"Increas[e] Student and Faculty Diversity" While "Not Admit[ting] Students Who Are Intolerant":

What a fine suggestion from Professor of Sociology Johnny Eric Williams. At least it makes quite clear what the professor means, and doesn't mean, by "diversity."

Note that the quotes are the article's paraphrases of Prof. Williams' statements, but I e-mailed Prof. Williams to ask, "Is that an accurate paraphrase of your suggestion, or did the newspaper misreport it?," and was told that the paraphrase was "in the ballpark" (with no attempt at amendment or clarification).

UPDATE: My original post was titled "Increas[e] Student and Faculty Diversity" By "Not Admit[ting] Students Who Are Intolerant"; Orin's comment led me to change the "by" to the more precise "while." Many thanks to Orin for the correction.]

Crunchy Frog:
Intolerant of what, I wonder?

/irony
10.29.2008 1:54pm
theobromophile (www):
Oddly, when Sarah Palin said that she is tolerant of homosexuality, she got quite a bit of flack: apparently, tolerance is very 1990s and "acceptance" is the new thing.

That aside, the idea of "intolerance" seems to be a euphemism for non-liberal ideas. As Crunchy Frog points out, will those who are intolerant of conservative and libertarian ideas not be admitted?

Final point: if part of the purpose of an academic environment is to expose students to ideas that they would not find elsewhere, wouldn't one want to accept more, not fewer, "intolerant" people? Otherwise, a university would stock itself with students who cannot get as much as their "intolerant" peers out of the environment, and, of course, those "intolerant" people will never be exposed to ideas which could change their perspective.
10.29.2008 2:00pm
Anderson (mail):
Does EV get some newsletter from FIRE or suchlike that has all these reports in it?

Three consecutive posts of this nature seems to suggest it.

But yes, Prof. Williams has an excellent point. The college can also increase its academic prowess by not admitting students in need of an education.
10.29.2008 2:02pm
Gregory Conen (mail):
Well, since Trinity is a private college, there is at least a colorable argument.

One of the non-coercive ways to combat intolerance is by refusing to associate with intolerant people. Certainly, it would be appropriate for a voluntary society (like a fraternity in the academic context) to deny membership to intolerant people. Similarly, it may be appropriate to refuse to hire an employee on those grounds (if they insist on expressing their opinion at work, discrimination laws may REQUIRE that employers not hire them, but that's another story).

I think that making "commitment to diversity" or "tolerance" part of the admission criteria is not coercive in the same way that punishing students for "intolerant" speech is. Once a person is a member of a community, especially one with social and economic ties as tight as a college, the threat of expulsion (which is behind all academic sanctions) is fairly heavy-handed. Merely denying an applicant the privilege to join the community is not as coercive.
10.29.2008 2:07pm
gasman (mail):
If one is tolerant, then doesn't that mean accepting those who are tolerant; or do we mean that being intolerant of intolerance is to be tolerated?

Williams said, it could, by changing its policies to not admit students who are intolerant...


And how would one measure that? It's not like an applicant is likely to mark on the application a box indicating that they hate jews, gays, and liberals. Perhaps the school could just exclude groups of people known to be intolerant, such as white middle class males.
10.29.2008 2:09pm
Eugene Volokh (www):
Anderson: I do get FIRE's newsletter, but only the Quinnipiac post is based on a FIRE item. The others are based on a Nexis Eclipse query that I have running, which picks up news stories with (among other things) the term "hate speech."
10.29.2008 2:11pm
just me (mail):
I am curious by what measure "intolerance" is determined, and how do they know which students they shouldn't be admitting?
10.29.2008 2:12pm
Houston Lawyer:
We all know what he means, no conservatives or Republicans allowed. Mustn't let the students ever hear a word that is not predigested by the leftie administration.
10.29.2008 2:13pm
titus32:
Gregory, putting aside whether it's good policy to exclude the "intolerant" (whatever that means), how would the school possibly enforce this policy?
10.29.2008 2:15pm
Archon (mail):
Great idea. Let's marginalize people with unpopular ideas even more by denying them a college education and probably any type of professional employment.

