Are Palestinian Lives Worth as Much as Israeli Lives?

That's the question that some opponents of Israeli military action are asking defenders of this action. In fact, I've been asked this question directly more than once. The idea, obviously, is that given that the number of Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel exceeds the number of Israeli noncombatants at immediate risk from Hamas rockets, to defend Israeli military action one must logically believe that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian lives.

The easy response to this is to argue that there will never be peace between the Palestinians and Israel so long as Hamas, with its fanatical anti-Israel views and violent agenda, is allowed to act unmolested in Gaza. In the long-run, by creating the conditions for peace or at least quiet, the number of noncombatants saved in both Israel and Gaza by current Israeli military action will dwarf the short-term costs.

But that's the easy way out. Let's tackle the harder question, of whether Israel is required to, or even should, treat Palestinian noncombatants as equally valuable to its own noncombatant citizens. Let's say, for example, that the Israeli government's best guess is that military action will cost the lives of 1,000 Gazan civilians, but save the lives of 400 Israelis. (And let's assume arguendo that Hamas and not Israel is the "aggressor," so we can take off the table the argument that Israel doesn't have ANY right to engage in a military response.)

We have to start, I think, with a broader question. Are governments, in general, expected to act as if individuals who are outside their jurisdiction are "equally valuable" to their own citizens? The answer is clearly no. In practice, no government acts this way. Governments provide military protection, police protection, a justice system, food, shelter, medical care, etc., to their own citizens, especially poor citizens, and give little to the citizens of other countries, even when those citizens are far worse off on average. The most "Progressive" countries in the world, the Scandinavians, devote something like 2% of their budgets to their total foreign aid budgets to help billions of poor around the world, a figure obviously dwarfed by the money spent on helping their own small, well-to-do populations. Children are starving in Sudan and Bangladesh so an elderly Norwegian can enjoy a rejuvenating week at the spa paid for by his government! Aren't Sudanese and Bangladeshi lives worth more than the temporary comfort of a retired Norwegian?

Relatedly, no country in the world has open borders. The blessings of American citizenship, for example, are available only to a select few hundred million, and the rest of the world is treated as if they are "less valuable" by our government.

This goes to the basic heart of the implicit social contract between government and its citizens in a democratic society. The citizens pay taxes and obey government dictates, and in return the government fulfills its obligations to them. Protection from foreign enemies is among the most basic functions of government. Any government that fails to engage in such protection because it believes that noncombatants on the other side are equally valuable to its own noncombatants would be violating that social contract, as well as acting contrary to the actions of every government in human history.

In protecting its own citizens, a government still should take moral considerations into account. That's the point of conventions and treaties on war, treatment of prisoners, etc. But even under the most generous interpretations of international law, there is no such established principle as the critics of Israel are asserting. Indeed, the establishment of such a principle would not only prevent states from engaging in the expected defense of their citizens, it would undermine the entire concept of the nation-state, which is premised on the idea that nations have fundamental duties to their own citizens that do not extend to citizens of other states. One can argue that the whole idea of nation-states is misbegotten and immoral, and in my libertarian heart and mind I tend to agree. But that's not the world we live in, and, even if that's one's preferred world, there is no particular reason to expect Israel to be the first and only nation-state to abdicate its sovereign responsibilities. Put another way, the Scandinavians could justly criticize Israel for not having "proportionate" civilian casualties as soon as they establish an open immigration policy for residents of impoverished Third World nations.

In the absence of relevant treaties, exactly where the moral line should be drawn in causing noncombatant civilans casualties in protecting a country's own citizens is a very interesting question, one that was debated on this blog back in 2006 (I can't find the link right now). I don't remember coming to any firm conclusion then, but I'm quite sure the answer isn't that the ratio has to be one to one.

So yes, as a matter of abstract morality, Israeli lives are worth the same as Palestinian lives which are worth the same as Iranian lives which are worth the same as Mexican lives and so forth and so on. But that question obfuscates more than it illuminates. The real question is, is it either realistic or even desireable to expect nation-states to act as if their own citizens' lives are no more valuable than the lives of citizens of other countries. If the answer to both questions is yes, the argument of Israel's critics is really an argument to abolish the nation-state as it currently exists, which makes the argument rather superfluous to the specifics of the fighting in Gaza.

AntonK (mail):

Speaking at a press conference alongside European foreign ministers in Jerusalem, Tzipi Livni vowed that Israel would "change the equation in the region," saying that the days of "Hamas firing rockets and Israel showing restraint" were over.

"When Israel is targeted it will retaliate," she said
.
Good for her, good for Israel, good for the Middle East, and good for humanity.
1.5.2009 1:22pm
Mike 'Ralph' Smith:

(And let's assume arguendo that Hamas and not Israel is not the "aggressor," so we can take off the table the argument that Israel doesn't have ANY right to engage in a military response.)


I think you have an extra "not" in there.
1.5.2009 1:23pm
Latinist:
All fair enough; but this different weighting of one's own citizens lives ought to be (no?) a source of conflict between Israel and its allies. That is, the US should not think of Israelis as more valuable than Palestinians (or Mexicans or Swedes or whatever). So, if everybody's behaving properly, we shouldn't be surprised to find the US pressuring Israel to take less aggressive action against Palestinians.
1.5.2009 1:24pm
Hey Skipper (mail) (www):

Are Palestinian Lives Worth as Much as Israeli Lives?


To answer the question, you have to ask it properly. That is, one must ask that question not only of Israel, but also Hamas.

They could have easily foreseen, and may well have intended, that their continued rocket attacks on Israel would lead to just this end.

So, one must ask them: how much to you, as Palestinians, value Palestinian lives?
1.5.2009 1:26pm
Mike 'Ralph' Smith:
Seems like it is fair to say that Israel should not value the lives of Palestinians as much as it values the lives of its own citizens, as an abstract concept. But, this doesn't address whether other countries should value the lives of Israelis more than Palestinians.
1.5.2009 1:31pm
matthewccr (mail):
Oh, lovely: we've found an answer that permits anything. At least, 'in the world we live in.'
1.5.2009 1:32pm
A.C.:
Cosmically speaking, all lives are worth the same. The question is, who is responsible for enforcing that notion when the leadership of a given people does not see fit to do so? This is a much broader problem than the mideast conflict. It's playing out in Zimbabwe even now.
1.5.2009 1:35pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Latinist and Ralph: The U.S. and others could logically demand that Israel treat Palestinians as being equally valuable to Israelis only if the U.S. and others are willing to live by the same principle when applied to their own foreign and domestic policies,which they emphatically are not.
1.5.2009 1:37pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Oh, lovely: we've found an answer that permits anything. At least, 'in the world we live in.'
Matthew, in practice, do you treat the well-being of your own family as no more or less important than the wellbeing of strangers? Would you support extending America's welfare state to the entire world? The idea that one's obligations to others depends on one's relationship to them is not exactly unique to wartime scenarios.
1.5.2009 1:39pm
Hardy Harhar:
I'm not sure what moral system requires that all lives be valued equally. Obviously, to me, the lives of my immediate family are far more valuable than anyone else's life. Why would we demand that a government not show similar allegiances? Why should a government be impartial? Don't be PC on this issue, Prof. Bernstein, there's no need for it.
1.5.2009 1:41pm
Houston Lawyer:
If your own government doesn't value your life and is willing to have you killed solely for propaganda value, how should a foreign government give it value?

If a government doesn't value the lives of its own citizens higher than those of its enemies, it won't exist for long.
1.5.2009 1:43pm
ed (mail) (www):
Hmmmm

Frankly this is a really silly question.

You attack a country, you take your chances.

The whole "proportional response" nonsense is utter bullshit and reflective of people who simply cannot be taken seriously.
1.5.2009 1:49pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
For some, the relevant question is whether Jewish lives are worth anything at all.
The logical end of the tactics and strategies demanded by some of Israel is the destruction of Israel and the death or displacement of its citizens.
1.5.2009 1:49pm
ck:
The comparison with government spending is intriguing, but something about it feels wrong. Is a difference in welfare spending on citizens/foreigners really the same as the difference between killing citizens/foreigners? I spend more on my kids than I give to charity, but I assume that I have an equal moral obligation to avoid killing strangers as I do to avoid killing my children (accidentally or otherwise). Perhaps this is analogous to the difference between positive and negative rights.

Also, a premise of your post is that Palestinians are not Israeli nationals (in moral terms, not legal ones). Since they do not have their own state, and Israel has de facto military control over their territory, one might argue that they are more properly thought of as a rebellious population as opposed to a foreign one. I am not sure what to think about that myself.
1.5.2009 1:52pm
Steve H:

Seems like it is fair to say that Israel should not value the lives of Palestinians as much as it values the lives of its own citizens, as an abstract concept. But, this doesn't address whether other countries should value the lives of Israelis more than Palestinians.


I think this is an excellent point.

Moreover, Professor Bernstein, I believe your post is addressing a straw man, as I do not think that anyone here is claiming that the Israeli government must follow a one-to-one correspondence. Rather, I have seen (and made) the must easier argument that it is wrong to kill hundreds to save handfuls. A one-to-one correspondence would be a much harder position to defend, but at this point it is not pertinent.

Also, I do not think the analogy to immigration is really fair, because AFAIK, legal and moral analysis recognizes a difference between letting bad things happen to other people and causing bad things to happen to other people.

For example, while I am not legally obligated to feed other people's kids, even if I feed my own, as a legal matter I am not allowed to kill those other kids.

And while I may or may not be morally obligated to feed people's kids, depending on the situation, I believe I am morally forbidden to kill them, too. Unless there is a strong justification.

Obviously, there can be gray areas, but I think those principles are pretty widely accepted.

As far as I can tell, the moral argument against Israel's recent bombardment of Gazans is not simply that Israel is morally obligated to help Gazans. (That argument is frequently made, but mostly in the context of Israel's choice to occupy Gaza and/or prevent Gazans from sovereignty.) Rather, the moral argument is that Israel is morally obligated to refrain from killing them, at least without good justification -- and in my book, a threat amounting to a single car accident's worth of Israeli victims per year may not be sufficient justification for killing hundreds of Gazans.
1.5.2009 1:52pm
Ariel:
When there is a prisoner exchange, Israel often gives hundreds of prisoners for one live person or maybe dead bodies. So it seems that Palestinians (or Arabs in general) believe that their lives are worth less than Israelis believe their lives (or dead bodies) are worth. We don't need to take a stab in the dark here - we have the objective indicia of what they negotiate.
1.5.2009 1:53pm
Steve H:
In other words, what ck said.

Grrrr.
1.5.2009 1:53pm
Loren Heal (mail) (www):
Not only are foreign citizens not as valuable as a nation's own citizens, but a nation values its own military lives less than its civilians. It may at times value its military lives less than foreign civilians, for instance when safeguarding foreign civilians with rules of engagement putting its military lives at risk.
1.5.2009 1:56pm
frankcross (mail):
David, I'm with you except for this

Latinist and Ralph: The U.S. and others could logically demand that Israel treat Palestinians as being equally valuable to Israelis only if the U.S. and others are willing to live by the same principle when applied to their own foreign and domestic policies,which they emphatically are not.

I think the true analogy would be: Is the US prepared to live by the principle that other nations would treat domestic and foreign lives equally, when the US does not do so for itself? That's the parallel, and I think the US could live with that.

I think all this obscures the key issue, however, which is that Hamas bears responsibility for civilian lives lost in Gaza. They were the cause of the Israeli strike, which never would have happened with a ceasefire. They put Israel in a situation where, to protect its own civilians, Israel had to kill Palestinians. The lost lives are truly at the feet of Hamas.
1.5.2009 1:57pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
as I do not think that anyone here is claiming that the Israeli government must follow a one-to-one correspondence.
I'm not sure how else to interpret a claim that Israel should value the lives of foreign citizens as much as its own, an argument made by no less a personage as Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch, among others.
1.5.2009 1:59pm
Steve H:
You attackoccupy and subjugate a countrypeople, you take your chances.


Just pointing out that this principle can be used both ways.
1.5.2009 2:00pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
I think the true analogy would be: Is the US prepared to live by the principle that other nations would treat domestic and foreign lives equally, when the US does not do so for itself? That's the parallel, and I think the US could live with that.
Well, sure the U.S. could live with that, because it imposes no burdens on itself, but I don't see by what logical/nonhypocritical principle the U.S. should be exempt from what Israel's critics seem to think is a universal moral principle. But you've raised a rather important point. Many governments around the world are happy to try to impose on Israel standards they would never adhere to themselves.
1.5.2009 2:02pm
Latinist:
Latinist and Ralph: The U.S. and others could logically demand that Israel treat Palestinians as being equally valuable to Israelis only if the U.S. and others are willing to live by the same principle when applied to their own foreign and domestic policies,which they emphatically are not.


I don't think this is right. If Israel is putting an understandably high value on its own citizens, then the US shouldn't blame it, I guess, and we shouldn't go around saying that they're a bunch of callous racist so-and-sos. But if the US is supporting Israel in various ways, why shouldn't it ask in return for what the US (and not Israel) wants? You seem to be saying that the US can only demand of Israel things that Israel would want to do anyway, which seems silly to me. What are demands for, then?

And I'm not saying that the US should demand that Israel act by certain universal principles all the time; just that the US should demand, in particular cases, that Israel do what the US wants, and that the US should want things without placing a special value on Israelis as opposed to Palestinians.
1.5.2009 2:04pm
Steve H:

I'm not sure how else to interpret a claim that Israel should value the lives of foreign citizens as much as its own, an argument made by no less a personage as Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch, among others.



That does sound like a one-to-one argument. Do you have a link, so we could see the context of the argument?
1.5.2009 2:07pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Roth: To comply not just morality but international law [sic], Israel must treat "Lebanese civilians as human beings whose lives are as valuable as Israelis'."
1.5.2009 2:11pm
Abandon:
I don't like the question in this particular formulation. I'd prefer to read: Which casualties, if any, are necessary?

