Sen. Stevens - Guilty:

A jury has found Alaska Senator Ted Stevens guilty on seven felony counts of making false statements about gifts he received. The deliberations took five hours. Despite the verdict, Senator Stevens insisted he is innocent, decried alleged prosecutorial misconduct, and announced that he will appeal the verdict. In the meantime, he is still running for reelection to his Senate seat. In my view, Stevens should have withdrawn from the race months ago, but it's not too late. When even the RedState guys are endorsing your Democratic opponent, it's time to throw in the towel.

Related Posts (on one page):

  1. Can Sen. Stevens Vote for Himself?
  2. Sen. Stevens - Guilty:
UVA 1L (mail):

but it's not too late.


I think you meant "it's now too late," since the ballot registration deadline was something like 5 - 6 weeks ago and now Stevens is stuck on it.

It must be too late now - it's almost 8:15...
10.27.2008 9:22pm
Christopher Cooke (mail):
He shouldn't have testified. His lawyers could have played up the "I am old and confused" bit and blamed his wife/Allen and the government. This time, the 5th Amendment was his best friend, but Stevens was too vain to realize it.
10.27.2008 9:29pm
Kevin Murphy:
Clearly Stevens cannot serve -- if nothing else the Democrats will delight in his ouster after a grand show trial.

But Stevens should stay on the ballot and say he will resign after the election. This gives Sarah Palin an appointment should he win. So the ballot becomes Democrat vs Republican-to-be-named-later.
10.27.2008 9:30pm
J. Aldridge:
Sounds like he may have a great appeals argument? The star witness said Stevens would had paid if he had been billed?
10.27.2008 9:38pm
Syd Henderson (mail):
Kevin Murphy: Sarah Palin doesn't get to appoint a replacement. They'd have to have a special election. This law was passed when Frank Murkowski appointed his daughter to the Senate.
10.27.2008 9:39pm
Lucius Cornelius:
I agree with you Kevin. Though I think he should resign now and allow Governor Palin to appoint a replacement. That would add to the perception that even though Stevens' name is still on the ballot, that he will not be assuming office again in January.

This would be similar (though not identical) to the Carnahan versus Ashcroft race back in 2000 when Carnahan died before the election, but it was known that his wife would be appointed to fill his seat if the "dead guy won."

Of course, the state GOP could follow the Torricelli/Lautenburg approach, ignore state law, and appoint a replacement to the ticket. The New Jersey state supreme court embarrassed itself by ignoring state law and allowing Lautenberg to run.

But I think the GOP would do best to follow the law and let the chips fall where they will. I propose that Governor Palin name Stevens' primary opponent to fill the seat if it becomes vacant.
10.27.2008 9:40pm
Anon21:
But Stevens should stay on the ballot and say he will resign after the election. This gives Sarah Palin an appointment should he win. So the ballot becomes Democrat vs Republican-to-be-named-later.

That was sort of the strategy with Foley two years ago, but the optics just don't work. Even assuming you can communicate to voters that their choice is actually what you've stated, there is a certain revulsion in pulling the lever for a convicted felon, even symbolically. I don't think this strategy would succeed in holding the seat for the GOP. Also, if I'm not mistaken, the governor of Alaska is no longer vested with the power to appoint U.S. Senators. Instead, a special election would be held, and although the odds would certainly be better for the Republicans with a candidate other than Stevens on the ballot, I have to believe that the disgust with the state's Republican congressional delegation might spill over into a hypothetical special election. Although, maybe that would be counterbalanced by fear of a (by then elected) President Obama and expanded Democratic congressional majorities...

However, it appears to be a moot point. Stevens is quite narcissistic, and is continuing to maintain his innocence. I cannot believe that his GOP colleagues will be able to convince him to publicly commit to resigning his seat after the election, because he really has nothing to gain either way. He will defiantly remain on the ballot, and will go down to defeat. The GOP's last chance to save this seat was the ballot deadline six weeks ago, had they but known it.
10.27.2008 9:43pm
Nunzio:
Apparently the jury disregarded Colin Powell's testimony that Stevens was a man of integrity and has a sterling reputation.
10.27.2008 9:45pm
Lucius Cornelius:
I stand corrected. AS 15.40.410 gives the current law.

I did not realize that Alaska's law had changed. Still, best for Stevens to resign now and to announce that he will not serve if elected...allow the voters to have a choice for two candidates through a special election.
10.27.2008 9:46pm
EH (mail):
If only he had been convicted of a real crime.
10.27.2008 9:46pm
Christopher Cooke (mail):
"The star witness said Stevens would had paid if he had been billed?"

I don't remember that testimony and would be surprised if the Judge let it in. How could the witness (presumably his friend, Allen) know what was in Stevens' mind?

If I were to guess, and without knowing the transcript, I would think the appeal could be based on prosecutorial misconduct (a loser, but it came up during the trial) and probably some argument about the jury instructions (a tried and true appeal point).

If I were Stevens' attorneys, I would immediately hire a private investigator to interview the jurors, and Allen etc, to see if he or she finds anything useful (I am sure they are doing this already; his lawyers are very good). Maybe they could make same jury misconduct argument to save him from serving some jail time.
10.27.2008 9:47pm
John from Dallas:
"Sounds like he may have a great appeals argument? The star witness said Stevens would had paid if he had been billed?"

And how is this a defense? If Stevens knew he was getting something for nothing, he was required to disclose it regardless of whether he would have been willing to pay.
10.27.2008 9:48pm
Anon21:
If only he had been convicted of a real crime.

