The Volokh Conspiracy

Life in the Holodeck:

Australian science fiction writer John Birmingham has an interesting discussion of the possibility that we might all end up living in a holodeck forever (HT: Instapundit). If advancing technology ever allows us to create a virtual reality environment that truly felt "real" (as Star Trek's fictional Holodeck does), it would be easy to program experiences that are far more stimulating and pleasurable than anything we could get in the material world. Would the vast majority of humanity then choose to spend all their time in the holodeck? I don't know. But it's an interesting possibility.

The issue is not a new one. Political philosopher Robert Nozick raised a similar question back in 1974, when he considered the possibility of an "experience machine" - effectively the same thing as the holodeck, except that the participants might not know that they weren't in the "real" world. Nozick argued that living your life in an experience machine would be undesirable. But I suspect that a lot of people won't be deterred by his and other arguments against it.

The issue is not immediately urgent. Despite the eager hopes of Trekkies and others, we don't yet have a working holodeck. But advances in virtual reality technology make it a more pressing concern than it was back when Nozick wrote about it. On balance, I tend to think that there is enough diversity of preferences that we won't ever have Birmingham's nightmare scenario under which we all "end up Matrixing ourselves in very short order." Some people would stay out because they are achievement-oriented, and others for ethical or religious reasons. But it's hard to say for sure.

TRE:
* We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?
o Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7 (Subject termination advised)
5.12.2008 6:45pm
JB:
There was a short story in 2001 on this very topic. People enter a VR world for some unspecified amount of time, and find that when they try to leave there's this terrible burning sensation and they can't. They're found by people in the real world, who discover that they've all died of dehydration.

If we enter a VR world, eventually we'll be turned off by whoever or whatever remains outside.
5.12.2008 6:48pm
alias:
I've noticed that there are several prominent universities that not only don't have holodecks, but they haven't even allocated funding toward trying to get one.
5.12.2008 6:51pm
Forsooth And:
"Take the red pill."
5.12.2008 7:01pm
SenatorX (mail):
I always feel like I am going to die right before the real juicy tech comes out. Sigh.

There is a really good book call Altered Carbon that is only a few years old where people's consciousness is captured in a little shunt in your spine and bodies become "sleeves". One interesting twist on this was when you are sentenced to prison they just take your shunt and you live in a virtual prison for your term. The extra sucky part was you didn’t get your body back when your time was served. I can't remember what the rules were but you could go in one race and age and come out in an entirely different body. Made for some difficult family situations. Of course the rich lived forever in perfectly young healthy cloned sleeves.

The story line is great though and the main character is good. Ex UN soldier where rather than send ships to colonies to bust up revolts they would train people (like the main character) in adapting to new bodies and situations and then digitally shoot them to the revolting planets into new sleeves (combat sleeves sometimes). They would adapt quickly and infiltrate the planet in various ways to stop rebellions. Very cool book.
5.12.2008 7:07pm
Perseus (mail):
Would government have the right to regulate the use of such machines on morals grounds (like mind altering substances)?
5.12.2008 7:09pm
FoolsMate:
I find myself in the utterly ridiculous position of wanting to quibble over the technical details of "it will be easy to program experiences that are far more stimulating and pleasurable than anything we could get in the material world", when we have already assumed "holodeck technology".
5.12.2008 7:25pm
theobromophile (www):
Didn't Ray Bradbury have something similar in Fahrenheit 451? IIRC, it was not all-encompassing, but people would go into virtual-reality television rooms, with screens on three sides and characters who would identify them by name. (Alternatively, I'm getting senile.)

In order to make the experience authentic, wouldn't you have to remove the ability of the person inside of the machine to know that it was all fake? While there are a host of human experiences that can be simulated - Mr. Birmingham mentions the five senses - there are many that cannot be replicated, such as human interaction, mental stimulation (query whether it can ever be feigned), love, compassion, and, not to sound like a Lifetime movie, the strength of character that comes from facing adversity. In order to develop those feelings, the VR machine would have to (paradoxically) make the person inside suffer, or experience something akin to suffering... which kind of defeats the purpose of a happy, feel-good machine.

