Today we learned that Barack Obama opposes the proposed amendment to the California constitution defining marriage as the union of a man and a woman. In a letter to a gay civil rights group in San Francisco, Obama said he rejects "the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution" and similar efforts in other states.
At the same time, Obama has repeatedly said that while he supports civil unions for gay couples he believes marriage is between a man and a woman. At a Democratic debate last August sponsored by the gay-themed cable station LOGO, he had this exchange with Human Rights Campaign Executive Director Joe Solmonese:
MR. SOLMONESE: So to follow up on your point about the state issue, if you were back in the Illinois legislature where you served and the issue of civil marriage came before you, how would you have voted on that?
SEN. OBAMA: Well, I — you know, my view is that we should try to disentangle what has historically been the issue of the word "marriage," which has religious connotations to some people, from the civil rights that are given to couples, in terms of hospital visitation, in terms of whether or not they can transfer property or any of the other — Social Security benefits and so forth. So it depends on how the bill would've come up.
I would've supported and would continue to support a civil union that provides all the benefits that are available for a legally sanctioned marriage.
Though the answer was a bit muddled, and seems calculated to ease the blow of his opposition to gay marriage in front of a gay audience, I read this to mean that Obama would oppose a bill in a state legislature to permit same-sex couples to marry but would support a bill to let these same couples enter civil unions giving them equivalent rights under state and federal law. This has become the dominant view of the Democratic Party. (If in fact he personally opposes gay marriage but supports it as a matter of public policy, his campaign hasn't said so.)
Assuming that Obama's opposition to gay marriage is not simply "personal," but is also a matter of public policy, I find Obama's current position perplexing. He opposes a referendum that would simply enshrine his purported public-policy view that marriage is between a man and a woman because, he says, it is "discriminatory."
But how is the proposed amendment any more "discriminatory" than his own position? His position is that marriage is between a man and woman; the proposed amendment says that marriage is "between a man and a woman." (Full text: "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.”) The proposed California amendment is narrower than the other proposed state constitutional amendments, many of which have explicitly bitten off much more than gay marriage.
Is there any way to reconcile opposition to gay marriage with opposition to the California amendment? I can think of three ways to reconcile these views, none of which is cited by the Obama campaign.
First, I suppose one could oppose writing the definition into the state constitution as opposed to state statutes. This would leave the state legislature and governor with the flexibility and the power to make the call at a later time. But the problem with that is that the state supreme court effectively wrote the new definition into the state constitution, removing this very power from the state legislature and the governor. If you oppose gay marriage on policy grounds, there is now no way to implement your view except to constitutionalize it by amendment. The state supreme court has left you no choice. And in California, because it's so easy to amend the state constitution, you're free to vote for a repeal at a later date if you change your mind on this issue. And you don't have to worry in 2008 that you are helping to set up a supermajority barrier to the possibility that you will change your position in the future.
Second, since gay marriages are a fait accompli for the next few months, even if you oppose them you might not want to reverse the interim marriages (which is a possible effect of passing the amendment) or, more abstractly, "take away rights." These would be incredibly generous reasons for a real opponent of gay marriage to oppose the California amendment since the number of interim marriages will be small in absolute terms, the marriages exist only by mandate of four judges, they are entered with full knowledge and notice that they may be nullified in a short time, and the cost of losing the referendum will be many more such marriages into the indefinite future. But if Obama is such an anti-SSM altruist, he does not give this as a reason for opposing the amendment.
Third, a gay-marriage opponent who supports civil unions (like Obama) could vote against the California amendment on the ground that it might also be interpreted to eliminate the state's domestic partnership system. This might be an unacceptably high cost if you oppose gay marriage, but don't oppose it very strongly, and think the costs of ending the domestic partnership system would be high. I think it unlikely the amendment will be interpreted so broadly by the California courts if it passes, but the risk is above zero. However, once again, Obama does not offer this as a reason to oppose the amendment.
So what's really going on? I think there are two things happening. First, I don't think Obama really opposes gay marriage deep down and I suspect he does see the exclusion of gay couples as a kind of discrimination. He has never been able to explain his reasons for opposing gay marriage — which is very revealing for a man who's otherwise unusually thoughtful. He just says, basically, I oppose gay marriage "because I say so." So calling the amendment discriminatory and divisive may be candor squeaking through. Second, and probably more importantly, this is an instance where politics necessitates cognitive dissonance. Gays and those who support gay equality are a critical constituency in the Democratic Party. Obama can't keep the gay-friendly base happy and support the amendment, which is rightly seen by them as involving huge stakes for the gay-marriage movement. But at the same time he has calculated that he can't come out for gay marriage as a matter of public policy because that might mean losing the election.
