Does Religious Belief Increase Happiness?

Todd's excellent recent post on academics and happiness also raises the much broader question of whether religious belief causes happiness. Some studies, including Arthur Brooks' recent important work, do claim to show a correlation between the two. However, the argument that this proves that being religious makes you happier has two serious flaws.

I. Correlation vs. Causation.

First, even if we prove that there is a correlation between religious belief and happiness, that is not the same thing as proving causation. It could be that people who are happy for reasons unrelated to religion are more likely to be religious. There are a number of plausible scenarios under which this theory would be true. For example, it may be that a tendency towards social conformity makes people happier because they clash less with social norms and the people around them. And conformists are more likely to be religious than nonconformists (at least in an overwhelmingly religious society such as the US). An interesting test of this hypothesis would be to see whether religious believers are (controlling for other variables) happier than atheists in majority-atheist societies such as Denmark, Japan, and the Czech Republic.

II. Measuring Religious Belief vs. Measuring Attendance at Religious Services.

Second, and much more important, the studies do not in fact find even a correlation between happiness and religious belief. What they show is a correlation between happiness and attendance at religious services. For example, Brooks, in the article linked above, shows that "religious" people are much more likely to report being "very happy" in surveys than "secular" people. However, he defines "religious" people as those who say they "attend houses of worship at least once per week" and "secular" as those who say they "never" attend houses of worship.

This is a crucial distinction. It is highly likely that all Brooks' work and other similar studies have shown is that religious believers who go to services regularly are happier than those believers who never do so. Brooks' "secular" category includes some 20 percent of the American population. Yet other survey data shows that atheists and agnostics make up only about 3 to 9 percent of the population. Even if all the atheists and agnostics in Brooks' survey were counted as "secular," it would still be the case that the vast majority of his "secular" respondents (at least 55%), are in fact religious believers who don't go to services. Moreover, many atheists and agnostics do attend religious services at least occasionally (e.g. - for family or social reasons), and so would not be included in Brooks' "secular" category. Some would even be categorized as "religious." I have an atheist friend who regularly attends religious services with her believer husband. In Brooks' study, she would be considered "religious," even though she denies the existence of God and doesn't believe that the precepts of her husband's religion (or any religion) are actually true.

Why would believers who attend services be happier than those who never do? There are many possible reasons, and some of the most plausible ones do not apply with equal force to nonattendance by atheists and agnostics. For example, attendance at religious services is a social activity. We know from a great deal of social science evidence that people who build up "social capital" by participating in social and community activities tend to be happier than those who do. Understandably, religious people with high social capital will tend to participate in religiously-oriented groups. Equally understandably, atheists and agnostics will tend to focus on secular ones. For a religious believer, never attending services is a strong indication of low participation in social activities more generally. For an atheist or agnostic, it might just be an indication that he participates in secular activities instead.

Similarly, many religious people believe that they have a duty to attend services. Those who believe they have such a duty but never live up to it may well be down on themselves for what they perceive to be their own immoral conduct. Almost by definition, atheists and agnostics do not believe they have any moral duty to attend religious services. So they are extremely unlikely to engage in self-recrimination for failing to do so.

III. Limitations of the Argument.

It's important to be clear about the limitations of my argument. I'm not saying that the evidence shows that atheists are happier than religious believers. I'm not even saying Brooks' hypothesis that religious belief makes one happier is provably false. All I'm suggesting is that the evidence he presents doesn't substantiate it.

I'm also not suggesting that the lack of a connection between religious belief and happiness proves that religion is false. The validity of belief in God is independent of whether nor not such belief makes people happy. The same is true for the validity of atheism. I am an atheist because I think logic and evidence support the conclusion that God doesn't exist, not because I think that being an atheist will make me happy.

In fact, it's perfectly possible for belief in imaginary beings to increase happiness. For example, many children are probably happier because of their belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. When they learn the truth, they tend to be disappointed, and their level of happiness declines (at least for a time). By contrast, belief in real beings is sometimes more unpleasant than blissful ignorance of their existence. For example, many Americans might be happier if they didn't know about Osama Bin Laden and therefore didn't have to worry about the threat he poses. The truth may set you free. But it won't always make you happy.

UPDATE: In his article linked above, Brooks also notes that "people who pray every day are a third likelier to be very happy than those who never pray, whether or not they attend services." To my mind, this means of measuring religiosity is not sufficiently distinct from attending services. Like attendance at services, regular prayer is also often a social activity (e.g. - many people do it with their families and friends), and is thus likely to be correlated with "social capital." Similarly, many of those who say they "never" pray are likely to be religious believers rather than atheists or agnostics. They may simply belong to religions that don't require prayer; or they doubt its effectiveness despite belonging to denominations that hold otherwise. Thus, Brooks' use of the prayer variable likely proves only that religious people who pray regularly tend to be happie than those religious people who don't. Brooks himself offers a plausible explanation for this result when he notes (in a different context) that "what makes some religious people unhappy is an image of God as severe, unloving or distant . . . regular churchgoers who feel 'very close to God' are 27% more likely to be very happy than churchgoers who do not feel very close to God." If you are religious and believe that God is likely to answer your prayers, that may well make you happier than you would be if you believed in God but thought that he is - in Brooks' words - "severe, unloving, or distant." But that fact says little about the effects on happiness of not believing in God at all.

therut:
Well to make it short and sweet, If I did not believe in God then my whole "being" is nothing than a big joke on me. I would just check out of the whole nothingness. But see I do believe so life is meaningful. Otherwise it would just be a dog eat dog let me prove how right I am and then nothing. Maybe that is enought for some. Not me. If there is no God then I just as soon not be here at all.
5.23.2008 6:33pm
Ilya Somin:
Well to make it short and sweet, If I did not believe in God then my whole "being" is nothing than a big joke on me. I would just check out of the whole nothingness. But see I do believe so life is meaningful. Otherwise it would just be a dog eat dog let me prove how right I am and then nothing. Maybe that is enought for some. Not me. If there is no God then I just as soon not be here at all.

The short and sweet answer to this is that most atheists and agnostics do not agree with your bleak assessment of life in a world without God. Therefore, their lack of belief in him doesn't make them unhappy in the way that you think you would be if you didn't believe.
5.23.2008 6:39pm
Randy R. (mail):
Not sure if religious belief correlates with happiness. I know many people who are unhappy for various reasons and turn to the church for consolation. Their religious beliefs didn't actually make them happy, but did offer something that made the burden lighter.

Tom DeLay is deeply religious (Baptist), but he is such an angry SOB, I'm not sure his religion helps or hurts the guy.
5.23.2008 6:45pm
seadrive:
Careful there, Randy R. That kind of talk got Obama in a heap of trouble.
5.23.2008 6:48pm
Randy R. (mail):
Regarding prayer, I view prayer as a form of meditation. If you count the number of people who meditate, something that cuts across many societies and religions, I would gander that in general, they are more happy. (That's just my observation, and not a scientific one.)

One goal of meditation is to free oneself of the physical world and become at peace with it, so it would make sense that those who practice it more often would be happier than those who don't.
5.23.2008 6:48pm
another anonVCfan:
The short and sweet answer to this is that most atheists and agnostics do not agree with your bleak assessment of life in a world without God. Therefore, their lack of belief in him doesn't make them unhappy in the way that you think you would be if you didn't believe.

And even if it did, most atheists I know are big on logic. That belief in God might make us feel better is surely a pragmatic reason to accept the existence of God as true, but it's not a logical reason for doing so.
5.23.2008 6:57pm
Suzy (mail):
I must insist that it matters how we define happiness, especially with respect to this question of whether a set of beliefs can make a person happier. If false beliefs can make people report that they feel happier, should we trust that judgment and agree that they are indeed happy? Blissfully happy in the conviction that I am the Queen of England, shall we agree that my own feelings are all that matters? If happiness is to be just a matter of how I feel at any given moment, I suppose that people who get a weekly massage or have a daily glass of wine report happiness even more often than those who pray regularly!

Speaking of praying regularly, that tells us nothing about whether the beliefs in question are responsible for the happiness that may result. As someone noted above, people who meditate regularly might report the same benefits even if they were thoroughgoing atheists.
5.23.2008 7:20pm
George Weiss (mail) (www):
The autor of the WSJ article did not argue for causation

however, going with your theme:

other non causal explanations for the possible correlation:

a) (reverse causation) happiness causes religious belief-happy people may be more comfortable with the logic of an all powerful loving god than those who, from their state of unhappiness, struggle to understand how their could be a loving all powerful god. (most religious belief forms today posit such a god).

b) (more third variables)-perhaps membership in the religious community (as opposed to actual belief) is what causes both happiness (a close nit caring community that religious communities sometimes are can cause happiness) and belief-as the beliefs of that community intellectually or influence a person to accept that belief.

its distinct from conformity as the third variable-becuase a person could be a non conformist who was simply won over intellectually by the religious community-or a non conformist who was threatened by the religious community to conform.
5.23.2008 7:22pm
Brett Bellmore:
Alas, I'm not very good at believing things I have no reason, (As distinct from motive) to believe. Perhaps I'd be a happier person if I did have such a capacity. That would be a different person, though, not me.
5.23.2008 7:23pm
John Thompson (mail):
I believe that Voltaire once wrote a very short story regarding a brahmin with a reputation for wisdom who was upbraided by a friend because the brahmin was generally unhappy and frustrated by the lack of an answer to his search for meaning in life (or some such). The friend pointed to an old peasant woman across the street and stated that the old woman believed in all the local superstitions and all the dozens of gods and made all the right sacrifices on all the right days and never gave a thought about whether her religion was true or about any of the great philosophical questions. Yet she was very happy and content. "Are you not ashamed of yourself for your attitude--look at the old woman across the road--how happy SHE is." "Yes, but that is a kind of happiness that I do not desire" was the response. In other words therut, ignorance may well be bliss, and believing in Santa Clause perhaps could provide you with a sense of happiness. But some among us would rather seek the truth rather than settle for the local fairy tale.
5.23.2008 7:25pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
I despise religion, but I'm the first to concede that it makes people happy. How could it not? Being able to convince yourself that you have a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, who loves you, and listens to you, and cares about you, and even sent his own son to die for your sins, will cause you to be happier than someone without such a belief. Religion is designed to make people happy, hence the phrase "opiate of the masses." That's why organized religions have nearly universally been against chemical intoxication. They see it as direct competition, and they're wise to do so. The opiate of the masses it may be, but that is no substitute for the real thing.

The real question is, would you rather be right or happy?

I'd rather be right. However in my experience, most people would rather be happy. That's why atheism will never be popular, no matter how much evidence there is against particular religions being "True."
5.23.2008 7:29pm
Smokey:
This post is only going to make liberals more unhappy than they already are, because...
If we only wanted to be happy it would be easy, but we want to be happier than other people, which is almost always difficult, since we think them happier than they are.

~ Charles de Montesquieu
5.23.2008 7:40pm
Javert:
It's an amazing sign of today's intellectual emptiness that in all of these surveys and studies, there is no definition of "happiness." It reminds me of the talks I've attended on "artificial intelligence," where the speakers never define "intelligence." Without a proper definition, how on earth do you know what you're talking about?


"religious" people are much more likely to report being "very happy" in surveys than "secular" people.

And I'm sure that the same people are "much more likely to report being" moral. But without a proper understanding of what it means to be "moral," the survey is empty.
5.23.2008 7:45pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
Javert: happiness is subjective. It may be hard to define but you know it when you feel it. A depressed person is not going to say they are happy. I disagree that religious people are more likely to consider themselves moral than nonreligious people. I'm not religious and not only am I moral, but I'm far more moral than 99% of religious people. Religious people likely consider other religious people (of the same religion, of course) more moral than non-religious people. But that's not the question here.

I know that I'd be happier if I had a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, who loved me and care for me. I'd be absoltely thrilled.
5.23.2008 7:53pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
".... who loved me and cared for me. I'd be absolutely thrilled."
5.23.2008 7:54pm
Suzy (mail):
Javert, I agree. BruceM, I take Javert's point to be that self-reporting is not useful for judging whether someone is happy even if happiness is experienced subjectively. I experience drunkenness subjectively too, but that doesn't mean that I'm the best judge of my blood alcohol content. If we asked only moderately drunk people whether they were happy, I suppose we'd also get higher numbers than if we asked only the sober.
5.23.2008 8:12pm
Blar (mail) (www):
My suspicion is that a big part of the link is between disillusionment and unhappiness. In other words, the unhappiness is related to becoming nonreligious, not (or not only) to being nonreligious. A religious person who ceases to believe may have a rough time of it (especially if he had previously seen things like meaning and morality as being closely related to religion - just imagine what would happen if therut lost faith), but someone who grew up nonreligious would not have a problem. The set of nonreligious Americans probably includes a fairly large number of former believers who have not yet recovered from the shock to their worldview.

There is another third variable explanation here as well: a very bad life event can both make a person unhappy and cause them to question their faith. Is there any data out there on how common it is for disbelief to be precipitated by some sort of life crisis or tragedy?
5.23.2008 8:13pm
notaclue (mail):
Ilya, you're right about religious services providing social capital. (I say this as a Christian who believes the whole package. As someone said, I even believe the Bible's cover is genuine leather.) We even have a theological way to describe this togetherness: We consider ourselves part of the body of Christ, AKA the church.

Christianity originated in cultures much less individualistic than ours, where people probably didn't take their emotional temperature very often to see if they were happy. I would love to see some good cross-cultural studies on the correlation between religion and happiness. It's only a guess, but I would expect a higher degree of contentment among Christians living in cultures (religious/ethnic/national ones) that don't place a premium on individual happiness.

Those who look for happiness often miss it while those who look for something beyond themselves often find happiness along the way
5.23.2008 8:15pm
frankcross (mail):
I think Will Wilkinson has the best take. He noted that the association did not apply over time in Europe. He suggests that the happiness is a conformity issue, with religiosity being the norm in many areas of America.

And George Weis, there's a third possible measurement issue. It may be that the religious feel an expectation to be happy and therefore report more happiness, regardless of the true feelings. I personally am very dubious about the reliability of these self-reported happiness scores.
5.23.2008 8:53pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
Suzy, self-reporting is all we have. And it's perfectly valid - people are the best judge of their own happiness. And insofar as people can lie about it (say they're happy when they're sad, or vice-versa), that's no different than any other poll. People can say they support Obama when they really support McCain. In fact there's more of an incentive to lie on certain political polls (i.e. to keep the democratic primary going and going and going) than in a poll about happiness. In an anonymous poll about happiness, why lie about it? But I'll concede that people do. No different than any other study based on questioning people.

Sure, asking moderately drunk people if they are happy should give higher results than sober people. That shows that the results are at least somewhat connected to reality. If the study were based on whether person A thinks person B is happy, then I'd agree that it's absolutely meaningless.

notaclue: I'm an atheist, and while I'm fairly content, I'm sure you're happier than I am. You see yourself as part of a group, which you call the "Body of Christ" (kinda creepy), and you "Know" (with the capital K) that you're going to a place called heaven while other people not part of the club (like myself) will burn in hell. You believe you have a personal relationship with a being that created the universe, and everything in it. How could anyone who "Knew" that to be real not be happy about it? The catch is, you're factually wrong. So is everyone else who subscribes to a different religion (I don't mean to only pick on Christians, as Islam, Judaism, Scientology, and Mormonism are equally wrong). But we only live once, and deciding to be happy at the expense of being factually correct is perfectly rational. In fact, given the tangible benefits of being wrong, it's hard to justify being right. The only thing being right has to offer is, for some, a subjective sense of intellectual superiority. That's not a sufficient benefit, for me. So why do I not be wrong and significantly happier? I simply can't do it. Convincing myself that I Know 1 plus 1 doesn't equal 2 is not something I'm capable of doing. It's what religious people refer to as "faith" ... though faith is really nothing more than the act of believing/Knowing something despite substantial evidence to the contrary. If I could have a head injury only severe enough to allow me to have faith, with no adverse health consequences, I'd have to think long and hard about whether I'd do it. It would be an extremely tough decision.
5.23.2008 9:53pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
The real question is, would you rather be right or happy?

I think most people would rather be happy and I don't blame them. I'd rather not debunk someone's belief in religion for that exact reason (at times I think it can be as cruel as debunking belief in Santa Claus) but I'll be damned if I let someone's comprehensive religious system rule my life or try to take over and rule public policy.
5.23.2008 10:03pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I know that I'd be happier if I had a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, who loved me and care for me. I'd be absoltely thrilled.

Sometimes it can be comforting just to pretend that such exists. You can fool yourself into believing that it's really going on. But if happiness and comfort are the "ends" of "good religion" then I feel as though I have a duty to counter those aspects of traditional religion that are as disturbing or gloomy (indeed, even gloomier) than atheism.

For instance, I think the notion that human beings because of their original sin deserve eternal damnation and that this fate awaits most of humanity, to be far worse, far sadder and agonizing, than the notion that NOTHING exists beyond the grave that death is ultimate extinction.
5.23.2008 10:08pm
wb (mail):
Ilya,

Why does Brooks' conclusion seem so threatening to you? Moreover applying Occam's razor he presents the more probable conclusion.
5.23.2008 10:26pm
lawschoolinmate (www):
In response to the original post, I suppose the article would be more accurate if titled "Religious Attendance Causes Happiness," yet generally (your atheist friend notwithstanding) religious attendance is predicated on religious belief, so I think it's a natural leap to make. Not to mention that it provides some measure of objective analysis - most people can accurately say how often they attend service, but if you ask "are you religious," the multifaceted responses are going to be far more difficult to mold into any sort of useful analysis.

There have also been several studies that show that religious belief lengthens life. From a Christian perspective, we would say that this is because we're living within God's will. But even from a "secular" perspective, you're right, maybe it's just from a sense of security, less stress, greater sense of duty to maintain your body (God's creation, etc).

