Hm... could genetic engineering create a solid-hoofed pig? Between Kosher and Halal there'd be quite a market. Although somebody would probably be a spoilsport and blow up the researchers.
And as a result of this clear affront their faith, Jews soon ransacked the store and began looting neighboring establishments, burning cars, and chanting "Death to the Great Satan."
Everything I know about serving ham, I learned from a Jewish housemate. (The same one who taught me how to bake challah, in fact.) They'll probably sell a few.
This reminds me of a story from the Caltech chemistry department in the early 1980s, which I heard from some people who were in attendance. A young associate professor was asked to host the farewell party for a visiting professor who was leaving to go back to his home university.
The young professor dug up part of his backyard in Pasadena to install a firepit. I don't think anyone actually looked up the local codes, but people were relatively sure that, between snotty homeowners' associations and California anti-wildfire statutes, putting in a firepit wasn't allowed. But, he apparently really wanted to honor the visiting professor by throwing a big party, and he did so by roasting a whole pig, luau-style, in the firepit.
The visiting professor showed up to this party in his honor, apparently utterly stunned (but tactfully so) at the roast pig. Stunned, because he was visiting from Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
All indications are that the young professor's choice of entree should be filed under "well meaning but oh-so-clueless." My traife-eating Gentile informants report that the pig really was quite tasty, the circumstances were just unfortunate.
could genetic engineering create a solid-hoofed pig?
and Cornellian:
Maybe they just interpret the kosher rule as prohibiting the eating of the cloven hoof,
You've got it wrong way 'round. Pigs have kosher hooves - it's their stomachs that make them traif. Giving them solid hooves would just make them even traifer, if that were possible. Now if you could engineer proper rumination into them (not what the babirusa does), that would certainly make them kosher. Probably not halal, though.
The Maccabees would wince and the Hellenicists would smile.
And, of course, there is no pork to be found in Israel, only "white meat."
(Milhouse, it's my understanding that when halal meat isn't available to them, many Muslims will accept kosher (glatt only?) meat, whereas the other is not true, that is Jews who keep kosher aren't likely to accept halal meat in place of meat with a proper hechsher. So, if you know, where do halal and kosher diverge for meat products and where do they effectively overlap? Is it all about the method used to slaughter, the blessings, tne permitted animals, etc.? And what beyond the meat itself, no mixing of milk and meat for example?
Ex parte McCardle, your "housemate who styled himself Conservative, but...also had a real jones for bacon" might be seen as an "electic" Conservative," one of those Jews who choose to "customize" where religion is concerned.
You've got it wrong way 'round. Pigs have kosher hooves - it's their stomachs that make them traif. Giving them solid hooves would just make them even traifer, if that were possible. Now if you could engineer proper rumination into them (not what the babirusa does), that would certainly make them kosher. Probably not halal, though.
All these religious dietary rules seem entirely sensible to me.
Number two, and more seriously, the same folks who are carrying on about this ham error-- titter like little school girls at how clever it is that a brewery in Salt Lake City sells a beer with a famous Mormon painting on the label.
Hanukah -- not just for observant Jews any more. I worked with a Sikh who celebrated the evergreen + Santa variant of Christmas for his kids' sake -- why not a multiculti Hanukah?
Um, Happyshooter, you seem to think anyone is offended by this. I don't know where you got that idea. It's not offensive, it's funny. And it's funny because it was a dumb mistake. And it's a dumb mistake because even people who celebrate חנכה and eat ham don't generally do both at the same time; too much dissonance.
neurodoc, kosher covers a lot more than halal does, so halal doesn't imply kosher. Kosher meat is halal, because all kosher species are also halal, and kosher slaughter fulfils halal requirements, and the koran specifically permits meat slaughtered by "people of the book", provided it's done correctly.
Almost all kosher food is also halal, but there are exceptions - most prominently alcohol. Some Moslems won't even eat anything cooked with alcohol, even if it's all evaporated during the cooking, so they won't have anything with vanilla flavouring.
One big difference between kosher and halal rules for species is that kosher species are identified by rules. The Bible says that to be kosher a land animal must chew its cud and have split hooves. If a ruminant pig were to be discovered or invented, there is no question that it would be kosher. But I don't think halal species are identified by rules; as far as I know the haram species are named, and anything else is halal. In our hypothetical, my guess is that most Moslem jurists would take the attitude that "pigs is pigs".
