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Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week at George Washington University:

So the conservative Young America's Foundation is putting on Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week at college campuses, including GW. According to the Washington Post (Oct. 9), "[Sergio] Gor [the group's GW student leader] said writer David Horowitz will speak, 'The Path to 9/11,' a TV mini-series, will be shown, and there will be a panel discussion featuring people who escaped the regime in Iran. 'One gal got flogged 300 times for wearing nail polish,' he said."

Then Monday morning, the following poster came up:

The university took the posters down, and said the university "will not tolerate[] the dissemination of fliers or other documents that vilify any religious, ethnic, or racial group." Student association Executive Vice President Brand Kroeger called for "expulsion" of those who put up the posters.

Now it turns out that the poster was put up by student critics of the Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week event. The students claim that the posters were supposed to be pretty clear satire — quite plausible, given the "lasers in eye" and "peg-leg for smuggling and heroin," and the "Brought to you by Students for Conservativo-Fascism Awareness." They also keep talking about how the Islamo-Fascism Awareness event is supposedly "racis[t]," without much of an explanation. Islamofascism is a religious and political ideology, and deserves condemnation; note also that the people who are killed and oppressed by Islamofascists are, of course, overwhelmingly of the same ethnic groups as the Islamofascists themselves.

In any case, thought I'd pass along this little academic farce. Thanks to Dave Sidhu for the pointer to the GW Hatchet stories.

Related Posts (on one page):

  1. Young America's Foundation Letter About the GW Poster Affair:
  2. Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week at George Washington University:
Mike& (mail):
That poster was hilarious. Anyone who could not see it wasn't meant to be taken seriously, like the "Muslim" depicted in the poster, also has a peg leg. The peg leg, however, is located in a different part of that person's body. Seriously, how could a person not tell those posters were fake?

Maybe the poster should have said that Muslims don't have laser beam eyes, but rather, have sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads.
10.10.2007 3:07pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Not surprisingly, the first admin activity was by a Student Activities Center 'crat who wrote to a conservative student, presumably affiliated with YAF, demanding promises of future good behavior.

I think this needs to be in the post about ethics for university administrators. Subfolder--how to screw the usual suspects for the usual no-reason and not get caught, while pandering to the actual perps.
10.10.2007 3:12pm
Mike& (mail):
Richard Aubrey: I agree with your sentiments.

Will the administration go after the "pranksters"? Will Brand Kroeger call for the students' expulsion?

If not, why not?

I realize the posters were intended to make fun of people who hold stereotypes about Muslims. But some people obviously took the poster differently and were "offended." Should the intent of the speaker matter?

Will an investigation occur? Will these distinctions be discussed? Or will everyone just say, "Oh, it wasn't the conservative kids who posted this stuff, so we'll just forget about it."
10.10.2007 3:27pm
rbj:
It is quite obvious from the "lasers in eyes" that this poster was satire. Everyone knows that Muslims use laser cats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr-5kz9pWo8
10.10.2007 3:33pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Mike&.

I have no doubt that any complaining by the YAF about having been slimed will be taken as indication of islamophobia and sanctions will be severe.
As to the perps....what, you want to make a case out of a prank?
10.10.2007 3:34pm
Justin (mail):
When I saw this, I knew it was written by a liberal with poor taste. I think there should be some punishment (short of expulsion) for the carelessness of the satire, which confused the (relatively stupid) media and administration.
10.10.2007 3:43pm
buzz (mail):
"I realize the posters were intended to make fun of people who hold stereotypes about Muslims. But some people obviously took the poster differently and were "offended." Should the intent of the speaker matter? "

I disagree. The posters were to make fun of people whom the persons who put up the posters stereotype as people who hold stereotypes about Muslims. And the people who were fooled held the same stereotypes towards the conservative students as the people who put up the posters. Whole lot of sterotyping going on, but it is the university approved, good type so nothing much will happen. Islamofascists? Still not discussed.
10.10.2007 3:46pm
M. Simon (mail) (www):
Reminds of the The Book of Esther.

So what should be done? Expel them. It is only fair. Hate speech should not be tolerated. Even satirical hate speech.

Har.
10.10.2007 3:51pm
Hoosier:
"There has been a murder. Round up the usual suspects!"
10.10.2007 3:52pm
Tom Hanna (www):
It's funny. It's actually good to see liberal college students with a sense of humor instead of just bitterness. The really funny thing is that the poster would be perfectly effective as a way of pointing out that people who oppose Islamofascism really don't hate all Muslims. Believing that Osama bin Laden and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are threats to peace and freedom isn't the same as hating Muslims and the "typical Muslim" of the poster just proves how ridiculous saying they are the same is.

And no one should be expelled. College campuses should be bastions of free speech, not the refuge of scoundrels who can't handle it.
10.10.2007 4:00pm
Passing By:
Islamofascism is a religious and political ideology, and deserves condemnation; note also that the people who are killed and oppressed by Islamofascists are, of course, overwhelmingly of the same ethnic groups as the Islamofascists themselves.

It's fun to throw around made-up words like "Islamofascist", but let's be honest. It's like calling somebody the "bogeyman". It's a label meant to make the target seem more menacing and threatening, but (unless you strip the word "fascist" of any historical context or meaning) the label itself is a fiction. If you are willing to redefine the word "fascist" as meaning "totalitarian", well, you could use the proper word. But Islamototalitarian isn't scary, so who cares about accuracy, right?
10.10.2007 4:03pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Tom.
Easy for you to say, now that the perps aren't YAF.

In fact, I predicted that response several comments up.
10.10.2007 4:03pm
Shelby (mail):
Now it turns out that the poster was put up by student critics

Was anyone ever in doubt about this? How could someone who did not immediately realize that even get into GW?
10.10.2007 4:11pm
jim2 (mail):
Nothing will happen to the posters. Only if they were conservatives would it be appropriate to expel them. Since they were liberals and/or Muslims, it was obviously satire and protected free speech.

Instead, the conservative organization should be excoriated for having driven the Muslims into such seething fits that they had no recourse but to post them. Oh, wait, that's already happened, hasn't it?

Well, maybe the posters should be punished a teensy bit, so that the University can say they were. You know, like Columbia did with the students who mugged Gilchrist, before they genuflected to Ahmadinejad. One possible sanction might be to revoke their privilege for the next semester to operate cars on campus with greater than eight cylinders.
10.10.2007 4:13pm
WHOI Jacket:
They are/were going to make the YAF swear/sign some sort of Multicultural awareness pap in order to proceed as a student group. For something they didn't do! That enough is chilling.

Via HotAir:


. Bridgette Behling, the assistant director of the Student Activities Center at GWU, wrote an email to one of the conservative students urging them to disavow hate speech that may originate from any future Foundation events: "due to the inflammatory nature of today's events [falsified posters], as a good faith effort on behalf of YAF, it is important that YAF drafts a statement which states that you will not allow hate speech to be a part of any of YAF's events, literature, written or verbal communication planned for Islamofacism Week. This statement should also include your plan for preventing these things from happening as well as the consequences for these things happening. It is important that we have this document should any further incidents occur as we move forward."
10.10.2007 4:30pm
Mr. X (www):
You know, I'd take this threat of "islamofacism" more seriously if, say, I'd ever seen it used by a non-critic.

Not to be a prescriptivist, but using that term makes one sound like a bedwetter.
10.10.2007 4:35pm
Russ (mail):
I agree that this is protected satire.

The problem is that if the YAF had been responsible, they would have been expelled, and no explanation would have sufficed.
10.10.2007 4:37pm
samuil (mail):
who are islamofascists? And why ?

Who invented that false expression? Who is guilty in fear mongering ?
10.10.2007 4:37pm
Virginian:


Now it turns out that the poster was put up by student critics


Was anyone ever in doubt about this? How could someone who did not immediately realize that even get into GW?


I completely agree. Brand Kroeger (!) needs to take a remedial reading comprehension class.
10.10.2007 4:37pm
jim:
When I see a story like this I just wonder what happenned to our ability to combat bad ideas with good ideas.

So what if this hadn't been satire? What if some group of students really wanted to broadcast that it hated Muslims. Isn't that the sort of thing you fix with information and with counter-argument?

Don't you reassure Muslims that they are welcomed by having normal students express their distaste for the message, not through some action by campus officials that no one notices until "incidents" occur?

Wouldn't the exchange have educated everyone and prepared them for the real world? What are these kids going to do when they are out in the real world and their is no college administrator to run to every time someone offends them? They'll have to deal with it on their own and there's no guarentee they will have developed the skills to do so.

Or alternately they won't be able to deal with it, so they'll be forced to spend the rest of their lives in academia where there will always be an administration to protect them from having to come up with counter arguments to the people with views they dislike.
10.10.2007 4:50pm
CrazyTrain (mail):
Islamofascism is a religious and political ideology, and deserves condemnation; note also that the people who are killed and oppressed by Islamofascists are, of course, overwhelmingly of the same ethnic groups as the Islamofascists themselves.

Professor Volokh, you've got to be kidding me. What is "Islamofascism"? Why is that a useful term for what it is? Please provide some examples of prominent "Islamofascists." What is the connection between "Islamofascism" and Italian fascism for example. Would you as a Jew be offended by references to the Likud (a direct descendant of the Jewish Revisionist movement) as Judeofascists? Would you be offended by references to former Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir (a member of Etzel, a group formed by a man who in the middle of World War II wrote a letter to Hitler proposing an alliance between right-wing Zionists and the Nazis) as a Judeonazi?

I support free speech, and anyone is free to use the term Islamofascist as much as they want. But those who do so reveal themselves as idiots completely unfamiliar with extremist Islam, and also needlessly alienate a key ally we need in our struggle against such extremism, i.e. Muslims who are not extremists.
10.10.2007 4:50pm
CrazyTrain (mail):
using that term makes one sound like a bedwetter

Exactly. The same people who use the term are the ones who literally think that we are in grave danger of America being turned into an Islamic state in the near future (see, e.g., Clayton Cramer's completely serious comments about not wanting to vote for Hillary because he did not want his granddaughter to wear a Burka and he did not want to live his last days as a 2nd class citizen because he would not convert to Islam). Eugene Volokh of all people ought to know that the existential threat posed by the USSR during the Cold War was extremely real, and much more serious than the supposed existential threat fundamentalist Islam poses to the United States. Yet compare our dealings with the USSR during the Cold War to the way these bedwetters talk about "Islamofascism" today. Wow.
10.10.2007 4:54pm
jim:
And a note about the term Islamofascist: in the Religious Studies biz the prefered term is Islamism for the ideology and Islamist for an adherant of it. I suspect that the term "Islamism" predates the term "Isamofascism" since the former was in wide use before 9/11.
10.10.2007 4:55pm
sbron:
So how is an Islamofacism awareness week conference
at a University any worse in terms of stereotyping
and exclulsion than the following:

http://www.uccs.edu/~wpc/

(The above link is to the yearly white privilege
conference at Colorado State.)
10.10.2007 4:56pm
Elliot123 (mail):
CrazyTrain: "But those who do so reveal themselves as idiots completely unfamiliar with extremist Islam, and also needlessly alienate a key ally we need in our struggle against such extremism, i.e. Muslims who are not extremists."

