On the bright side, the vast majority of these kids are blissfully unaware of their status. They think that they are just normal high-school kids, with normal high-school problems. Imagine what a blow it would be to them if they knew that their status were a matter to suffer over.

Seriously: speaking as a former high-school nerd, part of what makes someone a nerd is that he couldn't care less about status, and that he has little or no regard for the opinions of his peers. If you were one of those high schoolers who constantly worried if you were popular enough, if your grades were dominating enough, or if you were going to the dance with a high-enough-status partner, then your concern for the nerds does you credit, but it is largely misplaced. In fact if you are one of those people, then there were probably nerds who felt sorry for _you_ because of your sad need to be liked and admired by everyone, when they assumed that everyone else secretly shared their mild contempt for you.

This is just part of the human condition. Everyone assumes that everyone else wants what you want, feels what you feel, and has similar priorities --this in spite of the enormous evidence to the contrary. With maturity, hopefully, comes a realization that we all have different priorities and we can give up our contempt for the priorities of others, which causes us to stop feeling sorry for them living the lives that they have chosen.

This is not to deny that there is something unhappy about the isolated lives of many nerds, but there is also something unhappy about the lives of everyone.

I'm not entirely sure I agree.

Well, I do agree that the true "dumb nerd" -- someone lacking in intelligence and seriously awkward is about the bottom of the social tree.

On the other hand, there is definitely a "geek chic" now (there's even a wikipedia page on it...who would have thought) which I've always attributed to the wannabe geeks--those maybe not smart enough to be the top of class or the traditional nerd, but awkward enough to be attracted to the idealized geek.

Actually, I would take it farther and argue that there are an increasing number of social cliques that can be considered "geek" or "nerd" but aren't really linked at all to intelligence. Geek chic, emo, even goth.

One other point that might be worth considering, is that being geeky, nerdy, or a jock can have widely different receptions depending on socio-economic class and race. A guy I knew in highschool was black and autistic--extremely smart, and extremely awkward. As a black male in that position, I think he sometimes had to go through even more hassling than your "average" autistic kid.

By the way, nerds have a word for stupid (or at least not smart) nerds: "goober". This word is used in contexts such as "I couldn't get out of the room; he wouldn't stop lecturing me on the details of automobile hydraulic systems. Jeez, what a goober."

Not that I support stereotypes of people based on intelligence and social skills.

Oh! Oh! We also have a word for people who have high social skills and low intelligence. We call them "artists". Or sometimes "musicians".

Tomorrow, I'm probably going to feel bad that I said that.

Professor Somin,

Drunk-blogging? ;)

I've often felt that many of the world's stupidest libertarians come from this social vein. Certainly this is not to describe all libertarians of any capitalization and we always cringe more when an idiot agrees with us than when one disagrees. I've just often wondered if those who think they are smarter than others more successful than they, but who actually aren't, often turn to libertarianism as a totalizing system that's easy to grasp and can be used to bludgeon those who supposedly stupider than they. To me, this is where so many idiotic libertarians come from and why they don't really understand anything more than the form of the argument.

Of course intelligence isn't necessarily correlated to academic achievement in a particular situation so some here could be falsely categorizing "stupid nerds" as "stupid".

Some of the most pitiful people I've seen are high school teachers. Some of them seem to be fixed into a high school social hierarchy view of the world, I guess because they "peaked" in high school, and they can't stand to have that view challenged. I even know of a situation where some followed a student they didn't like to graduate school a decade after the student graduated and sabotaged them.

I was both a nerd and a jock in high school (1967-71), though I was a perennial 2nd/3rd stringer on the football team. The only athletic award I ever received was one for having the highest GPA on the football team. No, really. (Well, I did letter in football my senior year, but the whole team lettered automatically because we made it to the CIF championship game; I wouldn't have lettered, otherwise.)

I honestly don't remember anyone who could be classified as a 'stupid nerd'. That's not because everyone in the usual nerd circles (e.g., the Tolkein Club -- no, really) was brilliant or a great student -- but they had at least some impulse towards intellectual curiosity and non-conformity. I think most students weren't willing to bear the social costs of being a nerd without some kind of payoff.

Then again, I'm hard pressed to think back to high school and remember anyone I'd classify as 'stupid'. There were a few guys I knew on the football team who weren't the sharpest tacks in the box -- but they could play football a helluva lot better than I could. ..bruce..

Doc Rampage: Artists are social? That's news to me, I must confess.

Most artists I know are nearly tongue-tied, except when it comes to talking about their work and the work, perhaps, of competitors or mentors. Carrying on a conversation with them is like carrying trucks.

Perhaps by "stupid nerd" you mean a person afflicted with Asperger's Syndrome, a type of autism? It's chief trait is social ineptitude. People with Asperger's Syndrome just don't get the social cues that the rest of us do.

When Asperger's Syndrome or autism is the subject of TV discussion, usually very bright, and sympathetic victims are presented. But in the real world, the defect afflicts people of normal and less than normal intelligence too.

Stupid nerds of the world, despair. You probably won't lose your chains even if you somehow manage to unite!

What a nice critique of our Dear Leader.

Don't stupid nerds turn into the likes of Karl Rove and Dick Cheney?

