On January 16th, the New York Times reported that "the leaders of nine Jewish groups released an open letter on Tuesday condemning what they called 'hateful e-mails' that they said spread lies about Senator Barack Obama's religious beliefs and his intentions." As I've pointed out before, despite allegations that there was an anti-Obama email campaign targeting the Jewish community, the emails in question seemed to be written for a Christian audience, though they were also forwarded to Jews.
Flash-forward to this Fall. "Lies about [Sarah Palin's] religious beliefs and [her] intentions" are spreading like wildfire through the Jewish community. And this time, it's not a shadowy email campaign, but prominent bloggers and sometimes Obama spokesmen who are doing the spreading. And this time, Jews are the direct targets.
I've noted before false claims, at times emanating directly from the Obama camp, that Palin was a Pat Buchanan supporter in 2000 (she supported Steve Forbes), and that this in turn indicated that she is anti-Israel or even anti-Semitic.
Now Rep. Alcee Hastings tells a group of Jewish Democrats that Sarah Palin "don't care too much about what they do with Jews." His "evidence" is that she "tote[s] guns and hunt[s] moose.">
And people actually believe such nonsense. Here are two comments taken from a CNN comment board on an article describing the Hastings speech. These comments, which are riffs on the fact that a Jews for Jesus minister gave one lecture in her church (and which she has publicly said she disagrees with) are either written by actual Jewish readers, or by Obama sock puppets, and I'm not sure which is worse!
Anyone who believes, as Sarah Palin does, that the violence in the middle east is G-d's punishment to the Jews for not accepting Jesus as the Messiah, is no friend of the Jews, no matter how the GOP tries to cover that up. My grandparents, they should rest in peace, came here from Poland to get away from that kind of persecution. They would never vote for such a woman and neither will I.
Let's be honest, she is for "Jews for Jesus" Remember she was picked by McCain, showing his total lack of judgement [sic] and the fact he puts being elected first instead of "America First" Place the blame of her even being on the ticket where it belongs….John McCain!!!! Any Jew that votes for McCain insted of Obama should be ashamed of themselves. 66 year old Jew born and raised in San Francisco
So, if a coalition of Jewish organizations thought it necessary to condemn a false anti-Obama email campaign in January, when the campaign does not seem to have targeted Jews, isn't it about time they condemn the much more open and blatant campaign of lies directed at Sarah Palin and targeting Jewish voters?
The point is to elect democrats. Consistency, fairness, honesty, integrity, even the interests of Jews, are either irrelevant or actual handicaps.
Clear, now?
I would feel better about Obama if he would condemn this guy for the disgraceful racist he is.
The strawman is on fire!! Ouch, it burns!
By the time the Jewish groups stood up, the emails had marinated and were sent around most Jewish households in the US. I don't have one Jewish relative who had not heard Obama was a secret Muslim and swore on the Koran, both statements of course being lies.
Right now, a one shot error by the Obama camp about whether Palin supported Buchanan in 2000 and some stray comment by a former impeached judge do not a trend make. In fact, most Dems I know are already aware that she supported Forbes, not Buchanan in 2000. And if you think most Dems believe what that defrocked judge said, then I think you are being overly credulous. There is, at this point, no equivalence to the anti-Obama defamations, not by a long shot.
What gives you the right to "come and say" what other posters are going to say? Why don't you "come and say" what you want to say, and let the others speak for themselves?
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4476649n
Some commenters believe just about anything. (Speak up if you believe Obama hates America!)
And let's be honest about this "delay the debates" game.....it's Palin, right?
However, I do have 2 collateral points:
1. As I said in the earlier thread, the real issue that is driving this dispute is that conservative Jews don't like it that the Iran / terrorism / Israel security issue hasn't worked in getting more Jews to vote Republican. They are distressed that their beautiful electoral strategy that they worked so hard on isn't working and are lashing out.
