For Those Following the DC-Area Housing Market:

A very interesting debate in the comments section of the Northern Virginia Housing Bubble Fallout Blog over whether Arlington prices, which have held up reasonably well post-bubble, are likely to fall due to the "substitution effect". With housing prices having plummeted in the outer suburbs, will home buyers, for example, decide to buy a 200K home in Prince William County instead of a 700K home in close-in Arlington?

My best guess, despite being an Arlington homeowner, is that Arlington is due for a fall. Arlington has many advantages, and the disproportionate rise in Arlington prices has some legitimate reasons, including how much nicer and safer DC has become, reasonably wise development policies in Arlington, and the general trend toward Yuppies wanting a more urban experience. But Arlington also has uneven schools, older housing stock, small lots, very high prices, and nasty traffic problems for those who need to commute west (like my brother-in-law, who spent an hour each way driving from Courthouse to Fairfax City each day, a fifteen to twenty-minute drive with no traffic), where the high-tech companies are located. At some point, marginal buyers will prefer neighborhoods in the outer burbs where prices are at 2002 levels (down 50% or so from the peak) to neighborhoods in Arlington where prices are still at 2004 levels (down 10-15% from the peak).

UPDATE: A major reason prices have fallen so hard in the outer 'burbs, but not Arlington, is the much great incidence of foreclosures in the former. Foreclosures, and for that matter short sales, have dragged down the prices of "normal" sales, creating what may turn out to be short-lived bargains. If I were buying for investment now, it strikes me that an 80K townhouse in Manassas or Dumfries that could be rented for $1,200 a month is a much better deal than an $800K house in Arlington that rents for $3,200.

Brooks Lyman (mail):
how much nicer and safer DC has become

Hey, they're still trying to weasel their way around the decision in Heller; I don't know where the "safer" comes from; at best it's relative, while the overall level of danger is still high relative to most other cities, and I'd rather live somewhere I'm allowed to practically defend myself against thuggery.
8.16.2008 12:36am
Tony Tutins (mail):
If people believe that the price of fuel will only go up, they will continue to prize close-in suburbs, especially if they're on the Metro. (A psychological effect more than a rational decision.) However, people trying to raise a family on one income will buy a house wherever they can; dad will just grin and bear his commute.
8.16.2008 1:00am
DavidBernstein (mail):
There is, of course, no reason to believe that the price of fuel will only go up. If anything, given the sudden divergence from the historical mean despite the absence of an external shock, the opposite.
8.16.2008 1:29am
Anonymous Hoosier:
Not much discussion of demographic differences between Arlington and counties further out, or of any divide between Metro-accessible Arlington and non-Metro Arlington (don't know if there is a difference, but I would be surprised if there wasn't). I have an anecdotal sense that more of the inferior housing stock in Arlington is in the hands of long-time residents, who in many cases have been made land-rich, cash-middle class by the housing bubble.
8.16.2008 1:33am
neurodoc:
How about on the other side of DC, that is Montgomery County, in particular Bethesda and Chevy Chase? Anyone have any recommendations for websites or other information sources regarding price trends in those upscale, in close parts?

Is the much cited Case-Schiller index useful to follow? Can you use it for information about more circumscribed parts of a metropolitan area (e.g., Montgomery County or Bethesda)rather than the whole enchilada (e.g., Washington MSA)?

I ask these questions as someone on the buying side, hesitant to make a move before the end of the year at the earliest, notwithstanding assurances that these particular neighborhoods have held and will hold value even as some other parts of the metropolitan area continue to decline. And there is a friend who just today was telling me that prices are indeed falling around here.
8.16.2008 2:23am
A. Zarkov (mail):
The option ARMs (a subset of the larger Alt-A universe) are now resetting in larger numbers with much more to come in 2009. This will cause foreclosures in places like Arlington. Until the price-to-rent and income-to-price ratios return to their historical values housing prices will continue to drop and invade more areas. Look at the ratio of the median price in Arlington to the median in income. If that ratio much greater than 3, you can expect falling prices.
8.16.2008 2:42am
Ted Frank (www):
There are interesting substitution effects all around. As the price of gas goes up, it becomes more expensive to commute -- but commutes get shorter because fewer people are driving. (My Prius has hit much less traffic driving around NoVa the last three months.)

The foreclosures are a double-edged sword; neighborhoods with a lot of foreclosures aren't as nice.

The real issue in Arlington is whether NoVa representatives will continue to be able to block DC's attempt to create a commuter tax, which will severely disadvantage the close-in suburbs relative to DC.

Neurodoc, if I were you, I would rent, but if you really want to buy, there's a great 1400-sq-ft condo in my building in Arlington (across the street from the George Mason Law Metro stop) on sale for only $600,000 when comparable places in the neighborhood are going for about $700,000.
8.16.2008 2:58am
Alan Jeffries (mail):
ahh, nothing like an amateurish laws professor opining on things he knows nothing about...c'est la vie...and so goes the Conspiracy
8.16.2008 3:45am
WCP:
A few major flaws with this post:

1) Does not differentiate 22207/Orange Line from the rest of Arlington (if Arlington is down 10% on average, and the rest of Arlington (i.e. 22204) is tanking, then 22205/Orange Line SFH market is X).

2) "Uneven schools" at least at the elementary level are not in the above areas.

3) Anyone who works in Fairfax and lives in Courthouse is making decisions for other than real estate value.

4) The people who work in DC who live in the basic Arlington starter house--i.e. folks ranging from perhaps second year associates to junior partners without kids or with perhaps 1 kid, and their hill and association equivalents--simply do not live in even Fairfax, let along Loudon or PWC. Seriously, for the many law firm readers on here, how many associates live anywhere outside the beltway? The percentage is incredibly small.
8.16.2008 6:15am
Tim Worstall (mail) (www):
"If I were buying for investment now, it strikes me that an 80K townhouse in Manassas or Dumfries that could be rented for $1,200 a month is a much better deal than an $800K house in Arlington that rents for $3,200."

