That's the question that some opponents of Israeli military action are asking defenders of this action. In fact, I've been asked this question directly more than once. The idea, obviously, is that given that the number of Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel exceeds the number of Israeli noncombatants at immediate risk from Hamas rockets, to defend Israeli military action one must logically believe that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian lives.
The easy response to this is to argue that there will never be peace between the Palestinians and Israel so long as Hamas, with its fanatical anti-Israel views and violent agenda, is allowed to act unmolested in Gaza. In the long-run, by creating the conditions for peace or at least quiet, the number of noncombatants saved in both Israel and Gaza by current Israeli military action will dwarf the short-term costs.
But that's the easy way out. Let's tackle the harder question, of whether Israel is required to, or even should, treat Palestinian noncombatants as equally valuable to its own noncombatant citizens. Let's say, for example, that the Israeli government's best guess is that military action will cost the lives of 1,000 Gazan civilians, but save the lives of 400 Israelis. (And let's assume arguendo that Hamas and not Israel is the "aggressor," so we can take off the table the argument that Israel doesn't have ANY right to engage in a military response.)
We have to start, I think, with a broader question. Are governments, in general, expected to act as if individuals who are outside their jurisdiction are "equally valuable" to their own citizens? The answer is clearly no. In practice, no government acts this way. Governments provide military protection, police protection, a justice system, food, shelter, medical care, etc., to their own citizens, especially poor citizens, and give little to the citizens of other countries, even when those citizens are far worse off on average. The most "Progressive" countries in the world, the Scandinavians, devote something like 2% of their budgets to their total foreign aid budgets to help billions of poor around the world, a figure obviously dwarfed by the money spent on helping their own small, well-to-do populations. Children are starving in Sudan and Bangladesh so an elderly Norwegian can enjoy a rejuvenating week at the spa paid for by his government! Aren't Sudanese and Bangladeshi lives worth more than the temporary comfort of a retired Norwegian?
Relatedly, no country in the world has open borders. The blessings of American citizenship, for example, are available only to a select few hundred million, and the rest of the world is treated as if they are "less valuable" by our government.
This goes to the basic heart of the implicit social contract between government and its citizens in a democratic society. The citizens pay taxes and obey government dictates, and in return the government fulfills its obligations to them. Protection from foreign enemies is among the most basic functions of government. Any government that fails to engage in such protection because it believes that noncombatants on the other side are equally valuable to its own noncombatants would be violating that social contract, as well as acting contrary to the actions of every government in human history.
In protecting its own citizens, a government still should take moral considerations into account. That's the point of conventions and treaties on war, treatment of prisoners, etc. But even under the most generous interpretations of international law, there is no such established principle as the critics of Israel are asserting. Indeed, the establishment of such a principle would not only prevent states from engaging in the expected defense of their citizens, it would undermine the entire concept of the nation-state, which is premised on the idea that nations have fundamental duties to their own citizens that do not extend to citizens of other states. One can argue that the whole idea of nation-states is misbegotten and immoral, and in my libertarian heart and mind I tend to agree. But that's not the world we live in, and, even if that's one's preferred world, there is no particular reason to expect Israel to be the first and only nation-state to abdicate its sovereign responsibilities. Put another way, the Scandinavians could justly criticize Israel for not having "proportionate" civilian casualties as soon as they establish an open immigration policy for residents of impoverished Third World nations.
In the absence of relevant treaties, exactly where the moral line should be drawn in causing noncombatant civilans casualties in protecting a country's own citizens is a very interesting question, one that was debated on this blog back in 2006 (I can't find the link right now). I don't remember coming to any firm conclusion then, but I'm quite sure the answer isn't that the ratio has to be one to one.
So yes, as a matter of abstract morality, Israeli lives are worth the same as Palestinian lives which are worth the same as Iranian lives which are worth the same as Mexican lives and so forth and so on. But that question obfuscates more than it illuminates. The real question is, is it either realistic or even desireable to expect nation-states to act as if their own citizens' lives are no more valuable than the lives of citizens of other countries. If the answer to both questions is yes, the argument of Israel's critics is really an argument to abolish the nation-state as it currently exists, which makes the argument rather superfluous to the specifics of the fighting in Gaza.
I think you have an extra "not" in there.
To answer the question, you have to ask it properly. That is, one must ask that question not only of Israel, but also Hamas.
They could have easily foreseen, and may well have intended, that their continued rocket attacks on Israel would lead to just this end.
So, one must ask them: how much to you, as Palestinians, value Palestinian lives?
If a government doesn't value the lives of its own citizens higher than those of its enemies, it won't exist for long.
Frankly this is a really silly question.
You attack a country, you take your chances.
The whole "proportional response" nonsense is utter bullshit and reflective of people who simply cannot be taken seriously.
The logical end of the tactics and strategies demanded by some of Israel is the destruction of Israel and the death or displacement of its citizens.
Also, a premise of your post is that Palestinians are not Israeli nationals (in moral terms, not legal ones). Since they do not have their own state, and Israel has de facto military control over their territory, one might argue that they are more properly thought of as a rebellious population as opposed to a foreign one. I am not sure what to think about that myself.
I think this is an excellent point.
Moreover, Professor Bernstein, I believe your post is addressing a straw man, as I do not think that anyone here is claiming that the Israeli government must follow a one-to-one correspondence. Rather, I have seen (and made) the must easier argument that it is wrong to kill hundreds to save handfuls. A one-to-one correspondence would be a much harder position to defend, but at this point it is not pertinent.
Also, I do not think the analogy to immigration is really fair, because AFAIK, legal and moral analysis recognizes a difference between letting bad things happen to other people and causing bad things to happen to other people.
For example, while I am not legally obligated to feed other people's kids, even if I feed my own, as a legal matter I am not allowed to kill those other kids.
And while I may or may not be morally obligated to feed people's kids, depending on the situation, I believe I am morally forbidden to kill them, too. Unless there is a strong justification.
Obviously, there can be gray areas, but I think those principles are pretty widely accepted.
As far as I can tell, the moral argument against Israel's recent bombardment of Gazans is not simply that Israel is morally obligated to help Gazans. (That argument is frequently made, but mostly in the context of Israel's choice to occupy Gaza and/or prevent Gazans from sovereignty.) Rather, the moral argument is that Israel is morally obligated to refrain from killing them, at least without good justification -- and in my book, a threat amounting to a single car accident's worth of Israeli victims per year may not be sufficient justification for killing hundreds of Gazans.
Grrrr.
Latinist and Ralph: The U.S. and others could logically demand that Israel treat Palestinians as being equally valuable to Israelis only if the U.S. and others are willing to live by the same principle when applied to their own foreign and domestic policies,which they emphatically are not.
I think the true analogy would be: Is the US prepared to live by the principle that other nations would treat domestic and foreign lives equally, when the US does not do so for itself? That's the parallel, and I think the US could live with that.
I think all this obscures the key issue, however, which is that Hamas bears responsibility for civilian lives lost in Gaza. They were the cause of the Israeli strike, which never would have happened with a ceasefire. They put Israel in a situation where, to protect its own civilians, Israel had to kill Palestinians. The lost lives are truly at the feet of Hamas.
Just pointing out that this principle can be used both ways.
I don't think this is right. If Israel is putting an understandably high value on its own citizens, then the US shouldn't blame it, I guess, and we shouldn't go around saying that they're a bunch of callous racist so-and-sos. But if the US is supporting Israel in various ways, why shouldn't it ask in return for what the US (and not Israel) wants? You seem to be saying that the US can only demand of Israel things that Israel would want to do anyway, which seems silly to me. What are demands for, then?
And I'm not saying that the US should demand that Israel act by certain universal principles all the time; just that the US should demand, in particular cases, that Israel do what the US wants, and that the US should want things without placing a special value on Israelis as opposed to Palestinians.
That does sound like a one-to-one argument. Do you have a link, so we could see the context of the argument?
Considering today's rockets sent by the Hamas over Israeli territory could escalate, perhaps even fathering tomorrow's wmds hitting Israeli civilians, one could argue the actual military intervention to be a necessity in order to prevent a greater death toll in a near future. In addition to the fact - as mentioned by another commentor - the low considerations the other side (Hamas) seems to have for for at least the Palestinian civilians they are hiding behind, we can easily come to the conclusion the military operation could lead, on the long run, to saving Palestinian lives as well. The actual victims being the unfortunate price to pay for pacification to be achieved. But there are many 'if's, of course.
This being said, I find the Israeli army/government to be directly responsible for the Palestinian casualties. The same cannot be said about Scandinavian responsibility when it comes to Darfur's victims. Your assertion in that matter is utterly over the top, we need not to explain why direct and indirect causations should not be addressed similarly.
