The Volokh Conspiracy

Tribe on Kennedy v. Louisiana:

Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe has an interesting article in today's WSJ on the Supreme Court's decision invalidating the death penalty for child rape and its potential reconsideration by the Court. Here's a taste:

Emphasizing the evolving character of what constitutes an "unusual" if not an unduly "cruel" punishment, the court rested its condemnation of executing the rapists of children largely on what it described as a trend away from the use of death to punish such crimes both here and abroad.

But there was a problem with the court's understanding of the basic facts. It failed to take into account — because nobody involved in the case had noticed — that in 2006 no less an authority than Congress, in the National Defense Authorization Act, had prescribed capital punishment as a penalty available for the rape of a child by someone in the military.

Defenders of the court's decision in Kennedy v. Louisiana would have it ignore that embarrassing wrinkle by treating the military as a parallel universe that simply does not intersect civilian justice on the plane of constitutional principle. But a court searching for universal principles of justice in the name of the Eighth Amendment would be hard pressed to accept that view of the military/civilian distinction. Particularly when the court's division tracks the usual liberal/conservative divide, its credibility depends on both candor and correctness when it comes to the factual predicates of its rulings.

At this point, I think even those who support the original ruling recognize the need for the Court to reconsider its Kennedy decision, even if only to correct the record, and make explicit the actual basis for the Court's decision.

UPDATE: Why "correct the record" if the outcome of the case would be the same? I can think of several reasons. Among other things, the Supreme Court's decision is binding on lower courts, so it is important that its analysis is based upon a correct statement of the law. Furthermore, if (as many suspect) the purported existence of a "national consensus" on the death penalty for child rape had little to do with the Court's holding, the Court should say so, particularly now that the factual basis for the "national consensus" argument has been undermined. If the law of the land is that those punishments that a majority of the Supreme Court finds objectionable or disproportionate when imposed for certain crimes, then the Court should make that clear.

At Bench Memos, Ed Whelan has additional thoughts on Tribe's op-ed, particularly Tribe's . . . um . . . interesting suggestion that the Kennedy opinion could raise equal protection issues.

corneille1640 (mail):
I apologize if this point has been raised before on another of the many threads on this topic (disclosure: I have an a priori bias against the death penalty):

Isn't there a question of fairness when it comes to reconsidering a decision to deny application of the death penalty? In other words, if the highest court in the land, in effect, "commutes" a death sentence and then reconsiders its commutation, that seems, to me, a bit cruel. Of course, we are dealing with someone for whom I am not inclined to have much sympathy.

I realize that courts don't "commute" sentences (it's my understanding that that is the prerogative of the executive branch). I also realize that my concern doesn't address the legal issue or the question about basing a decision on a supposed "national consensus." But what do people think about the fairness of reconsidering this decision?
7.31.2008 10:24am
ejo:
the explicit reason, actually admitted to honestly, would make it look like an ass and collection of pompous windbags. expect a one line denial.
7.31.2008 10:35am
Jim at FSU (mail):
Our 8th amendment jurisprudence is not actually based on the 8th amendment anymore. It appears to be some sort of vague calculation based on the likely political backlash, how many prisoners it takes off death row and so on.

As far as I am concerned, the 8th amendment doesn't set any limits on what crimes are death penalty eligible. At the time it was drafted, nearly every felony was DP eligible. The restriction was always on the modes of punishment. Degrading and sadistic punishments (especially executions through torture) are forbidden by the 8th amendment. Nothing more.

The modern notion that you have to murder someone to be hanged is entirely inconsistent with the original understanding of the 8th amendment and last time I checked, nobody had used Article V to change this.
7.31.2008 10:51am
Jim at FSU (mail):
I'm not saying we should execute people for theft or rape, it is just that no legal basis for forbidding it comes from the 8th amendment. People were being executed for such crimes at the time the 8th amendment was ratified and such executions continued in the public view without the slightest controversy until the 20th century. Clearly our current understanding of the 8th amendment is a modern invention.