Um, Happyshooter, you seem to think anyone is offended by this.
Yea, I did get carried away. The newsgirl last night was going off about this, and I recall her doing a happy story at the Utah Olympics about the beer and the two facedness grated.
I recall very well, because my wife purchased a beret hat based on the news girl wearing one at the games.
Let's just be glad that the description did NOT say, "Delicious for Ramadan." Some people would probably go fatwa over that!
By the way, while Eugene gave me the hat tip, let ME give a hat tip to my friend John Palchak in Pittsburgh who told me about the story about a "Channukah ham."
Reminds me of what a Rabbi I knew in Tennessee told me about when he applied for a position with a synagogue in Alabama. They brought him down for an interview, and at lunch served him a ham &cheese sandwich. Of course, given the circumstances, he said he figured it was part of the interview: a "Let's see how he reacts" test.
Sounds like my mother's story about taking a friend to an all-kosher Israeli restaurant - the friend looked down the menu, didn't see anything that looked like "normal" food, and asked the waiter if they could just make her a cheeseburger. Needless to say...
In our hypothetical, my guess is that most Moslem jurists would take the attitude that "pigs is pigs".
And since they seem to be very big on inerrancy and against "updating," I suppose it wouldn't matter if the day comes when pigs do fly.
Milhouse, thanks for the edification about kosher and halal. So an Orthodox Jew is permitted coq au vin, but an observant Muslim isn't. Would it be the other way around with beef stroganoff, that is an Orthodox Jew couldn't eat it no matter the meat used to make it, while a Muslim could if the meat were halal? (And I wasn't really serious when I asked if Muslims might feel more comfortable with glatt kosher. My understanding is that many religious Jews think that glatt takes it beyond what is required by halacha.)
One could make a dish called beef stroganoff, so long as it didn't contain any dairy sour cream - one could use soy or some other substitute, for example
I had in mind beef stroganoff, not a dish called beef stroganoff.
Another kosher/halal difference: Muslims can also eat shellfish, at least shrimp and prawns.
Thanks. Maybe I will have to do some reading, since I have more questions than I realized when we started. Muslims on milk and meat together - OK? What explains the commonalities and the differences between kasherus and halal, while Christians know from neither? Were Muslims taking the lead from Jews, e.g., strict prohibition on pork products, or did they go off entirely on their own? Do Muslims have any special dietary dispensations of the sort Jews do when eating out in Chineses restaurants? (see Portnoy's Complaint)
Aric, if I recall correctly that story was actually published in Analog under the name "Eric G(oddamn) Iverson", which was Turtledove's pen name back when he was trying to sound like the sort of person who could write credibly about Vikings (i.e. not so Jewish). I found it amusing because it came to the right conclusion, for pretty much the right reason, but the path it took to get there, and the authorities cited, were not realistic. For much the same reason that a Supreme Court decision would not cite Common Law for Dummies as an authority.
Neurodoc, indeed Beef Stroganoff would be perfectly halal. Shellfish is a disputed issue in Islam; some permit it, some don't. As for coq au vin, as I understand it many Moslem jurists do not allow it, but some do because there is no alcohol in the finished product.
There are several points of similarity between kashrut and halal, and more generally between Judaism and Islam. That's because the people who formed modern Christianity were copying Roman and Greek models, and dropped anything of Judaism that was too dissimilar, while the people who formed Islam were moving in the other direction, taking Judaism as a model of a monotheistic religion.
Kosher species are a subset of halal species, at least until our ruminant pig is discovered or invented. And kosher slaughter, or something like it, seems to have been common in 7th century Arabia, used by Xians and Sabeans (whoever they were) as well as by Jews and pagan Arabs. "People of the book" could be presumed to slaughter their meat in more or less the correct (halal) way, and not to have dedicated the animal to any pagan deity; the only defect would be that it had not been specifically dedicated to Allah, and that defect could be remedied at the time of eating.
Come to ACME for your Passover Challah
Oh, wait....
The young professor dug up part of his backyard in Pasadena to install a firepit. I don't think anyone actually looked up the local codes, but people were relatively sure that, between snotty homeowners' associations and California anti-wildfire statutes, putting in a firepit wasn't allowed. But, he apparently really wanted to honor the visiting professor by throwing a big party, and he did so by roasting a whole pig, luau-style, in the firepit.
