This post updates my post yesterday, reporting that the University of Chicago Law Faculty never voted a tenure offer to Barack Obama. I have now further nailed down the story.
I have now spoken or corresponded with 7 members of the University of Chicago law faculty, including several of the most powerful members of the faculty in the 1998-2003 period. For each year in that period, I believe that I have spoken to at least one from the following group of people who would know if Barack Obama had been vetted for an appointment with immediate tenure: appointments chair, appointments committee member, or dean. I have been purposely inclusive in this list to avoid identifying my sources.
None of the 7 Chicago law faculty I interviewed or corresponded with were consulted about an Obama tenured offer, none of them remember any discussion of hiring Obama with immediate tenure, and some of them couldn’t believe that anyone would even attempt such a move, since it would have been a “nonstarter.” If Obama had been vetted by the faculty before he was approached about an offer with immediate tenure, every member of the apppointments committee that year would be likely to remember it. I suspect that the group least likely to believe the story that the Chicago faculty was consulted and favored a tenured offer to Barack Obama is the University of Chicago Law School faculty.
I should say that two very prominent members of the faculty emailed me to express their doubt that a tenured offer had ever been vetted with the faculty. Both are campaign donors to Obama. My own supposition is that they supported my reporting because they did not want the academic public to get the wrong idea about Chicago’s tenure standards. One prominent faculty member wrote me that he had not been consulted by Dan Fischel about a tenured offer for Obama, “nor does [Dan] recall the whole thing with any certainty.”
Dan was a law school classmate of mine and a great dean at Chicago, and he is one of the most brilliant and influential law and economics scholars ever. I think his memory just failed him this time (as it sometimes does for many of us).
Many non-academic readers of this blog may not have understood why this was such an implausible story in the first place. In any event, now I’ve talked to enough Chicago faculty that this story can be safely put to bed.
Related Posts (on one page):
- Evidence Now Clear That Barack Obama Was Not Widely Vetted for a Tenured Offer at Chicago.--
- The University of Chicago Law Faculty Never Voted a Tenure Offer to Barack Obama.--
- My Comment on Obama's Teaching Materials
- Obama as a Law Teacher.--
- Obama at Chicago:
Thanks and thank you for your diligence on this story.
But, as a U.Chi. law graduate I am relieved that tenure was not being handed out as easily as suggested in the Times article.
Tribe's statement is provably false. Obama of course got excellent grades overall, graduating magna, but he did no better than an A- in Tribe class. How do I know? I overlapped with Obama at Harvard Law School and once heard him express disappointment that he didn't get a better grade in Tribe's class. I can't recall the precise details (which at the time of course didn't seem significant) but I'm certain Obama got either a B+ or an A-, and an A- is my best guess. To graduate magna, one has to have slightly above an A- average. Thus, the grade Tribe gave Obama actually pulled down Obama's grade average.
Assuming Obama got an A-, that's a decent grade from Tribe, but hardly superlative. My estimate is that of the 130 or 140 students in his class, each year Tribe typically gave maybe 1 or 2 an A+, and maybe 10 to 15 a straight A. Extrapolated across 30 years of teaching that means at least a couple dozen students got an A+ from Tribe, and at least 200 or 300 got a straight A, so that judging by Tribe's blind grading of Obama's work, it's a flat-out lie for Tribe to rate him as his best student ever.
This tidbit has irked me for some time, but didn't strike me as that big a deal until I read Whelan's post linking to a Boston Globe questionnaire filled out by Obama's campaign listing Tribe as one of Obama's 4 principal legal advisers (Question 11, here). The fact that one of Obama's top legal advisers is publicly dissembling about Obama's academic record and that Obama hasn't corrected the record seems concerning.
I hope reporters will take the trouble to contact Tribe to ask him, in light of his comments about Obama being his best student ever, exactly what grade he gave Obama. In the past, Tribe has been willing (even eager) to discuss grades given by him to students who end up being famous (e.g., here), so I don't see how he could decline to do so here. Has Obama released his law school transcript yet? That would provide an even more definitive way to settle this point.
There is another related post that probably should be linked: "Was Obama a 'professor?' "
Has it occurred to you that Tribe's extravagant praise and Amar's even more extravangant praise (Obama is a very good writer but Amar says he writes like Lincoln) might be tangentially related to a desire to serve on the Supreme Court?
Even if such motives are not conscious, ambitions can influence judgment even in the best of men.
I'm shocked by this development!
The NYT is now in the business of accepting singular claims as fact?
What about the "multiple layers" of fact checking we always hear about?
On computer screens -- and particularly on the VC main page, where bold type denotes the beginning of a new post -- lots and lots of bolding proves distracting to the human eye and disrupts the natural flow of reading.
Presumably his grade is based on a single exam, while Tribe's assessment of him as a student is based on much more than that.
The post is just silly because it seems to me that Tribe is in the best position to judge who his best student was. More importantly, even if your recollection of Obama's comments are accurate, Tribe said best student, not highest grade. The judgement of best student is subjective.
More disturbing is that you argue that this is an issue the press should be focusing on. Apart from the fact that what grade Obama got in one law school class probably ranks one millionth in a list of national concerns, is the idea that this is a point that needs settling. Obama did very well in law school. Tribe taught him and gave him a very high compliment. End of story. However, maybe it is an issue with that small chunk of the electorate which votes based solely upon a candidates blindly graded law school grades which is, according to you, being horribly duped into thinking that Obama got an A+ rather than an A- in his Con Law class.