Hard to judge the thrust of your remarks, unless it's just partisan hackery. However, the obvious response is that he wasn't charged with corruption or bribery because his false statements on the Senate disclosure forms both obstructed the investigation into the corrupt dealings by obscuring the amounts involved and other information, and that the non-disclosure was just an easier case to make. Are you really prepared to make the argument either that U.S. Senators should not be required to disclose gifts and contributions, or that it should not be a federal crime to lie on the disclosure forms created for that purpose? Put a different way, if this was Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, or Barack Obama, would the false statements on the disclosure forms suddenly become a "real crime"?
10.27.2008 9:51pm
Hoosier:
"Sounds like he may have a great appeals argument? The star witness said Stevens would had paid if he had been billed?"

And how is this a defense? If Stevens knew he was getting something for nothing, he was required to disclose it regardless of whether he would have been willing to pay.


I think this is why Christopher Cook's comment above is rather convincing. He might have gotten some jurors who would understand that a befuddled old man can forget to take his pills pay his bills unless he is reminded. Especially if he has other important things to remember.
10.27.2008 10:02pm
Freddy Hill:
Kudos to Steven's jury of peers. When will Bill Jefferson have his day of reckoning?
10.27.2008 10:04pm
Hoosier:
Anon21:

Put a different way, if this was Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, or Barack Obama, would the false statements on the disclosure forms suddenly become a "real crime"?

Heavens no, and you know the answer. In that case, it would be a "distraction from what the people of this country really care about."
10.27.2008 10:05pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
From a strict constructionist standpoint, there are some problems with the charge.

Each house of Congress has authority to make rules for the conduct of its own members, and penalize with fines or removal, but no power to impose criminal penalties.

The statute seems to be about a species of fraud, tending to obstruct justice. It can be argued there is authority for that under U.S. Const. I:8:17, if the offense is committed on the territory of a federal enclave, such as DC, but if the form was signed outside such a territory, the court would lack territorial jurisdiction. So an essential element of proof would be that it had been committed on federal territory. See more on this here and here .
10.27.2008 10:19pm
EH (mail):
Put a different way, if this was Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, or Barack Obama, would the false statements on the disclosure forms suddenly become a "real crime"?

Yeah, look at Lewis Libby. I can't imagine Stevens won't get an insta-pardon.
10.27.2008 10:22pm
Anon21:
I can't imagine Stevens won't get an insta-pardon

I think you'd better start imagining. I think it would do more harm than good at this point. Possibly, possibly on Bush's way out the door, but certainly not before the election. I am very certain the McCain campaign and the RNC are doing everything they can to keep the President far from the headlines during this last week of the campaign.
10.27.2008 10:25pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
According to a TV news report, the evidence offered included a taped phone conversation between Stevens and the donor that admitted wrongdoing. Otherwise, there would be an issue of mens rea, unless we are regarding false statements on government forms to carry strict liability now.
10.27.2008 10:26pm
Oren:
Jon, I'm pretty sure the statute is made under the ever-expanding commerce clause than 8-17.
10.27.2008 10:27pm
Oren:
He'll be pardoned Nov 6th or so, no sooner. Luckily for him he's free pending sentencing.
10.27.2008 10:30pm
frankcross (mail):
My general rule of thumb is that if Brendan Sullivan can't get you off, you must be really guilty.
10.27.2008 10:34pm
BobVDV2 (mail):
Until I looked, by "the RedState guys" I thought you meant these guys (also found here). Now that would have been one heck of an endorsement.
10.27.2008 10:36pm
smitty1e:
"Cold Cash" Jefferson is up in December.
Justice for Stevens raises hope for justice elsewhere.
10.27.2008 10:41pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

Jon, I'm pretty sure the statute is made under the ever-expanding commerce clause than 8-17.

Of course, but I hold that is without merit, and presume most of the members of this forum agree -- at least as a matter of history and logic. The legal realists (or Orwellians) will of course argue that history and logic don't matter.
10.27.2008 10:41pm
GMUSOL05:

Otherwise, there would be an issue of mens rea, unless we are regarding false statements on government forms to carry strict liability now.


My recollection is that mens rea can be inferred in general intent crimes.
10.27.2008 10:43pm
Bill Poser (mail) (www):
I'm having trouble understanding the position that Stevens should have been convicted even if Allen had credibly testified that he thought that Stevens would have paid the full cost if he had been invoiced for it.I'm no fan of Stevens, but I can perfectly well believe that he would not know what the total cost ought to be or would not have been keeping close tabs on how much he had paid. If he was invoiced a reasonable chunk of the cost and paid those invoices, he could well not have realized that there was a substantial amount that he was not being invoiced for.
10.27.2008 10:47pm
Mahan Atma (mail):
"Each house of Congress has authority to make rules for the conduct of its own members, and penalize with fines or removal, but no power to impose criminal penalties."


Glancing at Art. 8 for about, oh, 30 seconds, suggests that the Necessary and Proper Clause is the obvious hook in this case.

I have a much bigger problem with false statements charges when it's a clear case of a perjury trap (the "exculpatory no" doctrine having been wiped out by Scalia and the other Republican justices).

But a learned Senator filling out a form, which additionally contains notice of the false statements penalty? Hard to feel sorry for someone then.
10.27.2008 10:53pm
Lucius Cornelius:
One thing, I would not want to be a Republican up for trial in DC. The typical juror there might find you guilty just as a matter of principle. A company I was working for (as general counsel) was sued for racial discrimination. Our litigation counsel said the case was weak. Sadly, the president of the company was a blonde woman with a heavy South Carolina accent. We were doomed.