2. I also have to say, given Palin's increasingly obvious lack of qualification for the job (now McCain is trying to pull her out of the debate, and his aides prevented her from even answering a softball question at a photo-op today), that there's no particular reason why liberal Jews who want to see Barack Obama elected are going to want to go to bat for this particular person, even if in this case she actually got the shaft.
That said, giving that much of American voting, and American Jewish voting in particular, is based on who people find culturally simpatico, the strategy of portraying Palin as a white-trash evangelical fanatic is strategically sound, albeit dishonorable. The question is why "Jewish organizations" condemn the attempt to use an analogous strategy against Obama, but not against Palin.
That said, I can not resist the conclusion that this Couric interview was at times cringe-worthy. Especially the final question/answer in this clip.
Anticipated line of attack: "Obama can't string a sentence together w/o a teleprompter." My response: that proposition is debatable, and it is irrelevant to an assessment of Palin's Couric interview.
The fact that you found two commenters on the CNN board who interpret that to mean Palin agrees with Jews for Jesus is evidence of nothing relevant. People are, of course, wrong to draw that conclusion.
But just as it was unnecessary for any community to condemn the spread of the fact that Father Pfleger spoke at Obama's church, it is unnecessary for the Jewish community to condemn the spread of facts in this case.
Also, I see somewhat of a double-standard in your willingness to excuse her attendance of the church during the Jews for Jesus sermon --"it is not even remotely reasonable to believe that every congregant agrees with every word spoken by every guest speaker" --with your posts about Obama's affiliation with Rev. Wright.
I think we can agree that neither Palin or Obama is an anti-semite and that charges circulating on the internet to the contrary are unfair and improper.
You're missing the big picture. The issue is not whether she agrees or not with the Jews for Jesus platform, and whether that is indicative of her views of Jews. This is all a red herring, because in the end, she still thinks you're going to hell (unless you convert before the rapture of course, which will be hastened by the Jews moving to Israel . . . .)
So, the CNN commenter should have really said, "fellow Jews, if you want a president who doesn't believe you are eternally damned unless you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then Vote for Obama."
All they know about Sarah Palin is she's from Alaska, has a Down's Syndrome baby, hunts moose, and is "adorable."
A rabbi friend with a congregation in the Palm Beach area reports the same feedback on the Obama part. Most of his congregants, many initially pro-Obama, have been successfully demagogued with the secret-Muslim scare tactics.
(I haven't spoken with him recently enough to get his take on Palin.)
YMMV, but this is more persuasive to me than Internet surveys.
The final word on Jews, hunting and mooses(?) was Woody Allen's 60s era comedy routine that is on point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmnLRVWgnXU
Anyway, this whole thing is an irrelevancy speaking as a Jewish voter (and as Jewish voter, who, unlike "regular" voters, ostensibly pulls the levers from right to left). Jewish votes are concentrated in New York City, South Florida, and Los Angeles (and perhaps IL). NY, CA and IL are all solidly for Obama. FL, per most poll tracking sites, would probably go to McCain, were the election held today.
So the only set of likely mostly-Democratic Jewish votes that could have an impact are in FL. Unless there is a 2000-like margin of victory there, are there enough Jewish voters on the fence there to even make a difference? I doubt it.
Palin is the opposite. It's hard to believe she knows many Jews, easy to believe that she thinks we're all going to hell, and clearly is uninterested in distancing herself from her Dominionist ties. Hell, she was chosen in part to shore up the votes of those who think Jews are to blame for the financial crisis and that Israel is to blame for the Iraq war.
We Jews know that not everyone likes us. That's fine, you can have Alaska.
We have a winner! Thanks for providing further evidence for for my point. And by the way, I'd be willing to wager that of those who think "Israel is to blame for the Iraq War" are voting overwhelmingly for Obama, because this is a fringe view on the right, but appears routinely in mainstream sources (e.g., Joe Klein) on the left.