White House Chief of Staff, elected to Congress in his 30s, Secretary of Defense, CEO of a Fortune 500 corporation, Vice President... so Bill, how does your resume stack up compared to that? If this is stupid, what does that make you?

When I read "stupid nerd", I immediately conjured an image of comic book guy from the Simpsons. No?

Being the low-ranking hanger-on in any clique is pretty miserable. I would guess, off the top of my head, that the least athletic jock in any high school is likely to be treated far more cruelly by his peers than the least intelligent geek. And that's probably nothing compared to the least attractive/charming/socially skillful would-be "popular girl"...

When I read "stupid nerd", I immediately conjured an image of comic book guy from the Simpsons. No?

Let's see: business owner, I.Q. of 170, member of Mensa, Master's degree in folklore and mythology... Yes, very stupid. Worst Comment Ever!

Please, revise.

Please, relax.

I didn't really follow but sort of get the sense what you were saying.

Are you talking about Napoleon?

I've always been fascinated with people who choose to drop down a few ranks in the social hierarchy so they can be the proverbial one-eyed king of the blind. I think some of these dumb nerds may fit into this category.

Think of Anthony Michael Hall's character in Sixteen Candles. Not exactly born into the nerd class, but he prefers being the big-shot among the outcasts, as opposed to the bottom of the totem pole of the more popular circles.

I have an uncle in a small, racially divided Southern town. I guess he got tired of being a relative loser among the whites and he now associates primarily with blacks (who are disproportionately poor and repressed). He doesn't do it out of any notion of progressive tolerance, but rather he enjoys the satisfaction of being looked up to, even if it's simply because he's an outlet to white society.

Ilya Somin wrote May 18, 2008 at 2:41am:

Whereas smart nerds derive at least some prestige and acceptance from their intellectual achievements, the relatively dumb ones suffer all the costs of being perceived as nerds without any of the benefits.

Chuang Tze offered a somewhat different take on the costs of low prestige or uselessness, and the benefits of high prestige or usefulness:

In the State of Sung there is a land belonging to the Chings, where thrive the catalpa, the cedar, and the mulberry. Such as are of one span or so in girth are cut down for monkey cages. Those of two or three spans are cut down for the beams of fine houses. Those of seven or eight spans are cut down for the solid (unjointed) sides of rich men's coffins. Thus they do not fulfil their allotted span of years, but perish young beneath the axe. Such is the misfortune which overtakes worth. For the sacrifices to the River God, neither bulls with white foreheads, nor pigs with high snouts, nor men suffering from piles, can be used. This is known to all the soothsayers, for these are regarded as inauspicious. The wise, however, would regard them as extremely auspicious (to themselves).

There was a hunchback named Su. His jaws touched his navel. His shoulders were higher than his head. His neck bone stuck out toward the sky. His viscera were turned upside down. His buttocks were where his ribs should have been. By tailoring, or washing, he was easily able to earn his living. By sifting rice he could make enough to support a family of ten. When orders came down for a conscription, the hunchback walked about unconcerned among the crowd. And similarly, in government conscription for public works, his deformity saved him from being called. On the other hand, when it came to government donations of grain for the disabled, the hunchback received as much as three chung and of firewood, ten faggots. And if physical deformity was thus enough to preserve his body until the end of his days, how much more should moral and mental deformity avail!

Back in high school, I developed the theory that the people at the very bottom of the school social hierarchy are those who act like nerds even though they don't have much academic or intellectual ability.

Depends on what you mean by the bottom of the social scale. While nobody really likes the dumb nerds (dorks??), it doesn't seem as if there is much active dislike of them, either. So they don't really have many friends, but don't have people who pray for their demise every single day.

At least when I was in high school, nerds took the worst beating. While people who didn't excel academically were often ignored, those with the temerity to care about school were actively shunned on a regular basis. It was socially acceptable to get good grades (even excellent grades), so long as one cheated to get there or did not actually enjoy the process.

(Now, I'm not sure that I can discuss nerdishness, as I'm not a nerd, at least according to CJColucci.)

I've already hashed out this theory in an attempt to understand this one classmate of mine who had a bit of a hunchback, no social skills, and limited intelligence. These people are not "nerds." They're "dorks." Lack of intelligence immediately disqualifies them from nerddom.

theobromophile was the first to bring up the most commonly used term: dork. Geek is sometimes used, but often with a modifier signifying a particular pursuit (e.g., band geek), and by college age, the term is most often a reference to a person with a high focus on something nonathletic, nonacademic, and nonmainstream (e.g., Star Wars geek).

Nick

dearieme:

Yes, it is particularly American to presume intelligence precludes athletic skill. Our high schools, in particular, serve as prep schools for professional sports. If an American school board wants to assure than school funding levies pass, it requires a winning football team.

Thanksh, oledrunk.

What's the term for someone who thinks he's smarter than he really is?

Or asked slightly differently, what term does one use for Al Gore?

Here's how I see the objective of this bait thread designed to raise the ire of any person with autism who reads/blogs on this thread: Some involved with/through VC are panicking over the recent Los Angeles grand jury indictment of Drew for causing the 13 year-old's suicide on MySpace -- because Volokh allowed AnnTm and Whit to do essentially the same, if not worse, on THIS blog to one or more persons with autism.