Interesting. Are any non-extremist Muslims offended by calling Al Queda Islamofascist? Why? Concern with linguistic precision in English?
10.10.2007 4:56pm
sbron:
Sorry, the above conference is actually at the
University of Colorado, Colorado Springs campus.
You have to see the "Got Privilege?" t-shirts
at the above website.
10.10.2007 4:57pm
ejo:
bedwetter-that's the new battle cry of the left. they are hell on wheels versus Republicans and Bush but against people that kill thousands of their countrymen, not so much. non-bedwetters have the courage to ignore what occurred and engage in parsing of language as to what an "islamofascist" is instead of recognizing we have a global enemy that would like to up the body count. thank god we have people with their courage and wisdom.
10.10.2007 5:09pm
Hoosier:
If "fascism" is to mean anything other than "You are to my right and I don't like you," then it needs to refer to a sahred set of qualities. The subservience of the individual to the state. Regimentation of public life. Racial/ethnic cohesion. Worship of a charismatic leader who is generally called simply "The Leader." (E.g., Der Fuehrer, Il Duce, El Caudillo) Belief in a serious internal threat from disloyal elements.

This doesn't strike me as a good description of the Taliban regime. So I won't use "Islamofascism." (However, I *will* use the phrase Islamo-assmonkies.)
10.10.2007 5:10pm
CrazyTrain (mail):
Are any non-extremist Muslims offended by calling Al Queda Islamofascist? Why?

Eugene's colleague, Dr. Khaled Abou el Fadl has criticized use of the term for similar reasons that I just did. Professor Volokh should perhaps talk to him before posting such utter crap about which he knows nothing.
10.10.2007 5:11pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Let's talk a bit about Cramer's "bedwetting".

Presume an attractive young woman is walking through a shopping mall. Some Muslim hoodlums assault her for being improperly dressed.

First. Women going to the mall are going to take precautions by dress--or not go--whether the perps are arrested or not.

Second, presume the perps are jailed. See First.

Third. Presume a Muslim on the jury decides that the boys were not being all that bad, or that Muslim solidarity trumps the law. Or fears coming home after voting for guilty.

See First.

Step at a time, while the folks who don't have to worry--like the gated-community activists who insist on low-income housing in (somebody else's) neighborhood--sneer at the bedwetters who are annoyed.

If somebody can explain--without reference to islamophobia--how the scenario is literally impossible, then call up Europe. They are being led astray.
10.10.2007 5:12pm
volokh groupie:
at the very least these posters promoted hate towards a political group on campus, unfairly misrepresented and libeled the views of that group and showed a complete lack of respect and care with respect to their peers

then again, one look at kokash's blog at you can tell we aren't dealing with the nicest or brightest bulbs
10.10.2007 5:12pm
loki13 (mail):

Interesting. Are any non-extremist Muslims offended by calling Al Queda Islamofascist? Why? Concern with linguistic precision in English?



1. Al Qaeda is not islamofascist (islamo-jerks, islamo-terrorists, islamo-delusionsofgrandeur-
andrestoringacaliphatethroughindiscriminate-
actsofviolenceagainstciviliantargets is fine)

2. The question presents a framing issue. If the term islamofascist was used as a mere perjorative to describe Al Qaeda, it would be wrong, but less objectionable. But it is used to label "Moslems we currently don't like." Ahmedinejad? Check. Taliban? Check. Assad? Sure. Hamas? Why not. Hezboallah? Okily-dokily. PLO/Fatah? Okay. Opponents of Pakistan's current dictator? Mos Def.

Sunni? Shia? Alawite? Druze? Religious? Kinda Secular? Don't like the US? Don't like their own government which is allied with the US? Don't like Israel?

All Islamofascists. Kinda problematic.
10.10.2007 5:23pm
Elliot123 (mail):
CrazyTrain: "Eugene's colleague, Dr. Khaled Abou el Fadl has criticized use of the term for similar reasons that I just did. Professor Volokh should perhaps talk to him before posting such utter crap about which he knows nothing."

And have we lost the support of Dr. Al Fadl in the struggle against Al Queda? Does imprecision in the use of the term Islamofascist cause him to withdraw support?
10.10.2007 5:23pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Just to spread a bit of blame around so that GWU doesn't feel all alone in its anti-conservative, pro-left/islamonutcase pandering...

Disgraced Congresscritter Mary Rose Oaker, now working for an Arab-American relations group, is trying to intimidate an Ohio university into forbidding Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week.

And in Texas, a female student with, apparently, no connection to very much at all is being harassed due to the admin's mistaken--but if you're a college administrator, going after the defenseless is never a mistake--view that she's got something to do with Islamo-fascism Awareness Week.

Nope. No problems on campus. Just ask the guys at VC.
10.10.2007 5:33pm
wooga:
"Fascism" has a real historical meaning, particularly in the Italian context. It is explicitly against free market capitalism, calling for the state control of industry. Osama himself is virulently anti-corporation and anti-capitalism. He is both a fascist and an Islamist.

Also, there are also examples of the nazi brand German fascism among Islamists. Key examples were Arafat's uncle and the Handschar SS division in WW2.

And to save some considerable embarrassment to a typical lefty, Mussolini never said "fascism = corporatism." That is an urban legend promulgated by anti-capitalists. Also, the "14 characteristics of fascism" that is popular on lefty sites is also a fraud. The purported author "Dr. Britt" is a fake. But unfortunately, most lefties are easily duped into believing a fanciful made up definition of fascism, just so they can run around screaming "boosh is a bigger fascist than Osama!"
10.10.2007 5:38pm
Patrick Joy:
The students who posted the flier should be punished short of expulsion. They miss represnted themselves and defamed a campus organization. They also misused the universities logo.

If it was not satire the students would be punished. The students stepped over the line and should face the consequences.
10.10.2007 5:40pm
Mr. X (www):
"Fascism" has a real historical meaning, particularly in the Italian context. It is explicitly against free market capitalism, calling for the state control of industry. Osama himself is virulently anti-corporation and anti-capitalism. He is both a fascist and an Islamist.


It is more accurate to say that some of bin Laden's views are congruous with some of the views of historical fascists. However, he is still at core an Islamist.
10.10.2007 5:44pm
ejo:
notice how those being so bold in their use of terms like "bedwetter" say nothing of substance in their posts? if the term "islamofascist" offends them, they seem to offer no substitute and say nothing of substance on the ideology or its evil other than the fact the name somehow offends them. it's almost like they are offering talking points they got somewhere? could it be?
10.10.2007 5:45pm
Mr L (mail):
CrazyTrain: Professor Volokh, you've got to be kidding me. What is "Islamofascism"? Why is that a useful term for what it is? Please provide some examples of prominent "Islamofascists." What is the connection between "Islamofascism" and Italian fascism for example.

You've got to be kidding me -- there's no way someone could possibly miss the point by this much without feigning idiocy.

Look, 'fascist' in English can mean in the literal sense, but it's also popularly used as shorthand for totalitarianism -- which a lot of the nastier Islamist movements definitely are. Just pick up a dictionary, man.

I'm curious why you consider whining about how what is basically an insult isn't sufficiently precise an effective argument a worthwhile argument to make. Gives the impression you can't vocalize your real objection, so you latch onto a technically correct but actually worthless one and hammer it into the ground.

Would you be offended by references to former Israeli PM Yitzhak Shamir as a Judeonazi?

Yeah, but there's a special reason for that. See if you can find out what it is!
10.10.2007 5:49pm
Mr. X (www):
The students who posted the flier should be punished short of expulsion. They miss represnted[sic] themselves and defamed a campus organization. They also misused the universities logo.

If it was not satire the students would be punished. The students stepped over the line and should face the consequences.


Why should satire, especially pretty good and funny satire like this, be punished? Can you explain how the chilling effect that punishment would create would be outweighed by some other benefit to the university or society?

This whole thing is creating an unholy alliance of crybabies and bedwetters that hastens our descent into the horrors of Waterworld. Stop this madness before Kevin Costner comes back to pass judgment on us all!
10.10.2007 5:49pm
samuil (mail):
The term "Islamofascist" is utterly without meaning, but packed with emotional explosives. It is a propaganda creation worthy Dr. Goebbels, and the latest expression of the big lie technique being used by neocons in Washington's propaganda war against its enemies in the Muslim World.


Both the terms "terrorism" and "fascist" have been so abused and overused that they have lost any original meaning. The best modern definition I've read of fascism comes in former Columbia University Professor Robert Paxton's superb 2004 book, The Anatomy of Fascism.

Paxton defines fascism's essence, which he aptly terms its "emotional lava" as: 1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one's group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign "contamination."

Fascism demands a succession of wars, foreign conquests, and national threats to keep the nation in a state of fear, anxiety and patriotic hypertension. Those who disagree are branded ideological traitors. All successful fascists regimes, Paxton points out, allied themselves to traditional conservative parties, and to the military-industrial complex.

Highly conservative and militaristic regimes are not necessarily fascist, says Paxton. True fascism requires relentless aggression abroad and a semi-religious adoration of the regime at home.

None of the many Muslim groups opposing US-British control of the Mideast fit Paxton's definitive analysis. The only truly fascist group ever to emerge in the Mideast was Lebanon's Maronite Christian Phalange Party in the 1930's which, ironically, became an ally of Israel's rightwing in the 1980's.

It is grotesque watching the Bush Administration maintain the ludicrous pretense they are re-fighting World War II. The only similarity between that era and today is the cultivation of fear, war fever and racist-religious hate by US neoconservatives and America's religious far right, which is now boiling with hatred for anything Muslim.

Under the guise of fighting a "third world war" against "Islamic fascism," America's far right is infecting its own nation with the harbingers of WWII totalitarianism.

In the western world, hatred of Muslims has become a key ideological hallmark of rightwing parties. We see this overtly in the United States, France, Italy, Holland, Denmark, Poland, and, most lately, Canada, and more subtly expressed in Britain and Belgium. The huge uproar over blatantly anti-Muslim cartoons published in Denmark laid bare the seething Islamophobia spreading through western society.

There is nothing in any part of the Muslim World that resembles the corporate fascist states of western history. In fact, clan and tribal-based traditional Islamic society, with its fragmented power structures, local loyalties, and consensus decision-making, is about as far as possible from western industrial state fascism.

The Muslim World is replete with brutal dictatorships, feudal monarchies, and corrupt military-run states, but none of these regimes, however deplorable, fits the standard definition of fascism. Most, in fact, are America's allies.

Nor do underground Islamic militant groups ("terrorists" in western terminology). They are either focused on liberating land from foreign occupation, overthrowing "un-Islamic" regimes, driving western influence from their region, or imposing theocracy based on early Islamic democracy.

Claims by fevered neoconservatives that Muslim radicals plan to somehow impose a worldwide Islamic caliphate are lurid fantasies worthy of Dr. Fu Manchu and yet another example of the big lie technique that worked so well over Iraq.

As Prof. Andrew Bosworth notes in an incisive essay on so-called Islamic fascism, "Islamic fundamentalism is a transnational movement inherently opposed to the pseudo-nationalism necessary for fascism."

However, there are plenty of modern fascists. But to find them, you have to go to North America and Europe. These neo-fascists advocate "preemptive attacks against all potential enemies," grabbing other nation's resources, overthrowing uncooperative governments, military dominance of the world, hatred of Semites (Muslims in this case), adherence to biblical prophecies, hatred of all who fail to agree, intensified police controls, and curtailment of "liberal" political rights.

They revel in flag-waving, patriotic melodrama, demonstrations of military power, and use the mantle of patriotism to feather the nests of the military-industrial complex, colluding legislators and lobbyists. They urge war to the death, fought, of course, by other people's children. They have turned important sectors of the media into propaganda organs and brought the Pentagon largely under their control.

Now, the neoconservatives are busy whipping up war against Syria and Iran to keep themselves in power and maintain the political dynamics of this 21st century revival of fascism.