18% yield on a house denominated in $, a rising currency? (I'm in Europe.)

Where do I sign up?
8.16.2008 6:32am
DavidBernstein (mail):
WCP, as should be obvious, this is a short post that links to a much, much more comprehensive debate that actually addresses some of your points, not a white paper addressing every possible angle.
8.16.2008 7:35am
DavidBernstein (mail):
I ask these questions as someone on the buying side, hesitant to make a move before the end of the year at the earliest, notwithstanding assurances that these particular neighborhoods have held and will hold value even as some other parts of the metropolitan area continue to decline.
A couple of years ago, I thought that the outer suburbs were way overpriced compared to the inner suburbs and DC (850 for houses in Gainesville? Geez!) But arguably the situation has reversed itself. There is some discussion of the Maryland situation in the discussion linked to.
Apparently, Maryland helped up better and longer than No. Va., but is now going down rapidly, with the exception of a few close-in neighborhoods, which I would put in the same general category as Arlington.

As for "assurances," the only assurance worth anything is someone willing to buy back your house for what you paid for it in 2-5 years. Anyone who gives you an "assurance" but doesn't back it up with cash isn't worth listening to. And FWIW, real estate agents have given me consistently awful advice; e.g., back in 1995, several told me that the worst thing to buy in No. Va. was a townhouse in Arlington. In 2005, it was "prices will go up 1% a month indefinitely."
8.16.2008 7:44am
SirBillsalot (mail):
A lot more people commute east than west. Lousy traffic keeps most people interested in living close to the city. Lousy DC schools keep many outside the city itself. Inner suburbs are a good compromise, and the outer suburbs not a good substitute even if they are cheaper.
8.16.2008 7:48am
Duncan Frissell (mail):
One of the joys of homeschooling/private schooling is that we can buy houses we like where we like w/o reference to the highly theoretical quality of the local government propaganda mill.

If the 3rd worst school district in one's state happens to have gorgeous Arts &Crafts homes for 1/3 the cost of identical homes 5 miles away in the expensive town with "good schools", you can make out like a bandit.
8.16.2008 7:59am
SirBillsalot (mail):
Clearly people with the time (homeschooling) or money (private schooling), or who don't have kids (young, single, gay, etc) have that freedom. You can see it in common housing choices in DC law firms. Younger associates = condo or apartment in the city; Midlevel associates to junior partners = house in the inner suburbs; more established partners = expensive house in the city, with live-in nanny; senior or retired partners = waterfront mansion in Annapolis, and a pied a terre downtown.

But buying a house in Front Royal because it is a bit cheaper isn't really practical for most of the above - unless perhaps, you work in Tysons.
8.16.2008 10:13am
Tony Tutins (mail):

If the 3rd worst schools + gorgeous Arts &Crafts homes = 1/3 the cost of identical [nearby] homes + "good schools", you = profit!


This is true for those who have the insight to see it. However, in for example Silicon Valley, people will pay insane premiums (well over a million dollars) to live in towns with what they perceive to be better schools. Cupertino, with public schools second only to Palo Alto, experienced quite a boom as ethnic Chinese moved in, partly for fear of what the Chinese takeover of Hong Kong would bring.
8.16.2008 10:18am
DavidBernstein (mail):
The relevant comparison would not be a place in Front Royal, but an estate in Great Falls.
8.16.2008 10:55am
DeezRightWingNutz:
If you view private schools and the best public schools as perfect substitutes, then the interest on the suburban price premium often outweighs the tuition costs.

However, among the items that I notice are correlated with bad public schools are:

crime
bad neighbors
poorly maintained homes/yards
poor government services (police, fire, sanitation)

If I were single or a DINK, I think I'd be much more eager to snap up that arts and crafts home that's near cool things and 30% less than the place in the burbs.
8.16.2008 11:10am
Richard Riley (mail):
Gainesville, VA at the intersection of I-66 and Rt 29 in PWC is growing insanely. I drive through it every week going between Charlottesville and DC. There are literally five separate enormous shopping centers either recently opened or nearly completed in a 3-mile stretch on Rt 29, with housing developments going up to hold their customers. It's funny to see the shiny five-bedroom houses of "new" Gainesville next to the car graveyards and auto body shops of "old" Gainesville.

Gainesville must be in the developers' sweet spot based on the various considerations in the comments above - far enough out that the inner-burb price premium is dissipated, but close enough in to be workable if your job is in DC or perhaps elsewhere in NOVA. And they're building a big new cloverleaf between Rt 29 and I-66 there. The huge downside is that you have to deal with I-66 traffic every day, but apparently enough people are willing to grit their teeth and bear it. I don't think I could do it.
8.16.2008 11:49am
SirBillsalot (mail):
"The relevant comparison would not be a place in Front Royal, but an estate in Great Falls."

Front Royal was obviously somewhat tongue in cheek, but I wouldn't consider Great Falls as an outer suburb. It's less than 20 miles from the city, closer than other places that are considered inner suburbs like Rockville, Gaithersburg, parts of Alexandria, Springfield, etc. You were talking originally about Prince William County, Manassas and Dumfries. All much further out, and closer to a normal definition of outer suburb.

Of course, my hip urban friends in DC regard anything over the Potomac as indistinguishable from driving to Richmond. They'll tolerate Arlington only about as far as Courthouse, and only then because it has an Apple Store.
8.16.2008 12:30pm
SirBillsalot (mail):
It's probably also worth pointing out also to anyone not familiar with the area that the area Prof. Bernstein is describing as an "inner suburb" - Arlington County - is actually closer to downtown DC than many places within the District of Columbia (e.g. Chevy Chase, DC). Parts of it are literally walking distance from Georgetown and but for a river and retrocession back to Virginia, it would be considered downtown.
8.16.2008 12:47pm
Curt Fischer:

DB on oil prices: If anything, given the sudden divergence from the historical mean despite the absence of an external shock, the opposite.