I can see it now "Harvard Law Student Alums for Truth".
I apologize for being one of those people who posted multiple times. But those of us in academic life do take the matter of tenure very seriously. Getting tenure at a major research university can make your career. Being shot down for tenure can end a career, or set it on an undesirable track.
With the years many of us put in to--in my case--get the PhD; do the series of visiting professorships; teach at the places with crappy pay and health benefits; learn research languages that you didn't know you'd need; all the while cranking out a book manuscript and trying simultaneously to have a marriage and family life . . . yes, the question of who gets tenure, and why, becomes important.
This is "obviously" the issue that kept the thread rolling, as Prof. L indicates in this post. Those of us in academia and those of us outside academia read this story in very different ways. I don't think, for what it's worth, that this says anything about Obama. But it does say something about Chicago. And I'm glad that it turned out the way it did.
Your facts might be 100% correct. But I want to point out, a matter of logic, that it's possible your claim is wrong, assuming a certain scenario (which I admit is unlikely).
Assume that Tribe gave Obama an A-. It's possible (although admittedly unlikely) that Tribe issued no higher grades in that class. Did you get a higher grade? You didn't say you did. In other words, it's possible that Obama was the best student in that class, even if he 'only' got an A-.
The next issue is that Tribe presumably issued higher grades (A and A+) in other classes. But grades are not an absolute standard. It's possible for standards to shift over time, for a variety of reasons. A professor can therefore claim that an A- he issued this year is worth more than an A+ he issued last year. That is, this year's A- student could be a better student than last years A+ student.
Another detail. I can also change my mind, and realize I made a mistake. For example, I can realize that last year's A+ should have been an A-.
Another detail. You heard Obama complain. Maybe he also complained to Tribe, and Tribe agreed to raise the grade.
I think there are a couple of issues to address before you get to the level of "provably false."
Actually, I was not plumbing motives -- simply pointing out that (crediting what I heard Obama say regarding his disappointing grade in Tribe's class, i.e., assuming he wasn't making up a "poor me" story out of false modesty, which I very much doubt), Tribe has in the past year made intentionally false factual statements in describing Obama as his "best student" ever. That's different than Tribe saying, as he did in the Concord paper Whelan quotes, and I believe has done elsewhere, that Obama was his most "exciting" research assistant ever, or best writer he ever worked with, etc., statements which involve more subjective impressions.
But now that you mention it, no, I don't think Tribe's statements praising Obama are consciously or unconsciously linked to a desire to serve on the Supreme Court. He should have been appointed in the early 90s instead of Breyer, but now he's clearly too old, even setting aside the gender issue (the first two slots almost surely will go to women). Possibly he's interested in other positions of influence in an Obama Administration, formal or informal, but my guess is Tribe's aggressively positive comments starting a year ago were mostly designed: (1) to help Obama obtain the momentum needed to get the nomination and have a shot at the presidency; and (2) perhaps not incidentally, to make sure everyone knows that Tribe's such an astute judge of talent that he identified Obama many years ago as destined for great things, and he has worked for years to help Obama achieve his destiny. Incidentally, I have no problem with either of these two motives for Tribe's various statements during the past year hyping Obama. My only problem is when puffery turns into outright lying, as I think it has with Tribe saying Obama was his "best student" ever, even though Obama got at most an A- -- a grade which, judging from Tribe's speech disclosing that this was Chief Justice Roberts's grade, Tribe is on record as saying isn't particularly impressive (again, on Tribe publicly "outing" Roberts as merely an A- student, see here; if anyone still has the video of that speech, please post to Youtube).
As to this: it speaks to my alma mater (and Dan Fischel's credibility and management skills specifically), and has nothing to do with Obama's clear merit as a teacher, confirmed by my own two-time experience.
Whom would you have a fact checker call? Perhaps the dean at the time?
Any reasonable reporter would accept that as a definitive source, albeit a mistaken one in this case.
With respect and appreciation for your reporting on this matter, is this post supposed to change what we think happend, or does it just reinforce what we already knew? Other than Fischel reportedly questioning his own memory, isn't this what we assumed from your last post? I'm not saying it's uninteresting, just that the headline and bolded section seem to imply some kind of breaking development. Am I missing something?
You're pointing to a freerepublic article that points to a dead link at legalaffairs.org. Do you have a better source?
It's funny you would ask that question, since one of your ideological twins has vigorously defended NYT for doing exactly that (in another context). Actually, he was defending NYT for doing something worse than that (printing a singular claim even after being warned it was false).
Gah! I hate it when my colleagues do that. Talk about opening the flood-gates.
I don't think it's nitpicking to point out the incongruity between Tribe stating that Obama's his "best student" ever and the fact that, based on blind grading, Tribe rated hundreds of other students higher than he rated Obama as a student. Especially if the first time Tribe ever made such a statement was after Obama announced for president, this nugget may link to broader criticisms of Obama and his allies for efforts to exaggerate his relatively thin resume (e.g., to depict him as a super-scholar due to being President of the Law Review even though it was a popularity contest, he apparently never published anything, his work received mixed reviews, etc., Obama's apparently skewed description in his autobiography about his New York corporate job, and various other points). Have McCain or his allies ever been accused to falsely depicting details of McCain's life? Evidence that Obama and his allies see a need to do so seems worthy of attention.
