I have been reading the exchange at the Federalist Society website on the Heller case.
I found the post by Carl Bogus at best uninformed and (unintentionally) misleading. Bogus wrote:
A careful study that compared the nine year period before the ban was enacted with the nine years following enactment, and then compared what happened in D.C. with the immediately surrounding areas in Maryland and Virginia, found that the handgun ban reduced gun-related homicides by 25% and gun-related suicides by 23 percent. Colin Loftin, Ph.D., et al., “Effects of Restrictive Licensing of Handguns of Homicide and Suicide in the District of Columbia,” 325 New Eng. J. Med. 1615 (Dec. 5, 1991). The law did not turn Washington into the Garden of Eden, and crime rates fluctuated, particularly during the last few years of the study when the use of “crack” cocaine was increasing and homicides increased dramatically. Nevertheless, the effect of the law was both immediate and sustained, and things would have been worse without it.
From what I've seen, the Loftin study that Bogus points to should not be taken seriously. A simple Google search would have revealed why. According to Dean Payne’s re-analysis, if you use Loftin’s homicide and suicide data, adjust for population changes (as you must), and use per capita rates (as you must), the DC ban is associated with more deaths after the ban, not fewer. While Payne does not argue that the opposite effect is present, the problems that he points to in the Loftin study should render it useless for answering the question that Bogus wants to answer.
Here is part of the devastating 1994 analysis of the Loftin paper by Dean Payne:
Loftin suggests that the District's 1976 restrictive handgun licensing, effectively a ban on new handguns, prevented an average of 47 deaths per year. Inexplicably, the report fails to mention the rapid shrinkage of the District's population, or the rising population of the surrounding community in Maryland and Virginia. When homicides and suicides rates are expressed as per-capita rates, any apparent post-1976 benefit enjoyed by the District vanishes.
------
The core data of the report shows that the average monthly number of gun-related homicides and suicides dropped significantly in DC after it imposed its handgun ban, whereas non-gun deaths in DC and gun and non-gun deaths in the surrounding MD/VA communities did not drop.
Let me restate that data, but combining gun and non-gun deaths:
Mean numbers of homicides and suicides Loftin, et al. data
.
before ban
after ban
change
Homicide
District of Columbia
20.3
16.7
-18%
Maryland and Virginia
8.8
9.1
+3%
Suicide
District of Columbia
7
6
-14%
Maryland and Virginia
19.1
20
+5%
Note that these are deaths per month, not per-capita rates. The study assured us that there were no significant changes within either group, but did not mention actual population sizes or any growth or shrinkage.
I averaged the populations listed in annual FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) and Census Bureau reports, and found substantial changes in the study areas:
Mean population before and after DC ban
.
before ban
after ban
change
District of Columbia
740,800
639,200
-14%
Maryland and Virginia
2,197,400
2,596,400
18%
I also added up the homicides reported in the UCR. My pre-ban numbers matched Loftin's figures, but the post-ban numbers show a large discrepancy. I find about 100 fewer homicides within DC and about 80 more in MD/VA than are evident in Loftin's numbers. Here are both sets, but expressed as per-capita rates:
Mean annual homicide and suicide rates per 100k residents
.
before
after
change
My homicide count
District of Columbia
32.9
29.9
-9%
Maryland and Virginia
4.8
4.5
-6%
Loftin's homicide rates
District of Columbia
32.8
31.3
-5%
Maryland and Virginia
4.8
4.2
-12%
Loftin's suicide rates
District of Columbia
11.3
11.3
-1%
Maryland and Virginia
10.4
9.3
-11%
Loftin suggests that DC's handgun ban saved 47 lives per year — 3.3 gun-related homicides and 0.6 gun-related suicides per month. This view collapses when the per-capita rates are examined. Some lives were saved by the overall death rate decline visible in both groups, but the body count dropped mostly because many people moved out of the District of Columbia. Body counts in neighboring areas didn't drop simply because the declining death rates were outpaced by a rapidly growing population.
According to my count [but not Loftin’s], the District experienced a 3% better post-ban homicide rate reduction than did the neighboring communities. This is the only portion of the reduced homicide rate that could be attributed to DC's more restrictive handgun control, and amounts to about 6 lives per year. This is too small to be statistically significant.