I just don't understand why some people (see several of the above posts) feel so threatened by this. I don't know everything about vitamins, but I take them because I believe they will enhance my health. Similarly, if simple attendance at church once a week actually provides all these benefits without believing in God, then it makes sense to go to church. I don't think it's a case of being right versus being happy. The studies say it makes your life better. Why is that so threatening?
5.23.2008 10:46pm
frankcross (mail):
BruceM, I don't think the reliability problem is in people lying. I think it is in scaling. There is no real measure of happiness, like dollars currency. An event may both (a) increase happiness and (b) increase expectations, in which case it would possibly appear as no increase in happiness, when it in fact was an increase in happiness. And, because there's no scaling and only individual benchmarking, people use different standards for what it is to be "happy." Person A might be happier than Person B in any objective sense but Person B might say he was happier, because he has different expectations and is using a different benchmark.
5.23.2008 10:50pm
corneille1640 (mail):
Dear BruceM:

A few things about your response to "notaclue" that puzzle me:

First, you state that "notaclue" "knows" (or believes he knows) he is going to heaven and you as an atheist are going to hell. I certainly cannot speak for "notaclue," but I consider myself religious (although I don't go to church) and I really have no idea if you're going to hell or if I'm going to heaven.

Second, you imply that religion is "factually wrong," if I understood you correctly. It seems to me that religion is more unprovable than "factually wrong."

Third, you state that "faith is really nothing more than the act of believing/Knowing something despite substantial evidence to the contrary." Do you mean "faith" as a mode of belief or do you mean, by "faith," a shorthand word for religion? If you mean a shorthand for religion, isn't your reasoning a bit circular, in that you are merely saying that religion is wrong because it flies in the face of "substantial evidence to the contrary"? (I.e., that religion is wrong because it is wrong.)

If you mean a "mode of belief," as in, "some people believe things by faith while others belief things only supported by fact," I venture to speculate that most people, be they atheists or religious, accept certain things on "faith" without waiting for proof. I, for example, believe that murder is wrong, and I accept, on faith, that it is wrong. (It then, of course, becomes and issue as to how I define "murder." My point is there are some assumptions we make without proof.)
5.23.2008 10:57pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I certainly cannot speak for "notaclue," but I consider myself religious (although I don't go to church) and I really have no idea if you're going to hell or if I'm going to heaven.

It's my contention that this is the kind of religion that is either harmless or actually good for society. However, to a traditional orthodox Christians, esp. of the evangelical Protestant perspective Bruce M. as an atheists most certainly IS going to Hell.

Yet, as with the atheists, I'm not going to "write off" orthodox Christians, because these perspectives deserve to have their day in court as they "search for the truth." I will just say that if either of the two is true, then that's bad news, bad news indeed. I'd rather HOPE that the feel good religion of a benevolent God who sends everyone to Heaven (but who might punish folks temporarily in accordance to the severity of their sin) is true.

But in all honestly, who the heck knows?
5.23.2008 11:09pm
ithaqua (mail):
"The short and sweet answer to this is that most atheists and agnostics do not agree with your bleak assessment of life in a world without God. Therefore, their lack of belief in him doesn't make them unhappy in the way that you think you would be if you didn't believe."

Then most atheists haven't really thought about the consequences of their worldview. Or they're lying; since atheism, by definition, lacks a moral compass, a lie is morally identical to the truth, and no atheist wants to admit that his philosophy makes him miserable.

Actually, I imagine that this explains why so very many atheists are socially destructive, antireligious and especially antiChristian; their existential angst leads them to hate and envy religious people for having the answers that they refuse to accept.

"For instance, I think the notion that human beings because of their original sin deserve eternal damnation and that this fate awaits most of humanity, to be far worse, far sadder and agonizing, than the notion that NOTHING exists beyond the grave that death is ultimate extinction."

People who want to sin without consequence often think that. Fear of Hell comes from the desire to reject Christ and live an unGodly life. Just like in real life, if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.

"In fact, given the tangible benefits of being wrong, it's hard to justify being right. The only thing being right has to offer is, for some, a subjective sense of intellectual superiority."

Which is why atheists act so arrogant and superior - and why intellectualism itself is a trap. We mere mortals understand the benefits of being 'fools for God'.

And, TBH, I think this entire article is a non-issue. Of course people who love God are happier than those who don't. We know that God loves us back :)
5.23.2008 11:26pm
Dave Hardy (mail) (www):
"That's why organized religions have nearly universally been against chemical intoxication."

Not Roman Catholicism, where it is mandatory, and the reflection is that Christ would not have performed his first miracle so that everybody could get plastered at a wedding party if he had anything against getting looped.

I suspect cause here would be impossible to sort out.

1. Since in the end we are all dead, as is everyone we have loved, it would be expected that people who believe in eternity, reunion with them, etc. would be happier than reflecting that they are dead and gone, but a soon forgotten marker in a cemetery, and in fifty years you will be the same. But

2. It is probably easier to be religious if you are happy. Being crushed, or feeling crushed, is harder to reconcile with a loving and all-good deity than being happy. Also

3. To the extent one feels crushed, many folks take consolation from the thought that the loving, all-good deity must have some inexplicable purpose in having let them be stomped into the ground. Personally, I'd treat my friends a little better, but it is still possible to seek some consolation there.
5.23.2008 11:28pm
ForgotAcct:
Then most atheists haven't really thought about the consequences of their worldview. Or they're lying; since atheism, by definition, lacks a moral compass, a lie is morally identical to the truth, and no atheist wants to admit that his philosophy makes him miserable.


I really want to know how this statement can possibly be backed up?

Are you really claiming that unless your actions are motivated by fear of or love of a god that you can't be moral? Are you claiming that no morality can be reached through reason or thought? That no morality can be TAUGHT without backing it up with a god somewhere?

Thomas Jefferson's red letter version of the Bible is a good example--picks out the morality without the magic. He knew what was important!
5.23.2008 11:45pm
Renato Drumond (mail):
Hapiness has a lot to do with expectations. Frustation can diminishes hapiness even if the result of a certain action is positive to the individual.

Maybe a non-believer on a very religious society still has certain expectations about life that could be only achieved with religious practice.
5.23.2008 11:53pm
Doc Rampage (mail) (www):
Ilya, speaking as a believer (but not a regular attender), I think your analysis is very good. People are too quick to read their own stories into correlations like this, and frequent reminders of the pitfalls are very useful.

However, I think you make one mistake: your assumption that because the majority are religious that therefore religious behavior is the norm. There is no single religion that is the norm, and where ever you work or engage in other non-religious social activity, your religion is likely to be a minority view. Second, a great deal of culture is controlled by television and movies which are almost entirely either neutral on the subject or distinctly opposed to religion. So anyone who is religious is inclined to see himself as a minority --one whose views are much more frequently mocked and despised in the major cultural events than supported.

And I think that you are forgetting (or not aware of) the doctrinal issues around Christianity that might tend to make people happy (I can't speak to other religions on this score so I'll restrict myself to Christianity). Regular church goers are constantly encouraged to be faithful to their spouse, gentle to their children, helpful to friends, loyal to employers, kind to strangers, generous, loving, honest, and trustworthy. These things are often hard, but doing them, in the long run, makes you happy. Of course atheists can determine to be like this as well, but they will not get the regular encouragement that attenders get at Christian churches, which makes it harder.

Also, when you try to live like this, you will find yourself failing frequently, and these failures will make you feel guilty if you have a well-honed conscience. What Christianity offers in this regard is forgiveness. You recognize your guilt, determine to do better in the future, ask God to forgive you, and then your failures are as if they never happened. You become, for a few shining moments until your next failure, entirely without guilt. If Christians are more happy, I think it would be due to that more than anything.
5.24.2008 12:13am
ithaqua (mail):
"Not Roman Catholicism, where it is mandatory, and the reflection is that Christ would not have performed his first miracle so that everybody could get plastered at a wedding party if he had anything against getting looped. "

It is literally impossible to become intoxicated from Communion. Transubstantiation and all.

"Are you really claiming that unless your actions are motivated by fear of or love of a god that you can't be moral? Are you claiming that no morality can be reached through reason or thought? That no morality can be TAUGHT without backing it up with a god somewhere? "

Yes. If morality is a human creation, than morality is subjective: depending on the premises you begin with, any belief system or philosophy can claim, with equal validity, to be 'moral'. And if anything can be moral, morality as a concept ceases to exist. The only way for an objective moral code to exist is if it is imposed on humanity from outside, ie, from God.

Most atheists, even though they reject God, continue to follow (roughly) the God-given moral code of their society. Some of them even find fancy philosophical arguments to try and justify their moral code without involving God, but these arguments are always fallacious, because God is the source and the foundation of all law and morality. That is to say: if atheists behave in a moral manner, it is because they have not really thought about the consequences of atheism as a belief system, and still unthinkingly obey the God-sourced moral code of the surrounding culture.
5.24.2008 12:23am
ForgotAcct:
Yes. If morality is a human creation, than morality is subjective: depending on the premises you begin with, any belief system or philosophy can claim, with equal validity, to be 'moral'. And if anything can be moral, morality as a concept ceases to exist. The only way for an objective moral code to exist is if it is imposed on humanity from outside, ie, from God.


Is not religion--at least in any form actually practiced by humans--subjective then? Can there be more than one objective version of a religious truth? So who's right? Muslims? Jews? FLDS? 7th Day Adventists? Scientologist? catholics? etc? They all have different versions of morality. Are they all equally valid? How do you know when you have stumbled across the right true religious morality that ought to be obeyed?

Also interesting to me that Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar. Muhammad was a secular and religious ruler and law giver. The Jewish tradition has a long and highly developed legal tradition that gave birth to the other two. Yet your definitions give any secular law no legitimacy or morality. Indeed, by your standards, it seems like people would go to hell for obeying the laws of the society in which they live in? I don't think that's very moral!

Most atheists, even though they reject God, continue to follow (roughly) the God-given moral code of their society.


Is the US Constitution "God-given" -- I'm pretty sure any of the authors would STRONGLY deny so! What about all of our state and federal laws? Because I try to obey them generally.

Some of them even find fancy philosophical arguments to try and justify their moral code without involving God, but these arguments are always fallacious, because God is the source and the foundation of all law and morality.


I'm not sure that quite follows logic--it's quite circular!. As your definition of morality is solely defined by a god, of course--by your standards--of course morality without a god is impossible. However if you take a more common definition of morality...

That is to say: if atheists behave in a moral manner, it is because they have not really thought about the consequences of atheism as a belief system, and still unthinkingly obey the God-sourced moral code of the surrounding culture.


Question--billions of people worldwide (many East Asians, Buddhists, volokh posters) are atheists. Are they all immoral?
5.24.2008 12:50am
Scote (mail):

Then most atheists haven't really thought about the consequences of their worldview. Or they're lying; since atheism, by definition, lacks a moral compass, a lie is morally identical to the truth, and no atheist wants to admit that his philosophy makes him miserable.


Morality comes from our social instincts and empathy for others, which become codified in culture and society. Religion gets it's morality from people, not the other way around, though it becomes a somewhat iterative process since religion can be a way of inculcating societal morality, but so can any culture or society. And the morality that religion teaches can be evil, such as stoning people to **death** for leaving the religion (as required in the Koran) or for trying to temp believers from their faith (as required by the Old Testament). In many cases religion is a source of evil rather than a cure for it.

If morality only comes from the monotheistic God of Abraham then all Hindus and Buddhists should be murdering, lying sociopaths. Yet empirically we know that is false. Christians do not commit less crime than non Christians. In fact, there is a disproportionally **small** population of non-theists in prison. Your argument fails utterly, both logically and empirically.

Please note that the Ten Commandments are not the source of US law or morality. If they were, our first law would be "I am the lord thy God"--instead we have the Establishment Clause. And we'd have laws against graven images and covetousness--which, of course, we don't.
5.24.2008 12:54am
BruceM (mail) (www):
Atheism doesn't "lack a moral compass" any more than Religion X provides a moral compass. Religion is branded in terms of morality, but it's just marketing. Religious people need their own way of feeling superior, while being factually wrong, to compete with the factually correct people who (as I mentioned before) can have their own intellectual superiority.

corneille1640, crazy claims with no evidence in support of them, and plenty of evidence to the contrary, are factually wrong. We could argue over whether it's provable that the earth is round or flat, and get into a debate about epistemology. Not my goal. All religions are factually wrong. I can prove it as simply as pointing out all the internal contradictions in any religious text. When page 2 of the bible conflicts with page 3, and when page 4 of the koran conflicts with page 5, yet both books are supposedly entirely accurate, they are thus false.

Anyone who claims "laws come from God" gives the legislature WAY too much credit. If that were true, the bankruptcy code alone would be proof that god doesn't exist.

Note that while I concede religion makes people happy (at the expense of being wrong about one's beliefs and world view) I never said lack of religion makes people "miserable" or otherwise unhappy. Such a conclusion shouldn't be drawn. I compared religion to opiate use. Opiates make people happy. Does that mean not using opiates makes people sad? Of course not. The suggestion is ridiculous.
5.24.2008 1:20am
BruceM (mail) (www):
Also, if you need "faith" to know that murder is wrong, please stay far away from me. That's the same as those religious people who say "well if there's no god/heaven/hell what stops you from murdering and raping and stealing?" In other words, these sociopaths are conceding the only thing stopping them from murdering, raping, and stealing is their fear of hell and desire for heaven. If god could be disproven, they'd be killing at will. I encounter these people all the time. They are why I am thankful religion exists, even though I despise it. These people should all be monitored closely though.
5.24.2008 1:27am
dirc:
So why don't all of you non-churchgoers just start going to church every week? As Mr. Somin has pointed out:

What [the studies] show is a correlation between happiness and attendance at religious services.

Just the mere act of attendance, without religious belief, will increase the happiness of about 20% of you (according to the Brooks study). Raise your hand if you believe that, and report to your nearest house of worship.
5.24.2008 1:35am
Ilya Somin:
What [the studies] show is a correlation between happiness and attendance at religious services.


Just the mere act of attendance, without religious belief, will increase the happiness of about 20% of you (according to the Brooks study). Raise your hand if you believe that, and report to your nearest house of worship.


What the studies show is Correlation, not causation. Studies also show that Jews, on average, have higher incomes than gentiles. That doesn't mean that converting to Judaism will make a gentile any richer.
5.24.2008 1:44am
BruceM (mail) (www):
dirc they're just usuing weekly church attendance as a measure for religiosity. Only those who are religious will go to church every week.
5.24.2008 1:45am
theobromophile (www):
"Would you say that you are very happy, pretty happy, or not too happy?" Religious people were more than twice as likely as the secular to say they were "very happy" (43% to 21%)....Imagine two people who are identical in every important way--income, education, age, sex, family status, race and political views. The only difference is that the first person is religious; the second is secular. The religious person will still be 21 percentage points more likely than the secular person to say that he or she is very happy.

So when you control for age, income, education, etc., roughly 80% of the gap disappears? (If I'm reading this right, religious people are roughly twice as likely as the non-religious to report being "very happy;" however, once you control for various factors, they are about 21% more likely to do so.)

Does that not suggest that a lot of the happiness differential could be due to some other variable, not controlled for? Or that, since religiousity (actual word?) tends to run in families and communities, that there is a bit of a halo effect? If you are hanging around with married, educated, high-income people, they are likely to be happy, which will, in turn, make you a bit happier - because hanging around with happy people is different from hanging around with unhappy people. So even if you are not married, educated, high-income, white, etc., you're in the same social circle as those people.

Or maybe some of it is what my friend said, in regards to Christianity: "Heirs with Jesus, royalty baby!"
5.24.2008 2:30am
Doc Rampage (mail) (www):
Those of you who are arguing that atheists can be moral are missing the point. Of course atheists can be moral. The question is, why should they be moral? You might point to development or evolution for why they _are_ moral, but that doesn't explain why they _should be_ moral.

If the atheistic, physicalist world view is true then there is no philosophical reason for actually being moral (as opposed to acting moral until you are sure that you can get away with something). Why should you control yourself if you feel the urge to rape and you know that you can get away with it? After all, the woman is really just a bag of chemicals supporting some complex electrical phenomena that somehow gives the illusion of consciousness. In a few years --a trivial time period by geologic standards-- you and she will both be gone forever, broken down into components, brief illusion of self-importance faded with the electrical impulses. What difference if you get a little pleasure and she gets a little pain? Ultimately it's all just ion transfers in biological tissue. What does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? You are just a smart animal, after all and animals do that all the time.

As a physicalist atheist (as most atheists are these days), you can't appeal to abstract moral concepts such as duty until you have shown how those concepts can arise out of the physical. If you are a non-physicalist atheist then this specific argument won't work against you but an analogous argument probably will.

Also the two objections I've seen here to Christian morality are misunderstandings. First of all, the fact that there are other religions doesn't effect the rationality of following morality for a Christian. If you believe in Christianity, then you have a reason to be moral. If Christianity is in fact false then you are mistaken, but you do have a good reason given what you believe. By contrast, atheists have no good reason, mistaken or otherwise.

Second, the reason to be moral is not the danger of punishment. Many Christians (other than Catholics) do not believe that they will be punished for doing wrong. And even those who do believe that they will be punished do not say that this is the only reason to be moral. As non-physicalists, Christians can appeal to real, objective morality as a non-physical existent.
5.24.2008 4:21am
Caddy:
No, just ignorance....because of course, ignorance is bliss.
5.24.2008 5:41am
dirc:
Mr. Somin,

I understand your point that correlation does not prove causation, but there are few social studies that can offer more than correlation. I assumed that you stressed the point that the measure the Brooks study used was attendance, not some direct measure of belief, because you think that attendance more likely to be the causative factor in happiness than is belief. I was (gently, I hope), mocking that notion.

I am curious, how would you propose to structure a study to prove (or disprove) that greater religious belief causes greater personal happiness? Is it even possible? You hint that you think it is not.
5.24.2008 6:15am
BGates:
I'd rather not debunk someone's belief in religion for that exact reason (at times I think it can be as cruel as debunking belief in Santa Claus)
On behalf of St Paul, St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Isaac Newton, Martin Luther King, and Pope Benedict XVI (to name a few), thanks so much for not overwhelming our blinkered view of the world with your mighty intellect.
5.24.2008 6:26am
Roland Sound (mail):

"Actually, I imagine that this explains why so very many atheists are socially destructive, antireligious and especially antiChristian; their existential angst leads them to hate and envy religious people for having the answers that they refuse to accept.


So in your case religion doesn’t provide happiness so much as nastiness?

Your Christians' quickness to vicious, hateful personal attacks -- right out in the open, right where your angry nastiness is exposed to your Christian brothers -- points to the deep bigotry of your faith. Your religion teaches you it's _OK_ to hate. You wouldn't steal in public. You wouldn't cheat or lie or masturbate in public. But hurtful hateful personal attacks you do openly. You're not ashamed at all. None of your brothers will scold you. You all take this hatred for granted. Amazing. And sick.