Compare what Tribe has said about Obama to what he said about Chief Justice Roberts. Both got an A- in Tribe's class (unless it turns out Obama got a B+). As to Roberts, Tribe (prefiguring one comment here) stated that Roberts's "grade didn't quite reflect his brilliance," and said it was a wonderful example he could use with students in the future that "You can actually get somewhere in this life if you get only an A minus in this course." Tribe could have done the same with Obama, saying he was another example of how far you can go with a less-than-impressive grade in Tribe's course. Instead, to date he's omitted any mention of the grade Obama actually earned, based on blind grading. Worse, he's stated quite inconsistently with that grade that Obama was supposedly the "best student" he ever had.
I may well be emphasizing this particular point too much, but I trust that some enterprising reporter or blogger will look into the matter to see what explanation Tribe and/or Obama have for the incongruity I have pointed out.
The author of the original NY Times story wrote:
"When the law school tried to hire Mr. Obama after his failed 2000 congressional race, it was for a tenured job, according to Daniel Fischel, the dean at the time. In our interview, I asked him if he meant “tenure-track,” and he said no. “He would be hired as a tenured professor,” he explained. The faculty would vote, but Mr. Obama already had their support, he added."
Obama Story
I think McCain's fancy shoes deserve exactly as much attention as Edwards' expensive haircut. Which did indeed receive a stunning amount of attention.
Thanks for that excellent piece on why tenure should be completely abolished.
Nathan_M said:I wonder what any of Tribe's A+ students would say about that?
As for the media and Obama, I was working out this a.m. and noticed what was on the six (6) big screen TV's the club has along the walls: Obama. Obama on every. Single. One.
One cut to an uncomplimentary still pic of McCain for about 1 1/2 seconds -- then went right to a McCain critic, who began critiquing McCain's ads.
Then, back to Obama.
I realize this is a totally nutty idea, but isn't it possible that one's grades might not always reflect one's quality as a student?
When I was in law school, I did a lot of things as a student that had no positive impact (and probably a negative impact) on my grades, like studying topics that wouldn't be on the exam. I guess I was more interested in the learning the law than getting good grades.
Crazy, I know.
Blind graded exams aren't anonymous transcripts.
I have no idea what kind of access HLS faculty have to student transcripts, but it's hard to believe Tribe couldn't get it for Obama or Roberts if he wanted it.
Exactly. I assume many professors check a student's grade in their class when they write him/her a recommendation.
Have you read the posts?
I, too, am concerned about the dead links on the Free Republic site. I assume you can find the Howard Bashman link in the archives at Bashman's current site. I am most interested, however, in the video itself which apparently was for at least a time on Harvard's servers (link is dead, as best I can tell). I have written the Free Republic poster asking him/her to please post the video on Youtube, if he or she has a copy. I got the e-mail on the home page of "Harvard Hater": it's harvardhater@ownmail.net. Perhaps others can e-mail, too. If there does exist a video of Tribe "outing" Roberts for getting only an A-, I don't see how Tribe can avoid commenting on the grade he gave Obama.
Thorley: I think the grading is blind until all the grades are handed in. After that point, I assume, the professors eventually get a list of which students got which grades. My dim recollection from law school is that at least some students who did really well in Tribe's class would get letters inviting them to do research for him. So clearly, Tribe at some point after grading Obama's exam learned what grade he had given Obama on blind grading.
My modest objective here was to report, for what it may be worth, my recollection of Obama not being happy with the grade Tribe gave him. I wasn't planning to have to spend a lot of time writing about it, or defending my decision to comment. If this point is actually of interest to people, I'd appreciate if others could look into the matter, try to get the video of Tribe's speech (if Harvard Hater doesn't have it, presumably Tribe or Harvard can supply it, unless they want to cover this up), ask Tribe about it, etc., so I don't have to comment further (though I will try to check back occasionally).
Yes. He is routinely described as a fighter pilot (by everyone, including and especially the 'liberal' media), even though that's not what he was. For details, start here and keep scrolling.
Has McCain signed SF-180 yet? His only executive experience was 13 months, 30 years ago, in a job he probably got via his daddy. And he's so proud of it he omitted it from the official campaign bio posted on his web site. We have few details on what happened during those 13 months. If McCain signed an SF-180, we would know a lot more. When Kerry ran (at least in part) on his war record, lots of people demanded that he sign the form. McCain is definitely running on his war record, and no one seems to care that most of those records are still secret. But we sure know a lot about Obama's birth certificate. And now you're asking for his HLS transcript.
Pointing out a possible incongruity is one thing. Calling it a lie is another. If LT said Obama wrote the best exam he'd ever seen, that would be a lie or faulty memory. But when he says Obama was the best student, unless you know what he means by "best student," you can't know it's a lie. So calling it a lie is a smear.
You're right that a lot of people in the GOP won't mind. Those are the folks who think family values are very important, except when it comes to their own family. It's striking to note that the 'family-values' party is the party that gave us our first (and only) divorced president, and is now trying to give us another one. Reminds me of that great bumper sticker: '4 out of 5 Republican divorcees and adulterers believe that gay marriage is a threat to the sacred institution of marriage.'
To repeat: The assumption underlying your attack is that the grade perfectly reflects the quality of the student.
I can think of many reasons why that assumption fails completely.
If Obama walked on water like he wants everyone to believe, he'd release his superlative grades. But he didn't get superlative grades, and if he released the unvarnished truth, his messiah's halo would suddenly be askew and folks would understand exactly how he'd failed upward so easily.
Or I could be wrong. If so, then let's see those grades. Shove 'em in my face and laugh. I'm waiting.