I suspect, incidentally, that Christians would never go for this. (The list of people who wouldn't submit to such an existence likely extends beyond Christians, but I mentioned them because I cannot imagine that a group of people who believe that the height of human happiness is a loving relationship with their Creator would voluntarily submit themselves to an existence that cuts themselves off from such a relationship.)
5.12.2008 7:34pm
Ian Maitland (mail):
Aside from morality, what about the practical difficulties? Who would maintain the holodeck and its denizens, when they have drunk from Lethe, and who would watch the watchers?
5.12.2008 7:42pm
Dan Simon (mail) (www):
Why bother with all that virtual reality crap, when we have blogs?
5.12.2008 7:50pm
Observer:
Would people be able to interact with other real people in the Holodeck? It seems to me that this would be a determinative factor as to whether a large number of people would want to spend time on it. Even in things like Second Life, part of the point is that you are interacting with real people, unlike with, say, a single-player computer game.
5.12.2008 7:50pm
Teh Anonymous:
John Barnes, in the later books in his Giraut Leones series, postulates a future where an increasingly large proportion of humanity has opted to live "in the box" - essentially in a state where they only interact with the fictional worlds generated by their computers.
5.12.2008 7:57pm
anym_avey (mail):
Would the vast majority of humanity then choose to spend all their time in the holodeck? I don't know. But it's an interesting possibility.

I don't know about the "vast majority", but permit me to familiarize you with certain insidious Holodeck Simulators known as "World of Warcraft" and "Second Life".

(And Everquest before them, and Ultima Online before that..)
5.12.2008 8:01pm
Guest101:

Didn't Ray Bradbury have something similar in Fahrenheit 451? IIRC, it was not all-encompassing, but people would go into virtual-reality television rooms, with screens on three sides and characters who would identify them by name. (Alternatively, I'm getting senile.)


My recollection is that it was more like wall-sized television than virtual reality. There may have been some interactivity, but the viewer was essentially passive.


Would people be able to interact with other real people in the Holodeck? It seems to me that this would be a determinative factor as to whether a large number of people would want to spend time on it.

I'm not sure why you assume that multiplayer VR would be more popular than single-player, assuming the "NPCs" in a single-player scenario were sufficiently lifelike. Multiplayer VR would quickly turn into something resembling the real social order--albeit one in which people can fly, cast spells, whatever. But there would certainly be social hierarchy and unequal distribution of wealth. Plenty of people might prefer the single-player version with a world full of adoring-- and pliable-- simulacra.
5.12.2008 8:01pm
Tareeq (www):
How would we pay for it?
5.12.2008 8:24pm
Pyrrhus (mail) (www):
"Would government have the right to regulate the use of such machines on morals grounds (like mind altering substances)?"

No but they'd regulate it anyway.
5.12.2008 8:33pm
Daniel Chapman (mail):
"Otherworld" by Tad Williams is an interesting take on this sort of idea... a bunch of rich old men create a VR system with the processing power of the human brain, and try to find a way to abandon their physical bodies to live forever as gods of their virtual world.

Short version: it didn't work out. Quality books, IMO.
5.12.2008 8:36pm
Tracy Johnson (www):
Zager and Evans in 1969:

In the year 5555
Your arms hangin limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doin' that for you
5.12.2008 11:55pm
Orielbean (mail):
Ray Bradbury wrote a short story that's used in English classes often. It's about a family who automates their house with all the latest labor-saving tech. One such invention is a play room for the kids that is VR. They pick the African safari, complete with authentic smells.

And authentic animals that end up eating the kids. The classic twist of "be careful what you wish for."

Can't find the name of the story on google, sorry.
5.13.2008 12:13am
Jimmy S.:
Wasn't there a Star Trek where one of the characters (Professor Moriarty from Data's Sherlock Holmes holodeck program) became sentient and demanded the Enterprise crew find a way for him to leave the holodeck?
5.13.2008 12:17am
David Schwartz (mail):
I think people would definitely spend large amounts of time in a holodeck if they could.

Most of the objections raised in this thread are pretty silly.

Why wouldn't the people outside switch us off? Umm, for the same reason criminals don't kill you. They have nothing to gain and much to lose and you pose no harm or threat to them.