Again, what happened to changing the constitution through Article V?
7.31.2008 10:55am
George Weiss (mail) (www):
since when do we grant rehearing just to 'correct the record?' what a crock-this sort of ting happens all the time in lower courts-its called harmless error.

if the issue wont change the outcome then there is no reason for appeal. the supreme court grants 1 in a zillon cases 1 hearing-should waste its time rehearing a case for the second time over a technical error.
7.31.2008 11:02am
FantasiaWHT:
I'm in the middle of critiquing law review write-on submissions on Kennedy v. Louisiana (or, as one hapless applicant referred to it throughout his entire Decision Analysis, Kennedy v. Virginia).

It's interesting to see their takes on whether reconsideration will be granted, and whether it will have any effect. None I've read so far have considered arguments on both side of the picture, sadly.

Question - can anybody get what the voting breakdown was on passing this? Obviously, it was at least half, so the argument could be made that at least half of the elected representatives of all the states favor DP for child rape. On the other hand, if I understand correctly, this provision was buried inside a much larger, general defense bill, so its existence may have been overlooked, or outweighed by other considerations supporting passage of the bill.
7.31.2008 11:07am
Hoosier:
Jim at FUS: "I'm not saying we should execute people for theft or rape, it is just that no legal basis for forbidding it comes from the 8th amendment. "

Like corneille1640, I bring a bias against the death penalty to the debate. Yet your point is one that I can't refute. I find myself in the position of someone whose opposition to the death penalty stems largely from his religious background: No doubt in my mind that a Catholic needs to be at least highly skeptical about the legitimacy of capital punishment. But intellectual honesty prevents me from concluding that CP is unconstitutional. The opposite, in fact, from my reading of the Constitution.

But what if--hypothetically--the Court hears this case agsin, and this time Kennedy says that the new standards against CP for child rape is "obvious"? Does that take care of it?
7.31.2008 11:07am
Hoosier:
"are" obvious

Obviosuly.
7.31.2008 11:09am
Jim at FSU (mail):
I think you have me confused with someone else. I wasn't one of the obvious thread participants.

Checking wikipedia (which is a crappy source, I know) I see we were executing people in the 1960s for rape, robbery, assault, kidnapping. If you go back to the 1940s, we were still executing people for burglary. Coker v Georgia turned a willfully blind eye towards centuries of tradition and jurisprudence pointing the other direction. "Evolving standards of decency" is the biggest legal fabrication since someone decided that "substantive due process" wasn't an oxymoron.
7.31.2008 11:17am
Hoosier:
Jim at FSU--Nope. I wasn't confusing you with anyone. Just trying to tie two threads together.
7.31.2008 11:24am
jagbn:
Jim at FSU hits the nail on the head. The mere fact that a certain level of punishment into or out of legislative favor has no bearing on its constitutionality. "Evolving standards of decency" as applied to the Constitution should be measured only through amendment, not judicial fiat.
7.31.2008 11:24am
wfjag:

On the other hand, if I understand correctly, this provision was buried inside a much larger, general defense bill, so its existence may have been overlooked, or outweighed by other considerations supporting passage of the bill.


I don't believe that is an entirely accurate assertion. The provision was added as part of amendments to Art. 120, UCMJ, 10 USC 920, included in the overall Bill. There was a lot of focus upon and discussion of those amendments (at least within DoD and the Services' JAG Corps). Extending CP to an offense not resulting in the victim's death was hotly debated, and had been the subject of discussion for several years prior to 2006. The provision was not something either just slipped in or not vigorously debated for quite a while before proposed or enacted.

However, whether members of Congress (or their staffs) read the bill or were aware that CP for child rape was being authorized, are different questions.
7.31.2008 11:32am
John (mail):
Now might be a good time for Kennedy to use a quote from Justice Frankfurter when he changed his mind on an issue:

"Wisdom too often never comes, and so one ought not to reject it merely because it comes late."