Damn right! And let's get Clarence Thomas' too! In fact, let's make all black public officials show us their grades so we can make sure they did not benefit from affirmative action.
He graduated Harvard Law school Magna Cum Laude, meaning in the top 10% of his class, based only on grades. How is that not proof of high grades?
No, I can't. Maybe you can. Let us know.
FWIW, I find the anecdote mildly interesting, and I support you for sharing it. But turning it into unwarranted conclusions is a different matter.
Let's cut to the chase. There is only one reason that McCain refuses to sign SF-180: he got to where he did through Admiral Action, not through merit.
Moreover, Obama was elected president of HLR because he won the backing of the conservative editors. Affirmative action? Really?
To Lindgren's parry about Fischel's management skills, I'd note the circumstances of his departure, as well as the litigation occasioned by that Clinic firing, but we don't need to dwell on the details.
And the voting citizens are entitled to every damn scrap of paper ever collected about a candidate. These aren't your next door neighbors signing up for a Thursday night bowling league. These are candidates for POTUS. We're entitled to vet them -- and we would, if the worthless media started doing its due diligence instead of pitching underhand nerf balls.
OTOH, maybe some folks would prefer to buy a pig in a poke.
the lord be praised. and now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
I'm not a huge fan of race-based affirmative action (I think it should be based on lack of income), but I can't ignore the irony behind this commonly-proffered conservative criticism of AA: That it causes people to question the qualifications of successful minorities.
How to create empirical support for this argument? Question the qualifications of all successful minorities!
Of course the unstated assumption underlying this attitude is explicitly racist: That no black person could have succeeded without AA.
I suppose, if you think that someone's high school transcript tells us something about their qualifications for president some 30 years after the fact...
Of course as pointed out above, Obama graduated HLS magna cum laude, putting him in the top 10% grade-wise. So weren't you pretty much PWNED there, Smokey?
I've posted here many times that there are numerous African Americans I would vote for in a heartbeat over any current, white political candidate. Among them: Walter E. Williams, Tom Sowell, Bill Cosby, Clarence Thomas, Lynn Swann, Deroy Murdock, Ken Blackwell, J.C. Watts and plenty of others.
As far as I know, they succeeded without Affirmative Action.
Unlike your HE-RO with the secret grades.
We now know that the second statement is false; a tenured offer was never vetted to the full appointments committee, let alone the faculty. Given Chicago's high standards, the ease of blocking appointments, and the views expressed to me in the last few days, it would have been almost impossible for Dan to get this one through.
The first statement may be true or false, but (according to one faculty member) Dan is now not certain of his memory. Given the unlikelihood of getting a tenured offer through, I wonder whether Dan made a contingent untenured offer, and somehow got confused about it later. We may never know about the first statement.
Funny, you actually believe that the ignorance on the part of the media, means they are not liberal. As if that somehow makes McCain more of a hero or something.
FYI:
Is Wes Clark not a Democrat? Or is he trying to build McCain up?
Is Rockefeller not a Democrat? Or is he trying to build McCain up?
You certainly are a simple minded individual.
Smokey,
Here is HLS's grading system. Note:
We know Obama graduated magna cum laude, so he must have graduated in the top 10% of his class, correct?
So what possible basis do you have for assuming Obama could only have succeeded because of affirmative action?
Since you quoted me, I want to make sure it is clear that I was being 100% sarcastic in that statement.
smokey, is the sneering really necessary?
it's already been pointed out several (dozen) times that obama's grades were better than those of at least 90% of his HLS peers, and yet you continue to insist that his grades are being kept secret. can you perhaps explain why this isn't sufficient information for you? would 99th percentile be impressive to you but not, say, 91st? what percentile (in blind grading, mind you) would persuade you that obama's academic success was not the result of unearned handouts?
and please. without the sneer.
Seriously, wouldn't that just be easier?
*Note: I find it continuously amusing that Obama was considered a "constitutional law professor" yet he doesn't understand, lied about, and can in no way articulate a coherent belief in the 2nd Amendment.
Obama was also Tribe's research assistant. For obvious reasons, law professors go after the best students they can get to be their research assistants. More to the point, they get a much longer, closer look at that student's ability than they can get from a three hour exam. In other words, Tribe has plenty of legitimate basis for forming his assessment. Calling it dishonest is unjustified and wrong.
very well. that's settled.
seriously though, your exasperation is silly. you seem not to notice that the obama defenders in this and other posts here are doing just that -- playing defense. perhaps in your real life you're surrounded by obama die-hards who approach you unsolicited and regale you with stories of their lord and saviour, but here, the general conversation always seems to go like this:
BLOG POST: i notice that barack obama is tall. he may be our tallest presidential candidate since bill clinton.
COMMENTER A: that's because he's a socialist, and also not very bright.
COMMENTER B: can you provide proof that he's a socialist, or that he's not very bright?
COMMENTER A: oh why can't we just proclaim obama the most super duper, smartest, most articulate "law professor*" ever and be done with it?
of course, the discourse is rarely that high-level (with the exception of the initial posts, which are usually way too good for the commentary that follows). but the pattern holds -- obama is attacked, then defended, then the defenders are mocked as glassy-eyed cultists.
really, it's stupid.
Um, all one needs to do is turn on the TV or read an article about him.
Or rather that when a particular person seems to have opportunities handed to him by fawning admirers without the requisite work effort or level of achievement that usually precedes them, there’s a pretty good chance that he’s not getting them on merit.