According to Loftin's numbers, adjusted to a per-capita basis, the District's post-ban benefit vanishes altogether. Its proportionate rate reductions are smaller than those achieved by its neighbors.
It may still be true that the fractions of homicides and suicides related to guns were reduced. This must not be mistaken for a reduction in the actual homicide and suicide rates. Concerning suicide in particular, Loftin's suggestion that this example supports the Zimring-Cook weapons-choice theory over the substitution observed by Sloan-Rivara is directly contrary to the data.
------
Loftin's report dismisses a number of confounding factors, but fails to present adequate justification for doing so. Despite claims to the contrary, the presented measure of lives saved by the District's restrictive handgun policy is structured such that it is inherently contaminated by:
- lives saved by a region-wide drop in homicide and suicide rates from other causes, affecting both study areas;
- lives saved by the population exodus from the District;
- killings in which non-firearms means were substituted for firearms.
My analysis suggests that essentially all of the benefit perceived by Loftin is the result of this or similar contamination.
Finally, the study period ends in 1987, just as Washington DC began suffering a continuing homicide wave that earned it the dishonor of being the Murder Capital of the United States. It is doubtful that many opponents of restrictive handgun controls will be swayed when a city experiencing a doubling of its already horrendous homicide rate is simultaneously heralded as a successful example of such controls.
That the New England Journal of Medicine would publish a time-series article that did not account for population changes over roughly a two-decade period is embarrassing, but then peer review seems to suffer when gun control articles are involved.
I must confess that, unfortunately, this isn’t the first time that Carl Bogus has had trouble with inconvenient evidence. I remember during the dispute over Arming America that Bogus was writing a review and sought my permission to cite one of my unpublished drafts. Before I called him, I confirmed that his own university library’s special collection had a copy of the published Providence Probate records that Michael Bellesiles had used – and grossly misrepresented in Arming America. I called Bogus, gave him the name and number of the reference librarian I spoke with, and tried to get Bogus to spend an hour in his own university’s library confirming that there were major problems with Bellesiles’s account before Bogus finalized his review. Bogus refused even to look at the contrary evidence I urged him to examine, a decision that in part led him to seriously misjudge the work he was reviewing.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Responding to Bogus on His Arming America Review.--
- Carl Bogus Responds:
- "The Islam of Democracy":
- Carl Bogus's Unpersuasive Comments on Heller.--
"AA", obviously deeply flawed if not outright dishonest and repugnant, would not likely have been considered a major blow one way or the other in the gun rights debate, despite its press and awards.
Yet the fanatical factionalism of a group of people whose singular aim seems to be making sure like-minded people frequently possess guns and feel free to shoot others in specific situations led to a rabid furor aimed at refuting every undotted i and uncrossed t in this fairly unremarkable book.
Strange, that.
I'm much more concerned about the psychology of a group of people who believe they, at all times, need the option open to kill someone.
I'm also equally puzzled at the VC's collective jerk... err, backslapping over "30 years of scholarly work on the 2A".
Congratulations, I think.
Do you find it comforting that if a large group of Breyer acolytes wrote a critical mass of scholarly articles, then that justice's opinions could usher in substantive changes in US jurisprudence in a few decades time?
Are you really OK with the notion that all it takes to change the world is to consistently assert one opinion over and over?
What the hell are you saying? Are you asserting that the errors in the study were trivial, and do not affect the conclusions? Loftin's analysis would earn him an "F" in any statistics class. Even after adjusting the population, the study has serious difficulties. This is an area in statistics called "intervention analysis," and involves more than just using per capita data.
For anyone who would like to explore these misleading historical points further, read my article criticizing the historians' amicus at the History News Network - http://hnn.us/articles/47238.html
I agree that it is inexplicable that any measure of gun-related homicides was not expressed in per capita terms. I do have one question for you. Why should there be a dramatic drop off in homicide rate because the city's population shrinking. If the population of the DC went down over the relevant time period, don't you think it's possible that the homicide rate might actually go up -- based on the idea that the more economically depressed an urban area becomes the more likely that its violent crime rate (and/or homicide rate) will go up. (I am thinking of Detroit for example.)