Take it to Jesus in prayer ithaqua. He'll maybe have something else real hateful shitty you can say. We'll accept that as your witness.
5.24.2008 8:10am
Bruce Hayden (mail) (www):
Interesting how these discussions can verge into unexpected territory.

My question to the atheists here about morality is whether their morality might, to some extent, come from their ancestors' faith. I think that it is still somewhat hard to separate out how you were raised, how your parents were raised, etc., from the faith of those ancestors.

I suggest this because it seems like the morality of atheist Jews seems a bit different from that of those who (or whose parents) were raised Catholic or Protestant. Don't know that many of other ethnic backgrounds to generalize any further and admit that this is fairly weak subjective feeling.
5.24.2008 8:29am
Bruce Hayden (mail) (www):
Another thought.

Some who disclaim a belief in a Judeao/ Christian/ Moslem god seem to have found other higher callings, most notably these days earth worship, these days likely evidenced by panic over man caused global warming. The worry that our children or children's children will see massive famine, NYC flooded, etc. would seem depressing enough that it might bring the non-religious happiness quotient down. Ditto to some extent for other non-religious beliefs in lieu of religion. Looking at the extent of poverty in the world would seem to do the same.

Just throwing this out.
5.24.2008 8:35am
Washington Alrson (mail):
I'd rather not debunk someone's belief in religion for that exact reason (at times I think it can be as cruel as debunking belief in Santa Claus)
On behalf of St Paul, St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Isaac Newton, Martin Luther King, and Pope Benedict XVI (to name a few), thanks so much for not overwhelming our blinkered view of the world with your mighty intellect.


Well, since you decided to be snotty: POCM
5.24.2008 9:04am
Boiler Plate (mail):
Yeah, religion made this believer real happy: Don't tell mom you're an atheist
5.24.2008 9:20am
corneille1640 (mail):
Dear BruceM:

I certainly was NOT saying that morality comes from God. My claim--which you probably disagree with but what is different from what you made it out to be--is that belief that murder is wrong requires one to accept assumptions about right and wrong and that these assumptions are "unprovable." The assertion that murder is wrong is not provable. One could, of course, offer reasons why murder is wrong, but those reasons will beg the original question.

Also, I should say that of course religions have internal contradictions. At least all religions I'm familiar with do. Certainly my religion--Christianity--has internal contradictions. But doesn't atheism have some internal contradictions? As a non-atheist, I'm not the best person to point out the contradictions, but surely, BruceM, your reliance on reason and your status as someone who is constitutionally incapable of believing a falsehood despite evidence has put you occasionally in a position of finding logical contradictions in atheism.

However, even if I could prove that atheism suffers from internal contradictions, and even if you accept my argument that a process very similar to what I define as "faith" is essential for making choices about right and wrong (which prompts you to warn me to "stay away" from you, which, I suppose, is an example of atheists' open-mindedness and refusal to endorse bigotry of any kind), I acknowledge that still would not "disprove" the validity of atheism or "prove" the validity of religion.
5.24.2008 9:55am
corneille1640 (mail):
Correction: instead of "believing a falsehood without evidence," I should have said only "believing a falsehood."
5.24.2008 9:57am
Elliot Reed (mail):
Why not try testing for belief directly by asking people how strong their religious beliefs are? Obviously there are a lot of problems with the construct validity of this criterion but why not try it?

It would also be interesting to test the effect in religious communities that don't require any particular theological beliefs of their adherents. This is definitely true of Unitarian Universalism, and is becoming true of Quakerism and (to a lesser extent, I think) Reform Judaism. No doubt there are other such communities outside the rich world.
5.24.2008 10:24am
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
Re the American Founders, the Constitution &God.

There is almost nothing in the Constitution and little in the various notes from the CC that suggests they thought "God" wrote the Constitution. And certainly the ideas contained therein are hardly "biblical."

However I can muster some quotations from Madison and company that state God was watching over that "Providence" had Its "finger" in the affair.
5.24.2008 10:33am
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I should also note that if there is a "middle ground" in this debate it's America's Founders who were, theologically liberal closeted religious heretics, and in today's parlance would be thought of as "religious moderates." They disbelieved in eternal damnation and thought that good people experience happiness immediately upon death, the bad temporarily according to the degree of their sin, eventually saved.

I can't prove their vision of God is any truer than that of the orthodox but it sounds nicer. Here is a nice quote on John Adams expressing his unitarian-universalism:


We Unitarians, one of whom I have had the Honour to be, for more than sixty Years, do not indulge our Malignity in profane Cursing and Swearing, against you Calvinists; one of whom I know not how long you have been. You and I, once saw Calvin and Arius, on the Plafond of the Cathedral of St. John the Second in Spain roasting in the Flames of Hell. We Unitarians do not delight in thinking that Plato and Cicero, Tacitus Quintilian Plyny and even Diderot, are sweltering under the scalding drops of divine Vengeance, for all Eternity.

-- John Adams to John Quincy Adams, March 28, 1816.
5.24.2008 10:45am
BruceM (mail) (www):
My claim--which you probably disagree with but what is different from what you made it out to be--is that belief that murder is wrong requires one to accept assumptions about right and wrong and that these assumptions are "unprovable."

corneille1640: Yes, I do completely disagree. All crimes are wrong/immoral when, if not illegal and I could do it to you and you could do it to me, orderly society would simply collapse. It's simply a matter of the most basic economics. Crimes exist when we'd have complete anarcy in the alternative. If I can steal from you, that means you can steal from me. Thus no property rights. If I can murder you, you can murder me, and we'd quickly devolve into an animalistic battle over sex partners and food sources. Similarly if I don't have to pay my taxes then you don't have to pay your taxes and government won't be able to function. It doesn't take any unprovable assumptions to figure this out. Also, not all crimes are wrong or immoral. There may be measurable benefits by giving up the right to do certain things, but the question is whether society could still function. If I can speed in my car then you can speed in your car - but society will still function (it practically exists this way now) though there may be more traffic accidents. Crimes should only be limited to the actions that would result in societal collapse. Thus we make exceptions for self defense. Exceptions like self defense are self evident. Plus, no religious system operates to create such defenses, anyway.

In fact, insofar as murder itself is only defined as the "unlawful/wrongful killing" of another person, a proscription that "thou shalt not murder" is circular, and says nothing more than "thou shalt not kill someone when doing so is wrong or illegal." How the hell does that provide any moral guidance? It would be better to just say "thou shalt not break the law or commit wrongful/unreasonable acts." In fact, to not just come out and say that does more harm than good as you can apply the "expressio unius" maxim to a list of "Ten Commandments" and infer that actions like rape are perfectly fine since they're not listed there. Come to think of it, nowhere in the Bible does it even imply that rape is improper.

It doesn't take a genius (or maybe it does...) to figure out why we, as humans, should give up our right to kill other people - whenever we feel like it - without any justification.

Doc Rampage, please reaed my 12:27am post. It seems you may fall into the category I describe when you say that atheists have no reason to be moral (with the implicit corollary that only religious people have a reason to be moral).
5.24.2008 10:57am
therut:
HEHE. Athiests just show they are as angry and dogmatic about their "belief" or reasoned analysis of the Universe as everyone else. By "GOD" they are right and you are wrong. Human nature is always universal. Funny thing that is. Same ole arguments that have been going on since the beginning of time no matter how time came about. But they are SURE they KNOW. Yep sure.
5.24.2008 11:21am
William Oliver (mail) (www):
I think that Mr. Somin is redefining the issue in a way that makes no sense. His "bar" that these studies have to jump over is to show the benefit of "belief" defined in some abstract way that divorces itself from any behaviors associated with it.

That's not the issue. The author of the biblical book James said it well:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? ...faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
...You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. "

Thus, Mr. Somin has set up a straw man. He demands that, in order to convince him that faith is of benefit, we must show benefit in the kind of faith we believe has none.

What the studies have demonstrated is exactly what the writer says -- that those who live their faith derive some benefit from it. Those who do not, do not.

Mr. Somin would interview those shuddering demons and use their lack of comfort as proof they have nothing to shudder about.
5.24.2008 11:33am
Elliot Reed (mail):
Or they're lying; since atheism, by definition, lacks a moral compass, a lie is morally identical to the truth, and no atheist wants to admit that his philosophy makes him miserable.
Actually, atheism is defined as a lack of belief in any god or gods (or as a belief that there are no gods).
Actually, I imagine that this explains why so very many atheists are socially destructive, antireligious and especially antiChristian; their existential angst leads them to hate and envy religious people for having the answers that they refuse to accept.
Do you have any evidence that "so many" atheists are "socially destructive"? Certainly I am not aware of any evidence indicating that atheists are particularly prone to criminality.
Fear of Hell comes from the desire to reject Christ and live an unGodly life. Just like in real life, if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.
You have a very optimistic view of our justice system. Also, if you are a Christian, I think you may need a course in remedial theology. According to Christianity, there is only One who lived without doing anything wrong and you're not Him. See, e.g., Romans 3:23.
Which is why atheists act so arrogant and superior
I think your post shows pretty conclusively that you are projecting your own weaknesses onto us.
5.24.2008 11:58am
frankcross (mail):
Have all the faith you want, but the studies do not demonstrate that. They demonstrate something interesting -- that people in the US who attend church testify to greater happiness than those who do not. That's worthy of greater exploration. It may be a direct effect, it may be reverse causality, it may be a third factor, or it may be a measurement issue. But the studies show nothing intrinsic about religiosity, because, as I have noted, the results do not appear to hold true in other countries.
5.24.2008 11:58am
Elliot Reed (mail):
HEHE. Athiests just show they are as angry and dogmatic about their "belief" or reasoned analysis of the Universe as everyone else. By "GOD" they are right and you are wrong. Human nature is always universal. Funny thing that is. Same ole arguments that have been going on since the beginning of time no matter how time came about. But they are SURE they KNOW. Yep sure.
Unfortunately, this is definitely true of the most visible atheists. Most atheists are quasi-closeted atheists who don't talk about their atheism much and thus others can't identify them as "atheists" rather than as plain-vanilla nonreligious people. Nor is there any reason for us to be really loud about it: it's not a very interesting point of view. By itself, atheism won't tell you what's moral or how the world is going to end or even whether there are any souls or afterlives. You have to look to philosophy to give you all that stuff (except the world ending, which you get from science).

So typically the people who are loud and visible about their atheism are people who really hate religion like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.
5.24.2008 12:08pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"Do you have any evidence that "so many" atheists are "socially destructive"? Certainly I am not aware of any evidence indicating that atheists are particularly prone to criminality."

Ask and you shall receive.

There are multiple studies that show an inverse relationship between religiosity and criminal behavior. The inference of a relationship between disbelief is thus straightforward.

For a review, see:

Schreck CJ, Burek MW, Clark-Miller J.He sends rain upon the wicked: a panel study of the influence of religiosity on violent victimization.J Interpers Violence. 2007 Jul;22(7):872-93.

See also:
Baier, C. J., &Wright, B. R. E. (2001). “If you love me, keep my commandments”: A meta-analysis of the effect of religion on crime. Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency, 38, 3-21.
5.24.2008 12:11pm
Suzy (mail):
BruceM, when you say that religion makes people happy but only "at the expense of being wrong about one's beliefs and world view", how can rational people be happy while having false beliefs? Subjectivity is the perspective from which we experience our own happiness or lack thereof, but that does not mean that happiness is merely a matter of how an individual feels in any given moment.

For example, you say opiate use makes people happy. How much opiate? Can't we make some successful objective determinations about what feelings are produced by what amounts and what kinds? If we look at a year's time, or ten years, or a lifetime, does opiate use make people happy? Happier than the pain of end-stage cancer? Happier when on a high rather than suffering withdrawal? If happiness is simply a feeling of pleasure, then what happens when you take your pleasure in elusive, misleading things like opium or false beliefs?
5.24.2008 12:27pm
Suzy (mail):
To those who argue that atheists have no reason to be moral, or that their godless belief system is incompatible with happiness or morality, why are believers in any better position? I'm a Christian, but I chose that belief, and every day I make choices about how to behave that are no different than an atheist's choices. I do not choose to be good simply because God told me to, or I want a reward, or an avoidance of punishment.

If believers are moral because it makes them happier, then so too can atheists choose to be moral because it makes them happier.
If believers are moral because it is rewarded in an afterlife, so too can atheists be moral because it earns pleasant rewards in this life.
If believers are moral because they fear the punishment of a God, so too can atheists be moral because they fear the punishments of the law or even the disapproval of their associates.
If believers are moral because they believe that it is important to improve their own souls or fulfill duties, so too can atheists be moral because they want to improve themselves or fulfill duties to others.

Where do these moral obligations come from? The religious person thinks they come from God, but believes this only because of a prior choice to accept certain evidence about the reality of God and God's wishes. The moral atheist also makes a choice to believe that treating others well leads to a better life. Both choose in the absence of perfect evidence, unless you believe that God somehow compels believers to accept God and be moral. And if you believe that God chooses his own elect and excludes others from the possibility of morality or salvation, then you've got many worse paradoxes to explain than why an atheist might feel motivated to do good!
5.24.2008 12:38pm
Fredness (www):
How very funny.

The studies seem to consistently show that religious people are happier. You might even say that conclusion is fast becoming the "Scientific Consensus".

The atheist response? A refusal to believe the science. And very long posts like Ilya's trying to point out possible flaws in the studies. True, studies can be flawed and have to be very carefully examined. But one gets the impression that the results are odious, not the method.

The atheist response? Judging by these posts, sanctimonious comparisons of religion to Santa Claus, to crazily believing you are the Queen of England, etc, etc. A reduction of very complex religious thought to simple notions. The modern atheists seems to be prey to simplistic thinking, to bumper sticker slogans. (The Flying Spaghetti Monster! Zeus!) They also seems to be addicted to ridiculing the other side.

As I have read Christopher Hitchens et al, I am struck by the pure anti-truth nature of it all. So much of it depends on not knowing history in all its glory, but rather in choosing to believe a particular warped version of the facts. These works demean science, because they are polemical works rather than science guided works. They are emotional works, not scholarship. Plus, when you have 2,000 years of human history to dig through, a lot of dirt can be found.

And despite their claims to higher morality, their works consistently display strange, distasteful tendencies. Christopher Hitchens claims that atheists can be just as moral, but then when someone he dislikes dies, he writes particularly vicious pieces attacking them. Gerald Ford was a monster in his view. Mother Theresa seems to be the ultimate in evil, in his mind. Is this a new order of morality?

And consider Richard Dawkins' extraordinarily vain attempt to re-name atheists as "Brights". Of course, this means that religious people are by definition stupid. By definitino. Talk about arrogance.

Who would want to turn the world over to a philosophy that parochial, unkind, exclusive and elitist?

Can atheists be moral? Sure.

But in actual practice, they sure do seem to run off the moral rails rather quickly when not safely cocooned within a society permeated with religion.
5.24.2008 12:49pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"I'm a Christian, but I chose that belief, and every day I make choices about how to behave that are no different than an atheist's choices. I do not choose to be good simply because God told me to..."

I must be misinterpreting this. However, if you are a Christian and don't make decisions based on what God tells you to do, you might consider listening to Him. All in all, most Christians *do* believe that doing what God says to do is a pretty good option, at least for Christians. If God tells you to do something and your inclination is to do the opposite, I'd think hard before choosing the latter. YMMV, of course.

Seriously, your line of reasoning doesn't make sense to me. The act of choosing to believe in the Christ is a choice, certainly, but the implications of that choice are not as trivial as you imply. Choosing to walk off a cliff is a choice, but once you are off, there are certain experiential events that are going to shape your near future regardless of subsequent decisions. Giving your life to Christ is not like choosing which brand of orange juice to drink, where choosing one brand is like any other. It should be shaping the very way you perceive and think about the world around you. The indwelling of the Spirit makes things anything other than the equivalent of being an atheist.
5.24.2008 12:52pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I understand how my Santa Claus comparison could have been taken the wrong way. And let me say that I'm not an atheist. My point was even if Christian Hitchens et al. were right that religious belief is demonstrably false (by the way, Leo Strauss and Allan Bloom et al., what inspired Santa Claus comparison believed this; philosophy was a "search for the Truth" and philosophers as such discovered God didn't exist; they believed no true philosopher could believe in God; yet they defended public religious belief for its utilitarian effects and that it provided a needed opiate for the masses) given that religious belief does seem to comfort so many folks, it's cruel to inform your neighbor that God doesn't exist that you will never see your deceased loved ones again, much in the same way that it's cruel to tell a little child that Santa Claus doesn't exist.
5.24.2008 1:04pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
BTW: If any of you have a copy handy, see Allan Bloom's "The Closing of the American Mind," at p. 42. He discusses a debate he had with a fellow atheist and professor at Cornell. The other professor saw it as his duty to debunk religion in the minds of his students. Bloom's response was:


He reminded me of the little boy who gravely informed me when I was four that there is no Santa Clause, who wanted me to bathe in the brilliant light of truth....Think of all we learn about the world from men's belief in Santa Clauses, and all that we learn about the soul from those who believe in them.
5.24.2008 1:12pm
Randy R. (mail):
If nastiness is considered immoral, then there are a hell of lot of immoral people in the world, and that include Christians, atheists and everyone else. It's interesting that nastiness isn't considered in the Bible at all, and it's not even one of the 7 deadly sins.

Atheists can certainly be moral, and many of them are, because they in fact do have a moral compass. One doesn't have to be a Christian to believe that harming another person is wrong. One can certainly be a Christian and harm lots of people. Happens all the time.

One difference, though, is that people who strongly believe in a religion can convince themselves that they can harm another person, so long as it's in the service of religion. Sometimes, they believe their religion requires them to harm another. Whether it is the Inquisition, or discrimination against a group they don't like (atheists, or gays, or illegal immigrants, for instance).

In this, religion can be at least as dangerous as another other belief or nonbelief. When you believe you are doing God's work, then ironically all morality goes out the window. No harm is too great to 'save' another person, or worse, to enforce your version of morality upon another person. Of course, this is the exact opposite of Christ's teachings, but then hypocracy isn't immoral either -- at least according to the bible.
5.24.2008 1:35pm
frankcross (mail):

Fredness, your defense of the study would be better if you actually had some response to the methodological criticisms, rather than dismissing them without reason. And you are plainly wrong in your "off the rails" comment, unless you think that Western European nations exhibit this tendency (perhaps they do re your view of sexual morality but surely not other moral standards).