Considering today's rockets sent by the Hamas over Israeli territory could escalate, perhaps even fathering tomorrow's wmds hitting Israeli civilians, one could argue the actual military intervention to be a necessity in order to prevent a greater death toll in a near future. In addition to the fact - as mentioned by another commentor - the low considerations the other side (Hamas) seems to have for for at least the Palestinian civilians they are hiding behind, we can easily come to the conclusion the military operation could lead, on the long run, to saving Palestinian lives as well. The actual victims being the unfortunate price to pay for pacification to be achieved. But there are many 'if's, of course.

This being said, I find the Israeli army/government to be directly responsible for the Palestinian casualties. The same cannot be said about Scandinavian responsibility when it comes to Darfur's victims. Your assertion in that matter is utterly over the top, we need not to explain why direct and indirect causations should not be addressed similarly.
1.5.2009 2:12pm
Steve H:

Roth: To comply not just morality but international law [sic], Israel must treat "Lebanese civilians as human beings whose lives are as valuable as Israelis'."


Thanks. (Fortunately for me, I said no one here was advocating such a position ...)
1.5.2009 2:14pm
Latinist:
By the way, I note that this post is already at 27 comments, and the previous, longer, guest post is still at 5. Really, for the sake of good hospitality, you guys ought to institute a rule about not following guest posts with ones about Israel or abortion.
1.5.2009 2:17pm
Ben P:

Roth: To comply not just morality but international law [sic], Israel must treat "Lebanese civilians as human beings whose lives are as valuable as Israelis'."


I can see the inference being drawn, but I'm not sure it's exactly the same.


But giving warning, as required by international humanitarian law, does not relieve the attacker of the duty to distinguish between civilians and combatants and to target only combatants.


That's quite a bit different than the straight up assertion that he was arguing that Israel should give the same value to a Lebanese life as a Israeli life.


SO HOW SHOULD the IDF fight such a war? By complying with international humanitarian law. That means not treating southern Lebanon as a free-fire zone. It means attacking civilian structures and vehicles only if there is evidence that Hizbullah is actually using them. Even then, it means making serious efforts to determine whether civilian structures and vehicles contain civilians, and attacking only if the definite military advantage is so powerful that it justifies their deaths.


Even if he had a point, I think he kind of destroys it there. How are you going to judge "serious efforts" in the context of any war, much less a war that is in such close proximity to civillian populations.

He borders on implying that Israel targeted the house in question maliciously, It's much more likely that even if Hezbollah had never used the house, Israel just had a failure of intelligence and believed the house was a target. I seriously doubt such a mistake counts as a war crime even if people die.
1.5.2009 2:19pm
Ariel:
This being said, I find the Israeli army/government to be directly responsible for the Palestinian casualties.

That's interesting, but under international law, combatants are supposed to be segregated from non-combatants. The fact that Hamas combatants are not segregated places the blame on them, under international law.
1.5.2009 2:22pm
dave zimmerman (mail):
"Let's say, for example, that the Israeli government's best guess is that military action will cost the lives of 1,000 Gazan civilians, but save the lives of 400 Israelis."

How long does anyone think it will take the Palestinians to kill 400 Israelis? At the current rate? Four Israeli casualties during the period of the Israeli bombardment versus how many Palestinians?

Has the concept of "For every one of us, a hundred of you" become acceptable?
1.5.2009 2:25pm
Ben P:

Has the concept of "For every one of us, a hundred of you" become acceptable?


I think it's beside the point.

Israel isn't *deliberately* killing 100 Gazan civillians to save 1 Israeli civillian, they're (I'm assuming here, but I think it's safe) Hamas military targets that incidentally or deliberately are within populated civillian areas.

If you're targeting a military target in a civilian area, the question is whether the military target is worth the cost taking out, not how many civillians will die in the process.

If killing many civillians has a large negative cost, it may not be worth it, but in many cases it may be.
1.5.2009 2:29pm
Awesome-O:
I assume that I have an equal moral obligation to avoid killing strangers as I do to avoid killing my children (accidentally or otherwise).

You have a duty to provide care for your kids so that they don't die. You have fewer obligations to children that are not yours.

But you are of course correct that you have the same duty to avoid actively killing children, whether or not they're yours.
1.5.2009 2:39pm
Mike 'Ralph' Smith:
@ Ariel, there is a requirement not to use civilians as a human shield, but this is much more limited than your assertion that combatants must be segregated from non-combatants. Regardless, if one party commits a war crime, it does not absolve the other side from any war crimes that it may commit.
1.5.2009 2:44pm
Steve H:

Israel isn't *deliberately* killing 100 Gazan civillians to save 1 Israeli civillian, they're (I'm assuming here, but I think it's safe) Hamas military targets that incidentally or deliberately are within populated civillian areas.


I think this is a dodge. Israel (presumably) thought long and hard ahead of time about its planned bombardment and invasion, knew that civilians would die even if Israel took steps to minimize such deaths, and went ahead anyway. That's deliberate killing.

I will agree that both for moral and political reasons, Israel likely does not desire Gazan civilian deaths (while the the Hamasmen firing rockets do desire Israeli civilian deaths). But to me, whether an accepted-but-regretted killing is morally better than a desired one depends on the purpose for taking the actions that inexorably lead to the killings. Which gets us right back to counting the bodies on both sides.
1.5.2009 2:45pm
tvk:
I don't think you are asking the right question. The way you frame it, the question is whether the Israeli government has any legitimate moral grounds for its actions. This is a fairly Israeli-centric view. From this point of view, Israel is being attacked, it is responding to protect its citizens, it is not engaging in indiscriminate murder while doing so, end of story.

But this type of logic merely comforts the mind--it doesn't get us anywhere. This is because while the Israeli-centric point of view is a perfectly legitimate point of view, it is not the only legitimate point of view. The Palestinians have their own point of view.

For example, the Palestinian point of view may well be that a Palestinian life is worth just as much as an Israeli life. You concede that this is a legitimate moral proposition; the refutation is simply that the Israeli government can hardly be expected to follow through on the logical consequences of the proposition. If so, how can you expect the Palestinians and Hamas to follow through on the logical consequences of the Israeli point of view?
1.5.2009 2:51pm
Stacy McMahon (mail):
In a backhanded way, Hamas may be indicating a belief that Israel values "Gazan" lives as much as Israeli lives. If Israel were indeed willing to kill tens or hundreds of Palestinians just to get at a missile hidden under a house, there would be no real point in going to the trouble of making all those human shields.

And yes, there's still PR value to dead civilians, but in that would be rolled up into whether Israel values Palestinian lives. There's little objective difference between valuing lives for their own sake, or because failing to value them brings undesirable consequences.
1.5.2009 2:53pm
dave zimmerman (mail):
In a space as confined as the Gaza strip, how can one expect milltary targets to be conveniently segregated?

The US Army has had rapid reaction counter-battery technology capability for thirty years. It involves radar and artillery working in tandem. IDF has the technology, based on sensors and rockets, to defend its tanks against RPGs (both faster and closer, hence shorter reaction time)than what the Palestinians use to devastate Israel. From what I have seen of the bottle rockets used by the Palestinians, the IDF could defend Israel if they just would take up skeet shooting as a hobby - assuming that they are not just seeking casus belli.

Too expensive? It depends on what currency you want to spend.
1.5.2009 2:56pm
Greg Q (mail) (www):
Are Palestinian Lives Worth as Much as Israeli Lives?

Hell no. The lives of terrorism supporters aren't worth anything at all. The lives of decent human beings are worth something.

If you live in a building where Hamas is storing weapons, or from which Hamas hsa launched attacks, are you a legitimate and valid military target. If you are part of a demonstration supporting Hamas'es indiscriminate attacks on civilians, you are a terrorist, and a legitimate target.

If you attack any Hamas member who tries to violate the Laws of War near you, then are aren't a legitimate target for the Israeli military. If you don't try to stop Hamas from violating the Laws of War near you, and you get killed in an Israeli attack, you deserve it, because you are an accessory to those violations of the Laws of War.

In short: If you want to be treated as an innocent civilian, you have to actually be an innocent civilian. No person who has sat back and watched as Hamas violates the Laws of War is an innocent civilian. They are, in fact, legitimate targets.

What's that, you say? Hamas will kill them if they object to Hamas'es terrorist attacks? Do tell. So, when is that last time you protested against the way Hamas treats Palestinians who don't want to be made accessories to its terroristic actions? You haven't? Then you have no legitimacy with which to complain about any Israeli actions against Palestinian "civilians".
1.5.2009 3:11pm
frankcross (mail):
tvk, I don't think people are asking Palestinians to adopt an Israeli-centric point of view.

People are asking Palestinians not to launch occasionally deadly attacks on Israel. That's not a complex request, nor one that is difficult to comply with. But the failure to comply brings these consequences. Hamas knows it could save all these Palestinian lives but chooses not to do so.
1.5.2009 3:11pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Hamas' goal is fixed: They state it in their charter.
Currently, their means are limited. Has anybody seen a guarantee that their means will remain limited?
If so, was the guarantee signed by, say, the UN?
What happens when Hamas acquires more efficient means?
Will their stated goal soften in conjunction with their increased killing power?

Whether Hamas is purposely colocating its facilities with civilians or is unable to avoid it due to population density is irrelevant. If the latter, the resulting civilian casualties are still their fault, morally and legally. Knowing what would happen, they went ahead. Thus,they willed civilian casualties. Of course, civilian casualties are infinitely more useful to them than rockets, which is why the colocation.

I know we demand more of civilized societies, et tedious cetera. But to go from that to suggesting barbarians are not actually committing crimes--thus response should be limited--is a stretch which some have attempted. Even if Hamas is, as Mark Steyn puts it, putting the crucifixion back in Easter and is a contender for this year's b\Barbarian Stakes, we still can call what they do a crime. To try to avoid that means trying to coerce Israel into not responding. "No crime, see. What's to worry?"
Rocketing Israel is a crime. Call Hamas too benighted to know what they do if you wish. But don't imply this means Israel is precluded from responding or the US is precluded from making a judgment.
1.5.2009 3:21pm
Sarcastro (www):
It's sad that Greg Q once again has to make the point that it's totally cool to adopt a "if you don't support us loudly, we sometimes kill you" policy.

Think of all those little Palestinian children-terrorists! Sometimes killing based on status is the only way to truly achieve peace.
1.5.2009 3:23pm
FormerStudent:
I'm not sure where this idea came from that in war the goal is to ensure that the number of casualties you inflict will precisely equal the number of casualties you suffer. It is a strange one, and I doubt shared by many actually at risk of becoming one of said casualties.
1.5.2009 3:32pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
I think Prof. Bernstein misses an important question though:

For those of us outside Israel whose economic trade and military aid enable that strong military, should WE steer our foreign policy on the basis that Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli lives? Personally I think the answer is no, which by all means ought to mean more restrictions on how US military aid can be used by countries like Israel.
1.5.2009 3:48pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Frankcross:

People are asking Palestinians not to launch occasionally deadly attacks on Israel. That's not a complex request, nor one that is difficult to comply with. But the failure to comply brings these consequences. Hamas knows it could save all these Palestinian lives but chooses not to do so.


In the absence of a strong Palestinian state with a strong and effective army and police force, it is a difficult request to comply with. The PA is incapable of controlling radical elements. Until then, such a request will be impossible to comply with, not just difficult.
1.5.2009 3:50pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Formerstudent:

I'm not sure where this idea came from that in war the goal is to ensure that the number of casualties you inflict will precisely equal the number of casualties you suffer. It is a strange one, and I doubt shared by many actually at risk of becoming one of said casualties.


I don't think that needs to be a part of hte equation, but when our aid is being used over decades to inflict massive harm on the Palestinian people, I think we need to have more say on how US military aid is used. This operation is of limited issue. However, over the first and second intifadas, the number of Palestinian civilian casualties were many times what the Israeli ones were. Over time, this is a more compelling argument that our support is prolonging the conflict and standing in the way of resolution.
1.5.2009 3:52pm
tvk:
frankcross,

Believe it or not I am actually more sympathetic to Israel's side of this dispute. But nothing in this situation is as simple as asking "Palestinians not to launch occasionally deadly attacks on Israel." The Palestinians can easily reply that they are asking Israel to stop their "occasionally deadly attacks on" Gaza that is happening right now. And please do not reply with a childish "the Palestinians started it first", since that is an invitation to trace back a vicious cycle of violence and historical grievances that will get us absolutely nowhere.

I do think there is a difference between Hamas's deliberate civilian attacks and Israel's inevitable collateral damage. But that is a moral distinction that I think others reasonably can and do disagree with.
1.5.2009 3:52pm
Srsly:
Quoting Abandon:
"This being said, I find the Israeli army/government to be directly responsible for the Palestinian casualties. The same cannot be said about Scandinavian responsibility when it comes to Darfur's victims. Your assertion in that matter is utterly over the top, we need not to explain why direct and indirect causations should not be addressed similarly."

I think we need not explain why sought(Hamas targets innocents) and regretted(Israel tries to shoot around civilians) deaths should not be addressed similarly.

Although come to think of it, Hamas seems pretty happy when Arab civilians die, so I guess every civilian death is similar in that respect.
1.5.2009 3:53pm
Dan Hamilton:

Think of all those little Palestinian children-terrorists!


Trying to be sarcastic but the point is that Hamas teaches children to be terrorists. They teach very young children that becoming BOMBs is a GOOD thing.

They elected Hamas. They knew what they were getting. They support what Hamas is doing. They are legitimate targets.

Sorry. Everything that comes out of Gaza shows that they support terrorism. They use their own children as decoys and blow them up as well as target them. They place no value on their own lives or their childrens lives. Why should anybody else place any value on their lives.

