[Philip Cook, guest-blogging, January 5, 2009 at 1:11pm] Trackbacks
An Insurrection and 2 Constitutional Amendments:

Thanks to Eugene Volokh for his invitation to guest blog on alcohol control policy.

There’s been little public debate or legislative action in this area for many years, despite the fact that alcohol abuse remains our most important drug problem. But that’s about to change. The governors of New York and California, among others, have called for an increase in alcohol excise taxes as part of their budget-balancing plans. The Amethyst Initiative to generate debate on the national minimum drinking age has been gathering steam. And the three-tier regulatory system for alcohol distribution is under attack in the courts.

I have selfish reasons to welcome this renewal of interest, since I’ve been doing research on alcohol control off and on for 30 years and just published a book on the subject (Paying the Tab, Princeton University Press). But surely any sensible account of the public interest when it comes to drug policy would put alcohol control high on the list of issues worthy of our attention.

Over the next few days I’ll attempt to make the case for raising alcohol excise tax rates. And just to prove that I’m not really a “neo-prohibitionist” (as the industry spokesmen like to label me) I’ll point out the reasons why I think the case for lowering the minimum drinking age is pretty strong.

Needless to say alcohol control and taxation have played a prominent role in US history. A distilled spirits tax was the first domestic revenue measure — enacted by Congress in 1791, it led to the Whiskey Insurrection and the subsequent assertion of federal authority by President Washington and Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton.

Between the Civil War and World War I, federal alcohol excise tax collections accounted for the bulk of internal revenues (as much as 80% in some years). This source became less important with the adoption of the 16th Amendment in 1913, which legalized the federal income tax. From a public-finance perspective, the 16th Amendment cleared the way for the 18th Amendment’s prohibition on the “manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors.”

After disillusion with that Noble Experiment arose (it didn’t take long), one of the leading proponents for repeal, Pierre S. DuPont (retired chairman of General Motors), recruited his fellow millionaires to the cause by reminding them that a legal alcohol industry would generate tax revenues, thereby displacing the need for the despised income taxes.

Last year was the 75th anniversary of Repeal. In 1933 there was a huge nationwide beer blast to celebrate the end of Prohibition, but the anniversary passed largely unnoticed. It should have gotten more attention. After all, the legacy of Prohibition is very much with us. Historian David Musto observed that “This ‘dreadful example’ is now so firmly established that it has become a maxim of popular culture, a paradigm of bad social policy, and a ritual invocation of opponents of a variety of sumptuary laws.”

Sure enough, Prohibition was a failure in the sense that it did not magically end drinking, and it engendered vast amounts of crime and corruption. But the modern interpretation of the Prohibition experience has gone well beyond those facts to a conclusion that “you can’t legislate morality” and that drinking in particular is somehow unaffected by the terms on which alcoholic beverages are sold in the marketplace.

A careful look at the actual Prohibition experience tends to refute that conclusion. During the 1920s alcohol of uncertain quality was available from shady sources at prices substantially higher than before the War. While there are of course no official statistics on alcohol consumption during that period, all the indicators suggest a substantial reduction in consumption and abuse – especially among working class folks.

Contemporaneous studies by economists Clark Warburton, Irving Fisher, and others made that case in convincing fashion. And when Martha Bensley Bruere conducted a survey of other social workers across the country for the National Federation of Settlements in the mid-1920s, she received reports indicating that most of the South and West had become quite dry, and that family problems associated with alcohol had fallen off considerably.

Newspaper reporters, providing the “first draft of history,” tended to miss this big-picture story. Then as now, they focused on the wealthy and glamorous, the Yale grads with their hip flasks, and often missed the bigger story that Prohibition was, in a sense, “working.”

Under the 21st Amendment, alcohol control was largely relegated to the states, although of course Congress reinstated excise taxes (but did not end the income tax!). The states had little experience with regulating commerce in alcohol. To provide them with guidance, John D. Rockefeller, Jr. commissioned a study by Raymond B. Fosdick and Albert L. Scott that produced an impressive piece of policy analysis called Toward Liquor Control.

It reviewed alternative control schemes from Europe and Canada, seeking a set of “rational” regulations that would supply “unstimulated demand” for alcohol without bringing back the corruption and abuse of the pre-War saloon era. Fosdick and Scott envisioned an era of experimentation by the “laboratory of the states” from which we would learn what worked.

To an extent, that promise has been realized. The states have gone their separate ways in regulating the supply chain, licensing retailers, setting excise taxes, and (until Congress intervened in 1984), setting the minimum drinking age. In the last 25 years, economists and epidemiologists have analyzed the results and learned a good deal about how alcohol control policy affects drinking and abuse.

So here’s the irony. The true lessons of the Great Experiment with Prohibition have been lost, the evidence hopelessly distorted in the retelling. (It was never much of an experiment anyway, since there was no natural control group.) But since Repeal the laboratory of the states has generated considerable data on the effects of supply control. The analysis of those data provide pretty good guidance to the questions that will be debated in 2009.