William Oliver provides useful information. For those who can't get to the studies: the first is on victimization rather than committing crimes (but it has data on questionable behavior like binge drinking). The second shows that the irreligious are more criminal. The effect size is pretty small (less than ten percent difference overall and even smaller for whites), but it seems to be there.
5.24.2008 1:54pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
how can rational people be happy while having false beliefs?

Because the false beliefs are nice, comforting ones that stroke the ego and provide comfort. That's the best answer I can give, beause like I said before, I'm simply not capable of maintaining a false belief. But the vast majority of people are. Given the choice between being right and being happy, 90% or more of humans choose the latter. And I don't hold it against them. It's an odd rational irrationality of sorts. It's rational to be irrational due to the benefits.
5.24.2008 1:57pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
THe definition of "happy" is missing.
Perhaps the religious are "content" with their lot, whatever it is, because their faith is bigger than their circumstances, whatever they may be, good, bad, rich, poor, sick, and so forth.
5.24.2008 1:58pm
theobromophile (www):
In fact, insofar as murder itself is only defined as the "unlawful/wrongful killing" of another person, a proscription that "thou shalt not murder" is circular, and says nothing more than "thou shalt not kill someone when doing so is wrong or illegal." How the hell does that provide any moral guidance?

Well, the moral guidance comes from the fact that God says that it is immoral to kill. That God is the one who, according to Christians, made us, created us, and gave us a conscience.

Now, if you wonder why God says that things are right and wrong, read the Euthyphro. ;)
5.24.2008 2:14pm
Suzy (mail):
In response to William Oliver's comment: "However, if you are a Christian and don't make decisions based on what God tells you to do, you might consider listening to Him."

I am not one of the lucky ones to whom God speaks directly. God has never literally told me "do this" or "don't do this". Even if I take Scripture to be God's word, I still have to choose how to interpret it. Thou shalt not kill... in self-defense? In defense of others? Ever, period? You get the idea. Everyone has to think and choose how to act, and most everyone has a conscience to guide choices. You may choose to be guided by Socrates and I may choose to be guided by Jesus, but I still have to figure out what that means in my day to day actions because Jesus is not here to tell me at each step. I read and think about what he did and said, and try to apply it.

If you think God is literally speaking in your ear how to be moral at each turn, then you have a big advantage and maybe yes, you are one of the elect and I'm not.
5.24.2008 2:25pm
Doc Rampage (mail) (www):
Suzy, this argument does not work: "If believers are moral because it makes them happier, then so too can atheists choose to be moral because it makes them happier.".

You essentially makes happiness the goal rather than goodness. If happiness is the goal, then you will only be good so long as it makes you happy; it does not create an obligation for you to be good. Even if you could argue that ultimately doing good always makes you happiest, this would still not be a defense of prescriptive ethical behavior, but only a descriptive observation of behavior.
5.24.2008 3:20pm
Suzy (mail):
My argument is simply that whatever reason believers give for trying to be moral, there's an equivalent atheist version. I'm not trying to argue that people should be good only insofar as it makes them happier; I'm just saying that if religious people find that being good makes them happy, so too can atheists find this.

Regardless of our religious beliefs, people feel obligations towards others. Presumably a believer does not stop feeling those obligations on days when the evidence for God's existence seems less compelling, and likewise it's not clear why the atheist should stop. Does either group have some direct line of contact to the source of all "being obligated"? No. We choose to believe in God and therefore to believe that obligations are real because God prefers it to be so. Or we choose not to believe in God and to believe that it is important to us to honor obligations and live morally. Either way, we have to make a choice and conclude that it matters how we live.
5.24.2008 4:08pm
CDR D (mail):
Setting aside for a moment the questions of "morality", and "obligations", I have to wonder about what an atheist actually believes.

He either believes in the principle ex nihilo, nihil fit, or he does not. If he believes in that principle, then he ought to be able to offer an explanation for the physical universe which we can see, or, conversely have to deny its existence.

If he rejects ex nihilo, nihil fit, then similarly he is faced with offering some kind of "first cause".

Seems logical to me that the atheist is in a position of defending an absurdity, whereas the theist truncates the mystery by assigning the apellation "God" to a first and eternal "cause".

IOW, the atheist ends up being no less dogmatic than the theist.
5.24.2008 6:32pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"...you are one of the elect and I'm not."

Suzy, this has nothing to do with being one of the "elect." The Christ promised the gift of the Holy Spirit to all believers. I don't know your personal situation and I am not a very good Christian, so I try to stay out of the business of personal counselling.

But that being said, if you are trying to figure out things on your own, you are acting like Nicodemus trying to reason out how someone can re-enter the womb. If your congregation is devoid of the Spirit, find one that is not. Of course, different people receive guidance from the Spirit in different ways, and have different gifts. But in whatever manifestation, it is your birthright through your rebirth in Jesus Christ.

It doesn't always come easy for everyone. That's why some become mystics and engage in ritual and discipline. It's why some go to Charismatic churches and try to find it in a group. It's why some worship God alone in the mountain, and others in service on skid row. And everyone is a varying distance from God during their lives -- remember the long dark night of the soul of Mother Theresa.

But it's there for you, and it's not an issue of election. I don't know what barriers there are in your life, or how to erase them, but if you have given your life to Christ, the Spirit is there for you. Learning to hear it will be a wonderful exploration for you. It was for me, though it involved me leaving the church and playing with everything from atheism to paganism to Buddhism to Islam before returning to Christ.

If you don't know people in your congregation who experience guidance from the Spirit, then find one where they do. Explore. Some congregations are clearly dead to the Spirit. Some clearly substitute their own egos for it, where every little flatulent urge is considered the voice of God. But there are many who have gotten it right. They are still congregations of people -- with all of people's failings -- but when it's right, you will know. And when you do find it, it will make all of the chittering of petty antichristians irrelevant.
5.24.2008 6:38pm
Steve in CA (mail):
ithaqua said a lot of silly thing, but this one stuck with me:


It is literally impossible to become intoxicated from Communion. Transubstantiation and all.


What does that even mean? I know you're not likely to become intoxicated from communion wine, because it's a very small amount of wine. But what does transubstantiation have to do with it? Does Jesus's blood replace the alcohol content or something?
5.24.2008 7:27pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
theobromophile: god doesn't say it's immoral to kill, he said immoral to murder. Though there may be versions of the 10 commandments that say both (how's that for "moral guidance"!). If it said not to kill, how do you know god meant not to kill people? Surely god meant the "wrongful killing", i.e. "murder" of humans. Otherwise all Christians would be against war and the death penalty and self-defense and any authorization for the use of deadly force (including escaping prisoners).

No, any version of the 10 Commandments that says "thou shalt not kill" actually meant "thou shalt not murder." And that, as I said before, is circular and provides no moral guidance beyond not doing things wrong or illegal. In fact, since only a select few wrong/illegal acts are named (murder, theft, and to an extent perjury), the expressio unius est exclusio alterius (The express mention of one thing excludes all others) canon of construction would imply that all other wrongful/illegal acts are perfectly acceptable to God, thus not immoral.

In my experience, not only does religion (primarily Christianity as I live in America and interact mostly with Christians of all sorts) not provide any moral guidance, but it encourages immorality. Many religious people feel they can act in any way they desire and harm others because they are a full-blown member of a religion, other people are not, and they Know that they're going to heaven; if they commit a sin they can just ask for forgiveness, pray and go to church (maybe even give a few dollars), and all is well. I'm not saying that is a normative description of the way Christianity is supposed to work, only that many Christians see it that way. That being said, nobody can truly say what the normative operation of Christianity really is, and I scoff at people who say "then he's not a real christian like I am" when shown bad behavior in the name of, or excused by, Christianity. Just because your version of the religion is more socially acceptable and less dangerous to others doesn't mean it's right; in fact, all else equal you're probably the one who is wrong.

Islam is even worse - it not only passively encourages immoral acts, it actively encourages them against infidels (non-muslims), women, and other listed groups. How does Islam provide any moral guidance? Or are people only saying christianity (i.e. their own religion) provides moral guidance?
5.24.2008 7:41pm
frankcross (mail):
Steve, you'd be amazed at the alcohol content of Jesus' blood. It's like, 10,000 proof
5.24.2008 7:54pm
Elliot Reed (mail):
Many religious people feel they can act in any way they desire and harm others because they are a full-blown member of a religion, other people are not, and they Know that they're going to heaven; if they commit a sin they can just ask for forgiveness, pray and go to church (maybe even give a few dollars), and all is well. I'm not saying that is a normative description of the way Christianity is supposed to work, only that many Christians see it that way.
No doubt there are a lot of religious people who feel they can do what they want regardless of harm to others, if only because there are a lot of people. But the particular view you're attributing to them (it's OK to do wrongs because you can just get forgiveness later) is a ludicrous distortion of anything anyone actually believes.
5.24.2008 8:08pm
Scote (mail):

Seems logical to me that the atheist is in a position of defending an absurdity, whereas the theist truncates the mystery by assigning the apellation "God" to a first and eternal "cause".

IOW, the atheist ends up being no less dogmatic than the theist.


No. Atheism just means without god or god(s). As to the exact way in which the universe came to be, one can admit that we have some strong ideas but we still don't know without absolute certainty. It is theists who claim to "know" with certainty: God did it--but, they conveniently exempt God from needing a first cause by attempting to define God as needing no first cause. If God needed no first cause and can exist without one, then so, too, can the universe--so theists have created a tortured logic trap from which they cannot escape.
5.24.2008 8:39pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I think Scote's and CDR's posts well illustrate what I'm caught in an "agnostic" trap. I would say that I find both notions to be equally plausible and hence a draw. James Madison said something similar yet, he also noted that the human mind tended to prefer the existence of a Creator and hence tended to resolve the draw that way. And, I should note, he said he himself preferred theism to atheism. But his response was that of a theistic rationalist, not an orthodox Christian. From his letter to Frederick Beasley Nov. 20, 1825.


The finiteness of the human understanding betrays itself on all subjects, but more especially when it contemplates such as involve infinity. What may safely be said seems to be, that the infinity of time &space forces itself on our conception, a limitation of either being inconceivable; that the mind prefers at once the idea of a self-existing cause to that of an infinite series of cause &effect, which augments, instead of avoiding the difficulty; and that it finds more facility in assenting to the self-existence of an invisible cause possessing infinite power, wisdom &goodness, than to the self-existence of the universe, visibly destitute of those attributes, and which may be the effect of them. In this comparative facility of conception &belief, all philosophical Reasoning on the subject must perhaps terminate. But that I may not get farther beyond my depth, and without the resources which bear you up in fathoming efforts, I hasten to thank you for the favour which has made me your debtor, and to assure you of my esteem &my respectful regards.
5.24.2008 9:13pm
Scote (mail):

Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I think Scote's and CDR's posts well illustrate what I'm caught in an "agnostic" trap.

The problem with that is that it is a false dichotomy. The choices are not atheism or Christianity because the number and kinds of possible gods are infinite thus the choices are "believe based on evidence" (atheism or agnosticism) or believe without evidence (all faith-based supernatural religions, such as Christianity, Greek mythology, Judaism, Native American spirituality, New Age spirituality, Wicca, etc..)
5.24.2008 9:52pm
mouse (mail):
BruceM said:
--All crimes are wrong/immoral when, if not illegal and I could do it to you and you could do it to me, orderly society would simply collapse. It's simply a matter of the most basic economics. Crimes exist when we'd have complete anarcy in the alternative.

What does the symmetry mean here? By your definition, Honor Killings aren't crimes. So while some religions allow it and others don't, you definitely haven't shown that your secular society isn't based on certain fundamental assumptions. A secular tribal society that allowed a certain amount of murder and retribution might be quite stable, in fact.

Even urban gang violence in inner cities doesn't create total anarchy. Baltimore, LA, Chicago all function with vast amounts of murder without being total anarchy. These are functioning societies with different assumptions. How do you account for that?
5.24.2008 10:05pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
The choices are not atheism or Christianity because the number and kinds of possible gods are infinite....

I somewhat agree here. If there is a "Creator" and my mind inclines me to favor that there is over a "self-existent universe," the proper pronoun to describe such is "He/She/It/They."
5.24.2008 11:03pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
mouse: just because some people break the law doesn't mean everyone is doing it. Why would a limited amount of law breaking ever create total anarcy? That makes no sense. There will always be killings, you're missing the point.

Additionally, if killing people is allowed in certain defined instances, that's okay. If a society wants to kill one blond virgin each harvest season, okay. That's not going to cause society to collapse.

The basic common law malum in se crimes (murder, burglary, robbery, rape, embezzlement, etc) are the ones that a stable society must have in order to function. If anyone can do it, and thus anyone can be a victim of it, ordered civilization cannot exist. It would mean no safety, and no property rights. The only way to guarantee personal security and property rights is for us all to agree to respect the bodies and property of others, and thus give up the right to harm others and their property.

Other proscripted behaviors, such as possessing certain leaves, have nothing to do with morality, only policy. Each society can determine its own policy.

Scote: well said (your last post). I'd add that merely not believing in something is not a belief in and of itself (which I think you understand but your post implies the contrary). "Not believe based on evidence" is the better way to describe atheism/agnosticism. If I ask you if you want to join me in a game of chess and you decline, you have not started your own game, you've just declined to join me in mine. Similarly, I decline to join anyone's religion, but that doesn't mean I've started a religion of my own.
5.24.2008 11:12pm
Scote (mail):

Scote: well said (your last post). I'd add that merely not believing in something is not a belief in and of itself (which I think you understand but your post implies the contrary).

I think I was a little un clear on what I meant. I intended to convey the two opposing standards of evidence one can use to base what one considers a reasonable basis for believing or withholding belief, rather than meaning to imply that one could believe in god based on evidence vs. faith. That is, the choice is not as Pascal would have us believe "Heathen" or "Christian" but a withholding of belief based on the insufficiency of evidence for god or any gods (de facto atheism based on asymptotic agnosticism) or believing in the supernatural without evidence. And I say supernatural because the Christian god is just one example of a god and without evidence to base one's belief on there is no sound reason to believe in any specific god (nay, any god) over any other.
5.24.2008 11:56pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
I gotcha. This actually brings up an interesting issue. If someone believes in god based on evidence, don't they lack faith? Isn't the belief in god, not based on evidence, the very essence of faith? Faith is being able to say "I know there's no evidence in support of my belief, but I believe it anyway." Religions by their very dogma cannot be proven to be factually correct. In fact they can usually be shown to be partially, if not wholly, false. Religious creators knew this and that's why faith has been made central to all religions. Logic and facts are anathema to faith. We actually have a Christian, as president, who dislikes the "fact-based community" (as he calls it).

Anyone who says he believes in god due to hard evidence is probably suffering from schizophrenia or some other severe mental disorder causing voices and hallucinations.

So you can either believe due to a lack of evidence (faith) or not believe due to a lack of evidence. But religious people trying to find evidence that proves god exists are misguided, lack faith, and will burn in hell (per the terms of their own religion).
5.25.2008 12:33am
Elliot Reed (mail):
BruceM: that's another absurd distortion of the beliefs of the religious. Most religions don't have anything resembling the Christian conception of Hell. Of those that do, few propose that everyone who lacks a certain type of faith is going there. I don't think mainline Protestants are committed to any such proposition, and neither are Catholics.
5.25.2008 2:09am
ForgotAcct:
Elliot:

"Most religions don't have anything resembling the Christian conception of Hell."

What's the Christian conception of Hell? Or rather, what about the Christian conception of an afterlife of punishment is unique to Christianity?

Greco-Roman religions certainly had an unpleasant afterlife. Christianity obviously does. Same for Islam. Hinduism?--yep (google Naraka). It's been awhile since religious studies classes, but I seem to remember some mystical jewish traditions had a negative afterlife as well.

Ok, so long story short, with Christianity+Islam+Hinduism alone, I would think that's well over half the population of the world that in some forms recognizes a hell. Are you claiming that the belief that only believers go to heaven and non-believers go to hell is unique? I could run down the list, but I don't think you're accurate on that point either.
5.25.2008 5:45am
markm (mail):

frankcross (mail):
William Oliver provides useful information. For those who can't get to the studies: the first is on victimization rather than committing crimes (but it has data on questionable behavior like binge drinking). The second shows that the irreligious are more criminal. The effect size is pretty small (less than ten percent difference overall and even smaller for whites), but it seems to be there.

It would be useful information if it didn't confound bad Christians with atheists. The prisons aren't full of atheists, but they are full of men and women who believe in some form of religion but do not or cannot make their behavior conform to their beliefs.
5.25.2008 8:02am
markm (mail):
CDR D: Atheists do not have to believe anything at all about the origin of the universe, just to accept that it's not known, and unlikely to ever be knowable - considering the efficiency of the big bang plus 13 billion years in erasing evidence of a previous condition. We don't get so obsessed over unknowable questions that we simply make something up, or accept something that others made up long ago.
5.25.2008 8:08am
markm (mail):
To all of you that think you can find an "objective" moral code in the Bible: I am so thankful that your guide in interpreting the Bible wasn't David Koresh, Jim Jones, or Simon de Montfort. Especially de Montfort, who unlike Koresh and Jones, was not a founder of some oddball sect, but followed the same version of Christianity as nearly all of western Europe in his time.

If you really want an objective moral code, perhaps you should start with Aristotle...
5.25.2008 8:37am
Bad (mail) (www):
Doc Rampage: "Those of you who are arguing that atheists can be moral are missing the point. Of course atheists can be moral. The question is, why should they be moral? You might point to development or evolution for why they _are_ moral, but that doesn't explain why they _should be_ moral."

I think you're missing the point. All answers to the question of why someone should be moral have to trace back to some particular set of values.

No theist can trace their set of values back to any philosophically superior or better founded ground than any atheist. Generally all that happens is that they either judge whatever they think is God's judgment to be what's good, or insist that God knows what's best better than human beings. Neither of those positions really answers the question of "what is good" better than simply holding certain values to begin with, such as empathy for the interests and feelings of other people.