We all know that poor, marginalized people who face a system that keeps them poor and marginalized are quite happy people and don't do things like riot or attempt to overthrow the social order.
10.29.2008 2:15pm
Archon (mail):
Great idea. Let's marginalize people with unpopular ideas even more by denying them a college education and probably any chance at professional employment.

We all know that poor, marginalized people who face a system that keeps them poor and marginalized are quite happy people and don't do things like riot or attempt to overthrow the social order.
10.29.2008 2:16pm
TJIC (www):
> Well, since Trinity is a private college, there is at least a colorable argument.

That's some sort of racist "code word", right?

Ban him!
10.29.2008 2:16pm
Tolerance:
How "tolerant" of the "tolerant" professor to refuse to be "tolerant" of the "intolerant."

Can you follow that?
10.29.2008 2:18pm
OrinKerr:
Eugene,

There's a possibility you're misreading the statement. From the original story:
If the college wishes to end hate on campus, Williams said, it could, by changing its policies to not admit students who are intolerant, increasing student and faculty diversity, and making diversity a central goal.
I read that as suggesting three independent steps the university could take: 1) not admit students who are intolerant, 2) increase diversity, 3) make diversity a central goal. I don't think he was suggesting that not admitting intolerant students would increase diversity.
10.29.2008 2:20pm
Tolerance:
I love how "tolerance" advocates show their "intolerance" of the "intolerant."
10.29.2008 2:22pm
LarryA (mail) (www):
Wow.

I completely agree with Prof. Williams. Gaia forbid that institutions of higher education should have to put up with people who still have something to learn.
10.29.2008 2:25pm
Omar Ha-Redeye (mail) (www):
Other students should feel uncomfortable, especially when incidents like this occur.

Minority students frequently feel uncomfortable. And yes, this does translate into their perecptions of the law school experience.

School administrators should proactively take this issue seriously to get the most out of their diverse student body.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=913824
10.29.2008 2:26pm
Gregory Conen (mail):
Enforcement would be a challenge, to be sure. But if the college values racial/sexual/"cultural" tolerance, then by all means let them make commitment to that tolerance play a role in admissions. All the criticism I saw before I made my post was of the policy in the abstract, not about the challenges of applying it without cutting of cultural debate completely.

@Archon:
Even ignoring the hundreds of public universities they could attend, that's an absurd argument. Giving opinions undue credence because of the threat of violence ("riot or attempt to overthrow the social order") is a bad idea in any case. Further, the same can be said for personally eschewing racists:

"Let's marginalize people with unpopular ideas even more by denying them a [our friendship].

We all know that [friendless] people who face a [social group that ostracizes them] are quite happy people and don't do things like [go on shooting sprees]."

But surely you aren't arguing I have a duty to make friends with people whose opinions I find disgusting?
10.29.2008 2:30pm
Harry Eagar (mail):
Hmmm. Would, say, a Nation of Islam applicant count as more diverse or less diverse?

How about a Buddhist of European heritage?
10.29.2008 2:32pm
FWB (mail):
Sticks and stones ...

These people need to grow some thicker skin. When one responds to these incidents, one allows others to control oneself. Ignore comments, ignore markings on walls, etc. Deal with the perps in court if and when there is a legitimate (physical) attack as in assault and/or battery. But up to that point words are words and people need to be tougher.

If one cares about what others think of him/her, one gives power over oneself to the others. What one thinks of oneself outweighs what everyone else thinks.

Can't handle the fact that no matter what you do there are always going to be people who do not like you. Too bad!
10.29.2008 2:35pm
Dave N (mail):
How "tolerant" of the "tolerant" professor to refuse to be "tolerant" of the "intolerant."

Can you follow that?
Sure, it reminds me of Major Frank Burns' quote from the television series M*A*S*H:

"It's nice to be nice to the nice."
10.29.2008 2:37pm
just me (mail):
I read that as suggesting three independent steps the university could take: 1) not admit students who are intolerant, 2) increase diversity, 3) make diversity a central goal. I don't think he was suggesting that not admitting intolerant students would increase diversity.