Thanks. (Fortunately for me, I said no one here was advocating such a position ...)
I can see the inference being drawn, but I'm not sure it's exactly the same.
That's quite a bit different than the straight up assertion that he was arguing that Israel should give the same value to a Lebanese life as a Israeli life.
Even if he had a point, I think he kind of destroys it there. How are you going to judge "serious efforts" in the context of any war, much less a war that is in such close proximity to civillian populations.
He borders on implying that Israel targeted the house in question maliciously, It's much more likely that even if Hezbollah had never used the house, Israel just had a failure of intelligence and believed the house was a target. I seriously doubt such a mistake counts as a war crime even if people die.
That's interesting, but under international law, combatants are supposed to be segregated from non-combatants. The fact that Hamas combatants are not segregated places the blame on them, under international law.
How long does anyone think it will take the Palestinians to kill 400 Israelis? At the current rate? Four Israeli casualties during the period of the Israeli bombardment versus how many Palestinians?
Has the concept of "For every one of us, a hundred of you" become acceptable?
I think it's beside the point.
Israel isn't *deliberately* killing 100 Gazan civillians to save 1 Israeli civillian, they're (I'm assuming here, but I think it's safe) Hamas military targets that incidentally or deliberately are within populated civillian areas.
If you're targeting a military target in a civilian area, the question is whether the military target is worth the cost taking out, not how many civillians will die in the process.
If killing many civillians has a large negative cost, it may not be worth it, but in many cases it may be.
You have a duty to provide care for your kids so that they don't die. You have fewer obligations to children that are not yours.
But you are of course correct that you have the same duty to avoid actively killing children, whether or not they're yours.
I think this is a dodge. Israel (presumably) thought long and hard ahead of time about its planned bombardment and invasion, knew that civilians would die even if Israel took steps to minimize such deaths, and went ahead anyway. That's deliberate killing.
I will agree that both for moral and political reasons, Israel likely does not desire Gazan civilian deaths (while the the Hamasmen firing rockets do desire Israeli civilian deaths). But to me, whether an accepted-but-regretted killing is morally better than a desired one depends on the purpose for taking the actions that inexorably lead to the killings. Which gets us right back to counting the bodies on both sides.
But this type of logic merely comforts the mind--it doesn't get us anywhere. This is because while the Israeli-centric point of view is a perfectly legitimate point of view, it is not the only legitimate point of view. The Palestinians have their own point of view.
For example, the Palestinian point of view may well be that a Palestinian life is worth just as much as an Israeli life. You concede that this is a legitimate moral proposition; the refutation is simply that the Israeli government can hardly be expected to follow through on the logical consequences of the proposition. If so, how can you expect the Palestinians and Hamas to follow through on the logical consequences of the Israeli point of view?
And yes, there's still PR value to dead civilians, but in that would be rolled up into whether Israel values Palestinian lives. There's little objective difference between valuing lives for their own sake, or because failing to value them brings undesirable consequences.
The US Army has had rapid reaction counter-battery technology capability for thirty years. It involves radar and artillery working in tandem. IDF has the technology, based on sensors and rockets, to defend its tanks against RPGs (both faster and closer, hence shorter reaction time)than what the Palestinians use to devastate Israel. From what I have seen of the bottle rockets used by the Palestinians, the IDF could defend Israel if they just would take up skeet shooting as a hobby - assuming that they are not just seeking casus belli.
Too expensive? It depends on what currency you want to spend.
Hell no. The lives of terrorism supporters aren't worth anything at all. The lives of decent human beings are worth something.
If you live in a building where Hamas is storing weapons, or from which Hamas hsa launched attacks, are you a legitimate and valid military target. If you are part of a demonstration supporting Hamas'es indiscriminate attacks on civilians, you are a terrorist, and a legitimate target.
If you attack any Hamas member who tries to violate the Laws of War near you, then are aren't a legitimate target for the Israeli military. If you don't try to stop Hamas from violating the Laws of War near you, and you get killed in an Israeli attack, you deserve it, because you are an accessory to those violations of the Laws of War.
In short: If you want to be treated as an innocent civilian, you have to actually be an innocent civilian. No person who has sat back and watched as Hamas violates the Laws of War is an innocent civilian. They are, in fact, legitimate targets.
What's that, you say? Hamas will kill them if they object to Hamas'es terrorist attacks? Do tell. So, when is that last time you protested against the way Hamas treats Palestinians who don't want to be made accessories to its terroristic actions? You haven't? Then you have no legitimacy with which to complain about any Israeli actions against Palestinian "civilians".
People are asking Palestinians not to launch occasionally deadly attacks on Israel. That's not a complex request, nor one that is difficult to comply with. But the failure to comply brings these consequences. Hamas knows it could save all these Palestinian lives but chooses not to do so.
Currently, their means are limited. Has anybody seen a guarantee that their means will remain limited?
If so, was the guarantee signed by, say, the UN?
What happens when Hamas acquires more efficient means?
Will their stated goal soften in conjunction with their increased killing power?
Whether Hamas is purposely colocating its facilities with civilians or is unable to avoid it due to population density is irrelevant. If the latter, the resulting civilian casualties are still their fault, morally and legally. Knowing what would happen, they went ahead. Thus,they willed civilian casualties. Of course, civilian casualties are infinitely more useful to them than rockets, which is why the colocation.
I know we demand more of civilized societies, et tedious cetera. But to go from that to suggesting barbarians are not actually committing crimes--thus response should be limited--is a stretch which some have attempted. Even if Hamas is, as Mark Steyn puts it, putting the crucifixion back in Easter and is a contender for this year's b\Barbarian Stakes, we still can call what they do a crime. To try to avoid that means trying to coerce Israel into not responding. "No crime, see. What's to worry?"
Rocketing Israel is a crime. Call Hamas too benighted to know what they do if you wish. But don't imply this means Israel is precluded from responding or the US is precluded from making a judgment.
Think of all those little Palestinian children-terrorists! Sometimes killing based on status is the only way to truly achieve peace.
For those of us outside Israel whose economic trade and military aid enable that strong military, should WE steer our foreign policy on the basis that Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli lives? Personally I think the answer is no, which by all means ought to mean more restrictions on how US military aid can be used by countries like Israel.
In the absence of a strong Palestinian state with a strong and effective army and police force, it is a difficult request to comply with. The PA is incapable of controlling radical elements. Until then, such a request will be impossible to comply with, not just difficult.
I don't think that needs to be a part of hte equation, but when our aid is being used over decades to inflict massive harm on the Palestinian people, I think we need to have more say on how US military aid is used. This operation is of limited issue. However, over the first and second intifadas, the number of Palestinian civilian casualties were many times what the Israeli ones were. Over time, this is a more compelling argument that our support is prolonging the conflict and standing in the way of resolution.
Believe it or not I am actually more sympathetic to Israel's side of this dispute. But nothing in this situation is as simple as asking "Palestinians not to launch occasionally deadly attacks on Israel." The Palestinians can easily reply that they are asking Israel to stop their "occasionally deadly attacks on" Gaza that is happening right now. And please do not reply with a childish "the Palestinians started it first", since that is an invitation to trace back a vicious cycle of violence and historical grievances that will get us absolutely nowhere.
I do think there is a difference between Hamas's deliberate civilian attacks and Israel's inevitable collateral damage. But that is a moral distinction that I think others reasonably can and do disagree with.
"This being said, I find the Israeli army/government to be directly responsible for the Palestinian casualties. The same cannot be said about Scandinavian responsibility when it comes to Darfur's victims. Your assertion in that matter is utterly over the top, we need not to explain why direct and indirect causations should not be addressed similarly."
I think we need not explain why sought(Hamas targets innocents) and regretted(Israel tries to shoot around civilians) deaths should not be addressed similarly.
Although come to think of it, Hamas seems pretty happy when Arab civilians die, so I guess every civilian death is similar in that respect.
Trying to be sarcastic but the point is that Hamas teaches children to be terrorists. They teach very young children that becoming BOMBs is a GOOD thing.
They elected Hamas. They knew what they were getting. They support what Hamas is doing. They are legitimate targets.
Sorry. Everything that comes out of Gaza shows that they support terrorism. They use their own children as decoys and blow them up as well as target them. They place no value on their own lives or their childrens lives. Why should anybody else place any value on their lives.
Final questions.
If the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel would Israel continue to attack Gaza and the West Bank?
If the Israelies stopped attacking the Palestinian would the Palestinian continue to attack Israel.