And, allowing such further puts this blog in posture of the Roomates.com case for allowing disability bashing, bullying, mocking, discrimination, and other activity that is not protected by the First Amendment or the CDA.

How else are some of the posts here (e.g. first post) otherwise explainable. People with autism are hated not for who they are or what they can accomplidsh, but simply because of the irrational fears, prejudices, and stereotypes of others.

No different than McCarthyism.

Mary, frankly I'm a lot more annoyed at your attempts to explain my personality in terms of a psychological malady than I am at the well-meaning condescension of the extroverts. At least their only mistake is in believing that I need the same things that they do.

Autistic people have trouble perceiving and interacting with the outside world. Nerds most decidedly do not. Nerds only have trouble perceiving and interacting with people --and even then, only with people that they are not very familiar with. The people that you want to label as mentally disabled are as interactive with their best friends and family as anyone is.

Mary, I think you missunderstood the quote and the thread. The thread is not about smart people with poor social skills, it's about dumb people without social skills that hang around with the smart but socially inept.
I REALLY think that your mind is focused on finding information that proves your pre existing beliefs. In your post you accuse Mr. Somin of DESIGNING a thread just to raise the ire of people with autism. If thats not a irrational assumption I don't know what is. Then you accuse other commenters of doing things worse than basically causing a girl to kill herself?
Your views on the intention of other people are distorted, I seriously hope you realize this and strive to at least refrain from making such assumptions in the future.

I developed the theory that the people at the very bottom of the school social hierarchy are those who act like nerds even though they don't have much academic or intellectual ability.

Perhaps Brian Leiter could shed some light on the subject of high school social hierarchies.

"Of course the whole concept of "social skills" is nebulous, because the members of the "popular" clique might be fawning and obsequious to those with "higher status" but insulting and haughty to everyone else."

Isn't this proof of a sort of social skill instead of something that disproves it? They are somehow differentiating their social behaviour based on something aren't they? And this behaviour enables their permanence in the popular clique.

Mary, I was a high school nerd. According to you high school nerds all suffer from autism. Therefor you have said something about me --you have said that I have autism. I am offended by the implication that my personal preferences need to be explained in terms of a malady.

People with autism need medical help. Nerds just need to be convinced of the importance of social interaction.

It appears EV and Tweety Bird are looking for a test case on how far the blog host and their guest bloggers and commenters can go without incurring any type of liability. Further, it appears a person with autism is regarded as too stupid to litigate such a case under the stereotype he/she will lose.

Amazingly, when one counts the flock of commenters that all came on this thread and directed comments to me after my intial post, and count the one person with autism on the other side, it looks like a gang of bullies.

In the life of a perosn with autism, what else is new?

I am really surprised all American citizens with autism are not just rounded up and put in a zoo for the viewing pleasure and sport of the right wing conservatives on this thread who feel that any enforcement of the Americans With Disabilities Act to provide equality of opportunity to persons with autism would somehow (no real evidence of exactly how is ever forthcoming) change their lifestyles.

This is just the same old resistance that opposed Susan Anthony's idea women should be entitled to vote, and Virgil Hawkins and his lawyer, Thurgood Marshall's, idea black Americans deserve to become licensed lawyers.

Some of you people need to get over it and get a life.

To the extent that anyone cares about authorial intent, the individuals I had in mind (like Oscar Wao, the protagonist of the book which the original post reviews) are young people of average or below average intelligence who have typically "nerdy" interests (Star Wars, Magic: The Gathering, and bad SF/F books were common foci when I was in high school) and few social skills. I'm pretty sure that my JROTC classmates who obsessively played D&D and failed all the state minimum-skills exams were not autistic--they were, however, dumb nerds (or dorks, if you prefer).

Conspirators,

I hate to ask, but is it possible to rein-in MKDP? She has repeatedly threatened to sue various commenters both in this thread and other blogs, and has previously accused Eugene of "retaliating" against her and "censor[ing]" her "First Amendment Rights." [Congratulations, Eugene Caesar! You now constitute state action.] I am concerned that these repeated, rambling threats, combined with her actual litigiousness (google "Mary Katherine Day-Petrano" if you have doubts) will deter frank exchanges by the Volokh community. Cf. here (dismissing petitioner's "broad, vague, conclusory, and rambling claims and arguments" as insufficient to justify relief) and here (SCOTUS denying cert in pro se No. 05-7771, Mary K. Day-Petrano v. Florida).

Ilya Somin:

Back in high school, I developed the theory that the people at the very bottom of the school social hierarchy are those who act like nerds even though they don't have much academic or intellectual ability. They, not the intelligent nerds supposedly oppressed by jocks, are the true underclass of the high school world.

Mary Katherine Day-Petrano:

this entire thread along with the quote is a slur on persons with autism who are highly intelligent and intellectual

Mary, did you misread the original post or mis-type your own post? Or is there another reason you mis-represented the original post?

Spare me EV's posture that hosting a blog to advance a Title II public entity law school's agenda and business (UCLA) is not covered by the First Amendment.

ROFLMAO.