Well, my guess is that much of America is overwhelmingly voting for Obama, given that McCain is chickening out of the debates. There is antisemitism of this form on the left, especially in universities. It represents about 2% of the larger group that holds that position. 98% of the group are neo John Birchers, whose opposition to the war is based solely on the belief that American lives are worth 100 Iraqis, and who think that the Jews are to blame. You're suffering from selection bias. Travel to Arkansas some time and try classifying antisemites as leftists.
"Neobirchers" are a fringe. The folks that read Matthew Yglesias, Juan Cole, the Huffington Post, et al., are the heart of the Democratic Party, and the belief at such blogs that Israel is to blame for Iraq is standard. Not true at ANY mainstream conservative blog that I've seen.
Because they're run by liberal Jews? People have double standards; that's life. Anyway, regardless of how innocent Palin is of anti-Semitism, and I'm sure she is perfectly innocent, she doesn't belong anywhere near a national ticket. If McCain were a younger man, I could stomach the pick - it's not important that your Vice President be too qualified as long as there isn't much chance of their becoming President - but he's not a younger man.
You know, for someone who is very smart, you are sometimes too quick to assume the worst and make snap judgments about people whose politics differ from yours.
I will grant you that Palin is not an anti-semite and is not a Buchanan supporter (I am not sure that the two are co-extensive, anyway).
Yes, as you suggest, Wexler could have been lying when he said Palin was a Buchanan supporter. Or, maybe he was relying on the articles that reported this, but were inaccurate. Or, maybe he didn't do the Lexis/Nexis searching that you did, or isn't as good at conducting such searches as you are.
In terms of honesty and candor, I do know that Palin has been repeating, ad nauseum, that she said "Thanks but no thanks" to the "bridge to nowhere" without every mentioning her support for the project, that she dropped support for it after Congress didn't fund it, and that she did so only to lobby for other uses in Alaska for the money earmarked for the project. I watched her try to explain this inconsistency and she couldn't (she essentially defended the practice of asking for earmarks for local projects).
Personally, I feel that Palin is ill-used by cynical operatives in the McCain campaign, by being forced fed such lines and being kept from the press/public's questions. Let her speak and answer everyone's questions. She has an engaging personality and life story.
Getting back to your post's subject, I hardly think the distribution of the "Palin is anti-semite" stuff is equal to or as important as the spread of the "Obama is a closet muslim" nonsense. Do you have any proof, such as public opinion polls, showing that this belief about Palin is as widely held as the belief about Obama being a muslim? I saw a poll saying 20 percent of voters in some states thought Obama was a muslim (I will try to dig up the link). Also, Obama is at the top of the ticket so combating misinformation about him is more important than combating misinformation about Palin.
wow! DB asking for consistency from others? it might help if you display some yourself.
although it is perfectly reasonable if the person happens to be obama, no?
I read the Huffington Post every day, and I have never noticed such a suggestion (note: I never read the comment threads at the HP b/c they are too one-sided).
DB's suggestion did, however, pique my interest, so I did a quick google search to find such a post. I couldn't find one. Interestingly, the first HP post I found that discussed blaming Israel for Iraq-related issues was a post that criticized the NYT for a piece that attacked Israel, here.
I have no doubt that there is some HP post that blames Israel for something related to Iraq, and I am inclined to disagree with any such post. However, suggesting that the HP is rife with posts that blame Iraq on Israel is inaccurate.
I think DB's suggestion is the result of a widely held belief that the HP is the heartbeat of a extreme, radical, fringe segment of the Dem Party. I disagree with that sentiment. To me, the HP is the liberal version Instapundit -- very biased toward its political ideology, yet generally espousing intellectually supportable positions.
I could not find anything about how many people think Palin is an anti-semite.
But, I think your underlying post is really a complaint about how you think Jewish organizations suffer from liberal bias and that bias is keeping them silent about unfair criticisms of Palin being circulated in the Jewish community, correct?
