The Volokh Conspiracy

Experiment with a No-Laptop Policy for Class:

Here's a message I sent out to my students a few weeks before the start of class about this. When the semester is done, I'll ask my students to fill out an anonymous survey, and I'll report both on that and on my personal conclusions. I don't know what the result will be (though I have my hopes and my guesses), but that's why it's an experiment.

Dear [Students]:

I'm very much looking forward to our class this Fall. As you know, law school classes — much more so than most large undergraduate classes — rely on class participation. I don't grade students' in-class comments, chiefly because I'm a big believer in fully anonymous grading. But I would like to see more and better class participation, because it helps both the participant and the other students learn, and because it makes the class more interesting for the students (and for me).

Because of this, this semester we'll be conducting an experiment: The rule will be

(1) no laptops in class — that's no laptops, not just no Internet access — but

(2) one student per day will take notes [on a laptop,] which will then be circulated to the entire class.

Several law professors at other schools, including some I know well and trust, have conducted such an experiment, and report that they have gotten great results. Class discussion, they say, is much better. Students are less distracted, both by things on their own laptops and on their neighbors'. Students don't feel pressured to take verbatim notes (since that's very hard to do in longhand on notepads), and instead focus on identifying the important points and tying them together. Students are therefore listening more actively, and are more ready to discuss things and answer questions.

Also, most of the other professors report, anonymous surveys at the end of the semester show that most students like this system more than the normal laptops-OK rule. (The few exceptions report that students are on balance indifferent to this new system.) So it sounds like a win-win, which is why I decided to try it here as well.

After the semester is over, I will ask you folks to anonymously report back on the results; you will then also be able to compare your in-class experience in this course with your in-class experience in the other courses, which to the best of my knowledge aren't conducting this experiment. While obviously the different subject matters might be a confounding factor, I think that on balance the survey will likely yield useful information. Armed with it, I'll know whether to keep on this track in future classes, or to switch back to the laptops-OK rule. And my colleagues might be able to take advantage of the results as well.

In any case, I wanted to give you some advanced warning, so that when class starts next Wednesday (August 20), you'll

(1) know what will happen,

(2) know that you need to bring a notepad and a pen (I found the four-color pens to be especially useful when I was a student), and

(3) know that you could leave your laptops in your lockers and save some back strain.

I'd also like volunteers to take notes for that class and the classes the following week; I'll soon have a more formal system set up for that. A special bonus for the volunteer notetaker: You won't get called on that day or the following class day. So please e-mail me if you'd like to volunteer. I in turn will e-mail all of you the syllabus in a couple of days.

Again, looking forward to seeing all of you next week,

Eugene

Related Posts (on one page):

  1. Class Discussion:
  2. Libertarianism and Actions Within Institutions:
  3. Experiment with a No-Laptop Policy for Class:
Justin (mail):
It would work even better if you simply gave them the notes, either pre-prepared ones at the end of class, or ones sent out a day or two after. Not sure that's plausible, but note-taking skill varies from person to person.....
8.20.2008 4:09pm
Virginian:
If it is a large enough class, it might be better to have two notetakers each day. Given the likelihood that at least some of the students are going to be poor notetakers, that reduces the likelihood that the students will not get good notes for any particular day.

Then again, maybe I am overthinking this.
8.20.2008 4:13pm
TomH (mail):
Yes, I would not thrust my notes upon another. The other would probably have been sorely disappointed.
8.20.2008 4:14pm
Arkady:
You know, I went to college and graduate school back in the dark ages, no computers, cell phones, whatever. I don't know how we made it through with just paying attention to what the professor was saying, taking notes in class, writing notes in the margins of our textbooks, and, shudder, typing our papers on portable typewriters. It was pure hell, I tell ya, pure hell.
8.20.2008 4:15pm
Dissenter:
These two statements --

As you know, law school classes — much more so than most large undergraduate classes — rely on class participation.

and

I don't grade students' in-class comments,

Are directly contradictory.
8.20.2008 4:16pm
EIDE_Interface (mail):
Arkady - you are anti-progress and a wrecker! Off to the re-education camp.
8.20.2008 4:17pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Dissenter... no, they're not, not in the slightest. Learning and grading are in fact 2 different things. Class participation in law school is in fact essential in learning how to actually be (and think like) a lawyer. How well you've learned is evaluated in the grading process. What Prof. Volokh is saying is that the only thing he grades is the exam; there are no grading points given for "class participation." Some schools and some faculty do grade class participation, in addition to the exams, grading you on both the quality and frequency of your participation. In Prof. Volokh's class, you can not talk at all and still get a perfect score, if you do perfectly on your exam... the reliance on class participation comment reflects that the odds of you doing well on the exam are significantly reduced if you fail to participate in class.
8.20.2008 4:22pm
A.W. (mail):
Eugene,

This is why it won't work. Some disabilities require laptops. So then do you make an exception, or just allow them all.

I say allow them all.

And frankly, for a libertarian, its funny how quickly "libertarian" professors turn into an authoritarian on this. If students want to check drudge, shop, or god forbid, visit your site, what is it your business? Really.
8.20.2008 4:23pm
Doh (mail):
I don't really get the idea of one person taking notes for everyone. I would never trust someone else to take notes for me, and I don't understand why you would want to encourage that.
8.20.2008 4:24pm
private:
Eugene, I'd have been lost without my computer and 'net access! I was one of the older students, and not a strong student. I was that solid-B, right-in-the-middle, and "nothing's shining" kind of student.

Usually, I sat right in the front -- the better to pay attention. Occasionally, if I arrived late, I would sit in the back. Yes, when sitting in the back, I saw some students playing card games on their computers, or sending email, or generally surfing the 'net.

HOWEVER, in my case, I used my computer for everything from quickly checking a case that a professor might mention, to looking up the meaning of a word. I am convinced that my computer and instant 'net access were the only things that allowed me to stay even with the rest of the class. I am seriously dyslexic, and I read slowly so more than once I had not completed all of the readings. However, with my computer and the 'net as a crutch, I was able to understand what was being discussed in class.
8.20.2008 4:25pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Eugene... interesting policy. I was wondering how you were going to deal with divvying up responsibility for note-taking. Giving "no call" passes to the notetakers is a good incentive.

I would recommend not making a stint as designated note-taker mandatory, however. I was not good at taking notes in school and would not want to impose my notes on anybody, nor bear the responsibility of being the sole note-taker for the class. The class would probably get very mad at me if my notes were the only ones available for a given day.
8.20.2008 4:26pm
jgshapiro (mail):
EV:

This policy only makes sense for optional classes, as opposed to the mandatory first year classes.

The problem with using it for the first year classes is (1) each student is at the mercy of whomever the notetaker is and whatever they think is relevant (not to mention their note-taking style), and (2) the student's grades for first year classes have an undue influence on their legal career, as their first year grades affect whether they will make law review, whether they get a job after the first year, etc. Plus they are in effect curved against other sections of the law school taking the same class but with different note-taking rules, unless you are the only one teaching this class and/or the same rule applies to everyone taking the class.

You are making your students into Guinea pigs, and if the experiment fails, the consequences will fall mainly on them.

On the other hand, after the first year, this policy would make sense, since students who don't like it can opt not to take your class, and grades matter less (especially in the third year), so the consequences of the experiment failing are minimized.
8.20.2008 4:28pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
A.W. ... Education is not simply another consumer good. The student (or his/her parents) is paying the faculty member to actually teach them something. If the faculty member's judgment is that class participation is essential to the educational process, it is the obligation of the faculty member to require such participation. If the student doesn't care for that, then the student can go find someplace else to get his/her education... and run the commitment risk of having to get an education of much lesser value.

And that's leaving aside the issue of the distractions such computer playing cause to other students who may be trying to focus.