Even so, how do you measure this? Who decides what is intolerant enough to not be admitted? And how do you even find out if applicants meet or do not meet your tolerance standard.
10.29.2008 2:55pm
MadHatChemist:
"Diversity" means putting students into various classifications. These classifications serve to differentiate students into seperate groups, and at the same time push uniformity with each group. Makes it easier to control people. One then simply has to "unite" these groups against a common enemy (e.g. strait white males) and you have a single monolithic ideoligy under the title of "diversiy."

This is corporatism as its purist.
10.29.2008 3:01pm
titus32:
Gregory wrote: Enforcement would be a challenge, to be sure. But if the college values racial/sexual/"cultural" tolerance, then by all means let them make commitment to that tolerance play a role in admissions.

I agree it would be a "challenge", which is why I wondered how a proponent of the idea (i.e., you) would enforce it -- apparently you're at a loss. Perhaps Prof. Williams has some bright ideas.
10.29.2008 3:06pm
SenatorX (mail):
So he means to ban Muslims until they are more tolerant of atheists?
10.29.2008 3:12pm
Monty:
I'll pile on the wave of commentors who ask what constitutes intolerance. If we are talking about excluding un-repentant, activist raicsts then I would have not objection.

The problem is that it would be all to easy to expand the definition of intolerance to current realms of political debate. Are you intolerant if you oppose affirmative action? Are you intolerant if you oppose diverting resources towards the promotion of diversity? Are you intolerant if you refuse to accept the practices common to an ethnicity/race/nation/religion but don't discriminate against those who have renounced the practices? What about intolerance of the overweight? Smokers? Recreational drug users?

Your going too far if you go beyond overt discrimination.
10.29.2008 3:13pm
TomH (mail):
Agreeing with the thoughts of FWB above, the school will be needing a division of Thought Police.

I was of the belief that teh West left this behind with the Berlin Wall.
10.29.2008 3:29pm
badimitation (mail):
Some filmmaker should really tag along when I quiz my women friends about their "tolerance." I'll ask, isn't it true you'd call the police on any straight man who suggested you participate in sexual practices commonly engaged in by gay men? And they're like, like what? And when I tell 'em, they don't believe it. For many of the soccer moms in Marin, tolerance actually is ignorance. I think what I'm gonna do is buy 20 copies of Larry Kraker's book "Faggots," and pass 'em around.
10.29.2008 3:32pm
Al (mail):
Monty, let me see if I can answer your questions:

Are you intolerant if you oppose affirmative action?

Yes.

Are you intolerant if you oppose diverting resources towards the promotion of diversity?

Yes.

Are you intolerant if you refuse to accept the practices common to an ethnicity/race/nation/religion

It depends on the ethnicity/race/nation/religion.

What about intolerance of the overweight?

It depends on the ethnicity/race/religion/beliefs of the overweight person.

Smokers?

It depends on what they are smoking.

Recreational drug users?

It depends on the ethnicity/race/religion/beliefs of the drug user.

Hope that helps.
10.29.2008 3:32pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
I actually agree with FWB. Though in many cases markings on walls may amount to vandalism and Vandals (as opposed to the closely related Goths) can be tried in court for their activities. And in these cases, I think the administration needs to enforce things in an even-handed way. Drawing a swastika on the wall ought to be no different than drawing a flower.

One of the things that alarms me about our country at the moment is the move away from dialog and controversy as if these things are somehow immoral. It is better to be surrounded by people who support one's delusions than those who may actually challenge your deeply held beliefs.
10.29.2008 3:38pm
EIDE_Interface (mail):
Is it any wonder I think America is heading down the path to Civil War II...
10.29.2008 3:46pm
Calculated Risk:

These people need to grow some thicker skin. When one responds to these incidents, one allows others to control oneself. Ignore comments, ignore markings on walls, etc. Deal with the perps in court if and when there is a legitimate (physical) attack as in assault and/or battery. But up to that point words are words and people need to be tougher.

If one cares about what others think of him/her, one gives power over oneself to the others. What one thinks of oneself outweighs what everyone else thinks.

Can't handle the fact that no matter what you do there are always going to be people who do not like you. Too bad!


As someone who has a very thick skin but who has had friends and close relationships with people with thin skins, all I have to say is your point of view is extremely unrealistic.

