Hamas Attack on Gaza Crossing:
"The crossing is used for agricultural produce and to send humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip." There have been several attacks recently by "militants" on the crossing used to send fuel and food into Gaza. They are playing a "heads we win, tails you lose game." Keep the crossings open, and we'll kill Israelis. Close them, and the wrath of the "international community" will come down on Israel for a "humanitarian disaster" in Gaza. Whether or not the people of Gaza suffer and starve appears to be of much greater concern to the Israeli government than to Hamas.
It's of greater concern to the Israelis than to the "international community" as well. You have to feel a little sorry for the few decent Palestinians that must statistically exist; both their own leaders and the world in general are happy to sacrifice them as pawns for the sake of Israel's annihilation (statistically, people "pickled by Jew hatred" are in the majority. I can't think of a single country, besides the United States, that has an actual pro-Israel foreign policy, and the vast majority actively work to undermine its very existence), and the only governmental organization that shows any concern for them whatsoever - the Israeli government - is, eventually, going to be forced into the Roman solution ("where they make a desert, they call it peace") by the constant Palestinian provocation.
And so we may skip past disingenuity, would you give us your ingenuous perspective on "I/P issues."
If you turn your children into terrorists, you can expect them to be treated like terrorists. The commander in your story had the moral courage to protect Israeli lives. I consider him a hero.
I'm sure his ingenuous perspective is that the Pals are good and Israelis are evil.
It does take a "unique" moral compass to consider threatening to kill a 10 year old heroic. Or tossing grenades into houses of worship heroic. Perhaps you think the guy in Florida that was planning to blow up mosques is a hero too?
By the way, it's not my story. It's the story of ex-IDF members.
This is exactly how things were 20 years ago, and the only thing that will stop them from being that way in 20 more years is that the region will run out of water.
I so wish that Amerikans had given Europe's Jews the chance to immigrate to a place like Arizona or Nevada, where they and their descendants and other persecuted Jews could grow their oranges without fostering an eternal state of warfare.
Of course, if they were in Arizona or Nevada, they might have to hew to Amerikan ideas of human rights, like granting their women and religious minorities equal rights, terminating the Orthodox monopoly on marriage and refraining from putting babies' peckers in their mouths.
But tell us why you think the Palestinians in Gaza are not blameworthy for these murderous efforts to prevent the delivery of supplies to them? Or do you think "Palestinians in Gaza" is over-inclusive, the fault being only that of the "bad" Hamas ("militants"), none of the "good" Hamas (schools, hospitals, social work, relief efforts, anti-corruption, etc.) and rest of the populace?
I'm sorry. I think you're confusing Jews with your BFFs the Islamofascists.
PC:
'Enhanced' interrogation techniques like the ones in your story - excuse me, in the story you posted - are both effective (as the story shows) and moral; in fact, as they are effective, it would be morally wrong not to use them where they are useful, ie, against terrorists. The rock-throwing 15-year-old is (hopefully was, heh heh) a terrorist and an attempted murderer; the 10-year-old who picked up a few bruises was concealing him from the authorities, and so was a terrorist himself and an accessory to attempted murderer; he deserved what he got. If you want to blame someone for this 'inhumanity', blame the Palestinians who train their children to murder Israelis, hide bombs and rocket launchers in their places of 'worship', and so on.
You are a disgusting human being.
And if you think that, tell me; how much charity work would the Manson Family have to do before you started defending their human rights record?
ithaqua: Your stance is morally corrupt. I would not live in a country where kicking 10-year-olds is an acceptable form of questioning. But maybe that's just me and my crazy "no beating children" way of thinking.
Now, so we might judge MacIntyre's reliability as a reporter, assuring ourselves that he does not willfully misrepresent or otherwise distort his reports to conform to his own biases and the those of The Independent's readers, can you share with us any of Mr. MacIntyre's stories told him by Palestinian "militants" with the blood of Israeli children on their hands?
Straw men are fun, AMIRITE?
If you think air strikes are a proportional response to a kid throwing rocks, then I guess kicking a 10 year old is no big deal. Again, I'll stay on the no-beating-children side of the equation.