Tony Tutins (mail):
Along with the spirits tax, don't forget Lincoln's "temporary" dollar-a-barrel tax on beer to fund the Civil War.
1.5.2009 1:34pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):
Another piece of evidence that Prohibition did actually reduce alcohol consumption is what happened to cirrhosis of the liver death rates--falling by about 50% a few years after Prohibition went into effect, and gradually rising against after Prohibition ended. While there are other causes of cirrhosis of the liver, it is generally agreed that about 90% of such deaths are the result of prolonged alcohol abuse.
1.5.2009 1:43pm
DC:
Knowing nothing about this area, I'm wondering: is there any chance of seeing revisions to the system of regulations on the shipment of alcohol? I ask only because it strikes me as incredibly silly that I can direct my local beer shop to send a case to my dad in one state but not my brother in another. Or has this always been viewed as silly?
1.5.2009 1:48pm
Cornellian (mail):
The last line of the post ends in the middle of a sentence.
1.5.2009 1:52pm
Awesome-O:
I look forward to your posts on this topic. I wonder how much the popular myth of Prohibition - that it just made matters worse - has really been internalized. Regardless of whether the myth is true, I've always thought it odd that although "everyone knows" that Prohibition was a mistake, few people are willing to extend that conclusion to the War on Drugs, or at least parts of it.

Is the answer that, in fact, everyone doesn't believe the popular myth? Or do drugs seem different to most people, for reasons of various validity. I think it's the latter: people think that drugs are for hippies, minorities, layabouts, and violent criminals. Prohibition was bad, but drugs are different you see.

Just a guess.
1.5.2009 2:12pm
Roger Schlafly (www):
The drug legalization folks make analogies to Prohibition all the time. They argue that Prohibition didn't work, and that marijuana and cocaine are just the same as alcohol. Usually these arguments are given without any supporting facts.
1.5.2009 2:20pm
Tony Tutins (mail):

although "everyone knows" that Prohibition was a mistake, few people are willing to extend that conclusion to the War on Drugs


I forget the rule: Does one snort coke with fish, or inject smack with red meat, or is it the other way around? And is it true that there's nothing like the first puff of meth on a hot summer's day?
1.5.2009 2:26pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Is the answer that, in fact, everyone doesn't believe the popular myth? Or do drugs seem different to most people, for reasons of various validity. I think it's the latter: people think that drugs are for hippies, minorities, layabouts, and violent criminals. Prohibition was bad, but drugs are different you see.
For many years, I believed the libertarian arguments completely that Prohibition was a complete failure. The truth is a bit more complex. Prohibition corrupted many local and some state governments; turned organized crime into a national business; and made a lot of people into liars. But it did reduce alcohol consumption in many parts of America, with some positive benefits because of it. There are lessons to be learned from what worked and what didn't. Claiming that it was an utter failure, however, is inaccurate.

A lot of people recognize that alcohol causes substantial social costs, and are concerned that legalizing drugs that are similar to it (such as marijuana) has the potential to increase the social costs even more. It's hard to get the genie back into bottle, once a culture has built up around it.
1.5.2009 2:30pm
Aultimer:
There's anecdotal evidence(!) that Prohibition lowered alcohol consumption with a hand wave to "convincing" studies by Warburton, Fisher and "others" in support.

The post-Prohibition half-century of federalism that has been moot for a quarter-century gives us the data to make "pretty good guidance".

I'mm ready to be bowled over by the facts.
1.5.2009 2:39pm
Awesome-O:
I forget the rule: Does one snort coke with fish, or inject smack with red meat, or is it the other way around? And is it true that there's nothing like the first puff of meth on a hot summer's day?

I'm told that cannabis goes pretty well with Doritos and Mallomars.
1.5.2009 2:44pm
whit:

A lot of people recognize that alcohol causes substantial social costs, and are concerned that legalizing drugs that are similar to it (such as marijuana) has the potential to increase the social costs even more


i am FAR from a fan of mj. put simply, even if it was legal, i wouldn't smoke it... but...

marijuana is about as dissimilar from alcohol as two (recreational) drugs could ever be

1) alcohol has an LD50 value . mj doesn't. in this respect, mj is a very very safe drug. you can die from too much frigging WATER for pete's sake, but you can't have a lethal overdose of mj

2) alcohol is physically addictive. mj isn't. it's "habit forming" but anything you enjoy doing can be habit forming. even blogging

3) in many users, alcohol use is strongly correlated with increased aggression. MJ users are more likely to laff at dumb jokes and eat cheezy poofs.


etc.

again, i think mj is hella lame, but it has little in common with alcohol.
1.5.2009 2:45pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

i am FAR from a fan of mj. put simply, even if it was legal, i wouldn't smoke it... but...

marijuana is about as dissimilar from alcohol as two (recreational) drugs could ever be

1) alcohol has an LD50 value . mj doesn't. in this respect, mj is a very very safe drug. you can die from too much frigging WATER for pete's sake, but you can't have a lethal overdose of mj

2) alcohol is physically addictive. mj isn't. it's "habit forming" but anything you enjoy doing can be habit forming. even blogging

3) in many users, alcohol use is strongly correlated with increased aggression. MJ users are more likely to laff at dumb jokes and eat cheezy poofs.
The areas in which alcohol and marijuana have much in common are inhibition removal (which is why alcohol is a factor in not just crimes such as murder and rape, but many purely economic crimes such as robbery and burglary) and both increase risks of later development of schizophrenia. These are both substantial social costs.