I am not sure this example proves that point, because it is demonstrably true, from public opinion polls, that there has been very widespread and, more importantly, effective misinformation spread about Obama, in the community at large, whereas you do not post anything to show that the situation is remotely comparable vis-a-vis Palin.
Anyway, your underlying point, about liberal bias of Jewish organizations, may be true (I tend to you agree with you), but this example doesn't prove it, at least not to me.
"There's not too much difference between Republicans and Democrats in the deep South, but the antisemites all fall on one side."
Evidence? This is the exact opposite of my experience there. Dems appeal to resentful types among the non-elites. They're just as happy to resent Jews as Blacks, the Rich, Yankees, et. al. The R's tend to be New South business types, carpetbaggers, and evangelicals (who tend to love Jews, often for bizarre reasons), none of whom waste much time resenting anything other than the MSM.
To a lesser extent??? Are you kidding? Obama has been on the stage for over a year. Weeks after her nomination, Palin still won't answer spontaneous questions and has kept a rather low profile.
Besides, does intelligence count for anything in this country?
Obama is highly intelligent and not rash. You may dislike his policies or his values or his resume, but it takes a fool to claim he isn't exceptionally bright.
Palin, well, um, I think the record is beginning to speak for itself. Even on energy policy -- have you seen this? And now, several major whiffs -- again -- in only her 2nd proper interview?
Palin's main weakness isn't her thin resume, it is her average intellect, lack of curiosity about public policy, and her gut-level decision making, 3 traits that Obama doesn't have to any extent.
McCain made a rash decision to pick Palin, who has a history of rash decisions herself. Before this election, I would have assumed that every Governor in the US would know a good deal about public policy. Holy Moly. I was wrong. Either she is spectacularly uninformed to begin with, or not such a quick study. Either way, it reflects poorly on McCain's judgment.
Would you put money on the notion that Biden is smarter than Palin? If Obama was running a campaign designed to appeal to admirers of the cognitive elite, he chose the wrong running mate.
I am not aware of any metrics that show obama is "exceptionally bright and highly intelligent" - do you have any evidence?
[I know he is HLS grad and was an editor of HLR]
I am not saying he is not - based on their educational accomplishments I think he is smarter than the rest of the 3 candidates on the tickets - but the superlatives about his smarts need some backing.
(i remember most people assuming Gore and Kerry being very intelligent or bright etc. without much evidence to back it up, other than I like what he is saying so he must be smart)
In Tennessee primaries it was evident the black candidate didn't care much for the jewish guy that represented a majority black district around Memphis.
No comments on the presence of Hillary standing there cheering Hastings on? I don't think the National Jewish Democratic Coalition has ever called out any antisemites among its own ranks, e.g., Al Sharpton.
Conservatives (Jews and non-Jews) are lashing out because they would like to get traction with the argument that Democrats are dangerous because of their alleged and actual associations with various folks who seem scary to Jews (including, to be sure, some folks that actually should scare Jews and non-Jews, but also including some folks who are irrelevant).
That's what all the stuff, from Reverend Wright through the disinvitation of Sarah Palin, is all about. It's also what the focus on meeting with Iran without preconditions is all about. And a bunch of other issues.
Conservatives saw the nomination of Obama as a great chance to make inroads with Jews who traditionally voted Democratic but who might be scared. They have been working to make those inroads for years already by pushing a very hawkish, alarmist tone on Israel. It hasn't worked and they are lashing out.
Lots. Here's a randomly chosen, not particularly insightful paragraph from an old Biden interview. I'm sure you'll agree that there's more intellect displayed here than in any extemporaneous remarks Palin's ever made.
"M: Can I ask you a question? It seems that one of the shortcomings of the neoconservative worldview is precisely their focus on states.
B: Exactly right, bingo.
M: Okay.
B: You're one of only three goddamn guys that've gotten this.
