on into teaching -- which maintained their draft-deferred status, unlike most other professions. [For instance, police officers were also exempt. But that's a dangerous profession, too, and the whole purpose of draft dodging was to avoid personal danger.]

These draft-dodging students were certainly aware that other American boys had to step up and fight for our country in their place, since we had numerous debates at the time about this very problem. But their guilt was insufficient to make them step up and do their duty. In fact, many of them laughed at the "stupid" guys who were drafted. Given the choice the draft-dodgers faced, they were certainly content to let those other boys serve in their place.

So American colleges and universities had a very large influx of draft-dodgers in the late 60's.

Of course, these 'educators' had to rationalize their guilt and cowardice, knowing that they had put their tails between their legs and hid out, rather than serve our country like most American boys did.

So for 35+ years they've taught impressionable students that the draft-dodgers were the heroes, and the soldiers who served were the villains.

Today's students are simply reacting to this continuous false indoctrination by those same guilt-ridden draft dodgers who, rather than serving our country in its time of need, cut and ran.

And many faculties are now dominated and run by the large numbers of 60's-era military haters and Ward Churchill types who fight tooth and nail to keep ROTC out of their schools, because it reminds them of some uncomfortable truths about their own lack of character.
10.9.2007 11:54am
frankcross (mail):
I think people are substantially overstating the alternative job opportunities for community college professors
10.9.2007 11:54am
another guest:
Elliot Reed - In a way, of course, you're right. And as a general matter, the authors of any new report have to find some degree of fault with prior studies to justify yet another one.

But their criticisms of Klein are really quite harsh--they go well beyond the fault-finding necessary to justify a new study.

I wonder if Prof. Bernstein or some other VC contributor might ask Klein for a response?
10.9.2007 12:01pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
(d) is irrelevant because the fact that the Iraq War may not have been going so well is no more likely, and indeed probably less likely, to get conservatives to vote against Bush than moderates and liberals. Do you think there was a large "I'm conservative and I'm voting for Kerry because I think he'd be better on the War on Terror vote?"
10.9.2007 12:08pm
Smokey:
solon:
This president has taken a $5. 6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see.
Really? $5.6 trillion? Got a cite for that?
10.9.2007 12:14pm
Adeez (mail):
Solon, you took the words right outta my mouth. For those who missed your great points, allow me to be a ditto-head.

(1) That professors voted for Kerry over Bush has absolutely nothing to do with their conservative bona fides. I mean, didn't the Conservative magazine (or some related journal---I'm sure someone will correct me if wrong) endorse both Kerry and a Democratic majority?

(2) I apologize to those who bother to read my occasional, repeated rants about this topic, but I can't help it---silly labels are for silly people. These labels are devoid of meaning at this point. So while no one on this site can give a great answer to what a conservative or liberal actually IS, it's hilarious that so many are so sure that the latter is responsible for all the country's ills.
10.9.2007 12:15pm
anon97200:
"(2) Contrary to the stereotype of the conservative business school professor, professors of business voted 2-1 for John Kerry in '04."

This just means that they're intelligent, independent-minded thinkers, not held to a party-centric way of thinking.
10.9.2007 12:16pm
Hoosier:
frankcross-- I can't tell if you mean to imply that community college faculty aren't up to jobs at higher-rated intitutions.

For what it's worth, ideological bias appears primarilly at the time the faculty line is proposed and the advert is written. Academics know that some fields--mine, for instance--have a larger percentage of modertaes and conservatives than do other fields, some of which are exclusively for the left-liberal wing.

So when the dean gives a department the green light to hire an assistant prof in, say, 19th Century US history, the ad can be written to say "Field open, but desired subfields include Queer Theory, Gender and Race, and/or cultural history." That's pretty much like the old "No Irish Need Apply" signs. It is code.

Those of us who do political, diplomatic, intellectual, economic (and God-forbid military!) have no shot at the jobs.