And far as the issue before us, I don’t really think it’s that important whether Obama was a Senior Lecturer who was called “professor” merely as a courtesy or whether he was a serious academic on the tenure track. That someone felt compelled to inflate his rather meager achievements by suggesting he was offered tenure just seems to be another example in a long line of puffing up a rather meager set of accomplishments.
As far as the classes themselves, I think a number of things can be divined from them. The obvious one being that Obama is obsessed with race as evidenced by his choice of courses and the manner in which he teaches them. Another is that he doesn’t seem to either a serious or demanding instructor. Eight hours seems rather overly-generous to complete an open-book examination. Twelve pages is fine for a one-credit course but not fulfill a seminar/writing requirement at a law school. And don’t get me started about how having students lead the class in discussion is usually the staple of instructors who were too lazy to prepare a lesson plan. Finally, contrary to the claims of the article, the framing of some of the questions on his final exams suggest strongly that his own personal political views were very much injected into the classroom at least where it counted most.
that's your story, and you're obviously sticking with it. but i hear way, way more about this "messiah" talk than i actually hear the messiah talk. you and many others have done a heck of a job painting a picture of a man obsessed with himself. i haven't seen much actual evidence, but that's probably not relevant to the conversation.
I think,
will do.
And yes, I'm sure you know the Constitution much better than Obama does. So don't let the opinions of actual Constitutional scholars convince you otherwise.
But more relevant that any of that,
1. We've got plenty of 12- and 24-hour exams at Chicago as well. What eight hours allows for, more than anything else, is travel time back to one's apartment to write in peace.
2. A 12-page paper would help fulfill the course requirement, but not the Law School's separate "two substantial writing projects" requirement. That's why 12 pages was the minimum, and there was no max.
And for the folks waving around Obama's secret HLS grades, note that he got into Harvard ahead of a lot of better qualified Asians and caucasians. Can we stipulate to that? Oh, we can't??
That's because his LSAT, SAT & high school grades are a secret.
That's the problem: pig-in-a-poke. No vetting permitted. He's black, dontcha know. Wouldn't be fair.
Not to mention rank hypocrisy. George Bush was a C-student who had the world handed to him on a silver platter. Apparently, that mattered not one whit to all the folks here who voted for him.
Obama graduates from HLS magna cum laude, having been President of the HLR, and people are demanding that he release his high school transcripts.
What I find silliest is the narrow-minded focus on grades, to the exclusion of all else. If any of you had read Obama's books (and I realize that requires far more open-mindedness than you will ever entertain), you'd be forced to admit that the man is an extremely talented writer, among other things. (Lindgren and other posters here say so as well.)
That kind of skill with words cannot be imbued through mere affirmative action. It takes a great deal of intelligence and, believe it or not, hard work. Try it some time.
The ridiculous focus you all have on the superficialities of Obama's academic record speaks volumes about your worldview and aptly explains why you can't fathom his success to save your life.
Really?
Let's look at that:
Media cheer-leading (literally)
Another,
With less than six months to go before he would be sworn in as the nation’s 44th president, Sen. Barack Obama has directed his aides to begin planning for the transition
Obama's wife on Obama:
More,
Not to mention the Presidential seal he had going...
Whatever happened to the sane conservatives? Y'know, the ones that had substantive disagreements over policy in good faith (I dislike Obama's healthcare initiatives because x and y)? Istead it's all conspiracy theories and "chip on shoulder" politics when its remotely civil.
Hilarious!
I love the fact that you followed this post just in time!
Don't worry, you have no sense of irony.
And yes, I'm sure you know the Constitution much better than Obama does
I know I do. Note you aren't bothering to defend his incoherence. Shocking, I know.
So don't let the opinions of actual Constitutional scholars convince you otherwise.
Aw, isn't that cute?! 4 leftists in the tank for Obama and I'm supposed to be impressed.
Yawn.
(emphasis added)
You seem to be confusing me with someone impressed by academic credentials.
I just can't get over that! It's like an SNL sketch or something.
Anyway, Obama's not stuck on himself or anything,
No gravitas? No problem!
The original point by Professor Lindgren about the media not vetting favorable facts concerning Obama strikes me as significant. One problem with Obama and his lack of prior experience is a very real question about the degree to which he has been vetted for national office. For more seasoned candidates like Hillary and McCain most of the bad facts have already been discussed and factored in by voters. For Obama, there does seem to be more room for surprises a la Jeremiah Wright, particularly if the media is disinterested in vetting stories that conveniently fit their pro-Obama narrative.
Lord~ Protect me and my family.
Allah, please help me get elected King of the Infidels. I am willing to sacrifice my children in our holy quest to seize power over the land of sinners. Only then will they understand that the words of Muhammed ibn Abdullah, (Peace and Prayers be upon him) apply to all of your children, and to deny your words is to embrace death.
Forgive me my sins, and help me guard against pride and despair.
In my holy jihad against the people of the United States of Infidelity, I will be not proud, and I know that my sins will be forgiven by you, for they are sins in the name of Allah. The Infidels will lose their war in the Holy Land, and the Israelites will feel the flames of death upon them. Jerusalem will be returned to the Palestinian brothers, and peace will reign over the region for 1000 years.
Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just.
Allah, please make sure that this prayer gets published in Maariv. Looking for a holy bump in the polls. I have sent copies of the prayer to the AP, UPI, BBC, Reuters, New York Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Sun-Times, Chicago Tribune, The Enquirer, The Sun, The Star, and the writers of The View. Please Allah, make it so that Barbara Walters understands the reason behind this prayer is to help the ratings lost since Star Jones "quit."