How would we pay for it or keep the electricity on? Well, we could work inside the holodeck just as easily as outside it. Likely what would be valued are things like new content, works of art, and other things that can be produced in a virtual reality as easily as in the real one. It's unlikely that maintaining such a system would be any more expensive in real terms than playing WoW is today.

Who would maintain/watch it? Who maintains your computer now or watches you when you play WoW? If it broke, you could buy a new one or have it fixed. A few minutes or hours in reality would be no worse than having your television break.

As for whether people would want to live inside it and spend all of most of their time there, I think that would largely depend on the state of the outside world. If we can easily travel among the planets and have our own real paradises, then why stay in VR? If not, and the planet is crowded and polluted, then why leave?

Humans could go either way. Check back in a few thousand years.
5.13.2008 12:33am
cirby (mail):
Orielbean:

"The Veldt." In the collection "The Illustrated Man."


David Schwartz:

There are already people around the world called "gold farmers" (mostly in China, apparently), who spend hour upon hour in World of Warcraft doing really tedious mining, fishing, and the like, who get paid a pittance (but enough to live on). It's a very small step from that to putting someone in a full-immersion rig and leting them be the equivalent of Cast Members at Disney World...
5.13.2008 12:58am
MXE (mail):
What's up with those Australian SF writers? Another one, Greg Egan, wrote a book, Diaspora, that deals with this subject (among many others).

Some post-human civilizations are "solipsistic" in that they spend all their time with conjured-up experiences rather than interacting with the real world. This doesn't spoil anything much, but they end up in pretty bad trouble when a real-world threat arises that just may turn them all into paste...and the civilizations that looked outward do better.
5.13.2008 1:08am
bob (www):
Two comments:

First, it's kind of amusing to see people whose primary work output is strings of symbols and intellectual argument taking the position that if people's consciousness moved into a virtual reality, they'd cease to live productive lives and would become irrelevant to the Real World. There's no reason to believe that they would be more limited in their perceptions than those who weren't "wired," no reason to believe that the same technologies that allowed reality simulation wouldn't support telepresence, with much greater mobility through the net than would be possible for those lacking VR interfaces. The argument that those off-line would take control and starve those on-line makes no more inherent sense than the argument that today's farmers would decide to stop growing food and starve the non-farm population.

Second, we are facing a serious energy crisis. We can't keep generating carbon dioxide at this rate, and it will be difficult to find alternative energy sources. As telepresence improves, more people will be able to work as effectively at home as they do in an office. They may be able to do so without the social isolation that can occur with today's modest systems. If that happens, the amount of energy we need to spend on transportation will drop. If VR improves, the amount of real leisure goods people need/want may drop.
5.13.2008 3:31am
Sk (mail):
A quibble or a serious concern.
What exactly is meant by the 'real world?' Holodecks are basically artificial worlds designed for entertainment. How are holodecks different in theory (not in effectiveness) from:

rock concerts
football games
tv
movies
books
daydreams
malls
computer games
anything else that is used for entertainment?
I don't think there is a theoretical difference between reading a book (and pretending to be an orphan in Dickensian England) or sitting on a holodeck, and pretending to be an orphan in Dickensian England.

And once you remove everything that is entertainment from our lives, and sleep time, and everything that is simple life maintenance (eating, going to the bathroom, bathing, etc). How much is left?

Its basically work, and interactions with human beings. And if could choose between 8 hours in a holodeck, and 8 hours in a cube farm, it would be an easy choice.

Thus, as far as I can tell, the 'real world' is 'other human beings.' And being in a holodeck, absent human contact, may be unhealthy, but no more unhealthy than being a perpetual reader, or tv watcher, or computer game player.

Sk
5.13.2008 9:44am
Anon #319:
I have to give ST:VOY credit for at least broaching this issue. It seemed near the end, they did more and more episodes about the holodeck and the EMH. I recall they posited that if the holodeck people create real feelings in the crew then the characters are essentially "real enough." It was ultimately a dodge, but at least they were willing to stick their toe in the pool.
5.13.2008 9:59am
Nick P.:
See also Vernor Vinge, "The Cookie Monster"
Karl Schroeder Lady of Mazes
Also the background details in Schroeder's Sun of Suns
5.13.2008 10:16am
Deoxy (mail):
The thing is, people always miss the point regarding the Holodeck - it is the ultimate tool, as it can make anything needed.