Final questions.
If the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel would Israel continue to attack Gaza and the West Bank?

If the Israelies stopped attacking the Palestinian would the Palestinian continue to attack Israel.

Those two questions determine who the attackers are. The answers are very clear. It has been 60 years since the creation of Israel. Whatever Israel does to the terrorists is fine. When the Palestinians recognize the right of Israel to exist and stop attacking Israel THEN and ONLY THEN should anybody care about Palestinian deaths.
1.5.2009 3:53pm
frankcross (mail):
I don't think so, einhverfr. In fact, Hamas was quite successful, as I understand it, in preventing rocket attacks during the ceasefire. Which would seem to be pretty conclusive evidence.
1.5.2009 3:53pm
Latinist:
FormerStudent:
Where that idea came from is people misinterpreting the word "disproportionate"; it's not actually an idea that critics of Israel are promoting, as far as I know. Really, proportionality is supposed to mean making sure that the amount of harm you do doesn't outweigh the benefit of the goal you're trying to accomplish. Which is a much more difficult, easily contested calculation that "casualties suffered vs. inflicted," but has the advantage of actually making some kind of sense.
1.5.2009 3:55pm
mariner:
FormerStudent:
I'm not sure where this idea came from that in war the goal is to ensure that the number of casualties you inflict will precisely equal the number of casualties you suffer.

IMO it's not an idea that deserves to be taken seriously.

It's simply a pretext to denigrate either the United States or Israel. I can't recall seeing it in any other context.
1.5.2009 4:00pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
FrankCross:
That is not what you said. You said "the Palestinians" rather than "Hamas." If you are asking for Hamas to stop the attacks that is one thing and not hard to comply with, but if you are asking "the Palestinians" to do the same, that is not realistic.
1.5.2009 4:15pm
Mary J. Woodhead (mail):
The U.S. suffers far more casualties from gang violence arising out of certain Los Angeles neighborhoods than does Israel from the Palestinians. Should we bomb those neighborhoods? Cut off their electricity if they we learn that some neighbors are feeding the gangsters? Bulldoze the homes of families with too many gang children? It's far too easy to make logical arguments in favor of Israeli violence. Once we start buying into those arguments, we lose our humanity. Whether we support Israelis or Palestinians, our hearts should be broken by the thought of more than 100 dead children and we should want it to stop. Making facile arguments about the congruence of death is the work of lawyers who can also excuse torture.
1.5.2009 4:17pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Mariner.
Precisely. But some of the commenters hereabouts are fearful and wonderful researchers who, even now, may be finding examples to confound you. Bet they'll show up any time.
Aaaany time.
At all.
Pretty quick.
Um, I gotta go, but I'm sure the examples will be here when I return.
1.5.2009 4:18pm
dave zimmerman (mail):
Former Student:

The purported goal of the invasion is to stop Israeli casualties, just as it has been for the last fifty years. But the casualties keep happening, because Israel is the most potent recruiting agent the Islamic radicals have. The next generation of the families who have suffered casualties will live for revenge, maybe die for it. Unless you wipe out the families completely - absent some outside facttor, whether morality or world opinion, I suppose that is do-able.

All the invasions, incursions, blitzkriegs have done nothing to enhance Israeli security, or they would not occur so frequently.

Israel has the capbility to make the the Palestinian rockets ineffective, but chooses not to develope it.
1.5.2009 4:23pm
Duffy Pratt (mail):
It's clearly the wrong question. David, suppose there were two chambers, one filled with 100 Israelis and another filled with 100 Palestinians, and you had to choose which room full of people would get exterminated. Would you flip a coin? Or would you pick the Palestinians? I'd probably pick the Palestinians, so that answers the question for me.

But that's not the question that needs to be asked here. The proposed justification for Israel's action is that it will stop Hamas from launching rockets, or at least hinder it substantially. If the action won't accomplish that end (and I don't know the answer to that), then it's surely wrong-headed no matter how many innocents get killed. If it might bring about some kind of lasting cease-fire, then it's probably worth it from the Israeli standpoint.
1.5.2009 4:25pm
PLR:
So yes, as a matter of abstract morality, Israeli lives are worth the same as Palestinian lives which are worth the same as Iranian lives which are worth the same as Mexican lives and so forth and so on.
The "abstract moral question," answered in only nine paragraphs! Es gefelt mir!
1.5.2009 4:25pm
Elliot123 (mail):
Does anybody here value their own life more than they value the life of a stranger? What's the proper ratio?

Suppose ten people are attacking me with the intent to kill me. Is it OK for me to kill all ten? How about killing one hundred people who are attacking me and intend to kill me? One thousand? At what point do I have an obligation to put down my weapons and let the attackers kill me? Does anyone know the number?
1.5.2009 4:25pm
bobfromfresno (mail):

Suppose ten people are attacking me with the intent to kill me. Is it OK for me to kill all ten? How about killing one hundred people who are attacking me and intend to kill me? One thousand? At what point do I have an obligation to put down my weapons and let the attackers kill me? Does anyone know the number?

You quite miss the point. Of course you have the right to kill every person trying to kill you.

The question is how many uninvolved, innocent bystanders may you rightfully kill whilst dispatching the attackers.
1.5.2009 4:31pm
Sarcastro (www):
I love the idea of Elliot123 putting down a thousand killers. In this hypothetical, I see him as a shoeless sexy god of War taking all comers!

On a more serious note, the parallel between people and nations totally holds. Especially because lethal force is always necessary - when you're a badass.

Even if the other side's kinda weak and emaciated. The Rule of Badass makes no exceptions!
1.5.2009 4:34pm
Armed Canadian (www):
Elliot,

That's a personal judgment. If you're a pacifist and believe that no amount of violence done against you justifies you responding in kind, then you die for your beliefs. I can respect that. At least you practice what you preach.

To me, there is no number. If a mob of indeterminate size is surrounding me with the intent to do me harm, I fight back until I am out of ammunition. Then until I can no longer stab, swing, punch, kick or bite.

Those are moral judgments left to the individual to decide. I have no moral obligation whatsoever to lay down my arms if those intent on doing me harm have no rational reason, directly or indirectly, to come and kill me.

Now if I attacked them and they were coming to attack in response, perhaps I should lay down my arms as an act of contrition. Would they accept it? Or should I allow them to kill me? Provided my act was heinous enough, a moral person should. Whether one would remains an open question.

In the absence of any logical reason for their violence towards me, I would fight as long as I had breath.
1.5.2009 4:38pm
q10:
If the answer to both questions is yes, the argument of Israel's critics is really an argument to abolish the nation-state as it currently exists...

Did you really only just notice that that's what we're arguing for?

...which makes the argument rather superfluous to the specifics of the fighting in Gaza.

Well, superfluous except for the fact that the specifics of the fighting in Gaza provide one powerful illustration of the evils wrought by the nationalist mentality and the current system of nation-states.

(And before somebody asks: yes, the evils of French nationlism, Palestinian nationalism, Turkish nationalism, Malay nationalism, Russian nationalism, and so forth are all worthy of criticism as well, and in many cases are worse than the evils of Israeli nationalism, and I'll be happy to mention how bad those things are if the issue comes up.)
1.5.2009 4:44pm
John Gordon:
Gaza's population density is not that high - it's about 25% higher than that of Washington DC, less than half of New York City's (all five boroughs) and less than that of most major world cities.
1.5.2009 4:46pm
Toby:
It is far too easy to talk about "losing our humanity" when it is someone else who is expereincing the blood.

How horrible, fantastic it is that we should be [considering war] because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing. I am myself a man of peace from the depths of my soul".

Some may recall how that worked out...
1.5.2009 4:49pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
But that's not the question that needs to be asked here. The proposed justification for Israel's action is that it will stop Hamas from launching rockets, or at least hinder it substantially. If the action won't accomplish that end (and I don't know the answer to that), then it's surely wrong-headed no matter how many innocents get killed. If it might bring about some kind of lasting cease-fire, then it's probably worth it from the Israeli standpoint.
Duffy, that's the question your asking, but others are suggesting that supporting Israel's actions are wrong even if one thinks that the operation will be a tremendous success, if it turns out that more Palestinians are killed than Israelis saved.
1.5.2009 4:49pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
John Gordon.
Okay. But the point is about its distribution. Are there a number of empty areas from which rockets could be launched and bunkers built for ammo storage? If so, that's where the action ought to be. If not, if the distribution is such that there are no empty areas, then colocation is unavoidable. In the latter case, choosing to go ahead means choosing civilian deaths. In the case of avoiding empty areas, that means choosing civilian deaths.
If Gaza is bereft of areas from which to fight without getting civilians killed, then they ought not fight. Or if they do, the rest of us are not bound to pretend it's Israel's fault.
1.5.2009 4:53pm
Ben P:

Gaza's population density is not that high - it's about 25% higher than that of Washington DC, less than half of New York City's (all five boroughs) and less than that of most major world cities.


Aside from perhaps a park or two, (and maybe a parking lot) there are awfully few areas within DC proper where one could drop several 500lb bombs and not cause some civillian casualties.
1.5.2009 4:53pm
Nick056:
The crucial fact here is that if a state can judge the relative worth of human life based on obligations to its citizenry -- a reasonable proposition -- of course the US is justified in telling the Israelis how to judge that relative worth of human life. Contrary to David, that's consistent so long as it is also in the interests of US citizens. If we permit nations to index the value of human life against national interest and the compact between a state and its citizens, then we have a model of ethical state action in which national interest and the citizen-state relationship is paramount.

Establishing that model provisionally, as David does, and then saying it would be unfair or hypocritical if the US conditioned its relationship with Israel upon its own judgment of the relative worth of human life, such that those judgments suit the interests of Americans -- well, that's an absurdity, and frankly, more of an Israeli-centered theory of ethics than a state-centered theory. Israeli is free to say an Israeli life is more important than a Palestinian life, but America is not free to condition its relationship with Israeli on its own view of the relative worth of Palestinian or Israeli life, even if that view is in the US national interest?

That reasonong takes us right back where we presumably began: we're right, you're wrong.
1.5.2009 4:54pm
dan:
DavidBernstein:

Your post considers the issue from the point of view of the Israeli government and citizenry. Isn't that irrelevant here, in a discussion primarily among U.S. citizens?

The question you continually fail to address (raised by Greenwald last week) is: what is the justification from the point of view of the UNITED STATES for continued US funding of Israel's military actions? And, as relates to your post today, should the US not value Palestinian lives equally with Israeli lives when it is making these funding decisions?
1.5.2009 4:55pm
bobfromfresno (mail):
Dan, you're wasting your time.

People have repeated asked Mr. Bernstein (and commenters) to explain what strategic importance that Israel has for the US. No response except for the sound of crickets.

Simply put, there isn't any. No pipelines go through there that we need, Israel doesn't produce large amounts of strategic element, etc. and the US doesn't need access to any Israeli territory to stage attacks (esp. when we have such a huge presence in Iraq.)

Of course, the unspoken answer is that there is some "bond" between Israel and the US because of religion or something, esp. among wingnut Christians who think they need Israel to flourish and produce red calves or some such nonsense to bring on the appearance of the messiah. I guess one could discuss the merits of these view. But they are not "strategic" reasons.
1.5.2009 5:07pm
FormerStudent:

Dave Zimmerman:
Israel has the capbility to make the the Palestinian rockets ineffective, but chooses not to develope it.


Really? Do they actually "have the capability" or is this a "car of tomorrow" argument?

Not that I'm sure it makes any difference.
1.5.2009 5:07pm
Sarcastro (www):
Americans better only pay attention to stuff in America's interest!
1.5.2009 5:09pm
dan:
Srsly:

I think we need not explain why sought(Hamas targets innocents) and regretted(Israel tries to shoot around civilians) deaths should not be addressed similarly

Israel cannot claim with a straight face that it is trying to "shoot around civilians" when it knowingly drops bombs on the homes of Hamas leaders with full knowledge that there are 18 innocent family members inside the home. Nor can it claim to be "shooting around" when it launches bombs at crowded neighborhoods. Instead, it's clear that Israel is "shooting AT" civilians. You can argue that Israel is justified in shooting at civilians (although you would have a hard time explaining why your arguments don't also apply to Hamas), but you cannot seriously claim that Israel is not currently shooting at civilians and intending* to kill them.

*Intent: purposeful, knowing, or with reckless disregard...
1.5.2009 5:10pm
Ken Arromdee:
The U.S. suffers far more casualties from gang violence arising out of certain Los Angeles neighborhoods than does Israel from the Palestinians.

The casualties are mostly other people in the neighborhoods, though.
1.5.2009 5:17pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
The question you continually fail to address (raised by Greenwald last week) is: what is the justification from the point of view of the UNITED STATES for continued US funding of Israel's military actions? And, as relates to your post today, should the US not value Palestinian lives equally with Israeli lives when it is making these funding decisions?
I address the questions I choose to address, because it's my blog. Feel free to start your own blog, and you can address whatever qusetions you'd like to address.
1.5.2009 5:20pm
Oren:
Dan, Israel is a vibrant technological democracy that contributes greatly to US economic and geopolitical goals. The Palestinians are a sponge for foreign money. It's pretty clear where the US should stand.
1.5.2009 5:21pm
Maciano (mail):
"So yes, as a matter of abstract morality, Israeli lives are worth the same as Palestinian lives which are worth the same as Iranian lives which are worth the same as Mexican lives and so forth and so on. But that question obfuscates more than it illuminates."

No, it doesn't. It's a pretty simple question: do we as humans all have human rights? You're, of course, right to disagree and believe in the creed: I love Israel, right or wrong.