Finally, I'd point out that ABA accreditation standards require that students attend a certain percentage of scheduled class hours. That standard may be technically met with the student's physical presence but mental absence, but the spirit is certainly violated.
8.20.2008 4:30pm
RJuliano (mail):
Professor Robert Summers of Cornell Law School is instituting a similar policy in his first year Contracts class this year.

Dissenter, Professor Volokh's goal of broad class participation and his grading policy are not contradictory, let alone directly contradictory. Because he wants something, doesn't necessarily mean that he must grade based on its presence. Still, I perceive the underlying tension that you're getting at, and I really think that legal academia needs to reconsider basing an entire grade on a single 3-4 hour performance.
8.20.2008 4:30pm
Dave N (mail):
Dissenter,

I don't find the two statements contradictory at all. The in-class discussion doesn't count BUT the class is much more useful if all students participate.

Though it has been some time since I was in law school, I do teach undergradute courses on a part-time basis. My experience is that students who are engrossed in their laptops are not engrossed in the class.

Arkady,

I understand and feel your pain. I remember taking copious, copious notes in class--and then at the end of the semester typing them out as part of my final exam prep. I remember having a highlighter, multi-color pens, and steno-notebooks to get by. The horror of not having a laptop, a cellphone, and immediate Westlaw access still causes nightmares.
8.20.2008 4:31pm
Dissenter:
PatHMW;

Spoken like someone who hasn't been in law school for a long time. (Or, possibly, is a professor). Grades are EXTREMELY important for all law students at a school not named "Harvard."

It's simple psychology -- if you want your students to act in a certain way, reward them for it. So if you want your students to talk up in class, make that part of their grade. By saying that the final written exam is 100% of the grade, you're telling your students that the exam is the only thing that really matters.
8.20.2008 4:32pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
jgshapiro... the thing is, the current default practice (everybody brings laptops) is ALSO an experiment. Lots of people managed to get excellent legal educations for quite a few decades before the invention of the computer, let alone the laptop. The students with the laptops are conducting a MASSIVE and risky experiment that they will do better trying to type nearly verbatim notes rather than focusing on the class discussions and trying to absorb the lesson rather than memorize it. In my own opinion, professors have been far too tolerant of this experiment and should not allow students to risk the ability to gain fundamental understanding of the law by focusing on the minutae of laptop note-taking (leaving aside the many morons who choose to just surf the web in class).
8.20.2008 4:34pm
runape (mail):
These policies are extraordinarily patronizing. If you want students to pay better attention, be more interesting. You have no right to demand that students listen to you; and, to the extent you believe you are providing a better educational experience to your students, you are being (as many will doubtless point out) remarkably paternalistic in your approach.

The externalities of laptop use are overblown by students with limited attention-spans who are incapable of ignoring a neighbor's Freecell game. (I also note that most of the professors who have implemented such policies attended law school before laptops became pervasive, and so the assertion that laptops are distracting is based on hearsay - and so particularly dubious.)
8.20.2008 4:34pm
tarheel:
My concern is that one good, or at least defensible, idea (getting rid of laptops) will be drowned out by the uproar over what I think is a terrible idea (having one person take notes for the whole class).

Learning to organize and synthesize information is part of the learning process, and banning people from taking their own notes is just counterproductive. It exalts class discussion at the expense of every other skill to be mastered.
8.20.2008 4:36pm
Dave N (mail):
Runape,

I am not a law professor--just a prosecutor who teaches college classes on an occassional basis to earn some extra money. My experience is that laptops are distracting for both myself and my students. I do not ban them--but I certainly understand why EV is.
8.20.2008 4:37pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Ahhh, Dissenter, I see. You were making a normative judgment of his practice of not grading class participation, rather than saying that his statements were actually logically contradictory.

It's true I was never much motivated by grades in law school (or undergraduate college, for that matter), because I preferred to focus on actually comprehending was going on, rather than figuring out how to regurgitate a desired answer on a test. It's also true that I think I'm a much better practical lawyer today than a great many people who made much higher grades than I did, because I actually made sure I understood the fundamentals.

But there remains nothing contradictory, even in the sense I now understood you to have used the word, about Prof. Volokh's grading practices. In the practice of law, one doesn't often get very immediate reinforcement. The judge doesn't give you treats for good trial prep along the way; your grade comes only at the end with the jury verdict. It's entirely appropriate for a law professor, then, to also teach delayed gratification, explaining what needs to be done to maximize the chances for a good grade on the exam, and then grading (judging) only the performance on that exam.
8.20.2008 4:40pm
Anony:
I have to echo some earlier comments and disagree with the "one notetaker" policy. I wouldn't want my notes thrust on my entire class, nor would I want to rely on notes from someone else. Technically one can avoid both (assuming participation as the notetaker is voluntary), but this policy seems to encourage such reliance.

I also don't agree with the no-laptops policy, but EV's the professor and I suppose it's his right. Just don't turn into an authoritarian in class, please.
8.20.2008 4:40pm
runape (mail):
"The student (or his/her parents) is paying the faculty member to actually teach them something."

This view is incorrect, but frustratingly pervasive. Students do not pay for the faculty "to actually teach them something." Students are paying for the right to attend school and receive the resulting credential. Whether the student chooses to learn anything along the way should be entirely the choice of the student. And there is nothing about one student's laptop use that prevents another student from learning something (unless the latter student suffers from an inability to focus.) And, to the extent that one's fellow students cannot focus, it is not clear why the student who prefers to use his laptop should be forced to subsidize the student who can't pay attention. If anything, the student who can't pay attention should be made to pay the student who wishes to use his laptop. (There's an experiment for you, Eugene - auction the right to learn in silence.)
8.20.2008 4:41pm
frankcross (mail):
runape, my sense was also that they were patronizing and paternalistic. But students started texting one another during class. When someone was called on, they'd be hit up with distracting text messages. Or maybe texted the answer.
8.20.2008 4:42pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
runape... when did it become the place of the student to decide what the best pedagogical methods are? Why is the student even bothering to go to class at all, if not for the belief that the professor knows something that he (the student) does not? The student is paying to be educated (from the Latin "to draw out," as from ignorance) by the professor. How is it "patronizing" for the professor, acting on that superior knowledge, to establish what the students must and must not do in the classroom?
8.20.2008 4:42pm
Dissenter:
Well, no; I still think they are logically contradictory. It's simply outright false to say that participation is more important in law school if it isn't graded, while many undergrad classes do indeed grade on participation (10% or so IIRC).

And I don't necessarily think that class participation is good or bad by itself. Some people need to talk and argue to learn, some people learn better by reading or listening. But that's a nebulous and unmeasurable concept. From the only perspective of the only metric you can measure - grades - the prof is misleading his students.

I do agree that Prof. Volokh's no laptop rule is probably a good one; I used a laptop throughout law school and don't think that it added much other than distracting me when I was bored.
8.20.2008 4:45pm
Redman:
I am one of those lawyers from the Dark Ages, pre Steven Jobs and Bill Gates. I can't imagine how anyone can pay attention in class while surfing the net, even if it may be to 'look up a case' the prof just referred to. If they want to use a word processor to take notes, that's fine, but I see nothing wrong with the prof saying 'no internet in my class.'

The prof isnt there to dispense grades, he's there to teach, and he should be in control of the environment in which he attempts to do that.

Don't like the rules? Take the course from someone else.
8.20.2008 4:45pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
You have a remarkably egocentric viewpoint, runape. It's all about you. Hey, I know... how DARE those professors actually give a bad grade to the students who are only showing up to receive the "resulting credential." If the student wants the credential without having to actually learn anything, that should be his choice. To the extent that other students actually want their credentials to mean something, then they should subsidize the slacker student, pay him to actually learn rather than just be given a degree in return for his $100,000 in tuition.
8.20.2008 4:46pm
John McE (mail):
One of my Computer Science professors in a seminar-level course at Penn used the same approach for his class, although for the sake of redundancy TWO students were selected to take notes.