The real modern fascists are not in the Muslim World, but Washington. The neocons screaming fascist the loudest, are the true fascists themselves. It's a pity that communist and leftist propaganda so debased the term "neo-fascist" that it has become almost meaningless. Because that is what we should be calling the so-called neocons, for that is what they really are.


E.Margolis
10.10.2007 5:50pm
Zed (www):
Given that no action is being taken against the conservatives for posting what could easily be taken for the vilification of an ethnic or religious group, I don't see why there seems to be some sense of biased handling when their opponents post a parody.

Let's be honest here: by mere virtue of tying it to Islam, focusing on "Islamofascism" (which another commenter has already pointed out is a close to meaningless term) is fairly racist. We have more "Christofascist" terrorist attacks and threats in the U.S. than "Islamofascist" (abortion clinic attacks alone account for a couple bombing attempts per year and hundreds of other crimes). Minus one gigantic outlier, unlikely to ever be seen again, there are probably fewer fatalities from Islamic terrorism as well (I'd have to check the numbers on that, though -- I don't have a clear memory of how many actual deaths have resulted from either source). Should we start holding "Christofascism Week" events? More to the point, would anyone actually tolerate a "Christofascism Week" event? From my perspective, a bunch of students (not necessarily conservative, by the way, unless someone knows something about that group that isn't posted) wanted to spend a week making an example of Islam, and some opposing students (again, not necessarily liberal) with a sense of humor called them on what they felt was a heavily racist motive.

Fair enough, both sides. It's an academic environment, and that sort of debate is generally healthy. I think the university had a valid reason for concern in that the parody was unfortunately not clearly labeled as such, but given that the parody side had to take down their ads, and the "Islamo-Fascism Awareness" side didn't, this doesn't come off as an example of bias against "conservatives". It comes off as bias against the opposition.

For the record, I don't feel that either side deserves any punishment whatsoever (mind you, I don't necessarily feel that the University needs to permit official resources to be allocated to either side, either -- I think the University would have been well within its rights to demand that both sides remove any advertisements from University property).
10.10.2007 5:54pm
Mr. X (www):
In the western world, hatred of Muslims has become a key ideological hallmark of rightwing parties. We see this overtly in the United States, France, Italy, Holland, Denmark, Poland, and, most lately, Canada, and more subtly expressed in Britain and Belgium. The huge uproar over blatantly anti-Muslim cartoons published in Denmark laid bare the seething Islamophobia spreading through western society.


Actually, it laid bare (1) that some Muslims are willing to react violently to speech that they find blasphemous and (2) that many liberal Western media outlets made editorial choices on the basis of fear, rather than principles.

However, the overall point that most Islamists are opposed to the kind of central government and nationalism that is required to implement fascism is a good reason not to use the term.
10.10.2007 5:57pm
Mr. X (www):
What Zed said.
10.10.2007 5:59pm
Brian G (mail) (www):
While I believe in the First Amendment, this right-wing smear group has no right to violate the Constitutional rights of Muslims who are oppressed by their white, Western Jesusfreak masters who continually lie about Islam. They have no right to force their racist hatred on others. They should be arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced to spend a long time in jail.

Sadly, the above nonsense would get a lot of support on the GW campus.
10.10.2007 6:00pm
Elliot123 (mail):
Samuil: "The Muslim World is replete with brutal dictatorships, feudal monarchies, and corrupt military-run states, but none of these regimes, however deplorable, fits the standard definition of fascism. Most, in fact, are America's allies."

I suppose we always have to be on our guard not to insult dictatorships, feudal monarchies, and corrupt military-run states. They have feelings, too.
10.10.2007 6:01pm
ejo:
let's see-Islam as a race, not a religion, the real bad guys are us, not the Taliban or the 9/11 psychopaths. I guess the left has arrived on the scene, armed with talking points and drivel.
"I'd have to check the numbers on that, though -- I don't have a clear memory of how many actual deaths have resulted from either source"-yep, we should all be concerned about those organized christofascists and their attempts to murder people around the globe. will you conservatives stop parodying the mindless left with posts like this. surely no one could be so ignorant.
10.10.2007 6:07pm
Pamelapod:
Another consideration in all this is how the poster is represented in the Islamic press. Initial reports are that the poster was taken seriously. Does it put attendees at "Islamofascism Awareness" activities at risk?
10.10.2007 6:08pm
randal (mail):
I'm curious why you consider whining about how what is basically an insult isn't sufficiently precise an effective argument a worthwhile argument to make.

So it sounds like we all agree that "islamofascist" is nothing more than a general insult. Identical in all essential elements to "judeonazi" - to borrow from Crazy Train. Fine.

I would be pissed off if some guy were going around trying to get universities to host "Judeonazi Awareness Week" - wouldn't you?
10.10.2007 6:11pm
ejo:
I don't see any such general agreement above-there have been quite coherent arguments as to why the islamofascist term is appropriate. in response, you get drivel about bedwetters and how we are the real enemy from some towering intellects. if I didn't know the posters above were actually conservatives lampooning the left, I would be depressed that such people actually walk the earth.
10.10.2007 6:28pm
samuil (mail):
The days when ideologues put their money where their mouth is and acted like men is long gone.

To even be considered a "Man of the Left" in the 30's in this country you had to have earned your stripes in Spain's Civil War. Thousands of lefty pinko Americans marched off to fight (foolishly and naively in my view) in a war that wasn't even theirs.

But at least they acted like men. Horowitz or any of the other Neocons or their dim witted dumb dumb followers actually create a volunteer brigade (as in unpaid with no benefits) like the Lefties of old and march off to fight their particular ideological dragons? Give me a break. No way. The fact of the matter is that the Neocons don't believe their own lies. They are not true believers in their "cause"- not really. They are cynical whored out pitch men for the MIC and that is who pays their bills.

So they bay and hoot for war and invent insipid stupid things like "Islamofacism Awareness Week" or whatever and then act like dummies and call everyone who disagress with them "leftists".

I share pretty much nothing in common ideologicaly speaking with the Old Leftists in this country who marched off to fight in Spain. But at least they actually believed their spew and were men.

These She-male shrewish whores called "Neocons" and their rank and file fat goo filled moo-moo wearers wouldn't be fit to polish the boots of a Pinko American like John Reed.
10.10.2007 6:31pm
WHOI Jacket:
Samull,

Explain how the previous comment shouldn't get you banned?
10.10.2007 6:36pm
ejo:
it shouldn't lead to a banning-it should be placed on a plaque celebrating the great thoughts of the left. I am sure you could get the poster going about the Zionists leading us into war by using their cabal of neocons as well. of course, those giants of the left were also the ones fighting Stalin's battles for him over here-I can't help, though, but hold back my admiration for the Walter Duranty's and the Rosenberg's of the past.
10.10.2007 6:46pm
samuil (mail):
ejo, smart enough ?
How is left ideology came into equation here, when I had condemned them in the post ?
10.10.2007 6:52pm
samuil (mail):
WHOI.

Explain yourself
10.10.2007 6:53pm
ejo:
you're right-how could I suspect, given the talking points spouted, that you might be a die hard leftist, not an episcopalian pharmacist or catholic mailman? any comments on the zionist cabal?
10.10.2007 6:57pm
davge (mail):
satire is the whoopee cushion that gives you a quick laugh as you settle down onto an otherwise uncomfortable chair again and again.

if you havent already, you should definitely seek out the power of nightmares, i believe its available on www.tv-links.co.uk in documentaries but dont hold me to it.
10.10.2007 6:58pm
nj (mail):
hey, how come when people of the crazy persuation say "Bush = Fascist," libbers don't come out of the woodwork to discuss the meaning of fascism?
10.10.2007 6:59pm
samuil (mail):
looks, like you know something about it,ejo.

Tell me about it , then may be I will comment on your fantasies
10.10.2007 6:59pm
WHOI Jacket:
I think the content of your post speaks for itself. Volumes.
10.10.2007 7:02pm
samuil (mail):
so you can't explain yourself, WHOI Jacket
10.10.2007 7:03pm
Tom R (mail):
Muslims don't have laser-beam eyes? So how did Saddam kill Mandela, then, huh? Huh?
10.10.2007 7:06pm
WHOI Jacket:
Explain what, how your post reads like the jabberings of a person on a sidewalk with Borderline Personality Disorder?

Or the disregard for the comment policy posted right there below that [Post Comment] button.
10.10.2007 7:11pm
randal (mail):
hey, how come when people of the crazy persuation say "Bush = Fascist," libbers don't come out of the woodwork to discuss the meaning of fascism?

That's easy. We all know that calling someone fascist is meant only as an insult. Nobody is claiming that calling Bush a fascist is meant as other than an insult.

People are claiming that "Islamofascist" is meant as an actual legitimate term for a group. We are saying, no, it's just an insult.

I don't think anyone would mind "Islamofascist" if the people saying it acknowledged that it's just an insult. But then you also wouldn't have "Islamofascist Awareness Week" trying to pass itself off as legitimate, and the president talking about "Islamofascists," etc.

If people decided to start calling the neocons "Amerifascists" or something, for reals in an attempt to get it to stick as the legitimate name in place of "neocon", then yeah, you'd hear objections.
10.10.2007 7:32pm
Henry Bramlet (mail):
I do agree that Facism isn't a completely accurate label for these groups- which is why we use the modifier, Islamo. Therefore, you get a modified word! Islamofascism, the intersection of Islamism and Fascism.

While Islamists feel the need to create an Islamic theocracy, the Islamofascist throws in all these great extras, like hero-worship, Jew-race-baiting, Genocidal rabbling, calls to expel (or oppress) foreign nationals, and justifications for the mass killings of innocent noncombatants. For me, the term is quite useful.

Paxton defines fascism's essence, which he aptly terms its "emotional lava" as: 1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions;

You don't believe that the people taking up suicide bombings and the like aren't claiming that they are in a war? That seems pretty much a crisis to me.

2. belief one's group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits;

Have you not seen the numerous claims that US and Israel are the cause of all misery? That it is ok to engage in targeting civilians (against the law) in order to remove the threat to adherents of true Islam?


3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts;

From Osama, to Arafat, to the various Ayatollahs, there seems to be a common justification for committing atrocities in that their leader has seen a path to the salvation of their peoples. This has lead Osama to insist that his troops are justified in breaking the laws of their countries (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc) as long as they are carrying out the orders of their leader.

Even in Iran, though there are technical laws against murder, these laws are frequently disregarded in cases of honor killings or assassinations of political rivals.

Have you been to any of these countries or neighborhoods where the various leaders are glorified in iconographic splendor such as we haven't seen since the death of Franco?

4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint;

You haven't seen Osama and others' claims that such places as Andalusia (i.e. Spain) belong to the empire he expects founded in his image?

5. fear of foreign "contamination."

C.f. rejection of Jews, and the terrible violence against anyone implicated as being part Jew, consorting with Jews, or otherwise under the spells of Jews. C.f. Osama bin Laden's initial call-to-arms because EVIL AMERICANS were contaminating his motherland (Saudi Arabia).
10.10.2007 7:56pm
Steven Horwitz (mail) (www):
I wonder whether the group who created the satirical poster will be subject to the same treatment as conservative groups who have held affirmative action bakesales, also attempts to use satire to make a political point?
10.10.2007 8:15pm
randal (mail):
What treatment was that?
10.10.2007 8:20pm
neurodoc:
Randal: People are claiming that "Islamofascist" is meant as an actual legitimate term for a group. We are saying, no, it's just an insult.
So what exactly is your concern - that the term is not precise enough to make clear who it is meant to take in? That it insults those who ought not be insulted? What?