NEJM's uncritical acceptance of Kellermann's case-control methodology as applied to homicide persuaded me that they were not in the habit of scrutinizing the statistics in anti-gun articles.
What are you talking about. This study has been reproached, that's the whole subject of this thread.
Is this NEJM article available without paying for it? I think it would take about 10 minutes to break it.
Your post is absurd. Lindgren made an assertion, and he showed you why with the numbers. You say he is oblivious without a single substantive argument to back up your statement.
The CAPS didn't help your credibility, but the good news is that your argument was so weak, it didn't hurt your point either.
You're absurd, my friend. You don't realize that there are numbers, equally on the pro and anti gun side, that any side can use to back up their politically motivated assertions. You're just falling prey to it. And that - well - is sad.
Sure there are numbers on both sides. But Lindgren wasn't talking about just any numbers, he cited specific numbers, and a specific article debunking those specific numbers from a specific study, and he linked them all specifically.
Now you assert that Payne and Lindgren were wrong, and the study of course was right without even a hint, what is right about the original study, or what could possibly wrong with the critique.
Then you come back with a nonsensical "any side can use [numbers] to back up their politically motivated assertions." Not if they are fact checked.
You are obviously missing my point. You're a pro-gun guy and I get that so you're obviously one to credit stats that support your view. But honestly dude, every study that I've ever read or cited to has been purportedly dismantled by an opposite sided idealogical view. So my point is basically ... anyone who cites stats or whatever is on a certain side of the argument. And that's why *I* don't cite stats because they are completely useless unless you're so idealogical that you will blindly cite one and disregard the other.
In any event, this is a LEGAL argument and not a policy-based one ,and on the legal side I think we pretty much agree. So...cheers mate!Q
Crime never reduces after firearms restrictions; I have sociological theories as to why, but it's immaterial. Gun-related and non-firearms violent crime never goes down following restriction, and often goes up.
PS Jim: I have a simple, non-adjusted Excel spreadsheet on D.C homicide vs US/VA/MD rates. It's pretty hard to see how the DC ban didn't just make things (much) worse. Email for a copy.
I appreciate you recanting your first comment. That must of really hurt. Going from:
to:
Is quite a backflip.
You are right however, this was a matter of constitutional interpretation, not statistics. That does not mean that stats have no place in legal and policy discussions. I would be surprised if there were not some valid statistical studies that showed that guns can be dangerous, because they certainly can be, that is the whole point of having them. For instance I do not doubt that people without guns in the home are less likely to be shot than people with guns in the home. Many of us are fair minded when it comes to legitimate statistics. And we don't immediately attack those that proffer them as PATHETIC, at least without some evidence.
But the Loftin article is NOT a serious piece of social science.
On the history issue, however, the pro-gun crowd is mostly right. And the best historians -- Edmund Morgan, Gordon Wood, Philip Hamburger -- agree with the individual rights view.
So Kasinsi: This is for you buddy!!! :) Your concession is well taken, friend. There are indeed stats that show what you explicate above.
My problem is with RHETORIC. We can debate all day long (though I'm running out of cigarettes so my bed is calling me pretty soon :) I mean I'm exmpeting the ENTIRE gun control debate from this conversation. Seriously, I am. So, you ask, what is the f'ing point of MY RHETORIC? It's to say that although as we've known for quite some time (unless you think SCOTUS is made up of a bunch of wallflowers - and you're too smart so i know you don't :)) that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to bear arms, this is only the BEGINNING of the enquiry and not nearly close to the end. So...I'll say again....I could give two #*&^s about (Prof.) Lingrend's stats bc they are colored by his individual ideological views...and at this point am so cynical about the policy views on both sides that I'd default to the gun control position with important caveats!
Cheers bud. I'm out of cigarettes. So..I'm out of comments. But honestly...good debate my friend and cheeers and cheers!
The appropriate model for this kind of data is Poisson(100*n(j) t(j)). Where n(j) is the young black DC male population in year j, and t(j) is the corresponding rate. Then you want to see if t(j) changes after gun control was enacted. "Poisson" refers to the Poisson distribution. Do the same thing for the white population. This should produce a much cleaner analysis where you can make probability statements.