Those two questions determine who the attackers are. The answers are very clear. It has been 60 years since the creation of Israel. Whatever Israel does to the terrorists is fine. When the Palestinians recognize the right of Israel to exist and stop attacking Israel THEN and ONLY THEN should anybody care about Palestinian deaths.
Where that idea came from is people misinterpreting the word "disproportionate"; it's not actually an idea that critics of Israel are promoting, as far as I know. Really, proportionality is supposed to mean making sure that the amount of harm you do doesn't outweigh the benefit of the goal you're trying to accomplish. Which is a much more difficult, easily contested calculation that "casualties suffered vs. inflicted," but has the advantage of actually making some kind of sense.
IMO it's not an idea that deserves to be taken seriously.
It's simply a pretext to denigrate either the United States or Israel. I can't recall seeing it in any other context.
That is not what you said. You said "the Palestinians" rather than "Hamas." If you are asking for Hamas to stop the attacks that is one thing and not hard to comply with, but if you are asking "the Palestinians" to do the same, that is not realistic.
Precisely. But some of the commenters hereabouts are fearful and wonderful researchers who, even now, may be finding examples to confound you. Bet they'll show up any time.
Aaaany time.
At all.
Pretty quick.
Um, I gotta go, but I'm sure the examples will be here when I return.
The purported goal of the invasion is to stop Israeli casualties, just as it has been for the last fifty years. But the casualties keep happening, because Israel is the most potent recruiting agent the Islamic radicals have. The next generation of the families who have suffered casualties will live for revenge, maybe die for it. Unless you wipe out the families completely - absent some outside facttor, whether morality or world opinion, I suppose that is do-able.
All the invasions, incursions, blitzkriegs have done nothing to enhance Israeli security, or they would not occur so frequently.
Israel has the capbility to make the the Palestinian rockets ineffective, but chooses not to develope it.
But that's not the question that needs to be asked here. The proposed justification for Israel's action is that it will stop Hamas from launching rockets, or at least hinder it substantially. If the action won't accomplish that end (and I don't know the answer to that), then it's surely wrong-headed no matter how many innocents get killed. If it might bring about some kind of lasting cease-fire, then it's probably worth it from the Israeli standpoint.
Suppose ten people are attacking me with the intent to kill me. Is it OK for me to kill all ten? How about killing one hundred people who are attacking me and intend to kill me? One thousand? At what point do I have an obligation to put down my weapons and let the attackers kill me? Does anyone know the number?
You quite miss the point. Of course you have the right to kill every person trying to kill you.
The question is how many uninvolved, innocent bystanders may you rightfully kill whilst dispatching the attackers.
On a more serious note, the parallel between people and nations totally holds. Especially because lethal force is always necessary - when you're a badass.
Even if the other side's kinda weak and emaciated. The Rule of Badass makes no exceptions!
That's a personal judgment. If you're a pacifist and believe that no amount of violence done against you justifies you responding in kind, then you die for your beliefs. I can respect that. At least you practice what you preach.
To me, there is no number. If a mob of indeterminate size is surrounding me with the intent to do me harm, I fight back until I am out of ammunition. Then until I can no longer stab, swing, punch, kick or bite.
Those are moral judgments left to the individual to decide. I have no moral obligation whatsoever to lay down my arms if those intent on doing me harm have no rational reason, directly or indirectly, to come and kill me.
Now if I attacked them and they were coming to attack in response, perhaps I should lay down my arms as an act of contrition. Would they accept it? Or should I allow them to kill me? Provided my act was heinous enough, a moral person should. Whether one would remains an open question.
In the absence of any logical reason for their violence towards me, I would fight as long as I had breath.
Did you really only just notice that that's what we're arguing for?
...which makes the argument rather superfluous to the specifics of the fighting in Gaza.
Well, superfluous except for the fact that the specifics of the fighting in Gaza provide one powerful illustration of the evils wrought by the nationalist mentality and the current system of nation-states.
(And before somebody asks: yes, the evils of French nationlism, Palestinian nationalism, Turkish nationalism, Malay nationalism, Russian nationalism, and so forth are all worthy of criticism as well, and in many cases are worse than the evils of Israeli nationalism, and I'll be happy to mention how bad those things are if the issue comes up.)
Some may recall how that worked out...
Okay. But the point is about its distribution. Are there a number of empty areas from which rockets could be launched and bunkers built for ammo storage? If so, that's where the action ought to be. If not, if the distribution is such that there are no empty areas, then colocation is unavoidable. In the latter case, choosing to go ahead means choosing civilian deaths. In the case of avoiding empty areas, that means choosing civilian deaths.
If Gaza is bereft of areas from which to fight without getting civilians killed, then they ought not fight. Or if they do, the rest of us are not bound to pretend it's Israel's fault.
Aside from perhaps a park or two, (and maybe a parking lot) there are awfully few areas within DC proper where one could drop several 500lb bombs and not cause some civillian casualties.
Establishing that model provisionally, as David does, and then saying it would be unfair or hypocritical if the US conditioned its relationship with Israel upon its own judgment of the relative worth of human life, such that those judgments suit the interests of Americans -- well, that's an absurdity, and frankly, more of an Israeli-centered theory of ethics than a state-centered theory. Israeli is free to say an Israeli life is more important than a Palestinian life, but America is not free to condition its relationship with Israeli on its own view of the relative worth of Palestinian or Israeli life, even if that view is in the US national interest?
That reasonong takes us right back where we presumably began: we're right, you're wrong.
Your post considers the issue from the point of view of the Israeli government and citizenry. Isn't that irrelevant here, in a discussion primarily among U.S. citizens?
The question you continually fail to address (raised by Greenwald last week) is: what is the justification from the point of view of the UNITED STATES for continued US funding of Israel's military actions? And, as relates to your post today, should the US not value Palestinian lives equally with Israeli lives when it is making these funding decisions?
People have repeated asked Mr. Bernstein (and commenters) to explain what strategic importance that Israel has for the US. No response except for the sound of crickets.
Simply put, there isn't any. No pipelines go through there that we need, Israel doesn't produce large amounts of strategic element, etc. and the US doesn't need access to any Israeli territory to stage attacks (esp. when we have such a huge presence in Iraq.)
Of course, the unspoken answer is that there is some "bond" between Israel and the US because of religion or something, esp. among wingnut Christians who think they need Israel to flourish and produce red calves or some such nonsense to bring on the appearance of the messiah. I guess one could discuss the merits of these view. But they are not "strategic" reasons.
Really? Do they actually "have the capability" or is this a "car of tomorrow" argument?
Not that I'm sure it makes any difference.
I think we need not explain why sought(Hamas targets innocents) and regretted(Israel tries to shoot around civilians) deaths should not be addressed similarly
Israel cannot claim with a straight face that it is trying to "shoot around civilians" when it knowingly drops bombs on the homes of Hamas leaders with full knowledge that there are 18 innocent family members inside the home. Nor can it claim to be "shooting around" when it launches bombs at crowded neighborhoods. Instead, it's clear that Israel is "shooting AT" civilians. You can argue that Israel is justified in shooting at civilians (although you would have a hard time explaining why your arguments don't also apply to Hamas), but you cannot seriously claim that Israel is not currently shooting at civilians and intending* to kill them.
*Intent: purposeful, knowing, or with reckless disregard...
The casualties are mostly other people in the neighborhoods, though.
No, it doesn't. It's a pretty simple question: do we as humans all have human rights? You're, of course, right to disagree and believe in the creed: I love Israel, right or wrong.
"The real question is, is it either realistic or even desireable to expect nation-states to act as if their own citizens' lives are no more valuable than the lives of citizens of other countries. If the answer to both questions is yes, the argument of Israel's critics is really an argument to abolish the nation-state as it currently exists, which makes the argument rather superfluous to the specifics of the fighting in Gaza."
Critics of the Gaza invasion believe it is wrong that Israel bombs Palestinian villages with a lot of civilian victims. They're not into some philosophical tract discussing the legitimacy of the nation state. How far off can one be?
Also, the nation state exists not because humans are unequal in a moral sense, but because humans are part of very diverse groups (language, race, religion, etnicity). That stuff is hard to overcome. Humanity makes similar people prefer to live amongst themselves. We didn't form nation states, because Danes believe other Danes are superior to Germans or Brits.
That's also why mass immigration and multiculturalism will never work either. We need nation states, so we're not constantly at each other's throats, you know, like, say, Jews and Palestianians.
Fair enough. However, I would point out it suggests that your whole purpose of blogging is to defend Israel, and that you won't blog about issues which get a little more murky.
