The Volokh Conspiracy

Stock Market Up on Tuesday.

As I pointed out yesterday, usually the stock market is up following a down day in the SP 500 of 5.5% or more--on average up 3.5% on the first day and 1.6% on the second day after such a big down day.

At 2:25pm ET, the SP 500 is up 4.6%, the Dow is up 3.9%, and the NASDAQ is up 4.4%.

As to the bailout plan, I was modestly in favor of it until I read Dodd's proposal, which turned me against his version of the bill. But by Monday, every particular provision that I objected to (including the relatively obscure ones) were removed from the bill. After that, I went back to being modestly in favor of it. But I still am not confident of my view on whether on balance it is a good thing or a bad thing.

A.S.:
If the stock market is up, then it's time for Prof Posner to change his mind about whether the bailout is worth it!
9.30.2008 2:44pm
Rodger Lodger (mail):
Guess you all know that it has to go up a higher percentage than it went down to get back to even.
9.30.2008 3:09pm
Spitzer:
What's striking is how the establishment has purposely created deep anxiety - panic, even - all for the sake of the bailout bill. Frankly, it looks more and more like extortion to me - almost like the establishment wants the market to panic to provide the necessary cover for the bailout bill. In fact, it sounds more and more like the feds have been sowing FUD as much as possible.

Why? Why push for a stop-gap solution when the real problem (centered on Freddie/Fannie) has not been fixed? If Freddie/Fannie can keep polluting the MBS stream with bad loans due to negligent or reckless oversight, how will the bailout help anyone?

What's especially interesting to me is that the fallout is different from prior such crashes, although the feds aren't really talking about that. You see, prior such crashes hit the commercial banks, and the resulting liquidity crunch among them caused lending to consumers and small businesses to cease, leading to recessions. But this is different - the liquidity crunch will directly affect only the i-banks and large institutional investors. That may lead to a dry spell for venture capital (caveat: it won't affect the angels, hedge funds, and v-cap funds as much, so there will still be a lot of lending to startups), and IPOs are in for a bad time, and the institutional investors will get slammed (so some pension funds like CALPERs may get hammered). But that effect is more than one-step removed from consumers and small businesses. Indeed, large corps will still have a bond market to access loans, and mortgage money will still be out there for qualified buyers.

Indeed, the biggest threat would be that the entire secondary mortgage market would essentially melt down - and we would return to the early 1990s (relying on commercial banks for mortgages, banks who intend to hold the mortgages long-term, would result in slightly higher interest rates and sterner credit checks and, at absolutely worst, the sort of local liquidity problems that we last saw in the mortgage markets in the late 1970s).

In short, the feds/establishment has been pushing this bailout like crazy, but I continue to harbor serious doubts as to whether the crunch will affect the commercial banks (and, thereby, the wider economy) too critically. I see the fallout hammering certain large investors and i-banks (most of whom have now sought the shelter of the commercial banks, so they'll survive in a smaller form).
9.30.2008 3:20pm
Don de Drain:
I share your ambivalence about the bailout bill. The key factor is the manner in which the program is administered. There is a tremendous opportunity for favoritism, cronyism, and all sorts of bad conduct which could fall short of criminal activity. I don't have a good sense of how transparent the administration of the bailout program would be under the version of the bailout bill voted down yesterday. Transparency is the key, along with accountability. Without transparency there can be no accountability. And without accountability, those administering the program can do whatever the heck they want with the bailout money. they can save their political friends and abandon their political enemies. they can save their college buddies and abandon those they do not know well. If that kind of stuff happens, the cure may be worse that the disease in the long run.

So the question in my mind is, regardless of the $$ amounts involved and other such details, how do you build in sufficient transparency and accountability to make it worth the risk of supporting the bailout?
9.30.2008 3:32pm
Syd Henderson (mail):
So I guess it goes up a little tomorrow and a little down on Thursday?
9.30.2008 3:50pm
ejo:
poof, hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth are created.
9.30.2008 3:57pm
Allan (mail):
While up and down movements on ordinary days might follow these patterns, I'm suspicious that a quarter-end (such as today) might evoke a different pattern, which would produce an up day today and a sell-off tomorrow. In volatile times, too, one doesn't know when the next pulse is coming.
9.30.2008 4:25pm
Francis Marion (mail):
Today's rally was nothing more than a classic "sucker's rally." It is the end of the month and end of the third quarter. Consequently, you have desparate mutual fund managers trying to recoup some of their losses today so there will be fewer phone calls to the mutual funds' customer service lines from angry clients after they receive their statements in a couple of weeks.
9.30.2008 4:45pm
Look at the data:

Consequently, you have desparate mutual fund managers trying to recoup some of their losses today


How, exactly, are they "trying" to do so by buying more equity? Unless mutual fund managers have the power to manipulate stock prices (in which case, they would be wildly rich already since they could buy low, manipulate the price high, sell, and repeat), buying more stock just moves balances from the "cash" ledger to the "stock" ledger.

Second, look up the "January effect" -- once a few smart hedge fund managers figured out that market inflows from institutional investors increase in January, they managed to completely arbitrage out any price effect so that there is no perceptible price change even as institutions are buying more. Methinks they would have long since figured out a "last day of the quarter" strategy.
9.30.2008 5:02pm
PersonFromPorlock:
One of the problems I have with the bailout bill is the way it's being pushed: I keep flashing on Professor Harold Hill's "Ya got trouble, my friend, right here, I say, trouble right here in River City."

Are we getting good advice or are Big Gov and Big Finance just pushing the mark?