I'm having trouble parsing this. What's the "historical mean" oil price? Also, does this statement imply that only shocks cause price increases?
8.16.2008 1:01pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
neurodoc:

Rent, don't buy. Nominal housing prices will continue to decrease for at least two more years. Renting is still much cheaper than buying in most places. Why hold a declining asset, that you have to pay taxes on, and pay for repairs and maintenance. Your landlord bears, market risk, fire risk, flood risk etc. Not only that, if you should want to change locations, selling a house could be problematical.
8.16.2008 1:19pm
Tongue in Cheek:

Not only that, if you should want to change locations, selling a house could be problematical.


Problematical? No. Problematicalishesque? Maybe.
8.16.2008 1:36pm
Elliot123 (mail):
"ahh, nothing like an amateurish laws professor opining on things he knows nothing about...c'est la vie...and so goes the Conspiracy"

Well, didn't the professionals who deal in mortgages gorge on the subprimes? Folks like Bear Sterns, Merrill Lynch, City Bank, and Countyrwide? That sure shows how sharp they are. Maybe it's time for a bit of amateurish common sense.
8.16.2008 1:40pm
Paul B:
As someone who is in the real estate business but lives on the West Coast, I'm not in a postion to make observations about individual neighborhoods, but can say that David's logic is correct.

In all of the expensive metropolitan areas of the Northeast and coastal California, desirable central city and inner suburban neighborhoods have held up well, while outer suburbs and undesirable inner city neighborhoods have been hit hard by the combination of past subprime lending and speculator involvement, and current weakness in the economy. We are at a point where the price differential between the inner and outer suburbs has expanded so greatly that some buyers will shift their preferences. People who work in downtown DC may grit their teeth and buy homes in close in neighborhoods, but most of the jobs in any large metropolitan area, including DC are located outside the central city. Without making a prediction about the absolute direction of home prices in Arlington, I can't imagine how prices there will do as well as those in the outer suburbs. Maybe $200/bbl oil?

Neurodoc-Anyone who tells you he/she "knows" whether it's beter to buy a house today or six months from now is kidding themselves. I certainly don't see any rush to go house hunting, given the relative overperformance of prestigious suburbs these past couple of years (see above paragraph) and because I think the housing market nationally has more problems to overcome (but see above sentence).

Tony Tutins, I agree with you about the importance of public schools on housing prices but some of your facts about Cupertino are incorrect. Most of the Chinese there are Taiwanese, not Hong Kong, and are engineers who cae here for graduate school and then work. Also, given the trends in H1-B visa issuance in recent years, it is not surprising that Cupertino's population is rapidly shifting toward Indian immigrants.
8.16.2008 2:42pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Sirbills, people who might think about getting a house in Great Falls may go a bit further, like, say, Leesburg, to afford a mansion. That then puts pressure on prices in Great Falls, which is still a schlep to DC, but if those prices come down relative to DC mansions, plus you can save 60K on private schools, they become relatively attractive. But in any event, like I said, the DC housing market is hardly dominated by big firm lawyers.
8.16.2008 2:57pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
Paul B.:

"In all of the expensive metropolitan areas of the Northeast and coastal California, desirable central city and inner suburban neighborhoods have held up well,..."


That's true because the owners have generally been there longer, have better credit ratings and the neighborhoods are well established. On the other hand, places like Antioch CA are a disaster. But those desirable central city and inner suburban neighborhoods also enjoyed a tremendous run up in prices in the last 5 years unjustified by fundamentals. They too must come down for a variety of reasons. Many of the recent buyers in those desirable places will find themselves underwater next year. While they generally don't have sub prime mortgages, they do have option ARMs. They must because by 2005 and 2006 that's the only way even people with good credit could buy in and, let's face it, there are not that many rich people. Moreover, prices are sticky because sellers stubbornly cling to the prices they heard about during the peak years. And nearly everyone thinks he lives in a place that's somehow "different." I heard that a lot two years ago in Napa. "This is wine country, everyone wants to live here." "Prices won't go down." They did. So let's not be deceived. Those areas that have "held up well" will go down too.
8.16.2008 3:53pm
Jeffery W Wilson (www):

It's probably also worth pointing out also to anyone not familiar with the area that the area Prof. Bernstein is describing as an "inner suburb" - Arlington County - is actually closer to downtown DC than many places within the District of Columbia (e.g. Chevy Chase, DC). Parts of it are literally walking distance from Georgetown and but for a river and retrocession back to Virginia, it would be considered downtown.


Interesting observation. Perhaps we could convince Maryland to solve the "DC voting rights" problem through retrocession if we sweetened the pot by tossing Arlington County into the mix. DC would get the representation they desire, and Arlington County could stop feeling uneasy about its association with the rest of the Commonwealth.
8.16.2008 4:02pm
ArtEclectic (mail):
A. Zarkov has it right. Subprime hit the less desirable areas the hardest as those were the areas that first time buyers and speculators were concentrated. The coming waves of Alt-A meltdowns will take down the nicer areas because just about all the homes sold in those areas 2005-2007 were financed no-doc or option ARM. Those people will walk away in droves once prices drop and they are underwater by hundreds of thousands of dollars.
8.16.2008 6:02pm
DG:
David,

The only thing keeping prices up is the horrible traffic. I live in Gaithersburg, and while housing prices in the nice areas have fallen 15% to 20% from the peak (i.e. townhouses that once listed for $575k can be had for $480k), the sub-hour commute into DC/Bethesda/Chevy Chase is a winner. Same for Tysons and even Reston. If we had better public transportation or sane road spending, I would expect closer-in suburbs prices to fall.

I agree with others who do not consider courthouse to be a suburb. You walk across the bridge into DC! Its a 10 minute metro ride. Living in Courthouse, Ballston, etc is city living - nice city living, at that. don't let the DC line fool you.