If you think "Islamofascist" insufficiently precise to use as an identifying term, then please tell us might who come under the "Islamofascist" epithet as it is being used that doesn't deserve to be labeled such (overinclusive); and who that deserves to be tagged with that same "Islamofacist epithet is being left out (underinclusive). If you can say, then perhaps we can refine the term so as to be sure we are talking about the people we really have in mind, neither including anyone who doesn't belong, nor excluding anyone who does.

If "Islamofascist" insults those you don't think desrve to be insulted, why do you think they don't deserve it? If your concern is for the sensitivities of Muslims generally, then what term(s) would you propose we use instead fo "Islamofascist?" In a subsequent post, EV discusses how "Islamist" and "jihadist" may be more likely to be taken by Muslims as an attack on their religion than "Islamofascist," which treats the individuals so labeled as the deviants they are rather than the defenders of the faith they fancy themselves to be. (Or do you think they are not "deviants," that they are an authentic expression of Islam?)

If it is neither that you fear use of the term "Islamofascism" will lead to classification errors or other confusion about whom and what we are discussing, nor that you see it as undeservedly insulting, then what exactly is your objection to it?

In your opinion, American neocons are as equally deserving deserving of the "fascist" label as the Al Qaeda types? If not, why do you conflate them, arguing that if we speak of "Islamofascists," then we should call neocons "Amerifascists"? Calling supporters of Al Qaeda "Islamofascists" is like equating Bush with Hitler or any of our leaders with Nazis?
10.10.2007 8:20pm
randal (mail):
If it's an insult, I don't care who comes under it. Insult whoever you want.

I just don't think an epithet should be advanced as the general-use term for any group, whether they deserve it or not. Having a chapter in a textbook on "Islamofascism" feels a lot like having a chapter on "The Habits of Southern White Trash." Can't we use a less loaded term for serious debate?

I had no problem with "radical Islam" or "militant Islam." "Islamofascist" is simply a slur.
10.10.2007 8:27pm
wooga:
"There is nothing in any part of the Muslim World that resembles the corporate fascist states of western history."

Tell me samuil, can you name a single corporate fascist state has ever existed in the entire history of planet earth? (Here's a clue, Mugabe or Chavez style nationalization of independent corporations categorically excludes them from being 'corporate fascists' - just like a lot of history's greatest minors)

It sure looks like you have fallen for the exact lefty nonsense I warned about. Just because Kos says "fascism = bananas" does not mean King King loves fascism. If you proceed from a faulty definition of fascism, all of your arguments about what is and is not fascism are likewise going to be faulty.
10.10.2007 8:52pm
wooga:
Randal,
Is "fascist" a slur? How about nazi? If someone is actually a member of a nazi party, how is it a slur if I call them a fascist nazi? Similarly, if someone is actually an Islamist and a fascist (I cited examples), how is it a slur to use an accurate term to describe them?
10.10.2007 8:54pm
wooga:
minors = monsters in my 7:52 post. And some missing words too. Blah.
10.10.2007 8:55pm
Freedom Fighter (mail):
you sons a bitches American terrorist fuckers, The world hates you, you are the real terrorists of the earth you kill millions.

How many bin laden killed?? [hundreds maybe thousands]
How many USA terrorists killed?? [MILLIONS including Native Americans, Japanese {hiroshima, nagasaki), Vietnamese, North Korean, Afghan, Iraqi, Philippines]

So much damn blood on your hands im surprized you have the nerve to talk?

you and your country full of terrorists will collapse soon enough, the muslim world have had enough of your shit, we will start selling our oil in the EURO and overcharge your snooty asses.

Damn terrorists cross the ocean to attack a nation that had NOTHING to do with 9/11, and you still want to get bombed from Iran. keep that shit up you terrorists, your nation is living off of borrowed time and borrowed money. Your shit immoral nation will collapse soon.
10.10.2007 9:29pm
Russ (mail):
Maybe the person who posted the above post meant it as satire...
10.10.2007 10:12pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Freedom Fighter.

You know what? You're right. So keep your posts anonymous. It will take us longer--just a bit--to get to you. But don't be buying no green bananas.
10.10.2007 10:37pm
Hoosier:
wooga (Is "fascist" a slur? ) reminds me of a line from one of my favorite movies--Whit Stilman's 'Barcelona':

Chris Eigeman: "I don't think he meant 'fascista' in a good way."
10.10.2007 11:01pm
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Richard Aubrey, you can't do anything even IF you find me.

hahahhahahah, doesn't matter anyway, your country is bankrupt, you are living off of borrowed time and money from China. Don't believe me???? Check with your comptroller general David Walker from the Government Accountability O,ffice. He can let you know the Social Security Medicare, and Medicaid burden you will have to pay for babyboomers which will bankrupt the United States of Terror. Good riddance!
10.10.2007 11:13pm
Hoosier:
Freedom Fighter:

Your wit and erudition have rendered me incapable of any serious response. So instead I translated the chorus of "Love is a Battlefiled" into German. I hope you like it!

Wir sind jung
Kummer zu Kummer stehen wir
Keine Versprechungen
Keine Nachfragen.
Beide von uns wissend:
Liebe ist ein Schlachtfeld.
10.10.2007 11:17pm
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Hoister is that NAZI or AMERICAN, wait i forgot United States of Terror = NAZI (operation paper clip)
10.10.2007 11:20pm
neurodoc:
Randal, the second definition for "epithet" in my dictionary is "a disparaging or abusive word or phrase." But the first one is "a characterizing word or phrase accompanying or occurring in place of the name of a person or thing." And the third one is "the part of a taxonomic name identifying a subordinate unit within a genus." You say, "If it's an insult, I don't care who comes under it. Insult whoever you want." So I take it that your concern about "Islamofascism" is not that it is an "epithet" according to the second definition, but rather that it doesn't serve well as an epithet according to the first definition, and perhaps not under the third either.

I have no problem with academics using "Islamism," "Salafiism," "Wahhabiism," rather than "Islamofascism" to refer to those we have in mind. Indeed, I would encourage them to do so. What I don't see is why it should not be allowed as a "general use term" to identify them. If it doesn't lead to confusion about whom we are talking and it is not gratuitously insulting to those who do not deserve to be insulted, those who have no sympathy for the extremists and offer them no support, then why should we eschew this label?

There can be no question that these people exist, they have given an abundance of convincing proof that they are out there and that they are very dangerous. Is there a similarly distinct group that you would label "Southern White Trash" if that were not so offensive? Both "Southern" and "White" are important descriptors, there to make clear that they are different from Northern trash, and different from trash of color? The "Islamofascists" are unarguably Islamic, their religion central to how they see themselves, and arguably "fascists" or "fascist-like." I don't think whether "trash" is of northern or southern origin matters a whit, nor that skin color means anything in this. (Senator Byrd of West Virginia, once the Democratic Senate Majority Leader, and before that a KKK organizer, might differ with me on this, since he has been heard in recent years to speak of "white niggers.")

When wars are being fought, the enemy is not always referred to in neutral terms, e.g., "Krauts" for "Germans" during WWI. The "Islamofascists" are definitely are enemies in the GWOT and I don't have any problem using "Islamofascist" to label them, even if that is not the preferred term of MESA types.

In medicine, we certainly have terms we use among ourselves and different, less precise or meaningful ones, we use with the laity. For instance, among ourselves it is usually "myocardial infarction" or "MI," and with the patient or family "heart attack." Sometimes we are accused of using jargon, but it is usually more precise and informative, so preferred, though we may have to explain things to non-physicians using different words. I am no political scientist teaching political science, and I will be content with "Islamofascist" until I hear compelling arguments why I ought not use it.
10.10.2007 11:20pm
Hoosier:
Y'know, Freedom, I just don't see it that way. But I guess you just aren't a Pat Benetar fan.
10.10.2007 11:25pm
neurodoc:
Freedom Fighter: American soldier boys, why are you fighting this war? Do you want to be so far from home living under these miserable conditions? Your wifes and girlfriends are making love to other men while you are trying to survive in the jungle. You are losing, you cannot win, you will die here and your bodies will rot in the tropical sun. Put down your guns while you still have a chance...
10.10.2007 11:29pm
Mr. X (www):
"Islamofascism" has the same level of specificity and adds the same amount of utility to the language as "judicial activism." As the latter term means "decisions made by judges that I don't like," the former means "Islamists that I don't like."

If dealing with (and stopping the rise of) Islamism is the existential crisis that so many claim, the use of a sloppy pejorative weakens our ability to understand and cope with the threat.
10.10.2007 11:31pm
Hoosier:
"while you are trying to survive in the jungle."

Is this a forty-year-old quote?
10.10.2007 11:33pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Hoosier.

More like sixty-five.
10.10.2007 11:40pm
Freedom Fighter (mail):
neurodoc, why don't you ask yourself, why is the United States of Terror still killing innocent people thousands of miles from their homeland [Iraq, Afghanistan]? Why don't you ask yourself why your terrorist nation dropped an atomic bomb on a civilian populated NAGASAKI and HIROSHIMA? Why don't you ask yourself why is the United States of Terror founded by terrorists who committed genocide against the native population??
10.10.2007 11:42pm
Truth Seeker:
Freedom Fighter, I know what you mean about the end being near. I thought the same thing in the late 1970s. Trillion dollar deficit, oil prices shooting up, a malaise (as Chris Matthews wrote into Carter's speech.

But then Ronald Reagan came along and the economy boomed and the over-financed military invented the Internet, and things haven't been better. It's a new world. You can't underestimate free capitalist Christians when they get serious about something. Soon we'll have new sources of power, desalination of sea water, the biggest booming economy in the history of the world. You watch.
10.10.2007 11:46pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Freedom Fighter. Why don't you ask yourself why such a murderous bunch as us isn't going to get around to you? What have you got that makes you invulnerable, besides insignificance?
10.10.2007 11:48pm
Truth Seeker:
By the way, why do Islamists have to keep their women in bags? Are they so afraid that someone will get a woodie looking at their women?

And you should realize, a woman's eye brows show what her bush looks like so a scarf or veil doesn't do any good. Unless you use the full body burkah on her, guys are looking at your women and imagining their bushes.
10.10.2007 11:49pm
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Truth Seeker, Take a look at what Reagan administration did to your total debt as a percentage of GDP: http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

Not only is your debt 68% in terms of GDP, but your nation is facing increasing and menacing threats like never before. Not only is there a housing and credit sub-prime loan crisis, but there is the impending demographic glitch your nation will face when the baby boomers retire as of Jan. 1 2008.

They will start collecting Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security for the next 27 years. Not only is your economy not prepared for this spending, your jobs are being shipped off at the same time. This is at a time when your nation is spending 1 trillion dollars (1/13th of your GDP) for killing Iraqi and Afghan civilians overseas.

Not only that, but now more than ever oil producing nations are selling in EUROS which btw is at an all time high against the "dollar" which the Canadian currency is stronger than the US dollar.

Don't believe me? CHECK WITH YOUR NATION'S CHIEF ACCOUNTANT DAVID WALKER. He'll tell you.

Don't be so naive. United States of Terror is bankrupt.
10.10.2007 11:55pm
Freedom Fighter (mail):
HAHAHA and while your nation is collapsing all you can think about is "bushes", ain't that right "Truth" seeker?

hahah such an immoral nation, its no wounder gays find refuge with Christians, they are one in the same.
10.10.2007 11:58pm
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Anyone want to compare kill count of Radical Extremist Muslims verses Radical Extremist American Christians????
10.11.2007 12:00am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
How about a RADICAL EXTREMIST RIGHT WING CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN AMERICAN FASCIST NAZI awareness week??