Henslee v. Union Planters Bank and Trust Co., 335 U.S. 595, 600 (1949).
7.31.2008 11:37am
Prosecutorial Indiscretion:
Anybody else think Tribe's working to undermine the military/civilian distinction here for purposes of further eroding that distinction in the context of the Guantanamo Bay detainees?
7.31.2008 11:41am
Thomas.Loc.Gov:
The voting breakdown on the statute is available on Thomas. It was H.R. 1815 before it became Public Law 109-163. I don't know when the particular provision was added in the legislative process, but (1) House passed H.R. 1815, 390-39, (2) Senate passed unanimously with an amendment, (3) conference, (4) House agreed to conference report 374-41, and (5) Senate agreed to conference report by voice vote.
7.31.2008 11:43am
DangerMouse:
I think even those who support the original ruling recognize the need for the Court to reconsider its Kennedy decision, even if only to correct the record, and make explicit the actual basis for the Court's decision.

Make explicit the actual basis for the decision? Do you really want to read a line written by the Court that says: "We just flat out don't want the death penalty for rape of children even though nothing in the Constitution prohibits it, so we're telling you that you can't do it."

Do you think making explicit their reasoning will help here? Or are you assuming there's some actual legal basis for the decision? I'll give you a hint: there isn't.
7.31.2008 11:46am
stevesturm:
"make explicit the actual basis for the Court's decision."??? Do you really want them to do that? You want the truth? The truth is that the Justices decide the outcome they want, then go looking for a rationale that justifies it.

Having rested their rationale on a newly discovered to be false premise, Kennedy and the other four are in a bit of a bind. They had thought they had found something great (evolving standards), so much so that they didn't feel the need to justify their ruling on some other basis. And having done that, they can't now come out and say 'never mind' to the community standards rationale and go with something else (who knows what that would be?) as the basis for their decision. They're stuck with the argument they put forth, so they're going to have to dismiss and discount the UCMJ as somehow not being relevant to their decision.

The easiest thing for them to do is just to ignore this new information, but keep in mind the one thing they fear is the public rising up and refusing to go along with their rulings (like the Pope, they don't have any divisions); once the public ignores a decision (by, for example, executing a child rapist), their curtain is gone and they're exposed as nothing more than 9 people with a serious power complex. Because of this, they'll likely be leery of just refusing to address this issue, especially given the number and caliber of those arguing that they need to address it. They need, for their own sakes, to make us (or, at least the opinion makers) thinking the Justices aren't just making it up as they go along.
7.31.2008 11:50am
john w. (mail):
If I were the State of Louisiana, I wouldn't dream of trying to challenge the all-knowing wisdom of the Supreme Court. I'd just commute the guy's sentence to life in prison, turn him loose in the general prison population, and wait for Justice to take its natural course.
7.31.2008 12:06pm
Jim at FSU (mail):
There are many ways that criminals can end up dead. The more criminals that move through our revolving door prison system without receiving proper punishment or rehabilitation, the more likely it becomes for them to have repeat violent confrontations with potential victims and/or police.

It would be ironic if evolving standards in self defense law combined with evolving standards of capital punishment law to produce a system with a high rate of summary executions. Of course, this would hardly be the first time that some government elite has forbidden a popular tradition and thus relinquished control over the subsequent black market.
7.31.2008 12:23pm
srg:
George Weiss,

One reason that this might not be just an insignificant technical error is that the mistake undermines the argument that the death penalty for child rape is "unusual." To be unconstitutional, it has to be BOTH cruel and unusual.
7.31.2008 12:38pm
Deoxy (mail):

make explicit the actual basis for the Court's decision.


As others have pointed out, that would be something like this:

"Because we f---ing OWN your worthless peasants a--, so shut your d-- mouth and do what we say! That's why!!"

To be unconstitutional, it has to be BOTH cruel and unusual.


rofl rofl rofl...

I completely agree with you, and anyone with basic reading comprehension would as well. Note that the SCOTUS hasn't held that position in at least decades, now.

No, those two statements to not conflict - see my point above about "actual basis".
7.31.2008 12:51pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Bork once commented he'd met a judge who, upon being introduced to a SCOTUS justice said, more or less, I'm glad to have met you. I've just sworn to uphold your next brain fart.
Something like that.
7.31.2008 1:08pm
ejo:
all the more reason for the statement that a "living constitution" is essentially a meaningless constitution.
7.31.2008 1:14pm
Sarcastro (www):
Sweet Jebus do I hate the Constitution and Marbury v. Madison. Cause that frikken SCOTUS keeps making decisions I disagree with.