In case you did not notice, this site is volokh.com. It is not volokh.law.ucla.edu, in which case one might be able to make the claim with a straight face (provided, of course, that individual had received large amounts of Botox to his facial muscles, thus making the feat remotely possible); however, one can hardly presume that everything that a public employee does is a public action.

Heaven only knows how this "logic" plays out in a marital situation. "Honey, please take out the trash." "Sorry, EV, that's a violation of my Thirteenth Amendment rights; when I take out the trash, you have more time to advance the interests of UCLA, which a Title II entity, and, therefore, you are co-opting my time and labour to advance the interests of the state of California without appropriate compensation."

t, "Mary Day:


Since you also somehow feel entitled to inquire into HIPPA protected PHI" ----->

I did not inquire into HIPAA protected PHI of anyone, but DR inquired into MY PHI and I informed him only if he signed a HIPAA non-use/non-disclosure agreement wold I disclose MY PHI. I did suggest DR might wish to avail of a neuropsych and opthamologist examination predicated on the inability to communicate with me, but I did not inquire into or request the name of any doctor DR might consult, any resulting PHI, or any other information protected by HIPAA.

t, do we know each other from California? Why do you call me by my pre-marital/pre-Florida name?

This conversation reminds me of the classic SNL gameshow parody Geek, Dweeb, or Spaz?

corr:
HM, "Mary, did you misread the original post or mis-type your own post" —->

I don't "type" as you refer to keyboarding.

Perhaps this is what flicked the bic of He-Who-Does-Not-Want-to-be-Threatened-with-an-ADA-Suit who felt the need to link to several cases lacking auxiliary aids and services for effective communication in which neither he nor the courts he links to for his purpose of mocking a disabled American's court access demonstrated I was provided with the type of PAPERLESS electronic Internet format I required for meaningful court access under my medical doctor's requirements:

"IT IS OUR MEDICAL OPINION THAT DUE TO MARY PETRANO'S MULTIPLE MEDICAL CONDITIONS SHE MUST USE VOICE RECOGNITION ASSISTIVE TECHNOLOGY WITH ELECTRONIC INTERNET FILING AND SERVICE OF PROCESS OF PLEADING CASES, DOCUMENTS, NOTICES, FORMS AND CORRESPONDENCE OR OTHER COMMUNICATIONS ("PLEADINGS") IN ALL RESPECTS, FOR SENDING AND RECEIVING ALL PLEADINGS, IN ORDER TO BE FUNCTIONAL IN HER DAILY ACTIVITIES OF LIFE, HER WORK, WITH ACCESS TO THE COURTS, JUDICIAL BRANCH, AND LAWYERS."

S/ ASHRAF HANNA, M.D.

There is no such electronic internet format access as required above in ANY of the following courts in which I have attempted to litigate without being afforded meaningful access — nor have He-Who-Does-Not-Want-to-be-Threatened-with-an-ADA-Suit, t, or Dave N demonstrated such above-required meaningful access exists:

1. calbar here;
2. casupreme here;
3. fbbe here;
4. flsupreme here;
5. 9thcir here (but it is coming SOON!);
6. 11thcir here;
7. USSupreme here.

It is the same in other lower and intermediate appellate courts — ALL designed for people who have the ability to use PAPER.

One would think that BEFORE He-Who-Does-Not-Want-to-be-Threatened-with-an-ADA-Suit whined and complained, "He" would have found and linked to whatever existing court system there is in which I would have been able to achieve meaningful access to effectively communicate a lawsuit in order to bring one against him.

Absent such proof, it is pretty unfathomable that any lawsuit to gain such meaningful access under the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses would or could be "frivolous."

How many persons with autism who use PAPERLESS electronic Internet formats are there? I thought there are now about 1:55 Americans with autism.

Aren't persons with autism entitled to meaningful court access just like every other American?

theobromophile, it wasn't your comment about me that I viewed as well-meaning condescension. What I view as well-meaning condescension is the view that there is a social hierarchy in high school and that the people at the bottom of this hierarchy are sad about it. The hierarchy is a fictitious entity that only exists for those people who think it exists. Since I believe that most of those poor people at the bottom of the hierarchy have no idea that it exists, it has no effect on them and so your sympathy is misplaced.

Of course this is neglecting the role that the fictitious hierarchy plays in choosing targets for bullying, which may be a real problem in some cases. But the mere social stigma, I believe is of no concern to most of those that you are concerned about.

Rochesterian, what a fascinating comment you make. Actually, I was pondering the following language with very specific "term-of-art" terminology as used in Article III, Sec. 1 of the U.S. Constitution:

"The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour...."
here for those who would like to read it for themselves.

The Merriam-Webster online Dictionary defines "behavior" as follows:

"Main Entry: be·hav·ior
Pronunciation: \bi-ˈhā-vyər, bē-\
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of Middle English behavour, from behaven
Date: 15th century
1 a: the manner of conducting oneself b: anything that an organism does involving action and response to stimulation c: the response of an individual, group, or species to its environment
2: the way in which someone behaves; also : an instance of such behavior
3: the way in which something functions or operates
— be·hav·ior·al \-vyə-rəl\ adjective
— be·hav·ior·al·ly \-rə-lē\ adverb"
here

Psychiatry and behavioral sciences typically utilize the DSM-IV-R to analyze such definitions of "behavior" under items #1, 2, &3 above.