Surgeries would happen in the holodeck, as the doctor would have as many clean utensils as needed. The patient would stay in a Holodeck until they were healed, as the "stitches" the doctor left inside their body aren't real, anyway (never have to take them out, just turn off the holodeck when you're done).

Manufacturing? Done. No need to "tool up" the assembly line, just load the right one from memory and fire up the holodeck.

One person once said, "When we make holdoecks, the only job left will be squigeeing the floor of the holodeck" (he was making sexual implications), but of course, the holodeck could create a janitor to do that.

And, once we've got them, there's no reason I've ever heard to not put them EVERYWHERE - hallways, bedrooms, kitchens, etc.

Everyone can have all the servants they want. Assuming you have some level of redundancy, the holodeck can create technicians to maintain themselves (all they would need is raw material).

And all of this assuming that "holodecks" have to be enclosed - if there were ever a way to take them anywhere you went, there would essentially be no productive activity that would not be replaced by "holo-workers".

Think people wouldn't use it? Well, the Amish wouldn't. And there would be newer versions of the Amish... but that would be an insignificant part of the population.

Now, as to entertainment, "matrixing" ourselves, etc... that's a harder question, but my best guess is that the vast majority of humanity will be "semi-matrixed" (interacting with the real world only through their version of "the matrix") in 3 generations.

Why? Because there's no need to come out of it to interact with the world - it does the translating for you. Children who grow up with it likely won't even know how to live without it.
5.13.2008 10:25am
Avatar (mail):
One points out that there are perfectly objective reasons to keep in touch with base reality.

Emergencies happen. Your building might catch fire (advanced tech can probably help here), or a hurricane might come (not so much). Your power might go out in a storm. Someone might come up and cut your power source/hack your holodeck/whatever as a prelude to killing you, raping you, whatever. Or the same thing might be happening to your neighbor, and you need to go help.

Let's assume that your holodeck-activities leave you in pretty good physical shape. That still doesn't mean that you'll know what to do back in reality (and, of course, you'll need some tools that will work without your holodeck working.) Attitude mismatches can get you in trouble - if you're playing military simulators all day and you've been shot 50 times in the last two hours, then you go out to confront a burglar, it's going to be hard to keep in mind that said burglar can actually kill you with that gun of his!

(Though in some ways, some of the above arguments are just silly. Global warming problem? Please - think about the kind of technology that you'd have to have to make this work. The brain-in-a-jar, Matrix-y variants don't take as much sophistication, but they have other problems...)
5.13.2008 10:59am
SpenceB:
["What exactly is meant by the 'real world?' " —Sk ]


—- it's quite plausible you already 'exist' as a HoloDeck-type entity ... you just don't realize it.

The joys of metaphysics.

________


"Our perceived reality is perhaps just a fiction playing itself out in a box on someone's table"

— Capt Jean-Luc Picard (STNG: "Ship in a Bottle")
5.13.2008 11:13am
bob (www):
I wasn' suggesting that we'd be living our lives in holodecks, just that as telepresence and virtual reality improve, we will save money on transportation, and that as virtual items become more satisfying, we will use fewer real ones. In most cases, those changes will reduce energy use.

It's already happened with music, drama, and the printed page. People still seek real experiences, but not every day.
5.13.2008 11:18am
The River Temoc (mail):
"Ship in a Bottle" was one of the best TNG episodes. There was also a very good episode from the second season of STARGATE ATLANTIS, which I saw last night, which featured a virtual reality that the participants perceived as real.
5.13.2008 1:34pm
ReaderY:
And how do we actually know that this isn't what's happening right now?
5.13.2008 1:43pm
JBL:
I'm unconvinced that "it would be easy to program experiences that are far more stimulating and pleasurable than anything we could get in the material world." In fact, I suspect it's rather unlikely. It may be possible (or even easy) to program things that are more exciting that what most people do every day, but that's a very different question.

Of course that's not the only factor. It's entirely possible we're here for someone else's amusement, not our own.
5.13.2008 2:16pm
Cato (mail):
What is the difference between a world in which the unreal seems real and a world in which whether real or unreal the experience, the observer always FEELS GOOD about the experience?

Think soma of "Brave New World" or the treatment of the assassins in Arabic literature.