And by disagree I mean they are Obviously Wrong To All. Any who says the SCOTUS isn't wrong has an agenda. Not like me, I have a direct line to Objective and Virtuous Truth.

Good thing states can kill people in prison whenever they want. State governments blatantly breaking the law, that'll show the SCOTUS! And kill some criminals! It's win-win!
7.31.2008 1:18pm
George Weiss (mail) (www):
srg:

im sure an argument could be made to change the outcome of the decision based on this correction.

the reality however is that the justices who voted for the way they did will probably not be swayed. it is only 1 jurisdiction-and it takes the juristictions which had the death penalty for child rape from 6 to 7 out of the 50 states, dc, and the regular (non military federal jurisdiction). It is also a jurisdiction which is highly atypical.

im not sure i disagree with the decision-or agree with it-im neutral. but you have to be a realist about how the judges decided. 8th amendment is a pretty nebulous thing-not a lot of solid case law defining what is or is not cruel and unusual. (probably becuase its something not very measurable).
7.31.2008 1:35pm
srg:
George Weiss:

Very good points. I think maybe you overstated the case in your first post by using the word "crock" and referring to the error as merely "technical," but I see your point now. I would say it is not "unusual," and not in all cases "cruel," but that is a subjective judgment.
7.31.2008 1:41pm
PersonFromPorlock:
stevesturm:

And having done that, they can't now come out and say 'never mind' to the community standards rationale and go with something else (who knows what that would be?) as the basis for their decision.

Why can't they? A Court that can go from Wickard to Lopez to Raich surely isn't much troubled by "the hobgoblin of little minds."
7.31.2008 1:42pm
Sarcastro (www):
PersonFromPorlock has wisely pointed out the the Court's opinions have changed since World War 2.

This inconsistency is proof the Court is our Tyrannical Overlord, ruling us all with 18 Iron Fists.
7.31.2008 1:51pm
ShelbyC:

PersonFromPorlock has wisely pointed out the the Court's opinions have changed since World War 2.


Funny, the relevant portions of the constitution haven't.
7.31.2008 2:12pm
Malvolio:
I don't understand how the standard is expected to evolve if the Supreme Court pounds down every innovation as "unusual".

I'm guessing they wouldn't throw out unusually lenient punishment, so it could evolve towards coddling.
To be unconstitutional, it has to be BOTH cruel and unusual.
The Amendment reads "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

I think this can be read (by the literal-minded) two ways. If I wrote, "I don't eat peas and carrots", wouldn't most people interpret that to mean I don't eat either peas or carrots?

Even if you do interpret "cruel and unusual punishments" as "punishments that are cruel and unusual" not "cruel punishments and unusual punishments", it still strikes me that any punishment that is unexpectedly harsh is ipso facto cruel. (I don't think the penalty Kennedy was supposed to get was cruel because anyone would expect a very, very harsh penalty for child-rape: he couldn't have been hoping to be let off with a fine.)
7.31.2008 2:25pm
Sarcastro (www):
ShelbyC, Well then the Supreme Court should never change!

And cruel and unusual punishments is not a term of art! We need to analyze it carefully to show just how wrong the Supreme Court is!
7.31.2008 2:38pm
Bored Lawyer:

Anybody else think Tribe's working to undermine the military/civilian distinction here for purposes of further eroding that distinction in the context of the Guantanamo Bay detainees?


It's possible, but the comparison is weak. Child rape by a civilian is hardly different from child rape by a member of the military. The activity has little to do with how a military functions or the prosecution of war. If a member of the military were to be prosecuted for child rape, that is simply a jurisdictional accident of where the crime occured and/or by whom.

OTOH, one can easily distinguish enemy combatants captured in battle from ordinary civilian criminals arrested for violating the criminal code.
7.31.2008 2:38pm
PersonFromPorlock:
Sarcastro:

This inconsistency is proof the Court is our Tyrannical Overlord, ruling us all with 18 Iron Fists.