I guess that's everyday awareness, just turn on tv.
10.11.2007 12:02am
Truth Seeker:
And exactly which Islamic group/nation had a better economy, science, medicine, engineering, or technology during the last, say 1000 years? And which current one might have better prospects than us?
10.11.2007 12:11am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
" And exactly which Islamic group/nation had a better economy, science, medicine, engineering, or technology during the last, say 1000 years? "

ohh wait you mean the Economy based on the enslavement of african americans?

Or do you mean the science and technology you stole from NAZI GERMANY [operation paper clip] ??

you know, the world wouldn't give a shit about the United States of Terror if they didn't use their technology to kill people on such a massive scale.

But since you like asking questions instead of answering them why not tell me which nation used their science and technology to drop two atomic bombs on civilian populated cities NAGASAKI AND HIROSHIMA which killed 200,000+ civilians and disfigured countless others due to radiation?
10.11.2007 12:18am
Hoosier:
"Not only is there a housing and credit sub-prime loan crisis,"

What IS IT with these Islamo-loons and sub-prime loans? First Osama bin Hidin'. Now Freedom Fighter.

I miss a couple weeks of "The News Hour," and now I gotta play catch-up . . .
10.11.2007 12:20am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
What is it with the Christ-Fascists and "Osama bin hidin' "

hahahah the only people i see hiding is US troops hiding in the Green zone behind a wall. =)
10.11.2007 12:23am
Truth Seeker:
But since you like asking questions instead of answering them why not tell me which nation used their science and technology to drop two atomic bombs on civilian populated cities NAGASAKI AND HIROSHIMA which killed 200,000+ civilians and disfigured countless others due to radiation?

And saved the lives of a million American soldiers who otherwise would have needed to die in order to subdue the nation that attacked us. Beware of attacking us. The price is high. Japan learned a lesson that the Islamofascists are still being taught.
10.11.2007 12:24am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
"And saved the lives of a million American soldiers who otherwise would have needed to die in order to subdue the nation that attacked us."

hahahah so you KILL CIVILIANS in order to SAVE TROOPS.. hahahahahhahahahahaahhahaha AMERICAN TERRORIST LOGIC IS FUNNY!!
10.11.2007 12:25am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
"Beware of attacking us. The price is high. Japan learned a lesson that the Islamofascists are still being taught."

Muslims already attacked you, what can you do about it?
you need our oil =)

keep funding us American Christ-fascists [Saudi oil money translates to arms for freedom fighters].
10.11.2007 12:28am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Another thing you funny naive americans gotta realize is that islam has no state, we are a stateless entity. Japan was a state.

you cannot win, we WILL win.
10.11.2007 12:31am
Hoosier:
"You Americans are so naive. When you want to have sexual intercourse, you must firt stop at the nearest National Monument to pick up birth-control devices!"
10.11.2007 12:41am
TDPerkins (mail):
If "fascism" is to mean anything other than "You are to my right and I don't like you," then it needs to refer to a sahred[sic] set of qualities.


I perceive obvious shared qualities amongst the self-avowed AlQaeda affiliate groups. Not the least of the that they are self-avowed affiliates and that they act quite similarly whenever they come into day-to-day control of a territory.

The subservience of the individual to the state.


Are you claiming they tolerate dissent?

Regimentation of public life.


They have that in spades.

Racial/ethnic cohesion.


Why should the Islamist's religiously based cohesion exclude them from the fascist categorization?

Worship of a charismatic leader who is generally called simply "The Leader." (E.g., Der Fuehrer, Il Duce, El Caudillo)


I'm unaware of any actual "worship" ceremonies dedicated to these persons, i.e., what ablutions were due were due to whomever held the post, not the person. The Nazi's came most close, but literal worship simply never happened.

Belief in a serious internal threat from disloyal elements.


What, praytell, do you think the Islamofascists do to those who dissent from them in the least way--they whip folks for smoking, for crying out loud--what do you think they do to those they view to be actual apostates? Do you think they view such persons as being no threat?

This doesn't strike me as a good description of the Taliban regime.


Then you need to learn something about them.

The same people who use the term are the ones who literally think that we are in grave danger of America being turned into an Islamic state in the near future (see, e.g., Clayton Cramer's completely serious comments about not wanting to vote for Hillary because he did not want his granddaughter to wear a Burka and he did not want to live his last days as a 2nd class citizen because he would not convert to Islam).


Actually I'm concerned that if opposed ineffectively--and however poorly he's done it, G. W. Bush has opposed them better than any other President has--the Islamofacists will acquire the capability to regularly kill a few ten-thousands of my fellow citizens while knocking off several percent of our GDP at a whack.

The end result of going on as before 9/11 will probably be ten to fifty of the attacks I outline above before the movement burns itself out, and I'd rather prevent such attacks altogether by burning them out.

Islamofascist works very well as a word to describe them, capturing both their motivation and the degree of their totalitarianism.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, &pfpp
10.11.2007 12:42am
Hoosier:
Freedom--You clearly haven't heard of our newest weapon: The Islamic Bomb.

I won't go into detail.

But I am quite sure that you are not actually an enraged Muslim. You haven't said "Zionist" once.
10.11.2007 12:43am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Hoosier, why else do you think the spanish population in the United States of Terror will outnumber the white population in the near future? because of your use of "birth-control devices"
10.11.2007 12:45am
Hoosier:
Anyone want to compare kill count of Radical Extremist Muslims verses Radical Extremist American Christians????

OK!
10.11.2007 12:45am
Hoosier:
"why else do you think the spanish population in the United States of Terror will outnumber the white population in the near future?"

Wait. I don't follow. People are coming here from Spain in droves because of our birth-control devices?

Are sure about your source on that one?
10.11.2007 12:47am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
"Freedom--You clearly haven't heard of our newest weapon: The Islamic Bomb."

is that how you are going to spread your "freedoms" with bombs and tanks? if you are prepare to sustain high losses and prepare for the collapse of your nation of terrorists.
10.11.2007 12:51am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Hoosier, give me a figure how many Radical Muslims killed.
10.11.2007 12:53am
Hoosier:
"is that how you are going to spread your "freedoms" with bombs and tanks?"

No. That's pretty much just how we are going to kill you.
10.11.2007 12:54am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
"Wait. I don't follow. People are coming here from Spain in droves because of our birth-control devices?

yes spanish also known by whites as the mexicans, illegals, undocumented workers.. etc.
10.11.2007 12:56am
Hoosier:
Hey, take your time. No rush. You probably need to do a quick head count.

(Get it? "Head count"? Because you guys like decapitation so much? Ah well, I won't quit my day job.)
10.11.2007 12:56am
Hoosier:
"Wait. I don't follow. People are coming here from Spain in droves because of our birth-control devices?

yes spanish also known by whites as the mexicans, illegals, undocumented workers.. etc.

I still don't get it. Why are they lured here by our birth-control devices?
10.11.2007 12:58am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
"No. That's pretty much just how we are going to kill you"


WOW Nice freedoms you got there yankee. reminds me of documentaries depicting life of african americans in the south.

you Christ-fascist remind me of hitler, your boy.
10.11.2007 12:59am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
"Hey, take your time. No rush. You probably need to do a quick head count.

(Get it? "Head count"? Because you guys like decapitation so much? Ah well, I won't quit my day job.)"

your good at making jokes, but even better at dodging questions, you MUST be related to bush.

but on a more serious note, you have any figures we can compare?
10.11.2007 1:01am
Hoosier:
"reminds me of documentaries depicting life of african americans in the south. "

OK . . . you DO know that the African Americans are Christians too, don't you?

"you Christ-fascist remind me of hitler, your boy."

My boy is named Kieran. (And my little girl is Dierdre.) I think you must have the wrong Hoosier. Oops!

Hey, don't let it get to you: these things happen.
10.11.2007 1:04am
Truth Seeker:
"Freedom--You clearly haven't heard of our newest weapon: The Islamic Bomb."

Does it make everyone's clothes disappear so that all the Muslims have to kill all the women in their families for appearing nude?
10.11.2007 1:04am
Hoosier:
"you MUST be related to bush. " Hey, Freed, look who's talking about bush now!

"but on a more serious note, you have any figures we can compare?"

Not here with me. Do you mind if I just make some numbers up?
10.11.2007 1:07am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"So what should be done? Expel them. It is only fair. Hate speech should not be tolerated. Even satirical hate speech."

But just last week we witnessed a thread that really got out of hand with numerous posters mocking and ridiculing the stereotype of the retarded guy who tripped on the curb, and even helping him trip and fall down some more -- is there a double standard at the Volokh?
10.11.2007 1:07am
West:

Muslims already attacked you, what can you do about it?
you need our oil =)


Perhaps today. In another generation I suspect not. The public has mostly bought off on the need for new energy sources. That will allow politicians to fund many new ventures over the next several years.. We'll find something else. We always do :)



Saudi oil money translates to arms for freedom fighters


That's not as true as it used to be. After some of that money turned around and bit them a few times, there has been a big change in how much of that oil money turns back into terrorist fronts. The problem here is that alot of the groups they were funding got so wrapped up in their ideology that they forgot who was paying the bills.



you cannot win, we WILL win


No. One of the reasons I often ignore alot of this discussion is that I have no doubt in the end you can't win the war, just some battles. The Iraq war has helped with this, in that it's made alot of people realize just how much of a hell a ground war is. If the US is attacked again in a major way, I suspect the majority in the US will support a large air campaign against whomever we think did it.

Today there is a lot of partisan sniping about Iraq and what has gone right and wrong. Another major attack and that will evaporate. If the government can convince even half the population that we know who did it, the population will likely support dealing a killing blow.

Generally the American people want to do what they feel is the modern, civil thing. They currently feel it's better to put boots on the ground and try to win over Iraq than to raze it. But if they become truly concerned, raze they will. We have the technology. Once the will aligns, there really won't be anything to stop it.

In my estimation, it's really up to the non-violent followers of Islam to put their own house in order before things become bad enough that someone decides to do it for them.
10.11.2007 1:08am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
"OK . . . you DO know that the African Americans are Christians too, don't you? "

The KKK were christian, or shal i say CHRIST-FASCISTS.

Of coarse I know the Africans are christians they were forced to convert by the rifle by Radical white fundamentalists once they were enslaved in the United States of Terror.
10.11.2007 1:08am
Hoosier:
"Does it make everyone's clothes disappear so that all the Muslims have to kill all the women in their families for appearing nude?"

WHOA! SEEKER! You just gave me an idea for a REALLY ace movie script! THANKS!
10.11.2007 1:09am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
On another note, did anybody see the Mulsim Barbie doll? Hopefully that is not a new funding source for Al-Qaeda.
10.11.2007 1:09am
Hoosier:
"I know the Africans are christians they were forced to convert by the rifle"

Yeah, yeah. Like your buddies didn't do the same thing in Persia, North Africa, the Balkans, Anatolia . . .

But enough of the ancient history. Do you want to go camping with me?
10.11.2007 1:12am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Perhaps today. In another generation I suspect not. The public has mostly bought off on the need for new energy sources. That will allow politicians to fund many new ventures over the next several years.. We'll find something else. We always do :)



hey why not get ethenol, i hear its realllll expensive.. at least that way you can starve while you drive your SUV's =)


No. One of the reasons I often ignore alot of this discussion is that I have no doubt in the end you can't win the war, just some battles. The Iraq war has helped with this, in that it's made alot of people realize just how much of a hell a ground war is. If the US is attacked again in a major way, I suspect the majority in the US will support a large air campaign against whomever we think did it.