Don't get me wrong, I strongly oppose the California amendment and intend to contribute to its defeat. And on one level, I am very gratified by Obama's opposition. It might actually help sway some of his socially conservative black and Latino supporters, who will vote in large numbers in California in November. But then, I support gay marriage. If I opposed it, I'd probably be either mystified or angered.
Obama's explanation for why he opposes gay marriage and opposes the proposed California amendment banning it can't be squared as a matter of logic. It's a matter of politics, which says something about how much things have changed in a short time. We've gone from the Democratic presidential nominee in 2004 opposing gay marriage and supporting state constitutional amendments to ban it (as Kerry did, even where gay marriage existed, in Massachusetts); to a Democratic nominee who says he opposes gay marriage, but who's uncharacteristically at a loss to explain himself, and who opposes the only way to prevent it from becoming a reality in a state with 40 million people; to, I predict, a nominee in 2012 or 2016 who will say he or she personally favors gay marriage but says the president has no role in the decision because this is an issue that should be left to the states.
If "Civil Unions" do not have the full benefits of "marriage" (e.g. automatic recognition between states) how is saying you are for them any different than being for "Separate but equal" 100 years ago?
I normally ignore what politicians say their policies will be, and rely on a weighted average of what their supporters wish their policies would be. I find this is a far more accurate gauge of what they will actually do once in office. That said, I'm surprised just how many of Obama's supporters seem to be hoping that he is lying about his positions.
In other words: our concern for the interests of religious people require us to pass the California Amendment and our concern for the interests of the gay community require us to not pass the California Amendment.
Everybody has won and all must have prizes!
I'm not a supporter, but I hope he's lying about his positions too!
Seriously, though, the most perplexing thing about Obama is how he can talk out of both sides of his mouth so frequently and expect people to vote for him. I can accept that McCain is doing some "doubling-back" on the issues too, but McCain's been around a long time, we have a sense of what he'll do as a president because he's been a major policymaker for decades. But Obama? There's just nothing to indicate where his foundation is... and the characters he surrounded himself with in Chicago are, to say the least, suspect.
Otherwise thoughtful? You really think so? Color me cynical, but I think Obama is thoughtful to the extent all other politicians are and his policies and words are calculated to net him the most votes.
This is not only Obama's, but also Hillary's and Edward's position as well. This is something that has infuriated me with many in the Democratic party... We ALL KNOW that Obama, Clinton, and Edwards support full marriage (wink wink), but we have to pretend to go along with this charade...
For the life of me, I don't know why they do this... is there a SINGLE voter out there who doesn't actually believe Obama, Clinton, and Edwards really supports SSM? Does this strategy win them a single vote??
Honestlt, I was hoping for more leadership from Obama and Edwards (not from Hillary so much).
Oh come on, are you really hopping that McCain thinks that a "gas tax holiday" makes economic sense? That he thinks that there isn't a private market for technological advances in batteries (such that a public "price" is required)?
Politicians always pander, and serious people always hope that they aren't buying into their own pandering. The idea that this is unique to Obama is absurd.
I can't speak for Obama, but that's my position. I don't think government should get involved in the essentially religious question of what marriage means. And as a non-legal matter, I wouldn't dispute the prevailing religious view that marriage should be man-woman. But if the government is going to insist on getting into this despite my preferences (something it has an annoying habit of doing), the question should be decided on a non-discriminatory basis, i.e., SSM permitted on equal terms.
Well, because there's a world of difference between "I don't approve" and "let's make it illegal", that's why. I don't approve of gay marriage either, primarily because it's like trying to make laws that say "white" now includes black people too, so it becomes meaningless to call someone "white" and you have to explain that he's not white-white, he's black-white, except there's the whole new law about white, so we have to call him white, and it's just RETARDED. It just pisses off the rest of the world, who suddenly has to change the way they speak for no good reason.
I predict that the day gay marriage becomes legal nationwide, the term "fag-married" enters the popular vernacular. "Yeah, I got married. So did my sister. Oh yeah, and my brother's fag-married."
Because changing the word doesn't change the world.
It will be another couple generations before we have enough adults that didn't spend their childhood playing "smear the queer" on the playground, and didn't call the losing team "fags" after every sporting event, and didn't say the new rules they didn't like were "gay". There's no shortcut to this. You just have to STFU and wait. All the laws in the world will not make it happen faster. And yeah, it sucks (there's another one), and you're more than welcome to be righteously angry about it - because it's not fair, and you do deserve better.
But you can't fix this, and you can only make things worse by trying. You just have to wait.
I mean, do you think that Bush really believes in Christ? If anyone's lined up for a straight ticket to H-E-double-Hockey Sticks it's him. Bush knows that if he pretends to love God, then poor Christians out in the boondocks will vote for him and he can implement his crazy only-favor-the-wealthy policies that contribute to the wealth of his real friends and further the daily impoverishment of the religious schmucks who he's duped.
Everyone knows this.