Fortunately, the lead plaintiff was caught stealing from the company. "The litigation gods have smiled upon you," said our attorney.
10.27.2008 10:54pm
Mahan Atma (mail):
^^ I mean Section 8, not Article 8.
10.27.2008 10:55pm
Tatil:

Each house of Congress has authority to make rules for the conduct of its own members, and penalize with fines or removal, but no power to impose criminal penalties.

By the same logic, if I apply for a bank loan with fraudulent documents, no criminal charges should be filed against me.
10.27.2008 10:56pm
Roger Schlafly (www):
I think that exposing Stevens to the voters should have been punishment enough.
10.27.2008 11:00pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
GMUSOL05:

My recollection is that mens rea can be inferred in general intent crimes.

It can be inferred from evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, and I wasn't on the jury to get all the evidence, but it seems to have been that taped phone call that was critical, and I would like to examine it carefully to make sure Stevens was aware there was intentional fraud involved and not just laziness or negligence.

My standard of reasonable doubt is fairly high. If I am on a jury the prosecutor is going to have to prove every point, and not neglect anything needed for a complete case. In particular, he is going to have to prove the authority for the charge, with an unbroken chain of derivation back to the applicable constitution. From observing many trials I fear that most prosecutors (and defense counsels) don't even know how to do that.
10.27.2008 11:02pm
Mahan Atma (mail):
"In particular, he is going to have to prove the authority for the charge, with an unbroken chain of derivation back to the applicable constitution. From observing many trials I fear that most prosecutors (and defense counsels) don't even know how to do that."


No judge will allow you to argue the constitutionality of the law to the jury. The court decides the constitutionality of the law, not the jury.
10.27.2008 11:07pm
Oren:
Jon, whether or not you (or any fraction of us on the forum) agree with accepted constitutional doctrine, it is what it is. Eugene wrote a very interesting response to J Alridge's persistent refusal to discuss 1A doctrine, as it exists, on its own terms

J. Aldridge: We know, we know, you think the Free Speech Clause should be interpreted according to its original meaning (and you also have a very firm but not particularly well-defended view of what that original meaning was). Your posts are often pretty opaque, but they're clear enough on that.

Can we just stipulate that this is your view, and skip the obligatory comment to that effect -- especially given that it's of very limited practical utility in discussing modern free speech law as it actually is? If you actually have some interesting comments or evidence on original meaning that we haven't heard from you before, that's a different matter. But at this point, your comments on the subject are pretty much a broken record, playing a tune that's not terribly practically to understanding or resolving current free speech controversies.

And to answer your question as to "why not," I take it the answer is "because the Maine Supreme Court believes itself to be bound by that modern free speech law, and in particular by U.S. Supreme Court precedents establishing that law" -- a pretty familiar position for courts to take in the U.S., and one that's unlikely to change any time soon.


So Jon, in that same vein, I propose to you that we stipulate that you disagree with Wickard v. Filburn and all the unholy progeny thereof. We can even stipulate that you believe the jury ought to be entitled to rule, de novo, on settled legal principles. Those positions are reasonable. What they are not, however, is relevant.
10.27.2008 11:21pm
Oren:
Of course s/Free Speech/Commerce Clause/ as appropriate.

I should have completed my last sentence a bit more: What they are not, however, is relevant to the instant case in which no challenge has been made to Congressional authority to pass the law, nor has the defendant attempted to instruct the jury otherwise.

Incidentally, Stevens voted for the ethics reform -- shouldn't he be estopped from asserting that it is unconstitutional?
10.27.2008 11:24pm
loki13 (mail):
Luckily for Sen. Stevens, part of the jail cells are constructed using a series of tubes.
10.27.2008 11:28pm
Oren:
Prison is not just a big building -- it's a series of cubes.
10.27.2008 11:29pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Mahan Atma:

Glancing at [Sec]. 8 for about, oh, 30 seconds, suggests that the Necessary and Proper Clause is the obvious hook in this case.

Study it more closely. U.S. Const. I:8:18 states:

The Congress shall have Power ... To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof. (Emphasis added.)

From an analysis of the historical usage of the phrase "carrying into Execution" one finds that it included only making an effort defined by the explicit powers, not whatever might be convenient to obtain a desired outcome.

In particular, the Framers regarded such powers as to regulate, to prohibit with criminal penalties, to tax, to spend, and to promote, to be distinct, each from the other, such that that none of them could be derived from any of the others under I:8:18.

The documentary evidence for this can be found in The Virginia Report, J.W. Randolph, ed. (1850).
10.27.2008 11:30pm
loki13 (mail):
Jon Roland,

In reference to necesssary and proper, John Marshall wrote the following:

Take, for example, the power "to establish post-offices and post-roads." This power is executed by the single act of making the establishment. But from this has been inferred the power and duty of carrying the mail along the post road from one post office to another. And from this implied power has again been inferred the right to punish those who steal letters from the post office, or rob the mail. It may be said with some plausibility that the right to carry the mail, and to punish those who rob it, is not indispensably necessary to the establishment of a post office and post road. This right is indeed essential to the beneficial exercise of the power, but not indispensably necessary to its existence. So, of the punishment of the crimes of stealing or falsifying a record or process of a Court of the United States, or of perjury in such Court. To punish these offences is certainly conducive to the due administration of justice. But Courts may exist, and may decide the causes brought before them, though such crimes escape punishment.

McCulloch v. Maryland. Please see what Oren wrote above- while you may have an idiosyncratic view, the ability of Congress to use N&P to legislate in many ways about specific Const. provisions (not including the commerce clause) has been good law since at least 1819.
10.27.2008 11:41pm
Mahan Atma (mail):
"In particular, the Framers regarded such powers as to regulate, to prohibit with criminal penalties, to tax, to spend, and to promote, to be distinct, each from the other, such that that none of them could be derived from any of the others under I:8:18.