While alcohol's toxicity is a concern, people that drink themselves to death (as opposed to WISHING that they had died) isn't one of the big social externality problems.
1.5.2009 2:50pm
Calderon:
As other have noted, the last paragraph seems to cut off in the middle.

To admit what others have, I'm not particularly familiar with this debate. But from what I've read the argument isn't that Prohibition did nothing to reduce alcohol consumption, but rather that the negative side effects of Prohibtion in terms of increased violent crime outweighed any benefits in the reduction of alcohol consumption. Modern day advocates of drug decriminalization often are willing to acknowledge that drug use may increase if they are legal, but that violent crime and incarceration rates will decrease and that the harmful effects of drugs will be easier to regulate. Now, increasing the taxes on alcohol some moderate amount probably won't lead to alcohol going over to the undergroudn economy, but at some point sufficiently high taxes will become more expensive than the cost of illegal sales to avoid those taxes.

A separate question is why do we want to discourage alcohol use? And a related question is the slippery slope one: if we decide we want to put extra taxes on alcohol to discourage drinking because we believe drinking has negative effects, why not also put extra taxes fattening foods, driving, building houses in the suburbs, televisions, playing contact sports, and so on and so forth.
1.5.2009 2:52pm
Pete Guither (mail) (www):
I love this prohibition revisionism -- the idea that just maybe if we find a better way to run it, prohibition will work -- even as we see mass failure in Mexico, Colombia, Afghanistan and the streets of our cities. Can anyone really say with a straight face that drug prohibition (with all of its corruption, violence, and black market profits) has reduced drug problems?

How many Al Capones are worth a reduction in liver cirrhosis? And isn't there a better way to reduce liver cirrhosis?

Switzerland has found an extraordinarily effective means of reducing the harm from heroin addiction, yet we ignore it and continue our ineffective prohibition efforts that actually end up killing more people (see heroin/fentanyl).

Prohibition is an awful flop.
We like it.
It can't stop what it's meant to stop.
We like it.
It's left a trail of graft and slime,
It don't prohibit worth a dime,
It's filled our land with vice and crime.
Nevertheless, we're for it.
1.5.2009 2:52pm
Awesome-O:
A lot of people recognize that alcohol causes substantial social costs, and are concerned that legalizing drugs that are similar to it (such as marijuana) has the potential to increase the social costs even more.

I really have to throw up my hands on this one. The cost/benefit analysis has so many factors that I can't believe anyone's analysis of the net benefits of marijuana legalization. The only thing I can be reasonably sure of is that the conclusion will match the researcher's preconceptions.

What pushes me towards legalization is the most commonly overlooked and indisputable fact about Prohibition: those who put it into effect and lived through it changed their minds, and quickly. It's hard enough to amend the Constitution; it's even harder to get most of the people who voted to amend it a decade before to admit that they were wrong.

The people who lived both with and without Prohibition prefer without. That's good enough for me.
1.5.2009 2:53pm
Awesome-O:
While alcohol's toxicity is a concern, people that drink themselves to death (as opposed to WISHING that they had died) isn't one of the big social externality problems.

Maybe death through acute alcohol poisoning isn't one of the big problems, but surely you admit that the long-term health effects of alcoholism - which include premature death - are. And if that's not one of alcohol's big social externality problems, then what is?
1.5.2009 2:56pm
Avatar (mail):
One points out that you'd expect a rise in prices to reduce consumption in economically-poor areas more than wealthy ones; certainly there was no income parity between the "West and South" and the rest of the nation in the '20s.

Additionally, to the extent that we're talking about a rural population, ordinary issues of physical distribution come into play. Sure, it's easier to hide stuff from the "revenooers", but it's a lot more difficult to run a speakeasy in the middle of a cornfield! So a lot of the alcohol that did get produced was for, er, private consumption, or at least wasn't being marketed, as it were.

The failure of Prohibition wasn't that it utterly failed to get anyone to drink less, but that it so de-legitimized the concept of legally-enforced temperance that the amendment to the Constitution was repealed a short time later. Come on, surely you have to acknowledge that nothing similar has ever happened in the history of the US.
1.5.2009 3:00pm
Awesome-O:
The areas in which alcohol and marijuana have much in common are inhibition removal (which is why alcohol is a factor in not just crimes such as murder and rape, but many purely economic crimes such as robbery and burglary)

You didn't finish this thought. Alcohol and marijuana are comparable in terms of inhibition removal? Really? Do you have any statistics on the frequency of marijuana-fueled murder, rape, robbery, and burglary?
1.5.2009 3:00pm
Sean O'Hara (mail) (www):

The governors of New York and California, among others, have called for an increase in alcohol excise taxes as part of their budget-balancing plans.