The biggest price declines are Frederick, Manassas, Ashburn, Sterling - completely suburban living experiences, no social life, and horrible commutes.
8.16.2008 6:24pm
neurodoc:
Ted Frank and A. Zarkhov, thanks for the suggestion to rent, but not too probable, since we own a very large and desirable condo but want back into a house; and, finding an upscale house to rent for a few years where we want to live would be much more difficult than finding a grand condo to rent. So it may be that one can get more bang for their buck renting these days than owning, especially when owning entails risk of further depreciation, but for us not likely.

Professor Bernstein and Paul B, I realize there are no meaningful assurances to be had, hence my "notwithstanding assurances," and least of all by real estate agents who advise that prices always come back up.

What I was hoping for, and still seeking, are suggestions about how to stay informed about local (e.g., Bethesda and Chevy Chase, MD) price trends. While helpful to read about what is doing nationally and in various major metropolitan areas, I find that less useful information than what I would like to have. Where does one find more informative data than that which looks at prices over a fairly wide geographic swath (e.g., Montgomery County) and for homes varying from $200-300K range up to $2-3M bracket? Can one tease anything out of Case-Shiller that are practical for "micro" application?

And does it appear that increased interest costs and difficulty get "jumbo" mortgages are working against sellers?

Re Great Falls: some fabulous properties, but talk about commuting issues, the only way in and out is Old Georgetown Pike (Rte 193), a charming, winding road with only one lane each day that is jammed heading toward DC for hours on weekday mornings and hours at the end of the day going in the opposite direction.
8.16.2008 9:06pm
neurodoc:
Ted Frank and A. Zarkhov, thanks for the suggestion to rent, but not too probable, since we own a very large and desirable condo but want back into a house; and, finding an upscale house to rent for a few years where we want to live would be much more difficult than finding a grand condo to rent. So it may be that one can get more bang for their buck renting these days than owning, especially when owning entails risk of further depreciation, but for us not likely.

Professor Bernstein and Paul B, I realize there are no meaningful assurances to be had, hence my "notwithstanding assurances," and least of all by real estate agents who advise that prices always come back up.

What I was hoping for, and still seeking, are suggestions about how to stay informed about local (e.g., Bethesda and Chevy Chase, MD) price trends. While helpful to read about what is doing nationally and in various major metropolitan areas, I find that less useful information than what I would like to have. Where does one find more informative data than that which looks at prices over a fairly wide geographic swath (e.g., Montgomery County) and for homes varying from $200-300K range up to $2-3M bracket? Can one tease anything out of Case-Shiller that are practical for "micro" application?

And does it appear that increased interest costs and difficulty get "jumbo" mortgages are working against sellers?

Re Great Falls: some fabulous properties, but talk about commuting issues, the only way in and out is Old Georgetown Pike (Rte 193), a charming, winding road with only one lane each way that is jammed heading toward DC for hours on weekday mornings and hours at the end of the day going in the opposite direction.
8.16.2008 9:06pm
Jay:
Another area of frighteningly fast growth in NoVa is the Broad Run area south of Manassas on 28. The last VRE station is nearby. I use VRE to go into DC for the day (up from Charlottesville) twice a month or so, and in that time a mega-Target and giant, Harris Teeter anchored shopping center have appeared, complete with an artificial pond with an absurd looking fountain that shoots water 50 feet in the air. The "townhouse" developments continue to eat farther south from there towards the PW/Fauquier line. I can't see how anyone lives there other than bureaucrats/military who can count on an exact daily schedule, and most of my trainmates fit that profile.
8.16.2008 9:13pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
neurodoc:

When I was in your area about two years ago, I had no trouble renting a house. You might even get one on a long-term lease. Do you need to sell your condo in order to buy? As for historical price data, try zillow. Pick a zip code or a specific address and it will give historical price data for that house and the zip code for 10 years back.
8.16.2008 9:18pm
Uthaw:
and, finding an upscale house to rent for a few years where we want to live would be much more difficult than finding a grand condo to rent.

Try this. I think there are plenty of upscale homes for rent here.
8.16.2008 9:38pm
neurodoc:
A. Zarkov, it would have to be a multi-year lease, and I'm not sure that would do for my wife's purposes. (Personally, I'd rather stick with the condo notwithstanding its negatives.) And no, we don't need to sell present residence in order to buy. Indeed, plan is to rent it long-term with the expectation we will return to it in a decade or so, when it will probably suite us better than a house.

Zillow - yes, a friend was making comparisons between Zillow's estimate of values and what properties around us are being listed at. But how reliable an estimate of value does Zillow provide? Isn't Zillow more a guestimator that gives you a sense of what the property might be worth, or what it was worth at a former time, but is it very useful for comparison purposes? Are there other data sources that will give a sense of how house prices in particular neighborhoods are doing, sparing one time and energy in more laborious, and perhaps less reliable, approaches?

Uthaw, I have relied on our agent to bring properties to our attention, but they have all been ones for sale. Thanks for the link, I'll see what is out there for rent, and maybe I will find out I am wrong about the rental market for better houses. (Don't really want to have more than one move ahead of me in the next 5 or more years, but pressure is building to do something now, even though I am less sanguine that some very sophisticated real estate investors in my circle.)

Anyone believe that with a new administration, new people show up in Washington with a need for housing, and that works to push up prices here?

Finally, haven't there been some indices created of real estate (commercial or residential?) that allow bets to be placed on the direction prices will take? Anybody know anything about them? I would be interesting to see what was doing with them and how good they proved over time at predicting prices.
8.16.2008 11:14pm
David Krinsky (mail):

Seriously, for the many law firm readers on here, how many associates live anywhere outside the beltway?


There are a fair number of us big-firm associates outside the Beltway on the Maryland side. In part, this is because the Red Line goes well beyond the Beltway; from where I live in Rockville, a half-hour train ride gets me to Metro Center. Also, my biased and anecdotal impression is that MD traffic isn't quite as bad as VA's, either, because we're not bottlenecked on bridges. I-270 is bad at rush hour, but if you live in outside-the-Beltway Rockville, Kensington, Silver Spring, etc., you have decent surface routes--16th Street is pretty quick at morning rush.