Your argument is a bit confusing. Under your logic, we should never have changed our understanding of "person" in the Constitution to include black people. At the time, it didn't. People using logic like yours would have said something like "We can't just call black people. That would be ridiculous!!!"
See how what your saying actually makes no sense?
"We can't just call blacks "people". That would be ridiculous!!!"
(this is clearer)
And what does Rev. Wright think of gay marriage?
"Under your logic, we should never have changed our understanding of "person" in the Constitution to include black people."
We didn't. We simply clarified that the word "person" did not imply skin color. This naturally extended the word to include not only black people, but also native Americans and Asians and whatever else might show up. The effect of the clarification was not limited to one and only one special interest group, thereby preserving the privilege of discriminating against the unrepresented.
If someone were to suggest that we should redefine "marriage" in such a way that it was permissible for any number of consenting adults of either gender to enter into such a relationship for any period of time (not necessarily forever), I would support that. That's about freedom. I like freedom! Let's have more of it.
But "same sex marriage" is not really about freedom. It's about privilege. "Hey, we want those privileges, too... and we don't care about those other people over there."
So, too, is any amendment to a constitution which defines "marriage" as being ONLY what it means today - always and forevermore. "Hey, we don't want anyone else to have our privileges, no matter what we may learn culturally in the future."
I want to see a proposal for gay marriage that is about freedom for ALL AMERICANS, not just the gay American. I think it would be readily apparent from such a proposal that it was not a slippery slope to anything, because it drew a nice and definite line around something we could pretty much all agree was acceptable even if we didn't like it. Gay marriage would be in there; polygamy would be in there; limited-term marriage would be in there.
But to be perfectly honest, I don't think it matters what we call it. The religious right currently oppose calling it marriage; I don't see why we should have a problem with it. What's wrong with using a different word? Not "civil union", that sounds somehow inferior to marriage.
How about "weddage"? It's different, it's unconnected to any particular connotation, and yet it dovetails nicely with "wedding". We can just say "marriage is an archaic variety of weddage which contains exactly one man and one woman monogamously wedded for life". What's wrong with that?
"I personally opposed gay marriages" for [ ] reason(s). But I also feel that it's obscene to deny legal rights to gay couples who have committed to a loving relationship. I strongly support gay couples having EVERY right and responsibility that married couples have. Since those rights obviously include federal rights (some pensions, intestate rights, hospital visits, recognition by other states and the fed government, etc etc), until the day that civil unions are treated exactly the same as heterosexual marriages, I must oppose any proposed California amendment that would serve only to enforce the treatment of gays as 2nd class citizens, with 2nd class rights. The wrongness of calling gay unions "marriages" is greatly outweighed by the obscenity of discriminating against gay people, and so I have chosen the best option available at this time. But when the federal government passes legislation giving gay couples all the rights/responsibilities afforded married couples, and when all states similarly elect to treat gays equally, I will happily and proudly support the effort to restrict "marriage" to heterosexual couples."
Or something like that.
And, of course, you have to address the counter-argument that your argument suggests the government should not call blacks "people".
Science will soon be able to tell us if gayness is caused by genes or hormones, and then parents will be able to test for it and then have the choice of whether they want to cure it or abort or leave it alone. Considering that most people having babies are heterosexual, I'd expect few would want gay babies. Thus gayness will soon be very rare.
Science isn't going to tell you shit, because it's a complex cause phenomenon driven by genetics, hormones, culture, experience, and choice. You can't attribute it to any one thing. You could conceivably select against the genetics, and reduce the gay population a little. You could conceivably drug your children during puberty, and reduce the gay population a little.
But you'd still have the majority - and I would suspect the VAST majority - who are gay primarily because of cultural and environmental and even personal choice factors. You can't control those. Indeed, I'm personally rather offended by the hormonal control idea. The genetics, not so much, because I don't think most people will even think of it.
I'm waiting with some delight for the first lawsuit where the family genetically selects for a non-gay baby... who still grew up and turned out gay. You can't control it. You can't prevent it. They're here, they're queer, get used to it.
I thought we weren't allowed to imply that choice figures into it... How quickly things change.
Heh. I was told that "no one chooses to be gay" because of all the terrible oppression. And I was told that you couldn't be molested into being gay, because that was just another canard. And I was told that living a certain lifestyle doesn't make your sexuality into something else, because all the gay activists said ex-gays were living a lie.
So get your story straight. The fact is, Epluribus is dead right and homosexuality will soon go the way of the dodo.
What I really love, however, is how *uncomfortable* gay issues make grown men. They just don't know how to answer the questions. I suspect it isn't just that they want to avoid offending any particular segment of the voting public (though surely that is party of it). But I think that they really don't know what to do -- support gays and then risk being called gay your self? (Hey, the rumormill has Obama as a gay muslim, or didn't you know?) Disown gays and look like Pat Robertson?