And we put it out of our minds . . . until someone comes along and suggests that we could be at a better university "if we were good enough." No. In fact most of us couldn't.
10.9.2007 12:19pm
Trevor Morrison (mail):
David, you can't possibly mean (d) is *irrelevant* to the point, at least not by any sensible definition of that term. As the commenter points out, Iraq makes it marginally more likely that a fiscal conservative, who already might not be terribly enthusiastic about Bush by 2004, would vote for Kerry. That, in turn, can help explain the reported 2-1 preference for Kerry among business school professors. Does this mean that every business school professor who voted for Kerry in 2004 was a conservative? Of course not. Does it mean that conservatives would have been more likely than fiscal conservatives to support Kerry in 2004 on account of Iraq? Probably not. But that doesn't make Iraq irrelevant to the explanation of business school faculty support for Kerry in 2004.

You can only think otherwise by thinking you know, independent of the 2-1 figure, what the distribution is of liberals and conservatives on business school faculties. If one sets aside such priors, the possibility that Iraq led some conservatives to support Kerry means we can't conclude that 2-1 support for Kerry translates to a 2-1 liberal/conservative split on business school faculties. Hence Iraq is not irrelevant to figuring out what, if any, conclusions we can draw from the 2-1 figure.
10.9.2007 12:41pm
Trevor Morrison (mail):
Sorry, "Does it mean that conservatives would have been more likely than fiscal conservatives to support Kerry in 2004 on account of Iraq?" should read:

"Does it mean that conservatives would have been more likely than liberals to support Kerry in 2004 on account of Iraq?"
10.9.2007 12:43pm
Angus:
For the person who asked, in my experience most full-time community college faculty have only Master's degrees, not Ph.D.s. There are exceptions in major urban centers on both coasts, but in the vast stretch of America in between, I'd say probably less than 25% have Ph.D.s.

Also, the meme about community colleges paying less is true in many cases, but not all. In California, community colleges pay new humanities professors in the $60k range, while the Cal State system pays in the $50k range to start.
10.9.2007 12:45pm
Crunchy Frog:
As someone who went the CC route (no ad hominems, please), I experienced an interesting phenomenon. The professors I had for night classes were all uniformly nonliberal (either conservative, or nonpolitical independent types). These were the people who had day jobs, lived in the real world, and saw their teaching jobs as a way of giving back to the community for altruistic reasons. None needed the money. Happily, since they all had day jobs, and realized that the students were in the same position, they also tended to limit the out-of-class work required.

The day classes were all general ed requirements that were not offered in the evening. The professors were all avowed liberals (and damn proud of it). English was tolerable. History and PoliSci less so. The Humanities and (God help me) Ethnic Studies were absolutely intolerable. (Did I mention that white male Christians are the source of all evil in the universe?) Not to mention the fact that every single one of them was absolutely convinced that his/her class was the most important thing you could possibly have in your day, never mind the three other classes you are taking, and trying to make a living on the side.
10.9.2007 12:57pm
OrinKerr:
Justin wrote:
::sigh:: It's election time again at VC - I wonder how many posts it will take before a collection of people who know better will justify their vote for Giuliani.
I'm curious, Justin, what does that mean? I realize that you will not be voting for the Republican candidate, and that right now the polls suggest that Giuliani is the GOP frontrunner. But why are you expecting posts that will draw a "collection" of people to justify a vote even though they "know better" -- which I gather means that they "know" that they really should be voting for Hillary Clinton, which I gather is the candidate you plan to vote for?
10.9.2007 12:59pm
frankcross (mail):
Hoosier, I'm making no moral or other judgments on CC professors.

Just noting that they don't have great alternative job opportunities, for a variety of reasons. As a subsequent poster noted, many of these profs have outside jobs while teaching. They don't even have to make the tradeoff and may be teaching for supplementary income because their outside jobs don't pay well.