It was a valuable experience. Taking and preparing notes for wide distribution is a valuable skill in and of itself, and requires much deeper understanding of the material than literally jotting down whatever the professor says.

And of course, if only one or two students are relegated to the task, it frees up everyone else to participate in the dialog.

As for the concern that not everyone takes notes equally well:

Another benefit to selecting two students is that the probability of truly bad notes goes way down (assuming that bad note-taking is sufficiently rare)

Having the notes reviewed by the professor will give a heads up if the material was not properly recorded.

And comparing this approach to having the professor prepare the notes: not every professor possesses great skills at written communication, so if the class has some decent writers, you'll actually come out ahead.

I've never ended up teaching, but I remember remarking to myself at the time that if I were to teach, I would use the same approach. I think it worked well.
8.20.2008 4:46pm
jugdish:
If your goal is to maximize participation, why not just allow people to record the class rather than have a designated note taker. That way they can focus their attention on classroom discussion, and take detailed notes from the recording at a later time. While attendance might be a concern, that can be separately addressed.
8.20.2008 4:47pm
runape (mail):
"How is it "patronizing" for the professor, acting on that superior knowledge, to establish what the students must and must not do in the classroom?"

It is patronizing both because any given student, and not the teacher, is the best judge of how that student learns best; and because neither the professor nor the school has a right to force the student to learn at all. If the student chooses not to learn, the school has an obvious remedy; and so be it.

Law school professors are strangely cagey about how they grade exams. Nearly all professors pay lip service to the idea that they prefer short, well-reasoned exams to long, rambling exams; but in practice, the students I know who did well were also the students who wrote the most.
8.20.2008 4:47pm
Jed S-A:
What about students with disabilties who need to take notes on a computer? I assume that you will be making exceptions for them?
8.20.2008 4:48pm
James Eaves-Johnson (mail) (www):
If you want to promote discussion, just tell students that everyone will participate and that those who volunteer will be able to participate on their own terms while those who do not will be called on. If people are unprepared when called upon, don't let them off the hook.

The professor who motivated me most in law school would randomly call on two or three people in each class and stick with each of them for 20 or more minutes. Being unprepared never excused students from answering - it just meant that they would be embarrassed for 20 minutes.

If you think a student is distracted by their computer (or anything else for that matter), call on them more often.

As a person who took horrible handwritten notes (I was exceedingly slow), relied on a laptop, and participated often, this policy would have upset me greatly.
8.20.2008 4:48pm
runape (mail):
"how DARE those professors actually give a bad grade to the students who are only showing up to receive the "resulting credential."

That is the opposite of what I'm saying. I think it's a great idea to fail students who try to receive credentials without learning.
8.20.2008 4:49pm
LM (mail):
Dissenter,

If all you care about is your grade, then you may be right, but what are you doing in law school? There are better ways to make money if you're not that interested in the law.
8.20.2008 4:49pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
The problem with using it for the first year classes is (1) each student is at the mercy of whomever the notetaker is and whatever they think is relevant (not to mention their note-taking style)
Uh, you do realize that E.V. isn't proposing a no-notetaking rule, right? Just a no-laptop rule. Everyone is free to take his or her own notes.
8.20.2008 4:49pm
Erick Rhoan (mail) (www):
My only concern if my school were to adopt a policy such as this is that I can't write as fast as I can type. There is a ton of info to pick up in 1L classes and even now in my 2L classes; if I didn't have my laptop in front of me I know I would miss some things. And I wouldn't trust one person to take notes for me - I've seen the notes of my fellow students and I've seen all different styles, but none that were my own. Plus the pressure of having the whole class breathing down your neck, worrying whether or not you were doing your job and the consequences of when you would screw up do not give me a favorable response to a no-laptop policy.
8.20.2008 4:49pm
krs:
I probably would have dropped the class, all else being equal.
8.20.2008 4:51pm
tarheel:

Uh, you do realize that E.V. isn't proposing a no-notetaking rule, right? Just a no-laptop rule. Everyone is free to take his or her own notes.

Sorry, misinterpreted his email. Makes a lot more sense to me now.
8.20.2008 4:54pm
Anony:

runape: "It is patronizing both because any given student, and not the teacher, is the best judge of how that student learns best; and because neither the professor nor the school has a right to force the student to learn at all."


Agreed. If the grade is determined 100% by the exam, then nothing else should matter. If EV is correct that students learn better without laptops, then students who voluntarily dispense with laptops will get better grades. Hell, if students don't want to attend class, why should they have to (ABA rules aside)? A 100% exam class should mean what it says.

Laptops aren't disruptive to the other students, so there's no reason to ban them outright.
8.20.2008 4:54pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
Erick Rhoan... what you're missing is that class participation is not just about getting some facts memorized, things that you might "miss" if you don't write them down. Part of it is about putting your mind to actual work, thinking through a problem, comprehending the question being asked, mentally formulating the best response, etc. It's the actual thought that you do, either while responding to a professor's question or while mentally preparing to be called upon, that's often most important. You can pick up the specific laws and rules at issue in the text book, a hornbook, the "great" set of notes that circulates from year to year. There's no place else where you can engage in that mental process. If you treat class as just a place to write down factoids, you're seriously missing out.
8.20.2008 4:58pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
There is a conflict of methods here, and the costs and benefits are by no means clear or the same for all.

I was a student BL (before laptops), and found that taking good notes was a distraction from listening, but that if I didn't, I would miss important things. I experimented with a combination of audiotaping and taking still photos of the blackboard from time to time, but never had time to go back and review them. I most appreciated instructors who published notes produced by a competent grad student who was paid to do it, with the instructor correcting his draft to get the final version. That would have been easier if the grad student had been able to videotape the session, and today the tape could be distributed to students who might have missed classes. Richard Feynman did that, and produced his Lectures in Physics from it.

Laptops, and now handhelds, serve many purposes that the students might not want to relinquish, such as checking class schedules and updates, lab results, and a host of real time events that have become a part of the university environment. Professors intervene in that environment at some risk.
8.20.2008 4:58pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
If EV is correct that students learn better without laptops, then students who voluntarily dispense with laptops will get better grades.
The problem with this line of argument from runape and you is that there are positive externalities from class participation. It's not just that the laptop user would learn better without his laptop; it's that the class as a whole learns better when more people participate, and (in E.V.'s experience, I assume), laptops lead to less overall participation.

To reiterate what PatHMV said: it's not just about you.
8.20.2008 5:01pm
Old33 (mail):
So will EV's students have to play hangman, tic-tac-toe and other games on paper during class?

Is there a hard copy version of W.O.W. that we can play?
8.20.2008 5:03pm
wb (mail):
Perhaps this is because I never learned to type well to verbal input, but I serious question whether typing notes doesn't diminish one's concentration on the content, context and connotations of a presentation. In my experience hand written notes do. If a professor wishes to emphasize active listening, that is his/her prerogative as is the judgment that laptop use detracts from that environment, If a student doesn't care for that then s/he can choose a different professor.

Personally, when possible I don't allow internet access in classrooms. I've never taken a position on use of laptops without internet access.
8.20.2008 5:04pm
jab (mail):
I recently taught a graduate class in physics, and assigned one student as scribe for each class. They were responsible for taking detailed notes, then meeting with me for 30 minutes after class to go over such notes, and then the student had to copy the notes again to be sure they were legible. I then scanned said notes and made them available to the class online.

Students were still free to take their own notes. Honestly, I used this method because I just completed my first year on the tenure track, and was usually preparing my lectures all the way up into I gave them, and my notes were a mess. This way, I got a set of very clean notes at the end of each lecture.