Morality is a genuinely hard and confounded philosophical issue. But contrary to the pretensions of some we're all in the same boat in trying to figure it out. Merely asserting entire supernatural realms doesn't provide any solutions to moral questions any better than positing a soul explains consciousness: its just another extraneous step and unintelligible entity thrown into the mix, which itself doesn't explain anything.

What's the point of asserting that "do not steal" is some sort of mystical object floating around in supernatural ether? How does that resolve or illuminate anything?

"As a physicalist atheist (as most atheists are these days), you can't appeal to abstract moral concepts such as duty until you have shown how those concepts can arise out of the physical."

This makes little sense. You'll have to explain why anyone would expect abstract concepts to be in some sense physical things, rather than judgments about physical things, which is what most people treat them as being.
5.25.2008 10:59am
CDR D (mail):
markm >>>Atheists do not have to believe anything at all about the origin of the universe, just to accept that it's not known, and unlikely to ever be knowable -

<<<

This describes what I have always understood to be "agnostic". OTOH, atheists, as I understand that term, are just as firm as theists in their position.

Perhaps the distinction between "atheist" and "agnostic" has blurred over the years.

(I'm getting kinda old).
5.25.2008 11:33am
Bad (mail) (www):
"Perhaps the distinction between "atheist" and "agnostic" has blurred over the years. "

The definitions have always been rather confused and contentious, not least of all because many people have an interest in them being so.

Most theists think of atheists as claiming that no god exists, since that direct position is a difficult one to defend, and thus easier pickings. The advantage is that it also helps muddle the issue: it quietly ignores the fact that not believing in something does not actually require making any claims or assertions at all about that something existing or not.

And thus most atheists seem to define it as simply not believing in a god: unconvinced and skeptical of the claims for god (note that the former definition actually is a subset of this larger one: if atheists are all those who do not believe in god, then strong atheists are a subset of those who also believe that there is no god).

Agnosticism, on the other hand, concerns knowledge, not belief. There are agnostic theists (We cannot know anything about god, but I believe he exists) and agnostic atheists (I don't have any knowledge of a god existing, and thus belief would be unwarranted).
5.25.2008 1:48pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"Most theists think of atheists as claiming that no god exists, since that direct position is a difficult one to defend, and thus easier pickings. The advantage is that it also helps muddle the issue: it quietly ignores the fact that not believing in something does not actually require making any claims or assertions at all about that something existing or not. "

I think you'll get some disagreement on who is muddling the issue here. The atheists you know may be walking around saying "I don't know if a God exists" but the ones I know take the position that God simply doesn't exist.
5.25.2008 2:25pm
Scote (mail):

I think you'll get some disagreement on who is muddling the issue here. The atheists you know may be walking around saying "I don't know if a God exists" but the ones I know take the position that God simply doesn't exist.

Only to the degree they also claim Leprechauns with pots of gold do not exist. While it isn't possible to prove an unrestricted negative, it is possible to say that something which is nearly infinitely unlikely (as is the idea of one specific god over the infinite number of "possible" gods) there is no evidence to believe, nor likely to ever be, is reasonable to actively disbelieve. Atheism is usually (IMO) a more assertive form of agnosticism, in which supernatural gods are actively denied for lack of evidence, but still open to proof in the form of extraordinary evidence. It is a scientific standard of proof. You believe what is known to the best of our knowledge, but your mind is open to change with proof and confirmation.
5.25.2008 2:37pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
Most atheists say they don't believe in a god based on existing evidence, but if that were to change, they'd have an open mind and may change their position.

That alone is different from most religious people. If a working time machine were invented tomorrow, and you took back a bunch of Christians to the time of jesus and they all saw that Jesus was not divine and had no supernatural powers and did not rise from the grave (in fact, he was just a normal guy), I think most of the Christians would simply ignore what they'd seen and call the time machine a trick of Satan. So, even new evidence won't change their position (which is not based on evidence to begin with, nor should it be as that would lack faith).
5.25.2008 3:12pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"...I think most of the Christians would simply ignore what they'd seen and call the time machine a trick of Satan. So, even new evidence won't change their position (which is not based on evidence to begin with, nor should it be as that would lack faith)."

Or not. Argument from bigotry, while certainly a prime tool in the armamentarium of the evangelical atheist, is only convincing to other evangelical atheists.
5.25.2008 5:07pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
William, if a Christian is shown actual hard-evidence, first-hand proof that Jesus was not divine, they'd have to either accept the evidence and no longer be a Christian, or they'd have to dismiss it as a trick (or otherwise false) in order to maintain their faith.
5.25.2008 5:28pm
CDR D (mail):
>>>Agnosticism, on the other hand, concerns knowledge, not belief. There are agnostic theists (We cannot know anything about god, but I believe he exists) and agnostic atheists (I don't have any knowledge of a god existing, and thus belief would be unwarranted).

***

Hmm. "Agnostic theists". Interesting. In contemplating this question, I am not considering what I would call modern "religionists".

The following remarks have been attributed to Albert Einstein:

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

***

I have to wonder... does "agnostic theist" = "Deist"...?
5.25.2008 5:36pm
ReaderY:
Are lawyers happier than others? If not, do they have anything useful to say and should one listen to them? What about scientists? What about doctors?

What if it could be proven that Socrates was less happy than a pig?
5.25.2008 5:48pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
The practice of law is not designed to make people happy. Religion, on the other hand, is designed to make people happy. That's why this question (the topic of this thread) is relevant and not completely random.
5.25.2008 7:55pm
CDR D (mail):
>>>The practice of law is not designed to make people happy.

>>>

True.

The practice of law is designed to make lawyers happy.
5.25.2008 8:23pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"The practice of law is designed to make lawyers happy."

... and religion is designed to make God happy.
5.25.2008 8:36pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"William, if a Christian is shown actual hard-evidence, first-hand proof that Jesus was not divine, they'd have to either accept the evidence and no longer be a Christian, or they'd have to dismiss it as a trick (or otherwise false) in order to maintain their faith."

Which does not address the bigotry in your previous claim.
5.25.2008 8:37pm
theobromophile (www):
BruceM,

Um.... mea culpa on typing "kill" instead of "murder." Now that you got your two-paragraph harangue out of your system, can we continue?

As for the Ten Commandments being limited, yeah, well, they are. Nevetheless, the Bible is a long freakin book, and, after Moses came down with the Commandments, Jesus gave a bunch of other instructions. It hardly follows that anything which is not expressly prohibited in the Ten is permitted. I will add that the Bible gives instructions on what you are supposed to do, as well as what you are not supposed to do (the Ten Commandments being largely prohibitions), so, again, that argument fails.

If someone believes in god based on evidence, don't they lack faith? Isn't the belief in god, not based on evidence, the very essence of faith? Faith is being able to say "I know there's no evidence in support of my belief, but I believe it anyway."

False dichotomy. The options are not limited to: "no evidence" v. "all evidence for all pieces of the religion." In this situation, the paradigm of "God our Father" is particularly meaningful. When growing up, we accumulated evidence that our parents were pretty smart (well, some of us never had the rebellious teenage years). When they told us to not do something, we eventually didn't need to question them on it - they had been right about things we could confirm, so we could trust that they were correct about things we could not confirm. Likewise, a person may look around at the universe, the human body, life, and consciousness, and determine that there must be some diviine Being who made it all. The universe, etc. can serve as evidence for that being, but hardly gets us all the way, to, say, the Christian God, the Trinity, and the promise of heaven. I know this sounds odd, but evidence gets you to the point of faith. A person can examine the achaeological and historical evidence for the life of Jesus, but the faith is believing that he is the son of God (or, to take a more rational view of it, selecting "Lord" from C.S. Lewis's famous trilemma: liar, lunatic, or Lord).

I think most of the Christians would simply ignore what they'd seen and call the time machine a trick of Satan

So your evidence for the fact that religious people are not rational is... wild speculation. Nice. I'll take this opportunity to direct your attention to the aforementioned Mr. C.S. Lewis, an atheist for most of his life until his intellect was won over by Tolkien.

Did I miss anything? I had not checked this thread in a few days.

I should mention that my pseudonym means "chocolate lover." Threads like this lead to a few misunderstandings. :)
5.25.2008 10:32pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
theobromophile:

Tolkien didn't convince Lewis to become a Christian.

Anyway, sure there are proscriptions found in both the old and new testaments other than the 10 commandments. I only mentioned the 10 commandments because Christians cite them as the foundation of our laws and basis of morality. Once you get into saying the New testament is the basis of morality you cause a religious war with jews, and can't use the bi-partisan "judeochristian" moniker. Anyway, most of the "do's" and "don'ts" found in both the old and new testament are either contradicted later on by another passage, or are absolutely insane (like stoning people) an widely ignored by modern society. So again, there is no basis to say religion (not christianity, not judaism, not islam) provides a basis of morality. It's just marketing, nothing more. Buying an apple ipod doesn't provide a basis of coolness, either. It's just marketing.

I disagree with your allegation that I've set up a false dicotomy. Either you are an atheist based on a lack of evidence in support of religion, or you are religious based on faith. Sure, there's are two other options. You can be religious based on hard evidence - that means you have visual and auditory hallucinations and are suffering from a severe mental disorder. Or you can be an atheist based on hard evidence - but religion is designed to prevent that, god is defined so that he has the power to "hide" despite any evidence to the contrary. And this position switches the burden of proof. Religious people have the burden to prove they are correct, those who don't want to join in the belief don't have the burden to prove why the religion is incorrect.

My evidence for the fact that religious people are not rational is their own dogma - the requirement of faith. Faith is not rational. Like I said before, however, there are tangible benefits to be had from this irrationality, and not much if anything to be lost; other than to know you're irrational. So in a way, it's rational to be irrational.

William: I see no bigotry in anything I've said. Nor have you stated how anything I've said is actually bigoted. I'm not a bigot, I just hate organized religion. Bigotry is being partial to one's own group and intolerant of others. I don't surround myself with atheists, and I tolerate religious people just fine (so long as they're not trying to force their beliefs on me). I just don't respect their choice, it's intellectually dishonest. All faith is. But I'm incapable of having faith, so maybe I'm just jealous.
5.25.2008 11:12pm
theobromophile (www):
Tolkien didn't convince Lewis to become a Christian.

How sure are you about that?

Anyway, most of the "do's" and "don'ts" found in both the old and new testament are either contradicted later on by another passage, or are absolutely insane (like stoning people) an widely ignored by modern society.

No, not true. That which is written later and "contradicts" that which is written before often has an explanatory note as to why the stricture is no longer followed.

You can be religious based on hard evidence - that means you have visual and auditory hallucinations and are suffering from a severe mental disorder.

Or you are capable of reading the Bible.

Or, as I stated above, if you use evidence to verify that which can be verified - for example, the Dead Sea Scrolls, contemporaneous writings, etc. - and use faith to trust that if those things are true, the rest is true.

Religious people have the burden to prove they are correct, those who don't want to join in the belief don't have the burden to prove why the religion is incorrect.

True, but irrelevant to your point. No one is forcing anyone to join in a belief system here. If you consider atheism to be a religious belief - after all, it is quite a definitive statement about the origins of the universe, the existence and nature of a supreme being or beings, and the origins of morality - then each side has an identical burden of proof.

An atheist need not disprove each and every religion, no more than a Wiccan must disprove Christianity. They are only required to support their own religion. Why is it that the hyper-rational atheists shy from proving that there is no God? If they do not want to prove a negative, then they may term themselves agnostics, theists, non-believers, or abstain from the fray. However, once the definitive statement about the existence of a higher Being has been made, it is up to the individual who makes that statement to back it up.

My evidence for the fact that religious people are not rational is their own dogma - the requirement of faith. Faith is not rational.

Then why is it that physics departments are often loaded with believers? Are those people not rational? Was C.S. Lewis a loony toon? Chesterton, a nut?

So again, there is no basis to say religion (not christianity, not judaism, not islam) provides a basis of morality.

No, only under the constrained requirements that you impose upon it. Nearly every religion in every culture, time period, and location has attempted to introduce a moral code. One could even say that the very purpose of religion is to do so. As for the Judeo-Christian tradition: well, read the relevant text like one would read the Constitution. The same principles of construction apply. Whether or not their adherenets follow that morality is a different issue, but the religion does establish a morality which its believers are commanded to follow and adopt as their own.
5.25.2008 11:32pm
theobromophile (www):
A P.S.. My first statement contains four links. I got bored after that. Let me know if you would like more info.
5.25.2008 11:33pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
I was thinking more specifically about Lewis joining the Church of England; it's been a while since i've read anything about (or by) tolkien or lewis, but I recalled Tolkien disapproved of Lewis joining the CoE. Tokein himself was a Catholic. If my comment implied tolkien was an atheist or anti-religion (based on the tone of my comments in this thread) that's not what I meant. And most sources seem to say that Tolkien's faith was instrumental in Lewis becoming a christian. But to say Tolkien "won over the intellect" of Lewis implies active and successful attempt at conversion. That's not what happened. Lewis didn't even join the same sect of Christianity. But anyway... the whole thing about Lewis and Tokien is not relevant to this conversation.

That which is written later and "contradicts" that which is written before often has an explanatory note as to why the stricture is no longer followed.

I've long wished that God had provided footnotes to his various purported writings, whether it's the Bible, Torah, Koran, Dianetics, Book of Mormon, etc. While you can certainly find great annotations to the Bible, they are written by men and never considered the Word of God. Heck, explaining what the bible means is the most profitable industry in the history of mankind. But let's get down to the heart of the matter - are you actually claiming the bible (or even just the New Testament) is not internally inconsistant? Are you saying the New Testament does not contradict itself? I'll accept that in any contradiction between the Old Testament and New Testament, the NT controls as superceding dogma. Though if God were perfect and infallible he wouldn't be changing his mind with superceding Word of God. If there were a god, he wouldn't Flip Flop.

If you consider atheism to be a religious belief - after all, it is quite a definitive statement about the origins of the universe, the existence and nature of a supreme being or beings, and the origins of morality - then each side has an identical burden of proof.

A true atheist is not going to make any definitive claims about such things. Atheists are not afraid to say "I don't know." There may be theories, such as the Big Bang, but no atheist will claim to know them as absolute Truth with the capital T. If one were to do so, I'd agree that a burden of proof must be met. The precise quantum of proof depends on the nature of the theory and evidence in support, and testability of hypotheses. Evolution is testable and observable, and thus takes less proof than a "god did it all bang! poof!" theory does. But yes, they both still require proof as they are both positive assertions.

An atheist need not disprove each and every religion, no more than a Wiccan must disprove Christianity. They are only required to support their own religion.

Why don't religious people have some minimal burden to show, even by a preponderance of the evidence, that the religion they've picked is the right one? I have no respect for your decision to be a Christian if it just happens that your parents had the same religion and you've never spent a day in your life considering the alternatives. No respect at all. In fact, you've turned your particular religion into a genetic condition, passed down from parent to child.

Why is it that the hyper-rational atheists shy from proving that there is no God?

Because religions define God such that his existence can never be proved. Like taking christians back in time to see that Jesus was not divine, it would be an exercise in futility. Few people, if any, would be swayed by proof that god doesn't exist. They'd just consider it a test of faith, trick of the devil (like old fossils that show the earth is > 6000 yrs old), or falsified.

Then why is it that physics departments are often loaded with believers? Are those people not rational? Was C.S. Lewis a loony toon? Chesterton, a nut?

They're not rational about religion. That doesn't mean they can't be rational about other things. It goes back to the topic of this thead. If being irrational about one, inconsequential thing in your life will make you significantly happier, why not do it? I've already conceded that not only doing so is perfectly okay, but that I am somewhat envious of the people who can do it.

It has, I must say, always amazed and mystified me as to how many really, truly, unquestionably intelligent people claim to be religious. Though I've noticed that they claim it moreso than they actually practice it. At the end of the day, though, I have no doubt that sincerely devout, fundamental, most-important-thing-in-life religiousity is
a quality of stupid, poor, uneducated, and ignorant people. From the filthy islamic sand people in the middle east to the smelly white trash trailor park mullet-head and impoverished african american slave descendant* evangelical christians in the USA to the Hindus drinking and bathing in their own feces in the Ganges River in India, they are the most religious the world has to offer. They have nothing else that can provide any happiness, they see praying as a way to improve their life ("please god, give me food and money"), and they have no education to even begin to ask questions about alternatives. Ironically, religion keeps these people trapped in their horrible positions moreso than any other factor. Just hearing Jerry Falwell tell ten thousand morons that god wants them to be rich but that they have to first give him all their money - to even take out a loan if they can - leaves no doubt about this.

* It always makes me laugh that white christians captured africans, forcibly carried them to America, sold them as slaves, forced them to work in horrible conditions, beat them, tortured them, and treated them like nothing more than property, made it illegal to teach them to read, and taught them Christianity because the bible says slaves should obey their masters... and the Africans actually abandoned their native religions and accepted the white religion, prayed to a white god, and passed it down to their children. Now African Americans are some of the most devout Christians in America! Actually praying to white Jesus as their god. Truly the last scar of slavery... I don't see how any self-respecting African American can be a Christian of any sort. It's embarrassing to even see it second hand.

Of course, I have a theory that religiosity is directly proportional to the amount of melanin in the skin. But that's another topic for another post, and I don't yet have the data to support it - it's just a hypothesis at this juncture.
5.26.2008 2:29am
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"William: I see no bigotry in anything I've said. Nor have you stated how anything I've said is actually bigoted. I'm not a bigot, I just hate organized religion...."

Heh. Bigots rarely believe they are bigoted. Go back and and read what you wrote about how you believe Christians would act if given proof of the lack of divinity of the Christ. Now ask yourself how African-Americans would act if placed near fried chicken and watermelon.

Turns out, Bruce, that religious bigotry counts as bigotry.
5.26.2008 8:20am
Bad (mail) (www):
"William Oliver: I think you'll get some disagreement on who is muddling the issue here. The atheists you know may be walking around saying "I don't know if a God exists" but the ones I know take the position that God simply doesn't exist."

Sounds to me like you're getting yourself confused. Whether or not one "doesn't know" if God exists is irrelevant to the distinction.

The standard confusion, at least when innocent, goes like this:

X: Do you believe in God?
Y: No.
X: Then you're an atheist.
Y: If you say so.
X: Then you take the position that "God simply doesn't exist."
Y: That's not what I said.
X: But you said you were an atheist!
Y: I said I did not believe in a God. That's not the same thing as claiming "there is no God."