Make that "18 Iron Fists of Whimsy" and you might have a point.
7.31.2008 2:41pm
PC:
I strongly support basing civilian criminal law on military criminal law. Article 134 may be interesting to implement on the civilian populace, but my conservative, limited government sensibilities tell me that it will make us safer.
7.31.2008 3:03pm
Jim at FSU (mail):
Cruel and Unusual Punishment is a term of art. The problem is that the supreme court tossed aside the meaning that term of art had for the previous 4 centuries (since incorporation into the English Bill of Rights) and chose a new definition for it.

Article V sets a high bar for altering the body of law represented by the Constitution. The change in Coker v Georgia was not prompted by any such change. "Evolving standards of decency" was a straight and obvious ipse dixit to depart from centuries of contrary jurisprudence and history, not to mention barely paying lip service to the text of the Constitution.
7.31.2008 4:09pm
Jim at FSU (mail):
Whoops, miscounted centuries. Cruel and Unusual Punishment had only been a term of art for just under 3 centuries at the time Coker was decided.
7.31.2008 4:12pm
wfjag:

I strongly support basing civilian criminal law on military criminal law. Article 134 may be interesting to implement on the civilian populace, but my conservative, limited government sensibilities tell me that it will make us safer.


How would that work? Art. 134, UCMJ, 10 USC 934, assimilates non-capital crimes and offenses from the surrounding civilian jurisdiction. Also, it provides for crimes that are offenses against good order and discipline (my personal favorate being "Abuse of a Public Animal" -- there's an old case involving a chicken, and "No", you don't really want to know what was done to the chicken).
7.31.2008 4:14pm
Thomas_Holsinger:
I support the death penalty and disagree with the holding in Kennedy v. Louisiana, but do not believe that a rehearing is necessary or even appropriate. Nor do I believe that consideration of the overlooked UCMJ penalty would, or should, change the outcome (because I believe it was wrongly decided ab initio).

Plausible and perhaps even compelling arguments could be made that the Kennedy v. Lousiania decision does not bar the death penalty provision in this UCMJ offense given the special nature of the armed forces. The consititutionality of this provision merits separate consideration, and it certainly is not presently before the Court.
7.31.2008 4:27pm
Thomas_Holsinger:
Bored Lawyer,

Are you familiar with the term, "under color of official right"? Or the California holding that the public entity employers of law enforcement officers are vicariously liable for rapes committed by their officers who secure their victims under color of official authority?

Analogies to those apply here. It is appropriate for the UCMJ to apply greater penalties than normally applicable to civilians for servicemen convicted of use of their service-issued weapons to deter or eliminate resistance in the course of raping children. Whether such greater penalities should include death is an appropriate issue, but whether greater penalties should be applied to servicemen than civilians for some offenses was held constitytional long ago.
7.31.2008 4:42pm
Thomas_Holsinger:
oops, make that "could be applied", not "should be applied"
7.31.2008 4:51pm
Dave N (mail):
Hoosier,

As you undoubtedly know (since we are both regulars here), I am not only a death penalty proponent, I am a death penalty prosecutor. I may even be the only person posting here who has witnessed an actual execution (I have witnessed 4, including once when I actually stood next to the executioner).

In any event, I respect your opposition to capital punishment just as I respect any other abolitionist in that regard. I respect any legislature that chooses to amend its criminal code to abolish the death penalty. What I do not respect is the Supreme Court making a policy decision as a matter of Constitutional law. Policy is for the Legislative and Executive Branches--not Justice Kennedy's concept of "evolving standards of decency."
7.31.2008 5:25pm
Irked by Tribe:
Ed Whelan's post about Tribe saying that Obama was his best student ever in 30 years of teaching at Harvard Law led me to post a comment, above, about how Tribe's statement is demonstrably false -- a flat-out lie -- given that Obama complained during law school about the grade Tribe gave him, which was no better than an A-. Thus, judged by Tribe's own blind grading of Obama's work while Obama was a student, hundreds of students did better than Obama. To read my full comment, click here.
7.31.2008 5:58pm
Hoosier:
Dave N: Well, I agree with you.

My uncle was a career prosecutor who worked exclusively on multiple-homicide appeals. (After his clerkship, he spent his career in Cook County, so there was plenty to keep him busy. Unfortunatley.)