Thick skinned people, like me and you are no doubt better off. We are happier, because we do not let the opinions of others control us or bother us very often.

A lot of people with thinner skin would in fact like to have thicker skin. But they cannot just snap their fingers and make it so. Just like I cannot just snap my fingers and suddenly instantly make myself more empathetic.

Now, I am not saying that change is wholly impossible for all people. But, in many instances and for many people as a practical matter, it is. When you are dealing with questions of sensitivity to the opinions of others, you are dealing with something that is ingrained and long established, perhaps through both environment and genetics.

In any case, I think that this is ingrained enough that it is reasonable to take non-coercive actions to condemn and ostracize those who do not exhibit a reasonable level of sensitivity to others. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." I learned that as a kid. And for me, it is mostly true. (Not entirely true, but mostly true.) But for others, this will never describe reality. Your view that people can just snap their fingers and change is entirely unrealistic. You have to take people as you find them.
10.29.2008 3:50pm
A.C.:
Unenforceable. All devout religious believers, of any religion, would be banned if you don't qualify "tolerance." Tolerance of pork in the dining hall, with no other options? Of coed showers? Classes on Easter Sunday?

"Tolerance" has no meaning without an answer to the question "of what?"

And what about women and people of color who are intolerant of people outside their group? I know some lesbians who would get bounced, but I'm betting this isn't the intent of the policy.

Look, if you want to have an anti-discrimination policy, just call it that and then argue about what it should contain. But going beyond that, into the realm of social engineering, is just annoying.
10.29.2008 4:07pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Calc.
All you say may be true about skin thickness.
But you overlook the benefits of pretending to be thin-skinned wrt certain issues.
10.29.2008 4:10pm
Federal Dog:
Given the frequency of hoaxes designed to provoke outrage based on alleged racist harassment, is there any reason to think that this post was genuine?
10.29.2008 4:17pm
Roux (mail):
They protested of a post on a website?

A few years ago the Univ of Mississippi had racial epithets written on some dormitory walls. After a long investigation including lengthy questioning of many white male students. It was discovered that the culprits were black student trying to stir things up. Their punishment....drum roll.... they had to write an essay apologizing to the student body.
10.29.2008 4:18pm
A.C.:
Why white MALE students? Women can certainly be racist, and rather vocal about it. And people of color can be racist against people of a different color, or against whites.

What if gay men are bigoted against straight women? Who trumps? How about if it's really rich gay men of color against disabled working class white straight men?

It's all too silly.

I think the correct position is to be intolerant of dingbats, and polite to everyone else.

The advantage of politeness is that you never get put on the spot as to whether you are actually accepting someone, merely tolerating him, or successfully hiding your seething hatred. And it doesn't really matter, does it?
10.29.2008 4:26pm
Gregory Conen (mail):
Regarding enforcement, or "defining intolerance", just because something is hard doesn't mean one should give up on a potentially useful idea. If there is a risk of overshooting, then all it takes is some care to be conservative.

As a reductio ad absurdum example, I don't think anyone could object if Trinity turns down any student who lists the KKK among their extracurricular activities.

Instead, everyone here seems to prefer projecting bad intentions onto Prof. Williams. I know that certain factions have a history of unfair applications of "tolerance", but the issues (vague though they are) mentioned seem fairly clearly objectionable. And I have to agree that the canned "diversity lectures" common in academia are stupid and generally unhelpful.
10.29.2008 4:30pm
wyswyg:
"I'll pile on the wave of commentors who ask what constitutes intolerance. If we are talking about excluding un-repentant, activist raicsts then I would have not objection."




Then you have no problem with excluding the majority of non-white students?
10.29.2008 4:36pm
wyswyg:
"Regarding enforcement, or "defining intolerance", just because something is hard doesn't mean one should give up on a potentially useful idea."



Seems to me that it might be a useful idea if the schools confined themselves to trying to teach the subjects which they are nominally supposed to be teaching, and refrained from trying to be the self-appointed thought police.
10.29.2008 4:40pm
Hoosier:
Is, say, a Mormon "intolerant" by definition?
10.29.2008 4:41pm
Hoosier:
As a reductio ad absurdum example, I don't think anyone could object if Trinity turns down any student who lists the KKK among their extracurricular activities.