The documentary evidence for this can be found in The Virginia Report, J.W. Randolph, ed. (1850)."


I've read through it, but there are multiple arguments, and it seems to me that they tend to support my contention, not yours.

Feel free to quote any specific passages though.
10.27.2008 11:44pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Tatil:

By the same logic, if I apply for a bank loan with fraudulent documents, no criminal charges should be filed against me.

Depends on where the event occurs, and thus the offense committed. If on federal territory, then federal statutes could apply, and in particular, 42 USC § 408 and 18 USC 1001 . However, if on state (nonfederal) territory, then only state statutes would apply. (Protectorates and dependencies are covered under U.S. Const. IV:3:2.)

I realize that the federal government is trying to assert general police powers, but I don't have to acquiesce in that usurpation.
10.27.2008 11:45pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Mahan Atma:

No judge will allow you to argue the constitutionality of the law to the jury. The court decides the constitutionality of the law, not the jury.

And in doing so they are violating the due process rights of the defendant. A longstanding usurpation doesn't extinguish a fundamental right. The bench rules on motions. The result is an opinion so far as the jury is concerned, whose job is to decide the general verdict, a necessary ingredient of which are all the points of law, which in a constitutional republic are mattters of fact as well as law. This is set forth in some detail in Stettinius v. United States, 22 F. Cas. 1322 (1839); 5 Cranch C.C. 573 , never overturned.

And I was hypothesizing being on the jury, not being defense counsel.
10.27.2008 11:59pm
Oren:
Wait, the federal government cannot make it a crime to lie about a transaction that is fundamentally interstate in nature??

Jon, nobody is asking you to acquiesce (mostly because nobody needs your acquiescence for anything). In fact, as I said earlier, I (and perhaps others), am willing to stipulate to your desired views on the commerce clause, provided we also agree that, like it or not, modern jurisprudence determines what laws are upheld and who goes to jail (to steal from DE).

I, for one, would like to discuss the law as it is, on its own terms even if that means discussing bogus doctrines invented by evil judges intent on usurping proper authority.
10.28.2008 12:08am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

Jon, whether or not you (or any fraction of us on the forum) agree with accepted constitutional doctrine, it is what it is.
...
Those positions are reasonable. What they are not, however, is relevant.

They are relevant to me, and to the not inconsiderable and growing number of persons who agree with me. We may currently be a minority, but that can, and with enough effort, will, change. In politics and law nothing is ever finally settled.

Keep in mind I was discussing what I would do as a juror, and what I teach others to do if they ever become jurors. Eventually, so many may follow my views that it will become impossible to convict anyone of a crime unless the courts return to constitutional fidelity.
10.28.2008 12:09am
a knight (mail) (www):
One down; eight to go. No Quarter, No Mercy for equivocators of human torture.
10.28.2008 12:17am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
loki13:

Jon Roland,
In reference to necesssary and proper, John Marshall wrote
[admission that that several powers were not necessary and proper but that he was going to uphold them anyway]
McCulloch v. Maryland.
...
the ability of Congress to use N&P to legislate in many ways about specific Const. provisions (not including the commerce clause) has been good law since at least 1819.

I hold McCulloch v. Maryland was wrongly decided, and even more srongly opined. So did Madison and Jefferson, whose position I regard as authoritative, and Marshall's as not.

In what sense "good"? Good as policy, or as conformant to the Constitution as originally understood? Sorry, but if it is not authorized by the Constitution I don't care whether or not it is good policy. If it is good enough, perhaps it can be the basis for amending the Constitution, but until that is done, it is not law as far as I am concerned, and if that puts me in the minority, so be it. Right is right, not whatever a majority might acquiesce in, especially if they do so foolishly.
10.28.2008 12:21am
first history:
This is a great opportunity for Sarah Palin. If Stevens wins reelection but is expelled or resigns from the Senate, she should run for his seat in the subsequent special election. This would give her the requisite experience on national issues for a presidential run in 2012.
10.28.2008 12:23am
Mahan Atma (mail):
"And I was hypothesizing being on the jury, not being defense counsel."


It sounded to me like you were blaming defense counsel for not knowing how to argue the Constitution to the jury.

Believe me, as an actual criminal defense attorney, I'd love to be able to do so. However, I'm forced to live in the real world in order to defend my clients. They don't have the luxury of my arguing the law as I wish it was.
10.28.2008 12:24am
loki13 (mail):
Jon,

You have a, uh, very idiosyncratic view of things. Here's a hint- you can't mix old cases and old opinions of founders and cherrypick the things you want while ignoring the rest. If something's been good law since 1819 (and before, given Congress's ability to punish interference with the post), then it probably is. And you say Jefferson, others say Hamilton. You say Madison, others say Jay. And so on. But you don't add much value to a discussion if, as pointed out, you simply point out that in your universe of individual Constitutional interpretation that is not followed by any court and hasn't been since before 1819 were followed, then it wouldn't be an issue.

That, and four dollars, will get you a coffee at Starbucks.
10.28.2008 12:29am
first history:
Stevens had the best defense money could buy (probably equal to what he saved on the house.) Brendan Sullivan is one of the top white collar criminal defense attorneys in the country. He is most famous for declaring when defending Oliver North "Well, sir, I'm not a potted plant. I'm here as a lawyer. That's my job." So don't cry crocidile tears for Ted Stevens. However, given the prosecutorial misconduct during the trial, I'll bet the conviction will be overturned.
10.28.2008 12:35am
Hoosier:
first history:
This is a great opportunity for Sarah Palin. If Stevens wins reelection but is expelled or resigns from the Senate, she should run for his seat in the subsequent special election. This would give her the requisite experience on national issues for a presidential run in 2012.