He opposed capital punishment on pragmatic grounds. And I'm sure his devout Catholicism played a role in his thinking. But his decision was that he would see that the law was enforced, and he was comfortable with the fact that he was not the Law Giver. Knowing what the possible penalty was, juries had found the convicts guilty. As he saw it, it was not up to him, or to any judges, to undo that law and that decision purely because they had other views of justice.

I would not have been able to do what he did. But that's my shortcoming, not his.
8.1.2008 12:45am
Harvard Hater (mail):
Commentators on a slightly earlier post, by Jim Lindgren, on issues concerning Obama and Tribe asked me to post a video of a 2005 speech by Tribe which has disappeared from Harvard's servers. I linked to that video in 2005 in a post on Free Republic, and downloaded a copy at that time. For context, see here: http://volokh.com/posts/1217534721.shtml#408640.

Comments are now closed on that Lindgren post. Because "Irked by Tribe" cross-posted here (see 2 comments, above), I figure this is as good a place as any to put a link to the video of Tribe "outing" Chief Justice John Roberts as merely an "A-" student (apparently the same grade Tribe gave Obama, who he says was his best student ever).

Anyway, I've done a 7-minute snippet of the speech Tribe gave on Constitution Day, 2005, part of which was devoted to attacks on Roberts. Tribe expressed some concerns about "this fellow," who Tribe went out of his way to say got only an "A-" in his class. Basically accusing Roberts of having put on an act at his confirmation hearing, Tribe complained that the "Roberts persona" supplied "few inferences" on his fitness to be Chief Justice -- "nothing there," "a blank," etc. Tribe suggested the burden of proof regarding whether Roberts should be confirmed should lie on those favoring confirmation. At the very end of this snippet, Tribe suggested the burden should be especially heavy because the particular President who had nominated Roberts also appointed "Brownie" to head FEMA, and wasn't really elected President, anyway (apparently as of 2005 Tribe hadn't gotten over losing Bush v. Gore). Classy guy.

Youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVt2dH7d69k.

If anyone's interested in the full video, I'd be happy to upload it somewhere for all to enjoy, but you'd have to find a website able to handle a 567MB video file.

--Harvard Hater" (name sez it all!)
8.1.2008 5:30pm
eyesay:
1. cruel and unusual = cruel + unusual
People seem to think that “cruel and unusual” is a term of art, but it actually means no more than the sum of its component three words.

2. Cruelty is in the eye of the beholder, or in the body and mind of the one receiving the punishment, and it can reasonably be understood to be measured in proportion to the crime. In particular, a reasonable person might find the death penalty to be cruel punishment for rape, but not cruel punishment for murder.

3. Unusual means “un” + “usual.” Therefore, if a punishment is never or rarely imposed, it becomes unusual, if it was not already.

Why are so many people here having so much problem with “cruel and unusual”? Inherent in the meanings of “cruel” and “unusual” are contemporary standards. This inherency is built into the language in which the Bill of Rights was written. Even an “originalist“ ought to recognize this, but people continue to blather in these comments as if the fact that horses were not unusual sources of vehicle propulsion in 1789 means that horse-powered vehicles are not unusual on today's urban expressways. Likewise, in 1789, it would not have been cruel to deny antibiotics to a prisoner suffering from pneumonia, because antibiotics hadn't been discovered yet, but today, it would be unthinkably cruel to deny antibiotics to a prisoner suffering from pneumonia.

Meanings evolve. Originalism is a crock and always has been, especially but not only apropos of the 8th Amendment.
8.1.2008 7:22pm
markm (mail):
Johnathan: Why should the meaning of "cruel and unusual" matter in this case at all? The death penalty is either cruel and unusual for all crimes, not just murder, or it's not. What's actually claimed here is that death is an excessive punishment for child rape, but (unfortunately) I can't see where the US Constitution and its amendments forbade excessive nonmonetary punishments.

(It may seem like a bizarre result that the constitution forbids a $10,000 fine for jaywalking, but not ten years in prison - but unless I missed some relevant text elsewhere, that's what the 8th Amendment says.)
8.2.2008 4:21pm