The issue here is basic logic: the difference between ~BX and B~X (~ being the logical sign of negation, B being belief, and G being the God claim). Atheists as a whole are defined by ~BX: being without god beliefs. Some atheists take the B~X position, but these are rare, and usually exaggerated by theist apologists because it makes things easier on them.

Some people, however, mix up the two statements, treat one as if it were like the other. They aren't. They don't even really have the same object that they are describing (B~X is a claim about the contents of existence, while ~BX is a claim about the claimer only)
5.26.2008 11:06am
William Oliver (mail) (www):
“It always makes me laugh that white Christians captured Africans, forcibly carried them to America, sold them as slaves, forced them to work in horrible conditions, beat them, tortured them, and treated them like nothing more than property, made it illegal to teach them to read, and taught them Christianity because the bible says slaves should obey their masters... and the Africans actually abandoned their native religions and accepted the white religion, prayed to a white god, and passed it down to their children. Now African Americans are some of the most devout Christians in America! Actually praying to white Jesus as their god. Truly the last scar of slavery... I don't see how any self-respecting African American can be a Christian of any sort. It's embarrassing to even see it second hand.”

That’s because you get your knowledge of history from evangelical atheist tracts, apparently. Had you read any actual history, you would know that the only significant opposition to slavery in the ancient, medieval, and modern worlds derived from Christian action.

You would know, for instance, that slavery was an accepted part of that “objective morality” you atheists are so fond of in the ancient world, both in Europe and in Africa. You would know that it was not a white or Christian invention. You would know that the “advanced” pagans who found slavery to be acceptable as part of that “objective rational morality” were de facto atheists who you so admire. The primary argument against first and second generation Christianity was that it was a primitive belief that brought back the concept of “real” divinity – the ruling class of first century Rome had reduced the pantheon to metaphor. That’s why the early apologists argued in terms of philosophy rather than in terms of the strengths of gods.

As with any culturally accepted norm that had been in place for multiple millennia, the movement away from slavery was not smooth.
Christians both accepted slavery and opposed it. But the bottom line is that essentially *all* substantive opposition to it, and the increasing acceptance of abolition derived from Christianity.

You would know that in contrast to the atheist/pagan support of slavery, the earliest opposition to slavery in the West derived from Christianity, which might be expected if you remembered that most early Christians were of the servant class. You would remember that one of the first precepts of Christianity is that God does not recognize the distinction between free and slave even if the state does. You would remember that the early church first used churches to protect escaped slaves as early as 541, banned the use of new slaves in the Church in 625, defined the slave trade as homicide in 922, supported the right of slaves to marry against the wishes of their owners (Pope Adrian I) followed by St. Tomas Aquinas.

You would remember that Pius II condemned the slave trade by the Spanish – to the point that the King of Spain threatened any priest in Spain who read the Papal announcement with death. You would know that St. John Chrysostum wrote in the late 300s that “Slavery is the fruit of covetousness, of extravagance, of insatiable greediness" Other Popes condemning slavery included Paul III, Gregory XI, Innocent XI, Benedict XIV, and Pius VII.

It was, of course, Christianity, that promulgated the idea that individuals have God-given rights than can be suppressed but not removed by the state, and that the right to liberty derives from the relationship between man and God. Here’s a homework question for you. Who first wrote of “government of the people, by the people and for the people?” What was it based on?

Even during the secular French Revolution, it was a priest who instigated the abolition of slavery in the French colonies. In 1839, Pope Gregory condemned slavery in all its forms ex cathedra.

You would remember that virtually all of the abolition movements were religiously based, and that Harriet Beecher Stowe called upon the history of Christian opposition to slavery in her commentary on Uncle Tom’s Cabin.

You would also know that in terms of modern slavery, it’s primarily atheistic societies who have reinstituted slavery in the form of forced labor camps and involuntary servitude.

But, of course, if you only get your history from antichristian evangelical atheist propaganda, maybe you don’t.

"Of course, I have a theory that religiosity is directly proportional to the amount of melanin in the skin."

No doubt you do.
5.26.2008 12:13pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"The standard confusion, at least when innocent, goes like this:... ...Some atheists take the B~X position, but these are rare, and usually exaggerated by theist apologists because it makes things easier on them. "

Not really. That is not what the Dawkins and Hitchens of the world are saying. It may be your position, and that's fine. But the evangelical atheists putting out their vitriolic antichristian propaganda are not nearly as equivocal as you claim.
5.26.2008 12:16pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
Yes, many if not most abolitionists were christians. But most if not ALL slave holders were also christians. Both used christianity in support of their positions on slavery. So it evens out. And of course abolitionists called upon the bible and christian theology/history to encourage support for banning slavery. Just like the slave holders called upon it to support slavery. In fact, there are only two reasons the african slaves were taugh christianity and encouraged to convert. First, they would be better slaves, turn the other cheek and accept their place in life (per the teachings of Christ). Second, the white Christian slave holders found the Africans' traditional religions to be pagan and wanted to "do them a favor" by giving them a better, less pathetic religion.

I won't even bother getting in to the "Curse of Ham" so many white Christian slaveholders cited to support enslavement and mistreatment of the black slaves. I'll also bypass the fact that the vast majority of abolitionists hated blacks too, and wanted them to be sent back to Africa. The notion of them being freed and living here among white people was not an option for most abolitionists.
5.26.2008 12:59pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"Not really. That is not what the Dawkins and Hitchens of the world are saying. It may be your position, and that's fine. But the evangelical atheists putting out their vitriolic antichristian propaganda are not nearly as equivocal as you claim."

I'm afraid you are mistaken. If you take a look at Dawkins' "The God Delusion", pg 158 he states "God almost certainly does not exist. This is the main conclusion of the book so far." The title of the chapter is "Why there is almost certainly no god" so I don't think it's fair to equate an absolute stance on the existence of god to Dawkins.
5.26.2008 1:24pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"Yes, many if not most abolitionists were christians. But most if not ALL slave holders were also christians. Both used christianity in support of their positions on slavery. So it evens out."

No. It doesn't even out. One side won. That makes it not even.
5.26.2008 1:39pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"The title of the chapter is "Why there is almost certainly no god" so I don't think it's fair to equate an absolute stance on the existence of god to Dawkins."

Heh. OK, I can play the parsing game, too. Dawkins doesn't take completely absolutist stance. He takes an "almost" completely absolutist stance.
5.26.2008 1:40pm
Doc Rampage (mail) (www):
BruceM: "But most if not ALL slave holders were also christians." This is false. The large majority of slave holders were in Asia and Africa which were not Christian areas. Even in the United States, the Southern states were originally largely considered the less devoutly Christian portion of the country. The churches in the North are all old, the churches in the South are all new.

But you are just ignoring William's point. Yes, many Christians were involved in slavery, but slavery was the accepted norm by everybody in those days --except for some Christians. It is ridiculous to blame Christianity for what _everyone_ did and only Christians objected to. This is like blaming social conservatism for no-fault divorce on the grounds that so many social conservatives get divorced. Yes, social conservatives get divorced, but so does everyone else, and social conservatives are the only ones who are objecting to it.
5.26.2008 1:46pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"I'll also bypass the fact that the vast majority of abolitionists hated blacks too, and wanted them to be sent back to Africa. The notion of them being freed and living here among white people was not an option for most abolitionists."

Well, no you didn't. But you should have, since some of the most impressive racism of the 19th cna 20th century comes from atheists. Care to quote Che to me?

But most important, you are so eager to mischaracterize history that you mischaracterize the entire abolitionist movement. In fact, "most" abolitionists did not believe that having freed slaves living in America was not an option.

More important, you insist that what has clearly become the dominant Christian position, over millenia of stuggle, simply didn't become the dominant Christian position because of the dialogue within the Christian community based on Christian principles.

If you want completely unrepentant racism and slavery, look to atheist socities. If you want growth towards acceptance and the abolition of slavery, however stumbling, look to Christian ones.
5.26.2008 1:46pm
theobromophile (www):
BruceM,

More later, but I will say that I'm considering printing out your reply and using it for my LSAT class to demonstrate logical fallacies. It's mind-boggling, really. You're very good at arguing one thing, seeing a trump card reply, then changing your stance (via the apparent meaning of the words).

I'll go through it and straighten everything out.

Doc Rampage,

You're right re: the last point. IIRC, American slavery was the first time that slavery was designated by race and not by, say, membership in a conquered territory.
5.26.2008 1:51pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
Doc Rampage: I was talking about american slaveholders of african slaves. Sure there were (and still are) slaves being held by all kinds of people.

thebromophile: why don't you actually point out my alleged fallacies rather than just accuse me of being wrong. How have I changed my stance on anything? I made my reply about Tolkien and Lewis a little more specific, but that's it, and it's not a fallacy.

At the end of the day I've said something politically incorrect about african americans and christianity. I fully expected to get flamed for it, and I don't mind. I'll defend and stand by my comments, just like always. And if I'm proved to be wrong, I'll concede it. Flaming me without saying why I'm in error will get you points since I've said things that are politically incorrect; as such I'm presumed to be wrong. I know that's how it works. But you'll have to do better if you actually want to make any points.
5.26.2008 4:02pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
It is ridiculous to blame Christianity for what _everyone_ did and only Christians objected to.

I agree. You're ascribing interpretations to my statements that are inaccurate and uncalled for. I never blamed Christianity for slavery, I only noted that (American, white, southern) slave holders used Christianity/the bible to support it. Abolitionists likewise used the Christianity/the bible to oppose it. Who was it who said the bible and/or Christianity provides a moral base? If a religion can be used to both support and oppose something like slavery, it most certainly does NOT provide any moral guidance whatsoever.
5.26.2008 4:51pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"Heh. OK, I can play the parsing game, too. Dawkins doesn't take completely absolutist stance. He takes an "almost" completely absolutist stance."

And that is what makes all of the difference. The evidence for the existence of god is not split half way. It really is nowhere close considering how far the modern evolutionary synthesis has come since Darwin. Abiogenesis is indeed proving to be a tough nut to crack and we might not ever know the exact details, but we do know that self organizing replicators would immediately facilitate a selection process, and I think the most important aspect of all of this is that positing a deity at the beginning answers nothing at all, because you then have to explain where that deity came from. Assigning the probability of an event occurring and assessing the alternatives is what Dawkins uses to come to that conclusion, and I think his conclusion is clear considering the data.
5.26.2008 4:58pm
theobromophile (www):
As I said, I would get to it later.

I made my reply about Tolkien and Lewis a little more specific, but that's it, and it's not a fallacy.

You're as disingenous as they come, BruceM. You didn't "make it more specific;" you said that I was flat-out wrong, and, when provided with evidence to the contrary, changed your definition of "Christianity" to mean... um... something Christian? Sorry.

This is like fighting with a five-year-old, but here goes:

I was thinking more specifically about Lewis joining the Church of England; it's been a while since i've read anything about (or by) tolkien or lewis, but I recalled Tolkien disapproved of Lewis joining the CoE. Tokein himself was a Catholic. If my comment implied tolkien was an atheist or anti-religion (based on the tone of my comments in this thread) that's not what I meant.

That's not what you said, nor what you meant. With False Dichotomy #2531 of the Day, you are saying that there are two options for Tolkien: atheism or converting Lewis, not just to Christianity, but to his own denomination. Sorry. That dichotomy is about as valid as your faith/evidence one (wherein, according to you, no belief in the world can be supported by a combination of faith and evidence; it's either all unsubstantiated faith, or totally evidence-based). Ridiculous.

Face it: Tolkien won over the intellect of C.S. Lewis. He converted him from atheism to Christianity not because of fear, a desire to have a mutual opiate for their minds, or the like, but because of reason. That was my point - the very point you have been dodging all along. It was a direct reply to your unfounded assertion that religion is anti-reason.
But let's get down to the heart of the matter - are you actually claiming the bible (or even just the New Testament) is not internally inconsistant?

Point out an inconsistency. Just one. Please.

At the end of the day, though, I have no doubt that sincerely devout, fundamental, most-important-thing-in-life religiousity is a quality of stupid, poor, uneducated, and ignorant people.

Wow. Just wow. Do you not get out much, or is your anti-religion hatred so strong that your religious friends dare not say anything to you?

I can't help but wonder what you think of Orthodox Jews. Educated, intelligent, very religious... must just blow your mind.

Why don't religious people have some minimal burden to show, even by a preponderance of the evidence, that the religion they've picked is the right one? I have no respect for your decision to be a Christian if it just happens that your parents had the same religion and you've never spent a day in your life considering the alternatives. No respect at all. In fact, you've turned your particular religion into a genetic condition, passed down from parent to child

Me specifically, dahlin? I've spent the past 10-15 years of my life ignoring the religion in which I was raised (by very devout parents, who met at a Jesuit institution) and calling myself an atheist. Nevertheless, I still learn about religion, read the Bible, read the works of brilliant apologists, and think about the implications and intellectual challenges to faith and religion.

On your reading list, in addition to Lewis, try Lee Strobel. Hard-headed Chicago reporter, atheist to the core, went on a mission to expose religion for the b.s. he thought it was, and ended up a Christian apologist at the end of it.

Ironically, religion keeps these people trapped in their horrible positions moreso than any other factor.

Do you care, Mr. Hard-Nosed, Fact-Based Atheist, to back this up? You would think that, in an academy dominated by atheists, non-believers, and liberals of all sorts, the modern university community could surely demonstrate a link between religiousity and misery, if such a link exists. Oh, wait, the point of this thread is that such a link does not exist, even when you control for education, income, age, etc. Whoops.

Why is it that Alcoholics Anonymous asks the people there - those who have messed up their own lives in horrible ways, have lost jobs, gotten DUIs, gotten into drugs, alientated their families - to accept God? Check it out - it's the second step.

Why was Ashley Smith able to turn Brian Nichols - surely, a person trapped in a horrible position, a prisoner of his own daemons - into a person capable of surrendering quietly to the police? Christianity, maybe?

Why is it that jail cell blocks, wherein people have converted to Christianity, have the least violence?

Social science has indicated that, up to a certain point (roughly $50,000/year), increased wealth will make you happier. Beyond that, there is little correlation between increased income and happiness. Why, if the poor, uneducated, miserable wretches are all Christian, are they so happy?

To put it another way, borrowing from my Evangelical friend (who, incidentally, graduated summa from my law school), something can be a tremendous relief, a means to ease a burden, and still be true. The fact that Christianity may provide comfort and happiness does not make it less likely to be true.

Final thought for now: you dodged the issue of "atheism" by giving it a tortured meaning. I never said that atheism declares that the universe must have begun in a certain way, just that ONE of those ways is not how it happened. Atheism declares that there is no God. You are not obligated to prove how the universe works, why it is here, why we would ask why if there is no answer, etc.. You are, however, required to demonstate that there is no God, which is the extent and the heart of the claim of atheism. Otherwise, you're an agnostic.
5.26.2008 5:22pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):

"Point out an inconsistency. Just one. Please."
Here is one:
Matthew 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

Luke 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."
Mount? No mount? You tell me!
Better yet, go here:
Thomas Paine takes care of the argument about biblical inconsistency for us.

"Final thought for now: you dodged the issue of "atheism" by giving it a tortured meaning. I never said that atheism declares that the universe must have begun in a certain way, just that ONE of those ways is not how it happened. Atheism declares that there is no God. You are not obligated to prove how the universe works, why it is here, why we would ask why if there is no answer, etc.. You are, however, required to demonstate that there is no God, which is the extent and the heart of the claim of atheism. Otherwise, you're an agnostic."
Unfortunately one can never demonstrate the nonexistence of anything, because new evidence can always come along to replace it. So this places the onus directly on the theist. Of course, depending on the context of the situation, the terms atheist and agnostic can be used. If one is engaged in deep philosophical discourse then s/he might be more inclined to use the term agnostic because it holds true to the epistemological consideration of making any definitive statement (besides tautological statements of course).
5.26.2008 7:24pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
Seems the link above didn't work.
If you check out www.gutenborg.org pg 64 of Thomas Paines "The Age of Reason" is surely adequate.
5.26.2008 7:29pm
gasman (mail):
Q. What do you call a catholic who does not believe in god?
A. A catholic

Second, and much more important, the studies do not in fact find even a correlation between happiness and religious belief. What they show is a correlation between happiness and attendance at religious services.


As a non-believer in a community of believers (presumptively believers, though there are a non-trivial number of others like me in our church) I find that but for a few awkward situations such as being asked to lead with an extemporaneous prayer, that participation in the community is generally a positive thing.
In this case were I polled, I would likely contribute to the general appearance of happiness of the religious group, without the religiosity having any bearing; indeed, quite in spite of any religiosity.
5.26.2008 7:49pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"If a religion can be used to both support and oppose something like slavery, it most certainly does NOT provide any moral guidance whatsoever."

Well, no. You are not measuring the religion, you are measuring the ability of people to willingly misinterpret something. It's no different than the law. Your claim is that any law that can be interpreted in two different ways by lawyers paid to do so is a meaningless law? Then all laws are also meaningless.

But we know they are not. Some laws, even when well written and clear to any reasonable person, will be argued in a different manner for someone at a rate of $450 an hour. That doesn't invalidate the law; it says something about the lawyer. The same thing is true of people who do the same thing with religion.

The fact that some people are wrong does not make the truth they miss is any less true.
5.26.2008 8:51pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"And that is what makes all of the difference. "

Yes. All the difference between an airplane crashing into a mountain at 650 miles per hour and one crashing into a mountain at 649 miles per hour. The distinction may be important to you, but it's not all that important to the pilot.
5.26.2008 8:54pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"In this case were I polled, I would likely contribute to the general appearance of happiness of the religious group, without the religiosity having any bearing; indeed, quite in spite of any religiosity."

The claim that these results hold up only for attendance at religious services is likely untrue, though frequently repeated. At least with respect to crime, measuring religiosity by means other than church attendance works better. In one study, rather than use church attendance, the authors used an index comprised of private prayer, Bible study, discussing faith in god, talk about religion with others, and trying to convert someone to faith in God.