However, at most DC law firms, Marylanders do seem to be in the minority.
8.16.2008 11:22pm
The Ace (mail):
rise in Arlington prices has some legitimate reasons, including how much nicer and safer DC has become

Are you referring to Washington, DC?


Officials Search for Solutions to D.C.'s Rising Homicide Rate
As the homicide rate in the District continues to soar, police say a young man was gunned down while riding a mini-bike in Southeast on Monday morning.

Witnesses told police that the murder was carried out by a gunman in a car. It was the 113th murder in the city this year, and that's seven more than there were at this same time last year.


For the particulars, let us go here.

District Crime Data at a Glance
Homicide: 9.3% increase over 2007
Sexual Assault 13% increase over 2007
Theft from Auto: 13% increase over 2007
Burglary: 6% increase over 2007



You get the idea. That comment is silly &absurd. Arlington prices are high precisely because the District is awful.
8.16.2008 11:42pm
Paul B:
Neurodoc,

If I were in your shoes (looking for a single family home for potentially long term), I'd not worry about Case-Shiller, derivatives for projecting prices,Zillow, and who's going to win the election.

Get yourself a good real estate agent, let her/him know that you're serious about buying, and don't be afraid to look at lots of homes in your target area. I guarantee that if you do that, you'll recognize the right home as soon as you see it.
8.16.2008 11:44pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Neuro, the link above in the post has some discussion of Maryland prices, and Maryland data.

The problem with the Schiller index is that it only compares actual sales, and this distorts the index down, because, e.g., if a house was sold in 2007 and resold in 2008, it is almost certainly a foreclosure, and in God-knows-what condition.
8.16.2008 11:46pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Ace, you didn't really think I was talking about the change since last year, as opposed to say, the Marion Barry years, did you? Compare Capitol Hill or better yet Logan Circle from then to now.
8.17.2008 2:08am
WCP (mail):
"Sirbills, people who might think about getting a house in Great Falls may go a bit further, like, say, Leesburg, to afford a mansion."

Statements like this really hurt your credibility, and make me wonder how many wealthy people, or law firm partners, you actually know. Time is, in general, EVERYTHING to these people...and I have heard many a partner grumble on enough occasions how far Great Falls or Potomac is, let alone LEESBURG...come on. Seriously, how many Hogan, Wilmer, Covington, A&P partners TOTAL live past Great Falls, who don't generally spend some time in the Tyson's office...

Obviously to someone who is stretching and whose self-worth is tied up into the size of their house, Leesburg is a possibility...but even to strivers, a $2 million house by Langly is worth more than a $2 million house in Leesburg.
8.17.2008 7:43am
A. Zarkov (mail):
Over about the last 30 years Americans seem to have become obsessed by real estate. Buying it, improving it and selling it. As a result a tremendous amount of capital has flowed into the real estate sector, draining investment from our productive capacity which is down to 12% of GDP. Is it any wonder the US is buried under a mountain of debt, primarily private? I know someone who just lost his job and what is currently eating up his time? A kitchen improvement project. I know a another guy who makes very good money, but his second house is such a burden he can't retire. I know a highly compensated lawyer who lives close to the edge because so much of his income goes goes into his house. Now the collapsing real estate bubble is taking down the economy-- all because people think they must own real estate even when they can't really afford it.
8.17.2008 9:48am
The Ace (mail):
Ace, you didn't really think I was talking about the change since last year, as opposed to say, the Marion Barry years, did you? Compare Capitol Hill or better yet Logan Circle from then to now.

Which Marion Barry years?

Otherwise, you do realize crime in DC is holding pretty steady, right? (the violent-crime rate in Washington is 1,633 per 100,000 residents — 3.3 times the national rate. D.C.’s murder rate is more than eight times higher than the rest of the country; its robbery rate is 4.6 times higher.)

I only pointed out increases since last year as a benchmark. In fact, In 2002, Washington, D.C. was the murder capital.

From 1988-1998 DC had the highest murder rate of any large city.

I think you should just admit what you said was wrong and move on. There is much more to DC than Logan Circle.
8.17.2008 10:56am
The Ace (mail):
Sirbills, people who might think about getting a house in Great Falls may go a bit further, like, say, Leesburg, to afford a mansion.

Leesburg is just as expensive as Fairfax.

You really don't know much about this topic.
8.17.2008 10:58am
DavidBernstein (mail):
It's actually pretty funny that one poster says I'm wrong because rich people won't live in Leesburg, and another that I'm wrong because Leesburg is just as expensive as Great Falls, implying that there are plenty of rich people in Leesburg.

But here's the point: Leesburg has gone down A LOT in the last three years. Great Falls less. And DC even less, if at all. Leesburg has therefore become relatively more attractive to the MARGINAL buyer (those who MUST live in DC, or who insist on being in the Langley school district, and so on, are not the marginal buyer in this context). And prices are set at the margin.

Doesn't mean law firm partners who work in DC will move there, but there are plenty of people who make decent money who could, for example, live in either Great Falls or Leesburg (you know there is more office space in Tysons than in all of DC, right? and that the high tech companies are mainly near Dulles, not in DC, right? there's a lot going on in the DC area besides the legal profession. I'm sure no one can be so provincial as to think that real estate prices in the entire DC metro area are set solely by partners at big DC law firms.) If the marginal buyer moves to Leesburg instead of Great Falls, that reduces demand in Great Falls, which then becomes relatively attractive to the marginal buyer considering whether to live in Great Falls or closer in.

This is basic economics, folks, but continue to live in virtual reality if you want. I should note that I'm NOT saying that close-in prices will go down as much as prices in the outer suburbs. There are real advantages to living close-in, and, as pointed out, there are some people who will ONLY live close-in, almost regardless of price discrepancies, which sets something of a floor on close-in prices. But the idea that prices can stay up close-in indefinitely while plummeting further out strikes me as unsound.