Who wants to bet that any increase in revenue from alcohol taxes would be offset by decreases in people buying lottery tickets?

As for the evidence that Prohibition decreased alcohol consumption -- so? The main argument against prohibition -- alcohol or drugs -- is that it's a cure worse than the disease: that it allows organized crime to increase its power within society; forces people to turn to questionable sources for their highs; creates a huge money sink for the government; and creates criminals where none existed before,
1.5.2009 3:09pm
whit:

The areas in which alcohol and marijuana have much in common are inhibition removal (which is why alcohol is a factor in not just crimes such as murder and rape, but many purely economic crimes such as robbery and burglary) and both increase risks of later development of schizophrenia. These are both substantial social costs.

While alcohol's toxicity is a concern, people that drink themselves to death (as opposed to WISHING that they had died) isn't one of the big social externality problems.


these are good points, except for the inhibition thang. refer to awesome-O's post.

the evidence is pretty clear that alcohol use/abuse simply sparks a LOT of aggression, and mj almost never does.

stereotypes are, to some extent true.

and as a cop, i'd WAY WAY WAY WAY rather deal with a stoner than a drunk.

i can also say i can't ever recall getting into a scrap with a stoner, whereas drunks are frequently lookin' for a fight.

again, correlation =/= causation, and an argument can be made that those who seek alcohol (vs. mj ) intoxication may be more prone to violence anyway, but i think 1 million points of data don't lie.

alcohol use/abuse is more strongly correlated with agression than MJ use.

also note that aggression is not necessarily bad. fighting forces and athletes often take drugs that increase aggression.

however...

a drug that simultaneously increases agression (at certain dosages) AND diminishes reasoning, judgment, and inhibitions, is a poor combination.
1.5.2009 3:13pm
Dan Hamilton:
New York is also talking about a tax on non-diet sodas.
The Taxes on fast foods, candy, cakes, cookies, etc are not far behind. They want to put these taxes in "For the good of the Children". BS. They just want the tax money. More SIN taxes.

BTW: What about people that decide to make their own ethenol fuel. Not drinking it but running their cars with it. Does the BATF come after the green people now? Wait until the Greens find out what the BATF is like. That will be fun.

The politicains want more tax money. Sodas, fast food, etc is just a way to sell the tax and give the Politicians more power.
1.5.2009 3:26pm
psychdoc (mail) (www):
Deaths from cirrhosis of the liver dropped about 80% during prohibition consistent with Professor Cook's account. Like in a party room in Jamaica, marijuana always wafts into these discussions. I regard marijuana as a more dangerous drug. It loosens the associations, weakens the defenses of the ego; it is psychotomimetic and poses a greater psychological danger to most people. Making it illegal is a public policy decision not necessarily determined by this fact/hypothesis however.
1.5.2009 3:38pm
meagain (mail):

I regard marijuana as a more dangerous drug. It loosens the associations, weakens the defenses of the ego; it is psychotomimetic and poses a greater psychological danger to most people.


Spoken like someone who's never partaken of the sweet leaf. Anyone who has used alcohol and marijuana can tell you alcohol is much, much worse.
1.5.2009 3:49pm
FWB (mail):
To be legitimate taxation must be used to generate revenue. Any use of taxation to reduce consumption is an improper and illegitimate use of the power to tax. There is a line or more to the point, a point, where the rate/revenue curve reaches a maximum. Above this point, the tax is abusive, violative of the contract We the People made with our public servants, and not a legitimate exercise of power.

May those who wish to do this "for the public good" be repaid by others exercising other controls "for the public good". The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. It is NOT anyone's business what one does to oneself. Anyone who wishes to impose his/her wishes on others through illegitimate government controls is a petty tyrant.
1.5.2009 3:51pm
Carolina:
I think there is a bit of a straw-man flavor to Prof. Cook's post. I don't know anyone, and have never talked to anyone, who claims prohibition was a total failure in the sense that it did not reduce alcohol consumption at all.

However, the cost of reducing things like cirrhosis of the liver was that prohibition helped some people by protecting them from themselves, at the expense of serious problems created for other, innocent, third parties.

In other words, pre-prohibition, alcohol was primarily a problem for the user and perhaps his close relatives. The user might die from cirrhosis, he might beat his wife or children, he might lose his job, etc. Post-prohibition, the rise of bootleggers and organized crime and the attendant enormous amounts of illicit money created both massive public corruption and engendered deadly violence.

So you save a few people from the consequences of their own acts, at the expense of innocents. That's not a bargain the government ought to be making, imho, regardless of whether the harm prevented on the user side of the scale was in some way measured to exceed the harm to the general public on the other side.
1.5.2009 3:58pm
Pete Guither (mail) (www):
I regard marijuana as a more dangerous drug. It loosens the associations, weakens the defenses of the ego; it is psychotomimetic and poses a greater psychological danger to most people.