M: Well, can you --
B: No, I really mean it, ask Norm [communication director Norm Kurz]. I mean Norm's had to sit through, listening to me in all these things. This is the point that I was trying desperately to make to my colleagues and I tried to articulate it on Stephanopoulos' show. The fundamental flaw in the neo -- forget flaw, the fundamental difference between Joe Biden, John Kerry on the one hand, and the neoconservatives on the other is that they genuinely believe -- I'll put it in the negative sense -- they do not believe it is possible for a sophisticated international criminal network that will rain terror upon a country, that has the potential to kill 3,000 or more people in a country, can exist without the sponsorship of a nation state. They really truly believe -- and this was the Axis of Evil speech -- if you were able to decapitate the regimes in Iran, Iraq, North Korea, you would in fact dry up the tentacles of terror. I think that is fundamentally flawed reasoning. If every one of those regimes became a liberal democracy tomorrow, does anybody think we wouldn't have Code Orange tomorrow in the United States? Rhetorical question. Does anybody think we don't have to worry about the next major event like Madrid occurring in Paris or Washington or Sao Paulo? Gimme a break. But they really believe this is the way to do it."
Link
www.thechrismatthewsshow.com/index.php
As for whether Biden or Palin is smarter, I leave that for you to judge. Biden is certainly more knowledgeable about foreign affairs and the judiciary. He does have a tendency to talk too much, which can sometimes cause him to say some stupid things, but his analysis is often intelligent. I think he is just a chatty guy who speaks his stream of consciousness too much.
Palin, it seems to me, has some "native" intelligence or shrewdness, and considerable confidence. Frankly, it is her extreme self-confidence that worries me, as she will likely make decisions without realizing how little she knows about something. Hopefully, she is a good listener, she has the patience to learn, and the ability to learn quickly. Her candidacy makes me wonder how many small town mayors out there might be undiscovered gems --small politicians ready for prime time, big league assignments. My own experience with local politicians has not led me to think there are many, but you never know.
In a nanosecond. I'm not saying the man is brilliant, but he's had some good ideas -- (con)federalism for Iraq, for example -- and performed pretty well in the Democratic debates. His performance in Senate committee hearings shows a good grasp of policy even as it is self-indulgent and rambling.
The point is that Palin is either a moron or has a very bad case of performance anxiety, which would be odd for a politician who "doesn't blink." Read the interview transcripts like you are grading an exam -- plenty of words, not much substance. There are mountains of circumstantial evidence as to her lack of academic chops not the least of which is her unwillingness to take spontaneous questions now. If there are innocent explanations for her hopscotching around schools in pursuit of a Bachelor's I have yet to read them. To be blunt... I partied my rear end off in college and graduated cum laude in 4 years. I'm not sure that politicians should be expected to be from the 'gifted and talented' set to be good leaders but they ought to be close and able to do their own analysis of complex policy matters. Is there any evidence that Palin can do so? Any whatsoever?
Apparently they do anonymous grading at HLS; Obama graduated Magna, which apparently puts him in the top 10% of his class -- a class of very intelligent people. I suppose that it is possible that Obama was an affirmative action admit with LSATs in the respectable but not superior range, but given that most everyone is working hard at law school, for him to outperform most of his class while being less smart than them suggests that either the HLS assessments or the LSATs are bunk. Do you really think so? He wasn't just an editor, but editor in chief of the review, an elected position that indicates a great deal of respect from his classmates in addition to his teachers. And then he taught a number of highly intelligent people at U Chicago Law School and got a good reputation. You can't teach subject matter than intellectually dense to a bunch of super-smart ambitious law students and bullshit your way through. There is no doubt that Obama could have had a career as a law professor had he chosen to. Plus, he wrote 2 books which you can read for yourself. Genius? Who knows, who cares, and who knows what that means in the first place. But he's more than "smart" -- I know lots of smart people, all of whom tested in the 95th if not 99th percentile, and very few or none of whom could have had Obama's academic career.
So, I don't know what you mean by "metrics" but getting outstanding grades at one of the world's most prestigious graduate programs qualifies for me.