"The real question is, is it either realistic or even desireable to expect nation-states to act as if their own citizens' lives are no more valuable than the lives of citizens of other countries. If the answer to both questions is yes, the argument of Israel's critics is really an argument to abolish the nation-state as it currently exists, which makes the argument rather superfluous to the specifics of the fighting in Gaza."

Critics of the Gaza invasion believe it is wrong that Israel bombs Palestinian villages with a lot of civilian victims. They're not into some philosophical tract discussing the legitimacy of the nation state. How far off can one be?

Also, the nation state exists not because humans are unequal in a moral sense, but because humans are part of very diverse groups (language, race, religion, etnicity). That stuff is hard to overcome. Humanity makes similar people prefer to live amongst themselves. We didn't form nation states, because Danes believe other Danes are superior to Germans or Brits.

That's also why mass immigration and multiculturalism will never work either. We need nation states, so we're not constantly at each other's throats, you know, like, say, Jews and Palestianians.
1.5.2009 5:24pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Prof. Bernstein:

I address the questions I choose to address, because it's my blog. Feel free to start your own blog, and you can address whatever qusetions you'd like to address.


Fair enough. However, I would point out it suggests that your whole purpose of blogging is to defend Israel, and that you won't blog about issues which get a little more murky.

BTW, I am in the process of writing my congressmen asking for more controls on US military aid to Israel given the ongoing hostilities between Israelis and Palestinians and the problems which befall Israeli Arabs. I am asking for the following as a condition of future support:

1) All high court decisions which have not been implemented because they favor Arabs MUST be implemented and

2) The recommendations in the Or Commission's report MUST be fully implemented.

None of these address the Palestinian issue directly, but seek to prevent Israel from continuing to be a state where Jews are first-class citizens and Arab citizens are subject to tremendous and illegal discrimination.
1.5.2009 5:27pm
dan:
Oren [really?]:

Israel is a vibrant technological democracy that contributes greatly to US economic and geopolitical goals. The Palestinians are a sponge for foreign money. It's pretty clear where the US should stand.

"Contributes greatly to US economic and geopolitical goals," like:
- creating immense hatred for us among hundreds of millions of people
- sucking down billions of dollars of our taxpayer dollars every year
- fueling terrorist attacks and generations of jihadists motivated primarily by resentment of our policies toward Israel

So... what exactly has Israel done for us lately that justifies screwing over our foreign policy so thoroughly?
1.5.2009 5:34pm
Nick056:
Oren, it might be advisable to consider the possibility that the relative achievements and potential achievements of the Palestinians and Israelis are not contingent ONLY upon some innate capabilities in Israeli society which the Palestinians lack. There is, after all, a multigenerational occupation of Palestinian territory, condemned by the international community, causing a marked difficulty in bringing even basic humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. This could impact the vibrancy of one group over the other.

Another perspective: the I/P conflict is used as an inspiration for terrorist recruiters and it stokes the animosity towards Americans from Islamic people (who nontheless don't do much for the Palestinians). After all, "support for Israel" is a banner issue that explains Arab discontent and anger toward America. Therefore, it's pretty clear where the US should stand.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple.
1.5.2009 5:39pm
bobfromfresno (mail):



People have repeated asked Mr. Bernstein (and commenters) to explain what strategic importance that Israel has for the US. No response except for the sound of crickets.


I address the questions I choose to address, because it's my blog. Feel free to start your own blog, and you can address whatever qusetions you'd like to address.

Indeed.
1.5.2009 5:41pm
c.gray (mail):

Well, superfluous except for the fact that the specifics of the fighting in Gaza provide one powerful illustration of the evils wrought by the nationalist mentality and the current system of nation-states.


And the workable alternative is?

You can not just wish away "the nationalist mentality", especially in places like Gaza &Israel. The reality is that you have at least two distinct nations of people who share little but a sense of mutual loathing and historical grievance. And as long as the political boundry between the conflict's participants is believed to be hazy, indistinct, and subject to revision, the fighting will continue, at least until one side or both is exhausted enough to make serious concessions.
1.5.2009 5:43pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
I personally think the US should start putting more conditions on receipt of aid by Israel. We CAN help really push for a change in the dynamic of the conflict if we choose to do so.
1.5.2009 5:46pm
Mike 'Ralph' Smith:
Dan:


but you cannot seriously claim that Israel is not currently shooting at civilians and intending* to kill them.

*Intent: purposeful, knowing, or with reckless disregard...


You seem to have redefined "intent" to have a much lower state of culpability than its usual meaning. I do not disagree with your view that Israel sometimes knows with reasonable certaintythat its actions will result in civilian deaths and at other times knows there is a substantial risk that its actions will result in civilian deaths. At least in criminal law, there's a distinction between intending a result, knowing a result is reasonably certain to occur, and knowing there's a substantial risk of a result occuring. I think those same distinctions are useful inthinking about the morality of actions. Let's not confuse issues by redefining the standard meaning of terms. As to whether Israeli leaders actually conciously desire to kill Palestinian civilians is a much more difficult question.
1.5.2009 5:46pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
c. grey:

And the workable alternative is?


A strong and viable Palestinian state with a strong and viable armed forces in a negotiated peace with Israel.

Absent a PA army, it is impossible for them to crack down on the armies of the political parties, so there is no way to make the will of the people for peace enacted.
1.5.2009 5:47pm
Mike 'Ralph' Smith:

Dan, Israel is a vibrant technological democracy that contributes greatly to US economic and geopolitical goals. The Palestinians are a sponge for foreign money. It's pretty clear where the US should stand.


What US economic and geopolitical goals does Israel contribute to in any way, let alone enough to offset the massive PR hit we take in the Arab and Muslim worlds (and to a lesser extent just about everywhere else)? As for being a sponge for foreign money, there's little question which of these two are soaking the US.
1.5.2009 5:51pm
Xanthippas (mail) (www):

So yes, as a matter of abstract morality, Israeli lives are worth the same as Palestinian lives which are worth the same as Iranian lives which are worth the same as Mexican lives and so forth and so on. But that question obfuscates more than it illuminates. The real question is, is it either realistic or even desireable to expect nation-states to act as if their own citizens' lives are no more valuable than the lives of citizens of other countries.


It's noteworthy, the willingness of Bernstein to write a lengthy and even-handed post in an effort to answer a question no one is asking, so as to avoid answering a question that many critics of this campaign are asking, which is whether the cost in Palestinian lives is out of proportion to the gains in Israel's national security. And actually, that matter is offhandedly addressed in the next to last paragraph as an "interesting question." Interesting, but not compelling enough to address over a strawman argument.
1.5.2009 5:51pm
Oren:


So... what exactly has Israel done for us lately that justifies screwing over our foreign policy so thoroughly?
1

The Intel team in Haifa designed the latest microprocessor cores. That alone is enough for me.
1.5.2009 5:51pm
Oren:

There is, after all, a multigenerational occupation of Palestinian territory, condemned by the international community, causing a marked difficulty in bringing even basic humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. This could impact the vibrancy of one group over the other.


As pointed out earlier, Palestinian society is far ahead of even the Saudis in basic stats like literacy and infant mortality. In the absence of spoilers like Hamas, they could have already had a real, productive society.
1.5.2009 5:53pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Oren:
Intel Corp deserves a certain amount of credit for helping foster real multiculturalism in its Israeli programs (Druze, Muslim, and Jewish programs for example, are sponsored by them).

Unfortunately, they have a greater commitment to plurality of the culture than the Israeli government does, given the attempts in 2007 to prevent all Arab MK's from seeking re-election.
1.5.2009 5:58pm
SecurityGeek:
I'm surprised, considering the (in)famous author, that nobody is discussing John Bolton's essay on the three-state solution.
1.5.2009 6:07pm
Christopher Cooke (mail):
I think David is arguing against a straw man, in part, because even Roth is not really arguing that Israel should value Palestinians the same as the lives of its own citizens, he is just saying they should minimize civilian deaths, which they are already obligated to do.

But, David's post does bring up some highly relevant issues:
(1) is Israel complying with its obligations under international human rights law with respect to how it is responding to Hamas in the Gaza strip?

(2) how should a nation-state such as Israel respond to a group, such as Hamas, that is not bound by international human rights laws or treaties, and is not following them in how it is conducting military actions?

(3) how should the US value the impact of Israel's actions in Gaza on its foreign policy in determining its policy towards Israel and the region?


The first two issues have vexed the US in the global war on terror. There are no easy answers for Israel either.

The third issue is really whether the US gets more out of its continued support of Israel than it is paying for in other ways --financially, through aid to Israel, and in security terms, because the US could be a bigger target for terrorist attacks because of its alliance.

I would argue that the US' own actions in invading Iraq probably make us a much bigger target for terrorist attacks than does our support for Israel. So, ironically, there is now a lower marginal cost to a foreign policy that supports Israel ---i.e., they already hate us and target us---, so supporting Israel has fewer drawbacks now than it did 20 years ago.
1.5.2009 6:18pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Bolton's essay is interesting. However, this would involve renegotiating portions of peace treaties which might not be in favor by Egypt and Jordan.

One option would be to suggest that Egypt and Jordan should take on administrative, security, and nation-building roles, and should be seen as temporary occupying powers. However, for this to work, IMO, the 67 borders, with no exceptions for settlements, would need to be used as the guide.
1.5.2009 6:42pm
Anabasis (mail):
what is the justification from the point of view of the UNITED STATES for continued US funding of Israel's military actions?

I don't have insider knowledge of what is discussed in the inner circles of the CIA, NSA, Pentagon and the offices of the President and President-Elect...but I'm assuming that when international diplomatic pressure fails and Iran is about to get The Bomb, we'll look to Israel to take care of the problem the same way they did with Saddam and Osirak. We will of course issue a strongly worded statement of disapproval after the bombing is complete, as will many other very grateful nations.

In other words, it is reasonably within the scope of US strategic interests to support the only functioning democracy in the Middle East, especially given that democracy's pro-Western and pro-US bias.

Absent a PA army, it is impossible for [the PA] to crack down on the armies of the political parties, so there is no way to make the will of the people for peace enacted.

What do you think Israel is doing right now? Right about this time, Mahmoud Abbas must feel like Churchill did when he heard about the bombing of Pearl Harbor — it's a terrible tragedy, but it just saved him and all his people. If Israel can keep this up for a few more weeks, Fatah's reconquest of Gaza will be a cakewalk. Then Israel will have an opportunity to sit down and negotiate with a Palestian government that actually recognizes its right to exist.
1.5.2009 7:10pm
Mike 'Ralph' Smith:
Read the Bolton piece. It seems like a nonstarter because every player involved (Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Palestinians) would likely want no part of it. Egypt doesn't want disfuntional Gaza and radical Hamas within the state. Likewise, Jordan and in particular the ruling family does not want the West Bank and a majority Palestinian population. I doubt Israel wants to give up its settlements in the West Bank and Jeruselem. And, for better or worse, Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank see themselves as a single nationality and do not want to be split apart and under foreign control.
1.5.2009 7:12pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Anabasis:

What do you think Israel is doing right now?

Abbas needs to return to Gaza on the back of a Palestinian tank, not an Israeli one. Unfortunately Palestinian tanks are banned under Oslo.

I would also point out that Ha'aretz is reporting that hundreds of Hamas members held by the PA in the west bank have been freed since this conflict began, so my thinking is this is a little more complex in terms of Palestinian politics than you suggest.
1.5.2009 7:33pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
It's noteworthy, the willingness of Bernstein to write a lengthy and even-handed post in an effort to answer a question no one is asking,
If you look at the comments thread to this post, you will see that you have just called Brian Leiter "no one."
1.5.2009 7:52pm
Duffy Pratt (mail):

Duffy, that's the question your asking, but others are suggesting that supporting Israel's actions are wrong even if one thinks that the operation will be a tremendous success, if it turns out that more Palestinians are killed than Israelis saved.


I hope you realize that people make these arguments because Israel actually responds, sometimes, to moral outrage. That's one of things that separates it from Hamas. I suppose at some point, there would arise a situation when even you would say that Israel went too far. For example, exterminating the entire Gaza population would probably stop the rockets from being launched. And it would simply save Israeli lives at the cost of more Palestinians. But I doubt anyone would be in favor of it. Nor can I imagine Israel doing this. (On the other hand, if they had the means, I could easily imagine Israel's enemies doing it to her.)
1.5.2009 8:13pm
Elliot123 (mail):
"1) is Israel complying with its obligations under international human rights law with respect to how it is responding to Hamas in the Gaza strip?"

What specific law? Enacted by whom? Obligating Israel how?
1.5.2009 8:25pm
KMF:
The duties of a state relative to citizens, non-citizens, etc are tackled in an essay by Kasher and Yadlin on the military ethics of fighting terror - see Journal of Military Ethics, vol. 4, no. 1, 2005.

A response to their essay can be found in the Israeli philosophy journal 'Philosophia', vol. 36, no. 2, June 2008. The author draws on philosophical analyses of 'compatriot preference' to explain that while such a preference makes sense in most cases, there are instances when a state actually has greater obligations to non-citizens, especially those which are under its tutelage, than it does to its citizens.
1.5.2009 8:30pm
EH (mail):
I find hilarious the assertion that Palestinians are "foreigners."
1.5.2009 9:11pm
Xanthippas (mail) (www):

If you look at the comments thread to this post, you will see that you have just called Brian Leiter "no one."


Having read his comment, it's clear his true question is about the proportionality of the response, not about whether Palestinian and Israeli lives are of equal value. Leiter presumes the disproportionality of the conflict, and that you can support it only as being proportional if Palestinian lives are worth far less than Israeli lives.