So these results do not answer the self-selection theory about conservatives and academia
10.9.2007 1:07pm
John Armstrong (mail) (www):
Whenever this issue comes up I thank the academic gods that I'm in a field where there's still some semblance of objective truth by which I'm judged, rather than my political viewpoint.
10.9.2007 1:08pm
Mr L (mail):
(b)- (On how Kerry argued he would be more fiscally responsible):
From the second presidential debate:

The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules.


It was pretty clear then as now that what was meant by 'pay-as-you-go' wasn't cutting expenditures to balance the budget; rather, it was increasing taxes/killing tax cuts to cover 'deficits' while leaving the budget-breakers untouched or even expanding them. The PAYGO proposals in 2001-3 explicitly spelled this out, fully exempting entitlement programs.

Why would any economist vote for a measure like that? It just provides an excuse to raise taxes and selectively cut a few programs favored by the opposition while claiming the mantle of 'fiscal responsibility'. PAYGO's been in place since January, but spending's up, what? How many hundreds of billions? And it certainly didn't stop SCHIP.
10.9.2007 1:12pm
whit:
"The day classes were all general ed requirements that were not offered in the evening. The professors were all avowed liberals (and damn proud of it). English was tolerable. History and PoliSci less so. The Humanities and (God help me) Ethnic Studies were absolutely intolerable. (Did I mention that white male Christians are the source of all evil in the universe?) Not to mention the fact that every single one of them was absolutely convinced that his/her class was the most important thing you could possibly have in your day, never mind the three other classes you are taking, and trying to make a living on the side."

it's been noted before (as your personal experience reinforces) that ivory tower types tend to be more liberal (those seperated from the real world) and those in the real world dealing with real people (vs. theory and the abstract) tend to be more conservative.

similarly, i posted a while ago (and got slammed despite vast amounts of evidence) that profs in the humanities are more likely to be left of center, than profs in the "hard sciences" although profs in general skew to the left of the pop at large.

college campuses are about the last place you can find actual marxists - people wed to a theory that has been so resoundingly disproven, it's absurd.
10.9.2007 1:12pm
A.C.:
I wonder about three possible explanations in addition to the conservative/liberal one. Two (geography and adjunct vs. full-time) have already been mentioned, but what about sex? A lot of people I know who work for community colleges (and small colleges outside major cities in general) are fairly conservative WOMEN. They choose the work they do because they want to live where their spouses do, in smaller communities, and to have jobs that mesh well with family life. Whether or not they could make it at Harvard isn't relevant if they don't want to. Instead, they look for the best jobs available in their communities.

And who says students at community colleges are less interesting, anyway? I know people who take classes in such places who have also attended elite universities, and of course there are also many who will never do so. If you really want diversity, community college is the place to find it.
10.9.2007 1:12pm
Justin (mail):
As a preliminary, I plan on voting for Obama - I dislike Clinton quite a bit, and will only vote for her reluctantly if she wins the general election.

More to the point, as the election gets closer, I note most blogs (conservative and liberal, but mostly conservative) tend to spend less time retrospecting and more time cheerleading and/or demonizing. If you review the last few weeks of posts, only a few of them don't fall into the cheerleading/demonizing categories - and most of those, like EV's posts, are clearly nonpolitical. Compare that to a few months ago, when there was substantial discussion about contraversial policies. This at a time when there is a great deal of interesting issues going on, from the S-CHIP legislation to the new torture memos, to various wiretapping issues.

Blogposts about how stupid Naomi Klein or Sandy Berger (which do you know we can modify slightly for comedic value?) serve very little useful purposes for discussion and are simply designed to reinforce political orthadoxy and remember why our political identities are important (never mind the torture and death behind the curtain).
10.9.2007 1:14pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Trevor, the Iraq war issue explains why some people, in general, who were otherwise inclined to vote for Bush voted for Kerry, but it doesn't explain why conservative business school professors would disproportionately be in that group, and thus is irrelevant to the question of whether the 2-1 figure for Kerry somehow does not dispel the stereotype of the conservative business school professor.