THAT IS THE FUNNIEST THING I EVER HEARD... your economy is in shambles (68% debt, mostly to communist china) you wasted 1 trillion Dollar, the opec countries are now switching to Euros.. lol not only that you can't even set up a good puppet government in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This generation of americans are incompetent and funny, like their president ;)
10.11.2007 1:14am
Hoosier:
"On another note, did anybody see the Mulsim Barbie doll?"

Why do I suspect that you are not making that up?
10.11.2007 1:14am
Truth Seeker:
The Japanese are working on a camera that takes a photo right through any clothing. Poor Muslim women will need to wear lead burkahs.
10.11.2007 1:15am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
"But enough of the ancient history. Do you want to go camping with me?"

call up dick Cheney, i think he's down!!
10.11.2007 1:15am
Freedom Fighter (mail):
Truth Seeker, thanks for showing what the west is all about, SEX and PERVERSION.
10.11.2007 1:18am
Truth Seeker:
your economy is in shambles

Funny, we haven't noticed. Stock market is reaching new highs. Don't believe everything they teach you in the Wahabbi (sp?) schools. They just tell you lies so you'll kill yourselves!
10.11.2007 1:18am
Hoosier:
"THAT IS THE FUNNIEST THING I EVER HEARD." Well DUH!

I mean, you guys have banned anything fun, haven't you?
10.11.2007 1:19am
Hoosier:
"call up dick Cheney, i think he's down!!"

Well, OK. But you just seem so much more, I dunno . . . exotic? Intriguing?
10.11.2007 1:21am
Freedom Fighter:
"Funny, we haven't noticed. Stock market is reaching new highs. "

hahahh that's what they thought before the DEPRESSION HIT THEM, funny americans have short term memory.

"Don't believe everything they teach you in the Wahabbi (sp?) schools. They just tell you lies so you'll kill yourselves! "

really? thanks for telling me what i learned, anything else i learned today besides the fact that Americans are stupid naive terrorists??
10.11.2007 1:27am
Freedom Fighter:
Well, OK. But you just seem so much more, I dunno . . . exotic? Intriguing?


Im sure you'll feel the same way with DICK, right before he shoots you by accident then woun't call the ambulance.
10.11.2007 1:28am
Truth Seeker:
Truth Seeker, thanks for showing what the west is all about, SEX and PERVERSION.

But it is in Islam that the men are so perverted that the women cannot even be seen in public. If they weren't always thinking about sex they would not need to hide the women's bodies from their eyes.

One always sees one's own faults in others.
10.11.2007 1:29am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Explain what, how your post reads like the jabberings of a person on a sidewalk with Borderline Personality Disorder?"

WHOI Jacket -- when you can't find any other insult to hurl worse than the last, you resort to spewing hate on disabled Americans?

Why am I reminded of all the posters who mocked and ridiculed the retarded guy who tripped on the curb in the other threat last week.

Is this what they are teaching in law schools these days?

You people should be ashamed. Not a credit in any way to the Volokh.
10.11.2007 1:32am
Freedom Fighter:
" But it is in Islam that the men are so perverted that the women cannot even be seen in public. If they weren't always thinking about sex they would not need to hide the women's bodies from their eyes. "

hhahaahah look how perverted the west is, that's why.
10.11.2007 1:34am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
I had a lot of Arabic friends in undergrad, and I do not know one who woould nto be highly offended by the so-called Muslim "Satire"-poster. Apparently some people can't tell the difference between the good guys and the bad guys.
10.11.2007 1:34am
Truth Seeker:
Im sure you'll feel the same way with DICK, right before he shoots you by accident then woun't call the ambulance.

Hoosier, I think our boy Freed's a Democrat in disguise. Or reading their web sites for ideas.
10.11.2007 1:35am
Freedom Fighter:
Truthseeker, the truth is America makes Soddom and Gommorah look like childs play compared to how perverted they are. And we all know what happened to soddom and gommorah =)
10.11.2007 1:35am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Why do I suspect that you are not making that up?"

I'm not. So reported Yahoo news.
10.11.2007 1:36am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
FF, "thanks for showing what the west is all about, SEX and PERVERSION."

Actually, I found the Arabic men I dated were well endowed themselves in that department.
10.11.2007 1:39am
Freedom Fighter:
Truthseeker, it seems you can't take the truth from anyone, make no mistake i am a muslim who advocates Sharia law and the reestablishment of a Caliphate which your boy Bush and Cheney gave us the opportunity in Iraq to bring back.

Not to mention your ostracizing of Turkey by the armenian genocide bill which will push Turkey more towards islamic fundamentalism and khaliphate reestablishment.

I can only wish you attack Iran cause you do not know the consequences and reprecussions that will occur if you americans are naive and stupid enough to go ahead with the attack [doing israel's job of coarse]
10.11.2007 1:40am
Freedom Fighter:
"Actually, I found the Arabic men I dated were well endowed themselves in that department."

Arabic doesn't mean MUSLIM, only 20% of muslims are arab.

you found arabs also endowed in the rape department??
10.11.2007 1:41am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"the Wahabbi (sp?) schools" -- TS, you're meaning to insult our Saudi allies? You can't lump all Arabic people into one lot. They're not all Al-Qaeda.
10.11.2007 1:42am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"you found arabs also endowed in the rape department??"

No, I did not say that. You're words, not mine. I believe your words were "SEX" and "PERVERSION" of the West.

"Arabic doesn't mean MUSLIM, only 20% of muslims are arab." Some cites, please. I don't disagree with the statement generally, but I don't believe your percentages are accurate.

"Hoosier, I think our boy Freed's a Democrat in disguise. Or reading their web sites for ideas."

No, I don't think so. He is too dramatic and emotional in a militaristic way to be unauthentic.
10.11.2007 1:49am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
FF, so you are Turkish?

"'Truthseeker, it seems you can't take the truth from anyone, make no mistake i am a muslim who advocates Sharia law and the reestablishment of a Caliphate which your boy Bush and Cheney gave us the opportunity in Iraq to bring back."

No, Iraq doesn't give the opportuntity to bring back the Caliphate. Too small a land area. You may advocate Sharia law, but you're not believable on the issue of the Caliphate. Try again.
10.11.2007 1:52am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"khaliphate" -- FF. Now we have a regional spelling.
10.11.2007 1:53am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Truthseeker, the truth is America makes Soddom and Gommorah look like childs play compared to how perverted they are. And we all know what happened to soddom and gommorah =)"

Resort to an ad hominem attack. And inaccurate, too.
10.11.2007 1:55am
Truth Seeker:
make no mistake i am a muslim who advocates Sharia law and the reestablishment of a Caliphate

Why is it you feel a need to force your peculiar customs on others? Why can't you be happy just to practice them by yourselves?

Usually people who need to force their system on others are those who doubt it. They can't be sure they are right unless they can convince (force) others to do the same. Otherwise you are just silly people wearing funny clothes having funny customs. Like people in Papua New Guinea or Tibet.

Do you really think the 13th century customs are right? Hasn't 700 years of scientiific progress shown you anything? Maybe that's why you doubt. That's why you want to force it on others, to convince yourself it is not all a fraud.
10.11.2007 2:00am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"" But it is in Islam that the men are so perverted that the women cannot even be seen in public. If they weren't always thinking about sex they would not need to hide the women's bodies from their eyes. "

hhahaahah look how perverted the west is, that's why."

Come on, FF. Who you think you're foolin? An American? Another good try, but us American know the Saudi women take their burkas off when they cross the women's lib Freedom line on the airplane from S.A. to the U.S. Therefore, logically speaking, the burkas are for the Arabic men, not the American men. Additionally, I found that the women from the countries requiring burkas behave themselves very well while in the West. One more thing, burkas are all about tradition.

You have a problem with cultural tradition?

The only thing I would personally change if I could persuade, would be if the Saudi Kingdom could see to allow the woen there to drive, and I would also hope to ride their fine racehorses.
10.11.2007 2:01am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Why is it you feel a need to force your peculiar customs on others? Why can't you be happy just to practice them by yourselves?"

Answer: Crusades and The Inquisition. Goes back thousands of years. Its payback, apparently.
10.11.2007 2:03am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
TS, you're digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole.

"Usually people who need to force their system on others are those who doubt it."

No, Muslims don't doubt their religion and Sharia law, any more than Catholics doubt the Pope.

"Otherwise you are just silly people wearing funny clothes having funny customs."

Now you're on the way to fomenting a diplomatic incident and about to get a lot of Muslims pretty angry (the good guys included).

"Do you really think the 13th century customs are right? Hasn't 700 years of scientiific progress shown you anything?"

Actually, TS, if you had ever studied the subject or hung with Middle Easterners, you would know Arabic people were way more advanced in mathematics and science that the West back then. They have a hard time accepting it when we discount those achievements.
10.11.2007 2:08am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
TS, why don't you get back to your 1L classes and spend some time preparing for your exams. FF, don't think Americans don't know the score and can't understand Arabic speaking. If you are from Turkey, please say so.

"This generation of americans are incompetent and funny, like their president ;)"

And don't underestimate all Americans. Big mistake.

"the opec countries are now switching to Euros"

Maybe so, but in about three years when the thermohalline shuts down and plunges most of Europe from a sizzling globally warmed land area to an ice age, open will be forced to switch back.
10.11.2007 2:19am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"open"=opec (can't type)
10.11.2007 2:20am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"woen"=women (as stated, can't type)
10.11.2007 2:22am
Freedom Fighter:
Resort to an ad hominem attack. And inaccurate, too.


ReALLY?? check out some of Micheal savages photos of SAN FRAN "sicko": http://www.savage-productions.com/Folsomstreetfair1.html

enjoy, i found it off the micheal savage website and copy pasted it =)
10.11.2007 2:25am
Freedom Fighter:
Sorry MAry i didn't know this was a spelling bee.
10.11.2007 2:26am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
So, FF, where you from? You a college student on a visa? Or making history by blogging on the Volokh from somewhere outside the U.S.?

If I could make one comment here, it is that American education is woefully lacking in understanding and speaking the languages if other cultures. This could use some improvement. I am amazed at the numbers of blogs I frequent where Americans cannot tell the linguistics of a native speaker of Arabic or Farsi from a fake.

No wonder the State Dept. and CIA have gone begging. Can't protect National Security when there is such a big cultural gap in understanding what the feds are dealing with. I feel like I have just witnessed two ships passing in the night (TS &FF).
10.11.2007 2:29am
Freedom Fighter:
Truthseeker thanks for asking the most obvious question:

Why is it you feel a need to force your peculiar customs on others? Why can't you be happy just to practice them by yourselves?


First of all, if there is currently a referendum right now in the middle east, the majority of all islamic nations would prefer CALIPHATE rather than the dictatorships funded by USA right now.

Let's see what the middle easterners feel:

Striking findings came in an underreported poll published in April 2007. The poll, commissioned by the University of Maryland confirms previous research on the subject www.css-jordan.org . The poll conducted across four majority Muslim countries shows overwhelming:


• Support for application of Shariah law in Muslim countries
• Unification with other countries in a Caliphate or Khilafah
• Opposition to occupation and western foreign policy in general
• Opposition to the imposition of western values in Muslim lands
• Opposition to the use of violence against civilians

The levels of consensus for these ideas are in excess of 75% for some issues.


WOW democracy loses, caliphate rules.
10.11.2007 2:29am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Sorry MAry i didn't know this was a spelling bee."

I haven't declared one, have you? Begs the question of what alphabet.
10.11.2007 2:30am
Freedom Fighter:
Why is it you feel a need to force your peculiar customs on others? Why can't you be happy just to practice them by yourselves?


LOL Why don't you tell that to your own damn president dropping bombs on Iraqis and Afghanis to spread "freedom" and "democracy".