Again, I'm not really sure what this discussion is intended to illuminate. Clearly, every government on Earth regards the lives of their own citizens as more valuable than the lives of citizens of other nations. We agree that this is a subjective valuation, not an objective one, as international law (or really, law in general) makes clear. Regardless, I still don't see anyone, Leiter included, making the argument that Israel is only permitted to respond to Hamas' unjustified attacks by killing an equal number of Palestinians as are killed in rocket attacks. A nation defending itself is clearly entitled to inflict more harm on an aggressor than the aggressor inflicts, because the defending nation has moral authority to do so in that it didn't initiate the hostilities. But once again the question arises...how many more citizens of the aggressor is the defending nation allowed to kill to prevent the attacks? Or in other words, an argument about proportionality. Which in its substance, is only glancingly addressed by the second to last paragraph of this post.
1.5.2009 9:17pm
DavidBernstein (mail):
Regardless, I still don't see anyone, Leiter included, making the argument that Israel is only permitted to respond to Hamas' unjustified attacks by killing an equal number of Palestinians as are killed in rocket attacks.
I think plenty of people are arguing this, but only indirectly, because they know that they are asking something of Israel that they think is a proper moral principle, but that no one else ever obeys.
1.5.2009 9:33pm
TGGP (mail) (www):
I'm often annoyed by David Bernstein's ridiculously un-self-conscious Israel obsession, but on this issue he's dead right and anybody who expects a government to place equal value on citizens and non-citizens is a fool.
1.5.2009 11:15pm
http://volokh.com/?exclude=davidb:

I'm often annoyed by David Bernstein's ridiculously un-self-conscious Israel obsession, but on this issue he's dead right and anybody who expects a government to place equal value on citizens and non-citizens is a fool.

I think the fools are the people who think this is the relevant question, or even an important question.
1.5.2009 11:20pm
Michael B (mail):
Are Palestinian Lives Worth as Much as Israeli Lives?

Since Hamas purposely manufactures, stores and fires its rockets and other munitions in civilian centers, including Mosques and homes, why is this question being asked only of Israel? Why doesn't the MSM repetitively ask this question during news casts?

Likewise, the following table reflects the number of rockets Hamas has fired into Israeli civilian centers per year:

2001 - 4
2002 - 35
2003 - 155
2004 - 281
2005 - 179
2006 - 946
2007 - 896
2008 - 1,212

And following is the numbers of mortars Hamas has fired into Israeli civilian centers per year:

2001 - 245
2002 - 257
2003 - 265
2004 - 876
2005 - 238
2006 - 22
2007 - 749
2008 - 1,531

So why haven't MSM styled reporters been wringing their hands over what Israeli lives are worth during the last several years, prior to that time as well?

And then there are statements by Hamas's own leadership that are interesting, excerpt, emphasis added:
As fighting intensified on the northern outskirts of Gaza City today, a top Hamas leader broke cover to warn Israel that the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for their own young who have died in the devastating assault. ‘They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine,’ said Mahmoud Zahar, in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location. ‘They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.’
These are people who deliberately kill their own children by turning them into human bombs -- and now they pretend to outrage because, having placed their children in harm's way in a theatre of war they have created, some of these children have unfortunately been killed. The fact is that Hamas have always specifically targeted Israeli and Jewish children and young people for murder – in accordance with their charter which declares their intention to kill every Jew in the world.

Details, details ...
1.5.2009 11:37pm
Michael B (mail):
Melanie Phillips is providing other superb commentary on critical fronts, including the MSM and the propaganda and moral front in general:

The Moral Battleground, excerpt:

"... so now begins the second and most difficult stage. Inside Israel, there is both determination and dread as tens of thousands of Israel’s conscript army are called to the front. Untold numbers of these soldiers will lose their lives as the result not merely of the genocidal aims of Hamas (and its Iranian puppet-master) but also the indifference and pusillanimity towards Palestinian terror displayed by world governments over the past six decades of Israel’s fight for survival, along with the active encouragement of genocidal Islamists by leftists, Jew-haters, Muslims and useful idiots who were on such thuggish display yesterday in the co-ordinated demonstrations in British and other western cities."

The Real Agenda, excerpt:

BBC World TV has spent much of the day whining that Israel is refusing to allow the international media entry into Gaza despite an Israeli court ruling that it should allow the media in. This is amongst the reasons why it isn’t choosing to do so:
Police were searching Saturday night for a foreign reporter working for an Iranian TV network who reported the IDF incursion into Gaza before the military authorized the release of the information to the public. Also Saturday evening, a reporter for the Lebanese LBC network who was broadcasting near the Gaza Strip said the IDF was moving from Nahal Oz towards the Nezarim junction.
[...]

And, in the west their message is being enthusiastically endorsed by Islamists, the far left and the usual useful idiots – and with not a peep of protest from anyone else at such genocidal displays. Jihad Watch reports that in the Netherlands, anti-Israel demonstrators have once again been chanting
Hamas Hamas, Jews to the gas
Reminiscent of Fort Lauderdale, FL recently.

And less explicitly, reminiscent of the United Nations.
1.6.2009 12:00am
kidblue:
This was a strange analysis.

You asked a moral question ("Whose lives are more valuable?")

You gave a legal-political answer ("State interests, social contracts, and treaties").

In other words, you didn't even answer your own question.
1.6.2009 12:12am
Christopher Cooke (mail):


What specific law? Enacted by whom? Obligating Israel how?


Elliot123, I am referring to the same bodies of laws that were enforced in the Nuremberg trials, when Nazis were prosecuted and, in some instances, sentenced to death for crimes against humanity.

If you really want a primer on international law, I recommend you start with Grotius, and work your way forward. I suspect you do not, however.
1.6.2009 12:37am
ravenshrike:
I want to know what everyone calling for the US to stop funding Israel expects Israel to do once we stop funding them. At that point, they lose any real incentive they hae for holding back.
1.6.2009 1:03am
ReaderY:
It's worth mentioning that we ourselves have killed far more people in both Iraq and Afghanistan than were killed here, and nobody's said boo.
1.6.2009 1:19am
trad and anon (mail):
Israel isn't *deliberately* killing 100 Gazan civillians to save 1 Israeli civillian, they're (I'm assuming here, but I think it's safe) Hamas military targets that incidentally or deliberately are within populated civillian areas.
Keep in mind that our major source of information here is the Israeli government, which is not exactly unbiased. We can be confident they're not being 100% accurate with us, since governments lie all the time, especially about their military operations, and I see no reason to believe the Israeli government is an exception. I'd take what they're saying with a very heavy dose of salt, especially when it's about something as undiscernable as their motivations for hitting particular targets.
1.6.2009 1:43am
jgshapiro (mail):

Israel (presumably) thought long and hard ahead of time about its planned bombardment and invasion, knew that civilians would die even if Israel took steps to minimize such deaths, and went ahead anyway. That's deliberate killing.

This argument makes it impossible to retaliate against anyone who uses human shields. The appropriate blame for the death of human shields lies on the people who hide behind them, thus risking their lives.

As someone asked earlier in this thread, the real question is whether Hamas values Palestinian lives? If they did, why on Earth would they store munitions in or near schools, mosques, etc.?

There is no evidence that Israel is targeting Gazan civilians, only that they are dying in large numbers. The latter does not establish the former.
1.6.2009 1:45am
Charles Gittings (mail) (www):
1.6.2009 1:50am
GatoRat:

but you cannot seriously claim that Israel is not currently shooting at civilians and intending* to kill them


What an absurd argument. It would be much easier on Israel if they were intending to kill civilians. The reality is that, like the US military, Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian casualties to the point of great risk to their own soldiers. This has less to do with altruism, but political reality.

We also can't be naive; militaries don't exist without a supporting civilian population to fill the ranks, feed them, arm them and give them a reason to fight.
1.6.2009 2:12am
GatoRat:

things in Gaza are the way they are mostly because that's how Israel made them.


Nothing like making an argument with complete ignorance of history behind you. The Palestinian situation was not created by Israel, nor the British before them, it was created by none other than the Ottoman Empire, the vestiges of which are causing problems in the Mediterranean and Middle East to this day.

The 1967 war was one of the Arabs making. They had the chance to stop and chose to not do so. This is the folly and conceit of the Arabs and Palestinians. The only reason that Gaza isn't a successful territory/country is because the Palestinian leadership has chosen not to make it so.
1.6.2009 2:16am
Mike 'Ralph' Smith:

I want to know what everyone calling for the US to stop funding Israel expects Israel to do once we stop funding them. At that point, they lose any real incentive they hae for holding back.


Why do you suppose Israel's actions in trying to minimize Palestinian casualties, such as they are, is just a sham for maintaining US funding?
1.6.2009 2:17am
Mike 'Ralph' Smith:

We also can't be naive; militaries don't exist without a supporting civilian population to fill the ranks, feed them, arm them and give them a reason to fight.


Assuming arguendo that the Palestinians are just in trying to defeat Israel and putting aside the effectiveness of the tactics, would you then support Palestinian terrorism against Israeli civilians? After all, "militaries don't exist without a supporting civilian population to fill the ranks, feed them, arm them and give them a reason to fight."
1.6.2009 2:24am
Eli1:
Assuming, arguendo, that Hamas could stop this if they stopped firing rockets. Do Palestinians have the right to self determination? Are they justified in using violence against an occupation depriving them of that right? And if so, would an unsatisfactory solution, like being locked into the Gaza bantustan, terminate that right? Up until the advent of smart bombs, standard American policy was "you kill our civilians we kill yours". That was the logic behind Dresden in WW2 and the basis of MAD in the cold war. If a combatant doesn't have access to targetted weapons, would he be justified in using untargetted ones for retaliatory purposes?
If someone doesn't buy the logic that drops 1 ton bombs on an apartment building and calls all the civilians "collateral damage" would they be justified in retaliating against enemy civilians?
1.6.2009 2:47am
jgshapiro (mail):

No power on this earth has had more control of the state of affairs in Gaza than Israel has since 1967.

Except, of course, for the Gazans. They could have tried to form a peaceful society, run their schools, markets and other institutions just like any small state. They could have ignored Israel, especially after Israel pulled out of Gaza several years ago. But instead, they have chosen, and continue to choose to mount attacks against Israel knowing that eventually Israel will respond militarily, just like any sovereign would. And in that response, whatever progress they have made in the past few years will be wiped out as their institutions are destroyed and they have to start over.

At some point the Palestinians are going to have to take responsibility for their own plight. They can choose peaceful coexistence under current borders (or thereabouts), or they can continue to fight and live in the misery that results.

What has all of the terrorism gotten them after 60 years? Their borders are smaller now than in 1948. They are poorer now than in 1967. They are more backward, relatively speaking, than most arab or middle eastern states, even though in the not-too-distant past they were approximately equal in many measures of quality of life to Israel, Jordan, Turkey, et. al. Even putting aside the morality of terrorism, you have to question Palestinian tactics just based on efficacy. Isn't the definition of insanity continuing to pursue the same course over and over again, expecting a different result?
1.6.2009 3:42am
Tritium (mail):
I think careful consideration to the allowances made in support of Israel over the Palestineans. But this conflict began during World War I. When the Palestinians were promised self government if they helped to win the war against the Ottoman Empire, it wasn't kept. Then, all of a sudden, the former Royal Families and their followers arrive to establish their rule upon the land.

I can understand how there would be bitterness. Especially considering that Royalty in another land dumped their defeated relatives upon people who defeated then so they could rule them. Personally, I don't have any problem with the Jewish people, but I do have issues with how Israel does react. I am concerned about each life, and the continuance of all those lives... However... Based upon your assessments, I can't completely disagree. So I have an everyone wins policy.

Destroy Israel, Destroy Gazza, and Destroy any Areas nearby where they could be camping out, but do it in one swift indiscriminate attack. No suffering, No more conflict, just do the dang humanist thing, and get it over with already. Besides, that's how it is suppose to end, right?
1.6.2009 3:44am
Tritium (mail):
And because I'm just an opposer, I will add another comment. Every single time a Government takes responsibility for the welfare of people outside their jurisdiction, it leads to even more problems. The United States being the most Guilty of all nations. I wouldn't be surprised if the word "Sin" was action derived from the equivalant of "tion" in "nation" (nat referring to nature).

A Government is created in order to protect the rights of the people within assuming the Government was formed by people absent of being conquered. Because of a failure somewhere in the legal system, most Law Students have no idea that a Constitution is governed by a Science of Law, that which is "natural" and that which declares truth. Any legislative act contrary to a declared Constitution is by definition false. Can you act in a way contrary to law without breaking that law? How could you possibly claim something is allowable when doing so would require a new Constitution?

What Constitutes an Evil Man? If a written Constitution clearly states the makings of an Evil Man, an amendment can add clarification, and amendments can be deemed unconstitutional, but how can a clause making up a Constitution be contrary to itself? It can't be. Lost Knowledge hurts everyone, and I have a little bit more.

I didn't realize until just now, but the Bush Family ran across my family line in some research I had been doing for Geneology. (Thankfully a Branch that doesn't contaminate my blood.) In 1800, the Bush Family came to America (or around the time) escaping political persecution, and without mentioning specifics, just referred to it as "The Fatherland" which was common for the Ottoman Empire. It is not uncommon for Royal families to get revenge several generations after the fact, but knowing full well that Prescott Bush ran the bank that had personal controlling interest in Auschwitz during WWII, and the contraversey with $$ that should have gone to survivors rather than his kids, (release in 1980 when G H Bush was VP) and that the current congress seems more Aristocratic than ever, as well as Standard Oils contributions to the Nazi Party... Sure makes you think if the world might just be out to destroy you.