On another point, it should go without saying that just because Kerry attacked Bush for being fiscally irresponsible doesn't mean that his actual proposals were more fiscally conservative.
10.9.2007 1:22pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Trevor, the Iraq war issue explains why some people, in general, who were otherwise inclined to vote for Bush voted for Kerry, but it doesn't explain why conservative business school professors would disproportionately be in that group, and thus is irrelevant to the question of whether the 2-1 figure for Kerry somehow does not dispel the stereotype of the conservative business school professor.

On another point, it should go without saying that just because Kerry attacked Bush for being fiscally irresponsible doesn't mean that his actual proposals were more fiscally conservative.
10.9.2007 1:22pm
JosephSlater (mail):
Smokey: That was quite a stinging indictment of George Bush (anyone who lived in the Vietnam era knows quite well what a stateside National Guard gig meant), Dick Cheney, and others. Quite some nerve they had letting the John Kerrys and Max Clellands of the world fight for them. But have hope! Bush and Cheney became conservatives.

More seriously, to get a job in the humanities at a decent 4-year institution is a brutal process. Six-eight years for the Ph.D., and an incredibly tight job market even for quite successful graduates -- meaning you might not get a job at all, or your first few jobs might be one-year gigs at a series of schools in obscure places. And this ain't like the law teaching market, where folks who don't get jobs or don't get what they consider acceptable jobs can just carry on being lawyers.

This discussion could use a bit more consideration of what type of person is willing to put him/herself through ALL THAT for the possibilty of a decent tenure-track teaching job a decade or more down the line after starting the PhD program. I don't know exactly where that would lead, in terms of the ideological diversity question, but I do know that the self-selecting starts early. And I do know that the people who get PhDs in humanities are -- more so than law students, as a generalization -- people who truly love the intellectual/theoretical aspects of their field.
10.9.2007 1:23pm
Brian K (mail):
Has anyone considered that professors tend to vote liberal because liberal politicians are more likely to support policies that benefit universities and professors?

I think this is one of the reasons why when split you professors along democrat/republican lines (based on who they voted for in the last presidential election) it's about 10:1 and when you split them along liberal/conservative lines (based on some sort of review of positions held) it's a little less than 3:1. Other reason above have been proposed that would partially account for this also.
10.9.2007 1:25pm
neurodoc:
Anduril: The article seems to rely on self characterization. I submit that those who describe themselves as "conservative" usually would be so described by others who are familiar with them, but that many who describe themselves as "moderate" would be described by others as quite liberal. Result: this study probably understates the liberal bias, significant though the liberal bias appears even using this flawed methodology.
I too wonder about whether there is too much reliance on self-characterization, especially on the left end of the spectrum. Are "progressives" more to the left than "liberals," or have they simply chosen the newer label for themselves in order to get away from the now stigmatized older one? (Yes, I realize the researchers did not use "progressive," but if self-identified "progressives" were forced to chose between "radical" and "liberal," would more adopt the latter than the former?) Perhaps the most important thing is rank ordering, whether one sees themselves to the left or right of others being the most informative.

I wonder whether within law some fields are disproportionately left- or right-leaning. Maybe there are more left-wing labor lawyers than right-wing ones, but in every contest each side has to be represented, right? Do a few right-wing types do all the work on behalf of employers, while many more left-wing types work on behalf of unions and individual employees? How about other areas of specialization, any in which there might be a great skewing? Are plaintiff attorneys more likely to lean left, and make political donations accordingly, because their views are in general left-leaning, or because it is in their professional self-interest to break that way? All idle musing on my part, since I have no data to support any of it, just surmise.

Within medicine, I don't know either. But if I wanted to seek out liberals, I think I would do best to go to a meeting of psychiatrists, whereas if I were after conservatives, I would go to a meeting of surgical specialists. While there is nothing inherently "liberal" in psychiatry, nor necessarily humanist (as the history of the specialty during Nazi times shows), that's the way they most often seem to break. (I don't recall any group of psychiatrists back in '64 questioning the mental stability of LBJ, though there were those who made a big splash questioning Goldwater's.)