Thus, in its core essence, "good behavior" involves a psychiatric DSM-IV-R diagnostic evaluation or analysis.

That is why your comment is so fascinating, Rochesterian -- "good behavior" (as opposed to not "good behavior") as used in Article III, Sec. 1 of the U.S. Constitution is readily ascertainable by such objective accurate devices as neuropsychological testing.

Really, I am just wondering ... wouldn't it really simply everything of every attorney applicant and judicial candidate simply be required to submit his/her nueropsychological test scores and genome printout with the application form itself, similar to asking for a typing speed certificate?

It would certainly eliminate those passers of A-B-C-D tests who skate by while being mental psychotics or harboring bias/prejudice delusions about Americans with certain types of disabilities or worse presenting a latent danger, while likewise eliminating the questions on the applications that inquire into physical/mental disability status found to be offensive and discriminatory due to inquiring into status such as autism that may not affect the ability to meet the essential functions of the job.

In any event, what a fascinating observation, Rochesterian.
Maybe EV and Orin are engaged in such reforms on McCain's Judicial Committee on which they have recently been selected to sit.

Ilya, "I would have thought that it was obvious that the post has nothing to do with people with autism (who, as far as I know, have psychological issues that have nothing to do with nerdiness or lack thereof). But some of the comments make it necessary for me to make this obvious point" ----> That is a fair statement.

However, then, BEFORE I jumped into the conversation, a couple other posters-lawyer types, interpreted your thread to refer to the following"

" E tables contained the kids with mild cases of Down's Syndrome, what in the language of the time we called 'retards.'"

"Perhaps by "stupid nerd" you mean a person afflicted with Asperger's Syndrome, a type of autism? It's chief trait is social ineptitude. People with Asperger's Syndrome just don't get the social cues that the rest of us do.

When Asperger's Syndrome or autism is the subject of TV discussion, usually very bright, and sympathetic victims are presented. But in the real world, the defect afflicts people of normal and less than normal intelligence too."

Naturally, when I saw that autism was being equated with nerdiness and intelligence assessments by your on-topic posters, I had to jump into the conversation.

If there are any "misinterpretations," I confess, they are that of those who came before I arrived at this destination.

DR, " What I view as well-meaning condescension is the view that there is a social hierarchy in high school and that the people at the bottom of this hierarchy are sad about it" ----> Yours is a very myopic one-dimensional view, kind of like a buggy-horse galloping off due to having blinders on.

Where I went to HS, however, hierarchies were much more 3-D like IBM's Big Blue version of 3-D tic tac toe.

Take my example: I was almost at the top of my social hierarchy in equestrian circles on my way to Madison Square Garden (people with autism don't have to talk, just ride), which triggered Cheerleader-envy and all the most popular cheerleaders invited and begged me to join the Cheerleading squad because I was the cutest thing on horseback racing past the cross-country trail.

Unfortunately, my equestrian competition schedule was quite vigorous, and did not allow the time for cheerleading practice, so I had to decline the Cheerleading Squad, but we still remained friends, and quite a number of them showed up at MSG to cheer me on to my U.S. National Horse-of-the-Year Championship.

I am not sure where you see your "condescension" theory fits into real life.

MKDP -

Thank you for the information, and my apologies for the mistake. Let me try again.

Did you misread the original post or mis-word your own post? Or is there another reason you mis-represented the original post?

Hopefully, that phrasing is more appropriate.

Jamie said . .
"Why, oh why, does anyone reply to Mary Katherine Day-Petrano?"

Jamie, at this juncture I am fascinated over MKDP's take on neuro-psychological examinations predicated on the "good behavior" language in Article III Section 1.

Imagine requiring psychiatrists to determine whether our Article III judges possess the requisite mental stability to continue their respective tenures . . . . .

Thanks MKDP.

Perhaps your outside-the-envelope idea will turn into reality and alleviate us of from learning about our federal judges' stay in looney-bins only post-mortem (ala Justice Rehnquist's little bout with paranoid delusions in 1981).

MKDP, you remind me of the little boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes."

Rochesterian wrote:

Jonathan F.,
how do you conclude I am MKDP's husband?

Perhaps you are among those who should be required to undergo neuro-psychological testing under the "good behavior" language in Article III, Section 1.

Well, possibly you're MKDP, posting from your husband's account. The outlandish style and bizarre citation to off-point authority seem to fit. Either way, the email address gives it away. The funniest part is the back-and-forth you two are having, as though you were random commenters who happened to agree with each other.

"MKDF's constant incoherent rantings do nothing for my relatives or their cause ...." (emphasis added) ---->

Another apparent Freudian slip implying I am DFP, a man. It's bad enough no one likes autism; I can't even get credit for being a woman!

MKDP ipsa loquitur.

Wow.

This is lovely -- a nostalgic reference to the days when those w/Downs Syndrome were openly called "retards"; use of the term "spaz" for socially awkward people of average/below-average intelligence; application of the term "stupid nerds," apparently w/o irony, to a category of people who undoubtedly include those w/Aspergers &other ASDs ....

It's almost as if the downtrodden brainiacs ("smart nerds," I guess you'd call them?) from my high school have finally been given the opportunity to bully others! Congratulations to you all!