Just to be clear, If I had to choose any side, it would never be G.W. Bush, since his assault was purely for personal gain (vengeance) against Saddam. On 9/11, the United States became a victim of terror... That doesn't excuse what we did to the Iraqi people, nor what we did in afghanistan. Both missions will always be a failure. Not because of how it was executed, but because it was executed. None of the actions in the Middle East are any true example of Justice. And while I wish I could say I support them, I cannot because they neglected their first duty, and that was the Constitution. If you give an oath to protect something, it's best to know as much as you can about it, so you know what is defined as a danger to it. Right now, it's every single person in Congress, including the Constitutional Scholar that isn't really.
1.6.2009 4:33am
Eli1:
Jgshapiro

What has all of the terrorism gotten them after 60 years? Their borders are smaller now than in 1948. They are poorer now than in 1967

What has terrorism gotten israel? A state. They were in no position to fight the English Army. What has terrorism gotten the Palestinians? Autonomy. They wouldn't have gotten to Oslo 1 by singing we shall overcome and asking politely for their rights. 48 and 67 were wars, and the lesson to be learned from them is when the other side is stronger asymmetrical warfare is the way to go.
1.6.2009 6:25am
Joel Rosenberg (mail) (www):
The PC analysis -- which, of course, Hamas is counting on -- militates (so to speak) toward Hamas not making accommodations with Israel (or the rest of the Jews in the world), except, perhaps, giving better directions to the rocks and trees to hide behind before being murdered. Nope; it argues for Hamas perfecting its deployment of human body armor, something it's already raised to a high art.

Note that in response to the Israeli Defence Ministry calling up Gazans to tell them to get away from targets, the late Sheikh Yerbouti (or whatever his name was, may it be blotted out like he was) perfected the strategy of having Hamas rush women and babies to the target.

To whom does it make sense for Hamas to improve its use of human body armor? Do they have to deploy their "fighters" wearing infants for it to become clear that encouraging the use of human body armor is grotesque? Or would that not do it?
1.6.2009 7:47am
Steve H:

This argument makes it impossible to retaliate against anyone who uses human shields. The appropriate blame for the death of human shields lies on the people who hide behind them, thus risking their lives.


Um, no. It simply makes it impossible to avoid taking responsibility by asserting that civilians weren't killed deliberately.

Sometimes governments has to take actions that deliberately kill people. Whether those killings are justifiable under any particular legal or moral analysis can be debated, but I think it is misleading to evade responsibility by asserting that the killings were simply an accident.
1.6.2009 8:06am
Richard Aubrey (mail):
DB.
I disagree. They don't think it is a proper moral principle. They think it's a tool which can be used against Israel. Otherwise, they have not the slightest interest in it.
In fact, given certain circumstances, they'd justify the reverse.
"It's not immoral to blow up a kid's party at McDonalds. It's about land reform." Rough paraphrase of an acquaintance when traveling in El Salvador in 1987. But, were I to track this nutcase down, I have no doubt he'd be insisting on the lay version of proportionality, at most. If it looks as if it can handicap Israel.
You presume too much good (but erroneous) faith.
1.6.2009 8:19am
http://volokh.com/?exclude=davidb:

Because of a failure somewhere in the legal system, most Law Students have no idea that a Constitution is governed by a Science of Law, that which is "natural" and that which declares truth.

My law school certainly failed to teach me this.
1.6.2009 9:28am
PLR:
[einhverfur at 5:27 pm yesterday] Fair enough. However, I would point out it suggests that your whole purpose of blogging is to defend Israel, and that you won't blog about issues which get a little more murky.
Ya think?

With the stench of death in Gaza becoming overpowering, who (beside the NYT) wants to tackle a tough issue like the role that the upcoming Israeli elections and the departure of the cheerleaders in Washington D.C. play in the destruction?
1.6.2009 10:24am
Xanthippas (mail) (www):

I disagree. They don't think it is a proper moral principle. They think it's a tool which can be used against Israel. Otherwise, they have not the slightest interest in it.


Or rather, since Hamas is incapable of inflicting a disproportionate amount of casualties upon the Israelis, it's really not possible to discuss it in the reverse. Since far more Palestinians have died in decades of conflict, it's really quite silly to talk about proportionality except as applied to Israel. And what you are referring to with the rest of your comment is the justification for the use of force, not proportionality.
1.6.2009 10:57am
trad and anon (mail):
"It's not immoral to blow up a kid's party at McDonalds. It's about land reform." Rough paraphrase of an acquaintance when traveling in El Salvador in 1987. But, were I to track this nutcase down, I have no doubt he'd be insisting on the lay version of proportionality, at most. If it looks as if it can handicap Israel.
Didn't DavidB just spend umpteen posts defending exactly that proposition, as long as you claim the kids' party is "regrettable but unavoidable collateral damage"?
1.6.2009 11:15am
Elliot123 (mail):
"Elliot123, I am referring to the same bodies of laws that were enforced in the Nuremberg trials, when Nazis were prosecuted and, in some instances, sentenced to death for crimes against humanity."

OK. What specific law? Enacted by whom? Obligating Israel how?
1.6.2009 12:09pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
xanthippas. Presume Hamas' masters provide them with the wherewithal. Point is, proporitionality in this sense means doing what you have to do to accomplish the goal and nothing further. Much murkier concept than counting casualties and comparing weapons systems.
Consider further that Hamas' most valuable weapons are dead civilians and that they therefore connive at the deaths of their own citizens.
Colton and Palmer (History of the Western World) refer, in talking about Balkan independence movements, to zealots who facilitated the deaths of their own people at the hands of the Turks "to emphasize their suffering in the eyes of Europe". Not a new story, nor one that can be dismissed by gasps of faux disbelief.
trad.
The McDonalds birthday party in question was destroyed in order to destabilize the society. The perps figured that the particular horror would be particularly effective. That's a different order of business from trying to avoid civilian casualties when the target surrounds itself with civilians.
As you know.
False equivalence.
Really, really false.
1.6.2009 12:13pm
Duncan Frissell (mail):
Generally speaking, Death Cults like Hamas place a low value on the lives of its own citizens and fighters alike so perhaps it's logical for other actors to adopt the same calculus.

Actually, the US is the largest contributor to the support of non-citizens. Our overseas military expenditures allow other nations free (or reduced cost) defense and free navigation. What do you suppose those two services would be worth on the open market?
1.6.2009 12:36pm
Thales (mail) (www):
DB,

I don't often agree with you on political matters and I take no particular "side" in this conflict, but I think this is an outstanding essay, and really the only reasonable position one can take.
1.6.2009 1:51pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
trad. I shouldn't have to make this point ref the Mickey D birthday party, but some hereabouts are afflicted with deliberate obtuseness.
So let me make the point that should not have to be made:
The terrs would not have blown up the burger joint if the kids had not been there. It was the kids who were the target, not idle deep fryers.
The Israelis would shoot at a gun position even if there were no kids there, and with a sense of relief, if only because that's one opportunity for Hamas PR that Hamas won't have.
Everybody knows the difference and I hope nobody will pretend not to.
1.6.2009 2:20pm
Michael B (mail):
Bill Roggio reporting here and here, Khaled Abu Toameh, here, Hamas currently "desperate for lull," in "disarray."
1.6.2009 2:23pm
PLR:
[Elliott 123]:OK. (1) What specific law? (2) Enacted by whom? (3) Obligating Israel how?
(1) The Nuremberg Principles

(2) The International Law Commission, 1950.

(3) link
1.6.2009 2:25pm
Steve H:

The Israelis would shoot at a gun position even if there were no kids there, and with a sense of relief, if only because that's one opportunity for Hamas PR that Hamas won't have.


Actually, if this is the real reason for Israeli relief, then there isn't all that much of a difference.
1.6.2009 3:06pm
Elliot123 (mail):
"Established in 1948, the International Law Commission's mandate is the progressive development and codification of international law, in accordance with article 13(1)(a) of the Charter of the United Nations."

What authority does the ILC have to enact anything? What authority does the UN have? Are all nations subject to the codifications of the ILC and UN? Why?
1.6.2009 3:48pm
Elliot123 (mail):
Forgot the ILC link above.

http://www.un.org/law/ilc/
1.6.2009 3:50pm
Oren:
Elliot, this is not the place for a 2L course on the philosophy of international law.
1.6.2009 4:11pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Steve. Yeah, but I didn't think anybody here would accept the proposition that Israelis would prefer not to kill kids just because Israelis would prefer not to kill kids.
You can imagine the wrinkled brows and snorts of disbelief.
1.6.2009 4:21pm
PLR:
What authority does the ILC have to enact anything?
Elliot, this is not the place for a 2L course on the philosophy of international law.
But briefly, "enacted" was not the right verb. The ILC articulated international law.
1.6.2009 4:21pm
Elliot123 (mail):
"Elliot, this is not the place for a 2L course on the philosophy of international law."

Sorry. I don't see you name on the list of the twenty blog principals. Is that an oversight?

But, it's a simple question. Does the ILC have the authrity to enact anything? The original question asked who enacted "bodies of laws that were enforced in the Nuremberg trials."

PLR notes the ILC articulates. OK. That appears to agree with its own mission statement. So,who enacts "bodies of laws that were enforced in the Nuremberg trials?" Under what authority? And what makes Israel subject to them?

Perhaps some 2L can tell us?
1.6.2009 4:47pm
Anabasis (mail):
Abbas needs to return to Gaza on the back of a Palestinian tank, not an Israeli one.

Abbas and Fatah won't need tanks to suppress Hamas after Israel's campaign is done -- assuming Israel is able to resist international pressure long enough to carry the campaign to conclusion. Every Hamas fighter Israel kills makes Fatah stronger and paves the way for Fatah's reconquest of Gaza.

Unfortunately Palestinian tanks are banned under Oslo.

"Unfortunately"? Good lord, ever since the Israeli wall went up, the Palestinians have done nothing but engage in civil war and try to kill each other. Why in the world would you consider it "fortunate" to throw tanks into that mix?
1.6.2009 6:37pm
R.C. (mail):
No, the relative value of the lives of Israeli combatants and non-combatants is not really the issue.

The issue is, "How many non-combatants is it worth to successfully kill a combatant in time of conflict? ...and, does that ratio change when the combatants are terrorists, instead of regular uniformed military bearing arms openly and only engaging legitimate military targets themselves?"

These numbers are not perfect, but allow me to recommend:
- A 10-to-1 ratio of regular military combatants to unintentional non-combatant casualties is acceptable;
- A 5-to-1 ratio of irregular combatants is acceptable, which is to say that it's worth twice as much risk to civilian lives to ensure the death of an irregular as it is to ensure the death of regular military who "follow the rules";
- A 3-to-1 ratio is acceptable if the irregular combatants are not just "irregulars" but absolutely deplorable; e.g., Al Qaeda terrorists who saw heads off captives on-camera and bomb their own co-religionists in hopes of sparking civil war.

We must keep in mind that the whole notion of the "laws of war" exists to limit, not encourage, the most egregiously uncivilized kinds of warfare.

As I write, estimates are that Israel has managed to kill 3 Hamas militants for every 1 accidental non-combatant casualty.

Good for them. That's about right. It's worth it: Justice in warfare requires these vermin be removed from humanity, and the rules should be permissive in allowing regular forces to effect that removal.

To the degree we disadvantage "regular military" with crazily perfectionistic expectations, we encourage and subsidize terrorism as a more effective alternative.

Only with such a perspective can we, in the long-term, reduce the attractiveness of terrorism to those who would otherwise consider wielding it.
1.6.2009 7:08pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
HC: Where do you get those figures from?

The figures I saw, prior to the ground campaign were roughly 3 confirmed combatants to every confirmed non-combatant. Unfortunately, the issue was that to these four, there were an additional 2 who may or may not have been combatants. So this means a figure somewhere between 1:1 and 5:1. My guess is that the shelling will increase the percentage of non-combatant deaths substantially.
1.6.2009 8:15pm
einhverfr (mail) (www):
Interestingly, the US has just come out in favor of the Egyptian cease-fire proposal. I suppose we can expect a "Whose side are you on anyway?" comment from FM Livny?
1.6.2009 8:19pm
Greg Q (mail) (www):
Mike 'Ralph' Smith babbled:
@ Ariel, there is a requirement not to use civilians as a human shield, but this is much more limited than your assertion that combatants must be segregated from non-combatants. Regardless, if one party commits a war crime, it does not absolve the other side from any war crimes that it may commit.

Yes, it does. Or, rather, when you violate the Laws of War you lose their protection, so killing every civilian you're hiding behind isn't a war crime.

Following the Laws of War has costs. The way you get countries to accept those costs is that following the Laws also has benefits. If you give the benefits to those who don't pay the costs, you destroy any reason to follow the Laws.

IOW, "Ralph", you, and people like you, are the biggest enemies of the Geneva Conventions, the Laws of War, and civilization, out there. Hamas and its civilians can have the benefits of the Laws of War, and be protected from "War Crimes", when, and only when, they start following the laws themselves.
1.6.2009 10:05pm
Greg Q (mail) (www):
In a space as confined as the Gaza strip, how can one expect milltary targets to be conveniently segregated?

Gee, I don't know, by not hiding inside of schools, or people's homes? I know, Hamas can go to all those settlements the Israelis dismantled, and set up there.

Of course, once they stop hiding behind women and children they'll be immediately slaughtered by the IDF, since the IDF, unlike Hamas, is actually competent. So what? Hamas doesn't have the "right" to win, any more than I have the right to go out and rob people so that I can have more money than I can legally obtain.
1.6.2009 10:10pm
Greg Q (mail) (www):
Sarcastro babbled:

Think of all those little Palestinian children-terrorists!

Well, let's see. When was the last time you complained about Hamas hiding behind those children, and making them legitimate targets of war? You haven't?

Then don't waste our time by pretending that you give a damn about them. because clearly you don't. All you care about is having another excuse to attack Israel.
1.6.2009 10:13pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Greg.
He's not the only one. They think they've got others fooled.
1.6.2009 11:00pm
TokyoTom (mail):
David, in your previous post you stated that "the risk of the suffering of innocents can't be the only criterion for judging a war", thus conceded that it is legitimately one criterion for judging a war.