Some freedom you have there, killing.
10.11.2007 2:30am
Freedom Fighter:
I haven't declared one, have you? Begs the question of what alphabet.

i misinterpretted your statements above, i thought you were sayin i cant type.. my bad =\
10.11.2007 2:36am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"First of all, if there is currently a referendum right now in the middle east, the majority of all islamic nations would prefer CALIPHATE"

And you know this because ... you'all got together and VOTED?

"Let's see what the middle easterners feel"

Ok, now we have a unified conclusions about a highly divided, balkanized area. (Vaguely defined, as FF appears to be Turkish).

"Striking findings came in an underreported poll published in April 2007. The poll, commissioned by the University of Maryland confirms previous research on the subject ...."

Ahhh, cites an AMERICAN poll done in Maryland for support.

"The poll conducted across four majority Muslim countries shows overwhelming ..."

Admits the poll cited for support is not representative, since it only includes a mere 4 countries of many.

"The levels of consensus for these ideas are in excess of 75% for some issues"

And now cites to a much smaller subsection of the very small poll lacking representation of numerous interested countries. (Stretching, reaching for straws).

"WOW democracy loses, caliphate rules."

Not yet. Caliphate requires all the horses. We still have all the finest horses. Democracy rules.
10.11.2007 2:37am
Freedom Fighter:
Ok, now we have a unified conclusions about a highly divided, balkanized area. (Vaguely defined, as FF appears to be Turkish).

I am not turkish however i do hope turkish breaks ties with USA as the USA is corrupting them and playing political games with middle eastern countries destabalizing the whole region.


and you know what?? that's what I WANT, i NEED a destabalized middle east so we can unify all the nations under Caliphate.
10.11.2007 2:41am
Truth Seeker:
LOL Why don't you tell that to your own damn president dropping bombs

You didn't answer the question. You're just avoiding the question. The reason our system is superior is that 51% or 75% cannot force the others to obey their rules. You want to force others against their wills which is evil.

And by the way, Soddom and Gomorrah was just a myth made up by old Jewish priests to make people obey their rules.

And Mary, 1L was a long time for me I've been a lawyer in the same state as you for almost 30 years.

But I need to get to the office by at least 10 tomorrow, 11 at the latest, unless I decide to do some garden work first (it gets dark so early these days I can't do it after work) so I better go to bed. It's been real!

Don't kill youself, Freed! (There are no virgins waiting for you, trust me, just worms.) And the new system for suicide bombers is to wrap their body parts in pig skin and bury them like that, in air tight containers.
10.11.2007 2:47am
Freedom Fighter:
Not yet. Caliphate requires all the horses. We still have all the finest horses. Democracy rules.


Democracy is on its last wheels, just as Communism was when they invaded the same nation you did. They were just as secretive as your administration is now.

I've researched the defense companies, most of which are manufacturing weapons at tax payer's expense in order to ship to israel or UK for FREE.

LOL no wounder US is leading nation... in debt.

According to CIA world factbook
Rank Order - Current account balance
163rd United States $ -862,300,000,000 2006 est.
10.11.2007 2:48am
Freedom Fighter:
You didn't answer the question. You're just avoiding the question. The reason our system is superior is that 51% or 75% cannot force the others to obey their rules. You want to force others against their wills which is evil.


hahah what a typical naive American, you don't realize that you are imposing democracy on 100% of IRAQ and 100% of AFGHANISTAN. its YOU WHO IS EVIL. you are the terrorists, not the resistance fighters fighting occupation by a terrorist nation.

When will Americans open their damn eyes, scary to think this idiot is a lawyer. He would probably defend hitler if he had the chance.
10.11.2007 2:51am
Freedom Fighter:
" Don't kill youself, Freed! (There are no virgins waiting for you, trust me, just worms.) And the new system for suicide bombers is to wrap their body parts in pig skin and bury them like that, in air tight containers. "

What a funny little bitch, go to bed and don't let the bed bugs bite kid.
10.11.2007 2:52am
Freedom Fighter:
Mary it doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that the US is going through economic catastrophy, it takes an accountant.. a chief accountant, namely David Walker, why don't you see what he has to say about the matter: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7461407498377956300

Enjoy!
10.11.2007 2:57am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Democracy is on its last wheels, just as Communism was when they invaded the same nation you did."

Not true, Communist Cuba is predicted to go mostly under water as the sea levels rise due to global warming. There is plenty of high ground for Democracy to survive.
10.11.2007 3:25am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"There are no virgins waiting for you, trust me, just worms."

I don't go for virgins. And girls don't like worms. I like the men. I'm just an all American girl. What can I say?
10.11.2007 3:27am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"I've researched the defense companies, most of which are manufacturing weapons at tax payer's expense in order to ship to israel or UK for FREE.

LOL no wounder US is leading nation... in debt."

Argument not supported by a tracing of the $$. Lacks credibility.
10.11.2007 3:28am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"that's what I WANT, i NEED a destabalized middle east so we can unify all the nations under Caliphate."

No, a destabilized Middle East would destabilize the Caliphate. But you may well want and hope for no possibility of Calipate. Who am I to say? I just know a Caliphate without horses is no Caliphate either, and most of the Akhal Tekes are in Russia or Southern California. Maybe it is a dream of the past.
10.11.2007 3:33am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"i misinterpretted your statements above, i thought you were sayin i cant type.. my bad =\"

I did not insult you. I said I can't type. Maybe you don't have a Disabilities Act. i speak to my computer, don't keyboard or letters go everywhere, typos, among other problems.
10.11.2007 3:35am
Freedom Fighter:
No, a destabilized Middle East would destabilize the Caliphate. But you may well want and hope for no possibility of Calipate. Who am I to say? I just know a Caliphate without horses is no Caliphate either, and most of the Akhal Tekes are in Russia or Southern California. Maybe it is a dream of the past.


lol thats cute, there is no caliphate to be destabalized. We have to destabalize the middle east to shake off US backed dictatorships in order to have one central islamic government to rule the entire muslim world.
10.11.2007 3:38am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"I am not turkish however i do hope turkish breaks ties with USA"

Then you are probably from Jordan. Don't count on Turkey breaking ties. I know lots of Turkish students who went to school here who like Americans.

Do you just enter spelling bees, or are you a student of history? You ever read Xenophon, Anabasis?

I think you are on a student visa here.
10.11.2007 3:38am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"According to CIA world factbook" Cite, please.
10.11.2007 3:40am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"LOL Why don't you tell that to your own damn president dropping bombs on Iraqis and Afghanis to spread "freedom" and "democracy".

Some freedom you have there, killing."

I don't tell the President anything. I'm just a lowly wife of a lawyer.

Why do you prefer killing to peace?
10.11.2007 3:43am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"You didn't answer the question."

What question was that? Am i in an inquisition? I thought this was a debate about the extremely poor taste shown by the subject so-called Satire poster of this thread?
10.11.2007 3:45am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"The reason our system is superior is that 51% or 75% cannot force the others to obey their rules. You want to force others against their wills which is evil."

i disagree. And that generalization is a logically fallacious proposition. Every place in the World has a variety of people all of whom are different. I'm a horse trainer, I don't force any person or equine to 'obey my rules,' they do the things I ask because they like me and want to. I treat those who treat me good the same. i am an American. Therefore, the generalization you posit to reach the conclusion of "evil" falls apart.

Where do you go to school? You need Logic 101.
10.11.2007 3:51am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"its YOU WHO IS EVIL"

Yes, I have heard that before, but mostly from those who associate my autistic aversion to garlic with vampires. I am not evil or bad just because I have autism, nor should people fear me because they confuse autism with vampires.
10.11.2007 3:53am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"you are the terrorists, not the resistance fighters"

No, I am not a "terrorist" and I am not a "resistance fighter;" I am just a slaving law clerk-horse trainer, wife of a lawyer who is very concerned about abrupt climate change due to global warming. And I am an American who loves my Country.
10.11.2007 3:56am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"" Don't kill youself, Freed! (There are no virgins waiting for you, trust me, just worms.) And the new system for suicide bombers is to wrap their body parts in pig skin and bury them like that, in air tight containers. "

What a funny little bitch, go to bed and don't let the bed bugs bite kid."

That wasn't me. I turned off my computer to embark a vessel. i think you are referring to one of the 1Ls who watched too much of the Sci-Fi channel instead of studying for his exams.
10.11.2007 3:58am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Mary it doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that the US is going through economic catastrophy, it takes an accountant.. a chief accountant, namely David Walker, why don't you see what he has to say about the matter"

I never heard of him. And I know I've been told before there are two sides of the argument. What makes you think an accountant can snow-job a J.D./M.B.A.? The U.S. is a strong Country full of Americans who know how to work hard, are innovative and inventive. This is why there is no economic catastrophy. But there is an abrupt climate change due to global warming concern, and that is a problem that affects the entire World, not just the U.S.

That is why you need to start thinking of Peace.
10.11.2007 4:07am
Hoosier:
Freed: "WOW democracy loses, caliphate rules."

Ahem. Isn't rejecting *democracy* on the basis of *majority preference* kinda, I dunno, stupid?
10.11.2007 4:14am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"And by the way, Soddom and Gomorrah was just a myth made up by old Jewish priests to make people obey their rules."

I guess an old dog really can learn new tricks. Before just now, I thought S &G occured during the last global warming sea level rise, but what do I know?

"And Mary, 1L was a long time for me I've been a lawyer in the same state as you for almost 30 years."

For the first time, I have been fooled, I admit it. I just hope you don't live on any coastal low lying property, it's very risky. The tides are perpetually high and 8-12" higher than before the Sept. 2007 ice melt.

"But I need to get to the office by at least 10 tomorrow, 11 at the latest, unless I decide to do some garden work first (it gets dark so early these days I can't do it after work) so I better go to bed. It's been real!"

My sentiments, as well, TS. I guess I got the last word.
10.11.2007 4:16am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
I spoke too soon. Hoosier, I am not sure it was even a majority. Check out his flimsy argument:

* takes a poll of a mere 4 countries
* we don't know how many in the sample
* claims this produces a "consensus"

So, I guess that leaves us with:

"Ahem. Isn't rejecting *democracy* kinda, I dunno, stupid?"

I agree, I'm with you.
10.11.2007 4:20am
Hoosier:
"if you americans are naive and stupid enough to go ahead with the attack [doing israel's job of coarse]"

FINALLY! I thought you'd NEVER get around to maligning the Jews! Ooftah! You had me woried there for a minute, Freed.
10.11.2007 4:21am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
By the way, TS, I'm not a lawyer. It is only dream, unless I can pass the whit test. It is very rigorous. In the meantime, I'm preparing for Hurricanes, sea level rise, and the effects of global warming. Looking for some high ground.
10.11.2007 4:29am
luagha:
Aside from all the above, this just makes clear that conservative campus groups have to include a digital signature block in all their public printed postings (like posters) that authenticates them as the author and demonstrates who the fakers are.
10.11.2007 6:27am
markm (mail):

Muslims already attacked you, what can you do about it?
you need our oil =)


But what makes you think we need you to get the oil? When the oil companies need special skills for a rig in Saudi Arabia, they run help-wanted ads in Texas...
10.11.2007 1:19pm
dave (mail):
I dont believe osama bin laden cares in the slightest about islam, or that he would ever sacrifice his own life or liberty for a fairy tale the way he asks his followers to.

Any more than george bush would actually fight for his 'ideals'. As I understand it, he used his family connections to avoid active service.