Show me the bodies. Seriously. Marijuana has been used for centuries. It's use by a large portion of the population has been significant for decades. There's plenty of time for data. Show me the bodies of those who have died from using marijuana. Show me the huge statistics of deaths directly attributable to marijuana-smoking drivers. Show me the deaths attributable to health problems caused by marijuana (it's been proven not to cause cancer). Show me the people killed by out-of-control pot smokers. Show me the huge numbers of psychotic pot smokers (particularly after accounting for pre-disposition and self-medication).

Dangerous?

Sure, I suppose, if you're deathly afraid of people who listen to Pink Floyd and eat Cheetos.

But back on topic. Suppose marijuana is the scary dangerous drug that some wish it to be. How does that justify prohibition?

If drugs are really that dangerous, why would you want to cede the control of them to criminals?
1.5.2009 4:09pm
Working Man:
The casual defense of marijuana is frightening. Addiction is a problem, no matter what is being abused.

People are not born alcoholics. The propensity to be an addict seems to be chemical, and a genetic trait that can be passed. Alcoholics could have easily turned to sex, food, shopping, gambling, or even work. It's just that some things people are addicted too are okay, and others are not.

The wide held belief that MJ is "safer" than alcohol makes it potentially more dangerous. I've known too many who were willing to "light up" before work and while driving, but still understand that drinking alcohol before work or while driving is stupid and dangerous. The responsible drinking ads seem to be effective, and a similar responsible drug use campaign would be smart, but the current state of drug prohibition wont allow it.

Legalization before education seems reckless. If we dont have a very strong handle on alcohol addiction, then how can it make sense to throw another problem in the mix.

I am very curious what conclusions he comes to in his posts. I know the state distribution systems are near criminal monopolies, and in desperate need of reform, but higher taxes...blah. Any system where one person can have exclusive distribution rights in the state such as the Maloofs in New Mexico needs some attention.

I'm hoping he focuses on various policy approaches and less on taxing alcohol.
1.5.2009 4:11pm
Aultimer:

Awesome-O:

Maybe death through acute alcohol poisoning isn't one of the big problems, but surely you admit that the long-term health effects of alcoholism - which include premature death - are. And if that's not one of alcohol's big social externality problems, then what is?

Do we know that shortening your own life is a social externality?

I'd guess that the net loss of wages and net increase in health costs is well outweighed by the saving in social security and health costs associated with other causes of death.
1.5.2009 4:20pm
The Mojo Bison (mail) (www):
"Prohibition did [x]" and "Prohibition did not do [y]" arguments always need be taken with a grain of salt (if not a salted rim). Consumption did go down, but a good deal of that initially was the after-effects of the Great War, e.g., government use of the Lever Act to forcibly buy up grain (and crowd out brewers and distillers from the market), the statutory Prohibition around military bases significantly reducing alcohol sales, and government spin that alcoholic consumption was unpatriotic (beer = Huns).

I also think that we need to look more closely at alcohol consumption by region. The South and West exhibited significant declines in sales and consumption, but those areas were also hotbeds of "modern" Ku Klux Klan activity, and the Klan frequently proved to be as good an enforcer of Prohibition as any revenue agent (beer = Huns; alcohol = corrosive evil of modern city-oriented life). This went hand-in-hand with the rise of fundamentalism in many American Chirstian denominations (alcohol = evil). The Northern urban areas, much less influenced by the Klan/fundamentalist wave, were the first to rebound against Prohibition.

Even more significantly, by the end of the Twenties it was acknowledged that alcohol consumption was rising again in all regions, but especially the North. Al Smith was a "wet", remember? (It also helped cost him the general election.)
1.5.2009 4:21pm
Ming the Merciless Siamese Cat (mail):
It's none of your business how much I drink. It's none of my business how much you drink. If, in an alcoholic stupor, I violate other laws, prosecute me. Otherwise, piss off and mind your own business and I promise to do the same. If my drinking imposes other costs on society, then society is taking up obligations it ought not to.

I'd expand upon this, but I not that it's happy hour.
1.5.2009 4:22pm
Awesome-O:
Do we know that shortening your own life is a social externality?

I'm sure that if every retiree drank a lethal quantity of alcohol and died in the parking lot on the way to his car, we'd avoid some social costs.

The reality of alcohol abuse externalities is much darker, though: broken families, years of illness, lost productivity.
1.5.2009 4:31pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
I think raising excise tax rates makes sense, but there is one thing I will insist on first:

If George Washington can make whiskey, why cant without going through the FULL commercial ATF permit process? Sure, raise the excise tax, but also offer a reasonable permit for moonshiners (maybe $300/year, no extra building required, no bond required, no commercial sales allowed, basic testing equipment only required, etc).
1.5.2009 4:32pm
Aultimer:

Awesome-O:

The reality of alcohol abuse externalities is much darker, though: broken families, years of illness, lost productivity.

You said early death is the biggest social externality of alcohol abuse. It seems silly to say that doing things that lead to your own early death is a social externality. It may be an externality to taking a drink or 12. There are surely OTHER costs of alcohol abuse to society. However, killing yourself unintentionally isn't itself an unintended cost TO SOCIETY.
1.5.2009 4:47pm
some dude:
Teetotaler.
1.5.2009 4:49pm
Working Man:
Its called "fuel production" and you can do it pretty painlessly under 10,000 gallons a year.
1.5.2009 4:57pm
Toby:

both increase risks of later development of schizophrenia

Really? Or do those with a [familial or other] tendency towards schizophrenia self-medicate while their adult-onset symptoms develop...