If I go through the Gross/Simmons study, will I find detailed information about the ideologic make-up of law schools and medical schools? Any comparisons of those teaching there to those out in the world practicing? (It would be hard, wouldn't it, to say whether academic sociologists were more left-leaning than non-academic ones, because there aren't too many of the latter for comparison purposes, are there? Plenty of "free-ranching," "real world" lawyers and doctors though to permit a comparison of academics to non-academics.)
10.9.2007 1:26pm
Ben P (mail):

(2) Contrary to the stereotype of the conservative business school professor, professors of business voted 2-1 for John Kerry in '04.


Perhaps not intentionally, but it seems this is a bit of an unfair statement.

It's already been pointed out that Bush doesn't have an exemplary record of fiscal conservatism, and that may have factored in.

However, when one considers the fact that the country as a whole voted "1-1" for Bush or for Kerry (saying 50% vs 48% is quibbling) this "2-1" measurement loses force.



In this context what we see is although there is a persistent bias toward kerry, Business Professors are among the lowest bias.

If 48% of the general population voted for kerry

Physical and Biological Science +29% for kerry
Social Science +39% for kerry
Humanities +34% for Kerry
Computer Science and Engineering +10% for Kerry
Health Sciences +0% for kerry
Business +15% for kerry



Also interesting is the other.

The Social Sciences Appears to be the most Kerry Centered Group, but also had the second highest "other vote" arguably leading to the presumption they're voting for more liberal candidates.

But the Highest vote for "other", but the second lowest Kerry Centered is computer science and Engineering.

Who are the computer scientists voting for? it might be libertarian.
10.9.2007 1:34pm
Ben P (mail):
Other Tidbits I found interesting


Tenure’s value: Strong majorities see tenure as a good thing but also see it as sometimes protecting incompetent faculty members.


Any bets on the age differentiation here?



Avoiding sides in Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Asked if they sympathized more with the Israelis or Palestinians, 20.9 percent said Israelis and 10.7 percent said Palestinians. But 51.3 percent said they sympathized with both and 17.1 percent said that they sympathized with neither.


I'm not sure what this means except that academics often talk both sides of a problem, and that's more or less a given.
10.9.2007 1:38pm
Bias against conservatives is justified (mail):
I hate to say it. This might sound elitist. But not all ideas are created equal.

Conservative ideas just are not as good as liberal ideas. To buy into conservative ideology, you have to be less intelligent. Period.

What is the conservative answer to all problems? Personal responsibility, right? It doesn't take a genius to come up with the same answer to every problem. Conservatives gravitate towards simply answers, because they lack the intelligence to recognize that different situations call for different tools.

How often do you hear conservatives try to use simple supply and demand curves and adopt the simple assumptions that economists make and apply them to all areas of life. Basically, the world-view of the typical conservative is very simplistic.

Now, there are exceptions. Like David Bernstein. But then, he is a libertarian, not a conservative.

For all of you bitching about bias against conservatives, please explain why libertarians are much more likely to be represented in academia than conservatives/ Is it because the liberals who supposedly dominate academia prefer libertarians, who we tend to perceive as self-centered narcissists, to conservatives, who we tend to perceive as neanderthals?

The bottom-line is that conservatives are overrepresented among the less intelligent. (And, intelligence, by the way, is something that can change in a given person over time.) Why do you think that the South and the Bible belt vote overwhelmingly for Republicans?

In a meritocracy, there would be less conservatives and libertarians in academia. Not only that, there would be less conservatives than libertarians, even though conservatives greatly outnumber libertarians in the real world. There is something about libertarian ideology that draws people with a certain limited sort of intelligence. Guess what, this is exactly how it is in the real world.

We don't need ideological diversity in our universities. What we need is a meritocracy. And conservative ideas just don't cut it.
10.9.2007 1:39pm
JosephSlater (mail):
Neurodoc:

I'll take a stab at the "labor lawyer" question. Admittedly, this is based on anecdotal experience, but I did practice labor law for over a decade, and I've been training labor lawyers as a law school prof. since 1999.