Why couldn't I object?

Isn't that very much like saying the doctor should exclude sick people from his rounds? What exactly is the job of an educator? To avoid unpleasant situations?
10.29.2008 4:43pm
Howard257 (mail):
the obromophile:

"Tolerance" may have been so 90's, but acceptance is so 2004. Today we must CELEBRATE and NURTURE our differences:

http://www.wiu.edu/ucoso/riddle.htm
10.29.2008 4:44pm
wyswyg:
"When you are dealing with questions of sensitivity to the opinions of others, you are dealing with something that is ingrained and long established, perhaps through both environment and genetics.

In any case, I think that this is ingrained enough that it is reasonable to take non-coercive actions to condemn and ostracize those who do not exhibit a reasonable level of sensitivity to others."



I notice that it does not worry you that those "who do not exhibit a reasonable level of sensitivity to others" may be exhibiting "something that is ingrained and long established, perhaps through both environment and genetics". That only applies to what PJ O'Rourke termed "the Perpeptually Indignant".
10.29.2008 4:44pm
wyswyg:
"Is, say, a Mormon "intolerant" by definition?"




Or a Christian ....
10.29.2008 4:45pm
wyswyg:

"As a reductio ad absurdum example, I don't think anyone could object if Trinity turns down any student who lists the KKK among their extracurricular activities. "




All right, I'll object. If schools are going to admit some terrorists and radicals then they have an obligation to admit them all.
10.29.2008 4:48pm
Hoosier:
As a concrete example of what tolerance means on campus:

For a couple years I served on a campus committee that looked at biannual exit surveys of college students throughout the nation. One of the biggest "concerns" raised by committee members regarding our students was the political leanings reported by exiting grads.

You see, a greater percentage of them departed as center-right or right than was the case at our peer institutions. The issue for discussion was "What can we do about this in the future?" Because we need to make sure our students are, among other things, more "tolerant" when they leave.

"Tolerance quotients" at colleges are a terrible idea.

QED
10.29.2008 4:50pm
Hoosier:
All right, I'll object. If schools are going to admit some terrorists and radicals then they have an obligation to admit them all.

Admit. Or, you know, tenure them.
10.29.2008 4:51pm
A.C.:
Again, politeness works. Basic manners. Mostly I don't care what people really think. In fact, I want them to hide most of it, sort of how I really wish they would hide their toe fungus and chipped nail polish during flip flop season.

Let's bring back insincerity and raging hypocrisy as social virtues. Enough with the baring our souls. Or our feet. We've all got far too much information about everybody, and it doesn't seem to make life any easier.
10.29.2008 4:52pm
plutosdad (mail):
One of the non-coercive ways to combat intolerance is by refusing to associate with intolerant people.

The real problem is of course the definition of intolerance. For many it is anyone who disagrees with their beliefs, or disagrees with certain solutions to societal problems. Just as many "open-minded" people are actually not, they just have different values than what we think of as "conservative" values. They are the same, just different.

And that is one of the big problems with that. If a school were to say "we don't want intolerance" then refuses to admit anyone pro-life (or whatever the issue is), they have done their students a disservice because they will never hear an alternative opinion on the issue.

Obviously for our friends we like to associate with people we are similar to.

But a school is not place for friends to just hang out and pat each other on the back for being the same. A school is where we want to challenge people to grow and hone and mature their beliefs.

I think it's actually intolerant to not associate with people we deem intolerant, so instead of spreading my beliefs and convincing others, I'm actually being intolerant myself. And the other person that I have deemed intolerant does not learn from my behavior anything except that I am a snob, or something similar, and may project that belief onto others he meets like me. And thus I have made him even more intolerant. And in addition I myself have lost an opportunity to learn and grow in my own opinions from discourse with someone who disagrees with me.
10.29.2008 4:54pm
ed (mail) (www):
Hmmmmm.

@ gasman


"And how would one measure that? It's not like an applicant is likely to mark on the application a box indicating that they hate jews, gays, and liberals. Perhaps the school could just exclude groups of people known to be intolerant, such as white middle class males."


well if the student weighs the same as a duck ... then he's --intolerant--!!