Although I suspect the politics of fear are being intentionally deployed in a way that plays off soft bigotry, claiming that there is "no other reason" for Jews to support McCain is absurd. Why they would support Kerry over Bush and not Obama over McCain is a better question, but still, if you have talked yourself into believing that war with Iran will save Israel then McCain's your man. Plus, despite Hagee and Palin and a staunch pro-life stance, McCain is not a theocon or a hater. Neither was Bush, but if you want to talk yourself into voting Republican despite their litany of failures, McCain was a good choice for the GOP.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4476721n
Ask Muslims. He appears to qualify. This doesn't mean he believes, but from time to time you'll read that his raisin' makes him Muslim, whatever he thinks.
What is more disturbing is that such of our enemies who are themselves Muslim appear to prefer him to McCain.
What do they know that we don't?
To me, it's more important to see how they treat Jews in this world than to worry about what they think will happen to us in the next. Stalin didn't think Jews are going to hell, and neither did Brezhnev, Kosygin, or Pol Pot.
Pat Buchanan (who is not running this year, but has in the past) not only believes we're all going to hell, he's made it clear he wants us to play a second class role in this world as well.
As do some of our enemies who are Christian and some who are secularists.
Good point.
Really? They were fleeing because they couldn't stand people *talking* about what why God was letting some people kill Jews. And here I was imagining they were fleeing people who were *actually* killing Jews. Silly me.
For the same reasons, you can draw a strong inference that Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden are opposed to abortion rights.
So Rev. Wright was just a "guest speaker" at Trinity United Church of Christ? I was under the impression that he had a slightly more prominent position as a spokesman *for* the church, rather than just speaking *at* the church. Maybe I was wrong.
Is there any other reason remotely plausible?
I think Sarah Palin, being a former tv sports reporter, knows that FDR did not regularly go on TV for his talks. But Joe Biden thinks he did.
Has Palin said anything as stupid as opposing coal while in coal country? Biden did.
There is zero evidence that Biden is smarter than Palin. He may have learned some more policy in 36 years in the senate but that is it.
Hypothesis: The prevalence of Sarcastros on message boards is positively correlated with the prevalence of strained allegations of unfairness. Discuss amongst yourselves.
I went to a Catholic church for many years. I didn't agree with much of what the priests had to say, although I listened to them. I also had no idea what they said when I wasn't there, so it would be hard for me to "speak out" against something said that may have been inflammatory.
That is why I see a double-standard, although I agree with you that there is a difference between a guest preacher and the main preacher of a church. Presumably, if you disagree strongly enough with the main preacher, on topics that are important to you, you will eventually go to another church. With a guest preacher, I guess you could walk out of the service if the sermon was highly offensive. Many people wouldn't do that because they would not to want to appear rude.
IOW, the situations are different, but they should be judged the same way.
He was raised a Muslim, his father's a Muslim and the Muslim world doesn't seem to think he is an apostate. It doesn't surprise me at all that 10% of voters think he is still a Muslim. As far as I am concerned it's still an open question.
Palin left her AoG church in 2002. Oprah left Wright's church in the late 90's for similar reasons. Obama never got around to it until forced out by bad pub.
Of course, everyone knows that no Republican would be for helping people and lifting them up and caring about people who are sick and all those things...
If Obama's elected, it's the Jews' fault.
If Obama's not elected, it's the Jews' fault.
Orin will point out that kosher means different things to different people and that CJ and RJ have different standards. Please be gentle, Orin. I am taking that fact into account. I don't know of anyone who claims that shellfish, cheeseburgers, nevelah or Ruben sandwiches qualify as kosher.
Gee, with every Presidential candidate under the microscope by varius media, friend and foe alike, you'd think by now we would have enough information to make an informed decision.
By the way, McCain is an atheist. Ot at least, it's an open question as far as I'm concerned.
Disjointed words making a semi-sophisticated analytic point.