I think most politicians just want us to go away. It's easier to talk about war than gays. Which is pretty interesting when you think about it.
Wait a minute! I thought the whole reason we should stop discriminating against gays and punishing gay behavior is because it's not a choice, they can't help it they're born that way (like race).
So if it's culture, experience and choice maybe we need to go back to punishing it, banning it and making sure no gays go near children who could be vulnerable to the experience.
Common sense tells us it is not entire genetic - lesbian until release?
Science cannot tell us that it is genetic.
It is probably a little bit of both. However, some homosexual advocates fight this truth because they like the race comparison. Without innateness this analogy is no good. Innateness also allows homosexuals who might be a little defensive about it a defense of sorts. If you really like to do something a good number of people find disgusting - it is best to not be able to not do it.
Other homosexuals and homosexual rights advocates seem to go by the more libertine explanation.
Yes, I would oppose legislation that purports to define the word "marriage" to be being limited to heterosexual unions. And I would especially oppose a Constitutional amendment.
It is simply not a proper role for the legislature to employ the power of state to try to change how people use common words of the English language.
(1) He's not thought about them seriously, since he's gotten to this point without anybody making him. His charisma, coupled with the Democrats' fervor for a minority mascot immune from criticism, has earned him a free pass; and
(2) He doesn't strike me as particularly bright. Incredibly good on the telepromper, sure, but lousy on his feet. This leads me to believe he's not a poor extemporaneous speaker, but a poor extemporaneous thinker. Columbia, Harvard Law, sure, but affirmative action can't bail him out where cameras don't lie.
At the same time, Obama has repeatedly said that while he supports civil unions for gay couples he believes marriage is between a man and a woman.
I don't understand the problem. Obama is for change. Because he is for change, he changes his positions when he needs to change them so that they don't remain unchanged.
No one knows why one person is gay and another is straight. There is a strong genetic component, but there is also likely an environmental component, by which they mean they environment within a womb (hormones and all that). Most scientists agree that your sexual orientation, what ever it is, is set by the time of your birth, or at least within the first few years.
Some people are bisexual. That means that they can be attracted to people of the same or opposite sex, but there are many different kinds of bisexuality. There are some people who are equally attracted to both sexes, but more likely, they lean towards one or the other. This is why sometimes a person will appear hetero to him or herself throughout their life, and then they meet someone of the same sex and be attracted to that person.
The issues are quite complex, and we actually know very little.
And regardless of whether it IS a choice or not, there is no justification for discrimination against gays or bisexuals.
Epluribus: "So if it's culture, experience and choice maybe we need to go back to punishing it, banning it and making sure no gays go near children who could be vulnerable to the experience."
Yes, because it worked so well up till now....(sheesh)
We're not. I'm a homophobic asshole.
@DangerMouse: "I was told... I was told... I was told..."
They're lying to you, because it's beneficial to their cause.
@EPluribusMoney: "if it's culture, experience and choice maybe we need to go back to punishing it"
Yeah, because that worked SO well, didn't it?
The problem with saying it's partially a result of choice is that people think that means you sit there one day and say "am I gay, or not?" - which isn't what happens. You grow up making choices based on completely non-sexual criteria, because you have NO CLUE about their eventual impact. You make choices when you're five that change who you're going to be later in life, but you have no ability to evaluate those choices or their repercussions. Eventually, those choices overbalance in one direction or the other, and it's done.
There's simply no reasonable way to control every choice people make for the first fifteen years of their lives. And the sanctions against it, the cultural rejection of it, are not going to work either - because people frequently choose to rebel against the status quo. Indeed, homosexuality is one of the most deeply profound and personal rebellions against that status quo, and efforts to make it unacceptable will probably just make it stronger.
@Randy R.: "I think that they really don't know what to do -- support gays and then risk being called gay your self?"
There was no greater insult than "fag" when I was in school. Some people never get over that. It's the whole thing of being told you're gay when you don't even really know whether you are or not, and you have to deny it because you know it's an insult, but you don't even really know HOW to deny it.
"I am not! I... uh... I was thinking about chicks last time I whacked off!"
That's a really weak defense. So fundamentally, that homophobia carries over throughout our lives. Homosexuality is a really scary thing to a lot of straight men, because if you have any gay friends, you inevitably have that "pod person" moment. Your friend comes to you one day and tells you he's gay. He doesn't act any different... but somehow, he is, and it's awkward. It feels like our friend just walked away one night, and came back gay.
No matter how ridiculous we know it is, there's a part of us that has to believe something happened in the intervening time to make him gay - and worries that it might happen to us, too. Just like there's a part of us that believes women are only lesbians because they can't get a man, or because a man has mistreated them. It's irrational, and frequently easy to disprove... but we still insist on believing it.