And "The Ace," the hipsters who live in Arlington are going to visit their friends in places like Capitol Hill and Logan Circle, which are much, much, nicer and safer than they used to be. Still not nice enough and safe enough for you? Not my cup of tea, either; I wouldn't live in DC in general, having had some bad experiences there in my youth. But the absolute rate of crime doesn't tell you ANYTHING about whether it's BETTER and therefore more desireable than it used to be.
8.17.2008 11:31am
SirBillsalot (mail):
"(I'm sure no one can be so provincial as to think that real estate prices in the entire DC metro area are set solely by partners at big DC law firms.)"

I think you are arguing a strawman here. "Law Firm Partners" is an example being used for the large class of busy and well compensated professionals able to afford pricey housing whose jobs tie them to the District. Our point is not that lawyers per se drive the market, rather that professionals of that type do drive the market and they don't consider Leesburg a good substitute for a house in the inner suburbs (such as Alexandria, Falls Church or Great Falls), or better yet, a house in the nicer urban areas, such as Foxhall Road, Cathedral Heights, Chevy Chase DC, or Arlington. The reason is simple: the commuting time is too stressful.

The question of supply and demand in real estate like any other limited good is whether locally there is enough demand to satisfy local supply. I'd argue that local demand is kept more-or-less satisfied because your far out suburbs aren't a good substitute. It may be that some marginal buyers, or buyers with only marginal ties to the city (reverse commuters, or those with jobs that can easily relocate) will substitute. But many simply cannot or will not because the savings in dollars isn't worth losing 1.5 hours a day in limited time to sleep or spend time with the family. As long as there are enough of the latter to actually make bids on the limited supply of desirable close-in housing, the price won't go down even if some marginal buyers aren't bidding because they are substituting for housing the less marginal buyers aren't interested in.
8.17.2008 12:14pm
The Ace (mail):
And "The Ace," the hipsters who live in Arlington are going to visit their friends in places like Capitol Hill and Logan Circle, which are much, much, nicer and safer than they used to be

Hilarious,


D.C. police are investigating a rash of robberies that have occurred on Capitol Hill.

According to a report in The Washington Post, police said 15 robberies were committed this past weekend and four were committed on Monday. Five were carried out at gunpoint.


Also, read this chat, here is just a taste:

Across the city, an average of 11 robberies take place each day, the analysis shows. But on Friday and Saturday nights, the city can register as many as five an hour.
....
I was robbed in Columbia Heights last year by three kids who couldn't have been older than 14. When the officer arrived to take my statement, he basically said, "Even if we do catch them, they'll be out on the street the next day."

...
I live on 19th and Kalorama and was a bartender for many years at a bar on 18th St. I have been the victim of a mugging walking the three-block distance from my former job and apartment. I know several friends who have been victims of robbery/muggings in that same situation as well.




But the absolute rate of crime doesn't tell you ANYTHING about whether it's BETTER and therefore more desireable than it used to be.

Please. Your perceptions are not reality. I'm posting actual statistics and news items and you are posting your perceptions. It is an absolute fact the crime rate has not fallen.
8.17.2008 12:16pm
The Ace (mail):
It's actually pretty funny that one poster says I'm wrong because rich people won't live in Leesburg

The person saying that is wrong. There is a development just outside of Leesburg off of Evergreen Mills road where there are 10-15K sq ft homes on 1 acre lots.

Those are all rich people living there.
8.17.2008 12:18pm
The Ace (mail):
Whoops!


There are more robberies per capita in the District than in New York, Los Angeles and other large cities. And robbers are traveling farther from home to strike, according to police officials. During the first six months of the year, about 40 percent of juveniles arrested in robberies and other crimes in neighborhoods just north of downtown did not live there, police said.

The city's robbery core is in the 3rd Police District, which includes the neighborhoods of Columbia Heights, Adams Morgan, Mount Pleasant, Dupont Circle and Logan Circle. It is the city's smallest, densest police district and accounts for almost 30 percent of robberies.


Now I don't know what you would like to compare that to, but "safer" is certainly not an apt adjective. That would be like me saying a bully is "nicer" because he used to hit you in the face each day, but now he only kicks you in the groin.
8.17.2008 12:22pm
The Ace (mail):
FYI, here is some data from 2005.

Fairfax county Estimated median house/condo value in 2005: $416,916

Here is Leesburg for 2007: Median home price $ 419,900

I couldn't find more recent for FFX. But they are comparable.

And an article from last year:

Northern Virginia bore the brunt of the real estate market slowdown locally last year, but its prices remained the highest in the region.
The median sale price for a single-family house or townhouse in Northern Virginia last year was $495,000, up less than 1 percent from 2005, according to a Washington Post analysis of government records. Condominium sales were tallied separately. The median sale price is the point at which half the properties were more expensive and half were less.


To add my own 2 cents, I moved from Clarendon to Ashburn earlier this year. All they are doing is building all around me. Time will tell if that is wise, but people are buying all of these new places. The SF homes in my area are selling between 500-750 K. Rather briskly.
8.17.2008 12:31pm
neurodoc:
It's easy enough inform oneself about the "macro," that is housing prices in the aggregate nationwide. This is the focus of considerable attention on business pages, and even front pages, of newspapers, because the composite data have so much import for so many investors and financial institutions. And it's only a little less easy to inform oneself about what is going on regionally with regard to the housing market, since regions (MSAs) are often broken out for the purpose of comparing and contrasting one to another. But I think it harder, at least it is for me, to be well informed about what is going immediately around one, the "micro," just by looking at some "trees" (individual houses currently for sale in one's area) among the many in the "forest" (overall price trend for houses in areas of interest).

So, I'm asking both a narrow question - what do those who know the area predict for prices in the more desirable in close Maryland neighborhoods (Bethesda and Chevy Chase); and a more general one - what is the most effective/ efficient way of figuring out how prices are trending for an area of interest in order to make a "buy now" versus "wait 4 to 6 more months and reassess" decision.