My impression is that, while there are both ideological types and non-ideological types on both sides, there are probably more ideological types on the union side. That's simply because the employer side pays a lot more. So, if you are interested in labor law in a purely intellectual way, or if you just like working in labor relations but have strong preferences for a side, why not work for the side that pays more? Also, union side folks usually work in firms or institutions that are dedicated to representing unions (and, increasingly, employees in employment law matters), while management-side folks often just got a job at a big firm that did lots of types of law, and got placed into the labor/employment "section."

Also, when I say "ideological" above, I mean "pro-union": I've met folks who were pro-union but conservative on other issues; and I've met folks who were anti-union but relatively liberal on other issues. Plus, in my experience, working in "the real world" for a sustained period often -- although not always -- takes the most radical edges off people on both sides. Eventually, many-most practitioners realize that there are some good folks/arguments on the other side.

Still, as a generalization, I would say management-side attorneys are more conservative than union-side attorneys. More than you wanted to hear on this small issue, I'm sure.
10.9.2007 1:45pm
JosephSlater (mail):
Um, second para. 6th line should read "NO strong preferences" -- sorry.
10.9.2007 1:46pm
whit:
lol

Troll-o-meter
for above poster

Mediocre-------------prettygood----------------kickass!
1-------------------------5-----------------------10
--^--
10.9.2007 1:47pm
Publius Endures (mail) (www):
Ben P.
I would strongly suggest the "other" in the social sciences is largely from economists voting for the LP/Constitution Party. Nader was listed separately, and the social sciences had a larger than average Naderite contingent, so unless they were all voting in places where the Communist Party is actually on the ballot, I don't know who else a left-wing social scientist would vote for. By 2004, I would think the average conservative economist had largely given up on the Bush Administration, but felt that Kerry would have been no better. Free Market economics being what it is, the LP/Constitution Party would be a natural landing spot for the economists.

This is all speculation, of course.

I do have an honest question for someone in academia: does personal politics really play a role (for teaching/publishing purposes) outside of the social sciences and humanities?
10.9.2007 1:52pm
DCP:
(1) There is a much higher percentage of conservatives teaching at (relatively low-paying, low prestige) community colleges than elsewhere. So much for the oft-heard theory that conservatives are so scarce at elite schools because they are selfish, ambitious, money-grubbers who lack the inclination to give up the "good life" to pursue the "life of the mind."

I'm not very familiar with JUCO/C.C. academia, but it seems that many teachers there do so on a part-time or nightly basis, while also maintaining their outside careers (as opposed to fulltime professors). Maybe they feel an obligation to give back to the younger generation. Maybe they are just scratching a vocational itch. Maybe they like the supplemental income. Maybe they are easing into retirement. Either way it undercuts your point that conservatives do not avoid academia in favor of more lucrative opportunities in the private sector since many of them seem to be maintaining some sort of financial ties to the private sector.

As a sidenote, I've also had many people tell me that the best teachers they ever had were those who taught from the perspective of their many years of employment in the "real world" as opposed to the career academics. That was generally my experience as well. And it seems to be particularly true of law school.
10.9.2007 1:58pm
Ben P (mail):

I would strongly suggest the "other" in the social sciences is largely from economists voting for the LP/Constitution Party.


I guess that's a possibility.

I was under the assumption that Economics Professors fell under Business rather than Social Sciences.

At least where I went to school the Economics professors were in the Business Building with Business and Accounting professors as well.

Sociology, Anthropology Et all were in the same building with History and Political Science. (English had it's own that it shared with the languages)

It also seemed that way because in my experience Economics professors were among the most conservative groups of professors. There were also a significant number of conservative professors in the Math and Comp-Sci building, but I didn't spend enough time there to get to know more than a few of them.
10.9.2007 2:05pm
JosephSlater (mail):
Whit: I'm going to hope/assume your "troll" meter was meant for the "conservatives are stupid" guy, not me.