Homosexuality - sexuality in general, really - is a vast and inscrutable mystery to most people. Homosexuals and "perverts" of other stripes tend to be the most inquisitive and educated about it... and that, too, frightens the masses. Sex is magical, in a sense, and power over sex to the degree that you can transcend biology itself (or God Himself, if you prefer) is an awfully frightening amount of power.
Try to be more ignorant next time. Yes, homosexuality is genetic. We aren't waiting on anything. The data is here. We know from identical twin studies that it is at least 50% genetic. The rest is likely caused by hormones in the womb. And it is not going anywhere anytime soon. If that were the case, the genes would have dropped out a long time ago. In fact, the genes that cause homosexuality turn out to be beneficial to humans as a whole, because when expressed in women, they lead to increased fertility. As it turns out, slutty women are more likely to have gay male children. It just so happens those genes can get passed to men, increasing their propensity to be homosexual.
I'm guessing you don't believe in evolution, because you don't understand how it works. Just because a certain trait does not lead to one individual's genetic fitness, doesn't mean the trait will not survive. Homosexuality has always been here, and it ain't going away, because the genes that make it more likely in males have made humans, in general, more successful. "Gay genes" do not get passed from gay fathers to sons. They get passed from mothers to sons. Do you have a lot of sons? There is a good chance that the last one might be gay.
"As it turns out, slutty women are more likely to have gay male children."
Well, that's one way to look at it. Another way is that slutty women are more likely to have several children, and more likely to have male children (Y sperm are faster and more aggressive than X sperm, so frequent sperm reception statistically favors a male fetus), and male children with several older brothers are more likely to be gay.
And that would be environmental.
The jury is very much out on this issue, and I personally believe there are several subtleties to homosexuality that aren't immediately obvious and will not be properly categorised in the research. I believe some gay men - what percentage, I don't know - actually have what amounts to a penis fetish, and are only homosexual because women don't have a penis. Similarly, there are some gay men that don't want to have sex with men (and hence are not "really" gay), but are culturally required to do so in the context of any intimate relationship with a man.
It's disingenuous to pretend that all gay men are interchangeable in this kind of research, but that's exactly what the researchers tend to do.
Except for the fact that no one has ever suggested that any church should be required by to law to perform homosexual marriages.
but hey, the straw man comes in handy when you want to bash him.
As LM said, the basic idea is to get the government out of the business of marriage entirely. The government would offer "civil unions" to heterosexual couples and homosexual couples alike, providing the legal benefits currently associated with "marriage", and not discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation.
At the same time, the government would stop offering anything called "marriage". That word would become the province of religion. Most religious marriages would also have a civil component, but the combination would not be necessary. Every religion could make its own choice on homosexual marriage; some would offer it, and some would not.
It's a reasoned, nuanced proposal, that doesn't play directly to either side, and is designed to remove sources of conflict rather than create them. So it's not a surprise that it doesn't get much airplay in the media. But I'd have thought that it would have crossed your radar before.
It's a long way from "genetics influences X strongly" to "we can test for X".
Who's there, in the other devil's
name? Faith, here's an equivocator, that could
swear in both the scales against either scale;
who committed treason enough for God's sake,
yet could not equivocate to heaven: O, come
in, equivocator.
...
Knock, knock; never at quiet! What are you? But
this place is too cold for hell. I'll devil-porter
it no further: I had thought to have let in
some of all professions that go the primrose
way to the everlasting bonfire.
-- William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act II, Scene III
I can only assume there were few votes at risk there, unlike with this marriage discussion. I guess you need to have some convictions to have the courage of your convictions.
I can only assume there were few votes at risk there, unlike with this marriage discussion. I guess you need to have some convictions to have the courage of your convictions.
I can only assume there were few votes at risk there, unlike with this marriage discussion. I guess you need to have some convictions to have the courage of your convictions.
That suggested position does not, as Dale formulates it, have to leave the decision entirely to the legislative process to the point of overruling a court if necessary. One can prefer civil unions as a legislative solution if constitutionally permissible but also regard the constitutional principle of equal protection (as developed by the judiciary) as too sacrosanct to qualify with amendments. Legislatures pass laws all the time with the idea that courts will ensure that the laws don't exceed constitutional requirements, and if they do exceed those requirements, the legislatures come back and enact a revision that complies with constitutional limitations. The position is one of respecting legislative choice within existing constitutional constraints but not deeming the issue as so one-sided as to demand amendment of a fundamental constitutional right. In short: Civil unions if constitutional, marriage if not, but in no event tinker with the equal protection clause.
This would be no less incoherent a position than Obama's because the Federal government must still decide whether to bestow Federal marriage rights on same-sex marriages legally sanctioned by a state.
It would gain coherence only if the candidate espousing such a view also recommends the abolition of all Federal marriage rights, and how likely is that?
The kindest thing one could say about such a position is that it is still a dodge.