The visiting professor showed up to this party in his honor, apparently utterly stunned (but tactfully so) at the roast pig. Stunned, because he was visiting from Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
All indications are that the young professor's choice of entree should be filed under "well meaning but oh-so-clueless." My traife-eating Gentile informants report that the pig really was quite tasty, the circumstances were just unfortunate.
The gift coincides with the Christmas season.
Everyone involved thought it was amusing.
And, of course, there is no pork to be found in Israel, only "white meat."
(Milhouse, it's my understanding that when halal meat isn't available to them, many Muslims will accept kosher (glatt only?) meat, whereas the other is not true, that is Jews who keep kosher aren't likely to accept halal meat in place of meat with a proper hechsher. So, if you know, where do halal and kosher diverge for meat products and where do they effectively overlap? Is it all about the method used to slaughter, the blessings, tne permitted animals, etc.? And what beyond the meat itself, no mixing of milk and meat for example?
All these religious dietary rules seem entirely sensible to me.
Where the heck do they get off charging nine bucks a pound for a friggin ham???
Number two, and more seriously, the same folks who are carrying on about this ham error-- titter like little school girls at how clever it is that a brewery in Salt Lake City sells a beer with a famous Mormon painting on the label.
Almost all kosher food is also halal, but there are exceptions - most prominently alcohol. Some Moslems won't even eat anything cooked with alcohol, even if it's all evaporated during the cooking, so they won't have anything with vanilla flavouring.
One big difference between kosher and halal rules for species is that kosher species are identified by rules. The Bible says that to be kosher a land animal must chew its cud and have split hooves. If a ruminant pig were to be discovered or invented, there is no question that it would be kosher. But I don't think halal species are identified by rules; as far as I know the haram species are named, and anything else is halal. In our hypothetical, my guess is that most Moslem jurists would take the attitude that "pigs is pigs".
Yea, I did get carried away. The newsgirl last night was going off about this, and I recall her doing a happy story at the Utah Olympics about the beer and the two facedness grated.
I recall very well, because my wife purchased a beret hat based on the news girl wearing one at the games.
By the way, while Eugene gave me the hat tip, let ME give a hat tip to my friend John Palchak in Pittsburgh who told me about the story about a "Channukah ham."
Clearly, someone has never heard of Boca burgers with veggie bacon and soy cheese...
...oh, wait, you probably meant a tasty kosher bacon cheeseburger.
That's good. :)
Still, very funny.
Was I the only one expecting a 'reply' from "Simpson"? :o)
Milhouse, thanks for the edification about kosher and halal. So an Orthodox Jew is permitted coq au vin, but an observant Muslim isn't. Would it be the other way around with beef stroganoff, that is an Orthodox Jew couldn't eat it no matter the meat used to make it, while a Muslim could if the meat were halal? (And I wasn't really serious when I asked if Muslims might feel more comfortable with glatt kosher. My understanding is that many religious Jews think that glatt takes it beyond what is required by halacha.)
Thanks. Maybe I will have to do some reading, since I have more questions than I realized when we started. Muslims on milk and meat together - OK? What explains the commonalities and the differences between kasherus and halal, while Christians know from neither? Were Muslims taking the lead from Jews, e.g., strict prohibition on pork products, or did they go off entirely on their own? Do Muslims have any special dietary dispensations of the sort Jews do when eating out in Chineses restaurants? (see Portnoy's Complaint)
Neurodoc, indeed Beef Stroganoff would be perfectly halal. Shellfish is a disputed issue in Islam; some permit it, some don't. As for coq au vin, as I understand it many Moslem jurists do not allow it, but some do because there is no alcohol in the finished product.
There are several points of similarity between kashrut and halal, and more generally between Judaism and Islam. That's because the people who formed modern Christianity were copying Roman and Greek models, and dropped anything of Judaism that was too dissimilar, while the people who formed Islam were moving in the other direction, taking Judaism as a model of a monotheistic religion.
Kosher species are a subset of halal species, at least until our ruminant pig is discovered or invented. And kosher slaughter, or something like it, seems to have been common in 7th century Arabia, used by Xians and Sabeans (whoever they were) as well as by Jews and pagan Arabs. "People of the book" could be presumed to slaughter their meat in more or less the correct (halal) way, and not to have dedicated the animal to any pagan deity; the only defect would be that it had not been specifically dedicated to Allah, and that defect could be remedied at the time of eating.