The students actually really liked meeting with me one-on-one to discuss the notes... The class was small (only 9 students) so I rotated through the students fairly often, and got great feed-back on how they digesting the material long before the eventual final exam.
8.20.2008 5:04pm
PatHMV (mail) (www):
I love the criticisms of other law students who apparently merely "claim" to be distracted by their classmates surfing, playing computer games, etc. It's all their fault if they are, anyway, and they should pay the laptop-addicts if they can't help but be distracted.

If you laptop-addicts can tolerate no other reason for banning laptops, consider this. As a lawyer, there will be many times in your career where your behavior is under the rigid control of others for hours, days, even weeks on end. When you're sitting at counsel table, if the judge says "no laptops while court is in session," you have zero choice but to comply, and no appellate court is going to interfere with the sound discretion of the trial court in such matters. Even if it's not laptops, there's undoubtedly going to be some other rule of decorum under which you chafe, but which you will have to accept, because it's a judge setting the tenor in his own courtroom. Consider this one class to be practice in the essential art of submission to lawful higher authority.
8.20.2008 5:05pm
runape (mail):

The problem with this line of argument from runape and you is that there are positive externalities from class participation. It's not just that the laptop user would learn better without his laptop; it's that the class as a whole learns better when more people participate, and (in E.V.'s experience, I assume), laptops lead to less overall participation.


Even assuming that there are positive externalities from participation, a flat ban on laptops is an inefficient means of achieving those gains. Students will recognize that group participation is welfare-enhancing and so will participate.

To the extent that there is a collective action problem, a ban alone is unlikely to do the trick. Class participation is a highly imperfect substitute for Internet surfing; better substitutes include, among other things, reading magazines, drawing, giving stupid answers to the professor's questions, or skipping altogether. So, unless Eugene intends to force students to participate, whatever positive externalities exist are unlikely to be realized simply through a ban.
8.20.2008 5:08pm
Humble Law Student (mail) (www):
EV,

I really think you should have given more notice, especially before such an "experiement." I don't know if it was practical or not, but perhaps it would have been better to circulate such an email during class signups--not a few weeks before classes begin.
8.20.2008 5:08pm
wb (mail):
I should have added that I have always prepared careful class notes that I make available to the students immediately after class.
8.20.2008 5:10pm
Dissenter:
I'm well out of law school, but your concern is appreciated.

I never said that "all I care about was my grade" or that I didn't enjoy the study of law as an academic pursuit. But I often get the vibe that people on this website - most of whom went to top ten law schools - have the idea that all law grads have a $150K a year job guaranteed for them upon graduation. Coming from a state school, I can assure you that's not true. And I knew that when I interviewed with firms, it was better to be the guy with "Order of the Coif" on his resume than the guy who says, "True, my GPA is low, but I learned so much more than those pedants who only cared about their final grade."
8.20.2008 5:11pm
runape (mail):
"If a student doesn't care for that then s/he can choose a different professor."

This is only true for certain classes. Eugene, in which class are you mandating your commie-pinko preferences?
8.20.2008 5:11pm
runape (mail):
"Students will recognize that group participation is welfare-enhancing and so will participate."

Edit: "Students will recognize that group participation is welfare-enhancing and so will participate until the marginal costs exceed the benefits." Which I expect will happen pretty quick.
8.20.2008 5:14pm
Anony:
My assumption is that this policy applies to EV's 1L class this semester. So these students can't opt out, drop the class, or take a different section.

Talk about guinea pigs.
8.20.2008 5:22pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
To the extent that there is a collective action problem, a ban alone is unlikely to do the trick. Class participation is a highly imperfect substitute for Internet surfing; better substitutes include, among other things, reading magazines, drawing, giving stupid answers to the professor's questions, or skipping altogether.
Well, unless the ABA has changed its rules since I went to law school, "skipping altogether" gets penalized. As for other substitutes, laptop use is one of the few that, to the professor, looks the same whether it's educational or entertaining. ("Stupid answers" carries with it its own penalty, in the form of social stigma.)

You also ignore the fact that laptops are an attractive nuisance. Students may well be willing to participate, but with so many alternatives provided by a laptop may be readily distracted. Removing the laptop doesn't force constructive participation, but removes an impediment to it.

(Of course, there were some classes where one came prepared with a magazine, but we can all be certain that E.V. isn't that boring professor who's been teaching the same class for 30 years and is just going through the motions.)
8.20.2008 5:24pm
jgshapiro (mail):

The students with the laptops are conducting a MASSIVE and risky experiment that they will do better trying to type nearly verbatim notes rather than focusing on the class discussions and trying to absorb the lesson rather than memorize it.

Yes, but the results of their experiment will fall on them, so let them try it if they think it will work. The problem with EV's experiment is that the effects of it fall on others, and those others have no choice in the matter (unless this policy is only used for optional classes).


When you're sitting at counsel table, if the judge says "no laptops while court is in session," you have zero choice but to comply, and no appellate court is going to interfere with the sound discretion of the trial court in such matters.

That rule will apply to all counsel, including opposing counsel, so everyone is at least playing by the same rules. EV's rules apply only to his classes, so students fortunate or unfortunate to take other professors for the same class will be under a different rule -- but they are all under the same grading curve. It is as though the judge let the plaintiff's counsel use a laptop, but not the defendant's counsel, or vice-versa.

Either the rule should be the same for everyone taking a certain class (contracts, for example) regardless of professor, or it should only apply for optional classes.
8.20.2008 5:26pm
runape (mail):

You also ignore the fact that laptops are an attractive nuisance. Students may well be willing to participate, but with so many alternatives provided by a laptop may be readily distracted. Removing the laptop doesn't force constructive participation, but removes an impediment to it.


I am with you in theory, and think that is the best justification for Eugene's rule. But I don't think the data backs this up. I could be wrong, but my sense is that most people who use laptops for purposes other than learning are doing so because they just don't care, and not because they're distracted against their better judgment.
8.20.2008 5:27pm
Anony:
PatHMV: Considering the libertarian streak that runs through this site and its readership, an appeal to practicing the "essential art of submission to lawful higher authority" is not going to win you many supporters.

Sometimes strict control by an authority figure is necessary. Judges, military officers, etc. fall into that category. If I ever felt the need to practice such submission, I'd move to Beijing, not UCLA.
8.20.2008 5:29pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
The problem with EV's experiment is that the effects of it fall on others, and those others have no choice in the matter (unless this policy is only used for optional classes).
Perhaps, but it's sort of odd to call "returning to the way things were for decades" to be an "experiment," don't you think?
8.20.2008 5:30pm
Brenda (mail):
Can anyone tell me (class of '82) if students still bring Gilbert's to class and just annotate that?
8.20.2008 5:30pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
Oops. Hit return too soon. Meant to add:

Sheesh. To read some of these comments, you'd think E.V. was proposing to force students to memorize the class in iambic pentameter. Students have taken notes by hand for a very long time.
8.20.2008 5:31pm
FlimFlamSam:
I'm not a fan of the rule. I didn't pay attention at all in class and did perfectly fine (high grades, law review, etc.). I would have wanted to shoot myself had I not had a laptop available to distract myself from the idiocy that is typically spewed during in-class discussions.
8.20.2008 5:32pm
LM (mail):
jgshapiro,

The curve is applied section by section. The students in the no-laptop section will all take the same exam and compete only against each other. Who's disadvantaged?
8.20.2008 5:35pm
DNL (mail):
Yikes.


I went to a second-tier law school and did very well (Order of the Coif, Law Review). I went to a very good (an Ivy reject school) undergrad institution and did very poorly.


There are two big reasons for the difference: maturity and my laptop.


The former requires no explanation. The latter, naturally, does. I learn better when the class moves faster, and I obviously can't control for that. So instead, I fill the dead time when the professor goes off on an uninteresting tangent and/or when a student's question meanders. FreeCell and Spider Solitare, sure, but more heavy games as well.