BTW, I am in the process of writing my congressmen asking for more controls on US military aid to Israel given the ongoing hostilities between Israelis and Palestinians and the problems which befall Israeli Arabs. I am asking for the following as a condition of future support:
1) All high court decisions which have not been implemented because they favor Arabs MUST be implemented and
2) The recommendations in the Or Commission's report MUST be fully implemented.
None of these address the Palestinian issue directly, but seek to prevent Israel from continuing to be a state where Jews are first-class citizens and Arab citizens are subject to tremendous and illegal discrimination.
Israel is a vibrant technological democracy that contributes greatly to US economic and geopolitical goals. The Palestinians are a sponge for foreign money. It's pretty clear where the US should stand.
"Contributes greatly to US economic and geopolitical goals," like:
- creating immense hatred for us among hundreds of millions of people
- sucking down billions of dollars of our taxpayer dollars every year
- fueling terrorist attacks and generations of jihadists motivated primarily by resentment of our policies toward Israel
So... what exactly has Israel done for us lately that justifies screwing over our foreign policy so thoroughly?
Another perspective: the I/P conflict is used as an inspiration for terrorist recruiters and it stokes the animosity towards Americans from Islamic people (who nontheless don't do much for the Palestinians). After all, "support for Israel" is a banner issue that explains Arab discontent and anger toward America. Therefore, it's pretty clear where the US should stand.
Unfortunately, it's not that simple.
Indeed.
And the workable alternative is?
You can not just wish away "the nationalist mentality", especially in places like Gaza &Israel. The reality is that you have at least two distinct nations of people who share little but a sense of mutual loathing and historical grievance. And as long as the political boundry between the conflict's participants is believed to be hazy, indistinct, and subject to revision, the fighting will continue, at least until one side or both is exhausted enough to make serious concessions.
You seem to have redefined "intent" to have a much lower state of culpability than its usual meaning. I do not disagree with your view that Israel sometimes knows with reasonable certaintythat its actions will result in civilian deaths and at other times knows there is a substantial risk that its actions will result in civilian deaths. At least in criminal law, there's a distinction between intending a result, knowing a result is reasonably certain to occur, and knowing there's a substantial risk of a result occuring. I think those same distinctions are useful inthinking about the morality of actions. Let's not confuse issues by redefining the standard meaning of terms. As to whether Israeli leaders actually conciously desire to kill Palestinian civilians is a much more difficult question.
A strong and viable Palestinian state with a strong and viable armed forces in a negotiated peace with Israel.
Absent a PA army, it is impossible for them to crack down on the armies of the political parties, so there is no way to make the will of the people for peace enacted.
What US economic and geopolitical goals does Israel contribute to in any way, let alone enough to offset the massive PR hit we take in the Arab and Muslim worlds (and to a lesser extent just about everywhere else)? As for being a sponge for foreign money, there's little question which of these two are soaking the US.
It's noteworthy, the willingness of Bernstein to write a lengthy and even-handed post in an effort to answer a question no one is asking, so as to avoid answering a question that many critics of this campaign are asking, which is whether the cost in Palestinian lives is out of proportion to the gains in Israel's national security. And actually, that matter is offhandedly addressed in the next to last paragraph as an "interesting question." Interesting, but not compelling enough to address over a strawman argument.
The Intel team in Haifa designed the latest microprocessor cores. That alone is enough for me.
As pointed out earlier, Palestinian society is far ahead of even the Saudis in basic stats like literacy and infant mortality. In the absence of spoilers like Hamas, they could have already had a real, productive society.
Intel Corp deserves a certain amount of credit for helping foster real multiculturalism in its Israeli programs (Druze, Muslim, and Jewish programs for example, are sponsored by them).
Unfortunately, they have a greater commitment to plurality of the culture than the Israeli government does, given the attempts in 2007 to prevent all Arab MK's from seeking re-election.
But, David's post does bring up some highly relevant issues:
(1) is Israel complying with its obligations under international human rights law with respect to how it is responding to Hamas in the Gaza strip?
(2) how should a nation-state such as Israel respond to a group, such as Hamas, that is not bound by international human rights laws or treaties, and is not following them in how it is conducting military actions?
(3) how should the US value the impact of Israel's actions in Gaza on its foreign policy in determining its policy towards Israel and the region?
The first two issues have vexed the US in the global war on terror. There are no easy answers for Israel either.
The third issue is really whether the US gets more out of its continued support of Israel than it is paying for in other ways --financially, through aid to Israel, and in security terms, because the US could be a bigger target for terrorist attacks because of its alliance.
I would argue that the US' own actions in invading Iraq probably make us a much bigger target for terrorist attacks than does our support for Israel. So, ironically, there is now a lower marginal cost to a foreign policy that supports Israel ---i.e., they already hate us and target us---, so supporting Israel has fewer drawbacks now than it did 20 years ago.
One option would be to suggest that Egypt and Jordan should take on administrative, security, and nation-building roles, and should be seen as temporary occupying powers. However, for this to work, IMO, the 67 borders, with no exceptions for settlements, would need to be used as the guide.
I don't have insider knowledge of what is discussed in the inner circles of the CIA, NSA, Pentagon and the offices of the President and President-Elect...but I'm assuming that when international diplomatic pressure fails and Iran is about to get The Bomb, we'll look to Israel to take care of the problem the same way they did with Saddam and Osirak. We will of course issue a strongly worded statement of disapproval after the bombing is complete, as will many other very grateful nations.
In other words, it is reasonably within the scope of US strategic interests to support the only functioning democracy in the Middle East, especially given that democracy's pro-Western and pro-US bias.
Absent a PA army, it is impossible for [the PA] to crack down on the armies of the political parties, so there is no way to make the will of the people for peace enacted.
What do you think Israel is doing right now? Right about this time, Mahmoud Abbas must feel like Churchill did when he heard about the bombing of Pearl Harbor — it's a terrible tragedy, but it just saved him and all his people. If Israel can keep this up for a few more weeks, Fatah's reconquest of Gaza will be a cakewalk. Then Israel will have an opportunity to sit down and negotiate with a Palestian government that actually recognizes its right to exist.
Abbas needs to return to Gaza on the back of a Palestinian tank, not an Israeli one. Unfortunately Palestinian tanks are banned under Oslo.
I would also point out that Ha'aretz is reporting that hundreds of Hamas members held by the PA in the west bank have been freed since this conflict began, so my thinking is this is a little more complex in terms of Palestinian politics than you suggest.
I hope you realize that people make these arguments because Israel actually responds, sometimes, to moral outrage. That's one of things that separates it from Hamas. I suppose at some point, there would arise a situation when even you would say that Israel went too far. For example, exterminating the entire Gaza population would probably stop the rockets from being launched. And it would simply save Israeli lives at the cost of more Palestinians. But I doubt anyone would be in favor of it. Nor can I imagine Israel doing this. (On the other hand, if they had the means, I could easily imagine Israel's enemies doing it to her.)
What specific law? Enacted by whom? Obligating Israel how?
A response to their essay can be found in the Israeli philosophy journal 'Philosophia', vol. 36, no. 2, June 2008. The author draws on philosophical analyses of 'compatriot preference' to explain that while such a preference makes sense in most cases, there are instances when a state actually has greater obligations to non-citizens, especially those which are under its tutelage, than it does to its citizens.
Having read his comment, it's clear his true question is about the proportionality of the response, not about whether Palestinian and Israeli lives are of equal value. Leiter presumes the disproportionality of the conflict, and that you can support it only as being proportional if Palestinian lives are worth far less than Israeli lives.
Again, I'm not really sure what this discussion is intended to illuminate. Clearly, every government on Earth regards the lives of their own citizens as more valuable than the lives of citizens of other nations. We agree that this is a subjective valuation, not an objective one, as international law (or really, law in general) makes clear. Regardless, I still don't see anyone, Leiter included, making the argument that Israel is only permitted to respond to Hamas' unjustified attacks by killing an equal number of Palestinians as are killed in rocket attacks. A nation defending itself is clearly entitled to inflict more harm on an aggressor than the aggressor inflicts, because the defending nation has moral authority to do so in that it didn't initiate the hostilities. But once again the question arises...how many more citizens of the aggressor is the defending nation allowed to kill to prevent the attacks? Or in other words, an argument about proportionality. Which in its substance, is only glancingly addressed by the second to last paragraph of this post.
I think the fools are the people who think this is the relevant question, or even an important question.
Since Hamas purposely manufactures, stores and fires its rockets and other munitions in civilian centers, including Mosques and homes, why is this question being asked only of Israel? Why doesn't the MSM repetitively ask this question during news casts?