Well she can't very well do that while serving as vice president, now can she?
10.28.2008 12:37am
Randy R. (mail):
" His lawyers could have played up the "I am old and confused" bit and blamed his wife/Allen and the government."

They did. In fact, blaming his wife was the core of the strategy. Dana Milbrink chastized the defense and Stevens for throwing his wife under the bus in order to save his skin.

In the end, of course, he didn't even accomplish that. But let's stay tuned for the appeals.
10.28.2008 12:38am
NickM (mail) (www):
Libby did not get a pardon. He got a commutation of sentence. He's still a convicted felon. I expect Stevens to get the same - and really, sending an 84 year old man to a federal prison for an abuse of office crime would be a tremendous waste of resources.

Nick
10.28.2008 12:39am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

Wait, the federal government cannot make it a crime to lie about a transaction that is fundamentally interstate in nature??

Not according to strict construction. Of course they "can" do anything they want, as a matter of power. Just not as a matter of right.
...

I (and perhaps others), am willing to stipulate to your desired views on the commerce clause, provided we also agree that, like it or not, modern jurisprudence determines what laws are upheld and who goes to jail.

And I do recognize that my position is inconsistent with currently established practice, which I call regime -- what is actually enforced -- and refuse to dignify with the name of law. But I am trying to make regime conform to law, not just acquience in inconsistencies between the two. When something is wrong, we have a duty to speak out and not become complicit by our silence.

I, for one, would like to discuss the law as it is, on its own terms even if that means discussing bogus doctrines invented by evil judges intent on usurping proper authority.

Fine, and I do make that distinction, except that I don't accept that what "is" is "the law". Philosophers need to call things as they see them. Or, in the words of Gorbachev about glasnost, "First we have to stop the lying."
10.28.2008 12:40am
Oren:

And I was hypothesizing being thrown off the jury, not being defense counsel.
10.28.2008 12:43am
MarkField (mail):

I hold McCulloch v. Maryland was wrongly decided, and even more srongly opined. So did Madison and Jefferson, whose position I regard as authoritative, and Marshall's as not.


Madison actually agreed with the decision, at least to the extent that he considered the Bank constitutional. Madison did criticize Marshall's "undue latitude" of construction expressed as dicta.
10.28.2008 12:45am
Christopher Cooke (mail):
Randy R: I meant, they could have played up those defenses without Stevens taking the stand.
10.28.2008 12:47am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Mahan Atma:

Believe me, as an actual criminal defense attorney, I'd love to be able to do so. However, I'm forced to live in the real world in order to defend my clients. They don't have the luxury of my arguing the law as I wish it was.

You may have to conform to a violation of the rights of your client during a trial before a judge determined to violate them, but that doesn't mean you have to accept such violations on appeal, or at least in the arena of public opinion. If judges are elected in your jurisdiction, run for judge and make constitutional compliance on these points issues in your campaign. Talk to civic groups and legislators. Propose legislation to reform the situation, or even run for a state legislature or for Congress. If nothing else, write law review articles, or become a law professor and teach your students that the Constitution and regime are in conflict, and that while they may bave to operate covertly under the present regime, they need to keep working toward reconciling it with the Constitution as originally understood.
10.28.2008 12:52am
first history:
Hoosier sez:

Well she can't very well do that while serving as vice president, now can she?

You are right, becuase as VP she would be "in charge of the Senate." ;)

But it's always good to have a Plan B.
10.28.2008 1:01am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
loki13:

Jon,
You have a, uh, very idiosyncratic view of things.

I am in essential agreement with such legal scholars as Randy Barnett, Lawrence Solum, Gary Lawson, Kurt Lash, and Michael Stokes Paulsen, to name a few allies listed here. I may be a tad more emphatic and confrontational than they are, but our positions are very similar.
10.28.2008 1:02am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

And I was hypothesizing being thrown off the jury, not being defense counsel.

In which case your duty as a citizen would be to call a press conference and denounce the trial as corrupt, then follow up by making it an issue in the next several elections.

And if the judge enjoins you to shut up, defy the order and go to jail, and add that to the grounds for protest.

Sometimes, as Thoreau wrote, the only place for an honorable man is in jail.
10.28.2008 1:08am
Oren:


Fine, and I do make that distinction, except that I don't accept that what "is" is "the law". Philosophers need to call things as they see them. Or, in the words of Gorbachev about glasnost, "First we have to stop the lying."


Fine, we'll call it the blaw. Can we please talk about the blaw as it applies to the instant case?
10.28.2008 1:12am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
MarkField:

Madison actually agreed with [McCulloch v. Maryland], at least to the extent that he considered the Bank constitutional. Madison did criticize Marshall's "undue latitude" of construction expressed as dicta.

Not quite. It is one thing to charter a bank, and another to make it an instrumentality of the Union government that would make it tax exempt. Madison was somewhat unclear, but the correct decision would have been not that the National Bank was totally exempt from state taxes, but that any tax would have to be the same as on in-state banks, and that any operations done by the bank under contract to the government that implemented official powers might be exempt, but not their commercial operations in competition with comparable operations of other banks.
10.28.2008 1:16am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

Fine, we'll call it the blaw. Can we please talk about the blaw as it applies to the instant case?