Now, here's an excerpt from part 2 of Palin's interview w/Couric:
COURIC: You've cited Alaska's proximity to Russia as part of your foreign policy experience. What did you mean by that?
PALIN: That Alaska has a very narrow maritime border between a foreign country, Russia, and on our other side, the land-- boundary that we have with-- Canada. It-- it's funny that a comment like that was-- kind of made to-- cari-- I don't know, you know? Reporters--
COURIC: Mock?
PALIN: Yeah, mocked, I guess that's the word, yeah.
COURIC: Explain to me why that enhances your foreign policy credentials.
PALIN: Well, it certainly does because our-- our next door neighbors are foreign countries. They're in the state that I am the executive of. And there in Russia--
COURIC: Have you ever been involved with any negotiations, for example, with the Russians?
PALIN: We have trade missions back and forth. We-- we do-- it's very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia as Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where-- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is-- from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to-- to our state.
When Putin rears his head and comes into USA air space, what state does he fly over first? Alaska! It's Alaska!
(Or maybe it will be the Jews' fault if they give him more than 50% and he is elected. Now, I'm not sure. Maybe the safe bet is that it will be the Jews' fault either way. After November 4, I'll take you through the reasoning.)
If it's reasonable for Muslims to suspect Obama's a Muslim, why is it unreasonable for anybody else? Unlike McCain who has no positive signs of being an atheist, Obama qualifies on several counts as a Muslim. Whether he thinks he is a Muslim is a separate issue.
One question might be whether Muslim law of whatever school thinks he's a Muslim who happens to be misguided, and possibly apostate.
Apparently, being a Muslim is not necessarily restricted to current belief. And if that is true, there may be a set of circumstances--which a number of Muslims see as having been satisfied--that means you're in and you can't check out no matter what.
Indeed, thankfully we have the media to do such great investigating and share the truth with us. Since you seem to be enlightened maybe you can help me.
Specifically can you tell me why you think he was never a Muslim, and then if you agree he was, why he is now not considered apostate? It’s a very simple question that should have a simple answer.
His “Christian” side seems to me to have really been a black collectivist race baiting haven that he joined for pure political reasons. His father and father figures have all been Muslim or anti-American and his maternal figures are in disfavor with him. He said the most beautiful sound he has ever heard was the sound of Muslim prayer call in the morning. We know Muslims are allowed to lie about anything to Infidels and we see Muslims of the world not offended by his apostate status. This seems to me to indicate that as far as most Muslims are concerned THEY think he is still a Muslim (or at least they aren’t sure and hope he is). How EXACTLY are we to determine that he does not consider himself a Muslim on the inside?
Perhaps I just have a blind spot and you will do me the favor of helping me see but right now, yes it seems to be an open question that is not easy to resolve. For what it’s worth I am not voting against him because he might be a cloaked Muslim but because I am opposed philosophically to almost everything he is about. I just don’t see how anyone can conclusively say he isn’t a Muslim and therefore I understand why a poll would show a percentage of people who think he is.
"That's weird, you know? Finally we have a man in--that's going to be Goldwater's last step: gets in, gets before the T.V. cameras for the acceptance speech, and he rips off the mask and you see the big nose and the semitic look and the spittle coming out--and he says:
"'Yahahahahahahaaaa! We'll burn all the churches!'"
______
Except, of course, Lenny was joking that Goldwater was really a secret Jew because of Goldwater's paternal heritage. Richard and SenatorX, on the other hand, are indulging in tin-foil hat speculations...Like I'm supposed to be convinced that because some Muslims believe the garbage some Americans believe, it must be true. Give up that ghost, guys.
You are a bigoted piece of trash. How do I know? Well, how EXACTLY are we to determine that you are not? What else explains the paranoia? The proposition that a child would inculcate a secret belief system and hold it for life is beyond absurd, and that you feel the need to be reassured says a lot about your fears and nothing whatsoever about Obama.