NB that my school did not have wifi access in the classroom, which was probably a good thing for me. But in the end: different people learn differently, and taking away my "distraction" would have just lead my mind to wander.
8.20.2008 5:36pm
anon.:
You are making your students into Guinea pigs, and if the experiment fails, the consequences will fall mainly on them.

This bears repeating 1000 times. Eugene knows how competitive law school is. If having a laptop in class makes the difference between taking notes that net the student an A- at the end of the term instead of a B, that's a huge deal.

Students should be allowed to take notes in whatever manner works for them, as long as it doesn't distract students around them. I'm fine with a no-Internet rule, because having someone surf the Internet in front of you is distracting. But banning laptops is just going to put students who do better with laptops at an unnecessary disadvantage.
8.20.2008 5:36pm
Anony:

LM: "Who's disadvantaged?"


Some students may learn better without laptops. Some may learn better with laptops. In a typical class, students can make that decision themselves and (presumably) make a rational choice. In EV's class, a student who learns better with a laptop is disadvantaged compared to an identical student in a different section.

EV is taking that choice away from students, and a lot of us are very skeptical whenever that sort of action occurs.
8.20.2008 5:40pm
JosephSlater (mail):
you'd think E.V. was proposing to force students to memorize the class in iambic pentameter.

You make a valid point. But for the record, it would totally rule if anyone could memorize a class that way.
8.20.2008 5:41pm
cjwynes (mail):
I like the idea. I started law school in 2001, and I was one of the maybe 33% who did NOT have a laptop. All I ever saw students doing with their laptops was fooling around on them -- although I simply can't imagine paying UCLA thousands of dollars to take a lecture with a leading legal scholar like Professor Volokh and then playing minesweeper and solitaire for the whole hour.

I also agree that note taking should not be verbatim, and that laptops tend to encourage unfiltered notes. My outlining process for final exams started the moment the words came from the professor's lips. I organized everything into bullet-point lists as they lectured, placed headings and subheadings on the page as they switched topics, and filled the pages with arrows relating topics back to previous ones, etc. When it came time to do the concise 15-page outlines I always made at the end of the year, my class notes already had the wheat separated from the chaff and had the topics somewhat organized, so that writing the outline became a part of the studying and not just preparation for it.
8.20.2008 5:42pm
Anony:
cjwynes,

If 2/3 of your classmates used laptops and spent much of their time fooling around, isn't that a good thing for you? That should put you ahead of the curve.

So what's your incentive to ban laptops and prevent those people from sinking their own ship? Unless, of course, some people learn BETTER with laptops, and a good hand-notetaker has an advantage if laptops are removed. Hmm...
8.20.2008 5:48pm
Dan H:
Professor Kenneth Elzinga does this in his Antitrust course for undergraduates, which is run on a Socratic method/case book format. Works excellently; the note-taker gets a free pass from cold calling for the day, so there is incentive for students to volunteer.
8.20.2008 5:48pm
Former EV Student (mail):
As one of EV's former [A] students, I will point out the following:

EV's Con Law II (Free Speech) textbook already provides an outline which serves as a veritable set of preprinted notes (as one commenter suggested he might provide). I found it to be quite good. You don't really need thorough notes in this class, because the ball is not hidden. He uses the classes as practice using the material, not as the primary forum in which to reveal the material (you get that from the cases and from his outlines synthesizing the cases).

Though I don't think it matters much, my only concern is whom to trust with the task of notes typer. I don't think I'd be comfortable having that one person be responsible for getting everything done. And what pressure for that poor student!

Thought! Is EV's new method subtly communist? Having the single typist seems like a tacit admission that laptop notetaking is ultimately better for the individual student. EV's plan seems to be to diminish each individual's capacity to record information (by robbing them of their laptop) for the sake of the group discussion.
8.20.2008 5:49pm
tarheel:
I have yet to see a strong argument against adopting the middle ground -- just cut off the wifi in the room (which I am quite sure is possible) so people can take notes on a laptop but can't surf the internet.

If people think taking notes is a good idea, there is no reasonable argument why someone should not be able to take them on a laptop with no internet capability.
8.20.2008 5:49pm
LM (mail):
Anony,

That's a different question. Read jgshapiro's comment for what I was responding to. But to your point, when laptops are allowed, those who are distracted by them are disadvantaged. Every environment has conditions more or less amenable to some than others. EV is just trying an alternative to find out what's most conducive to classroom participation.
8.20.2008 5:50pm
Bored 3L:
I was in a class with a similar policy. One thing I learned was that the person taking notes turns into a complete automaton. They don't actually listen because they have become nothing but a scribe. For no other reason, although I think there are several, I think this tends to be a bad idea.
8.20.2008 5:52pm
panthan (mail):
As an engineering professor, I find this discussion interesting. In over ten years of teaching, I have had exactly one student bring a laptop to class. Truthfully, I can't imagine a class in which a laptop would be a benefit.
8.20.2008 5:54pm
Witness (mail):
I hope this isn't for a required class. My hand cramps after about 5 minutes of note-taking, and there's no way I'd rely on a fellow student, so I'd probably have to drop this class unless granted an exception. Really weak that more notice wasn't given.
8.20.2008 5:55pm
Witness (mail):
I'm with tarheel -- why not just disable the WiFi in the room??
8.20.2008 5:57pm
Anony:
LM,

I don't think it's a different question. In the end, the students in EV's section will be compared to the students in other sections who were allowed to use laptops. Sure, environments always differ, but here EV is throwing in another variable with little warning and no ability to opt out. In a forced-curve zero-sum atmosphere, that's going to affect the outcomes somewhat.
8.20.2008 5:59pm
oledrunk3 (mail):
This professor might well strive to improve his lectures.
8.20.2008 6:01pm
LM (mail):

In the end, the students in EV's section will be compared to the students in other sections who were allowed to use laptops.

How? Certainly not in determining the grade for this class?
8.20.2008 6:09pm
Harvard08Grad (mail):
I just recently graduated law school. My first-year property prof tried this exact same experiment. Halfway through the semester, he gave up and let us bring laptops. I had two problems with the policy:

1. Everyone takes notes differently. I almost always hated trying to read someone else's notes. First of all, they thought different things were important than I did. Secondly, for me at least, someone else's notes are meaningless. Only MY notes usefully remind me of what we were talking about at that moment.

2. The teacher was excruciatingly uninteresting. The classes were 90-minute vanity rants on things he liked to think about. I think he showed very little respect for the students needs, for one thing, with that lesson plan, but also, it was death to not have a distraction. I would either cut class or pass notes to my friends the old fashioned way. I merely resented him more and still did not participate. Or worse, I would skip because I couldn't face an hour and a half of his noodling about things only interesting to him.

Final point: I often did choose to take paper notes rather than laptop notes because it was easier for me to pay attention and less distracting. One thing professors don't like to hear is that it's not just the lazy, ungrateful students' fault for bringing laptops and not hanging on their every word. Sometimes it is the professor's lack of preparation, planning, and good teaching.

Jody Freeman, in contrast, was one of the best profs I had, and I think she banned laptops. I can't really remember though, because everyone participated anyway. She was engaging and relevant.

If I ever browsed the interweb with a glazed look in my eye hour after hour, it was, to me, a teacher evaluation.
8.20.2008 6:09pm
BCN:
I never went to law school, but I did go to graduate school in economics, this was pre-laptop era. I may just be getting old, but I cannot imagine taking classes with a laptop and doing well. I currently work in the IT arena and work exclusively on computers/laptops and I still would rather take hand written notes. I had no problem taking detailed notes while in class while still being involved and active. I think this is an important skill to learn.

As for the people who are being "forced" to use someone else’s note, just take your own, or is that not a skill that students have anymore? If you want them in your computer and not a notebook re-type them when you get home, this is probably a good learning exercise as well.