Sorry, but I can't countenance the idea of Rabbi's passing on herpes or aids justified by "metzizah b'peh." Indeed, if the resettled Jews in Arizona or Nevada kept doing that, I have to fake being an 8-day-old boy and call the Texas Rangers to come and take away 400 of their kids.
That was my initial reaction too, but who am I to argue with the brilliant Volokh commenters?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah
I rest my case. Those who have eyes to see, let them see.
If you want to argue otherwise, feel free.
Anyway, I have other things to do now, so must go. I trust you, PC, and the others of your ilk who are sure to show up here will enjoy chatting.
I was just paraphrasing what the world's most famous Jew said (cf Matt 11:15).
Off to kick some 10 year olds? Or do broad brushes only apply when you do it?
ithaqua, what exactly would this "Roman solution" consist of?
If Palestinians and Israel's neighbors let Israel be, the cycle of violence would stop. If Israel disarmed, it would not be left alone. It would not continue to exist (yes I realize that many think that is the best prospect). My question: What percentage of Jews from Israel's neighbors have been allowed to immigrate into Israel? What percentage of displaced Palestinians have been allowed refuge by Israel's neighbors?
As an aside on houses of worship losing some protected status, did anyone catch the article this week on a munitions accident in an Iranian mosque? It made me wonder if armories are an essential design element of some mosques.
OK PC, you have convinced me, I accept that it wasn't sophistry but rather the other.
I don't really have an opinion about the I/P conflict. I state that up front. I think both sides should be free of violence and hatred towards the other.
But the way people talk about Palestinians... it's shocking. They're human beings, people. Just like you. Yes, antisemites say horrible things about Israelis/Jews. I would address this same horror at them.
I guess it's easy to trade sharp barbs by keyboard. It's easy to erect that ideological edifice any time this conflict is mentioned, to fire all your intellectual and rhetorical weapons at anyone not agreeing with you b/c if you're not with us you're against us.
Yes, this probably will be the state of things in 20 years. Only all of you, so full of vitriol, will be 20 years older, if not dead, still full of vitriol. Yes, yes, I know, it's an intractable problem b/c the other side keeps provoking us. Whoever the other side is. Both sides will make the same point, point their fingers in the same way. "Not me! Not us! You're the problem!"
Ladies and gentlemen, you are the problem. I'm sure there will be snarky, clever, ever-witty responses at the ready. You are the problem.
These are all human beings, people. Human beings.
You are the problem.
Ladies and gentlemen, you are the problem.
There will also always be the erudite condescending few to explain that both sides are the same. The German invasion of France? Both sides had legitimate arguments. Pol Pot's extermination of the eyeglass-wearing-intellectuals? Both sides say they were provoked. There will always be people who tut tut, argue all sides are beneath them, and repeat calls for dialog until the killers have either been stopped or have run out of victims.
And yet some are worse:
As a general rule I think Hamas is a corrupt organization that is incredibly damaging to the Palestinians.
PC, care to make a stand on whether Hamas is also damaging to Jews? -and if so, if that bothers you at all?
How about that the P's are not as bad as all that and the Israelis are not as good as all that, and vice versa? I find it curious that this is a major issue in which people feel no compunction about being kneejerk. Not only is the debate disingenuous by oversimplification, but also fairly predictable. When was the last time there was anything new brought to the table by those who deem themselves so educated on the issues?
Apologies to Matt Groening, but from where I sit the debate invariably devolves into "There go those clowns in Palestine/Israel again. What a bunch of clowns."
Yes and yes.
A truly morally courageous person is one who is willing to sacrifice his private morality for the public good.
"ithaqua, what exactly would this "Roman solution" consist of?"
If the Palestinians refuse to make peace with Israel - and, remember, Israel has been holding out the olive branch for literally decades - and continue to shelter and support terrorists and child murderers within their civilian population, eventually it will be necessary to take steps to dispose of that civilian population, one way or the other. Think Native Americans versus American settlers. If the Muslims insist that the only acceptable peace is one where the Jews are driven into the sea, then somebody's getting driven into the sea - and I'd bet on one of the most advanced militaries in the world against a hate-crazed rabble of medieval barbarians. No offense meant to any Muhammedans who might be reading this :)
"If Palestinians and Israel's neighbors let Israel be, the cycle of violence would stop."