More broadly, I wouldn't assume that the world of community college profs is so entirely distinct from 4-year institutions. Yeah, the profs at the Ivy Leagues probably never did a stint at community colleges. But, at least based on the folks I know, a decent number of people at respectable colleges across the country have taught at community colleges. The teaching market is really amazingly tight.
10.9.2007 2:08pm
whit:
joseph, you are correct.
10.9.2007 2:21pm
Smokey:
JosephSlater:
Whit: I'm going to hope/assume your "troll" meter was meant for the "conservatives are stupid" guy, not me.
That's the impression I got, too. Although I could be wrong, when it's taken into account that JosephSlater conflates someone who served honorably in the military with draft dodgers who hid out and refused to serve - or with John Kerry for that matter, who, it should be remembered, went into hiding for a month - just as soon as the other Swift Boat sailors pointed out the Vietnam HE-RO's fabulous military service inventions.

That month of being AWOL during a close election campaign was impossible to overcome, and Kerry lost a very close election as a result. He might even have won despite the Swift Boat veterans, but for one other thing: unlike Bush, Kerry consistently refused to release his service records by signing the SF-180. Many people believe Kerry refuses to disclose his military record because he received a Dishonorable Discharge from the Navy for traveling to Hanoi and giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

But hey, Kerry can easily refute those charges. All he needs to do is sign the 180.

Don't hold your breath.
10.9.2007 2:42pm
Publius Endures (mail) (www):
Feeding the troll:
The ones who tend to reduce everything to a supply and demand curve are libertarians, not conservatives- and we're damn proud of it!

If you support the War on Drugs or morals legislation, you are disregarding supply and demand curves- not obsessing over them!
10.9.2007 3:27pm
JosephSlater (mail):
Smokey:

Beyond your bashing of Kerry, who actually served in Vietnam, killed an enemy soldier and got wounded there, I note that you don't defend the draft-dodging of Bush and Cheney (again, in Bush's case, we all know what National Guard service meant back then). Since your original point was that draft-dodgers all wound up liberal, I thought you would be pleased with these significant counter-examples.

Since this is pretty far afield of the original point of this thread, I'll stop here.
10.9.2007 4:29pm
Latinist:
So when the dean gives a department the green light to hire an assistant prof in, say, 19th Century US history, the ad can be written to say "Field open, but desired subfields include Queer Theory, Gender and Race, and/or cultural history." That's pretty much like the old "No Irish Need Apply" signs. It is code.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Isn't it probable that the department really does want someone who knows about Queer Theory? Of course, that mostly excludes conservatives, but I suspect that, if they did turn up a really good queer theorist who wanted to abolish the minimum wage, have prayer in public schools, and send more troops to Iraq, they wouldn't rule him out. And I certainly doubt that a smart, liberal, military historian would have much of a chance.

So a part of the problem may not be any kind of disguised plot to keep out conservatives, but just the fact that the many things liberals and conservatives disagree on include, e.g., the most important and effective ways to study history. (Of course, this doesn't yet explain why liberals seem to be so thoroughly winning this kind of argument within academia.)

And it's not an easily soluble problem. After all, you can't really tell people, in hiring professors, to discount what they think of the value of the work potential hires are doing, right?
10.9.2007 4:55pm
Anon1ms (mail):
"So American colleges and universities had a very large influx of draft-dodgers in the late 60's."

Including our last two presidents.
10.9.2007 5:12pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
As a full time community college prof. I'll admit that we are certainly relatively "low prestige." However I seriously wonder whether we are relatively "low pay." CCs, as far as I know, don't tend to pay their business dept. profs (where I teach) much higher than the other depts. (like humanities or liberal arts) as some schools do. Given that a newly minted PHD in business averages a 6-figure salarly in private practice, and given that one can do much less in the "real world" with a PHD in English or Art History, it's my understanding that business profs. tend to make significantly more than their liberal arts counterparts at most 4-year and graduate schools.