And make me an instrument of your will.
Again, Allah, please get me elected as King of the Infidels. The Barbarians have taken to my speeches, and believe my words. They will follow me, they will drink the holy Kool-Aid, or they will die.
Allahu Akbar!!
A quick note about the idea that Obama's grades must have fell in the top 10% because he graduated magna, and currently only the top 10% graduate magna.
I've heard this a lot, but the logic doesn't hold, assuming as I think is the case that when Obama graduated in 1991, it was under the old system under which everyone above a fixed grade point (around 5.8, slightly less than an A- average of 6.0) graduated magna. Because of grade inflation, over time something like 12%, 13%, maybe even a higher percent of the class graduated magna. That trend was reducing the value of the magna honor, so at some point -- I believe after Obama graduated -- the present system allowing only 10% to get magna was instituted.
If he was under the old system, all we can safely say is that he was in the top 15% by the time he graduated. And regardless of what system, you'd have to evaluate his 2L and 3L transcript to decide how impressive his record was. He might have focused on taking "gut" courses (particularly small seminars) from professors who are known to hand out straight As like candy. In sum, unless Obama's transcript becomes available and disproves speculation, it's entirely possible that the following are the facts:
1. Obama got only a B+ average during the first year, right about in the middle of the class, taking the standardized courses.
2. Obama only got on Law Review due to affirmative action (8 of the 48 spots are reserved for minorities).
3. Afterwards, through judicious selection of easy courses, Obama got a mix of A/A- grades, eventually working his average close enough up to around 5.8 to graduate magna.
Again, this is only speculation. So far all we know is that Obama lacked the ability and work ethic to actually publish something in the Law Review (one of the few editors, apparently never to publish anything) and that in the only tough course we know he took, (Tribe's) he apparently didn't get an "A." The actual facts could be more consistent with the idea that Obama is crafty, and good at working the system, but not especially brilliant. I agree that information on Obama's performance on standardized tests, plus information on his performance during his 1L year (when he had no ability to pick easy courses) would settle one way or the other the debate concerning his native intelligence, and about whether he needed the affirmative action boost to accomplish what he did.
I will leave to others the debate over whether any of this has any relevance to voters, e.g.: (1) in evaluating claims Obama seems to have made in the past that he didn't seek any benefit from, or obtain any benefit from, affirmative action programs (going to his credibility); (2) in evaluating whether Obama's allowed himself to be falsely heralded as some sort of genius, while refusing to disclose records which would allow critical examination of the claims being made on his behalf (going to his transparency and ethics). Possibility such matters would be of interest only to law geeks (especially Harvard Law geeks), and not the median voter.
but i hear way, way more about this "messiah" talk than i actually hear the messiah talk.
Do you?
So why does Obama get a special free pass?? When you have a credible answer to that question, get back to us.
Re: Ace's post:Hillary's personal handmaiden, Gen. Weasley Clark, started that 'fighter' pilot meme [or at least pushed it relentlessly]. But the Perfumed Prince was in the Army, so maybe he doesn't understand that an A-6 Intruder gets down and dirty, low and slow to drop its ordinance, and that's how McCain was shot down. Like a lot of other A-6 pilots. Flying A-6's was a lot more dangerous than flying fighters.
But apparently from some of the comments here, flying an A-6 over Hanoi wasn't quite as dangerous as our brave HE-RO flying through that tough faculty opposition toward a tenured job. Just like his soul-mate Ward Churchill, of similar E-Z tenure fame.
OK, I've beat up on the Messiah enough for one day. Too easy, anyway.
So all this talk about his "talent" is obscene.
Talent?
Try 36 hits firing two 20-round magazines from 300 meters with an M16A1. Of course as a chickenhawk he's never attempted that either.
Nice.
And too true.
New meme -- Obama is not intellectual enough for average Americans to vote for.
smokey, i'm not riled, and you didn't answer my direct question. you've been demanding that obama release his secret HLS grades. when i pointed out (by far the first to do so) that his HLS grades weren't all that secret, you asked for his secret high school grades.
if we were to find some great high school grades, i trust you would demand that he release his evaluations from his time in the madrassa, right?
not new to the internet, smokey. just calmly requesting that you tone it down a little. obviously, you're free to be a hysteric. it's a little unbecoming, but go nuts.
And yet, you voted for him anyway. Which means grades are a highly insignificant factor in your analysis. As is the ability to achieve success on the merits, as opposed to having it handed to you.
So in other words, this entire issue is nothing more than another club for you to wield.
Oh yeah, that's a relevant skill for being president...
Question: why do you and everyone else infatuated with Obama give him a special free pass on his presumed scholastic ability? I was making a point lumping in his HLS secret grades with his secret grades from high school -- that grades don't matter when AA is in play.
By the time BHO got into Harvard via AA, everything that followed was a Done Deal. But you are giving him an uncritical, free pass on how he got to Harvard. Why?
I am stating that BHO got into Harvard because of Affirmative Action. Period. Because if Obama had the high school grades, and the SAT and LSAT scores to get into Harvard on merit, he would certainly have released those grades and scores to his worshipers long ago.
Look, you don't buy a car from a used car dealer without having a mechanic check it out first. Dealer: "No need to check 'er out, this here's one a the finest Yugos ever made. And what a deal! This lot loses a little on every sale. But we make it up in volume!"
Only an Obamaniac would fall for that line.
Good.