"Blaw" might be mistaken as a typo. I prefer the term "anti-law". That highlights its invalidity.
10.28.2008 1:20am
Threadjacker (mail):
To sum up this thread:

1. This was a show trial.
2. Stevens was not convicted of a real crime.
3. The prosecution failed to prove up all the elements.
4. Stevens didn't break a real law - it was a fake one.
5. Stevens was denied due process.
6. Stevens had ineffective assistance of counsel.
7. Jurors in D.C. always convict Blonde people, and Republicans.
8. McCulloch v. Maryland was wrongly decided.

Great job everybody!

Jacked.
10.28.2008 1:38am
Oren:
In which case your duty as a citizen would be to call a press conference and denounce the trial as corrupt, then follow up by making it an issue in the next several elections.

Have you tried this? Does anyone show up for these press conferences?

And if the judge enjoins you to shut up, defy the order and go to jail, and add that to the grounds for protest.

Do you seriously envision this happening?

You certainly live a stressful life -- hounded for your personal acquiescence to their usurpation one minute, thrown in jail the next. I'm surprised you have time to spend law blogs at all.
10.28.2008 1:42am
loki13 (mail):
Jon,

Here's my essential problem with your analysis. You cherrypick your sources. You quote things out of context. You chose S.Ct. cases that agree with you and cite them approvingly, and dismiss every Supreme Court case that disagrees with you as magically invalid. You are not advocating law or strict construction, but an individualistic lawlessness. I do not doubt your intelligence, but I doubt your application of your theories.

On a more personal level, Lawrence Solum would most certainly not agree with you. I've got a pretty strong suspcion that some of the other individuals on that list wouldn't either, but I *know* Solum wouldn't. It's not very cool of you to drag other people who have real reputations in the legal community to buttress your own ideas, unless you are quoting something in particular.
10.28.2008 1:42am
tsotha:
Libby did not get a pardon. He got a commutation of sentence. He's still a convicted felon. I expect Stevens to get the same - and really, sending an 84 year old man to a federal prison for an abuse of office crime would be a tremendous waste of resources.

I disagree. If he's too old to go to jail he's too old to be a senator. He's dirty. Hell, he's been dirty for decades. Part of the reason you punish people is as a deterrent, and I don't want senators to get the idea their age will shield them from jail. He should spend the rest of his natural days in federal prison, right alongside Don Young and William Jefferson.

By the way, I don't believe Bush will intervene on his behalf. There isn't any reason to. If the Republican leadership had its way, Stevens would have been out years ago.
10.28.2008 1:47am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

In which case your duty as a citizen would be to call a press conference and denounce the trial as corrupt, then follow up by making it an issue in the next several elections.

Have you tried this? Does anyone show up for these press conferences?

I have never been empaneled on a jury, so haven't had the opportunity. But friends have, and had jurors call press conferences, and some press did show up. A good example was Sarah Bain (not Palin), foreperson of the Davidian jury. We have a speech by her here.


And if the judge enjoins you to shut up, defy the order and go to jail, and add that to the grounds for protest.

Do you seriously envision this happening?

Sure. If enough jurors started denouncing trials I'm sure that would happen next. Should plan for all eventualities.


You certainly live a stressful life -- hounded for your personal acquiescence to their usurpation one minute, thrown in jail the next. I'm surprised you have time to spend law blogs at all.

Other than an occasional veiled death threat from a federal agent, not that stressful yet. I figure that I need to step up the pace.
10.28.2008 1:55am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
loki13 (mail):

Jon,
Here's my essential problem with your analysis. You cherrypick your sources. You quote things out of context. You chose S.Ct. cases that agree with you and cite them approvingly, and dismiss every Supreme Court case that disagrees with you as magically invalid.

Please be more specific. My quotes are not out of context, but are linked back to the complete original source that I put online (and for which I am recognized as the editor), which you can read in context. Of course I consider some cases correctly decided, or opined, and some not. On my site you will find scholarly arguments for my positions, complete with cites where possible (not all these matters can be cited to short passages somewhere -- sometimes one has to read long treatises).


On a more personal level, Lawrence Solum would most certainly not agree with you.

What makes you think so? I spent an entire day with him at Randy Barnett's home in Boston when Randy lived there in 2005 and Larry was visiting, time spent expounding on many of these issues. There was no disagreement with my positions, other than that Randy had trouble accepting that a person becomes bound to the laws of a country by entering and remaining its territory (the Lockean theory). My point, although I didn't make it as clear on that occasion as I would later, was that to be laws rules need to conform to superior constitutions of nature and society, so that one does not accept any rules when he enters into a territory, but only "constitutional" ones. Randy has gotten close to that position in later writings but I don't know if he has carried the analysis to the point I have yet.

Since then, I have corresponded with Larry, and he has sent me things he is writing for my comments. Now, admittedly, he tends to keep his views somewhat subdued, and he might have disagreed with some position of mine and was too polite to say so, but I haven't spared him from my views and he has at least seemed not to disagree with them. So he at least considers my thinking stimulating, and I find nothing in his writings that really conflicts with my positions, although I sometimes have a different take on some of the more subtle philosophical issues, like "semantic originalism".

I am not just dropping names. I correspond and talk to these guys.
10.28.2008 2:20am
J. Aldridge:
Oren prefers the burning of the Starry Messenger so that the scriptures (err law) may not have to face the scutiny of truth.
10.28.2008 2:38am
Anonymoose (mail):
Sir, I know Michael Stokes Paulsen, and you are no Michael Stokes Paulsen.

and to the not inconsiderable and growing number of persons who agree with me.