Where I teach, there is not a great difference between what the business and non-business profs make (we make modest 5-figure salaries). And as such, we have a shortage of PHDs in business (though we have a number of JDs, EDDs and folks who hold numerous Masters degrees, or JDs + other graduate degrees like myself).

We have plenty of PHDs in our liberal arts (and other) divisions. And except for business profs, from what I understand, our profs get paid comparably to 4-year colleges in the area. In fact, we pay more (and offer more generous benefits) than many private 4-year colleges.
10.9.2007 10:16pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
Addendum:

Also, some private liberal arts colleges do not pay their business profs. the big 6-figures that law schools do, and some community colleges pay their business profs better than private liberal arts colleges do.
10.9.2007 10:19pm
nitpicker (mail):
Have you checked the background on these conservatives who are teaching at "relatively low-paying, low prestige...community colleges"? Community colleges often hire "professors" with only a master's degree. And one also has to consider whether or not those conservatives have the same educational and publishing backgrounds as those teaching at other colleges. So, if there is a large amount of conservatives using their PhDs from upper-tier universities to teach at community colleges and publish renowned books and articles, then your point is valid. If, however, there are a bunch of conservatives with MBAs from Chico State or the University of Bridgeport, then they've probably just risen as high as they'll go.
10.10.2007 2:08pm
Chimaxx (mail):
Actually, there is a sensible point that the troll posting hints at. There is one significant difference between community colleges and universities that feeds into this: Community colleges are generally about teaching,a nd the professor is judged by the strength of his classroom performance. At universities, publishing also plays a role. Most professors have to do substantial scholarship. And--especially in the humanities and the social sciences--liberal-associated approches (feminist theory, queer studies, etc.) are richer veins for new research. Certainly there's plenty of ore to be found in the old well-mined conservative-associated approaches. But they are well mined, and the larger. more obvious veins have already been well-tapped. The newer fields make it a lot easier to be sure you're not inadvertently copying someone else's homework.
10.10.2007 2:54pm
nitpicker (mail):
Odd. I thought I was just posing a question, not being a troll. Sure, the tone may have been somewhat wiseass, but my question still stands: Do these conservatives earn their way into prestigious colleges and stick it out to get PhDs so they can then teach at prestigious colleges vice community colleges? If they don't then the "oft-heard argument" that conservatives "lack the inclination to give up the 'good life' to pursue the 'life of the mind'" might actually be reinforced by this study rather than refuted.

(As an aside: It's funny to me that, on conservative sites, a troll is anyone who departs from orthodoxy, whereas liberal sites usually reserve that moniker for those who drop in and spout all-you-dang-liberals-are-wrong,-BUSH-RULEZ-style comments.)
10.10.2007 3:19pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
Nitpicker:

Given how competitive academia is, the overwhelming majority of folks hired as full time profs. at community colleges are credentialed to teach at 4-year college. We don't have many (though we do have some) PHDs from the IVYs (it's obvious that if you have one of those you probably secure a job teaching at a 4-year college). However, most of our new hires (except for in the business div) have PHDs, most from good 2nd and 3rd tier schools like Temple, Rutgers, Lehigh, Penn State and so on.

It's really tough for us in the business div. to secure PHDs in business given that we don't pay 6-figure salaries. But we've got me who has JD, MBA, and LL.M. degrees from Temple, another JD from Rutgers, our chair has a JD from NYU. Our econ coordinator has three Masters degrees -- one from Temple, one from Penn, and the other from I can't remember. These are the typical credentials of community college professors in business depts. Not "MBAs" from Podunk College. These jobs are almost as coveted as are positions at 4-year colleges, and almost as hard to secure.
10.10.2007 10:46pm
nitpicker (mail):
Thanks, Jon. Very interesting stuff. Where I grew up (the middle of Kansas), "JuCo" teachers were considered to be high school teachers who just couldn't pass the state teaching certification. I am illuminated.
10.10.2007 11:49pm