As for me, give me "I Had Trouble in Getting to Solla Sollew"
5.13.2008 2:42pm
FantasiaWHT:
We're all just creations in God's holodeck.
5.13.2008 3:04pm
EIDE_Interface (mail):

ReaderY:
And how do we actually know that this isn't what's happening right now?



Exactly, we're already brains-in-a-vat, but refuse to accept the awful reality.
5.13.2008 4:02pm
Sk (mail):
"I'm unconvinced that "it would be easy to program experiences that are far more stimulating and pleasurable than anything we could get in the material world." In fact, I suspect it's rather unlikely."

What? Its happening right now. Every time a teenager turns his computer on and plays Halo or Doom, he is choosing an alternative reality that is better than the real world-otherwise, he wouldn't do it: he'd do something in the real world instead (whatever the 'real world' is).

It may be that its not good enough to reject the real world for all time, but it is definitely rejecting the real world for a segment of time (an hour, or 4, or 8). The same applies to someone reading a book,or watching a movie, or any of the other entertainment venues I mentioned.
5.13.2008 4:14pm
Brian Erst:
In re:"The Veldt" by Ray Bradbury. It's not the kids that get eaten - it's the parents when they try to shut down the VR. The kids prefer the VR to their parents and, well... even virtual lions will be lions...
5.13.2008 4:46pm
David Friedman (mail) (www):
"Despite the eager hopes of Trekkies and others, we don't yet have a working holodeck. "

You are mistaken. You are looking at the low tech part, screens and speakers and goggles and such, rather than the high tech--the human imagination.

Currently something over a hundred million people worldwide spend time in massively multiplayer online roleplaying games. World of Warcraft, the best known one in the U.S., claims about ten million customers. Current estimates are that over a hundred thousand people make their living by earning assets online and selling them for realspace money.

As Castronovo argues in Synthetic Worlds--see my review in Liberty not long ago--such online virtual reality is a serious competitor to realspace for human attention. For a longer discussion, take a look at the chapter on VR in the webbed draft of my Future Imperfect.

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Future_Imperfect.html
5.13.2008 4:51pm
RT1 (mail):
This is essentially what the album "Who's Next" by The Who was based on. Townsend started writing it in 1970 and it was called the lifehouse project. "The essence of the story-line was a kind a futuristic scene…It’s a fantasy set at a time when rock ’n’ roll didn’t exist. The world was completely collapsing and the only experience that anybody ever had was through test tubes. In a way they lived as if they were in television programs." People were strapped into "Experience suits" called "Lifesuits".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifehouse_%28album%29
5.13.2008 7:12pm
JBL:
Re: World of Warcraft etc.

That's kinda the point. WoW does not in fact create a world that is "far more stimulating and pleasurable than anything we could get in the material world."

It may create a world that is more exciting than whatever else a certain person was likely to do sitting at home that particular evening. It may be easier to access than various exciting real-world experiences. It doesn't categorically exceed the real world in any significant aspect. Beating an enemy in WoW is not more exciting than a real-life sparring match against a real person. Easier perhaps, more accessible perhaps, and there's an entirely different set of externalities, but it's hard to argue that it's more stimulating.

It is true that some people immerse themselves as completely as possible in WoW today. But it is a small minority, even among people who play the game regularly.

The same is true of other activities. Sports are arguably real and arguably artificial. Many people devote a considerable amount of time and energy to sports, sometimes as a participant but more frequently just as an observer. But very few people actually play a sport to the exclusion of all other activities.

People spend a lot of time in virtual worlds today. As VR technology improves, I expect that trend to continue. But that's a far cry from suggesting that VR will surpass reality (whatever it is) or imagination as the primary driver of human experience.
5.13.2008 10:31pm
Gaius Marius:
How do we know that we are not already living a "holodeck" reality?
5.13.2008 11:21pm
HenryH:
Virtual reality has come a long way in the last decade or two but it's still a long way from being anywhere near as real as reality. Virtualizing sight and hearing are relatively straightforward (and even with them there's a lot of work to do) but were aren't really all that close when it comes to touch, smell, and taste, as far as I can tell. Anyway, living a VR life strikes me as a hollow existence. Pun intended.
5.14.2008 12:03pm