I have actually found that the ability to take good hand written notes at work is a very valuable skill. No meetings I go to have anyone sitting at the table typing, they are discussing the issue, and often my notes are the only ones that come out of the meeting.
8.20.2008 6:10pm
John Burgess (mail) (www):
Eugene: Reading the whining comments above, I suggest you resign from your position. You can then spend your time petitioning the State of California to close UCLA's Law School. After that, all law schools.

It's quite clear that the purpose of schools and law schools has been subverted by an egocentricity that can only bring smiles to the dead mouths of Derrida and Lacan.

The lawyers don't have to be killed, just put out of work....
8.20.2008 6:11pm
Cactus Jack:
I have the sense that class discussions are more interesting to law professors rather than law students. I didn't find class discussions useful as a participant or interesting as a mere listener. Frequently, class discussions were opportunities for the gunners to drag the discussion away to an irrelevant tangent or needlessly drill down on an insignificant detail. I suspect that removing laptops will not change this.

Also, I handwrote notes for one semester and used the laptop each other semester. When handwriting, I wrote too slow and often failed to accurately record important points. Notwithstanding the distractive allure of the internet, I found that my understanding of the material was greater in scope and depth when typing notes in class.

I also tend to discount the argument that nontypists are distracted by the flickering screens of internet browing and game playing layabouts. When I handwrote, I was either looking at the professor, my notes or out the window.

Obviously, YMMV.
8.20.2008 6:13pm
Sean M:
I am a current 2L. I sit in the front and take notes by hand. I am distracted by other's laptops and would be distracted by my own if I brought it.

That said, I am opposed to this policy.

I feel that other students surfing Facebook and IM'ing one another makes them learn less. This, in turn, allows me to have better performance on the end of term examination than them. If there were no laptops, their performance might improve and mine might suffer.

As a result, for self-interested reasons, I oppose this policy.
8.20.2008 6:17pm
LM (mail):
John Burgess,

If the comments here were remotely representative of the lawyers I know, I'd agree. They're not and I don't.
8.20.2008 6:18pm
Dilan Esper (mail) (www):
I went to law school 92-95, and I was one of a very few students who used a laptop in class. At that time, of course, the people who were using laptops were among the best, most prepared students, and there wasn't much goofing off because most of us didn't even have Windows Solitaire and there was no wi-fi.

The problem is if you have wi-fi and games and 95 percent of the class using laptops, I can very much see Professor Volokh's point that it could interfere with the class. And frankly, if I had been told to leave my laptop at home, I would have been able to do fine in law school relying on ordinary notes.
8.20.2008 6:26pm
KWC (mail):
Harvard08Grad:

"just recently"?

You should know better.
8.20.2008 6:31pm
Witness (mail):
There's a word for people who get "distracted" by bright shiny things on laptop screens. I'd say what that word is, but I might have to meet with Tim Shriver and do a stint in rehab.
8.20.2008 6:31pm
Avatar (mail):
It's easy to say "if you don't like his policies, don't take his class". However, the majority of these students will not have known about his no-laptop policy before selecting his section, and to be sure, none of them knew about it before selecting his university for their legal education.

At this late date, the student who disagrees with being a participant in EV's pedagogical experiment will incur significant transactional costs in declining to do so. At the least, they will have to shuffle their schedules in order to take courses from professors with less draconian restrictions on technology. At worst, they would have to move their domicile and go to another law school (or abandon their legal career altogether, and you can be sure that the school will not be refunding any tuition already paid!)

I'm hardly assuming that a class discussion run by EV would be boring; I certainly don't find his blog boring. At the same time, some students might disagree, and attempting to augment the class discussion by encouraging participation by the bored and easily distracted does not sound like a winning strategy to me. ;p
8.20.2008 6:42pm
Don Miller (mail) (www):
I don't see how anyone is considering this a one notetaker policy

If anything, it is a one transcriber policy.

The good Professor specifically told his students to bring a pad of paper and a pen. What do you think that was for?

I am an indifferent notetaker. I am primarily an auditory learner. I used a notepad to jot down key references and ideas, but never attempted to transcribe everything that happened in a class.

Having someone else transcribe the whole lecture so that I can pay attention to what is being said would be a dream come true. Then I would have something to reference my handwritten notes too when I was studying later.

BTW, I've been a programmer/network professional for over 20 years. When I go to meetings, I still just bring a pen and pad of paper to take notes on, unless there is something on my computer that is absolutely essential for the meeting.
8.20.2008 6:43pm
frankcross (mail):
I'm a little hurt. I thought I made a solid point about the need to eliminate secret intra-student communication during class. And everyone is ignoring me.
8.20.2008 6:44pm
George Weiss (mail) (www):
agree with the problem of the note taker begin an idiot. allow students to bring in paper and pen or give pre printed notes (which may be impossible if you incorporate student comments into the test)
8.20.2008 6:49pm
Steve in CA (mail):
I went to college in the late '90s, when no college students had laptops. I can't imagine how distracting it would be to hear 50 people tapping away at their keyboards to record every word the professor says -- and when you're tying notes, you can go very fast, so the temptation is strong to just take down everything.

Beyond that, I really can't imagine how distracting it must be as a professor. I've never considered a career in academia, so this hadn't occured to me until just now, but if I were giving a lecture and I had to stare out at 50, or 500, open laptops instead of the students' faces, I'd lost my mind. There's no doubt I'd ban laptops.
8.20.2008 7:03pm
Dilan Esper (mail) (www):
At this late date, the student who disagrees with being a participant in EV's pedagogical experiment will incur significant transactional costs in declining to do so.

I have to respond to this. I'm like the last guy to defend everything that is taught on in law schools, but "pedogogical experimentation" could also be labeled "academic freedom". That's right, every time a student sits down, he or she is a guinea pig for whatever methodology the professor wishes to use to convey the curriculum.

I had some professors (including a very popular one who has gone on to great success since leaving the law school I went to) who just read their outlines in class. I had some who were sort of vaguely Socratic. I had some who were so Socratic that Professor Kingsfield would have found them too strict. And I had at least one who used a teaching methodology so far out in left field that I don't even know that I could describe it here.

I happened to learn from all of them. Some students hated some of them and avoided their classes when they could.

But Professor Volokh has the right to teach his material any damned way he well pleases to, as long as he covers the topics the university wants him to cover. In this sense, the students don't have a say (except by negatively evaluating him which could theoretically affect his teaching methods in the future).
8.20.2008 7:03pm
John S. (mail):
I'm a working professional/part time engineering grad student, so it's not exactly the same as law school. But I find the best classes are the ones where the professor distributes notes before every class, which means I only have to annotate rather than scrawl them out (differential eqations are miserable to type out, so a laptop isn't really an option.). This definitely promotes a focus on listening and participating in class.

Perhaps if Eugene provided the notes for the students rather than having a student take them, it would be more fair, since they wouldn't be dependent upon another student's typed notes?
8.20.2008 7:11pm
SassKwatch:
Perhaps I missed something in Prof V's post, but I don't recall him saying anyone in class would be prohibited from taking the notes the 'old school' way....pen &paper.

Ergo, there's no need for any of his students to fret about using someone else's notes. If they don't like the computer generated notes from one of their colleagues, don't use 'em.(??)

In the end, I suspect this experiment will prove little as good notetakers will probably be good notetakers....regardless of the tools at their disposal. And those who may attempt to shrink from participation by looking busy behind their laptop screens will find other ways to not participate.
8.20.2008 7:20pm
Cindy:
I went to college in the late '90s, when no college students had laptops. I can't imagine how distracting it would be to hear 50 people tapping away at their keyboards to record every word the professor says -- and when you're tying notes, you can go very fast, so the temptation is strong to just take down everything.


In my law school classes, very few people were taking notes most of the time. When the professor actually said something useful, though, everyone would start tapping away. This was great if your attention had been wandering -- the typing noises were an excellent signal that you should start paying attention again. (The rest of the time you just heard mouse clicks from people playing solitaire and free cell.)
8.20.2008 7:31pm
KeithK (mail):

I feel that other students surfing Facebook and IM'ing one another makes them learn less. This, in turn, allows me to have better performance on the end of term examination than them. If there were no laptops, their performance might improve and mine might suffer.