Burn him!!
10.29.2008 5:13pm
Harry Eagar (mail):
'Is, say, a Mormon "intolerant" by definition?'

That was a wicked googly.

Considering the reaction of some, eg, Jews, at their efforts to be inclusive.
10.29.2008 5:17pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):

As a reductio ad absurdum example, I don't think anyone could object if Trinity turns down any student who lists the KKK among their extracurricular activities.


I suppose since Trinity is a private institution, I couldn't object to this measure per se. However, I would think that something like the Brandenburg v Ohio ruling might apply to public higher education institutions as well and really should apply where we are talking about free speech.

Two points about Brandenburg:

1) Brandenburg was a KKK member

2) Read the excerpts from his speech in footnote 1 of the majority opinion. These excerpts may violate the terms of service for this site if I repeat them here. Yet the courts ruled that this was protected speech that the government couldn't regulate.
10.29.2008 5:19pm
Gregory Conen (mail):
"I notice that it does not worry you that those "who do not exhibit a reasonable level of sensitivity to others" may be exhibiting "something that is ingrained and long established, perhaps through both environment and genetics"."

I know a good psychiatrist, if they're genuinely interested in changing they're genetically/environmentally programmed beliefs. If they're racist, and like it, I have no desire to associate with them, and no authority to change them against their will.

This goes to the rest of the "so doctors shouldn't see sick people?" comments, too. If you don't want colleges punishing beliefs, then they won't be changing beliefs. What colleges "cure" is ignorance, and they punish (by expulsion) persistent, willful ignorance, aka "failing all your classes". If colleges admit racists with the intent of changing them, racism will be punished.

"All right, I'll object. If schools are going to admit some terrorists and radicals then they have an obligation to admit them all."

Even if that were true, you're left with the difficulty of defining "radicals". You can criticize the definitions the school uses, but it doesn't seem that the immediate problem is black racism against whites (based on the information given). So focusing on the KKK may be more urgent than the NOI.

"For many it is anyone who disagrees with their beliefs, or disagrees with certain solutions to societal problems" etc, etc:
Look at the incidents Prof. Williams points to. Does it seem that he is upset about respectful disagreements with his beliefs, or something different?

@einhverfr:
I would agree that public colleges, like government institutions in general, are bound to be scrupulously fair about not disfavoring beliefs, and so this argument would not apply to them.

But a private school can morally say that certain beliefs are unhelpful and do not provide a useful perspective, and so exclude those beliefs from discussion. It's a fair argument which beliefs might fall under this category, and colleges, as institutions dedicated to free thought, should err on the side of inclusion. But I have no problem with a college saying "no, the KKK doesn't deserve to be heard", unlike if they said the same thing about the Mormon church. If you want to "learn and grow in my own opinions from discourse", you'll get better value for your time elsewhere.

"I think it's actually intolerant to not associate with people we deem intolerant"
Tolerance is not a universal virtue. There is no reason to be tolerant to (unrepentant) murderers, etc. Tolerance suggests a degree of respect for someone or some ideology; I don't respect racists (for their racism; I might respect a racist whose other traits were highly laudable, but their racism counts against them).
10.29.2008 5:46pm
David Schwartz (mail):
What this shows is that many advocates of diversity actually want the mere appearance of diversity. When it comes to the things they actually care about, such as ideology, they want uniformity.
10.29.2008 5:55pm
Jeffersonian22 (mail):
CRUSH INTOLERANCE!
10.29.2008 5:56pm
Da Coyote (mail):
Sorry, but thanks modern lib professors, a Sociology degree doesn't count for much more than a future of "Do you want to supersize that."

Those of us who teach intellectually demanding subjects actually want talented students - which largely eliminates most of those pursuing this loon's courses.
10.29.2008 6:26pm
Andy Freeman (mail):
> If the college wishes to end hate on campus, Williams said, it could, by changing its policies to not admit students who are intolerant, increasing student and faculty diversity, and making diversity a central goal.