But at least bush was chosen by his people, in a free and relatively fair democratic vote, can be held to account by other elected representatives and will be replaced sooner or later.
10.11.2007 5:33pm
dave (mail):
RE: the Folsom street fair link - you dont have to like it or join in and its not up to you to judge or preach.

Thats how freedom works.
10.11.2007 5:38pm
Elliot123 (mail):
"On another note, did anybody see the Mulsim Barbie doll? Hopefully that is not a new funding source for Al-Qaeda."

Yes. Her clothes are glued on.
10.11.2007 6:03pm
Jim Carlile (mail):
"Islamofascism is a religious and political ideology, and deserves condemnation..."

Says who? Since when was this an official description of anything? And just who does it describe?

Instead, it's merely an epithet, and a fairly bigoted one-- what if someone used the term 'Judeofascist'? It's an absolutely meaningless term, but one that is easily bandied about by haters.
10.11.2007 10:40pm
Elliot123 (mail):
Judeofascism would be a fine term to describe Jews who were killing people up in an effort to impose Judaism on the rest of the world. What's the problem? But, Jews aren't flying airplanes into buildings. Only the Islamofascists are doing that.
10.11.2007 11:03pm
Freedom Fighter:
Islam is great, the haters can do nothing.
10.11.2007 11:04pm
Freedom Fighter:
"But, Jews aren't flying airplanes into buildings. Only the Islamofascists are doing that."

They don't have to, America gives them free Jets and laser guided missiles, in most cases they don't even have to stand in order to launch missiles at civilian populations in the Gaza strip, West Bank, and Lebanon.
10.11.2007 11:08pm
Hoosier:
Freedom Fighter: America gives Jews "free jets and laser guided missiles"?!!! Is this, like, at the bar-Mitzvah? 'Cause I think those guys are really to young still. You know--For that kind of hardware.
10.12.2007 12:17am
Hoosier:
"Islam is great, the haters can do nothing."

OK, FF . . . Now which is it?
10.12.2007 12:18am
Brian G (mail) (www):
Hey Freedom Fighter,

Given the choice between a millions American lives or dropping the A-Bomb on Japan, I vote for the latter. Plus, Japan should have surrendered after the first one. They deserved Nagasaki.

Perhaps you should go read about the Rape of Nanking and what the Japanese did to Koreans. You want to see real racial hatred? Go talk to an older Korean or Chinese individual and ask them what they think of the Japanese. It wouldn't be pretty.

The WWII Japanese were nothing like the kind Japanese people of today.
10.12.2007 4:12am
Too frank:
you Hoosier and Truth Seeker ! your utmost thinking is of a nude woman !

....... even Yankees getting their first rocket up into space is due to the German scientist Werhner Von Braun !
10.12.2007 4:44am
Too frank:
I just saw the documentary on first space rocket on Deutsche Welle (DW TV) yesterday.
10.12.2007 4:48am
Neutrality ?:
To err is human but to forgive is divine. Why don't you Americans acknowledge and admit your errors??
10.12.2007 4:58am
Hoosier:
1)you Hoosier and Truth Seeker ! your utmost thinking is of a nude woman !

2)Why don't you Americans acknowledge and admit your errors??


OK. I admit it. I was thinking of the wrong nude woman.

But Too frank: Doncha think it's a little telling to go right from nude women to "rockets"? I mean, what would a Freudian make of it?
10.12.2007 6:51am
Freedom Fighter (www):
BRIAN G

"Hey Freedom Fighter,

Given the choice between a millions American lives or dropping the A-Bomb on Japan, I vote for the latter. Plus, Japan should have surrendered after the first one. They deserved Nagasaki. "

HEY THANKS FOR SHOWING THE WORLD YOU WOULD RATHER SLAUGHTER MILLIONS OF CIVILIANS for thousands of SOLDIERS (with weapons who invaded another country).

THANKS FOR SHOWING THE WORLD U ARE THE TRUE TERRORISTS!!!
10.12.2007 12:21pm
Freedom Fighter (www):
"you Hoosier and Truth Seeker ! your utmost thinking is of a nude woman !

....... even Yankees getting their first rocket up into space is due to the German scientist Werhner Von Braun !"

hhahahahah thanks TOO FRANK, we all know already USA IS TERRORIST STEALERS, stealing technology from GERMANY AND USSR AND JAPAN AND MANY OTHER NATIONS, bunch of theives.
10.12.2007 12:23pm
Hoosier:
"stealing technology from GERMANY AND USSR AND JAPAN AND MANY OTHER NATIONS"

Freedom Fighter: I noticed that there are no MUSLIM MAJORITY-COUNTRIES in that list. So we aren't stealing science/tech know-how from the Islamic World?

Now why might that be?
10.12.2007 1:56pm
Hoosier:
"THANKS FOR SHOWING THE WORLD U ARE THE TRUE TERRORISTS!!!
"

Freedom Fighter: I think you might be overestimating the readership of this blog.
10.12.2007 1:58pm
Freedom Fighter (www):
"Freedom Fighter: I noticed that there are no MUSLIM MAJORITY-COUNTRIES in that list. So we aren't stealing science/tech know-how from the Islamic World?

Now why might that be?"

hhahahah keep trying to change the subject terrorists, hahahah PREFERING TO KILL CIVILIANS OVER LOSING SOLDIERS.

Shows how COWARDLY and CRUEL you terrorist yankees are.
10.12.2007 3:56pm
Freedom Fighter (www):
"Freedom Fighter: I think you might be overestimating the readership of this blog."

The 'readership' of this blog? Is "readership" even a word?
10.12.2007 3:57pm
Freedom Fighter (www):
The readership of the world newspapers knows that USA is a bunch of terrorists and a menace to world peace and civilized society.
10.12.2007 3:59pm
Hoosier:
'Is "readership" even a word?'

Only in English.
10.12.2007 5:56pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Freedom fighter.

You're right about slaughtering millions of civilians to save our soldiers.
Civilians in other countries ought to think about that. Maybe have a chat with their leaders.
You know. Concentrate on soccer or something.
10.12.2007 10:40pm
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"OK. I admit it. I was thinking of the wrong nude woman.

But Too frank: Doncha think it's a little telling to go right from nude women to "rockets"? I mean, what would a Freudian make of it?"

ROTFL
10.13.2007 12:59am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Shows how COWARDLY and CRUEL you terrorist yankees are."

Denied.
10.13.2007 1:01am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
Hoosier -- FF may have a point, "Is "readership" even a word?" I don't think there's such a word in Arabic.
10.13.2007 1:03am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"'Is "readership" even a word?'

Only in English."

Hoosier, I'm not sure this is true, however.

"The readership of the world newspapers knows that USA is a bunch of terrorists and a menace to world peace and civilized society."

This sentence is just way too grammatically messed up even for an autistic.
10.13.2007 1:06am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"You know. Concentrate on soccer or something."

Yeah, like the Bucs!
10.13.2007 1:08am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
And, I can't believe the Vatican released all this stuff about the Knights Templar AFTER I wrote my paper about their Inquisition.
10.13.2007 1:15am
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Mary Kat. I know what the Templar's treasure was and why Phillip the Fair couldn't find it.
The Templars were bankers in a time when the world was so benighted that loan interest was a sin. So they would have a piece of paper saying they owed the Screwloose of Tolouse X number of ducats on a certain date, with no reference to the fact that Screw had given them something less than X to begin with. And the reverse when they had paper saying merchant Fred owed them Y amount on a certain date without referring to the fact that they'd given Fred something less than Y to start with.
Net, they were rich. The rest of the fools thought it would be gold.
No wonder nobody's been able to find it. The records probably went up somebody's chimney one cold winter.

This ought to slow down the digging in odd locations.
10.13.2007 3:07pm
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
Thanks, RA. The Knights Templar are one of my favorite subjects.

"Net, they were rich." The real reason for the Inquisitors -- a fight over all that money.

"The records probably went up somebody's chimney one cold winter." Or down a Vatican vault under hundreds of years of other papers, like Joan of Arc.

By the way, what happened to FF and Hoosier? I think FF has an Arab bias against women -- when I post, he disappears. After I rejected the idea he posed about the virgins, he ran.
10.13.2007 4:05pm
Freedom Fighter (www):
Richard

"Freedom fighter.

You're right about slaughtering millions of civilians to save our soldiers. "

Thanks once again for displaying the American way of life: Murdering innocent civilians.
10.14.2007 1:25am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
FF, you're a nite bird. I'm American and I don't "murder innocent civilians." I don't think Hoosier or RA do either.
10.14.2007 2:00am
Freedom Fighter (www):
"FF, you're a nite bird. I'm American and I don't "murder innocent civilians." I don't think Hoosier or RA do either."

But you all support the state that finances and carries out terror, even Richard was proud of killing Japaneese civilians. What else can you expect from terrorists?
10.14.2007 12:38pm
Hoosier:
Freedom Fighter:

You'll find this interesting: Go find a book on psychology, and look up "Projection." I think this may change your life!
10.14.2007 12:51pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
FF. I'm not concerned with your view of me.

I'm suggesting a practical view of the subject. If you're a civilian in a country which opposes us....shouldn't you be rethinking this?

Considering how murderous we are, and all.

Mary Kat. What do you think of "Dungeon, Fire and Sword", history of the Templars?
10.14.2007 1:21pm
Freedom Fighter (www):
"I'm suggesting a practical view of the subject. If you're a civilian in a country which opposes us....shouldn't you be rethinking this?

Considering how murderous we are, and all."

I think this is the wisest decision, because once this immigration crisis blows up it will be a huge civil war, this nation will face disaster on so many fronts in the future (long term)
10.14.2007 2:59pm
Hoosier:
'it will be a huge civil war, this nation will face disaster on so many fronts in the future'

M'kay.
10.14.2007 3:06pm
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
"Mary Kat. What do you think of "Dungeon, Fire and Sword", history of the Templars?"

RA, i am not sure if I am allowed to respond. I am awaiting futher clarification. Apparently, Eugene counted that I posted 28 comments, and he asked for a limiting instruction to my comments. I counted at least 33 comments on this thread by Hoosier and at least 50 by Freedom Fighter, so I am a bit perplexed and uncertain if I will get in Volokh trouble if I respond. Like you asked me to comment on the book, I was also asked on another thread to comment on the movie "Carrie."

If I am allowed to respond to the book and movie, I will do so after I am cleared to numerically exceed my week's tally of 28 posts insofar as I do not wish to violate any comment limiting request.

BTW, the temptation is almost too much, what with the NEW thread on the Knights Templar, one of my favorite subjects! I'm biting my pencil.
10.14.2007 6:22pm
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
I also feel the need to refute this accusation directed in part toward myself:

"But you all support the state that finances and carries out terror, even Richard was proud of killing Japaneese civilians."

No, I do not support any state that finances and carries out terror. And I have never had anything whatsoever to do with any "killing Japanese civilians," in fact, one of my cousins is a Japanese-American.

I hope this denial does not put me over the quantitative numerical comment limit. If so, I humbly and respectfully apologize to all.
10.14.2007 6:28pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Mary Kat.

See you on the Templars thread. This one is two close to the bottom, anyway.
10.14.2007 8:57pm
Freedom Fighter:
"Mary Kat.

See you on the Templars thread. This one is two close to the bottom, anyway."

Too bad its not as low as your morals, then that would be a problem...
10.14.2007 10:45pm
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
Too bad its not as low as your morals, then that would be a problem..."

Your baseless, unsupported accusation is rejected in its entirety.
10.15.2007 12:19am
Mary Katherine Day-Petrano (mail):
Thanks, RA. You're right, this thread has almost fallen off the bottom of the active threads.
10.15.2007 12:21am