Really? Then why hasn't he done it? He's released only a very small portion of his service record. This tends to create the impression that the rest isn't flattering. What else could possibly explain why it's still hidden?
FYI, Bush managed to hide his DUI conviction for many years. With some help by Gonzales, at one point.
What's your basis for putting Obama and Clarence Thomas in different categories, on this point? Why are you willing to say that about Thomas but not Obama? I can think of a number of reasons why the reverse is more rational.
That's probably a good summary of the whole story. But at the very least, it seems clear that Fischel really wanted Obama, and probably would have handed over immediate tenure, if it was up to him alone. All this reflects very well on Obama. The only potential 'dirt' in the story is the appearance that Fischel stretched hard to promise something that may have been hard or impossible to deliver. And then maybe was not careful enough in describing the scenario to Kantor.
When the 'liberal' media repeatedly calls McCain a fighter pilot, even though that's not what he was, it doesn't just prove that they are ignorant. It proves that they are not working very hard to examine him closely and harshly. But they would, if they were truly 'liberal.'
You're acting like you think those statements are news to me. But they're not, and you should know that. When I mentioned this topic in this thread (here), I pointed to another thread (here). And in my very first comment in that thread (on this subject), here, I started out, in my very first paragraph, by mentioning what Clark and Rockefeller did.
So you're doing a really nice job of proving that you are criticizing what I wrote in the other thread even though you haven't bothered to read what I wrote there. You didn't even get as far as the first paragraph of my first comment (on this subject). Nice.
Here's why Clark said it: because he was responding to a journalist who used that exact term. That's not Clark's fault. You've probably never seen Clark's statement in context.
Here's why Rockefeller said it: because he's an idiot. Any other questions?
You should show your proof for the "lied about" part.
The funny thing is, especially considering that Obama has staked his presidential run largely on the Iraq war, I looked through a bunch of old boxes and managed to find the exam, and it turns out that the 2nd of the 2 questions dealt with the first Iraq war -- and specifically addressed separation-of-powers issues related to the run up to that war. So if Obama didn't do a particularly distinguished job on that exam (maybe he was distracted by the question's use of his middle name?), it makes me think twice. The question's very short (Tribe's exams are much more elegant than Obama's, which drone on and on), so it's no huge trouble for me to type it in. Here it is (I'd love to see Obama's answer -- all kidding aside, especially because Obama's never published anything on legal topics, it would be informative to see what Obama wrote on these separation-of-powers issues which are more relevant now than ever):
Constitutional Law A2
Professor Tribe
December 14, 1990
II.
You are a staff aide to an influential U.S. Senator. It is January 3, 1991, the first day in the opening session of the 102d Congress. Despite an ultimatum approved in November 1990 by the United Nations Security Council requiring Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait by January 15, 1991, and despite December 1990 talks between Iraq President Saddam Hussein and U.S. Secretary of State James Baker in Baghadad [sic], Hussein has hardened his resistance to demands that Iraq pull out of Kuwait and restore it to its pre-invasion status. A joint resolution soon to be voted upon in both the House and Senate, which would appropriate several billion dollars for an 18-month period, may have enough support to survive a Presidential veto. The resolution provides as follows:
Sect. 1. This sum is to be the exclusive source of funds for the United States to expend on a land, naval, and/or air offensive against Iraqi forces occupying Kuwait or against targets in Iraq itself, for any purpose other than repelling imminent attack on Americans stationed abroad;
Sect. 2. Such an offensive may be launched only if and when the President, after formal consultation with the Speaker of the House and the Majority and Minority Leaders of the House and Senate, formally finds that such an attack is essential to prevent the destabilization of the balance of deployable nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East or otherwise to protect the vital national security interests of the United States.
Sect. 3. None of the funds appropriated hereunder may be expended to advocate, or encourage popular support for, and offensive war;
Sect. 4. None of the appropriated funds may be used to attack civilian population centers;
Sect. 5. None of the appropriated funds may be used for an invading force that includes women as combat troops;
Sect. 6. All military personnel affiliated with recognized religious denominations that have condemned an offensive war against Iraq as unjust shall be excused from participation in the attack if they state under oath that they share that belief.
Your boss has asked you to comment, in 1,000 words or less, on the constitutionality of this legislative measure. Please do.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't exams graded blindly at HLS?
If so, how do you attribute his top-10% grades at HLS to AA?
It is striking how often that qualification has been used in this thread.
I have no idea whether you cheated your way through law school, but let's assume you did. Frankly, I'm surprised that someone of your supposed-caliber behaved so poorly. Clearly, we misjudged your character.
Your attempt to prove that Obama is "obsessed with himself" consists mostly of quoting other people just like you, who claim Obama is obsessed with himself while offering little or no evidence. Interesting how that works.
This is a lot like what you did in another thread where you discussed Obama's bill (as I summarized here). Although you falsely claimed to have quoted from the bill, you never once quoted text from the bill (aside from the bill's title). You just cited people talking about the bill, as if you didn't understand that this is no substitute for quoting from the bill.
Likewise, the fact that some journalist shares your beliefs about Obama is not proof that your beliefs are correct.
This is pretty basic stuff. You'll probably hear more about it when you get to middle school.
One problem with McCain and his lack of prior executive experience (aside from 13 months 30 years ago) is a very real question about the degree to which he has been vetted for national office.
Except for any "bad facts" that are concealed in the service records that McCain has decided to withhold.
Only because they were leaked. He did not release them. Why should Obama do what Bush did not do?