PS Palin is flat out stupid, watch the Couric interview, that's all the evidence anyone should ever need to see. Dumb as a sack of hammers.
"God wants us, wants to penetrate in our society, is in the economic area," Muthee says. "The Bible says that the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous. It's high time that we have top Christian businessmen, businesswomen, bankers, you know, who are men and women of integrity, running the economics of our nations. That's what we are waiting for. That's part and parcel of transformation. If you look at the -- you know -- if you look at the Israelites, that's how they work. And that's how they are, even today."
I do actually think he didn't mean anything anti-Semitic by it and was comparing "Israelites" favorably (though most wealthy Jews I know aren't at all religious). Or I'd like to think that. However, I don't at all agree with his opinion here. As a firm believer in the separation of Church and State, I'd hate to elect a politician who believes this and given many examples of her religious fanaticism, I think she really might. That it could potentially influence policy decisions against Jews (and other religious minorities) is worth some concern.
I think you should do it in person. Just to make sure they get the full flavor of your contempt. Only way to do it.
I should point out, too, Mitchell, that you're coming close to getting me banned for bad words. You know effing well that I was not saying Obama was a Muslim. Yet you pretend I did, and on that faulty basis, call me names. You a lawyer, btw? That is, I should point out, a failed technique. 'cause what I wrote is right there.
What I did say, so that you know you didn't get away with anything, is that if a bunch of Muslims think Obama is a Muslim, and if Obama has satisfied certain criteria in their minds and thus remains a Muslim in their minds, it's not all that odd that others might wonder, too. It's not as if he's being suspected of being something for which there is no evidence, however faulty, at all at all. Like an ex Navy Seal, for example.
Glad I got that off my chest, Mitchell, and simultaneously explained to you that you're no better than you ought to be, and got busted on it, as well. Aaaah.
Still waiting for an answer to my simple question.
You got anything else to do for a couple of days? Probably be a good idea to cook up something. To pass the time, you know.
You mean they use the same rulebook as John McCain? It's pretty striking that proof can be easily found without even looking after 2/4/08, and without looking outside an article in "The Conservative Voice" called "McCain, Politically Opportunistic Liar." But lots of other proof is readily available, like what I documented here and here.
Maybe when we put together all the circumstantial evidence we have to conclude that McCain is a secret Muslim. Because that would explain all the lying, right?
She might. What do Muslims think?
That was the question. Leave the misdirection to a carny illusionist. They do it better.
The number of reputable Muslims I know who have stated that Palin is a Muslim is exactly equal to the number of reputable Muslims I know who have stated that Obama is a Muslim. So I can't be sure that Palin is a Muslim. Or McCain, for that matter. However, I have sufficient evidence to know McCain and Palin are both liars.
I notice you have nothing to say about that evidence, although you seem quite interested in Obama's religion. This tells us something about your priorities.
That's basically where I am at Yankev. In the long list of things I worry about Obama him being a secret Muslim is way down at the bottom. How Muslims of the world view him as non apostate is very interesting though considering how heinous a crime they think that is. If he wins the election (and I think he probably will)I think there might be a fallout at some point between him and the Muslim world. It's one thing to support the anti-Bush when he is running to take the reigns and it's another to support him once you realize he really isn't going to do you any favors once he gets in power. The apostate meme could come out in full force at some point in his presidency.
Richard, it looks like I better go back to my cooking!
So anybody who says Obama is a Muslim is not reputable.
I'm afraid you've pissed off about ten percent of the world's Muslims.
Good luck with that.
One of many things you haven't done is cite any reputable Muslim authority who states that Obama is a Muslim. You also haven't explained why I should care about such a statement, even if one existed.
You also haven't explained, and can't explain, how anything I've said is offensive to Muslims. Or why you're in a position to be considered an authority on that subject.
I guess this blog has more readers than I thought. Or maybe there's just something special about this thread.
Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that you're "afraid." Take some deep breaths.