The Legislative Role of the VP:

An informative essay by Josh Chafetz on the Constitutonal role of the VP:

But the thing is, our Founding Fathers created a system in which the vice presidency went to the Electoral College runner-up. And even though they didn't anticipate the role that political parties would come to play, they knew enough to understand that this meant that the president and vice president might well be rivals. As a result, the Constitution gives the vice president no executive role at all, other than waiting for the president to die, resign, or become incapacitated. Indeed, John Adams, our first vice president, wrote to Abigail that "[m]y country has in its wisdom contrived for me the most insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived or his imagination conceived." The Founders didn't think that the executive role of the vice president would be flexible; they thought it would be almost non-existent.

Biden, however, kept mangling away. "The Constitution is explicit," he said. "The only authority the vice president has from the legislative standpoint is the vote, only when there is a tie vote." Well, not exactly. The vice president is always the president of the Senate--indeed, since the vice president was expected to have so little an executive role, presiding over the Senate was meant to be his day job. As Roger Sherman put it at the Philadelphia Convention, "If the vice president were not to be President of the Senate, he would be without employment." Biden was therefore right to note that the vice president's Senate vote is limited to breaking ties, but wrong to think that this constituted the entirety of his responsibilities with respect to Congress.

This was also a funny line: "Skipping over Biden's assertion that Cheney 'has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history' (a bit of hyperbole is forgivable in the midst of a campaign, but is Cheney really worse than, say, the dueling and possibly treasonous Burr?)...."

Eric Muller (www):
"but is Cheney really worse than, say, the dueling and possibly treasonous Burr?"

Yes. Burr had the decency to leave after a single term.
10.4.2008 2:24pm
Syd Henderson (mail):
Which one would you be (or have been) safer hunting with?
10.4.2008 2:25pm
SMatthewStolte (mail):
I think Cheney probably had in mind the fact that most VPs prior to Gore haven't really had much of a role in the White House. I'd bet he figured it was safe to say on the basis that he only needed to compare the last few VPs.
10.4.2008 2:33pm
Johnny Canuck (mail):
On one of the prior threads Bill Poser made a point with respect to understanding what Biden meant by his statement in the debate:

I think that your interpretation of this [statement] as claiming that Article I deals with the Executive Branch is incorrect. The problem is that the first sentence is ungrammatical and presents problems of interpretation. In particular, it isn't clear what the antecedent of "that" is in "that's the Executive Branch". However, there's no good reason to take it to be "Article I". At least as plausible, and I think clearly what Biden meant in light of the clarification provided by "He works in the Executive Branch", is that the antecedent of "that" is "role". In other words, in a somewhat disjointed way, Biden is combining two thoughts: (a) that the only place in which the VPs role is defined is in Article I, which is true; and (b) that the VP is a member of the Executive Branch, which is also true. Granted, it is the kind of somewhat garbled statement that almost everyone occasionally makes in extemporaneous speech, but I think that it is wrong-headed to take it to indicate that Biden doesn't know that Article I deals with the Legislative Branch.

Biden from the transcript:

... he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.
10.4.2008 2:42pm
EIDE_Interface (mail):
Biden is a moron. There I simplified it for you.
10.4.2008 2:56pm
Chico's Bail Bonds (mail):
So now we have to follow the original intent behind a provision of the constitution that has been superceded due to diastrous results , ie vp as runner up president. Which theory of interpretation is that?
10.4.2008 2:59pm
Dan M.:
Well, perhaps when using the Constitution to justify your interpretation of the role of the VP, you might want to know what the Constitution says.
10.4.2008 3:14pm
Paul Allen:
The President of the Senate has other powers under the senate rules. These are considered extraordinary powers though. However much power the position has really depends on the Senate rules.

There is no constitutional reason that the Senate could not follow the style of house and imbue the presiding officer will control of the agenda for instance. The one interesting question is whether the Senate could create a "Speaker of the Senate" independent from the vice-president. I would expect this is constitutionally suspect but know of no discussion of it.
10.4.2008 3:36pm
MLS:
The sole substantive power granted the position of VP is an Article 1 power. All subsequent references are generally in line with addressing presidential succession or appointment of a new VP should the current VP assume the role of President.

BTW, I would love to have a job where my main responsibility is to wake up each morning and ask if the President is OK.
10.4.2008 3:39pm
r.friedman (mail):
Why is the original constitution even relevant? In the very first election after the non-partisan Washington left the scene, the undesirable consequences of its electoral system were recognized and the process amended to reflect the reality of party politics.