Merely because the internet has created the opportunity for you to meet people who agree with your stance does not mean, in and of itself, that your stance is becoming more popular. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a bad way to go through life.
10.28.2008 5:14am
Jay Ballou (mail):
Here's my essential problem with your analysis. You cherrypick your sources. You quote things out of context. You chose S.Ct. cases that agree with you and cite them approvingly, and dismiss every Supreme Court case that disagrees with you as magically invalid. You are not advocating law or strict construction, but an individualistic lawlessness. I do not doubt your intelligence, but I doubt your application of your theories.

On a more personal level, Lawrence Solum would most certainly not agree with you. I've got a pretty strong suspcion that some of the other individuals on that list wouldn't either, but I *know* Solum wouldn't. It's not very cool of you to drag other people who have real reputations in the legal community to buttress your own ideas, unless you are quoting something in particular.


None of that actually points out any problem with his analysis, it's just a bunch of unsupported judgments of yours.
10.28.2008 6:43am
Jay Ballou (mail):
"Blaw" might be mistaken as a typo. I prefer the term "anti-law". That highlights its invalidity.

Are you familiar with the word "tendentious"?
10.28.2008 6:45am
Jay Ballou (mail):
Merely because the internet has created the opportunity for you to meet people who agree with your stance does not mean, in and of itself, that your stance is becoming more popular. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a bad way to go through life.

Even if he's making the mistake implied by the first sentence (and you've offered no reason to think he is), your second sentence is a non sequitur -- there's no fallacy about cause here.
10.28.2008 6:58am
Jay Ballou (mail):
From a strict constructionist standpoint, there are some problems with the charge.

Each house of Congress has authority to make rules for the conduct of its own members, and penalize with fines or removal, but no power to impose criminal penalties.


There are no such words in the Constitution. As a matter of strict or any other construction, there are no exceptions in the application of law to members of Congress other than the "privileged from arrest" clause.
10.28.2008 7:07am
LM (mail):

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a bad way to go through life.

I love how much Latin I learn on these threads. So post hoc ergo proper hoc means "fat, drunk and stupid." Cool.
10.28.2008 8:52am
Oren:


Sure. If enough jurors started denouncing trials I'm sure that would happen next. Should plan for all eventualities.

Then you have delusions of grandeur. You aren't important enough for judges to care about shutting you up.
10.28.2008 10:17am
MarkField (mail):

Not quite. It is one thing to charter a bank, and another to make it an instrumentality of the Union government that would make it tax exempt. Madison was somewhat unclear, but the correct decision would have been not that the National Bank was totally exempt from state taxes, but that any tax would have to be the same as on in-state banks, and that any operations done by the bank under contract to the government that implemented official powers might be exempt, but not their commercial operations in competition with comparable operations of other banks.


This is simply speculation on your part. You're assuming that Madison would agree with you and then citing Madison as authority for your position.
10.28.2008 12:14pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Jay Ballou:

Each house of Congress has authority to make rules for the conduct of its own members, and penalize with fines or removal, but no power to impose criminal penalties.


There are no such words in the Constitution. As a matter of strict or any other construction, there are no exceptions in the application of law to members of Congress other than the "privileged from arrest" clause.

Read my words more carefully. I was citing two provisions of the Constitution as possible sources for authority. The one above was U.S. Const. I:5:2:

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

I found no authority in that clause, so turned to another, U.S. Const. I:8:17, and discussed how it would only provide authority if Stevens had signed the reports on federal territory, and cited two sources for that analysis.

Of course members of Congress are subject to the same laws as others, but my analysis finds that constitutional jurisdiction over anyone is limited in ways that might not make the statute in question applicable to Stevens.
10.28.2008 1:22pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

Sure. If enough jurors started denouncing trials I'm sure that would happen next. Should plan for all eventualities.

Then you have delusions of grandeur. You aren't important enough for judges to care about shutting you up.

Interesting how you take a statement about "enough jurors" and the utility of them planning for injunction, and apply it to me. I could be one such juror but this is about a movement and its members, not me.
10.28.2008 1:29pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
MarkField:

This is simply speculation on your part. You're assuming that Madison would agree with you and then citing Madison as authority for your position.

Nonsense. I said nothing about Madison agreeing, or disagreeing, with me. I said his position was unclear. If he did the analysis I did, of distinguishing between the taxable and tax-exempt activities of an organization like the National Bank, we don't have a record of it. I was arguing for the analysis he and others should have done, and may or may not have done.
10.28.2008 1:34pm
MarkField (mail):

I said nothing about Madison agreeing, or disagreeing, with me.



From your post here: "I hold McCulloch v. Maryland was wrongly decided, and even more srongly opined. So did Madison and Jefferson, whose position I regard as authoritative, and Marshall's as not."
10.28.2008 2:28pm
Oren:

Interesting how you take a statement about "enough jurors" and the utility of them planning for injunction, and apply it to me. I could be one such juror but this is about a movement and its members, not me.

An injunction against what? A non-existent gag order?

Can you point to any instance where a judge has enjoined jurors from speaking about their experiences after the trial is completed? I searched and couldn't find any.
10.28.2008 4:02pm
David M. Nieporent (www):
Put a different way, if this was Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, or Barack Obama, would the false statements on the disclosure forms suddenly become a "real crime"?
It is Charlie Rangel, and I think it's a real crime in both cases.
10.28.2008 6:44pm
loki13 (mail):
Jon,

I'm not going to drag this on, but to clarify a few points:

1. I don't know the details of your email correspondence with Lawrence Solum. I do know he is a pleasant person, and in a such a manner is unlikely to cast aspersions on the ideas of others. I do know that his work (he has an excellent blog at Legal Theory blog) in constitutional jurisprudence stands in stark contrast to what you have previously written, and I think that it is 'name-dropping' to invoke him as a general support for your arguments (ad verecundiam).