By the way, have you seen McCain's college transcript?
As far as I know, he said it exactly once, and I already explained why. Please show your proof that he "pushed it relentlessly." And it's screamingly absurd for you to claim that Clark "started" it. It's been part of the McCain narrative (as reported in the press) for years. And the one who has "pushed it relentlessly" is McCain. Although he avoids saying it himself, his web site is packed with examples of other people saying it for him (as I demonstrated in the other thread).
This comment (or at least many close variations) was addressed in the other thread. Maybe you should take a look, instead of turning this thread into that thread.
Speaking of not reading threads. Instead of inventing an asinine straw man, maybe you should read this thread and remind yourself of why the issue was mentioned.
You'll get far recycling empty smears that Clinton used. It worked for her, right?
Wrong. Grading at HLS is blind.
And McCain did?
Also, Ace, someone once suggested that John Glenn had never held a real job using much the same words you employ against BO. This parallel is completely irrelevant to the current discussion, but it struck me as too apt not to mention: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/glenn.asp
Can you tell that to jukebox, who keeps touting Obama's grades, compared with those of McCain, as the Great Indicator of Smartitude? (Allegedly, those of McCain, since rank-in-class at Annapolis is not based on grades alone.)
Obama was a top decile student at Harvard Law. I don't know if he was 99th %ile or 91st %ile. And I don't care. For those--like me--who don't plan on voting for him to make an issue of his LSAT, grades, or shoe size is just frivilous.
I like McCain. That doesn't mean I have to think Obama is dumb. For that matter, I know people who I'm rather certain are brighter than Obama. Many of them are theoretical physicists, mathematicians, and philosophers. I'd rather have Ted Stevens in the White House.
Do you have a link? I don't think I've seen it.
A DUMB Rockefeller?
What is this world coming to?
So you don't just think -- you know you've got a better handle on the Constitution than Obama, especially in light of his pathetic ignorance of the 2d Amendment, right? And the compliments on his Constitutional acumen from four scholars means nothing to you, since they're so obviously just "leftists in the tank for Obama."
Ace, that's so embarrassingly silly, I almost feel bad pointing out the following:
John Chapman is a Constitutional originalist. He's a scholar at the right wing Claremont Foundation. He's Dean of the Right Wing Christian Chapman School of Law. He clerked for Clarence Thomas. He has a regular weekly spot on Hugh Hewitt's show, debating from the right wing position against people like Erwin Chemerinsky. Enough?
Don't relax. It gets worse.
Another one of those four leftists is regular VC blogger Randy Barnett. You know, the 2d Amendment scholar who was at counsel's table during the oral arguments in Heller? You know, the one who was cited in Scalia's majority opinion in Heller?
But they're leftists because you say so. And you know Obama's command of the Constitution better than they do. Ace, I think you're long overdue for a break. Come back as soon words like "leftist" have meaning for you again. (Did they ever?)
You are not in a position to claim that Obama did not publish unsigned material in HLR. HLR includes lots of unsigned material. Did you really not know that?
I will assume you mean to say that Obama did not publish a signed article in HLR. Is that what you're trying to say? However, as Orin Kerr has pointed out, "HLR does not have signed student works, for Presidents or others." Did you really not know that?
Since "HLR does not have signed student works, for Presidents or others," you should explain why you implied that most HLR editors publish signed material in HLR.
I'm pretty sure the answer to every one of those questions is 'no'.
If only we had a word for Smokey's apparent belief that black people must be presumed unqualified and the standard for showing otherwise is "beyond a conceivable doubt." Perhaps something that starts with 'r' and ends in 'ism'?
There are lots of ways to know that Obama is smart. The fact that he was magna at HLS is just one of them. Anyway, "touting Obama's grades" is one of the proper ways of responding to the crew that insists Obama had nothing going for him except AA. AA didn't get him his grades, because HLS uses blind grading.
And yes, it is relevant to notice that McCain graduated at the bottom of his class. Your observation that this may have been a result of bad behavior is not terribly comforting. And we're still waiting to hear reasons to believe that McCain's many incoherent statements are not an accurate reflection of the way his brain works. At least at his current age, if not always.
No one else (in the general public) has seen it either. That was my point. Sorry I wasn't more clear about this.
A society where advancement is based on inheritance and privilege, rather than merit. One sign of this is lots of people who are rich, powerful, and not too swift. Remind you of anyone in Washington besides Rockefeller?
Inheritance taxes tend to mitigate this problem, so it's no surprise that the rich-powerful-dumb group is trying to eliminate them.
Nicely done. But you can't outwit smokey, because he knows that those guys were just temporarily infiltrated by the George Soros mind-control machine. Surely you know Soros has one, right? He used it to get Maliki to endorse Obama. He used it to get McCain to make a fool of himself by saying that the surge started before the surge started. Etc. I'm sure you can think of lots of other examples of this unseen hand influencing events and helping the terrorists. A lot of people don't know this. Spread the word.
jukeboxgrad, re: releasing grades:IOW, they're both exactly the same? Obama = Bush. [Make that Bush Lite].
And re flying A-6's:What other thread? I don't live to comment like some folks do. And how was your [long] vacation? More to the point, did you serve? Where and when? What unit? Inquiring minds want to know.
As for trad and anon's desperately flailing post: heh. Read my post of 7.31.2008 7:09pm. Don't be a dope. It's embarrassing for you.
Yes, how naive of me to think that a black man could do well at Harvard on the basis of hard work and intelligence...