Are you backing away from that?
1.7.2009 2:54am
TokyoTom (mail):

what is the justification from the point of view of the UNITED STATES for continued US funding of Israel's military actions? And, as relates to your post today, should the US not value Palestinian lives equally with Israeli lives when it is making these funding decisions?

I address the questions I choose to address, because it's my blog.


David gets to make his choices, and we get to draw our own conclusions about his lack of interest in discussing US interests as well as Israel's rights.

(Having just stumbled on them myself) I would note that the new J Street group appears to be providing a useful function in gathering Jewish and other opinions on both US interests and on long-term Israeli interests.

Ed Morrissey has given them this plug, by quoting David Schraub of Moderate Voice:


Pro-Israel writers, responding to such rhetoric, devote their time to defending the moral appropriateness of any Israeli action, to the exclusion of any long-term considerations about whether it ends up helping or harming Israeli interests (not to mention the interests of a lasting peace and liberation of the Palestinian people from occupation). This is why I’m such a fan of J Street: They call for Israel to ceasefire, not because Kadima is now the Middle East’s version of the Nazi Party — but because, based on their considered judgment, they don’t think that the operation actually gives Israel anything of substantial, long-term value, and instead simply entrenches the never-ending cycle of tit-for-tat that hasn’t gotten anywhere for decades.
1.7.2009 4:17am
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Tokyo.
Schraub is basing his world view on the presumption that the Confrontation States and their wackjob militants can be talked out of wanting to destroy Israel entirely.
He might not be exactly right, here.
But his suggestions, like everybody elses', consist of saying not to pay attention to what the terrorists and their supporting states say, and that, this time, giving them another bite will surely work, unlike the last half-dozen times.
Eventually, rational people can find room to disagree, based on things like reality.
But one gets tired of fighting all the time. All the time. Never ends. Eventually, rationalizing doing something which looks easier becomes easier. The catastrophic result down the road is easily dismissed. Mostly by demonizing those who keep pointing at it.
1.7.2009 10:38am
dave zimmerman (mail):
I was hoping someone would askme this question.

The following links should give you the information you asked for - at least it seemed like a request.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? cid=1221489040961&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
(space inserted after "?" to conform with 60 letter rule)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=89939

The system I was refering to was the Iron Fist. The last I saw of it was a demonstration that worked against an RPG in January 2008.

"Not that I'm sure it makes any difference."

It makes a differnce if Israel's aim is really to protect its civilians. Your comment above betrays the possibility that you might be as cynical about this claim as I am, but that you subscribe to a differnt set assumptions than I do.

I get the impression that the closest you have been to a war is at the movies, with popcorn and coke in hand. If you have any experience with martial arts, your sensei would have taught you that self-defense is self-defense only when all other options are no longer viable.

So my point stands: If Israel were truly concerned with saving Israeli lives, they have the technology to do it. The capability is there, and the obstacles, both in finances and the choice of systems, seem to be purely political.

The Palestinian rockets could even be viewed as a chance to enhance these capabilities, but the prevailing politics decree otherwise.
1.7.2009 12:53pm
Yankev (mail):

Unfortunately Palestinian tanks are banned under Oslo.
Then again, so was having a security force as large as the one Arafat y'sh established. Or letting the perpetrators of terrorist attacks into the security force. Or aiding, planning and carrying out attacks on Israeli civilians instead of detecting, preventing and punishing attacks. Or continuing anti-Israel and anti-Jewish incitement in elementary and high schools, TV, radio and the press.

Are we starting to see a pattern here?

For that matter, so was letting Hamas run in the elections.
1.7.2009 1:41pm
dave zimmerman (mail):
A good source, seemingly impartial, for anyone who wants an independant source, with no editorializing.

www.longwarjournal.org

The site includes two posts today on the tactical situation.
1.7.2009 3:05pm
TokyoTom (mail):
Schraub is basing his world view on the presumption that the Confrontation States and their wackjob militants can be talked out of wanting to destroy Israel entirely.

Obviously this is both a guess and a vast oversimplification. But none of Israel's neighbors is calling for its destruction, and Hamas certainly has no such ability.

his suggestions, like everybody elses', consist of saying not to pay attention to what the terrorists and their supporting states say, and that, this time, giving them another bite will surely work, unlike the last half-dozen times.

Really? Or are they based in looking at the failures of Israeli military interventions, the failure of its unilateral and unnegotiated withdrawal from Gaza, the failure of its harsh embargo to force Hamas from power, the failure of its long-time policy to prefer to deal with the corrupt Arafat/PLO and its Fatah successors over Hamas (which actually provides social services), and the consequences of those failures throughout the region, and for the US and Europe?

There are differences in interests between all of the "Confrontation States", their leaders and their citizens; a realist notes this and assesses the differences, the motivations for their behavior and their ability to put words into action.

But one gets tired of fighting all the time. All the time. Never ends.

Yes, one gets tired. From the US side, maybe a positive step would be to stop subsidizing so many sides, and let decision-makers bear a little bit more of the full costs of their own actions.

Another course of action is to realize that, where you cannot utter defeat your opponent, violence simple begets more.

Israeli terrorism and legal expert Amos N. Guiora had this to say last week:
What is the tactical game plan, and what are the strategic objectives? This must be the essence of the debate. These questions must be asked - and hopefully answered - while the fighting is ongoing. Shooting is not an excuse for not asking: "What's next?"

To re-occupy the Gaza Strip, as some in Israel have suggested, is beyond foolish. It would be a mistake of tragic proportions. To suggest that Hamas can be "defeated" is, as I have suggested elsewhere, a fantasy. Perhaps a nice one - but nevertheless a fantasy. ...

While Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan will continue to base their policies in accordance with their self-interests, there is an important confluence between those three nations and Israel. All have a vested interest in significantly minimizing the threat posed by Islamic extremism. After all, both Egypt and Jordan have festering unemployment that directly plays into the hands of long-simmering Muslim Brotherhood movements that plague all three, waiting in the proverbial wings.

President-elect Obama's test - perhaps his first - will be to galvanize the moderate Arab regimes to "step up to the plate" in response to Islamic extremism. The importance of Gaza is not strictly limited to Israel; far from it. The present military operation will affect not only Israeli elections scheduled for Feb. 10 but will also go a long way toward determining whether Mr. Obama can seize an opportunity.

Otherwise, the present IDF military operation will be "same old, same old," signifying that an extraordinary opportunity will be wasted. To act creatively in the face of never-ending conflict is the true test of leadership.


Eventually, rationalizing doing something which looks easier becomes easier. The catastrophic result down the road is easily dismissed.

Care to clarify what you're hinting at?
1.7.2009 10:52pm
TokyoTom (mail):
David, do you care to share with us how your legal, moral and practical caluculus is coming in light of the recent massive slaughter of civilians by the IDF in Gaza?

You have already indicated you have little interest in dicussing the cost and benefits to the US of Israel's actions, but I'm hoping you'll shares your views on ius ad bello aspects, and perhaps even the morality and wisdom, of Israel's actions.

I'm also curious what you think of the rather detailed commentary provided by former Israeli official Daniel Levy (who now seems to have the ear of Democrats, as Senior Fellow and Director of the Middle East Initiative at the New America Foundation and a Senior Fellow and Director of the Prospects for Peace Initiative at The Century Foundation).
1.8.2009 1:15am
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Tokyo.
Hamas has no such capability. Doesn't stop them from trying.
Iran has been quite specific and does have the capability, or will shortly. Obama's election guarantees Iran's nuclear weapons program will go on without effective opposition. Iran may be destroyed in the process, but they Mad Mullahs have said that's just fine with them.
I'm hinting at the position that getting tired of fighting all the time leads one to make irrational choices based on wishful thinking. Pointing out that the can has been kicked down the road a couple of years and will be worse than ever is not welcome. People who do that are called war mongers and baby killers and, in this case, Zionist Christian fundies anxious to begin the Rapture or fascist nutcases or any other thing useful for diverting attention from their arguments. Calling them that, and calling calling them that a job, is better than facing the possibility they're right.

The recent slaughter was finessed by Hamas, as you know. Problem for you is that we know you're smart enough to know.
You can't plausibly claim ignorance.
1.8.2009 9:01am
Yankev (mail):

the failures of Israeli military interventions, the failure of its unilateral and unnegotiated withdrawal from Gaza, the failure of its harsh embargo to force Hamas from power, the failure of its long-time policy to prefer to deal with the corrupt Arafat/PLO and its Fatah successors over Hamas (which actually provides social services), and the consequences of those failures throughout the region, and for the US and Europe?
Or to put it another way, when Israel talks, it's Israel's fault that the Arabs would rather kill Jews and abolish Israel than have peace, prosperity, trade and a state. When Israel fights, it's Israel's fault that the Arabs would rather kill Jews and abolish Israel than have peace, prosperity, trade and a state. When Israel builds towns where Arabs used to launch attacks on Israeli towns and cars, it's Israel's fault that the Arabs would rather kill Jews and abolish Israel than have peace, prosperity, trade and a state. When Israel dismantles those towns and turns them, along with valuable agricultural and industrial assets over to the Arabs who promptly dismantle them, it's Israel's fault that the Arabs would rather kill Jews and abolish Israel than have peace, prosperity, trade and a state. When Israel uses force to defend itself, putting its own soldiers at increased risk in order to reduce risk to Arab civilians who are deliberately placed in harm's way by cynical Arab governments and terror groups, it's Israel's fault that the Arabs would rather kill Jews and abolish Israel than have peace, prosperity, trade and a state. When Israel agrees to a three hour cease fire so that food and medical supplies can be brought in to enemy civilians, and enemy fighters divert the medical supplies to their own separate military hospitals and sell the food on the black market, leaving civilians in the lurch, all the while continuing to fire rockets at Israeli civilians during the cease fire, it's Israel's fault that the Arabs would rather kill Jews and abolish Israel than have peace, prosperity, trade and a state.

Okay, Tokyo, I think we get the picture.

I think we get the picture.

By the way, are you related to Tokyo Rose? Ever think of changing your name to Kan Yunis Rose?
1.8.2009 9:33am
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Yankev.
TT thinks he's fooling somebody. Anybody.
Not hardly.
1.8.2009 12:17pm
TokyoTom (mail):
I'm hinting at the position that getting tired of fighting all the time leads one to make irrational choices based on wishful thinking. Pointing out that the can has been kicked down the road a couple of years and will be worse than ever is not welcome.

Richard, you're still hinting, it seems.

WHO is "getting tired of fighting all the time" and may "make irrational choices"? What are those irrational choices? Are you talking about Israel improving its relations with Palestinians and Lebanese (and the rest of the world) by bombing Iran?

From a broader perspective, I would certainly agree that those caught up in fighting have a very difficult time getting past self-justifications and tit-for-tat reactions to actually move past fighting to productive relationships.

A complicating factor is the banal evil that our "leaders" capture and keep power by posturing against and raising fear over all of those other evil people - whether "existential" threats abroad or backstabbing, country-hating people who disagree with government policy at home.

Pointing out that the can has been kicked down the road a couple of years and will be worse than ever is not welcome. People who do that are called war mongers and baby killers and, in this case, Zionist Christian fundies

I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't understand your precise point - I've been suggesting that we shouldn't be kicking this can down the road any further as well, by funding the governments that keep themselves in power by playing political football with Palestinians.

TT thinks he's fooling somebody. Anybody. Not hardly.

Are you a mind reader, Richard? I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand your point. I certainly don't understand all the ins and outs of this problem, or profess to. I am trying to understand it better though - and certainly am NOT trying to "fool" anybody.

My remarks have been rather straightforward; please feel free to argue with me and to correct what you see as my mistakes. Surely with your superior knowledge and insights that shouldn't be so hard to attempt, even if my head remains thick. Do you lack sufficient energy for such an honest effort?
1.8.2009 11:14pm
TokyoTom (mail):
Oops, missed this:

The recent slaughter was finessed by Hamas, as you know. Problem for you is that we know you're smart enough to know.
You can't plausibly claim ignorance.


Which slaughter, Richard? The UN school? The house into which IDF solders had herded an extended family? Or the whole bombing and ground attack?

Hamas fired rockets, yes, and hides itself in an urban population. But did Hamas finesse the fact that there are 1.5 million people crammed into an area twice the size of DC? Sure Hamas is distasteful to deal with, but does that mean that Israel is NOT puling the trigger on its own attacks? Is it merely a blind automaton, acting reflexively and thus without moral (or other) responsibility?

By the way, I just ran into this interesting study (by Nancy Kanwisher, Johannes Haushofer &Anat Biletzki in Huff Po) that indicates that it has been Israel that has by far been responsible for breaking ceasefires with Hamas; does anyone have any more truthy information than this?

Thus the latest ceasefire ended when Israel first killed Palestinians, and Palestinians then fired rockets into Israel. ... we need to know if this case is atypical, or if it reflects a systematic pattern. ...

We analyzed the entire timeline of killings of Palestinians by Israelis, and killings of Israelis by Palestinians, in the Second Intifada, based on the data from the widely-respected Israeli Human Rights group B'Tselem (including all the data from September 2000 to October 2008).

We defined "conflict pauses" as periods of one or more days when no one is killed on either side, and we asked which side kills first after conflict pauses of different durations. As shown in Figure 2, this analysis shows that it is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict: 79% of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks (the remaining 13% were interrupted by both sides on the same day). In addition, we found that this pattern -- in which Israel is more likely than Palestine to kill first after a conflict pause -- becomes more pronounced for longer conflict pauses. Indeed, of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%, and it unilaterally interrupted 100% of the 14 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than 9 days.


Does this tell us anything about who is "finessing slaughter", Richard?
1.8.2009 11:36pm
TokyoTom (mail):
Yankev, thank you for allowing me to join your long pity party. It shows that you care what I think and I appreciate the honor.