Article I does say that the Senate shall elect a president pro tem to serve in the absence of the vice president, in almost identical words as it says that the House shall elect a Speaker. So it makes sense that each house would be responsive to its elected leader even though someone else was its leader ex officio. The last time anyone said that an ex-senator vice president would retain influence in the Senate was in the Lyndon Johnson era, and he quickly learned that his once great power had passed on.

Cheney really is worse than Burr. He organized a government within the government, reaching into the Justice and Defense Departments, bypassing normal channels within those departments and excluding the designated authorities such as the NSC and JAGs, with horrible consequences for civil liberties at home and the battlefields abroad. We would have been much better off had Colin Powell challenged Cheney to a duel; Cheney would have hit the second, but Powell would have put him away.
10.4.2008 3:40pm
Paul Allen:
Re generally: I recall TNR many months ago discussing Hillary Clinton as VP. Their argument was about the powerlessness of the position--hung with the sins of the administration but without having had the power to act.

There has also been quite a bit of commentary as to whether it was constitutionally permissible to grant Cheney authority over specific portfolios.

All of this was promptly forgotten it seems once Palin made the same argument. It reminds me of something from my days in student government back in college. Someone I knew was considering having himself up for a certain committee that I had been on. He asked me about it, and I told him that the committee was not very active. Well during his interview, he was asked whether he had time for the committee. He repeated some of what I said. Needless to say the selection committee was not very happy with his answer...
10.4.2008 3:46pm
Christopher Phelan (mail):
The left's hangup with Cheney is some kind of sickness. The Vice President has no official executive duties, but the President can have anyone he wants to work for him in exercising his executive duties, including the Vice-President. So Cheney has no power. Any decision of his is reviewable by Bush. He is simply an advisor. So what's next, a fascination with Rove? Oh wait. Nevermind.
10.4.2008 4:16pm
PC:
but is Cheney really worse than, say, the dueling and possibly treasonous Burr?

Hamilton didn't apologize to Burr after Hamilton was shot.
10.4.2008 4:37pm
Hutz:
What's missing from all of this is a bit of context.

As I recall, Cheney first invoked his legislative role to evade the requirements of an executive order dealing with National Archives oversight of the executive's classification of documents. The documents in question did not come to Cheney in his capacity as a member of the legislative branch. He functions as a member of the executive, and that's why he had the documents and why he was able to make decisions about whether they should be classified.

If he were a champion of extending the same level of access and control to other members of the legislative branch, perhaps we would have had a real debate about the VP's role a year or two ago.

This is not to defend the accuracy of Biden's statements. But, when one hears a Republican VP candidate emphasize her legislative role after already describing the active role she will play in the executive branch, it is difficult not to think of Cheney and his strained relationship with the rule of law.
10.4.2008 4:52pm
Eric Muller (www):
PC wins the thread.
10.4.2008 5:07pm
Asher (mail):
Treason's a problem, but if all Cheney did wrong was duel, we'd be a lot better off.
10.4.2008 5:15pm
James B (mail):
How about the treasonous John C Breckenridge, Confederate General and Secretary of War?
10.4.2008 5:43pm
Christopher Cooke (mail):
I mentioned this last time, but Burr was acquitted of treason and of all crimes with which he was charged. Why hold Burr out as a "dangerous" VP? He was only dangerous if you were Alexander Hamilton. He also served his country admirably during the revolutionary war.
10.4.2008 6:29pm
Passerby:
Why mention Burr as dangerous? Probably b/c Todd is a shameless cheerleader for Palin (see the majority of his recent posts), so he has to critique what Biden says, and ignore any of the idiocracy that escapes the mouth of Palin.

btw ~ do you really think the extreme secrecy of our executive branch is not dangerous?
10.4.2008 7:43pm
Sid Finkel (mail):
Well, lets see

Burr did not help start a war based on false intelligence. He did not assert that he and the President did not have to obey the law, he did not hold secret meetings with the oil industry to set energy policy, and he did not abandon basic conservative principles to help concentrate extraordinary and in many case unconstitutional powers to the executive branch. Ok, Chaney only wounded a guy, while Burr killed Hamilton, so I guess that's one for Chaney.
10.4.2008 8:46pm
jrose:
If we accept Chaftez analysis, then hasn't Cheney (among other VPs) violated the constitution when exercising executive authority?
10.4.2008 9:11pm
Stu Gittelman:
I'm surprised that all the sidebar discussion about 'probably the most dangerous vice president in American history' hasn't turned at all to Henry A. Wallace.