As a result, for self-interested reasons, I oppose this policy.


I assume Professor Volokh wishes to have all of his students perform and learn to the best of their abilities. So this line of argument - while rational from a student's perspective - isn't really relevant.
8.20.2008 7:53pm
tarheel:
KeithK: True, but he is still grading on a forced curve (I assume for a 1L class), so no matter how well the class as a whole does, someone is getting a D and someone is getting an A.
8.20.2008 8:06pm
BRM:
Current 3L. I take my notes in outline form, and I work very hard to know the material beforehand so I can organize the important parts of class discussion into an outline of some sort. Then when I have to make my class outline to prepare for the exam, I have already done most of the work. I would never just type out everything the teacher is saying. Who has time to read through all of that and sift out the important stuff?

This style of notetaking is very difficult to do by hand because you can't just insert lines when you come back to a new topic. The few times I have taken notes by hand, I get messy disasters with arrows all over the place, and I have to spend a long time trying to recreate them into an outline at the end of the class.

I don't think this style is that rare, either. At least half the time when I borrow a fellow student's notes, they have used a similar outline style. That is the power of computer note taking. I know some people just transcribe what is said, but that is their choice. It is also each student's choice whether to spend class time buying shoes or playing games. I prefer to be given the freedom to make such choices.

If you want students to pay attention more closely, just cold call at random and refuse to let students immediately pass. Students should be embarrassed for not being prepared. Students sit in class now and play games because there are no consequences except the need to spend more time studying later.
8.20.2008 8:12pm
Sum Budy:
Two quick issues:

(1) My main reason for using a laptop? Because I find taking notes by hand physically painful. Throughout undergrad, I felt that I did worse on three-hour exams simply because my hand would cramp up and become useless after only an hour. Laptops make it much easier to focus on the class rather than focus on the amount of pain I'm feeling.

And yes, I did see a doctor about it. His suggestion was that I re-learn how to handwrite. Not very useful.

(2) I can't understand the criticism of "verbatim" note taking. Yes, my style of notes is to write down verbatim what the professor is saying during straight lecture. But, so what? I participated in all my classes, and my note-taking style worked for me. In fact, there were many times when I couldn't comprehend what the professor said during the lecture (even upon repeatedly asking questions and/or approaching the professor after class), but upon reviewing my notes weeks later in view of the semester as a whole, everything suddenly made sense. And, if I hadn't been copying it verbatim, I would have missed a subtle point (many of which came up on final exams).

If this is my learning style, why not let me choose to do what works best for me?
8.20.2008 9:21pm
Sum Budy:
Just another quick point about the one note-taker policy.

Obviously, when I missed a class, I would "borrow" somebody else's notes from that day's class. For one class, I borrowed notes from two friends. After reviewing their notes, I remember thinking how absolutely horrible they were -- few details, incomprehensible, etc.

At the end of the year, all three of us -- including me and the authors of the horrible notes -- had GPAs at the top of our class.

The moral of the story? Notes are a very personal thing; what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.

It's also worth noting (no pub intended) that although I tend to copy professors' words verbatim, I also annotate my notes with my own thoughts throughout. This lets me think through what the professor is saying and record my disagreements or confusion for later review. It would be almost impossible to do this by hand or with somebody else's notes.
8.20.2008 9:35pm
Sarah (mail) (www):
The only classes I took where a laptop wouldn't be especially helpful were Russian -- and that's only because I type incredibly slowly in Russian, even with my cheating translit "student" character map. I type around 100 wpm -- I never captured anything necessary in my handwritten notes, in the sense of "something that wasn't in the required readings," except the one day when my history prof told us that a 5% extra credit question on the final exam was going to be the color of his tie on that particular afternoon (I think four or five of us showed up out of a 25-person class.) He wasn't wearing a tie that day; I think it was the the day after a winning football game against Michigan or something.

On the other hand, if a class is primarily about learning how to think, rather than assimilating simple information, there's no particular advantage to note-taking at all. I had no trouble following along and getting the correct answers when I sat in on second-year law classes my mom was in a few years ago, and all I had to help me was the casebook. Of course, most of the people in that classroom were ignoring the discussion completely, because some blowhard in the back had decided to go on a completely unrelated tangent. It sort of made me re-think the value of law school, actually.
8.20.2008 9:39pm
Skyler (mail) (www):
Why would I ever want to rely on some other lunk head to write my notes for me?

I might, but I choose whom I get notes from, when I need them, quite carefully.

I like it best when the professor hands out his own notes or learning points. I don't see the point in keeping things secret. You still have to learn it even if it is already on a paper for you, with professor supplied notes you're more likely to learn the subtleties that you might miss in class. Law school is supposed to have a lot of nuance and subtlety so it's natural that you won't catch them all when they are exclusively imparted orally. The important thing is to learn, not play "I've got a secret" with your students.
8.20.2008 10:00pm
ASlyJD (mail):
I'm a 2L. My Civ Pro prof this semester is trying this policy: a "distraction ghetto" in the back of the classroom. Students who want to check e-mail, surf the internet, and generally use their laptops in ways that could be distracting sit at the back of the class. Thus they only distract each other. The front 2/3 of the class are allowed to have laptops for note-taking only, and if they start surfing, peer pressure and/or ratting out to the professor will take care of the problem.

This seems like a good compromise.
8.20.2008 10:02pm
Ace:
Why not use the free market approach? Draft your exams so that students who focus and pay attention in class do better.
8.20.2008 10:34pm
Pauldom:
I teach grad students in a different discipline. I ban laptop use during class for all the many reasons enumerated here. Some of you believe that students will "quickly" figure out that laptops impair the learning environment. How "quickly" can that happen if they receive only one grade at the end of the semester? EV is better able to determine what is likely to benefit the class because he teaches the same class multiple times. Students take a given class from a given professor only once.

My advice:

* Don't call it an "experiment." If you think the laptop ban will benefit this class, ban the laptops. You can reflect later on whether the ban was as useful as you expected. Telling students that you're experimenting on them will just upset them. Every revision you make to the class is in a sense this same "experiment."

* "Advanced" warning, as opposed to those "beginner" level warnings? :) I think you mean "advance warning." (if I may indulge a peeve)

* I usually distribute the outline I use to teach from. Students can annotate that pretty easily, and it is handy when students return after an absence to ask, "Did I miss anything?"
8.20.2008 11:13pm
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
Laptop policy: Fine.
Assigning one student each class to take "official" notes for the class to share with everyone: Fine.
Not letting students take their own notes: Absolutely terrible idea. I urged you NOT to do this.
8.21.2008 12:01am
David M. Nieporent (www):
Jon: where on earth do you see "not letting students take their own notes" in what he wrote? They just can't do it on a laptop, which is the "laptop policy" you just said was "fine."
8.21.2008 12:31am
CDU (mail) (www):
One further disadvantage of designated notetakers that I don't think anyone's raised yet: for many people, the purpose of notes is not really to look at them after class. Instead the very act of organizing their thoughts and putting them down on paper helps solidify the concepts in their mind. If notetaking is somebody else's responsibility, they totally loose this chance to get what the professor is talking about into their long-term memory.
8.21.2008 12:33am
Jim Graves (www):
Prof. Volokh,

Have the professors who've already run this experiment seen any improvement in exam quality? That seems a better indicator of the usefulness of a laptop ban.

The best measure of whether students learn more without laptops is not whether they're participating more in class discussion, but whether they do better on the final exams. Exams are also the way most students measure their learning; if class discussion increases but test scores decrease, would your policy really help students? I doubt the students would think so.

By the way, were the no-laptop student surveys taken before or after grades had been reported?