Paul B., we have a good real estate agent and have started looking. Don't you think, though, that real estate agents generally tend to optimism when projecting the direction of housing prices? Do you know many (any?) who would ever say prices are likely to go down further and not start to recover for another 18 months? I think agents may be helpful with respect to relative values, that is comparisons between houses presently on the market, but they must be the most biased of forecasters.

Professor Bernstein, if Case-Shiller distorts because foreclosure sales make things look bleaker than they really are for non-distressed sellers, then what is a more reliable indicator? Are there any breakouts according to price range, since declines in prices may be much greater or lower in different price strata? How good/bad is Zillow for tracking purposes? You have chosen VA over MD, but care to muse about this (MD) side of the river? Do you think, for example, that as McLean goes, so too go Bethesda and Chevy Chase, or are they different markets that move independently of one another though not all that far apart and similarly upscale?

If we were to bet on our predictions 6-12 months out of price trends in particular neighborhoods, what could we use to settle the bet when the time came? I will wager you $X that prices go up/down Y% over the next year in this neighborhood, but how exactly will we determine the winner of the bet a year from now? Look at what the Washington Post shows from time to time about average home sale prices by zip codes? We just figure that the homes sold in one period are roughly comparable to those sold in an earlier period?
8.17.2008 12:39pm
neurodoc:
Those are all rich people living there.
You are quite certain that none are simply living beyond their means?
8.17.2008 12:43pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
You're not posting relevant actual statistics. I'm saying DC is nicer, and safer, than during the Barry years. Your saying, it's still dangerous, worse than other cities, and recently the crime stats are getting worse. Everything you say can be true, and it still doesn't in any way rebut the point that one reason DC and close in neighborhoods are more valuable today is that DC is a better city today than it was in the early 90s.
8.17.2008 12:50pm
SirBillsalot (mail):
The Ace:

I agree with Prof. Bernstein that Capitol Hill, Logan Circle, etc., are much nicer and more desirable than they used to be. You can argue statistics, but I think he is right that compared to, say, the 80s, the perception of crime in those areas is much lower, and they have been nicely developed with new restaurants, bars, movie houses, etc. They are nice places to live and be now. This is a real effect, and it makes them attractive to urban hipsters.

Unfortunately, schools in DC have not similarly improved. So young hipsters are faced with a choice: spend a massive amount of their income on private school, or move to the suburbs. Many will forsake being downtown and pick the latter, whereupon they then have a further choice of urban adjuncts to the city (Arlington, Silver Spring, etc), close suburbs (Falls Church, Alexandria etc.) or living way in the boonies like Leesburg. Prof. Bernstein thinks they will leap all the way to Leesburg in order to afford a bigger house and a helicopter to fly to work every day. I don't think that is likely for many and as a consequence demand will remain fairly steady for desirable housing in the inner suburbs and nice urban areas that closely adjoin the city.
8.17.2008 12:59pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
neurodoc:

Before buying check out the foreclosures and notices of defaults (foreclosureradar.com) in the area. Even a single foreclosure within a mile of a house can bring down it's market value.

Here is a list of due diligence items for buying a house. In addition I do the following.

1. Do a "flyover" with Google Earth to check out the area.

2. Go to Craigs List to get a sense of the asking prices and rents in the area.

3. Go to the FEMA website to check for toxic waste sites etc.

4. Instead of (3) go to propertyshark.com and the same and more information. Note it covers the DC area.

So how come New Jersey has all the toxic waste dumps and DC has all the lawyers? They flipped a coin and New Jersey won.
8.17.2008 1:15pm
A. Zarkov (mail):
"They are nice places [Logan Hill etc] to live and be now."

The crime is reduced from the early 1990s, but I think it still remains at an unacceptably high level.

"... spend a massive amount of their income on private school..."

Isn't it funny how people who are opposed to segregated school systems, want them when it comes to their own children? DC spends as much or more on public schools per pupil than say Oakton VA. Yet people will move from DC to Oakton for the schools.
8.17.2008 1:27pm
The Ace (mail):
I'm saying DC is nicer, and safer, than during the Barry years

I think what you're actually saying is "parts of DC are nice and safer than the Barry years."

Because the crime data do not indicate DC as a whole is any safer than the Barry years. The crime rate has held pretty steady over the last 2 decades. You simply can not point to any crime statistic demonstrating that the current (2008 or 2007) crime rates in DC are any lower than in 1988 or 1978.

it still doesn't in any way rebut the point that one reason DC and close in neighborhoods are more valuable today is that DC is a better city today than it was in the early 90s.

I would argue you are wrong because not only could you produce no data suggesting what you're saying is true, but that the property values of the surrounding areas are going up because people are fleeing the District.

Another fact,

Growth in the Washington suburbs has coincided with growth nationally, as the U.S. population has risen from 200 million in 1967 to 300 million, a milestone the U.S. Census Bureau expects to reach this morning. Since 1970, the national capital region’s population has grown from just more than 3 million people to 5 million people in 2005.

But this growth has not been taking place in the District, where population has dropped from more than 750,000 in 1970 to 582,000 in 2005. By comparison, Fairfax County’s population has grown from around 455,000 in 1970 to more than 1 million in 2004.


That is the reason for the increase in prices. People are leaving an area that is unsafe for ones that are safer and have lower taxes.
8.17.2008 1:31pm
The Ace (mail):
Rather, I should say that the prices of the areas surrounding DC have gone up precisely because DC is not viewed as a suitable place to live. Because it is unsafe, has high taxes, and poor social services.
8.17.2008 1:50pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
But prices in DC shot up as much or more...

Neuro, we looked in Maryland last year, and came to the conclusion that the Cabin John vicinity was a much better value than Chevy Chase or Bethesda.
8.17.2008 2:57pm
loki13 (mail):
Ace,

Do you read what you link to? For your support of the crime rate holding steady for the past two decades, you provided a link to a site that shows that DC's murder rate went from a low of approx. 20/100k per yr. in 1985 to 80/100k in 1992 to 35.4/100k per yr. in 2005. As the graph clearly shows, there was a massive (almost quadrupling) in the murder rate between 1985-1992, and a steep decline from 1997 on with recent leveling. If one side of a mountain is sea level, and another side of the mountain is sea level, it does not follow that the ground is "pretty steady" in between.