Exactly so. The fact is, though, that the Palestinians won't let Israel be, and the cycle will spiral on to its obvious conclusion.
"You are the problem."
I shouted out, "Who killed the Kennedys?" when after all, it was
you and meMuslim fanatics.You lost any point you may have had right there. Please return to the cocoon of your critical theory class and resume complaining about "the man".
BTW what would the US do if Mexico lobbed missiles into San Diego on a regular basis?
wow. That's the philosophy of the suicide bomber, you know. Once someone ignores his moral compass, everything becomes allowed.
The next post was by Neurodoc, who agreed.
Then I woke up.
Well, if Barack Hussein Obama is President, he will consult with his spiritual Sith Lord, Jeremiah Wright, who will advise President Obama that those redneck crackers clinging to their guns and bibles in San Diego deserve to have more missles fired at them from Mexico.
If that happens, it's Civil War II on baby!
The conduct of the Palestinian terrorists (including their "government") is much, much worse than the Israeli government's conduct. That, however, is not a justification for wrongful acts by the Israeli government. "What they did is worse!" is schoolyard reasoning. I'm particularly concerned because wrongful acts by Palestinian terrorists do not justify attacks against the vast majority of Palestinians who are not terrorists. (They do seem to be sympathetic to terrorism, and no doubt the vast majority are virulently anti-semitic, but those are thought crimes. The same goes for anti-Arab racists on the Israeli side, though there seem to be fewer of those.)
I would be much less concerned about both sides if they were making a serious effort to limit their attacks to military targets. The Israeli government frequently (but not always) makes a fair bit of effort (not nearly enough IMHO), while the Palestinian terrorists (including their "government") make none.
Not nearly enough! Come on. What other country in similar circumstances would go to the lengths Israel does to protect civilians? Let's remember that the Arabs use civilians as a political and military shield. Those launching rockets from Gaza will take their children with them to the launcher.
The world also seems to have a double standard. Russia has certainly not held back in its attacks against civilians in Chechnya. Yet we hear no (or very few) pious speeches in the UN against Russia. We see no demonstrations in Berkeley against Russia over the atrocities in Chechnya. Somehow everyone seems to get a pass but Israel. I suppose if Israel was a big oil exporter things would be different.
Finally the West as whole are a bunch of hypocrites when it comes to collective guilt. The Allies killed more German civilians after WWII then they did during WWII. All justified with notions of collective guilt.
Your protestations about "schoolyard reasoning" are irrelevant. The Palis should thank their lucky stars the Israelis don't just genocide their asses.
How many settlements ago was that? Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely NOT pro-Palestinian. I suppose I have close to Elliot Reed's view but a little more negative. A pox on both their houses...
Yes, the Palestinians are more brutal, more corrupt, less moral, more racist etc. But, unfortunately the Israeli government acts in unacceptably brutal, corrupt, immoral and racist ways.
The taking of land IS an issue...not one that folks should be blowing up citizens for, but, war is going to continue to happen as long as Israel sees no problem with continued expansion.
Which puts you on the side of using children as soldiers, because no matter what acts they perform, you would grant them immunity, making them the perfect soldier... the one that cannot be touched.
There is a difference between righteousness and self-righteousness that you appear to have missed.
The absolute blindness on this is always educational to me. It opens a window into how people rationalized horrid actions on the "other".
Oh BTW, how is this bien apercu supposed to relate to the subject of this particular thread, "Hamas Attack on Gaza Crossing"?
We are ashamed of you Jimmy for sucking up to terrorists. And your poetry sucks.
The next post was by Neurodoc, who agreed.
Then I woke up.
I think it only fair to point out that DB's post did not address this story, but rather a different subject entirely, and he shouldn't have to weigh in on anything someone chooses to put in a comment thread. It strikes me as unfair for you to then make the leap that he implicitly approves these actions.