It's somewhat interesting that no one has pointed out that Williams is wrong, that doing all of those things would not end hate on campus and would likely increase it. (Decreasing diversity would tend to reduce hate but the effect of not admitting the intolerant is less clear because many of the current batch of "tolerant" are among the worse haters.)

Contrary to common practics, you don't necessarily get true statements by combining popular buzzwords.
10.29.2008 6:44pm
LogicalSC (mail):
What if one had belong to a church for 20 years which preached about the evils of "white greed" and that Jews ran the world and had killed the black Jesus, along with other anti-semetic raving?

Would that be considered "intolerant" enough to not be admitted?
10.29.2008 6:48pm
The General:
of course, he's not talking about all of the liberal intolerance that is spewed forth every day on every college campus across the country. this diversity bullshit is just another way for colleges and the commies that run them to exert mind control over the students. if they're not informed, they're liberal.
10.29.2008 6:50pm
John Link (mail):
Lotta tail-chasing here about the definition of tolerance, and who's to rule on the definitive definition, definitely.

Why not just enforce rules of civility and leave it at that?

No personal attacks, no shouting or shouting down, no threatening, no arguing "in bad faith". No resort to calling your opponent a racist, sexist, homophobe, breeder, fascist --- ditto, no faggot, commie, bulldyke, moonbat, leftard, etc.

That used to be the rule.

In other words enforce objective standards of behavior, rather than attempt to subjectively judge an internal state i.e. intolerance.
10.29.2008 7:06pm
whit:
Here's how tolerance work(ed) at my public university. I was on the board which chose which acts would get paid to come to campus and do their thing - music, speakers, etc.

When Angela Davis came up, there was no dissent based on her "intolerance". Specifically, I recall she essentially thinks all capitalists should be wiped from the face of the earth and pretty much buys the sontag'ish "white people are the cancer of society" line. But she was not disqualified for her "intolerance". Being intolerant of capitalists and white people is fine.

When Sam Kinison came up, he was deemed TOO intolerant to invite. I mean he makes fun of people - GAY PEOPLE, POOR PEOPLE, people who live in the desert in africa, etc.
10.29.2008 7:11pm
whit:

There is no reason to be tolerant to (unrepentant) murderers, etc.


or you could do what the (public) evergreen state college in WA did.

hire one as a commencement speaker...

who?

mumia of course.
10.29.2008 7:14pm
Pragmatist:
Why can't you just learn to tolerate my intolerance?
10.29.2008 7:20pm
bc (mail):
And when asked how one might screen for students who game the admissions process by acting tolerant when secretly being intolerant, the professor said,"Not to vorry, Vee hafe our vays"
10.29.2008 10:34pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
It seems likely that, absent any evidence about a particular individual, the only way to identify the intolerant in advance of matriculation would be by group identity.
Certain groups would be defined as intolerant, hence all members.
Problem is that at least one group which is famously intolerant has also managed to capture the coveted Accredited Victim status.
Now what?
10.29.2008 11:01pm
Hoosier:
Gregory Conen:

This goes to the rest of the "so doctors shouldn't see sick people?" comments, too. If you don't want colleges punishing beliefs, then they won't be changing beliefs. What colleges "cure" is ignorance, and they punish (by expulsion) persistent, willful ignorance, aka "failing all your classes". If colleges admit racists with the intent of changing them, racism will be punished.


Since that was my quote (borrowed from JC, my home boy) I'll respond: No, you don't punish people when you hope to change their minds. You discuss and debate with them when you try to change their minds. Why is that so complicated?

If I am actually committed to X, then I am going to welcome the opportunity to convince you of X. I may not succeed, but I sure as hell won't accomplish anything if I limit my contact to other X-ians. In that case, what I'm really doing is posturing.
10.29.2008 11:08pm
Hoosier:
Problem is that at least one group which is famously intolerant has also managed to capture the coveted Accredited Victim status.

Amen! Damned disabled lesbian Eskimos are ruining my life!
10.29.2008 11:11pm
geokstr:
Roux:

They protested of a post on a website?

If you followed a previous post about Canada's persecution of intolerance via its Orwellian "human rights commissions", you would have seen how this works there. The commission's own investigators hijacked a private party's IP address to avoid being identified, and under ficticious ID's, posted "hate" messages on websites they were investigating, and then used their own "hate" comments to prove the site was guilty of "hate" speech.