FDR, with no shortage of patience for "Uncle Joe" Stalin himself, dumped Vice President Wallace from the Democratic ticket in 1944 - in part based on his disturbingly Russophilic viewpoint and pinkish opinions on other issues. Those concerns turned out to be justified as Wallace's positions became clearer during his run for the White House in 1948 on the Progressive ticket. That was a watershed election for the Democrats. Given the choice between containing Communism and appeasing it, they chose the former. One can only imagine the vastly different landscape of the early post-war years and the ripple effects of them later in time had the nation been led by President Wallace and not the more resolute President Truman after 1945. Give FDR credit for some prescience.

Incidentally, Wallace, for his part, was shocked back into reality by Soviet sponsored aggression in Korea, declared himself anti-Communist, published an apologia, supported Eisenhower's candidacy in 1952 and even Richard Nixon's in 1960!
10.4.2008 11:14pm
Hoosier:
I try to be the soul of moderation on these boards. But FFS PEOPLE: It is foolish to call Cheney "the most dangerous vice presedent" in US history.

That title belongs to Burr (Though see the next paragraph.).

John Calhoun seems to have been insane by the time he was veep. At least that's the most generous interpretation I can come up with for his flirtations with treason. So let's say he's worst veep number 1.5.

Charles Dawes might be number two on that list. (From my native Chicago, and in fact my birthplace--Evanston.) And perhaps Schuyler Colfax is up there, too. (From my longtime home of South Bend, IN. I'm beginning to sense a trend.)

Spiro Agnew? A distant third. (HA! I've never lived in Maryland. And I'm not Greek. And not called Ted.) Tied with Henry Wallace, who never noticed how popular he was with the American Muscovites.

"Miss Incongeniality Award" to John Nance Garner, who sought to do as much damage to his president's policies as did Dawes. But he was thwarted by a political genius, and a world war.
10.5.2008 6:57pm
Duncan C. Coffee (mail):
"And even though they didn't anticipate the role that political parties would come to play, they knew enough to understand that this meant that the president and vice president might well be rivals."

Okay, this isn't technically untrue, but I believe it is misleading. The development of political parties made it less likely for the President and VP to be ideological opponents under the original system. The big pre-12th Amendment mishaps were:
(a) Adams and Jefferson elected together, even though they were ideological opponents (before the formal party system) and
(b) Jefferson and Barr (ideological allies) getting a tie vote, even though everyone knew Jefferson was leading the ticket. All the Democratic-Republican electors were loyal to both, thus the tie vote. (The Federalists saw this coming and made sure to have one of their electors vote for Adams &Jay instead of Adams &Pinckney.)

It's tie votes, not "Pres and Veep can't stand each other", that were the problem with the two-votes-for-President clause in the original system.

Next, I'd like to ditto what Paul Allen said. Good points, and there are good political arguments for executive control of legislative agendas (although of course there are good arguments against same). The Senate's President pro tem isn't much like a Speaker because of the tradition giving the former office to the most senior (not necessarily most influential or most spritely!) Senator of the majority party.

Evidence for close Presidential-Senatorial cooperation: "advice and consent". They must have meant something by "advice", right? What's to prevent them from rejecting any appointee they haven't hand-picked? And with only 26 people in the original Senate, they're not much bigger than a lot of cabinets, and none of them were directly elected. So, rigid separation of executive and legislature are a matter of convention, not Constitutional marching orders.

And finally, I must respond to:
"The Vice President has no official executive duties, but the President can have anyone he wants to work for him in exercising his executive duties, including the Vice-President."

"Official" surely doesn't equal Constitutional? The Vice President sits on both the National Security Council and the Smithsonian board by statute ... seems official enough to me. I do think Cheney draws too much attention, and I'm wholly in favor of the VP being up to speed on national security at all times.

In fact, I think presiding over the Senate and sitting on the tiny (by Washington standards) and important NSC are quite enough responsibility. It's really important for the President to hear the opinion of someone he can't fire when it comes to National Security.
10.7.2008 8:42pm
Loki (mail):
@EIDE_INTERFACE:

You comment, "Biden is a moron."
But you neglected to mention that he's also been caught once at plagiarism. The difference is that no one has a choice about being born a moron.
10.8.2008 7:21pm