Some of the justifications for a no-laptop policy are pretty weak. They seem to boil down to these:

(1) With laptops, students spend more time transcribing and less time thinking. Maybe so. The question is whether transcribing is really as bad as people think. Come exam time, it can be helpful to have a lot of detail recorded—details that would be lost by some students who had to take notes manually.

(2) Students with laptops are too easily distracted. So are students without laptops. Anyway, a student bears the risk of his choice. There's some merit to the argument that students with laptops distract other students, but I think those effects are overstated.

(3) Removing laptops increases class participation. That's probably true. But the same objective can be achieved through less drastic means. Call on students directly. Don't let them off with a "pass." Push the discussion. Do you think something as trivial as a laptop would keep Prof. Kingsfield from grilling a student? Maybe some of the lack of participation isn't just laptops, but the decline of the old-school Socratic method. At any rate, class participation isn't the ultimate goal; learning is (or grades). Class participation is only valuable if it improves learning.

(4) "I made it through law school without a laptop, these kids can too." Nonsense. By this logic, any technology invented since the first law degree was granted is pointless. After all, if Aaron Burr could learn law in the one-room Litchfield school in 1774, why should the modern student need anything more? The question in evaluating a new tool is not whether people were able to do without it, it's whether the tool is useful.

(5) Banning laptops makes class more interesting for the students. Two responses here: (a) not all students think classes with more discussion are actually more interesting, and (b) the point of school is not entertainment, it's education. I don't want to be bored, but I'd rather be bored and learn than get empty entertainment.

(6) Banning laptops makes class more interesting for the professor. Irrelevant. I don't care if the professor is entertained. I do a lot of work that isn't entertaining; that's why they have to pay me to do it.

The real question is: if taking classes without laptops is so much better for the student than using a laptop, why don't all the students eschew laptops? Law students are pretty focused on grades, and if they know that students who don't use laptops get better grades then those who do, your classrooms would all be keyboard-free. That students cling to laptops suggests that (a) students are irrational, (b) laptop users don't actually score worse than students who don't use laptops, or (c) laptop users do score worse, but they don't find that out until too late because they don't get any feedback until that all-important final exam. Although (a) is a distinct possibility, both (b) and (c) deserve testing before implementing a laptop ban. Unfortunately, your experiment won't test either of those, because everyone will be without a laptop. There's no control group.

Laptop bans are paternalistic and patronizing. They reflect an "I know what's best for you, so do as your told" mentality that's ill-suited to a professional school filled with adults, each of whom are capable of making their own decisions regarding their study methods. Blanket bans ignore—or just don't care about—the fact that people learn in different ways. Some do better with laptops. Some do better without. Do you really know each of your students well enough to say that you know better than they do how they should learn?
8.21.2008 12:36am
BRM:
There is another explanation for rampant student laptop use. I'm pretty sure this is true of at least some students.

Students do almost all of their learning outside the classroom. They attend class to make sure they don't miss something important. As long as class is just standard discussion and not seemingly important, then students will use laptops to stay entertained (or to multitask) while they wait for one or two moments in each class when something important happens.
8.21.2008 12:51am
Jon Rowe (mail) (www):
I may have misread it:


(1) no laptops in class — that's no laptops, not just no Internet access — but

(2) one student per day will take notes [on a laptop,] which will then be circulated to the entire class.


I read #2 as saying only one student in the class "will" take notes for the entire class and others therefore would be banned from taking notes at all. If he's saying that one student gets to take laptop notes and everyone else can take notes by hand, fine.
8.21.2008 12:53am
theobromophile (www):
I've handwritten and typed notes.

Two (huge) advantages to typing (at least for me):
1. I took down most everything the professor said, and found - usually one class per semester - that questions on the final would include some throwaway comment by the prof. that, thankfully, made its way into my outline; and
2. during 2L and 3L year, I structured my class notes so that they would go almost directly into my outline with minimal reformatting.

I didn't want to do the verbatim note thing, nor miss out on what could be (and what had proved to be) useful comments, so I always included a section of "Notes" with bullet points of the prof's comments.

The one drawback to handwriting is the sheer tedium of typing up what is already very neat ("[theo] font", as my friends call it) and organised.
8.21.2008 1:30am
UCLA 2L:
As one of the two people in my 1L classes who took notes by hand, I think this is a great idea. I firmly believe that taking notes by hand forces the note-taker to distill what's being taught by the professor and write down what's important. As for typing up notes at the end of the term for an outline - what's the need? By only writing down what's important and distilling that information as you write it, your handwritten notes become the outline....
8.21.2008 2:13am
Roger Schlafly (www):
But are you going to ban iPhones and ipods? From a NY Times article on iPods:
Robert S. Summers, who has taught at Cornell Law School for about 40 years, announced this week — in a detailed, footnoted memorandum — that he would ban laptop computers from his class on contract law.

“I would ban that too if I knew the students were using it in class,” Professor Summers said of the iPhone, after the device and its capabilities were explained to him. “What we want to encourage in these students is active intellectual experience, in which they develop the wide range of complex reasoning abilities required of the good lawyers.”
I think that you need to ban ipods if you want to be on the cutting edge of this new trend.
8.21.2008 3:49am
BC (mail):
I think this is a terrible idea. As a 2000 graduate of a top-5 rated law school, I was bored to tears by most of my classes and professors. Even worse was being forced to listen to the "classroom participation" of fellow students that thought they knew everything and were happy to prattle on for hours if allowed.

Maybe the school/professor should be more interested in improving the product it/he/she is selling to earn the wanted attention than to punish the consumer by attempting to remove more tempting fare.
8.21.2008 5:12am
AJ33:
This is an awful idea. People who get distracted by the big bad Internet should sit in the front - The End. Making the majority of the class miserable because of a couple of hypersensitive whiners is ridiculous. You advocate freedom so much in your posts but then restrict it in the place you have the most power. If someone wants to ignore the class, or a portion of it, let them. I do hope this nonsense doesn't become a trend.

P.S. There will be a lot of texting and, of course, iphone/blackberry browsing.
8.21.2008 7:59am
Simon P:
Eugene, please don't allow yourself to think that business will be as usual for you, under this policy.

I've had professors who attempted to invoke this kind of policy. What typically happens is that, while discussion will improve somewhat, the professors really aren't prepared to engage their students on a higher level. This ends up being extremely frustrating for those students who take the policy seriously and attempt to bring classroom discussion to the next level.

It can't just be socratic as usual. It can't just be the lesson plan plus the points you thought would be interesting. It's got to be a real full-court press. You've got to push your students with a new approach to classroom discussion, with new kinds of questions, new lines of thought. Otherwise, all you'll get is a slight improvement in participation and a lot of frustrated students who think you're an egotistical prick.
8.21.2008 9:15am
Another Commenter (mail):
Is there a hard copy version of W.O.W. that we can play?


yes, it's called AD&D.
8.21.2008 9:17am
Happyshooter:
I think this is a mistake. I crutched quite heavy on my laptop in class in law school. My wife and I spent what at the time was a lot of money for us, but it really helped me.

The nice thing about the laptop was that you not only took notes, but could adjust the outline while the prof was still talking and you had a good feel what what he was slanting towards.

That made it much easier to study and then feed his bias back to him on the exams. I did much better with the laptop.

Now, as a side note, your memo makes you sound like an overaged past retirement age oaf of a classroom bully.

"Goldarn you whippers! We never used these fancy paper pads and balls points pens when I started! In my class room you use parchment and a quill pen, and you will like it. I will let women in my class but they will sit in back and wear floor length dresses!"
8.21.2008 9:49am
Whadonna More:
1. Good experiments have control groups - this experiment does not.

2. Will you permit laptop use for exams? Back in the dark age (1996) I was one of a handful of laptop note-takers (I was a programmer by day) and think my grades suffered from having to write exams in unaccustomed longhand mode.