Again, this is a bad habit you have.
8.17.2008 9:37pm
justanotherguy (mail):
How about the impact of the BRAC on the NoVa side? Moving 20,000+ government jobs (mainly civilian) jobs south from Arlington and Alexandria to Fort Belvoir and the follow-on associated contractor jobs (another 30,000+) wlll have some effect. If anything, it will at least an effect on traffic up 395 which will affect housing patterns and prices.
8.17.2008 11:54pm
Juan Carlos Rivas-Moreiera (mail):
VIVA LA GUADALAJARLINGTON!!!

AI! AI! AI! AI!

BRAAAAAAALAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!


(Thanks for the soccer fields, Gringos.)
8.18.2008 9:03am
zippypinhead:
Some of the prophecies of doom for the outer suburbs are overblown. NoVA boomed over the last 15 years because much of the job creation in the D.C. region occurred there, coupled with Virginia having more development-friendly zoning that made building both modest townhouse developments and McMansion ghettos easier and more profitable. But as often happens with any boom market, eventually supply outstripped the sort of demand that could reasonably afford the product being offered. Consequently, in the later more irrational parts of the boom, those selling and financing the boom encouraged increasingly speculative, exotic and risky financing methods for marginal buyers. And the buzzards have now come home to roost. Tulip bulbs and McMansions have some things in common after all.

Eventually real estate markets will return to equilibrium, but it's going to take a while longer and in many places the bottom will be below what makes rational economic sense (just like the top was). So if you time it right and can get (and finance) an investment townhouse in Prince William County for $80,000 and can afford to carry it for 5 years, you may look like the sharpest knife in the drawer in the long run.

Long-term trends in the D.C. region are going to depend in large part on ease of getting to one's job. Arlington will be attractive to yupscale professionals only as long as D.C.'s professional and government sectors continue to boom. If there is a significant Federal retrenchment in the next administration (which could happen given economic and budget realities), Arlington absolutely will stagnate.

Conversely, as telecommuting options continue to improve for knowledge workers, the length of one's surface commute to the office will become less critical. For example, the Patent and Trademark Office has been running a generally successful telecommuting experiment that has caused many participants to disperse to the Shenandoah Valley, southern Pennsylvania, and beyond. If teleworking continues to take off, eventually peak hours commuting pressure on the highway system may ease -- and based on how much easier D.C.-area commuting currently is during summer vacation season, the marginal decrease of vehicles on the roads doesn't have to be that great to make a huge difference in traffic flows.

Speaking personally, I'll take a nice house on 5 quiet wooded acres in Clifton or Fairfax Station for the same price as that upscale Roslyn or Ballston condo any day. Or at least as long as my broadband connection is working.
8.18.2008 10:32am
SirBillsalot (mail):

"If there is a significant Federal retrenchment in the next administration (which could happen given economic and budget realities), Arlington absolutely will stagnate."



Sadly, I think we can safely bet that the size of the federal government isn't going to shrink.

Ever.
8.18.2008 6:59pm
neurodoc:
came to the conclusion that the Cabin John vicinity was a much better value than Chevy Chase or Bethesda.
Not sure how to understand "value" in this context. More house for the money or more likely to see appreciation rather than depreciation? I have no doubt that Cabin John meets the former definition of "value," but have no opinion about the latter one. For us best is no further north than Wilson Lane or East-West Highway and close to Red Line route.

A. Zarkov, thanks for the suggestions as to due diligence. I am pretty confident that we are not looking at any places that sit on a toxic dump site, though people living in very fancy homes around American University have found unexploded ordinance from WWI in their back yards. (It seems there was some precursor to Aberdeen there almost 90 or so years ago.) Have never looked at Craig's List for anything, and would really be surprised to see anyone hawking properties going for 7 figures there, but will check it out. (Advertising property on Craig's List doesn't impart the same cachet as a Sotheby's or Christie's sign.)
8.18.2008 7:27pm
Big Bill (mail):
Prince George's County has seen a significant drop in crime since they decided to enforce the law and stop subsidizing illegal aliens.

The crime stats for Fairfax went up significantly in the same period.

Is there any move afoot to do a "Prince George's County" in Fairfax or Arlington?

Likely it could have the same salutary effect on crime and house prices.
8.18.2008 11:38pm
zippypinhead:
Prince George's County has seen a significant drop in crime since they decided to enforce the law and stop subsidizing illegal aliens.
Um... do you mean Prince WILLIAM County VA, by any chance? Then the statistics you cite might match up with reality. Prince William has been heaving the Latino community overboard quite effectively for the last year or so, with thousands moving back into Fairfax or Arlington. Prince George's County MD, on the other hand, has basically devolved into hell with the lid blown off.

Of course, this immigrant diaspora from Prince William is one of the reasons David B. can invest in a former $300,000 townhouse in Manassas or Dumfries for only $80,000.
8.19.2008 12:13am
Randy R. (mail):
I bought my house on Capitol Hill in 1993 for 193,000. All my friends laughed at me because people were fleeing the district and there was a house for sale on every block on the Hill. The moment Marion Barry decided against running again for Mayor, the prices started creeping up, and they have continued so ever since. Although my house was probably worth about $800-900 during the peak years, it's probably closer to $600 nowadays.

Inventory on the Hill is low, and prices are still quite high. Why? Mostly because people have discovered its' a great neighborhood. We have many empty nesters moving on to the hill because they don't care how bad the school since their children are all grown up, and they want to walk places, know their neighbors and have time to see theater and the museums.

Crime peaked on the Hill during the Barry years, and has been low ever since.

So sorry, Ace, but once again you are in the wrong! But I'm sure you know a lot more about my neighborhood than I do, so please blog away.....
8.19.2008 1:37am