Marriage is a union of one man and one woman, no matter how hard you try to change people's mind.
Obama is perfect on the issue.
Homo and hetero are fundamentally different so segregation is absolutely justifiable and legal, no equal protection is violated.
Gender neutrality is an outright extremism similar to communist and fascist ideology.
You wrote that
True, we can't peform a full fetal IQ test. But millions do test for Down syndrome or other forms of retardation marked by low IQ, and the abortion rates are incredibly high when such tests are positive. So that is, I think, "aborting the ones that don't measure up."
Show of hands, please.
Marriage is a form of contract, and an animal already cannot legally enter into a contract. Your proposed amendment is superfluous.
There are marriage contracts and there are marriage contracts. There are other cultures where marriages are arranged by both sets of parents, or an individual and one set of parents. They are frequently arranged when the betrothed are infants and (particularly for the female) do not in any way require the consent or approval of the subjects. Participation is not optional. Whether enforced by overwhelming social pressure, or the threat of "honor killings/beatings", it would be a great deal more than a stretch to say these contracts have been entered into freely. We still recognize those.
A dog is far more likely to run away than are certain unwilling brides.
as long as there is a love anything is possible.
According to homosexual party we should define everything from love. As long as loving relationship is present it is marriage.
Being able to catch a specific disease is one thing. Being able to catch the complex end result of a long developmental process is another. But you are certainly right that we can argue over which homosexuality is. My bet is that it's an emergent property from a huge complex of genes, just like intelligence.
This is not a real concern. It's an alarmist bullshit argument. Nobody wants to marry animals except the mentally ill, and the mentally ill can't legally enter into a contract either.
Senator Obama thinks gay and lesbians should have all the same rights and benefits for their relationships as other citizens. He will work to repeal the Federal DOMA so that civil unions will become eligible for spousal recognition, he will advocate civil unions just not marriage.
He specifically says he will NOT tell gays and lesbians they cannot themselves work for full marriage, not his right, not his call. And once they do get marriage equality passed again it isn't his place to try and reverse it just because he would have preferred them to have had civil unions instead, hence his stand in California
When he was asked, he draws an analogy to miscegenation laws at the time of his birth - 12 states still would say his parents marriage was illegal. When the interviewer asks about Kennedy and that president's support of black civil rights, Obama points out that regardless he didn't speak out against miscegenation laws. The president can help but you can't expect him to do it all.
So he thinks some things we will just have to do for ourselves and congratulations if we succeed. Regardless he thinks we should have equal legal protections and that viewpoint to me seems refreshingly pragmatic AND supportive.
But any good Christian would oppose such abortions. therefore, if a fetus were tested as gay, Christians would be the first ones to prevent the abortion, and then adopt and raise the little homo in a kind and loving environment, right?
I thought you opposed marriage between Homo Sapiens. Make up your mind.
(Yes, I know it's juvenile, but it seemed about the right level of response to that comment.)
But would the government allow people to attempt same-sex conception? Or would man-woman civil unions have a right that same-sex civil unions not have?
We should stop wasting time and get down to brass tacks: Does Obama support, in principle, the idea of same-sex conception, or does he feel that people should only be allowed to conceive with a person of the other sex?
Dale, can you participate in this discussion for once?
"Homosexuality used to be classified as a mental illness/disorder, and not that long ago."
Are you proposing that we should reinstate that classification?
Why is it his place to try to prevent gays from marriage equality in the first place, but not his place to reverse marriage equality?
But that is his point isn't it? He feels that marriage is for a man and a woman and will vote and act accordingly in all positive assertions, but he acknowledges that others can disagree and explicitly states that he has not right to tell them they can't work for those goals themselves.
but not his place to reverse marriage equality?
Because he is an advocate for his point of view, not an adversary of those that hold different points of views.
He is pretty clear and I'm surprised that Dale is confused - he's saying 'I am an advocate for you to have equal access to government for your partnerships as civil unions, want to ride on my coat tails towards those goals jump on.'
'BUT IF you want more I understand that and fully recognize your right to ask for more, I just won't be able to be your advocate in the same way.'
Being an advocate for one thing doesn't mean you have to be an opponent of any other alternative.
Are you arguing that voting and acting against marriage equality in the first place is a positive assertion that is not adversarial, but voting and acting to reverse marriage equality is negative and adversarial?
I fail to see the distinction.
When has he acted 'against marriage equality' rather than just saying he was 'for marriage is exclusively heterosexual'? There is a difference - to be 'against marriage equality' it would first have to exist as more than a theoretical potential...
but voting and acting to reverse marriage equality is negative and adversarial?
And there is the difference: marriage equality now exists - this is no longer about maintaining a historical status quo or denying an expansion of a definition but talking about taking away established constitutional rights from some citizens of California.