The authors found "The findings show that religiosity rather than church attendance is significantly related to crime, and the former remains a significant predictor even it is analyzed simultaneously with the strongest predictor. ...In conclusion, the present study does not support the conditions placed on the relation between religion and delinquency, including the arguments that the relation is only significant: (a) for minor offenses,(b) as long as the real predictors are not considered in the analysis, or
(c) in “moral communities.” Nor does this study find church attendance to be an adequate measure of religion’s influence on crime observed in the literature." (Benda, BB, and Corwyn,RF. Are the Effects of Religion on Crime
Mediated, Moderated, and Misrepresented by Inappropriate Measures? Journal of Social Service Research, Vol. 27(3) 2001
5.26.2008 9:17pm
BruceM (mail) (www):
William, The new testament clearly states that Slaves should honor and obey their masters. If that doesn't support slavery, without any "misinterpretation" I don't know what does. It makes me sick to hear religious people ignore clear, plain language in their respective religious books by saying it is "misinterpreted" when one says it means what it says. If you don't like what the bible has to say, good! I don't blame you. Find another religion more compatable with your sense of morality.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.”
—Ephesians 6:5-6.

Just one such example. But I'm sure you'll say that "as you would Christ" or "from the heart" somehow makes this mean something entirely different, hehe... typical. Even if it DOES have two interpretations, who the hell are you to say the one that is anti-slavery and thus conforms to your sense of morality is the right one? Are you god? Are you the one who wrote that?

The plain meaning of "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" is more than enough to give this passage a reasonable interpreation in support of slavery and in support of slaves obeying their masters. The plain meaning should control over insipid, twisted meanings contrary thereto made by applying all sorts of half-assed decoded "in Christ" and "body of Christ" and "heart of Christ" and "slaves of Christ" secret messages. And to have the nerve to blame negative consequences on the people who read it differently than you is a huge exercise in egotism.
5.26.2008 9:22pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"Here is one:
Matthew 5:1,2: ...

Luke 6:17,20: ..."

Potato, potahto. Evangelical atheists like to pretend that all Christians are fundamentalists, so they can play trivial prooftexting games. In fact, most are not.

If you are really interested in this, rather than just wanting to play word games, I would suggest Dominic Crossan's "The Birth of Christianity: Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus 1998. In it he goes into great lengths about studies on oral tradition. In such a tradition, the speakers have certain anchors about which they have little variation, and fill in the spaces with areas of greater variation.

Thus, for instance, it is important to an evangelical atheist who wants to play prooftexting fundamentalist games to obsess bout the exact incline of the land at the time of teaching. To a Christian, the importance is the teaching.

More important, of course, is the fact that for most Christians, scripture is only one of multiple sources of authority. Evangelical atheists seem to forget that Christians did quite will without a canon for many years, and instead relied on other sources of authority. Atheists can amuse themselves for hours finding trivial issues with the scripture that may or may not represent true trivial differences. But they remain trivial when compared to the message therein.
5.26.2008 9:56pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"Yes. All the difference between an airplane crashing into a mountain at 650 miles per hour and one crashing into a mountain at 649 miles per hour. The distinction may be important to you, but it's not all that important to the pilot."

Far from it. There is a huge distinction between 100% and 99.9% certainty. Trying to equate a quantitative measurement with a statistical measurement is really off the mark. Again, science does not allow any apodictic statements about any event, so your comparison fails.
5.26.2008 10:11pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"William, The new testament clearly states that Slaves should honor and obey their masters. If that doesn't support slavery, without any "misinterpretation" I don't know what does."

Then you don't know what does.

There are three things to remember about the Paul. The first and most important is that he believed that the Christ would return within a few years. Thus, he believed that most social constructs were irrelevant, since they would be dispensed with shortly. Accordingly, he was more concerned with the interpersonal relationships than social revolution.

Thus, he states that to God, there is no such thing as a slave or freeman, and that if both the slave and the slaveholder are Christians, then the relationship between them as Christians trumps any social convention. That was the whole point of his letter to Philemon, where the returns the escaped Christian slave Onesimus to his Christian convert owner, Philemon:

"I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do will be spontaneous and not forced. Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back for good— no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."

He does not bother with the social construct of slavery just as he does not bother with the social construct of marriage. With marriage, he states that it would probably be better not to marry at all, but if you must, then that's OK. Just as he does not believe that marriage is of particular value to a group that will be transcending earthly existence shortly, he does not believe that the social construct of slavery is worth bothering about. Instead, the *personal* transformation of Christianity makes the social construct irrelevant.

Second, he continues the teachings of Jesus in concentrating on establishing broad changes by means of individual transformation rather than social revolution. Jesus' message was one largely of personal transformation accompanied by social conformity. He did not advocate revolution against Rome, he did not advocate breaking with the Jewish faith (it should be remembered that it was Judaism that ejected Christianity from the synagogue), and while he argued for reform of the Jewish establishment, he did not refuse their authority.

The idea that social transformation should be accomplished through individual transformation rather than revolution is not unique to Christianity. One of the more famous analogues is the Transcendental Meditation so-called "Maharishi Effect."

The cumulative result of such individual transformation would intuitively be evolutionary, as was the case with slavery. Of course slaves should honor their masters. Their goal was to convert them and change the fundamental dynamic of the relationship.

Third, the concentration on individual transformation rather than social revolution, and working on an evolutionary transformation than a revolutionary one is a recognition of the fact that Paul's ministry was to the social underclass, and Jesus' ministry was to an occupied underclass. A religion that preached social revolution would only end up with adherents lining the roads of Rome in the same manner as the followers of Spartacus. Had Jesus' message been revolutionary, it would have ended no differently than did the revolution of 60 AD. No social program that guaranteed extermination would succeed, however demanding you are of purity 2000 years later. Instead, He established a program that would succeed and did, eventually, abolish slavery -- though you stubbornly refuse to notice its abolition.

Of course Paul was wrong in his timeline, but this idea that he was a supporter of slavery requires a superficial and incomplete comprehension of the scripture and of the social situation of first century Rome.
5.26.2008 10:25pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"Far from it. There is a huge distinction between 100% and 99.9% certainty."

OK, I'll keep playing. Dawkins is "almost" certain that there is no god like I'm "almost" certain that jumping out of an airplane at 20000 feet without a parachute will be lethal. That 0.00000001% probability makes *all* the difference.
5.26.2008 10:30pm
theobromophile (www):
William Oliver,

There is a huge problem with your arguments. Huge. Massive. Insurmountable.

They are based on the entire text, not just passages that are ripped out at random. They are then read in light of the time in which they were written. I mean, if we took that attitude towards, say, the Constitution, chaos would ensue! Madness! People would have to read the entire document to find its structure and meaning, without attributing any meaning they so desire, willy-nilly!

Madness, I tell you!

More later. I have two different versions of the Bible at home; I'm going to grab those to look up the Paul, Luke, and Ephesians texts.
5.26.2008 10:50pm
theobromophile (www):
First, Ephesians and slavery.

My New American Standard gives the following translation for Ephesians 6:1-6:9:

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),
So that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on earth.
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;
not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
Will good will render service as to the Lord, and not to men,
knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.


My explanatory note for 6:1 (which, logically, applies anywhere similar language is seen) states that "obedience to parents is part of the child's obligation to Christ whether nor the parents are believers. See the example of Christ in Luke 2:51 and Heb. 5:8."

My New International Version gives the same passage as:

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother - which is the first commandment with a promise - "that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth."
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is upon you, but like salves, of Chrsit, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is not favoritism with Him.


First of all, that's a far cry from the passage quoted above. In context, it does make a great deal more sense.

I suggest that you read Ephesians 5:22 onwards. That is what one pastor would read on what he calls "Nudge Day." When he would read the part about wives obeying their husbands, the husbands would nudge their wives - "Honey, hear that?" He would then continue to the next section, in which husbands were commanded to treat their wives as they would their own flesh, and to love their wives as Christ loved his Church and gave himself up for her. (Note: he died for his Church. Interesting idea from Paul - husbands ought to be prepared to die for their wives.) The wives would then nudge their husbands.

The section on slavery has the same structure. You can quote, arbitrarily, the one section that commands the person of lesser social status to obey the person of higher social status and look at it as racism, misogyny, etc., but you have to skip over the very next section, which gives a reciprocal command to the person of higher station.

As I understand it, part of the command of slaves to obey their masters was because Christians are known by their works and their love. It does not bode well to the Church to have Christians who are hateful, mean-spirited, and the like (as many of the complaints against religion on this thread demonstrate). Telling slaves to obey their masters is a) common sense (not like disobedience gets you anywhere), b) good for the church, c) according to the text, rewarded in Heaven, and d) the reciprocal obligation of the master to treat his slave with respect, fear, and sincerity of heart, just as he would Christ.
5.27.2008 12:06am
theobromophile (www):
Matthew 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

Luke 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

NIV says "mountainside" in Matthew 1.
New Am. Standard says "mountain" in the same.

Now, onto Luke.

NAS: Luke 6:12 onwards,
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spend the night praying to God. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.


6:17 onwards
He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples were there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon, who had come to hera him and to be healed of their diseases.


First of all, if we are to accept that those were the same sermons (which they are likely not, given that they are very different: Luke is more of a general commandment on how to live a Christian life, whereas Matthew sets specific guidelines regarding divorce, murder, the law of Moses, etc.), they are not necessarily contradictory. Both have Jesus at the foot of a mountain.

Again, if you read the following sermon, it's pretty apparent that they are different sermons. What, do you think the guy gave only one talk in his whole life?

My explanatory note to Luke 6:17-26 says, "This may be Luke's account of the same occasion and teaching recorded in Matthew 5-7 (the Sermon on the Mount) or it may simply be similar teaching given on a different occasion."

No necessary contradiction. There is a reasonable belief that it could have been two separate occaisions, and, even if not, the translations I have given allow consistency of location (both on a mountain; one has Jesus descending to a "level place," perhaps on the mountain, while the other has him on a mountain, definitively).
5.27.2008 12:25am
theobromophile (www):
I should add that the New International Version also gives "He went down with them and stood in a level place," for Luke 6:17. (NAS is slightly different: "Jesus came down with them and stood on a level place....")

Which translation gives "plain" in that passage?
5.27.2008 12:28am
theobromophile (www):
BruceM,

If you are claiming that Southerners used the Bible to support slavery, you must realise that they used it improperly. I can use the Constitution to support my belief that the federal government has an obligation to provide universal health care (via the Preamble), or I can use it to argue that it is unconstitutional for it to do so (limited, enumerated powers in Art. I, Sec. 8 do not cover such a scheme). Does that mean that the Constitution does not organise a system of government? Hardly.

Why place such a ridiculous constraint on any other document? Your rationale is that if anything can ever be used, however illogically, to support more than one position, it does not set up a system of laws regarding that particular issue.
5.27.2008 12:33am
BruceM (mail) (www):
Sounds like the muslims who contend the Koran is all about peace. The parts where it says to kill the infidels and wage war on so and so, chop off the hands and feet of so and so, stone to death these and those... those are all misinterpreted and taken out of context. It really means love everyone and bring no harm to thy fellow man.

Nobody actually buys that crap. Nor should they. I sure know Christians don't.

And now I'm hearing that to get caught up in the accuracy of what the Word of God means is "missing the point." Really? Then what the hell is religion for? Why go to Bible study? Why go to church and send your kids to sunday school? Why even bother to read a bible if its meaning doesn't really matter? These mathetmatical analogies are the dumbest thing I've ever had thrown at me in a theological debate. When they calculated the trajectories for landing the lunar module on the moon, they had to use pi to the 50th digit as I recall. But trying to figure out what a bible passage means - whether it is pro slavery or anti-slavery - is like arguing over whether an airplane crashed at 649mph or 650mhp?

I hereby forfeit further participation in this debate. There's no point. For the first time I've encountered religious people who don't care about what their God says or means. No vested interest in the actual dogma of their religion. It's like having a political debate over democrat vs republican with a person who doesn't know what his party's platform is, and doesn't even care. All religious debates I've had begin with the notion that one's religion actually means something to them. I don't know how to debate religion against someone who simply says "I'm religious, my religion is correct, but I don't care what it says and I'll believe whatever I want." That's truly a first for me.
5.27.2008 12:52am
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"OK, I'll keep playing. Dawkins is "almost" certain that there is no god like I'm "almost" certain that jumping out of an airplane at 20000 feet without a parachute will be lethal. That 0.00000001% probability makes *all* the difference."

So the fact that Dawkins would certainly change his position regarding the existence in the light of new evidence means nothing? That is why I'm stressing the point. 100% certainty would imply a total lack of elasticity in the position.
5.27.2008 12:56am
theobromophile (www):
Sounds like the muslims who contend the Koran is all about peace. The parts where it says to kill the infidels and wage war on so and so, chop off the hands and feet of so and so, stone to death these and those... those are all misinterpreted and taken out of context. It really means love everyone and bring no harm to thy fellow man.

Awww... c'mon Bruce, you know you can do better than that! Rally back! Don't let a little bit of context throw you off your game!

I quoted the lines directly before and after the ones you cited. The fact that they demolish your argument is your own problem - find an argument that at least requires me to look at a different passage.
5.27.2008 2:04am
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"So the fact that Dawkins would certainly change his position regarding the existence in the light of new evidence means nothing? That is why I'm stressing the point. 100% certainty would imply a total lack of elasticity in the position."

It's not a "fact." Dawkins has set up false criteria. That's rather the point. Dawkins will believe in God as long as God plays by his rules and allows Dawkins to tell God what to do, e.g. become less than God and follow the rules of man.

Dawkins' puts on red glasses then declares:

"I don't believe in blue. All there is is red. If you want to convince me, I have to see blue with my own eyes. "

"But there is blue. Take off your glasses."

"No, you have to show me blue in exactly the way I want to see it. "

"But you can't see blue until you take off your glasses!"

"Those are my rules. And unless you follow my rules, I cannot believe there is blue ... but I'm always willing to be convinced!"
5.27.2008 8:05am
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"And now I'm hearing that to get caught up in the accuracy of what the Word of God means is "missing the point." Really? Then what the hell is religion for? Why go to Bible study? Why go to church and send your kids to sunday school? Why even bother to read a bible if its meaning doesn't really matter?"

Well, I'm quite shocked that a Bible scholar like you is just now realizing that most Christians are not caught up in literalism, but instead focus on the message of the Christ. I'm glad that you've had that revelation. Now, perhaps, if you were to truly listen to the *message* of Christianity, rather than focusing on the grammar of a given translation, you might get a better understanding.

What is religion for? It's purpose is to bring people closer to God, and to allow us to live the will of God in our lives.

Why go to sunday school? Why go to church? In order to become better at communion with God through the support and fellowship of the community of Christ. Christianity has always been a religion focused on the family of believers. Our comfort, support, and focus is on that family; when we use the terms "brother" and "sister," we really mean it. One of the great failings of liberal European Christianity is that they have lost much of that, and one of the strengths of the evagelical revival is that they have remembered it.

You are wrong in your claim that it doesn't matter. The personal transformation of Christianity can be a profound one, that changes how you view yourself, how you view your fellow men and women, and how you view the world.

You claim that Christianity doesn't make a difference. However, of the great evils you have mentioned, it is Christianity that changed them. All of your claims that Christianity supports slavery ignores that it was Christianity that defeated it -- it only exists today in isolated places, either Islamic or Atheistic, that explicitly suppress Christianity. That's no accident.

You claim that Christianity has no inherent focus or power, yet it went from being a cult among slaves to being the dominant force of the Western world, and is the fastest growing religion in the developing world.

If it did not make a difference, and if the personal transformative power of Christianity did not have an important social implication, then Moslem and Atheistic countries around the globe would not be so afraid of the message that they must kill people to keep the Word from spreading. But no. Go to China and preach the Gospel freely, and you will be imprisoned or killed. Go to North Korea and preach the Gospel freely, and you will be imprisoned or killed. Go do Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Egypt, etc., and preach the Gospel freely and you will be imprisoned or killed.

These atheists and Moslems do not fear an impotent, meaningless message. They fear the voice of God.
5.27.2008 8:20am
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"No vested interest in the actual dogma of their religion. It's like having a political debate over democrat vs republican with a person who doesn't know what his party's platform is, and doesn't even care. All religious debates I've had begin with the notion that one's religion actually means something to them. I don't know how to debate religion against someone who simply says "I'm religious, my religion is correct, but I don't care what it says and I'll believe whatever I want." That's truly a first for me."

You are willingly blind. I can understand your frustration that a Christian will not allow an Atheist to define his Christianity. It really does make your arguments fatuous, and that's always a difficult realization. It may be a first for you, but that merely means you have been choosing your opponents for your convenience. Just as the cheetah realizes that some of those herbivores have horns and it's best to stick with the wounded and infant, the evangelical atheist usually finds the tables turned when dealing with the mature Christian.
5.27.2008 8:31am
Gaius Marius:
I'm sure the point has been made before but it all depends on how one defines happiness. For a Christian, happiness should not be equated with material gain(s). In fact, it is stated in the New Testament that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a sewing needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. A true Christian should be happiest when he is in close commune with his Christ and at the prospect of eternal life with his Christ and lost loved ones.
5.27.2008 9:49am
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"It's not a "fact." Dawkins has set up false criteria. That's rather the point. Dawkins will believe in God as long as God plays by his rules and allows Dawkins to tell God what to do, e.g. become less than God and follow the rules of man. "

Read some of Dawkins' books first and then come talk to me, because you are setting up straw men and you probably don't even realize it. And of course, as the great Carl Sagan put it "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". This holds true REGARDLESS of where the claim originated.

"You claim that Christianity doesn't make a difference. However, of the great evils you have mentioned, it is Christianity that changed them. All of your claims that Christianity supports slavery ignores that it was Christianity that defeated it -- it only exists today in isolated places, either Islamic or Atheistic, that explicitly suppress Christianity. That's no accident. "

Atheistic? Where?

Let me just state my position (and one that I'm nearly certain Dawkins holds as well):

The problem stems from unyielding ideology. All ideologies are produced by people. Religion is an ideology. Religion is man-made. Morality doesn't stem from religion. We don't need 2000+ year old stories to give us moral guidance.
And finally, Hitchens asks "Name one moral statement or action made by a theist, that couldn't have been made by a nonbeliever" and that's a pretty important question that I don't think has been answered to any sufficient degree.
5.27.2008 1:31pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"These atheists and Moslems do not fear an impotent, meaningless message. They fear the voice of God."

Where can I hear this voice of god? Show me where and I'll be first in line!
5.27.2008 1:35pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"Read some of Dawkins' books first and then come talk to me, because you are setting up straw men and you probably don't even realize it."