At the University of Delaware, they instituted a mandatory program to indoctrinate the students into "diversity", which is just a code word for leftist thought. After being made the subject of intense criticism for it, the university went through a short period of heavy spinning and obfuscation, changed the name of the program and continued on as usual.

Welcome to 1984.
10.29.2008 11:23pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Hoosier. Mine, too. But I try to ignore them. Problem is, they hate being ignored. Want to blow stuff up.
10.30.2008 9:08am
Mark Rockwell (mail):
This is the most absurd discussion I have had the displeasure of reading in quite some time.

Education is improved, most educated people seem to believe, when the educational environment consists of individuals with broadly diverse backgrounds. This diversity bonus is muted when there are individuals--sometimes as few as one or two--who are intolerant of the rest of the group, and vocally express their intolerance/bully the "different people" into being quiet. Obviously the "diverse" parties could fight back, but at that point the educational environment is shot.

So who is the "intolerant" person? Well, obviously--and as with anything, ever--the label could be abused. But an obvious and more-or-less workable answer is: intolerant people are those who not only deny the ultimate validity of all other views and lifestyles (as anyone with an opinion does), but who preclude discussion by denying the very potential that other's views are correct.

I, for example, do not believe that Islam is ultimately "correct." That will not preclude me under the professor's analysis. Why? Because I am willing to talk with a muslim about her beliefs and have an open discussion, letting them enjoy an equal amount of space to discuss and to learn. But I would be precluded if I wore a "muslims are terrorists" t-shirt to class and generally spouted off about how wrong she was on everything. The later behavior clearly interrupts with the learning environment by expressing and forcing intolerance. The former expresses an opinion, but does not in any way preclude education.

Sure, the t-shirt expresses a legitimate view (albeit a weak one). And, certainly, the makeup of the class will, in part, determine what is appropriate. But the rhetorical and inflammatory nature of the shirt serve only to disturb actual discussion. To some degree this is drawing a line in the sand. But I think most people can see the difference.

Everyone claiming that this proposal would be the final blow to the on-the-ropes group of white male Christians is clearly out of touch with reality.
10.30.2008 4:32pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Mark Rockwell. What about the current college atmosphere convinces you this will not be abused?

For that matter, can you define "abused".

Let's say, for example, that a Muslim kid shows up with a map of Israel on his tee shirt with a green crescent across it, or a circle with a bar across it.

Thing is, this is not going to go equally in all directions. Who gets tolerated and who doesn't depends on group identity. That's reality. The ideal will differ, but, then, it always does. That's why trying to peddle the ideal is a mug's game. Or, I should say, buying the ideal is.
10.30.2008 5:13pm
Randy R. (mail):
I think it is silly for clients to demand to know what sort of diversity a law firm has.

However -- some commentators here seem to believe that you can either have diversity in your legal team or competence. Did it ever occur to some people that you can have both? That a diverse legal team might also be the best team working for you?

And how do we define 'best'? Usually, it is the most experienced legal mind on staff. Given the No. 1 grad from Harvard vs. a lawyer with 20 years experience on an issue but graduated from a piddling school, I'll go with experience every time.

The problem is that at some law firms, they haven't really been doing much in hiring people of color or various other backgrounds. So these people end up not getting the experience they need to compete with the best. I would suggest that it is everyone's best interest to hire young lawyers from a broad background and then train them with experience. By having a diverse background, you have many different ways of looking at legal issues, and it's especially important if you are in litigation.

So -- I would enourage (but not require) law firms to hire with an eye towards diversity, and then train the young'uns. Over time, you will have both diversity and competence.

Now, of course, some will complain that I'm asking for law firms to hire people based on skin color or sexual orientation in place of the 'best' students. But again, 'best' is in the eye of the beholder. I do NOT agree that the best attorneys are only those who have the highest grades from the highest ranked law schools. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they are not.
10.30.2008 5:48pm
Randy R. (mail):
Oops. I posted the above thinking this was another thread. Apologies.
10.30.2008 5:50pm