Please permit me a bit of presumption, and I will sum up for those of you trying to follow this at home. Alan Jeffries appears willing to concede that the pro-gun side is correct on the Constitution. He will agree that the pro-gun side is correct on the history. When pressed, he may even grudgingly admit that the pro-gun side is essentially correct on the social science. What seems to be causing his distress is that the "fascists" have scored a victory, and are celebrating it and congratulating those who have worked for (in some cases) decades to bring this victory about. I suspect Justices Stevens, Breyer, Ginsberg, and Souter are feeling the same way, right about now.
So, this process has shown that the Forces of Truth and Light have been (at best) misguided and ignorant, or (at worst) intellectually dishonest--or even flat-out lying--about this issue from start to finish. Meanwhile, the "fascists" have succeeded by overwhelming the smart people with intellectual firepower. This is a dark day, indeed.
Please, wipe that smirk off your face.
Brett,
Lindgren is just being subtle, as one must if if one is going to preserve some decorum in a relationship. Note how he dismisses the idea that it was intentional while he briefly focuses your mind on the idea:
Notice the same technique in his earlier dismissal of Breyer:
But of course it isn't an either/or situation, Breyer is an unusually biased judge and the balancing test is unworkable, in that it wouldn't even come close to protecting a constitutional right.
I mean, God, has anybody in history ever had a more appropriate name? Is he committed to living up to it?
Wazzagrunt pretty well summarizes Mr. Jeffries argument in his post above. ButI am curious about the relationship between ideology and statistics--If I am following Mr J's trail correctly, he seems to be asserting that statistics cannot be used by anyone with an ideological bias. I always thought the statistics could be tested and thus be indpendent of ideological bias.
Liberalism is socially, not intellectually, driven.
As to the study, it is a Gracie Allen reasoning:
Burns: Gracie, it says here that most accidents occur with 15 miles of home.
Allen: (pause) Do you think we should move?
Another pleasant summer evening, when I can hear the loons calling....
I think this fairly well describes how a majority of the anti-2nd crowd (including the 4 dissenters) think. This argument, at its core, isnt about constitutional law or even the effectiveness of gun control. Its about the personal aversion to an armed society as an aestetic question. Granny with a gun on her nightstand just does not fit into the utopian worldview that is the thread holding the left together. Hence guns must rest solely in the hands of the government by any means necessary.
I think if you took a Brady Campaigner out for a drink and asked if they would prefer a world with 0% crime and 100% gun ownership, or our current level of crime and 0% ownership, they would select the latter. What you have to understand is that there is an emotional aversion at work here, and you cant reason somebody out of a position they didnt reason themselves into in the first place.
What I was saying, Asst. Village Idiot, is that the time and fervor which gun rights advocates devote to this topic (didn't Jim Lindgren spend several months running around examining records to debunk one piece of evidence in Arming America?) is bizarre and interesting to me.
As is the idea, yet unaddressed by previous commenters, that it is a good or desirable thing for '30 years of scholarship' by results-oriented (and possibly ideological) academics to contribute to a substantive change in the law. (I use 'results-oriented' here to mean you wish to effect a change in the law, not in the usual sense.)
As I said above, this case is such a non-issue (who, exactly, didn't believe in an individual right before now, esp. based on originalism? It's practically a strawman) as to not merit dozens of posts on the VC. IMO.
I did not say 2Aers are 'bad, bad, people' or 'stupid, violent, fascist, uninformed'. (Those are generally appellations reserved by the right to describe the left. Or, if you prefer, the left to describe the right. IMO, anybody who talks in such broad strokes can't be taken that seriously.)
We'll leave the armed insurrectionist idea for another time, but I'm puzzled why some here --DocW, AnonLawStudent -- seem to think it's not something reasonable people can disagree about. Disagreeing with another person generally isn't considered a "sleazy smear".
My take is that tradeoffs were made, and the strongest support in this particular Court for the 2A was achieved. If the Court had wanted, for instance, a 6 - 3, or a 7 - 2 decision, all it needed to do was to give a more Caspar Milquetoast decision. The fact that it decided 5 - 4 indicates that this is the strongest pro-2A decision that this Court was capable of rendering in this time and place.
And thanx to A. Jeffries' tantrums, my schadenfreude got a big shot in the arm. I'm jazzed!
I've posted the per-capita rates over here.
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