I have. The most amusing thing about Dawkins' books is how stunningly nonscientific they are. Dawkins argues against religion and then proposes an explicitly religious argument. His concept of "meme" as a metaphor with substance is of accord with the best medieval scholasticism. The holes in Dawkins' "science" are so huge you could write books about it.

In fact, a few have. I would suggest two by Aleister McGrath:

Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life

and

The Dawkins Delusion: Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Divine

"Atheistic? Where?"

China and North Korea come immediately to mind. The fact that it's called "forced labor" instead of "slavery" makes the duck no less a duck. And, of course, the atheistic paradise of the Soviet Union was pretty notorious for that.

"Where can I hear this voice of god? Show me where and I'll be first in line!"

It's not that hard, really. People have been hearing it for 2000 years. Walk into an evangelical church where the members state they are filled with the Spirit, and follow their instructions. Of course, the problem for you is that you must first believe, then hear. You will demand that you hear before you believe. It doesn't work that way, and you will remain deaf by your own choice.
5.27.2008 2:08pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"The problem stems from unyielding ideology. All ideologies are produced by people. Religion is an ideology. Religion is man-made. Morality doesn't stem from religion. We don't need 2000+ year old stories to give us moral guidance. "

Well, apparently you do, since the "morality" that you and Dawkins find so objectively true is a received Protestant morality. That's the most amusing thing about those who so blindly assert that morality is somehow so objectively obvious; they are so freaking parochial. Dawkins (and I assume you) assert somehow that the moralities of the ancient Romans, ancient Spartans, the legalists of the Middle Kingdoms, the Mongols, etc., etc., somehow are not objectively true moralities that they can achieve through atheistic ratiocination.

Instead, it is Protestant Christian morality that they see as atheistic and objective. As I wrote before, Dawkins, et al. don't complain that Christian morality is really wrong, they bitch because we aren't good enough conventional middle class Methodists, but without faith.

Dawkins has internalized a specific Christian morality, claimed that he doesn't need the Christianity, and plagairized it as his own by wrapping it in the patina of false science. His fundamentalist evangelical atheism is no different than what he pretends to oppose. That's why he has to resort to stridency and emotion-based attack -- when people look at the supposed substance of his claims, there's no "there" there.





And finally, Hitchens asks "Name one moral statement or action made by a theist, that couldn't have been made by a nonbeliever" and that's a pretty important question that I don't think has been answered to any sufficient degree.


Well, I could easily turn that around and ask you to name one (good) moral statement or action made by an atheist that wasn't first stated by a Christian. I don't have a problem with Hitchens and you adopting Christian morality as your own, but you might at least give credit where credit's due. Unless, of course, moral plagairism is, in fact, one of those peculiar atheistic moral virtues.
5.27.2008 2:20pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"I have. The most amusing thing about Dawkins' books is how stunningly nonscientific they are. Dawkins argues against religion and then proposes an explicitly religious argument. His concept of "meme" as a metaphor with substance is of accord with the best medieval scholasticism. The holes in Dawkins' "science" are so huge you could write books about it."

He's written more then the god delusion, and his contribution to evolutionary biology using the gene centered view of evolution is enormous. I'd love to see an actual criticism of his ideas instead of just saying that that there are vast holes in his science. And if you really would like to deny the value of memetics, then you have loads of individuals to answer to, considering just how useful the notion of memes has become. Dawkins and Mcgrath had a conversation that was videotaped so you should check that out. You can find it at richarddawkins.net

"China and North Korea come immediately to mind. The fact that it's called "forced labor" instead of "slavery" makes the duck no less a duck. And, of course, the atheistic paradise of the Soviet Union was pretty notorious for that."

I will repeat:
The problem stems from unyielding ideology. All ideologies are produced by people. Religion is an ideology. Religion is man-made. Morality doesn't stem from religion. We don't need 2000+ year old stories to give us moral guidance.

And It's important that I note that I would NEVER deny someone the option to worship whoever or whatever they want to. I don't agree with a lot of the stances that these atheist states have taken. China has been slowly shifting its view so it now actually recognizes the five major religions practiced by the Chinese people. I also don't think that it's fair to call the Soviet Union an Atheistic paradise. It might have lacked belief in a god, but there was without any doubt a real ideology that placed Stalin right in the center.

"It's not that hard, really. People have been hearing it for 2000 years. Walk into an evangelical church where the members state they are filled with the Spirit, and follow their instructions. Of course, the problem for you is that you must first believe, then hear."

You should read about the various agency detection mechanisms that could possibly explain the origins of religion. There are also many cognitive biases that shed a lot of light on the popularity of religious belief.
I was once a Christian, and I sincerely tried as hard as I could. All of the belief in the world couldn't make me hear voices that weren't there.
5.27.2008 2:56pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"Well, I could easily turn that around and ask you to name one (good) moral statement or action made by an atheist that wasn't first stated by a Christian. I don't have a problem with Hitchens and you adopting Christian morality as your own, but you might at least give credit where credit's due. Unless, of course, moral plagairism is, in fact, one of those peculiar atheistic moral virtues."

Sure, lets take reciprocity for example. Greek Philosophers were espousing this view before even the Tanakh was compiled, so in no way does Judaism (and certainly not Christianity) deserve the credit for the codification of the golden rule. And Confucianism, which is at least as old as Judaism codifies the Golden Rule as well. Just about every major theme from the bible stems from some form of plagiarism, stolen from myths previously scribed. I'm sure I don't need to provide you evidence of this.
5.27.2008 3:10pm
Duffy Pratt (mail):
The Yoga Sutras date back to 2000 B.C. Yoga is not a religion, and may be compatible with atheism. Its ethical principles are stated in the Yamas and Niyamas. These include "do no harm," "do not steal", "truthfulness", "purity and cleanliness", "non-attachment". These pre-date Christianity.

You stated:


Of course, the problem for you is that you must first believe, then hear. You will demand that you hear before you believe. It doesn't work that way, and you will remain deaf by your own choice.


I never have been able to figure out how to choose what I believe -- at least not at this level. It was always my problem with Descartes thought experiments. And I think that religious people have little sympathy for this. So I read Pascal's wager, for example, and on some level it makes sense to me. But can it make me believe something I simply don't believe? And the answer for me is "No." Nor can I simply decide to believe it. On matters like this, I want to say that what I believe is the foundation on which I am able to make other choices. But I can't simply decide to change that foundation. I'm not saying that that foundation is not subject to change, but for me at least the change is not a matter of free choice.

Also, I am never comfortable with the terms of these discussions. I'm not religious. Nor yet am I an athiest. I don't have any belief that God exists or that God does not exist. Nor yet am I an agnostic: its not that I haven't yet decided or made up my mind on the subject. Rather, I'd like to say that all of this sort of talk has no connection with my life. It has no meaning for me. And as I said before, even if I go through the motions (and I have several times), its not something I seem to be able to choose, and it continues to fail to connect.
5.27.2008 4:13pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"The Yoga Sutras date back to 2000 B.C. Yoga is not a religion, and may be compatible with atheism. "

Sorry. The ancient Yoga Sutras are explicitly religious, unless your particular view of atheism includes karma and reincarnation. You *certainly* can't use that as an example of atheism.
5.27.2008 4:27pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"Sorry. The ancient Yoga Sutras are explicitly religious, unless your particular view of atheism includes karma and reincarnation. You *certainly* can't use that as an example of atheism."

Why the apology? Atheistic or not, it moves the source of morality further away from Christianity.

"Rather, I'd like to say that all of this sort of talk has no connection with my life. It has no meaning for me. And as I said before, even if I go through the motions (and I have several times), its not something I seem to be able to choose, and it continues to fail to connect."

I wish I could say the same. Being brought up in a Christian household left me with few options. It wasn't until long after I had been confirmed in a roman catholic church that the possibility that Christianity wasn't at all necessary dawned on me. It always did fail to connect for me though, despite me going through the motions (although I was quite ardent about it when I did it). I guess some folks can choose, but others can't.
5.27.2008 4:50pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"Why the apology? Atheistic or not, it moves the source of morality further away from Christianity. "

Remember the challenge you were supposedly answering:

"Well, I could easily turn that around and ask you to name one (good) moral statement or action made by an atheist that wasn't first stated by a Christian."

Your answer to the challenge fails. Sorry about that.
5.27.2008 8:51pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"He's written more then the god delusion, and his contribution to evolutionary biology using the gene centered view of evolution is enormous. I'd love to see an actual criticism of his ideas instead of just saying that that there are vast holes in his science.

Heh. That's the standard answer when people point out Dawkins' pseudoscientific BS pretending to be science -- not *everything* he's said is BS. The fact that *everything* he's written is BS doesn't remove the smell from all the BS he's wrapping his "scientific" views in. The Emperor has no clothes. Indeed, he doesn't seem to have as many vast holes in his science if you ignore all the vast holes.

"And if you really would like to deny the value of memetics, then you have loads of individuals to answer to, considering just how useful the notion of memes has become. Dawkins and Mcgrath had a conversation that was videotaped so you should check that out. You can find it at richarddawkins.net"

Unfortunately for Dawkins, "usefulness" is not a measure of scientific validity. If a notion merely has to be "useful," then Christianity is golden. The most amusing thing about Dawkins is that he starts from a science base, and then jettisons it in order to engage in his evangelical atheistic fundamentalism.

And yes, I've seen the video. Have you read McGrath's books?

"Sure, lets take reciprocity for example. Greek Philosophers were espousing this view before even the Tanakh was compiled, so in no way does Judaism (and certainly not Christianity) deserve the credit for the codification of the golden rule. And Confucianism, which is at least as old as Judaism codifies the Golden Rule as well. Just about every major theme from the bible stems from some form of plagiarism, stolen from myths previously scribed. I'm sure I don't need to provide you evidence of this."

So your answer is "none," I take it.

I think you'll have a hard time arguing that Mosaic law derives from Greek philosophy or Confucianism, but sure, go for it. And, of course, your timing is a little off. The Tanakh was compiled around 450 BC, which is about the time of Socrates, but in fact the tenets of Mosaic law existed for centuries before that, well before the exile to Babylon in 586 BC. I think you will be hard pressed to really claim either that the classic Greek philosophers predated Mosaic ethics, and certainly you will be hard pressed to claim that Mosaic law is *derived* from it. So, which Greek philosopher, exactly, do you claim developed the Mosaic law?
And, certainly, you'll be hard put to show that the any of the pre-Socratic philosophers were atheists. And certainly Socrates was not.

Similarly, your choice of the time of the Great Assembly, rather than the actual time of the enunciation of the principles puts a bit of a kink in your claim that Confucious predates them. He didn't. Since Confucianism, particularly at the time you claim, included sacrifice, ancestor worship, and recognition of a diety, I think you would be hard pressed to claim that this is an atheistic position. Confucianism of 500 BC is not the Confucianism of 1000AD or 2000AD.

But, frankly, your claim that Mosaic law plagairized from Confucianism is laughable, and yes, I'll challenge you on showing this.

The bottom line, then is that you have not shown a single moral law proposed by atheists that has not previously been proposed by Christianity.

But thanks for playing.
5.27.2008 9:30pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"The fact that *everything* he's written is BS..."

should read

"he fact that *everything* he's written isn't BS..."

typo.
5.27.2008 9:31pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"Your answer to the challenge fails. Sorry about that."

That wasn't my response, you seemed to have missed my response (which includes Confucius, clearly an atheistic philosophy). Did you answer the initial challenge instead of spinning it around? Of course not, and the reason is obvious. Christianity brought no novel moral claims into the world. You are dodging the main point of my claim, that Christianity has no monopoly on moral truth.
5.27.2008 9:44pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"And It's important that I note that I would NEVER deny someone the option to worship whoever or whatever they want to. I don't agree with a lot of the stances that these atheist states have taken. China has been slowly shifting its view so it now actually recognizes the five major religions practiced by the Chinese people. I also don't think that it's fair to call the Soviet Union an Atheistic paradise. It might have lacked belief in a god, but there was without any doubt a real ideology that placed Stalin right in the center."

First, China's Potemkin religions do not represent any sort of movement. I am amazed that you can look at the repression in Tibet and the oppression of Christians in China and say there is any forward movement. Over 90% of Christians belong to illegal congregations are in constant threat of imprisonment, torture and death. China has the highest number of people imprisoned for their faith in Christ in the world.

You may not think it's "fair" to call the Soviet Union an Atheistic paradise. No, I guess not, it's an Atheist hell, as virtually all countries that encode atheism into their constitution seem to turn out.

Religion is no more an ideology than is Dawkins-ish evangelical atheism, and if you want to look at the true evil in the world today, look to these atheistic societies.
5.27.2008 9:49pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
And all of these different sources of the same set of virtues points to what? OH. Thats right. An innate sense of morality. We do not need Christianity, because we don't need any ideology to refer to for a moral compass. And your slandering of Dawkins still hasn't actually actually provided any actual attack on the content of his work.
5.27.2008 9:52pm
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"That wasn't my response, you seemed to have missed my response (which includes Confucius, clearly an atheistic philosophy). "

I did. Go back and read my reply. I address Confucianism explicitly.
5.27.2008 9:52pm
traveler496:
Cards-on-table dept: 1) I'm an atheist (or at least a strong agnostic) who admires observations such as the one by Dawkins that there shouldn't even be a word such as "atheist" for the same reason that there isn't a word "aalchemist" - I think the fact that the word atheist even exists is a measure of the marketing prowess of theists in establishing theism as somehow the assumed default. 2) I'm very ignorant of the Bible (most of what I think I know about it is secondhand, as will become evident very shortly) and of sacred texts generally.

That said, I can't resist poking at a thing or two I gather is in the Bible, because I'm honestly curious how the many people who are wise, intelligent, and Bible-believing swallow this stuff w/o choking on it.

Thing #1 (source: my kid's copy of The Prince of Egypt, an animated film). I gather that when the Pharaoh wouldn't let Moses and the Jews leave for the promised land, God did a lot of bad things to the Egyptian including killing a large number of their small children. Did the film get it right, and if so doesn't that make God a mass murderer of innocent children? And, umm, maybe it's just me, but isn't it really, really bad to murder masses of innocent children?

[Aside: Whether God's a mass murderer, and why if he is a mass murderer folks would revere him so is one thing. But I am almost as puzzled by why the Prince of Egypt creators would so explicitly highlight this episode in their script. Why, in a film so obviously respectful of the Bible, and one directed at children no less, would the filmmakers choose to highlight that the God of the Bible is a mass murderer? It's almost as if they knew that people would turn off their brains when viewing the film. And apparently they were right, because I didn't hear of any outcry from parents outraged that mass murder was depicted favorably in a film intended for kids. Why not? Is the theists' marketing dept really that good?

I think I'll stop w/ Thing #1 for now. Thanks in advance for your thoughtful responses. I think it's pretty likely I'll learn something here given the level of discussion I've seen in these forums so far.
5.27.2008 9:52pm
quarkgluonplasma (mail):
"2) I'm very ignorant of the Bible (most of what I think I know about it is secondhand, as will become evident very shortly) and of sacred texts generally."

You aren't missing much at all. Shakespeare is much more gratifying, and isn't filled with pages explaining the genealogies of its characters. On top of that, the characters in the bible are painfully one dimensional. It pretty much made me want to stick pins in my eyes!
5.27.2008 10:01pm
Duffy Pratt (mail):
traveler496:

Here's what you are missing: Pharaoh gets fed up with Moses and the plagues, and wants to relent and let the Israelis go. But before he can do this, God hardens his heart. So, God causes Pharaoh to remain firm, and then punishes his people for the firmness. It's all quite glorious.

Going back to Mr. Oliver's challenge: The Samkhya school of Hinduism dates back to 400 B.C. It was dualistic, shared many of the principles which later became adopted in the yoga sutras, but either denied or remained agnostic about any gods. Does the belief in souls, or human spirit, without any belief in any god, make one an atheist or not?
5.28.2008 12:12am
William Oliver (mail) (www):
"The Samkhya school of Hinduism dates back to 400 B.C."

Like Confucianism, the origin of this is deistic. The derivative is agnostic. Neither are atheistic.
5.28.2008 8:36am
William Oliver (mail) (www):
As an aside, I am increasingly amazed at the lengths folk are going to meet my challenge. In order to do so, they are taking philosophies that recognize and respect the gods of their time and are calling them "atheist." Let's get this straight. "Atheism" does not mean accepting and respecting the gods, it means *denying the existence* of the gods. Derivative philosophies from those religions which also accept and respect the gods are not atheistic.

Now, for those of you who want to go digging into ancient eastern philosophies for an explicitly atheistic moral code, there *is* one. But, unfortunately, it's one that pretty much replicates atheistic societies in the modern world, and I'm not sure that the atheist apologists here would be doing themselves much good. That is, of course, classical Chinese legalism, in which morality, inasmuch as it is recognized at all, is defined entirely by the legal rulings of the State.

Not surprisingly, this lead to draconian, cruel, and oppressive regimes, much like the atheistic regimes we see today.
5.28.2008 9:22am
Duffy Pratt (mail):
Yes, but the way you put it, Socrates philosophy is "derivative" of polytheism, therefore it doesn't count. Dualists who reject theism, but had to live in a world where the theists would kill them, so remained "agnostic", likewise are "derivative" and don't count.

Neither you, nor anyone else, knows if the Confucian writers were atheists or not. The philosophy they wrote makes God irrelevant. Thus, it can be accepted by people who worship ancestors, practice sacrifice, etc... That doesn't mean that its origins were rooted in deism.

As for Socrates, almost everything he says in the Apology undercuts itself. He was tried and found guilty in part for rejecting the Gods. It may be that the trial was just fixed. I tend to think that the trial was fixed and that he was guilty. I think the Euthyphro is pretty good evidence of his rejection of the Greek gods as gods. Whether the ideas that ultimately become Plato's forms can count as gods is another question. Socrates is best know for going around saying that he only knew that he didn't know things. From this, I suppose, you could infer that he was an agnostic. But its not clear to me how honest his protestations of ignorance were.

The Samkhya school did not "recognize and respect" the gods of its time. Rather, it said that one could not have any knowledge about those gods, and therefore the gods were irrelevant to its school of thought. Since the gods were irrelevant, there was no need to reject them either.
5.28.2008 12:10pm