----

Seriously -- you guys are supposed to be the smart kids, so I'm sure you're aware of the hurt that your comments (about "spazzes," "retards," &, indirectly, those w/ASDs) cause. Why don't you care?

@ Iolo: I guess I'd thought they were over ....

Rochesterian's email is: dpetrano@yahoo.com. A quick internet search reveals that MKDP's husband's name is David Petrano. First initial fits.

Alternatively, MKDP made two accounts, one with a version of her hyphenated last name.

"Alternatively, MKDP made two accounts, one with a version of her hyphenated last name." ----->

I would imagine that He-Who-Is-Paranoid-Of-ADA-Suits-With -Access-To-Other-Posters-IP-Addresses can just take a aimple sneak and peek into the e-mail account for you and verify whether the content of the e-mail there is addressed to a MAN or a WOMAN.

THEN you will know!

But once again, I want a retraction of your defamatory statement I would post from someone else's account instead of my own when you peek and find out you made a false statement. Your statement is injurious to my bar admission.

Thank you.

Not planning to litigate, but VERY offended:
WROTE . . .
"This is lovely -- a nostalgic reference to the days when those w/Downs Syndrome were openly called "retards"; use of the term "spaz" for socially awkward people of average/below-average intelligence; application of the term "stupid nerds," apparently w/o irony, to a category of people who undoubtedly include those w/Aspergers &other ASDs .... "

There is a high order of probability the people who resort to such disparaging remarks wear robes or carry federal badges (or aspire to).

I especially enjoy the manner I get personally attacked by a chosen lot of anonymous posters (release of my e-mail) when I suggest we enact laws requiring the entire lot of Article III players undergo neuro-psychological testing.

I have no doubt this group of anonymous posters shutter at the thought prejudice, bias and downright lunacy among them would be exposed when mandatory neuro-psychological testing of Article III players becomes law.

But once again, I want a retraction of your defamatory statement I would post from someone else's account instead of my own when you peek and find out you made a false statement. Your statement is injurious to my bar admission.

I'd say your apparent lack of knowledge of defamation law is what's really injurious to your admission.

I missed this one the first time around - he posts as Rochesterian to a thread, and then responds to a negative comment by posting as David F. Petrano and attacking the commenter for "referring to me as an 'idiot.'"

Oops.

Nick

"I'd say your apparent lack of knowledge of defamation law is what's really injurious to your admission." --->

How so, counselor?

I can't see how speculating on what someone's possibly doing constitutes a "false statement," unless they knew it not to be a possibility.

"I can't see how speculating on what someone's possibly doing constitutes a "false statement," unless they knew it not to be a possibility" ---->

And THAT, counselor, was EXACTLY my point.

Cheers.

"Here's an especially cute one - a thread where they pretended to be disinterested people vilifying the opposing lawyer and judge in a case where he represented her and she lost." (emphasis added) ------>

No, this is not a true statement. I represented myself, and "lost" the case in the lower court and court of appeal when the Federal Judge pointed at me and excitedly uttered "Are you blind?" However, the case has since been petitioned for cert.

My apologies for troll-feeding. I promise it won't happen again.

He-Who - I suggest you read her comment on Balkinization - on an abortion thread, no less!

Nick

He-Who-Does-Not-Want-to-be-Threatened-with-an-ADA-Suit:
"I would ask that you disclose your state of admission and bar number so that the community can verify your status."

At this juncture, it is far more appropriate to ask that YOU disclose your state of admission and bar number so that the community can verify YOUR status.

I must be really be flicking your bic over my having communicated that I am urging Congress to enact legislation to require Article III players to undergo frequent neuro-psychological testing prior to appointment and during tenure.

Being that you are are important enough to have been permitted by Mr. Volokh to post anonymously, you must be very distraught and deeply troubled over the neuro-psychological testing issue to the extent you feel compelled to PACER me. HOW SPECIAL!!!!!

"ROFL. He conducted the cross-examination of an opposing party's witness. As a matter of law, he was representing you" ----> Hello. We were both pro se. We both cross-examined, if you can call 2 1/2 minutes a cross-examination, and my husband did not represent me as atty of record in that case. Read the docket.

"He-Who - I suggest you read her comment on Balkinization - on an abortion thread, no less!

Nick" ---->

Okay, so we now have the CONCLUSIVE PROOF why we need the neuropsychological testing Rochesterian advocates:

some members of the legal profession as exemplified on this blog thread pose such a heightened danger of harm to the the safety and well-being of disabled Americans and persons with autism in particular, that their delusional aversion to the autism has them actually cyberstalking from blog-to-blog and implying persons with autism should be aborted or killed.

Now we not only have eugenics but genetic discrimination. Is THIS the measure of the integrity we have in the State Bars that license and in our courts?

Wow.

[I]t is far more appropriate to ask that YOU disclose your state of admission and bar number so that the community can verify YOUR status.

I have never held myself out to be a lawyer; indeed, I represent nothing beyond being an anonymous internet commenter. "Holding oneself out to be an attorney when not so licensed itself constitutes the unauthorized practice of law," The Florida Bar v. Matus, 528 So.2d 895, 896 (Fla. 1988), and can be inferred from a writing implying admission to any bar, see The Florida Bar v. Moran, 273 So.2d 390, 390 (Fla. 1973). Doing so is probably "injurious to [future or current] bar admission."