Likewise, the following table reflects the number of rockets Hamas has fired into Israeli civilian centers per year:
2001 - 4
2002 - 35
2003 - 155
2004 - 281
2005 - 179
2006 - 946
2007 - 896
2008 - 1,212
And following is the numbers of mortars Hamas has fired into Israeli civilian centers per year:
2001 - 245
2002 - 257
2003 - 265
2004 - 876
2005 - 238
2006 - 22
2007 - 749
2008 - 1,531
So why haven't MSM styled reporters been wringing their hands over what Israeli lives are worth during the last several years, prior to that time as well?
And then there are statements by Hamas's own leadership that are interesting, excerpt, emphasis added:These are people who deliberately kill their own children by turning them into human bombs -- and now they pretend to outrage because, having placed their children in harm's way in a theatre of war they have created, some of these children have unfortunately been killed. The fact is that Hamas have always specifically targeted Israeli and Jewish children and young people for murder – in accordance with their charter which declares their intention to kill every Jew in the world.
Details, details ...
The Moral Battleground, excerpt:
"... so now begins the second and most difficult stage. Inside Israel, there is both determination and dread as tens of thousands of Israel’s conscript army are called to the front. Untold numbers of these soldiers will lose their lives as the result not merely of the genocidal aims of Hamas (and its Iranian puppet-master) but also the indifference and pusillanimity towards Palestinian terror displayed by world governments over the past six decades of Israel’s fight for survival, along with the active encouragement of genocidal Islamists by leftists, Jew-haters, Muslims and useful idiots who were on such thuggish display yesterday in the co-ordinated demonstrations in British and other western cities."
The Real Agenda, excerpt:
BBC World TV has spent much of the day whining that Israel is refusing to allow the international media entry into Gaza despite an Israeli court ruling that it should allow the media in. This is amongst the reasons why it isn’t choosing to do so:[...]
And, in the west their message is being enthusiastically endorsed by Islamists, the far left and the usual useful idiots – and with not a peep of protest from anyone else at such genocidal displays. Jihad Watch reports that in the Netherlands, anti-Israel demonstrators have once again been chantingReminiscent of Fort Lauderdale, FL recently.
And less explicitly, reminiscent of the United Nations.
You asked a moral question ("Whose lives are more valuable?")
You gave a legal-political answer ("State interests, social contracts, and treaties").
In other words, you didn't even answer your own question.
Elliot123, I am referring to the same bodies of laws that were enforced in the Nuremberg trials, when Nazis were prosecuted and, in some instances, sentenced to death for crimes against humanity.
If you really want a primer on international law, I recommend you start with Grotius, and work your way forward. I suspect you do not, however.
This argument makes it impossible to retaliate against anyone who uses human shields. The appropriate blame for the death of human shields lies on the people who hide behind them, thus risking their lives.
As someone asked earlier in this thread, the real question is whether Hamas values Palestinian lives? If they did, why on Earth would they store munitions in or near schools, mosques, etc.?
There is no evidence that Israel is targeting Gazan civilians, only that they are dying in large numbers. The latter does not establish the former.
What an absurd argument. It would be much easier on Israel if they were intending to kill civilians. The reality is that, like the US military, Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid civilian casualties to the point of great risk to their own soldiers. This has less to do with altruism, but political reality.
We also can't be naive; militaries don't exist without a supporting civilian population to fill the ranks, feed them, arm them and give them a reason to fight.
Nothing like making an argument with complete ignorance of history behind you. The Palestinian situation was not created by Israel, nor the British before them, it was created by none other than the Ottoman Empire, the vestiges of which are causing problems in the Mediterranean and Middle East to this day.
The 1967 war was one of the Arabs making. They had the chance to stop and chose to not do so. This is the folly and conceit of the Arabs and Palestinians. The only reason that Gaza isn't a successful territory/country is because the Palestinian leadership has chosen not to make it so.
Why do you suppose Israel's actions in trying to minimize Palestinian casualties, such as they are, is just a sham for maintaining US funding?
Assuming arguendo that the Palestinians are just in trying to defeat Israel and putting aside the effectiveness of the tactics, would you then support Palestinian terrorism against Israeli civilians? After all, "militaries don't exist without a supporting civilian population to fill the ranks, feed them, arm them and give them a reason to fight."
If someone doesn't buy the logic that drops 1 ton bombs on an apartment building and calls all the civilians "collateral damage" would they be justified in retaliating against enemy civilians?
Except, of course, for the Gazans. They could have tried to form a peaceful society, run their schools, markets and other institutions just like any small state. They could have ignored Israel, especially after Israel pulled out of Gaza several years ago. But instead, they have chosen, and continue to choose to mount attacks against Israel knowing that eventually Israel will respond militarily, just like any sovereign would. And in that response, whatever progress they have made in the past few years will be wiped out as their institutions are destroyed and they have to start over.
At some point the Palestinians are going to have to take responsibility for their own plight. They can choose peaceful coexistence under current borders (or thereabouts), or they can continue to fight and live in the misery that results.
What has all of the terrorism gotten them after 60 years? Their borders are smaller now than in 1948. They are poorer now than in 1967. They are more backward, relatively speaking, than most arab or middle eastern states, even though in the not-too-distant past they were approximately equal in many measures of quality of life to Israel, Jordan, Turkey, et. al. Even putting aside the morality of terrorism, you have to question Palestinian tactics just based on efficacy. Isn't the definition of insanity continuing to pursue the same course over and over again, expecting a different result?
I can understand how there would be bitterness. Especially considering that Royalty in another land dumped their defeated relatives upon people who defeated then so they could rule them. Personally, I don't have any problem with the Jewish people, but I do have issues with how Israel does react. I am concerned about each life, and the continuance of all those lives... However... Based upon your assessments, I can't completely disagree. So I have an everyone wins policy.
Destroy Israel, Destroy Gazza, and Destroy any Areas nearby where they could be camping out, but do it in one swift indiscriminate attack. No suffering, No more conflict, just do the dang humanist thing, and get it over with already. Besides, that's how it is suppose to end, right?
A Government is created in order to protect the rights of the people within assuming the Government was formed by people absent of being conquered. Because of a failure somewhere in the legal system, most Law Students have no idea that a Constitution is governed by a Science of Law, that which is "natural" and that which declares truth. Any legislative act contrary to a declared Constitution is by definition false. Can you act in a way contrary to law without breaking that law? How could you possibly claim something is allowable when doing so would require a new Constitution?
What Constitutes an Evil Man? If a written Constitution clearly states the makings of an Evil Man, an amendment can add clarification, and amendments can be deemed unconstitutional, but how can a clause making up a Constitution be contrary to itself? It can't be. Lost Knowledge hurts everyone, and I have a little bit more.
I didn't realize until just now, but the Bush Family ran across my family line in some research I had been doing for Geneology. (Thankfully a Branch that doesn't contaminate my blood.) In 1800, the Bush Family came to America (or around the time) escaping political persecution, and without mentioning specifics, just referred to it as "The Fatherland" which was common for the Ottoman Empire. It is not uncommon for Royal families to get revenge several generations after the fact, but knowing full well that Prescott Bush ran the bank that had personal controlling interest in Auschwitz during WWII, and the contraversey with $$ that should have gone to survivors rather than his kids, (release in 1980 when G H Bush was VP) and that the current congress seems more Aristocratic than ever, as well as Standard Oils contributions to the Nazi Party... Sure makes you think if the world might just be out to destroy you.
Just to be clear, If I had to choose any side, it would never be G.W. Bush, since his assault was purely for personal gain (vengeance) against Saddam. On 9/11, the United States became a victim of terror... That doesn't excuse what we did to the Iraqi people, nor what we did in afghanistan. Both missions will always be a failure. Not because of how it was executed, but because it was executed. None of the actions in the Middle East are any true example of Justice. And while I wish I could say I support them, I cannot because they neglected their first duty, and that was the Constitution. If you give an oath to protect something, it's best to know as much as you can about it, so you know what is defined as a danger to it. Right now, it's every single person in Congress, including the Constitutional Scholar that isn't really.
What has terrorism gotten israel? A state. They were in no position to fight the English Army. What has terrorism gotten the Palestinians? Autonomy. They wouldn't have gotten to Oslo 1 by singing we shall overcome and asking politely for their rights. 48 and 67 were wars, and the lesson to be learned from them is when the other side is stronger asymmetrical warfare is the way to go.
Note that in response to the Israeli Defence Ministry calling up Gazans to tell them to get away from targets, the late Sheikh Yerbouti (or whatever his name was, may it be blotted out like he was) perfected the strategy of having Hamas rush women and babies to the target.