Like almost everyone, I am disgusted at the thought of someone beating a 10-year-old and threatening his life to find someone who threw rocks, and have nothing but contempt for the notion that this would be a defensible act. IF something like this did happen, or if it ever does happen, a decent commitment to justice requires that it be punished. Fortunately the Israeli government agrees, for the Independent's story, while seeming to doubt the Israeli government, dutifully reports their response: The military said that Israeli Defence Forces soldiers operate according to "a strict set of moral guidelines" and that their expected adherence to them only "increases wherever and whenever IDF soldiers come in contact with civilians". It added that "if evidence supporting the allegations is uncovered, steps are taken to hold those involved to the level of highest judicial severity". It also said: "The Military Advocate General has issued a number of indictments against soldiers due to allegations of criminal behaviour ... Soldiers found guilty were punished severely by the Military Court, in proportion to the committed offence."
You may argue that allegations against Israeli soldiers are under-investigated and under-prosecuted by Israeli authorities. Yet you cannot deny that several Israeli soldiers have been prosecuted by their own government for criminal acts against Palestinians. How many Palestinians have been prosecuted by their own people for criminal acts against Jews?
unThoughtful, if you are awake now, and no longer confused about what you have dreamed and what is in fact real, make clear your differences with what I have said in the course of this thread and I will respond to you. But I'm not a Freudian and I don't do dream analysis.
Of course there are atrocities in most every conflict - the question is, is the arguer aware of them. If not, that is usually a good indication of mindless support of an idealogical position - a bad thing, I hope you will agree.
Many of the comments above seemed to show an ignorance that neither side (P/I) can claim to be the "good guy". If a person is unable to identify the major issues on each side, how can their argument be considered credible or anything more than propoganda?
I trust that if this thread were about the Allies versus Nazi Germany, you would be willing to state a position in favor of one or the other, even if other posters to the thread had not proven themselves as other than "irrational" or "mindless" (which is worse?) by reciting at least 3 atrocities on each side. You would, wouldn't you?
(Recently, in another DB thread that dealt with charges of antisemitism, one person kept posting to object again and again to any discussion of the matter because they insisted "antisemitism" had lost its meaning through misuse and abuse. I thought that nonsense the first time it was said, and a nuisance when it was repeated several times over. Instead of advancing the conversation in any way, it effectively demanded an abandonment of it. Phaedra, you may conclude that any or all of us are "irrational" or "mindless" ideologues, but saying that and nothing more is no contribution, in my opinion.)
Talking about the Gaza Crossing attack in a vacuum is pointless, without the context of what has gone on before. And talking about what has gone on before without recognizing the valid claims of each side is pointless and leads to discussions.... much... like... what.... I'm... typing now. Damn! Drawn in again - when will I learn.
I'll leave on this note. People here have expressed their support for torturing a 10 year old boy and or for removing the Palestinians the way the Native Americans. That is sick, and it needs to be pointed out and condemned.
My initial "dream" comment related not to this particular post of DB's, but to the constant refrain from both Neurodoc and DB that suggests it is impossible for either of them to find (or imagine) an act done by an Israeli to a Palestinian that is not justifiable. One might have thought torturing an innocent 15 year old could have been the sort of thing to qualify, but, it seems....no. Willingness to torture 15 year old Palestinians is, apparently, the only thing that prevents an invincible army of Palestinian 15 year old soldiers from casting Israel into the sea.
It's really quite hard to take someone so ethically blunted seriously, especially neurodoc, who with an amazing level of hysteria can't let one critical comment about Israel go without response, his effort, I guess, to prevent the 4th most powerful military force on earth (with nuclear weapons) from being pushed into the sea by people throwing rocks.
"Does anyone recall any reports of curches" (sic, churches) [being used for military purposes?]
Yes -- Monte Cassino -- Response: We bombed it into rubble.
The rest of it about average incomes and your "psychiatric" musings is too silly for me to respond to at the moment, but I'll try to get back to it at some other time. Then we talk about such things as your principled philosophical objections to Medicare, the ones that do not keep you from participating in the program and enjoying the income it provides you.