TO "He-Who-Does-Not-Want-to-be-Threatened-with-an-ADA-Suit":

You're losing your grip, son.

I have NEVER stated or implied in any writing that I am a member of any Bar. I have repeatedly stated over and over and over to everyone who makes any wrong assumption or speculates about me, that I AM NOT A MEMBER OF ANY BAR. I have been subjected to repeated Bar-entrapment set-ups by persons who tell me they have been put up to doing so because the State of Florida and California want to prevent my exercise of ADA civil rights to defeat my ADA lawsuits, numerous crimes and torts have been committed against me to do the same, but I have repeatedly and steadfastly stated that I am not a member of any Bar, that I am not holding myself out to be a member of any Bar, and that I am not giving legal advice to any person.

Period.

Since you are now citing cases and claiming they are applicable to the actual facts about me, please provide me your stste of licensure and Bar #.

corr: " stste " = state
" they " = the
" sy " = my

For starters, this ball ain't in your court, brother.

I'm a woman. :)

What posts about you? I merely pointed out that you are coming to the defence of your wife, without having actually stated that you are her husband - somewhat dubious at best. I'm not sure how you get from there to your enumerated list, but it certainly makes you a candidate for medication.

corr: "exaxamination" = examination

Rochesterian, it is unfathomable that the posters who are such ardent proponents of those who they

A.) suspect of having a physical or mental disability;
B.) are suspected of being related to someone who they suspect of having a physical or mental disability; or
C.) have certain high functioning disabilities not fitting the "social norm" to which the posters have a deep aversion,

are so freaking SCARED of the idea of having to take the same neuropsychological testing battery they propose for those against whom they are unable to win their arguments.

I suspect there is good reason for this, and it is as follows:

"[T]he Judicial Conference, which sets policy relating to the administration of the federal courts, is considering a package of revisions to the Code of Conduct for United States Judges. The conference’s Committee on Codes of Conduct plans to finalize its recommendations for consideration by the full conference when it meets in September."

cite

With the recommendations yet to be finalized, perhaps both the Committee and full Conference might be persuaded to require the neuropsychological testing you, Rochesterian, advocate.

And, such testing is of no more IMPORTANCE than to be required of each and every law clerk to every Judge.

If such testing WERE required we would not have suffered the debacle of "AnnTM," who herself admitted not only participating with "Towanda" in the purloining of a copyrighted material authored by myself for her and her co-participants to use as means to increase blog readership and to raise a legal defense fund if they should be caught doing the following:

"AnnTM
Member
Posts: 119
(5/18/04 9:15 am)
Hmm...

BITING MY TONGUE (because I work for the appellate court that could hear her case, and I have access to her pleadings below).
* * *
Spot
Posts: 71
(5/18/04 9:24 am)
OH dear Ann ...

You must have some WICKED bite marks in your tongue right now!
I dont know how you can STAND it!
AnnTM
Member
Posts: 120
(5/18/04 9:33 am)
Spot, you have no idea!

(This message was left blank)
Edited by: AnnTM at: 5/31/04 10:33 pm
* * *
Flashy Gray
Member
Posts: 1283
(5/18/04 10:45 am)
Re: Traffic Ticket

Certifiable Freak Show!

I am also lamenting the fact that I missed all this while doing horse-related activities last night!!!

I heart all the TTR legal eagles who are keeping us updated on this, it's hilarious!!! Although AnnTM, you need to keep off of here!

AnnTM
Member
Posts: 124
(5/18/04 10:53 am)
Re: Traffic Ticket

(This message was left blank)
Edited by: AnnTM at: 5/31/04 10:34 pm"
cite

"Towanda
Member
Posts: 1101
(5/18/04 11:09 am)
Re: DK's link

Good catch, Kahuna.

We have PACER for free.
I wonder if I can get access even though we are 6th Circuit? Ann, don't you work for the 11th Circuit Ct of Appeals??

I have a crazy day, but hopefully will have some time to do some CP legal research.

AnnTM
Member
Posts: 126
(5/18/04 11:13 am)
Re: DK's link

I think PACER is universal. The individual courts have CHASER websites (and here at the court of appeals, we can look at the dockets of all the courts below us using CHASER), but I think PACER lets you look anywhere.
Edited by: AnnTM at: 5/31/04 10:34 pm

galloper
Posts: 199
(5/18/04 11:28 am)
Re: DK's link

Doo-be-doo-be-doo....

I have Paaacer....


(I gotta say, that is an impressive list of defendants!)
* * *
AnnTM
Member
Posts: 128
(5/18/04 11:39 am)
Re: DK's link

GAAAHHH! Galloper, email me! I want to talk about this stuff with somebody and not feel guilty.
Edited by: AnnTM at: 5/18/04 12:12 pm

galloper
Posts: 200
(5/18/04 11:50 am)
Email

Done. You can delete your address now if you want.
* * *
Flashy Gray
Member
Posts: 1290
(5/18/04 1:00 pm)
Re: CP

Petit - I am with you re: Cellos Pride Onslaught Legal Defense Fund bake sale!