To whom does it make sense for Hamas to improve its use of human body armor? Do they have to deploy their "fighters" wearing infants for it to become clear that encouraging the use of human body armor is grotesque? Or would that not do it?
Um, no. It simply makes it impossible to avoid taking responsibility by asserting that civilians weren't killed deliberately.
Sometimes governments has to take actions that deliberately kill people. Whether those killings are justifiable under any particular legal or moral analysis can be debated, but I think it is misleading to evade responsibility by asserting that the killings were simply an accident.
I disagree. They don't think it is a proper moral principle. They think it's a tool which can be used against Israel. Otherwise, they have not the slightest interest in it.
In fact, given certain circumstances, they'd justify the reverse.
"It's not immoral to blow up a kid's party at McDonalds. It's about land reform." Rough paraphrase of an acquaintance when traveling in El Salvador in 1987. But, were I to track this nutcase down, I have no doubt he'd be insisting on the lay version of proportionality, at most. If it looks as if it can handicap Israel.
You presume too much good (but erroneous) faith.
My law school certainly failed to teach me this.
With the stench of death in Gaza becoming overpowering, who (beside the NYT) wants to tackle a tough issue like the role that the upcoming Israeli elections and the departure of the cheerleaders in Washington D.C. play in the destruction?
Or rather, since Hamas is incapable of inflicting a disproportionate amount of casualties upon the Israelis, it's really not possible to discuss it in the reverse. Since far more Palestinians have died in decades of conflict, it's really quite silly to talk about proportionality except as applied to Israel. And what you are referring to with the rest of your comment is the justification for the use of force, not proportionality.
OK. What specific law? Enacted by whom? Obligating Israel how?
Consider further that Hamas' most valuable weapons are dead civilians and that they therefore connive at the deaths of their own citizens.
Colton and Palmer (History of the Western World) refer, in talking about Balkan independence movements, to zealots who facilitated the deaths of their own people at the hands of the Turks "to emphasize their suffering in the eyes of Europe". Not a new story, nor one that can be dismissed by gasps of faux disbelief.
trad.
The McDonalds birthday party in question was destroyed in order to destabilize the society. The perps figured that the particular horror would be particularly effective. That's a different order of business from trying to avoid civilian casualties when the target surrounds itself with civilians.
As you know.
False equivalence.
Really, really false.
Actually, the US is the largest contributor to the support of non-citizens. Our overseas military expenditures allow other nations free (or reduced cost) defense and free navigation. What do you suppose those two services would be worth on the open market?
I don't often agree with you on political matters and I take no particular "side" in this conflict, but I think this is an outstanding essay, and really the only reasonable position one can take.
So let me make the point that should not have to be made:
The terrs would not have blown up the burger joint if the kids had not been there. It was the kids who were the target, not idle deep fryers.
The Israelis would shoot at a gun position even if there were no kids there, and with a sense of relief, if only because that's one opportunity for Hamas PR that Hamas won't have.
Everybody knows the difference and I hope nobody will pretend not to.
(2) The International Law Commission, 1950.
(3) link
Actually, if this is the real reason for Israeli relief, then there isn't all that much of a difference.
What authority does the ILC have to enact anything? What authority does the UN have? Are all nations subject to the codifications of the ILC and UN? Why?
http://www.un.org/law/ilc/
You can imagine the wrinkled brows and snorts of disbelief.
Sorry. I don't see you name on the list of the twenty blog principals. Is that an oversight?
But, it's a simple question. Does the ILC have the authrity to enact anything? The original question asked who enacted "bodies of laws that were enforced in the Nuremberg trials."
PLR notes the ILC articulates. OK. That appears to agree with its own mission statement. So,who enacts "bodies of laws that were enforced in the Nuremberg trials?" Under what authority? And what makes Israel subject to them?
Perhaps some 2L can tell us?
Abbas and Fatah won't need tanks to suppress Hamas after Israel's campaign is done -- assuming Israel is able to resist international pressure long enough to carry the campaign to conclusion. Every Hamas fighter Israel kills makes Fatah stronger and paves the way for Fatah's reconquest of Gaza.
Unfortunately Palestinian tanks are banned under Oslo.
"Unfortunately"? Good lord, ever since the Israeli wall went up, the Palestinians have done nothing but engage in civil war and try to kill each other. Why in the world would you consider it "fortunate" to throw tanks into that mix?
The issue is, "How many non-combatants is it worth to successfully kill a combatant in time of conflict? ...and, does that ratio change when the combatants are terrorists, instead of regular uniformed military bearing arms openly and only engaging legitimate military targets themselves?"
These numbers are not perfect, but allow me to recommend:
- A 10-to-1 ratio of regular military combatants to unintentional non-combatant casualties is acceptable;
- A 5-to-1 ratio of irregular combatants is acceptable, which is to say that it's worth twice as much risk to civilian lives to ensure the death of an irregular as it is to ensure the death of regular military who "follow the rules";
- A 3-to-1 ratio is acceptable if the irregular combatants are not just "irregulars" but absolutely deplorable; e.g., Al Qaeda terrorists who saw heads off captives on-camera and bomb their own co-religionists in hopes of sparking civil war.
We must keep in mind that the whole notion of the "laws of war" exists to limit, not encourage, the most egregiously uncivilized kinds of warfare.
As I write, estimates are that Israel has managed to kill 3 Hamas militants for every 1 accidental non-combatant casualty.
Good for them. That's about right. It's worth it: Justice in warfare requires these vermin be removed from humanity, and the rules should be permissive in allowing regular forces to effect that removal.
To the degree we disadvantage "regular military" with crazily perfectionistic expectations, we encourage and subsidize terrorism as a more effective alternative.
Only with such a perspective can we, in the long-term, reduce the attractiveness of terrorism to those who would otherwise consider wielding it.
The figures I saw, prior to the ground campaign were roughly 3 confirmed combatants to every confirmed non-combatant. Unfortunately, the issue was that to these four, there were an additional 2 who may or may not have been combatants. So this means a figure somewhere between 1:1 and 5:1. My guess is that the shelling will increase the percentage of non-combatant deaths substantially.
@ Ariel, there is a requirement not to use civilians as a human shield, but this is much more limited than your assertion that combatants must be segregated from non-combatants. Regardless, if one party commits a war crime, it does not absolve the other side from any war crimes that it may commit.
Yes, it does. Or, rather, when you violate the Laws of War you lose their protection, so killing every civilian you're hiding behind isn't a war crime.
Following the Laws of War has costs. The way you get countries to accept those costs is that following the Laws also has benefits. If you give the benefits to those who don't pay the costs, you destroy any reason to follow the Laws.
IOW, "Ralph", you, and people like you, are the biggest enemies of the Geneva Conventions, the Laws of War, and civilization, out there. Hamas and its civilians can have the benefits of the Laws of War, and be protected from "War Crimes", when, and only when, they start following the laws themselves.
Gee, I don't know, by not hiding inside of schools, or people's homes? I know, Hamas can go to all those settlements the Israelis dismantled, and set up there.
Of course, once they stop hiding behind women and children they'll be immediately slaughtered by the IDF, since the IDF, unlike Hamas, is actually competent. So what? Hamas doesn't have the "right" to win, any more than I have the right to go out and rob people so that I can have more money than I can legally obtain.
Think of all those little Palestinian children-terrorists!
Well, let's see. When was the last time you complained about Hamas hiding behind those children, and making them legitimate targets of war? You haven't?
Then don't waste our time by pretending that you give a damn about them. because clearly you don't. All you care about is having another excuse to attack Israel.
He's not the only one. They think they've got others fooled.
Are you backing away from that?
David gets to make his choices, and we get to draw our own conclusions about his lack of interest in discussing US interests as well as Israel's rights.
(Having just stumbled on them myself) I would note that the new J Street group appears to be providing a useful function in gathering Jewish and other opinions on both US interests and on long-term Israeli interests.
Ed Morrissey has given them this plug, by quoting David Schraub of Moderate Voice:
Schraub is basing his world view on the presumption that the Confrontation States and their wackjob militants can be talked out of wanting to destroy Israel entirely.
He might not be exactly right, here.
But his suggestions, like everybody elses', consist of saying not to pay attention to what the terrorists and their supporting states say, and that, this time, giving them another bite will surely work, unlike the last half-dozen times.
Eventually, rational people can find room to disagree, based on things like reality.
But one gets tired of fighting all the time. All the time. Never ends. Eventually, rationalizing doing something which looks easier becomes easier. The catastrophic result down the road is easily dismissed. Mostly by demonizing those who keep pointing at it.