I have a lot of problems coming up with a neural model that pulls together the synaptic profile of schizophrenia with that of either of these challenges, short of a dementia-level pickling which confounds most analysis...

But then, I have been out of that field for a while..
1.5.2009 5:08pm
Awesome-O:
You said early death is the biggest social externality of alcohol abuse.

No:

"Maybe death through acute alcohol poisoning isn't one of the big problems, but surely you admit that the long-term health effects of alcoholism - which include premature death - are. And if that's not one of alcohol's big social externality problems, then what is?"

I'll address the remainder of your point if you correct your misrepresentation.
1.5.2009 5:09pm
whit:

The casual defense of marijuana is frightening. Addiction is a problem, no matter what is being abused.



it is not casual. it is informed.
1) i don't smoke it
2) i think it sux
3) i have read the studies
4) i spent a very long time working undercover drug investigations

first of all, mj is NOT physically addictive. it's habit forming. anything you enjoy doing is "habit forming".

so, addiction is NOT a problem with mj, which distinguishes it from many other drugs, such as caffeine, heroin, alcohol, etc.

anybody who claims mj is benign and wonderful is an idiot

it's a drug with benefits and drawbacks, dangers, etc.

but the dangers are relatively small, and the cost to prohibit it is much more expensive.

decriminalize it and let's move on to real problems.

and let's tax the #$(#$(#$ out of it!!!
1.5.2009 5:19pm
Oren:

Another piece of evidence that Prohibition did actually reduce alcohol consumption is what happened to cirrhosis of the liver death rates--falling by about 50% a few years after Prohibition went into effect, and gradually rising against after Prohibition ended.

Clayton, can you provide a cite for that? I recall (dimly) reading that alcohol-related diseases increased during prohibition due to the poor quality control of moonshine but it's just as likely that I'm mistaken.
1.5.2009 5:22pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
My pov on marijuana legalization:

1) I don't use it (tried it a few times in college)
2) I don't intend to use it ever again unless I develop a medical need for it, regardless of legalization.
3) I have looked at the studies too.

I remain somewhat undecided regarding marijuana use. Certainly it is not addictive in the sense that caffeine or alcohol is. However, it poses some other problems.

Many people should NEVER, EVER use marijuana as it can cause a longer-term interference with life than, say, alcohol. For example, I know engineers who stopped using it after finding that their productivity would suffer for days after using it (short-term memory is very important in some fields). I would worry what would happen if someone designing nuclear reactor control systems was using it on his own time.

I suppose a partial legalization:
1) Allow medical research to be performed.
2) Legalize small quantity sales and purchases
3) Make use of it a criminal offence for people in certain professions.
4) Explicitly allow employers to prohibit marijuana use as a condition for employment, particularly where engineering of critical systems are at issue.

I also support legalizing moonshining, and legalizing growing small numbers of opium poppies, but that is another matter.
1.5.2009 5:41pm
Dan in Euroland (mail):
Oren,

Miron and Dills review some of the earlier work on cirrhosis and Prohbition here. (That is a PDF file.) They estimate that Prohibition decreased cirrhosis rates between 10-20%.
1.5.2009 5:45pm
Aultimer:

Awesome-O:
You said early death is the biggest social externality of alcohol abuse.

No:

"Maybe death through acute alcohol poisoning isn't one of the big problems, but surely you admit that the long-term health effects of alcoholism - which include premature death - are. And if that's not one of alcohol's big social externality problems, then what is?"

I'll address the remainder of your point if you correct your misrepresentation.

Consider it corrected - just being flip, not intending to misrepresent. So, how are health effects - including premature death - "big social externalities" and not either internalized costs or merely personal externalities?
1.5.2009 5:51pm
Pete Guither (mail) (www):
Arguments about whether a drug is bad, or should be avoided, are not arguments for or against prohibition.

Unless you can prove both:

1. that prohibition will significantly reduce problem use and
2. that the costs of prohibition won't be worse,

any argument that says:
X is bad; therefore X should be prohibited

is meaningless.
1.5.2009 5:55pm
Awesome-O:
So, how are health effects - including premature death - "big social externalities" and not either internalized costs or merely personal externalities?

I imagine that you're a serious person, so I don't think you'll try to argue that alcohol abuse doesn't have consume the judicial, penal, and law enforcement resources, harm families, absorb medical resources, and kill innocent pedestrians and motorists.

I'm not trying to argue by anecdote here, but it's hard to appreciate the damage that an alcoholic - or indeed an addict of any kind - can do to those around him until you've seen it. These aren't internalized costs. Perhaps in Libertarian Paradise we could force alcoholics to absorb the all costs of their behavior, but we don't live there.

Now you might say: "productivity losses aren't really externalities," and perhaps they aren't in the strictest sense. But if you want to use the classic example, okay, people who don't make themselves sick with alcohol tend to mow their lawns.