All you legal types need to start putting out the DIRT, the SKINNY, the POOP as it were, instead of typing/emailing amongst yourselves with your high-falutin' access to expensive subscriber-only legal databases.
* * *
fouronthefloor
Member
Posts: 1387
(5/18/04 1:10 pm)
Re: CP

Yea, for real---make up some dumb alter and post some fun stuff for us!!
Towanda
Member
Posts: 1104
(5/18/04 1:12 pm)
Re: CP

I have this insane obsession with meeting her in person. Like, anyone up for a trip to FL??
* * *
galloper
Posts: 201
(5/18/04 1:19 pm)
Trip to FL

I yahoo mapped her address off of the pleadings (I know, I'm an evil child). It really does appear to be a boat slip!
* * *
Everythingbutwings
Member
Posts: 2390
(5/18/04 1:23 pm)
Re: CP

Towanda, get past that obsession RIGHT NOW! She's loony.
* * *
Towanda
Member
Posts: 1105
(5/18/04 1:32 pm)
CE,

I know. That's why I'm so fascinated. P and K know her, too and remmeber that horse (but, once again, I had to make up some crazy story about how I know her! You know, the whole lawyer thing )

Draw Rein
Member
Posts: 30
(5/18/04 1:42 pm)
AnnTM and Galloper

Couldn't you guys let your fingers do a little oops "slipping"??
cite

"AnnTM
Member
Posts: 131
(5/18/04 2:14 pm)
Re: File Access

Galloper, I certainly wouldn't feel as weird about it if I didn't work for the court. They put the fear of God in us about being impartial, always being impartial, avoiding every possiblity of even a slightest iota of appearance of impropriety.
Edited by: AnnTM at: 5/31/04 10:35 pm

Spot
Posts: 72
(5/18/04 2:44 pm)
Ann

I would think YOU are nuts to share any details over a public BB.
It might be CP free today, but what about tomorrow, or next day - who knows ....
* * *
squishy
Member
Posts: 1628
(5/18/04 2:54 pm)
Re: File Access

Wow, Ann, I didn't know the court restricted its employees so much in their private affairs. I guess it makes sense, but still . . . . Guess you won't be hopping on any Greenpeace boats anytime soon!

And I do think CP reads over here. I seem to recall her posting here before.

Towanda
Member
Posts: 1106
(5/18/04 2:56 pm)
Yeah

If you don't know what you are talking about, then don't comment. ...

Towanda
Member
Posts: 1107
(5/18/04 2:57 pm)
No,

I don't think she posts over here. A) I would remember (since I am borderline obsessed with her ) and B) I would have been slapped so silly with a Title III (or whatever ) lawsuit after telling of my e-mail exploits that it's not even funny.
* * *
Towanda
Member
Posts: 1111
(5/18/04 3:32 pm)
Re: No,

Oh, Squish, no heart attacks here. Like I said, I'm just like psycho-obsessed with CP and get a little overzealous when the topic turns to her.
Edited by: Towanda at: 5/18/04 3:56 pm"
cite

"AnnTM
Member
Posts: 194
(5/31/04 10:42 pm)
Re: OK, I sent the following Email to Dateline....

Just in case anyone's wondering, I deleted some of the references to where I work, etc., from this email. Mention of CP's return has me paranoid, particularly since she noted the bashing on other BB's."
cite

"AnnTM
Member
Posts: 130
(5/18/04 1:55 pm)
Re: lol

...I just feel weird using passwords for PACER and CHASER that are given to me as a court employee for research purposes, and then looking up a case just because I've heard about the plaintiff and think she's a nutjob....

...But they never said anything about having an unhealthy obsession with a litigant I encounter on an internet BB."
cite

Cellos Pride is the name of my equine disability service horse who was very recently maliciously attacked to deliberately cause him to suffer a founder "sinker," a catastrophic permanent injury intended to permanently deprive me of ever being able to ride him again as the medicine prescribed for me by my medical doctors, or worse, to kill him.

Incredibly, "AnnTM," and her co-participants, while admitting to all sorts of mental illnesses and instabilities, further admitted wanting to know where my equije disability service horse was located, prerequisite knowledge for "opportunity" for the perpetrators to carry out the maclcious equine disability service horse attack on the best friend of a person with autism:

"AnnTM
Member
Posts: 111
(5/13/04 10:49 am)
Re: RE: her

I think she bitches about the FL bar, too, but not quite as much. Maybe she's holding off applying there until she gets the suit against the CA bar resolved.

I wonder where she keeps her horse in FL, if she has to live on a leaky sailboat? Being from FL, I wonder if anyone I know down there knows her."
cite

Rochesterian -- what MORE proof could anyone need that neuropsychological testing is a NECESSITY for those entrusted to law clerk for our Federal Judges?

Without it, you truly have the lunatics running the asylum.

NickM SAID
"does anyone want to guess the date when the Supreme Court will deny her petition for rehearing after denial of petition for certiorari?
Nick"

So NickM,
You are taking bets on MKDP's certiorari?
You appear as in-need of neuro-psychological testing as AnnTM (the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals clerk) in MKDP's post above.

Perhaps your little psycho-guessing game has an "inside take" on who does/does not get cert?