Saying you won't advocate creating something new and saying you won't advocate taking away something already in existence are two different not incompatible things.
Again, read the Advocate article. He just isn't going to be an advocate for marriage equality - if it happens in spite of that well 'how very nice for you'.
Ummmm. Wasn't homosexuality a mental illness just a few years ago?
Speaking of animals, didn't I read on the Web (Drudge?) that some Hindus married their son or daughter to a dog (pig?) just a few months ago? I believe the pig acted as sort of a placeholder for a while. Aren't we supposed to celebrate America's different cultures and not discriminate based on religion?
Perhaps most importantly, where does all of this leave us regarding the next big marriage issue: polygamy? And then child marriage? Child marriages have been around for thousands of years as have polygamous marriages.
Since America is all about The Rule of Law and not the Judeo-Christian tradition (or any other tradition, for that matter) all we have to do is change the law.
Translated:
I'm with you guys, trust me. I just can't be hanging out there supporting gay marriage. We both know I can't get elected if I do, and let's face it, there are tons of you gay men who don't want gay marriage anyway (divorce is SO messy), but do want a share of the "marriage loot" that would come with civil unions.
So let's compromise, shall we? I'll go out on a limb for civil unions, but you have to push for gay marriage. OK?
"Clunky attempt at changing the subject, caliban."
How does it change the subject when someone says "once upon a time" and I ask whether he's seriously proposing a return to that timeframe?
@Big Bill:
"Wasn't homosexuality a mental illness just a few years ago?"
Only as much as the Earth was the center of the solar system a few centuries ago. In both cases, the prevailing opinion was WRONG, and we corrected it. Homosexuality was never a mental illness, and the Earth was never the center of the solar system, no matter what people used to say.
They also used to say that the lungs extended into the penis to inflate it when you got an erection, and that blacks were not really human beings but animals, and that communism was a viable economic system. All of those things were wrong, and they've been proven wrong. Just because they were said doesn't make them any less wrong.
"Perhaps most importantly, where does all of this leave us regarding the next big marriage issue: polygamy? And then child marriage?"
The former presents no difficulty; I'm for it. The latter depends on one's definition of "child". I believe the age of majority should be lowered to 14 nationwide, allowing "children" of that age to drive, vote, drink, and enter into contracts - including the formal contract of marriage, and the informal contract of sexual consent - just like any 21 year old today.
This is based on the realities of recent neurological research: the brain after puberty does not "mature" until roughly the age of 26, and there's no appreciable continuum of development. Effectively, when you hit puberty, you become "an adolescent" for the next twelve to fourteen years... at which point you rather rapidly become "an adult". Our current laws allow adolescents to pursue certain desires at arbitrary points, when the biological evidence clearly shows that 16, 18, and 21 are no more mature than 14.
It's the under-14 issue that gets thorny. I don't believe that giving 14 year olds the OPTION to enter into intimate relationships with any and all adults will dramatically increase the number of them who do; most of them are probably not terribly interested in anyone over the age of 19 anyway. So the bugaboo of a man in his fifties going all to pieces with some teenage girl is probably not going to happen with any statistically significant frequency. But when you go below 14, you start to get that whole parent/child "you must obey" thing going on.
So I'd lean toward saying that any intimate relationship between an adult and someone under 14 is inherently a case of coercion, intentional or not, so we should prohibit it. That said, I don't see any real problem with an adult who agrees to enter a marriage contract with someone CURRENTLY a child AFTER that child reaches the age of majority. Provided there is no sexual relationship prior to that, I don't think we can interfere with this practice.
Note that no part of this position is based on anything being "icky" or "immoral" or "sinful". It's all about the scientific realities of human biological and psychological development. I think we can draw lines based entirely on these grounds, and come out with a reasonable assurance that we haven't done anything stupid.
You know, like declaring homosexuality a mental illness, which had nothing to do with pathology and everything to do with cultural pressure.
That's why I always laugh when I seem some wingnut saying that Obama is against 'gay marriage' which just isn't true.
Ah and I'd reply to your note but since its is off topic and been thoroughly refuted more times than I can count I won't bother and than for the fun of pointing out that biblically the age of sexual consent for females was 12, males 13 years old. Judeo-Christians are positively perverts compared with the idea of letting consenting contractable adults license the civil contract with someone who would qualify 50% of a married couple in any licensed marriage in the US today. ;)
Saying "marriage is exclusively heterosexual" is an act against marriage equality. But, more specifically, re-read his response to Joe Solmonese quoted by Dale. I concur with Dale's analysis ("I read this to mean that Obama would oppose a bill in a state legislature to permit same-sex couples to marry").
read the Advocate article.