I'm not sure what you mean by "personal externalities." I've seen it used here and there, but I've never seen a precise definition. If it merely means that the externality is only felt by a small group, I don't see why their suffering doesn't count.

At this point, if you want to argue that these aren't "big" externalities, alrighty. Doesn't bother me much; I'm not trying to ban liquor. I'm just saying that alcohol addiction has social costs.
1.5.2009 6:11pm
Dr. T (mail) (www):
Roger Schlafly said:
The drug legalization folks make analogies to Prohibition all the time. They argue that Prohibition didn't work, and that marijuana and cocaine are just the same as alcohol. Usually these arguments are given without any supporting facts.
Drug warrior folks make all kinds of claims about the addictiveness of recreational drugs, the successes of recreational drug criminalization, and the expected horrors of a nation with legalized recreational drugs. Usually these arguments are given without any supporting facts and by ignoring facts that don't match their predetermined beliefs.

Here are uncomfortable truths:
In every human society a significant percentage of the population uses mind-altering chemicals. Alcohol is commonest, but a substantial variety of natural and semi-synthetic chemicals are used: marijuana, opium and its derivatives, cocaine and its amphetamine cousins, tranquilizers, mescaline, etc. This desire for mind-altering chemicals also exists among other mammals, as shown in experiments where the animals can choose to drink or eat water or food au naturale or with intoxicants.

Criminalizing the use of mind-altering chemicals increases total crime within a society, and especially increases violent crime as those who become suppliers of black market chemicals defend their turf.

The numbers of persons who become socially addicted (the use of the mind-altering chemical is so intense that the person cannot function normally in society) is not greatly increased by legalizing a mind-altering chemical. Many people won't use the chemical (legal or not), and most of those who do use it will do so responsibly and/or infrequently. Many mammals choose the intoxicant-laced water or food.

Government prohibition of mind-altering chemicals represents unneeded parentalization. A population that supports prohibition ends up getting much more of a nanny-state than it expected.
1.5.2009 6:44pm
whit:

and legalizing growing small numbers of opium poppies, but that is another matter.



don't quote me on this, but i am reasonably sure that growing opium poppies is perfectly legal. i don't recall where i read this, though. so do your own research :)

conversion/harvesting of the opium otoh...
1.5.2009 6:52pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
whit:

I did my own research. They are technically illegal (except the seeds, oddly enough) but the law is generally unenforced, in part because the plants are often grown as ornamentals.

FWIW, one year I did grow my own opium poppies. I never made raw opium but I did take the seedheads and steep in brandy....
1.5.2009 7:36pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Whit:
If you are wondering about legalities of opium poppy growing, see:The Controlled Substances Act

Opium poppy seeds are legal. The rest of the plant is not.
1.5.2009 7:42pm
ArthurKirkland:
Persuasive evidence indicates that moderate consumption of alcohol is more healthful than abstinence -- those who consume one or two drinks daily live longer and are healthier than those who avoid alcohol. This point seems relevant to most arguments advanced in this thread, yet (unless I missed it) has been mentioned in none.

The health benefits of alcohol distinguish alcohol from tobacco and some other intoxicants. They complicate the cirrhosis argument.

Alcohol abuse corrodes the drinker's body and his social vicinity. Minors and alcohol don't mix well, particularly when motors are involved. These and similar circumstances, in my judgment, incline substantial regulation but not prohibition.
1.5.2009 9:09pm
whit:
ein, thanks for the info...
1.5.2009 9:20pm
DeezRightWingNutz:
People talk about social costs, but what about the benefits, like screwing up the courage to talk to women, or allowing you to relax after putting the screaming kids to bed, or making it possible to get through Thanksgiving with the in-laws?
1.5.2009 10:03pm
DeezRightWingNutz:
Me drinking myself to death isn't an externality (or, at least, it's a stretch). Me drinking you to death is an externality (I'll leave as an exercise for the reader to determine whether it's positive or negative).
1.5.2009 10:07pm
Tom Tildrum:
Cirrhosis deaths have been dropping consistently since about 1970, and are now nearly at the levels that they were during Prohibition. If cirrhosis deaths are to be taken as a proxy for alcohol abuse, we seem to be having great success under our current system, without having to impose any new form of Prohibition.
1.5.2009 10:52pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
whit:

After several rounds of further reading, it looks like growing opium poppies is in fact legal, however, if you cut one and put it in a vase on your kitchen table, you are guilty of drug possession :-P
1.5.2009 11:48pm
Clayton E. Cramer (mail) (www):

Cirrhosis deaths have been dropping consistently since about 1970, and are now nearly at the levels that they were during Prohibition. If cirrhosis deaths are to be taken as a proxy for alcohol abuse, we seem to be having great success under our current system, without having to impose any new form of Prohibition.
Suggestion: there may have been other changes to our medical system since 1970 that are playing some part.
1.6.2009 12:04am
Oren:

This desire for mind-altering chemicals also exists among other mammals, as shown in experiments where the animals can choose to drink or eat water or food au naturale or with intoxicants.