Suppose the market goes up modestly or just stalls where it is. Is there anything in that to justify the Doomsday scenarios we've been treated to? Or to require a bailout?
9.30.2008 5:11pm
titus32:
If the stock market is up, then it's time for Prof Posner to change his mind about whether the bailout is worth it!

Not if, as reported, the rise in the market is attributable to investors' hopes of an eventual bailout.
9.30.2008 5:26pm
Francis Marion (mail):

How, exactly, are they "trying" to do so by buying more equity? Unless mutual fund managers have the power to manipulate stock prices (in which case, they would be wildly rich already since they could buy low, manipulate the price high, sell, and repeat), buying more stock just moves balances from the "cash" ledger to the "stock" ledger.


It's quite easy and there is no manipulation involved. You clearly have never traded a single stock/etf in your life, have you?

After yesterday's massive selloff, a fund manager (or anyone else for that matter) simply enters limit buy orders for the closing price or just above it for whatever stocks/etfs he wants to buy. Shortly after the market opens, the limit buy orders are quickly fulfilled. Immediately afterward, the fund manager then enters limit sell orders for the same stocks/etfs he just purchased at a price level that is now a few dollars higher than what he just purchased them for. The fund manager then sits back and monitors his stocks/etfs, maybe surfs Volokh Conspiracy a little bit, reads Black's Law Dictionary, or whatever. If the fund manager has set the price for the limit sell orders too high, he can modify the orders at a lower price but still high enough to make a profit on the entire trade.

For example, I have been monitoring Vanguard Emerging Market ETF (VWO) and Vanguard REITS ETF (VNQ) for quite some time since they had been flirting with their all time lows for a few weeks. Yesterday was a godsend because VWO hit a record low and VNQ came close to hitting its record low. So, when I learned this morning that the futures were pointing toward a higher opening at market open, I set limit buy orders for X number of shares for both VWO and VNQ at a price pennies above yesterday's closing prices. If VWO or VNQ had declined further today, it would have been no big deal because my limit buy orders would not be triggered unless they increased. However, VWO and VNQ did increase upon market open and my limit buy orders were fulfilled.

I then set limit sell orders for both VNQ and VWO at yesterday's closing price. By mid afternoon, VNQ hit yesterday's closing price triggering my limit sell order thereby giving me a profit of about $2.50 per share. (VNQ subsequently increased $1.25 per share so I could have made a larger profit per share but why be greedy. Pigs get greedy while hogs get slaughtered.)

By 3:55 today, VWO had not yet hit yesterday's closing price so I simply modified my limit sell order and turned it into a market order that is processed immediately. Thus, I made a couple of dollars per share on VWO today as well.

Now, a couple of dollars may not seem like much, but it does when one is trading a large volume of stocks/etfs. Happy trading, everyone!
9.30.2008 5:28pm
ejo:
wow, sounds like you have a foolproof system for gaming the market that no one has ever thought of. it should be impossible to lose money with this system.
9.30.2008 5:36pm
Francis Marion (mail):

wow, sounds like you have a foolproof system for gaming the market that no one has ever thought of. it should be impossible to lose money with this system.


There is no such thing as a foolproof system. If a hijacker had commandeered a plane and flown it into the Sears Tower at 11:00 a.m. after I had purchased VWO and VNQ, well then I likely would have suffered losses today.

However, there is no dispute that yesterday's selloff was incredible. Furthermore, the futures this morning were pointing upward. Moreover, VWO had hit a record low and VNQ was near hitting its record low. Record lows in a Bear Market and 52 week lows in a Bull Market are targets of opportunity for a trader who is willing to take on risk.
9.30.2008 5:57pm
byomtov (mail):
a fund manager (or anyone else for that matter) simply enters limit buy orders for the closing price or just above it for whatever stocks/etfs he wants to buy. Shortly after the market opens, the limit buy orders are quickly fulfilled. Immediately afterward, the fund manager then enters limit sell orders for the same stocks/etfs he just purchased at a price level that is now a few dollars higher than what he just purchased them for. The fund manager then sits back and monitors his stocks/etfs, maybe surfs Volokh Conspiracy a little bit, reads Black's Law Dictionary, or whatever. If the fund manager has set the price for the limit sell orders too high, he can modify the orders at a lower price but still high enough to make a profit on the entire trade.

So this system makes money if the stocks you buy go up? I gotta say, that's a unique feature.

when I learned this morning that the futures were pointing toward a higher opening at market open, I set limit buy orders for X number of shares for both VWO and VNQ at a price pennies above yesterday's closing prices....

I then set limit sell orders for both VNQ and VWO at yesterday's closing price. By mid afternoon, VNQ hit yesterday's closing price triggering my limit sell order thereby giving me a profit of about $2.50 per share.


So you set the limit sell price below the limit buy price. Both orders were filled, yet you made a profit? How does that work?
9.30.2008 7:15pm
js5 (mail):
hi Jim. It's Rosh Hashanah. Congress is taking the day off. Wait till congress resumes. the market will be at the will of congress.
9.30.2008 9:09pm
ChrisIowa (mail):

I then set limit sell orders for both VNQ and VWO at yesterday's closing price. By mid afternoon, VNQ hit yesterday's closing price triggering my limit sell order thereby giving me a profit of about $2.50 per share. (VNQ subsequently increased $1.25 per share so I could have made a larger profit per share but why be greedy. Pigs get greedy while hogs get slaughtered.)


I think you meant to say you set a limit sell order at yesterday's opening price or am I missing something? Since vwo was above yesterday's closing price all day and a limit order at that price would have been immediately executed.
9.30.2008 10:13pm

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