Obama's reply to "you’re asking same-sex couples to [wait their turn] by favoring civil unions over marriage" is non-responsive because he ascribes a different meaning to "wait your turn" than the questioner intended. "Wait your turn" does not mean (as Obama claims) telling gays what they should fight for. Of course, "wait your turn" means the effect of his public policy position on people's lives.
this is no longer about maintaining a historical status quo or denying an expansion of a definition but talking about taking away established constitutional rights from some citizens of California
That was Dale's second plausible distinction. Dale makes a good case against this distinction, not the least of which Obama hasn't argued for it.
Only a theoretical one - marriage equality doesn't exist in most states.
Of course, "wait your turn" means the effect of his public policy position on people's lives.
Which in the case of a state that did what California did would be nothing at all. He would say 'I think marriage should be between a man and a woman' and California would say 'sorry that's unconstitutional in our state - aren't we glad the feds don't tell us inside our own state what marriage is and isn't?' And he would reply 'Well you're right. Thank goodness I got rid of that DOMA so you and your spouse, whatever contract you might have, can now access your Social Security benefits eh?'
Dale makes a good case against this distinction, not the least of which Obama hasn't argued for it.
Hmmmm when has he put out a detailed position paper on why he he's against the amendment at all? Why in the world would he on an issue like this? He mentioned it was against "the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution", which the effort is whether no matter what right it is trying to remove from just a segment of the California citizenry. I can be against superstition without thinking its right to amend a constitution to make practitioners of it second-class citizens. He could be against it on that reason alone so the issue itself really doesn't even matter. But again, why in the world would he come out and say it? What possible significant political good would it do for him or anyone who supports him.
Again, I don't see the confusion:
• Being perfectly clear on his stance on this particular issue will be a negative politically no matter how far it actually goes. So maybe expressing faux-confusion by those supporting 'someone else' would be a way to try and make his stance a more valuable negative political tool.
• What he has said he will do will probably lead to equal pair-bond rights for same gender couples on the federal level regardless of if you are in a domestic partnership, civil union, or marriage. I like bread so much that I really do think half a loaf of bread of this quality is better than none - and shoot I might even end up with a full one anyway.
• Someone can think a constitutional amendment that kludges unequal rights into a state constitution can be 'divisive and discriminatory' no matter what their underlying position is on the subject it covers. I mean this isn't finding a rationale justification for its proscription, its carving out an exception that only effects some citizens for something about which there is in active debate. Be like a constitution saying 'all men are created equal' and adding in with a ballpoint 'except for blondes'.
From everything I've read he would prefer that marriage be between a man and a woman. Try as you might for him to give you a detailed reason why and how far that preference is carved in stone I don't think he will, and he'd lose points as far as I'm concerned if he did. He's trying to win an election here - take a clue from what he will go come out and say he's for (reversing DADT, getting rid of DOMA to the extent that it will allow 'alternative' married couples federal access) and what he won't do (support discriminatory amendments that actually would encode his preference in constitutions) and figure it out from there.
:kids:
I've been watching Obama since about 2004. I thought he was quite likely the best choice for President. Then he actually said "hey, I think I'll run for the nomination" and began making speeches that worried me. I always sort of hoped that the vagueness of those speeches really did mean he still held the positions I liked, rather than being a simple weasel tactic to avoid being called inconsistent or a flip-flopper.
And as the election draws closer, in an effort to discredit Obama and lower his chances, the Republicans are shining a nice bright light on all the evidence that Obama really is just saying what needs to be said to win the election - while doing what needs to be done for the good of the country.
Which makes me quite happy. As a Republican, I'm very pleased that the Republican party has so nicely dispelled my concerns about Obama, doing a great service for me and for my country by assuring me I've made the right decision... even if he will have a (D) next to his name on the ballot.
Politics is so deliciously complicated.
That's the right answer, and I don't hold that against him. But let's stop the charade that he has a logically consistent position.
Those questions should be answered based on conception rights also. Do we want to allow people to have conception rights with more than one person at a time, as a matter of public policy? Do we want to allow children to conceive, as a matter of public policy? If we do, then we should certainly allow marriage to couples that we allow to conceive children together. But, if we want to say that children should not be allowed to intentionally become parents, or (its a separate question) that adults should not be allowed to have children with more than one person at once, then we should not (for the first time in history) have "marriages" that are not allowed to have children together, or that are in any way discouraged from exercising their natural right to conceive children together, using their own genes.
This, David, is my point (thanks for asking): marriage should be for couples that are allowed, approved, accepted, permitted to conceive children from their own genes. Creating children for same-sex couples from their own genes is now possible, but it requires modifying the genes of at least one of the parents so that they no longer match that person's genome. Those changes will be unacceptably risky to try in humans (<%1 success rate in mice) but the issues are deeper than risk, which is present in every pregnancy and activity. The bigger issues are the changes to society and government and rights that allowing genetic engineering would bring. The same-sex marriage debate should come down to the genetic engineering debate, because same-sex conception requires, in principle, genetic engineering.