The following links should give you the information you asked for - at least it seemed like a request.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? cid=1221489040961&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
(space inserted after "?" to conform with 60 letter rule)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=89939
The system I was refering to was the Iron Fist. The last I saw of it was a demonstration that worked against an RPG in January 2008.
"Not that I'm sure it makes any difference."
It makes a differnce if Israel's aim is really to protect its civilians. Your comment above betrays the possibility that you might be as cynical about this claim as I am, but that you subscribe to a differnt set assumptions than I do.
I get the impression that the closest you have been to a war is at the movies, with popcorn and coke in hand. If you have any experience with martial arts, your sensei would have taught you that self-defense is self-defense only when all other options are no longer viable.
So my point stands: If Israel were truly concerned with saving Israeli lives, they have the technology to do it. The capability is there, and the obstacles, both in finances and the choice of systems, seem to be purely political.
The Palestinian rockets could even be viewed as a chance to enhance these capabilities, but the prevailing politics decree otherwise.
Are we starting to see a pattern here?
For that matter, so was letting Hamas run in the elections.
www.longwarjournal.org
The site includes two posts today on the tactical situation.
Obviously this is both a guess and a vast oversimplification. But none of Israel's neighbors is calling for its destruction, and Hamas certainly has no such ability.
his suggestions, like everybody elses', consist of saying not to pay attention to what the terrorists and their supporting states say, and that, this time, giving them another bite will surely work, unlike the last half-dozen times.
Really? Or are they based in looking at the failures of Israeli military interventions, the failure of its unilateral and unnegotiated withdrawal from Gaza, the failure of its harsh embargo to force Hamas from power, the failure of its long-time policy to prefer to deal with the corrupt Arafat/PLO and its Fatah successors over Hamas (which actually provides social services), and the consequences of those failures throughout the region, and for the US and Europe?
There are differences in interests between all of the "Confrontation States", their leaders and their citizens; a realist notes this and assesses the differences, the motivations for their behavior and their ability to put words into action.
But one gets tired of fighting all the time. All the time. Never ends.
Yes, one gets tired. From the US side, maybe a positive step would be to stop subsidizing so many sides, and let decision-makers bear a little bit more of the full costs of their own actions.
Another course of action is to realize that, where you cannot utter defeat your opponent, violence simple begets more.
Israeli terrorism and legal expert Amos N. Guiora had this to say last week:
Eventually, rationalizing doing something which looks easier becomes easier. The catastrophic result down the road is easily dismissed.
Care to clarify what you're hinting at?
You have already indicated you have little interest in dicussing the cost and benefits to the US of Israel's actions, but I'm hoping you'll shares your views on ius ad bello aspects, and perhaps even the morality and wisdom, of Israel's actions.
I'm also curious what you think of the rather detailed commentary provided by former Israeli official Daniel Levy (who now seems to have the ear of Democrats, as Senior Fellow and Director of the Middle East Initiative at the New America Foundation and a Senior Fellow and Director of the Prospects for Peace Initiative at The Century Foundation).
Hamas has no such capability. Doesn't stop them from trying.
Iran has been quite specific and does have the capability, or will shortly. Obama's election guarantees Iran's nuclear weapons program will go on without effective opposition. Iran may be destroyed in the process, but they Mad Mullahs have said that's just fine with them.
I'm hinting at the position that getting tired of fighting all the time leads one to make irrational choices based on wishful thinking. Pointing out that the can has been kicked down the road a couple of years and will be worse than ever is not welcome. People who do that are called war mongers and baby killers and, in this case, Zionist Christian fundies anxious to begin the Rapture or fascist nutcases or any other thing useful for diverting attention from their arguments. Calling them that, and calling calling them that a job, is better than facing the possibility they're right.
The recent slaughter was finessed by Hamas, as you know. Problem for you is that we know you're smart enough to know.
You can't plausibly claim ignorance.
Okay, Tokyo, I think we get the picture.
I think we get the picture.
By the way, are you related to Tokyo Rose? Ever think of changing your name to Kan Yunis Rose?
TT thinks he's fooling somebody. Anybody.
Not hardly.
Richard, you're still hinting, it seems.
WHO is "getting tired of fighting all the time" and may "make irrational choices"? What are those irrational choices? Are you talking about Israel improving its relations with Palestinians and Lebanese (and the rest of the world) by bombing Iran?
From a broader perspective, I would certainly agree that those caught up in fighting have a very difficult time getting past self-justifications and tit-for-tat reactions to actually move past fighting to productive relationships.
A complicating factor is the banal evil that our "leaders" capture and keep power by posturing against and raising fear over all of those other evil people - whether "existential" threats abroad or backstabbing, country-hating people who disagree with government policy at home.
Pointing out that the can has been kicked down the road a couple of years and will be worse than ever is not welcome. People who do that are called war mongers and baby killers and, in this case, Zionist Christian fundies
I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't understand your precise point - I've been suggesting that we shouldn't be kicking this can down the road any further as well, by funding the governments that keep themselves in power by playing political football with Palestinians.
TT thinks he's fooling somebody. Anybody. Not hardly.
Are you a mind reader, Richard? I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand your point. I certainly don't understand all the ins and outs of this problem, or profess to. I am trying to understand it better though - and certainly am NOT trying to "fool" anybody.
My remarks have been rather straightforward; please feel free to argue with me and to correct what you see as my mistakes. Surely with your superior knowledge and insights that shouldn't be so hard to attempt, even if my head remains thick. Do you lack sufficient energy for such an honest effort?
The recent slaughter was finessed by Hamas, as you know. Problem for you is that we know you're smart enough to know.
You can't plausibly claim ignorance.
Which slaughter, Richard? The UN school? The house into which IDF solders had herded an extended family? Or the whole bombing and ground attack?
Hamas fired rockets, yes, and hides itself in an urban population. But did Hamas finesse the fact that there are 1.5 million people crammed into an area twice the size of DC? Sure Hamas is distasteful to deal with, but does that mean that Israel is NOT puling the trigger on its own attacks? Is it merely a blind automaton, acting reflexively and thus without moral (or other) responsibility?
By the way, I just ran into this interesting study (by Nancy Kanwisher, Johannes Haushofer &Anat Biletzki in Huff Po) that indicates that it has been Israel that has by far been responsible for breaking ceasefires with Hamas; does anyone have any more truthy information than this?
Does this tell us anything about who is "finessing slaughter", Richard?
It is of course somewhat spoiled by your childish and dishonorable ad hom attempt to imply from account name that my comments here are somehow treasonous. Good job.
I think we get the picture.
Do you? My point, of course, regarding the failures of Israeli actions was not to suggest that only Israel is at fault, but the rather straightforward one that Israel controls and is responsible for its own actions and ought to be considering the consequences of past actions when determining what to do next. Do you disagree? If you just wanted to whine, I understand.
Ever think of changing your name to Kan Yunis Rose?
Again, you honor me, this time by presuming knowledge I don't have. Can you explain your reference?
I diagree with Bacevich in one regard: it appears that Israel's long-term intention as to Gaza may be that, by blocking all Palestinian access to Israel but surrendering the southern border, it can prevent a viable Palestinian state, turn Gaza into an Egyptian problem, and hope that misery and disorder (assisted by the blockade), will "encourage" Gazans to move towards more attractive places.
What you know is that the party which arranges to fight from among civilians is morally and legally responsible for what happens to them. That's Hamas. You are not dumb enough to think the fact that the Israelis are pulling the trigger on various weapons changes that.
You know it. We know it. We also know you know it, which is the sticking point.
The Israeli citizens are getting tired of fighting. They can, some of them, rationalize giving the crocodile one last bite after which everything will be dandy. Those who point out this won't work, has never worked, and that the crocodile's founding documents explicitly say it isn't part of the plan are demonized.
Another item you know.
But it does provide you with cover and the peace party with partisans in Israel.
Some years ago, a historian noted that Churchill and FDR were nicer people than Hitler and Stalin, but the latter were better war leaders.
That is to say, they held their nations to the fight in circumstances of unimaginable horror, prinicipally by inflicting unimaginable horror on the population to keep control. Churchill and FDR could not, said the historian, have done that.
The Arabs fighting Israel are in the position of Stalin and Hitler. They have the mechanisms to wear out the Israelis, who are a democracy, and (evil) mechanisms to keep their societies at the fight. They are aided by such as you.
This is quite simple and to pretend it's all unknown to you is nonsense.