Cite please?
1.6.2009 5:38am
Sarcastro (www):
[I had heard about animal alcoholics too. Here's what a google search found. According to that artivle, at least, it seems to be something of a myth:


Dr. Milton said she also asked the primatologists whether their species had been observed to prefer more fermented, and therefore more alcohol-rich fruit, but they could produce no examples.
]
1.6.2009 8:49am
Carl the EconGuy (mail):
WHEN ALCOHOL IS OUTLAWED, ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE ALCOHOL.

That's pretty obvious, but there are two other points worth considering. First, that the externality argument, and the implied cost/benefit allusion, is always empirically skewed in favor of regulation. The reason is that the costs, in illnesses and violence, etc., are relatively easy to quantify. But alcohol also has huge positive externalities. It facilitates good company, raises good spirits, increases the enjoyment of good food and football games, leads to better contacts between the sexes(even consensual and mutually enjoyable fornication, on occasion), and is an integral part of Holy Communion. Alcohol, unlike marijuana, is an integral, deeply embedded element of our social fabric, for the enjoyment and benefit of the vast majority of the population -- even those who don't drink benefit from the increased happiness of those who do. There are no quantifiable metrics of all these positive social benefits. Hence, the calculus in favor of taxation/controls will always be skewed against markets and individual choice.

Second, the best way to find out the total social cost/benefit ratio is to submit the issue to an informed collective choice. But, if you've studied your public choice theory carefully, you'll know that we can't trust politicians to make an informed decision on this, on the sole merits of the case, because they will always think of side issues, such as the total revenue effects or their own constituents' special interests, and what have you. The only way to get it right is to have a plebiscite, after an informed discussion of the measurable social costs, and then leave it up to people to decide.

But that's not the way most people want to proceed, because they don't trust the public and know proposals for controls would lose in any referendum. It's always viewed as the right of our only domestic criminal class, i.e., Twain's politicians, to make the decision for us. And that will *always* lead us astray -- no Pareto optimality to be had there, I'm afraid.

So, taxation and control of alcohol consumption should be treated as a political issue, first and foremost. And both substance and process (plebiscite v. statutes/regulations) are equally relevant for getting this right -- as for most social welfare issues. This is not an issue to be decided by social engineers.
1.6.2009 9:58am
Ryan Waxx (mail):
I love this prohibition revisionism -- the idea that just maybe if we find a better way to run it, prohibition will work


Excuse me, but isn't the point of this post that the commonly accepted story about prohibition is the revisionism? Revising the story to include more truth and less fable should be something everyone supports... except those who are married to the fables.
1.6.2009 10:39am
Tony Tutins (mail):
Those drawing comparisons between alcoholic Prohibition and marijuana prohibition should consider that householders were allowed to have pressed "cider and other fruit juices" even if the resultant beverage exceeded one-half of one percent alcohol, as long as it was for consumption solely within the home. New York Times 25 July 1920

The 200 gallon home winemaking allowance -- originally requiring the householder to obtain a permit from the Treasury -- stems from this.

A comparable marijuana prohibition would include a low cost federal permit to grow, say, ten plants a year, with consumption to take place wholly within the licensed home.
1.6.2009 11:10am
whit:

After several rounds of further reading, it looks like growing opium poppies is in fact legal, however, if you cut one and put it in a vase on your kitchen table, you are guilty of drug possession :-P



aha!

i *was* correct. notify the presses.

there's a fair bit on this subject on all the doper sites (which i used to read regularly).

erowid.com is a good place btw
1.6.2009 11:26am
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Tony Tutins:

The 200 gallon home winemaking allowance -- originally requiring the householder to obtain a permit from the Treasury -- stems from this.


You missed the IRS's response, saying that 200 gallons was for non-intoxicating beverages only. Not sure I get their logic....
1.6.2009 1:42pm
Wayne Conrad (mail):
I'm willing to trade a lot of livers, brains or any other of other peoples' body parts for my safety and civil liberties. Until we started this "war on drugs" no-knock entries were not a common practice (they started, as I recall, to deny the suspect time to flush the drugs down the toilet). Nor did so many common thugs seem to have the incentive to engage in such a corrosive criminal enterprise.

It's not about how much harm a prohibited substance does to a person. It's about how much harm prohibition does to us.
1.6.2009 5:44pm
Tony Tutins (mail):

You missed the IRS's response, saying that 200 gallons was for non-intoxicating beverages only. Not sure I get their logic....

The householder had no control over what happened to the juice once it was pressed. If God wanted to ferment the juice, who are we mere humans to prevent it? Cf. the Wedding Feast at Cana.
1.6.2009 7:12pm
wooga:

although "everyone knows" that Prohibition was a mistake, few people are willing to extend that conclusion to the War on Drugs

I forget the rule: Does one snort coke with fish, or inject smack with red meat, or is it the other way around? And is it true that there's nothing like the first puff of meth on a hot summer's day?

Don't forget the ecstasy tabs taken during Communion. Man, that Jesus sure knew how to party!
1.6.2009 8:28pm

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