2. I believe you do cherrypick your cases. For the purposes of your jury argument, you use an 1839 case and claim that it has never been overturned. Whether it was an implicit or an explicit overruling, however, it is still not used in modern jurisprudence for the purposes that you wish to advance it for (actually, Prof. Solum once did a nice bit on implicit overruling). The you completely discount one of the seminal commerce clause cases (the other, of course, being GvN) stating incorrectly that Jefferson and Madison were against it. It boggles the mind.

3. I just don't have a high amount of trust for your work at this point. This is not to mean that I don't take your research seriously, but your results are too convenient. All law that agrees with you is great caselaw, while the law you don't like is 'anti-law' based on anecdote and supposition. Hey- it's human. I think the Court has taken wrong turns before; I think the Slaughterhouse/Cruikshank duo sent us down the wrong path, and don't get me started on Hans. But you know what? If someone wants to know about 1983 suits, I don't just endlessly repeat that Hans was 'anti-law'.
10.28.2008 7:46pm
Oren:
Research? What research? Back at the beginning of this thread, I went looking for any of Jon's work to see it presented in a less irritating manner (after all, many irritating people are quite correct in their analysis, and I felt that reading a paper would be more enlightening than this discussion). Author searches for "Jon Roland" on Lexis, JSTOR, ASP all turned up bupkis.
10.28.2008 9:42pm
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
MarkField:

I said nothing about Madison agreeing, or disagreeing, with me.

From your post here: "I hold McCulloch v. Maryland was wrongly decided, and even more srongly opined. So did Madison and Jefferson, whose position I regard as authoritative, and Marshall's as not."

Read more carefully. I said I was in general agreement with Madison and Jefferson that the case was wrongly decided and opined, but my reasons for so holding are somewhat different from theirs, and there is no evidence they agreed with my analysis.

From Answers.com:

Critics of the decision also included James Madison, who as president of the United States (1809–1817) had signed the bill creating the Second Bank of the United States into law, and who generally supported most of the Supreme Court's nationalist rulings during the second decade of the nineteenth century. Despite this, he believed “that the occasion did not call for the general and abstract doctrine interwoven with the decision of the particular case.” The real danger of Marshall's decision, Madison believed, was “the high sanction given to a latitude in expounding the Constitution which seems to break down the landmarks intended by a specification of the powers of Congress, and to substitute for a definite connection between means and ends, a legislative discretion as to the former to which no practical limit can be assigned.”
10.29.2008 12:57am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

Can you point to any instance where a judge has enjoined jurors from speaking about their experiences after the trial is completed? I searched and couldn't find any.

The discussion was about a a juror thrown off a jury for arguing the law with other jurors, and I was hypothesizing that juror denouncing the trial while it was still ongoing. No, I am not aware of a gag order in such a situation, but I have overheard a conversation between a prosecutor and a judge in which they contemplated a gag order in such a situation. If they can speculate about doing it, one has to expect they might do it, and I like to warn people of that possibility so they are ready for it in a fastbreaking scenario.
10.29.2008 1:05am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
loki13:

Jon,
1. I don't know the details of your email correspondence with Lawrence Solum.

Most of my sense he and others agree with me comes from private oral conversation more than email exchanges. Most seem to downplay their positions in public. Larry seems to like to dwell in the more abtract realm of theory, but when we discuss methods of constitutional construction and the historical evidence, we seem to be on the same page. Another I could mention is Roger Pilon and others at Cato, Mises, Heritage, and similar libertarian or conservative organizations. Of course, the strongest agreement comes when I get together with other legal historians.

2. ... you use an 1839 case and claim that it has never been overturned. Whether it was an implicit or an explicit overruling, however, it is still not used in modern jurisprudence ... Then you completely discount one of the seminal commerce clause cases (the other, of course, being GvN) stating incorrectly that Jefferson and Madison were against it.

Needless to say I don't accept "implicit overturning", but the point of citing Stettinius is for the evidence it provides of original understanding of the concept of "jury trial". What is important about it is dictum, of course (and so it is for Marbury), but I regard it as persuasive, and so do many others once they read and think about it. It is about history and logic, not precedent.

Do you mean Gibbons v. Ogden? Madison and Jefferson certainly disagreed with Marshall on that case as well. There is a good discussion of that here.

Speaking of getting together, I am looking for someone to split the cost of a room at the Mayflower for the Federalist Society National Convention Nov. 20-22. $219/night is a lot of money just for a place to sleep and shower. I promise not to snore.
10.29.2008 2:02am
Jon Roland (mail) (www):
Oren:

Author searches for "Jon Roland" on Lexis, JSTOR, ASP all turned up bupkis.

Legal historians generally don't publish there. I have published a couple of articles for a law review, but it may not have been covered on those sources. I've put another on SSRN. But most of my work is editing classic works and commenting on them, and I do all that online. I am interested in getting the work out quickly to as many people as possible. I don't care about my stuff being citable in court (although my LR article has been cited in court).
10.29.2008 2:11am
fishbane (mail):
I think that exposing Stevens to the voters should have been punishment enough.

Why. exactly? Do you think that thew jurors were wrong, when convicting him of seven felonies? Do you really want a convicted felon in power?

I find this absurd.
10.29.2008 7:31am
MarkField (mail):
Jon, I think the difficulty people are having here is demonstrated by the fact that your 11:57 post supports my position and undercuts your own. I'll just add that my original response to you noted that Madison criticized the undue latitude of construction Marshall used in M'Culloch, and invite anyone to compare that with the blurb from Answers.com.
10.29.2008 12:32pm