The population distribution in Gaza puts civilians in the middle of the fight? So? That does not change Hamas' responsibility. They can start a fight or not. They chose to start one which, they knew, would get civilians killed because they know people like you use dead civilians as tools of debate.
If Hamas had a choice to fight someplace like Rommel and the Brits did in the Western Desert where there were no civilians, they would not do it. They need civilians for shelter and for propaganda points.
And Tokyo Tom thinks this is quite clever.
Yes, and I hope they learn from their experience in letting the rest of the world stop their legitimate military actions when they appear to be succeeding, thereby virtually guaranteeing further and greater carnage in the future when those who are dedicated to Israel's destruction have finished re-arming and reorganizing. Sadly, civilians on both sides, as well as Israel's citizen soldiers, will pay the price.
As for the Tokyo Rose reference, it was not to suggest disloyalty to the US but rather to suggest functioning as a source of fascist (or in this case Islamist) propaganda. Sorry for any confusion I created. Kan Yunis is a town in Gaza.
The balance of your comment is not worthy of response.
Richard, we are talking past each other if you only want to argue law and justification, when I am trying to discuss consequences.
As for morality, humans have a wonderful ability to conclude not only that they are absolutely right, but those they disagree with are evil. Something to do with our tribal nature, I think. FWIW, I evidently disagree with on the morality of the Israeli government`s actions here, as well with US support for it. Not that it can`t be justified. I offer no justifications for Hamas, and would argue with their supporters if any of them were here.
The Israeli citizens are getting tired of fighting. They can, some of them, rationalize giving the crocodile one last bite after which everything will be dandy.
Then perhaps they ought to consider telling their political leaders, who seems to enjoy fighting, particularly as it may help them get elected. They also don`t particularly want their citizens or the rest of the world to see what they do.
Those who point out this won't work, has never worked, and that the crocodile's founding documents explicitly say it isn't part of the plan are demonized.
By whom? Hardly in the US, certainly. And if it`s in Israel, that`s politics, but from my uninformed perspective it seems that it`s the doves and others who repeatly point out that Israel`s harsh tactics don`t work and have never worked who are toothless and demonized. Hey, but better demonized than to be a Palestinian, right?
The Arabs fighting Israel are in the position of Stalin and Hitler. They have the mechanisms to wear out the Israelis, who are a democracy, and (evil) mechanisms to keep their societies at the fight. ... This is quite simple and to pretend it's all unknown to you is nonsense.
Sorry, but this actually made me laugh. The Palestinians are comparatively powerless next to Israel, which has striven to keep them divided and ill-governed, and for decades the damage to persons by Palestinians has been something like a tenth or less of deaths/injuries inflicted by Israel. When you compare damage to property the differences are much greater. All that they have is a willingness to keep on fighting, which is hardly surprising. And yet it`s those bull-headed people who men, women and children are killed and homes and economies are wrecked by Israel are the sole evil ones? Good for you.
Tired Israel citizens ought to consider trying to persuade their government to take steps - other than the impossible of utterly defeating the Palestinians and removing them from Gaza, Israel and West Bank - that will encourage Palestinians to stop fighting. Dealing with Hamas and lifting the punitive embargo when Hamas had stopped firing for months might have been productive steps.
They are aided by such as you.
What - I`m aiding the evil ones? How, by trying to have a conversation with you and other mensch like Yankel?
The population distribution in Gaza puts civilians in the middle of the fight? So? That does not change Hamas' responsibility.
Have I argued it does? I simply think that they choose to fight in the conditions that Israel has placed them in is to be expected, and think that Israel`s actions are counterproductive. You want to play self-justification; I`m talking about steps forward. Heck, I read somewhere this week that even the folks in Sderout have signed petitions opposing the Israel air and ground attacks.
They can start a fight or not. They chose to start one which, they knew, would get civilians killed because they know people like you use dead civilians as tools of debate. (my emphasis)
That you can pony up jaw-droppingly offensive stuff like this in response to my comments is pretty startling and sad, Richard. It`s not honorable, civil or deserved. Both David Bernstein and the Pope, as well as a whole range of other well-intentioned and principled people "use dead civilians as tools of debate". Presumable you know that just war theory as well as international law is quite concerned with civilian deaths.
If Hamas had a choice to fight someplace like Rommel and the Brits did in the Western Desert where there were no civilians, they would not do it. They need civilians for shelter and for propaganda points. And Tokyo Tom thinks this is quite clever.
You just ooze slime, don`t you Richard? Because the US and other governments study asymetrical warfare, does that mean they favor it or think it clever? What, exactly, can you expect from Palestinians BUT asymetrical approaches, particularly in Gaza which has 1.5 million people in an area twice the size of DC? And how many times do I say that I don`t approve of Hamas`s behavior?
Nice try, Yankel. My point about Israel`s responsibility for its own behavior was straightforward and sandwiched between nothing; rather it was the bread. You`re the one who chooses the pathetic pity party that Israel`s behavior is dictated by others.
Yes, and I hope they learn from their experience in letting the rest of the world stop their legitimate military actions when they appear to be succeeding
More of the same pity stuff. Israel makes its own choices; that others (including in the US) have differing views and try to influence Israel`s decisions is to be expected. On the substance, I disagree with you, and think that Israel`s "legitimate military actions" will cost it and us dearly.
As for the Tokyo Rose reference, it was not to suggest disloyalty to the US but rather to suggest functioning as a source of fascist (or in this case Islamist) propaganda. Sorry for any confusion I created.
I see; I`m not a traitor, but a fascist or Islamist propagandist - apparently in any case not a well-intended person engaging in an exchange of views - and you apologize for my confusion!
Oh, you are just so clever AND charming, Yankel. Insincere apology of course not accepted. How do you rationalize your obviously ridiculous and ungentlemanly slurs? If you really don`t want a real conversation, is an honorable silence so difficult?
If you're not arguing law, but arguing consequences, you have a number of wars to consider. The losing sides took a hell of a lot of civilian casualties in WW II and, for example, Korea. The results of that were...?
Hamas does not have to fight. You know it. They choose to fight. You know it. Their choice gets civilians killed, which they know will happen. That means the whole thing is morally and legally on their shoulders. You know it.
Hamas may be powerless in conventional terms, but that's not the point. Hamas can keep doing what it's doing indefinitely, as can Iran, and Syria, without concern for war-weariness among their civilians. They have the mechanisms to keep it going. A percentage of the Israeli population is tired and easily manipulated into thinking that Hamas and Iran don't really mean what they say and things will be okay if we make this one last concession. Hamas doesn't have that problem.
I've worked with religious activists, none ranking as high as the Pope, and if there's a bunch more easily manipulated into kicking the can down the road, I haven't found it. And, habitually speaking in parable, hyperbole, metaphor, and bullshit, they can easily end up sounding like, say, Pat Buchanan. They have no concern for matters of right and wrong if they can get on the side of the one which is most effective at making itself out to be a victim.
Hmm. Sounds like liberals. So, although I respect the Pope for some of his other work, this is nonsense.
And you are justifying the use of human shields. That has no basis in the Just War Doctrine, nor in international law. You claim to think of consequences, but as Yankev and others have said, the unfortunate consequences we've seen before are a result of stopping too soon, mostly due to the double standard applied by people like TT.
Oh, yeah. Are you not using dead civilians as tools of debate?
Pointing it out is wrong? Nope. Busted. Deal.
In matters of assymetric warfare, if Hamas merely survives to make a statement from a studio in, say, Syria, they will look like victors who drove out the hated Zionists. And, having withdrawn, the Israelis will look like losers. Therefore, the IDF has a job to do whihc is more involved than an "incursion". I hope they know it.
Assymetric warfare can only succeed if the other side is less brutal. As has been pointed out, the Russians dealt with it, and nobody in Tibet is even thinking of it. If you can convince the IDF to stop too soon, you win. So does Hamas.
So, whatever your ostensible motivation, you and Hamas are on the same side effectively.
You and Yankel both appear fundamentally immature, as instead of responding to my points about Israeli responsibility for their own actions, including a consideration about likely consequences and ways to break the cycle of violence, you insist on casting my remarks as a defense of Hamas, attacking strawmen (like twisting my reference to just war theorists and the Pope into support for religious activists) and insisting on my lack of bona fides.
You are both pathetic, insincere and inartful dodgers. Self-justifying and self-righteous guys like you are just a step away from those whom you hate them most, and are hardly true friends of Israel. Poor you, and poor Israel, forever "forced" to contribute to a cycle of violence that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for Israel and its neighbors to live in peace.
Now it`s time for people like me to take a break a wash up again from dealing with people like you. Toodles.
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