It is of course somewhat spoiled by your childish and dishonorable ad hom attempt to imply from account name that my comments here are somehow treasonous. Good job.

I think we get the picture.

Do you? My point, of course, regarding the failures of Israeli actions was not to suggest that only Israel is at fault, but the rather straightforward one that Israel controls and is responsible for its own actions and ought to be considering the consequences of past actions when determining what to do next. Do you disagree? If you just wanted to whine, I understand.

Ever think of changing your name to Kan Yunis Rose?

Again, you honor me, this time by presuming knowledge I don't have. Can you explain your reference?
1.8.2009 11:49pm
TokyoTom (mail):
As a counterpoint to Yankev, I offer up the comments of another American traitor, Andrew J. Bacevich in today's Boston Globe on lessons for Israel and the US:

Israel's return to Gaza constitutes a tacit admission of strategic failure now stretching back four decades. As Barack Obama prepares to take office, that record of failure deserves careful consideration.

However deeply the Israeli army penetrates into Gaza and however long it stays, this much is certain: Operation Cast Lead will not put an end to violence between Israelis and Palestinians. No matter what this particular round of fighting may achieve, the conflict will continue. Indeed, the punishment inflicted on the residents of Gaza all but ensures its perpetuation. ...

However great the Israeli edge in tanks and fighter-bombers, demography rather than weaponry is likely to determine the conflict's ultimate outcome: That the Palestinian and Arab Israeli birthrate far exceeds the birthrate among Jewish Israelis is a fact with enormous strategic implications.

In the short term, the Israeli inclination is to ignore those implications. A prominent feature of Israel's military tradition is the idea of ein breira - Hebrew for "no choice."


I diagree with Bacevich in one regard: it appears that Israel's long-term intention as to Gaza may be that, by blocking all Palestinian access to Israel but surrendering the southern border, it can prevent a viable Palestinian state, turn Gaza into an Egyptian problem, and hope that misery and disorder (assisted by the blockade), will "encourage" Gazans to move towards more attractive places.
1.9.2009 12:22am
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Tokyo
What you know is that the party which arranges to fight from among civilians is morally and legally responsible for what happens to them. That's Hamas. You are not dumb enough to think the fact that the Israelis are pulling the trigger on various weapons changes that.
You know it. We know it. We also know you know it, which is the sticking point.
The Israeli citizens are getting tired of fighting. They can, some of them, rationalize giving the crocodile one last bite after which everything will be dandy. Those who point out this won't work, has never worked, and that the crocodile's founding documents explicitly say it isn't part of the plan are demonized.
Another item you know.
But it does provide you with cover and the peace party with partisans in Israel.
Some years ago, a historian noted that Churchill and FDR were nicer people than Hitler and Stalin, but the latter were better war leaders.
That is to say, they held their nations to the fight in circumstances of unimaginable horror, prinicipally by inflicting unimaginable horror on the population to keep control. Churchill and FDR could not, said the historian, have done that.
The Arabs fighting Israel are in the position of Stalin and Hitler. They have the mechanisms to wear out the Israelis, who are a democracy, and (evil) mechanisms to keep their societies at the fight. They are aided by such as you.
This is quite simple and to pretend it's all unknown to you is nonsense.
The population distribution in Gaza puts civilians in the middle of the fight? So? That does not change Hamas' responsibility. They can start a fight or not. They chose to start one which, they knew, would get civilians killed because they know people like you use dead civilians as tools of debate.
If Hamas had a choice to fight someplace like Rommel and the Brits did in the Western Desert where there were no civilians, they would not do it. They need civilians for shelter and for propaganda points.
And Tokyo Tom thinks this is quite clever.
1.9.2009 7:45am
Yankev (mail):
TT,

My point, of course, regarding the failures of Israeli actions was not to suggest that only Israel is at fault,
Your point, of course, was sandwiched among numerous distortions of history, recent events, and the law and morailty of warfare. Richard Aubrey has debunked most of them in detail, so there is no need for me to do so.

but the rather straightforward one that Israel controls and is responsible for its own actions and ought to be considering the consequences of past actions when determining what to do next.
Yes, and I hope they learn from their experience in letting the rest of the world stop their legitimate military actions when they appear to be succeeding, thereby virtually guaranteeing further and greater carnage in the future when those who are dedicated to Israel's destruction have finished re-arming and reorganizing. Sadly, civilians on both sides, as well as Israel's citizen soldiers, will pay the price.

As for the Tokyo Rose reference, it was not to suggest disloyalty to the US but rather to suggest functioning as a source of fascist (or in this case Islamist) propaganda. Sorry for any confusion I created. Kan Yunis is a town in Gaza.

The balance of your comment is not worthy of response.
1.9.2009 10:23am
TokyoTom (mail):
What you know is that the party which arranges to fight from among civilians is morally and legally responsible for what happens to them. That's Hamas.

Richard, we are talking past each other if you only want to argue law and justification, when I am trying to discuss consequences.

As for morality, humans have a wonderful ability to conclude not only that they are absolutely right, but those they disagree with are evil. Something to do with our tribal nature, I think. FWIW, I evidently disagree with on the morality of the Israeli government`s actions here, as well with US support for it. Not that it can`t be justified. I offer no justifications for Hamas, and would argue with their supporters if any of them were here.

The Israeli citizens are getting tired of fighting. They can, some of them, rationalize giving the crocodile one last bite after which everything will be dandy.

Then perhaps they ought to consider telling their political leaders, who seems to enjoy fighting, particularly as it may help them get elected. They also don`t particularly want their citizens or the rest of the world to see what they do.

Those who point out this won't work, has never worked, and that the crocodile's founding documents explicitly say it isn't part of the plan are demonized.

By whom? Hardly in the US, certainly. And if it`s in Israel, that`s politics, but from my uninformed perspective it seems that it`s the doves and others who repeatly point out that Israel`s harsh tactics don`t work and have never worked who are toothless and demonized. Hey, but better demonized than to be a Palestinian, right?

The Arabs fighting Israel are in the position of Stalin and Hitler. They have the mechanisms to wear out the Israelis, who are a democracy, and (evil) mechanisms to keep their societies at the fight. ... This is quite simple and to pretend it's all unknown to you is nonsense.

Sorry, but this actually made me laugh. The Palestinians are comparatively powerless next to Israel, which has striven to keep them divided and ill-governed, and for decades the damage to persons by Palestinians has been something like a tenth or less of deaths/injuries inflicted by Israel. When you compare damage to property the differences are much greater. All that they have is a willingness to keep on fighting, which is hardly surprising. And yet it`s those bull-headed people who men, women and children are killed and homes and economies are wrecked by Israel are the sole evil ones? Good for you.

Tired Israel citizens ought to consider trying to persuade their government to take steps - other than the impossible of utterly defeating the Palestinians and removing them from Gaza, Israel and West Bank - that will encourage Palestinians to stop fighting. Dealing with Hamas and lifting the punitive embargo when Hamas had stopped firing for months might have been productive steps.

They are aided by such as you.

What - I`m aiding the evil ones? How, by trying to have a conversation with you and other mensch like Yankel?

The population distribution in Gaza puts civilians in the middle of the fight? So? That does not change Hamas' responsibility.

Have I argued it does? I simply think that they choose to fight in the conditions that Israel has placed them in is to be expected, and think that Israel`s actions are counterproductive. You want to play self-justification; I`m talking about steps forward. Heck, I read somewhere this week that even the folks in Sderout have signed petitions opposing the Israel air and ground attacks.

They can start a fight or not. They chose to start one which, they knew, would get civilians killed because they know people like you use dead civilians as tools of debate. (my emphasis)

That you can pony up jaw-droppingly offensive stuff like this in response to my comments is pretty startling and sad, Richard. It`s not honorable, civil or deserved. Both David Bernstein and the Pope, as well as a whole range of other well-intentioned and principled people "use dead civilians as tools of debate". Presumable you know that just war theory as well as international law is quite concerned with civilian deaths.

If Hamas had a choice to fight someplace like Rommel and the Brits did in the Western Desert where there were no civilians, they would not do it. They need civilians for shelter and for propaganda points. And Tokyo Tom thinks this is quite clever.

You just ooze slime, don`t you Richard? Because the US and other governments study asymetrical warfare, does that mean they favor it or think it clever? What, exactly, can you expect from Palestinians BUT asymetrical approaches, particularly in Gaza which has 1.5 million people in an area twice the size of DC? And how many times do I say that I don`t approve of Hamas`s behavior?
1.9.2009 1:51pm
TokyoTom (mail):
Your point, of course, was sandwiched among numerous distortions of history, recent events, and the law and morailty of warfare.

Nice try, Yankel. My point about Israel`s responsibility for its own behavior was straightforward and sandwiched between nothing; rather it was the bread. You`re the one who chooses the pathetic pity party that Israel`s behavior is dictated by others.

Yes, and I hope they learn from their experience in letting the rest of the world stop their legitimate military actions when they appear to be succeeding

More of the same pity stuff. Israel makes its own choices; that others (including in the US) have differing views and try to influence Israel`s decisions is to be expected. On the substance, I disagree with you, and think that Israel`s "legitimate military actions" will cost it and us dearly.

As for the Tokyo Rose reference, it was not to suggest disloyalty to the US but rather to suggest functioning as a source of fascist (or in this case Islamist) propaganda. Sorry for any confusion I created.

I see; I`m not a traitor, but a fascist or Islamist propagandist - apparently in any case not a well-intended person engaging in an exchange of views - and you apologize for my confusion!

Oh, you are just so clever AND charming, Yankel. Insincere apology of course not accepted. How do you rationalize your obviously ridiculous and ungentlemanly slurs? If you really don`t want a real conversation, is an honorable silence so difficult?
1.9.2009 2:18pm
Richard Aubrey (mail):
Tokyo.
If you're not arguing law, but arguing consequences, you have a number of wars to consider. The losing sides took a hell of a lot of civilian casualties in WW II and, for example, Korea. The results of that were...?
Hamas does not have to fight. You know it. They choose to fight. You know it. Their choice gets civilians killed, which they know will happen. That means the whole thing is morally and legally on their shoulders. You know it.
Hamas may be powerless in conventional terms, but that's not the point. Hamas can keep doing what it's doing indefinitely, as can Iran, and Syria, without concern for war-weariness among their civilians. They have the mechanisms to keep it going. A percentage of the Israeli population is tired and easily manipulated into thinking that Hamas and Iran don't really mean what they say and things will be okay if we make this one last concession. Hamas doesn't have that problem.
I've worked with religious activists, none ranking as high as the Pope, and if there's a bunch more easily manipulated into kicking the can down the road, I haven't found it. And, habitually speaking in parable, hyperbole, metaphor, and bullshit, they can easily end up sounding like, say, Pat Buchanan. They have no concern for matters of right and wrong if they can get on the side of the one which is most effective at making itself out to be a victim.
Hmm. Sounds like liberals. So, although I respect the Pope for some of his other work, this is nonsense.
And you are justifying the use of human shields. That has no basis in the Just War Doctrine, nor in international law. You claim to think of consequences, but as Yankev and others have said, the unfortunate consequences we've seen before are a result of stopping too soon, mostly due to the double standard applied by people like TT.
Oh, yeah. Are you not using dead civilians as tools of debate?
Pointing it out is wrong? Nope. Busted. Deal.
In matters of assymetric warfare, if Hamas merely survives to make a statement from a studio in, say, Syria, they will look like victors who drove out the hated Zionists. And, having withdrawn, the Israelis will look like losers. Therefore, the IDF has a job to do whihc is more involved than an "incursion". I hope they know it.
Assymetric warfare can only succeed if the other side is less brutal. As has been pointed out, the Russians dealt with it, and nobody in Tibet is even thinking of it. If you can convince the IDF to stop too soon, you win. So does Hamas.
So, whatever your ostensible motivation, you and Hamas are on the same side effectively.
1.9.2009 3:20pm
TokyoTom (mail):
Richard, I see that you`re still talking, but it`s both a self-justifying whine and one that considers anyone who respectfully disagrees with you (and I`ve referred to here and the other thread a wide range of thoughtful Israelis, Jews abroad, and Americans on the right as well as left) as the "enemy".

You and Yankel both appear fundamentally immature, as instead of responding to my points about Israeli responsibility for their own actions, including a consideration about likely consequences and ways to break the cycle of violence, you insist on casting my remarks as a defense of Hamas, attacking strawmen (like twisting my reference to just war theorists and the Pope into support for religious activists) and insisting on my lack of bona fides.

You are both pathetic, insincere and inartful dodgers. Self-justifying and self-righteous guys like you are just a step away from those whom you hate them most, and are hardly true friends of Israel. Poor you, and poor Israel, forever "forced" to contribute to a cycle of violence that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for Israel and its neighbors to live in peace.

Now it`s time for people like me to take a break a wash up again from dealing with people like you. Toodles.
1.10.2009 12:26am

Post as: [Register] [Log In]

Account:
Password:
Remember info?

If you have a comment about spelling, typos, or format errors, please e-mail the poster directly rather than posting a comment.

Comment Policy: We reserve the right to edit or delete comments, and in extreme cases to ban commenters, at our discretion. Comments must be relevant and civil (and, especially, free of name-calling). We think of comment threads like dinner parties at our homes. If you make the party unpleasant for us or for others, we'd rather you went elsewhere. We're happy to see a wide range of viewpoints, but we want all of them to be expressed as politely as possible.

We realize that such a comment policy can never be evenly enforced, because we can't possibly monitor every comment equally well. Hundreds of comments are posted every day here, and we don't read them all. Those we read, we read with different degrees of attention, and in different moods. We try to be fair, but we make no promises.

And remember, it's a big Internet. If you think we were mistaken in removing your post (or, in extreme cases, in removing you) -- or if you prefer a more free-for-all approach -- there are surely plenty of ways you can still get your views out.